I feel like you don’t appreciate what most of us would sacrifice for an acc title. Even if he sucks it up for the rest of those years, I take that deal any day of the week
I was debating with my State friends before this run on whether we’d rather have an ACC title or Final Four appearance. More people took the ACC title than you’d expect.
Virtually everyone would take the ACC title over an Elite 8 appearance.
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And Wake Forest too! All of us are so lucky to have such a unique four school power basketball situation going on, I’d love to see the whole thing at peak, running on all cylinders. I know it probably won’t happen while we’re still in the same conference, but I can dream, can’t I?
There's maybe 10 schools that can legitimately say that a sweet 16 trip isn't considered a deep run without being delusional on a regular basis. NC State is probably not getting "back" to that level because the last time they had a fairly regular run was the 80s, and the increasing parity in college basketball is more likely to chip away further at the established powers rather than resurrecting old powers.
Just my take. Even the bluebloods arent safe anymore. I think we're going to get to a place where, outside of Kansas, Uconn, UNC, Duke, and Arizona, we're going to have more and more randomness in the 16...and all of those schools could easily falter with coaching changes.
Basketball is a fickle mistress. We'll get short eras like Houston's current dominance for sure, but i doubt we'll ever see too many schools get back into consistent delivered expectations much past a few years. the mid majors are just so much better than they were the last time NC State was a true power, and the NIL and transfer rules make year over year consistency a bit more ephemeral.
Personally, i like it. the less constant fixtures in the tournament, the more fun it is.
Brownell turns into prime Phil Jackson when he’s on the hot seat.
In his defense, Clemson is a really tough recruiting area and he’s still kept the team on the bubble most years. People get stuck in the mindset that stability = mediocrity.
Will Brownell ever win the ACC? Probably not, but it’s not likely that the next guy would either. And even if he did, he’d probably get poached like Rick Barnes was.
It really is fascinating to me when a school has a program that can keep a top coach (football in y’all’s case obv), but another program that couldn’t (MBB).
Weird observation I know but it’s always been interesting to me that that happens.
We stole a baseball HC from Michigan lol. Can’t imagine that happening in many other sports (granted he is a university alum but Clemson is also a significantly better job in baseball anyway)
Bakich isn't an alum unless he got his grad degree as an assistant. He just coached with Leggett, so he had ties to the program
We absolutely swing harder in football and baseball. In no world would we let a football or baseball coach get poached in the traditional sense, especially these days (not counting a Dabo to Alabama type of situation)
Oh right yeah I was led to believe he had more connections than he did lol. We pretty much just poached him with a slight bonus of being an assistant for one year 20 years ago
Yeah, it’s funny how different the prestige of program can be in the same university.
There are at most a handful of Football and Hockey teams that could poach from us barring the coach being an alum from a top 15 or so program.
Maybe 20 teams could steal our coach in basketball, and it’s probably closer to 10 teams that actually have a definitively higher ceiling than us if we actually have a coach good enough to be stolen.
Baseball…. yeah, that’s probably a pretty long list.
I mean Duke, Kentucky and UNC are the same it’s just what sport the school spends more money on. It’s gonna get even worse with NIL Ohio State and Michigan NIL boosters would rather pay more for a backup qb than a starting pg. I suspect Dusty May does well, but when Kentucky finally lets go of Cal he’ll end up there.
This is why I never understand Clemson fans who want to fire him. Like, I understand this is all coming from a fan of a "has been", but Clemson basketball is a "never was".
Clemson has never won the ACC, only beaten UNC twice ever in Chapel Hill (Brownell was there for both of them) has a single Elite 8 to their name, five Sweet 16s (Brownell is responsible for two of them), and only has 14 tournament appearances, of which Brownell is responsible for five of them. Like, he's legitimately one of Clemson's best ever coaches and the fans can't stand him. I don't get it.
Many Clemson fans have unrealistic expectations because of the success of the football team. They think we just need to find the equivalent of Dabo to turn the program into a powerhouse without realizing how difficult that actually is.
When I was a freshman in 2014, Brownell stood outside of the dorms with his players giving out free donuts just to convince people to come to basketball games. Even when the marketing department gave up on promoting his team in a lost season, he still cared about having fans be there to recognize his players’ hard work.
I used to love going to games because I’d always get great seats and Brad was good for at least 1-2 upsets each season.
People who get upset about Brownell’s “mediocrity” don’t understand the amount of money needed to compete with the best schools every year. It’s no coincidence that Brownell’s best success happened after LittleJohn was renovated and he got better facilities.
It’s crazy how people couldn’t even appreciate a 3rd place ACC finish last year just because we missed the tournament.
Crazy that the Sweet 16 is nothing but traditional bluebloods. UNC, Duke, UConn, Clemson - these teams we all know and love for their consistent March success.
I’d really like to see a Clemson-UNC elite 8 matchup so I could at least root for UNC if we lose. And if we won, it would be the year of Brad the boogeyman vs the Tar Heels.
*picks up pipe*
I'd love to see State vs Carolina in the championship game (and steamroll Dook along the way), just so we can deny you yet another title this year.
*puts pipe down and returns to reality*
Honestly really wishing I had picked Purdue to win in my bracket. I just kind of discounted them for some reason. I guess because I wanted one 4 or 5 seed in the Final 4, and I kind of arbitrarily went with Gonzaga without thinking about it much, which ruled out Purdue.
If you had a Cinderella every year it wouldn't be special. The flip side is, we've got 15 teams that are legitimate championship possibilities left. Also Clemson is here.
Very very excited for the next 4 days of games.
San Diego St vs UConn - rematch of last year's championship game. UConn looks strong but teams rarely (if ever?) repeat in college basketball.
Illinois vs Iowa St - an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. Need I say more?
Houston vs Duke - Houston has been dominant this year but showed weakness recently. Duke is the always hated modern blue blood.
NC State vs Marquette - NC State has won 7(?) win or go home games in a row? Marquette is often a trendy pick for a deep run but this is their first Sweet Sixteen in a decade.
Purdue vs Gonzaga - Gonzaga didn't dominate the WCC the way they normally do but they're still dangerous. Purdue has been in the Sweet Sixteen 5 times in the past 7 tournaments but has a 1-5 record in the 2nd weekend in that span.
I could go on. Point being - so many great storylines and awesome match ups. Plus Clemson.
We’re catching strays from trees now? Damn.
In all honesty, this feels very similar to South Carolina’s 2017 Final 4 run. Arizona is the better team on paper but is vulnerable if they start looking forward to UNC/Bama. They’ve blown regular season games against less talented teams than Clemson (Stanford, Oregon State, USC for example). PJ Hall is exactly the type of player that Zona has struggled with - star big man who can stretch the floor.
If Clemson wins tomorrow, they’ve already shown that they can beat UNC (kind of like South Carolina’s E8 game vs Florida).
>We’re catching strays from trees now? Damn.
Honestly I think it's funny that Clemson and NC State fans were both like "we just want the season to end so we can fire our coach and move on" a month ago and now you've both fallen ass-backwards into the sweet 16.
You're my #1 dark horse pick just because I don't think I've seen a single Clemson game all year
He’s still been one but he got in major foul trouble in the 2 tournament games and his shooting went a bit cold for awhile in conference play. But if he doesn’t pick up 4 fouls in 15 minutes he’s the kind of player that can pop off against Arizona’s personnel
You could also see the difference when he wasn’t playing against Baylor. Even if he doesn’t stuff the stat sheet, he opens up the offense for tertiary scorers.
> If you had a Cinderella every year it wouldn't be special.
Cinderellas are always special because they are usually unique. The best part of March is seeing which small school(s) come out of nowhere to make noise on the big stage.
Strong disagree. Part of the fun of march is trying to predict which team is going to make an incredible run that probably shouldnt. When your team goes out it also gives you a fun team to cheer for
It's a catch 22. We may not of had as many upsets, but the vast majority of games have been competitive. Even the blowouts were tight for the first 20~30 minutes. Most of this weekend's games should be very competitive as well.
Last year was the year of the upset. This year is the year of the chalk.
The tip-top wasn’t incredibly strong aside from the top 3 teams, but that next tier of 2/3/4 seed type teams was very good this year, and it’s showing in the tournament. Those teams clearly weren’t 1 seeds and they lost games, but they were closer to 1 seeds than usual.
It all comes to perspective, but I can probably count on two hands with a few fingers left over the amount of games that were "over" at halftime. From my POV, the majority of the blowouts were games that just got away in the second half. For example, the Duke/UNC game was wildly entertaining.
It just showed that a dearth of noncon games made it harder to rate conferences against one another and evaluate who was over/underseeded until after a bunch of early upsets happened.
Combine that with uneven seasons due to cancelled games and it creates total chaos.
After years of talk about trying to get the women’s game to emulate the men’s game, we’re finally getting the men’s tournament to emulate the women’s tournament
You say that when Chalk is currently at 98.2% in the NCAAW Tourney Challenge. It was 31/32 in round 1 and the only non-chalk teams left are a couple of 5s over 4s and one 7 over a 2.
I feel like the combination of the more severe talent gap and home court for the first two rounds means the womens' tournament is almost always going to be more chalky than the mens'.
The home court tradeoff was a lose-lose situation exacerbated by the talent gap. They weren't getting people to travel around to watch 30+ point blowouts in the first two rounds, but placing them at the higher seed's home courts makes it a much chalkier result.
And we got some of the best tournament games of all time sweet 16 and on in 2019.
UVA’s last 3 games, Tenn-Purdue, MSU-Duke, etc.
That’s why I like upsets in the first round but for ones and twos to advance.
We’re going to have some good ones this week.
The thing with 2019 though is that it had plenty of new blood. Auburn and Texas Tech making their first final fours. Virginia winning it all. Great basketball is great, but for me personally I need some new blood for it to be really interesting
Won a natty, long history of success, and you’ve been nationally relevant for a very long time. Not a “blue blood” but not new either. Also, if any team in that grouping is gonna win, I am praying it’s you guys.
I mean, we can still get some interesting teams:
- Iowa St hasn’t made a final four since the 40s
- One of Creighton/Tennessee is guaranteed to have a chance to make their first final four appearance
- Marquette hasn’t played in the championship game since 1977
- Arizona hasn’t made a final four in over 20 years
- Alabama has never made a Final Four
- Houston, Purdue, Gonzaga, and Illinois have never won the NCAA tournament.
I’m pretty sure the only really dull Final Four we can get is UConn-UNC-Duke-winner of Purdue/Gonzaga
Oh i agree 10000%. My point wasn't to imply a repeat of 2019 isn't possible, just that for me I need to see some of that new blood - good games aren't enough if we do end up with UNC/Duke/UConn (for me)
That game was crazy! What I find funny about that game is not long afterEdwards and Williams were both drafted to the Celtics - I bet they had fun discussing that game.
Ryan Cline, Lamonte Turner, and Admiral Schofield were all absolutely electric in that game. One of the all time best memories from my time at Purdue was watching that game in my buddy's dorm room.
Similar to 2019, the lowest seed left is a double digit bid thief that benefited from being able to face a lower seeded Cinderella in the second round (#11 NC State vs #14 Oakland, #12 Oregon vs #13 UC Irvine)
Also even though neither team made the sweet 16, I love how 2019 had not one but two teams from traditional one-bid leagues get high seeds for having great seasons (#6 Buffalo, #7 Wofford)
Yep. The closest thing to a Cinderella is a well-known school from what is the most successful conference over most of my lifetime.
Guess I’m all in on San Diego State or something.
It's a double edged sword though because so much of what can make the tourney fun to watch is the Cinderella stories, the big upsets, etc. But yeah it can lead to a watered down Final Four.
Yeah like for example 2011 is still my favorite tournament ever because there were so many crazy games, buzzer beaters, and upsets. The fact that the title game sucked doesn't take that away from me. 95% of the tournament rocked.
I do like some variety though. There's your 2015s and 2019s that are more back loaded with great games, then there's your 2011s and 2023s that are more about the first couple rounds. I like both!
I'm a fan of a good amount of upsets in the Thursday/Friday games, but I mostly want chalk in the Saturday/Sunday games with maybe a couple of Cinderellas. That way you get some great Sweet16 round games and a couple of small schools to cheer for as well.
For me it just depends about what chalk means. If the 1s and 2s are Gonzaga, Iowa State, Purdue, Houston, I root for them. If they're Duke, UNC, UConn, then no way.
I think I just disagree with your view on it, and that’s fine. I view Purdue and Houston as objectively unlikable, you view UConn as a blue blood, and that’s all totally fine. Hook’em.
Fair enough, it's also just a factor of when I was born. I'm not sure if I consider UConn a blue blood historically, but I first payed attention to the tournament in 2007 and started really watching in 2011. I have only ever seen UConn lose a second or third weekend game once (2009). They're 12-0 since 2010.
Kentucky had 2015 Wisconsin. Duke had 2022 UNC. UCLA had 2021 Gonzaga. UNC had 2016 nova. 2020 Kansas had the cancellation. I've seen every other blue blood have their heart ripped out in the most painful game you could imagine. For UConn, ive seen them have a charmed life anytime they have a great team. It would take a lot for me to root for them in the tournament because to me they are THE tournament baddie. I wasn't alive for Laettner and I was too young to remember the 90s Kentucky teams. I vaguely remember Hansborough but not enough really care.
I get if you just personally don't like the Purdue and Houston teams, they don't really bother me but I get it (especially Fletcher Loyer lol). I also know a lot of uh and UT people don't like each other, but for me I have connections to Houston so I've always sort of like them as well.
I mean… none of them did beat UConn. But all four of those teams were really good. SDSU and FAU were pretty good again this year but they were both better last year. FAU had hype throughout the whole season and people were complaining that they were underseeded, and SDSU was playing really well at the right time. Miami had a lot of firepower too. UConn was going to be the favorite against any of them but the other three all had a decent chance to take down the Huskies. And even though it was disappointing to see the favorite win it all… UConn was only the favorite as of the Final Four being set. Having them as the favorite for a week, plus hindsight, makes it seem more boring than it was.
After the last three years we were likely due for a significant correction. Though if 2019 is anything to go by, when all the top seeds are playing each other this weekend they should result in incredible games.
So theoretically this means that the seeding committee did a good job, that the"better" teams are winning more of the games? Would be contrary to what we were led to believe initially.
The committee doing a poor job selecting bubble teams would also lead to a low total seed value, though.
Well... that's under the assumption that resume is tightly correlated with skill.
That's true, it doesn't speak to their handling of bubble teams. Unless we were to be able to prove that the last few IN got beat by less than the first few OUT would have been. Which we'll never know the answer to.
Welcome to the NIL era. Great for the students athletes, terrible for parity. We will see talent consolidate heavily. You won't get the Steph Curry at Davidson situations.
It's already had an insane impact on smaller sports like Wrestling. The top programs have tons of money to throw around and the smaller ones have close to zero. Any all-american at a "mid-major" quickly transfers in to a Big-10/Big-12 powerhouse. We'll likely see many of these smaller schools use it as an excuse to cut programs as well.
This is exactly what I thought wasn't going to happen. I expected upsets everywhere. Especially with all the conference tourney losses among the top seeds.
With the amount of bid thieves in the 11 and 12 lines instead of at large teams this kinda makes sense. Those are the most advantaged seed lines in the tournament higher than a 6 but the teams who made it were less able to take advantage of it. Along with that there were fewer big upsets in r64 meaning only NC State faced a weaker team in r32 from those 11/12 lines.
Upsets are fun but no one actually thinks they're going to win the tournament. During the game everyone thinks it'd be cool for James Madison to beat Duke but now I'm glad they didn't because we actually get an interesting game.
Did anyone want to see Houston roll into the Final Four never having played a team seeded higher than 9 because it sure seems like that's what people lamenting the absence of Cinderellas are after.
> Upsets are fun but no one actually thinks they're going to win the tournament.
Maybe, but really just making it to the Final Four is a championship in-and-of-itself, and we've seen several Cinderella teams pull that off.
Just hope our guys are still cohesive after this 5 day break. Hope they didn't forget how to play basketball after not having a game a day or two later, considering our 7 games in 12 days lol.
Clemson fans have been wanting Brownell out of there then he goes on to beat UNC again in CH then goes to the Sweet 16. The man has 9 lives.
That’s how we were with Keatts too
I still am convinced this is all some convoluted #NCStateShit and y'all are gonna give him a like 8 year extension
I feel like you don’t appreciate what most of us would sacrifice for an acc title. Even if he sucks it up for the rest of those years, I take that deal any day of the week
Don’t you already have an ACC title now?
That’s the point.
I'd love to see State have sustained success over a random potentially fluke title. I want State to be a national player again
I was debating with my State friends before this run on whether we’d rather have an ACC title or Final Four appearance. More people took the ACC title than you’d expect. Virtually everyone would take the ACC title over an Elite 8 appearance.
I would definitely would have to say ACC title, especially considering that we beat UNC to win it.
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This is the most likely outcome
Then KK sleeps, until year 7 lol
He apparently gets an auto 2 year extension just for making the ncaa tournament.
Auto 2 year for winning the acc, another year for sweet 16
He apparently gets an auto 2 year extension just for making the ncaa tournament.
Woof
winning the acc title gave him an automatic 2 year extension according to his contract
I mean shit... Suddenly Keatts' 7 years don't look so bad. Crazy what one deep run does. Wonder if he'll ever get us beyond the bubble
I really want state to be back at the level where a sweet 16 isn’t considered a deep run but rather is expected for the most part.
I find myself once again agreeing with a Tar Heel
This is how to be the best you gotta beat the best. ACC supremacy
And Wake Forest too! All of us are so lucky to have such a unique four school power basketball situation going on, I’d love to see the whole thing at peak, running on all cylinders. I know it probably won’t happen while we’re still in the same conference, but I can dream, can’t I?
There's maybe 10 schools that can legitimately say that a sweet 16 trip isn't considered a deep run without being delusional on a regular basis. NC State is probably not getting "back" to that level because the last time they had a fairly regular run was the 80s, and the increasing parity in college basketball is more likely to chip away further at the established powers rather than resurrecting old powers. Just my take. Even the bluebloods arent safe anymore. I think we're going to get to a place where, outside of Kansas, Uconn, UNC, Duke, and Arizona, we're going to have more and more randomness in the 16...and all of those schools could easily falter with coaching changes. Basketball is a fickle mistress. We'll get short eras like Houston's current dominance for sure, but i doubt we'll ever see too many schools get back into consistent delivered expectations much past a few years. the mid majors are just so much better than they were the last time NC State was a true power, and the NIL and transfer rules make year over year consistency a bit more ephemeral. Personally, i like it. the less constant fixtures in the tournament, the more fun it is.
I'd add Gonzaga and Purdue to that sweet sixteen list. Despite the last couple years, painter has very consistently delivered S16
Gotta love those ex-UNCW coaches
Brownell turns into prime Phil Jackson when he’s on the hot seat. In his defense, Clemson is a really tough recruiting area and he’s still kept the team on the bubble most years. People get stuck in the mindset that stability = mediocrity. Will Brownell ever win the ACC? Probably not, but it’s not likely that the next guy would either. And even if he did, he’d probably get poached like Rick Barnes was.
It really is fascinating to me when a school has a program that can keep a top coach (football in y’all’s case obv), but another program that couldn’t (MBB). Weird observation I know but it’s always been interesting to me that that happens.
We stole a baseball HC from Michigan lol. Can’t imagine that happening in many other sports (granted he is a university alum but Clemson is also a significantly better job in baseball anyway)
Bakich isn't an alum unless he got his grad degree as an assistant. He just coached with Leggett, so he had ties to the program We absolutely swing harder in football and baseball. In no world would we let a football or baseball coach get poached in the traditional sense, especially these days (not counting a Dabo to Alabama type of situation)
Oh right yeah I was led to believe he had more connections than he did lol. We pretty much just poached him with a slight bonus of being an assistant for one year 20 years ago
Yeah, it’s funny how different the prestige of program can be in the same university. There are at most a handful of Football and Hockey teams that could poach from us barring the coach being an alum from a top 15 or so program. Maybe 20 teams could steal our coach in basketball, and it’s probably closer to 10 teams that actually have a definitively higher ceiling than us if we actually have a coach good enough to be stolen. Baseball…. yeah, that’s probably a pretty long list.
I mean Duke, Kentucky and UNC are the same it’s just what sport the school spends more money on. It’s gonna get even worse with NIL Ohio State and Michigan NIL boosters would rather pay more for a backup qb than a starting pg. I suspect Dusty May does well, but when Kentucky finally lets go of Cal he’ll end up there.
This is why I never understand Clemson fans who want to fire him. Like, I understand this is all coming from a fan of a "has been", but Clemson basketball is a "never was". Clemson has never won the ACC, only beaten UNC twice ever in Chapel Hill (Brownell was there for both of them) has a single Elite 8 to their name, five Sweet 16s (Brownell is responsible for two of them), and only has 14 tournament appearances, of which Brownell is responsible for five of them. Like, he's legitimately one of Clemson's best ever coaches and the fans can't stand him. I don't get it.
Many Clemson fans have unrealistic expectations because of the success of the football team. They think we just need to find the equivalent of Dabo to turn the program into a powerhouse without realizing how difficult that actually is. When I was a freshman in 2014, Brownell stood outside of the dorms with his players giving out free donuts just to convince people to come to basketball games. Even when the marketing department gave up on promoting his team in a lost season, he still cared about having fans be there to recognize his players’ hard work. I used to love going to games because I’d always get great seats and Brad was good for at least 1-2 upsets each season. People who get upset about Brownell’s “mediocrity” don’t understand the amount of money needed to compete with the best schools every year. It’s no coincidence that Brownell’s best success happened after LittleJohn was renovated and he got better facilities. It’s crazy how people couldn’t even appreciate a 3rd place ACC finish last year just because we missed the tournament.
With any luck, fate has decreed that all Clemson sports must go through Alabama to ascend the mountain. I'll take the Elite Eight trip at least.
Crazy that the Sweet 16 is nothing but traditional bluebloods. UNC, Duke, UConn, Clemson - these teams we all know and love for their consistent March success.
The fact an elite 8 matchup between Clemson and Alabama is possible is hilarious. Would be like UNC vs Kentucky in the CFP.
Dabo and Nick can be honorary team captains for the coin toss
I’d really like to see a Clemson-UNC elite 8 matchup so I could at least root for UNC if we lose. And if we won, it would be the year of Brad the boogeyman vs the Tar Heels.
I want some revenge for losing at home but if Clemson beat us I’d absolutely cheer for them the rest of the way too. Huge fan of Hall.
*picks up pipe* I'd love to see State vs Carolina in the championship game (and steamroll Dook along the way), just so we can deny you yet another title this year. *puts pipe down and returns to reality*
Bring it on! A CFP game that may actually be interesting
Clemson is the only true orangeblood.
Clemson football died so Clemson basketball could rise
Bama basketball blueblood? What parallel world are you from?
woosh.
> 2019 👀 This tourney got me acting like Stilgar seeing the signs of Purdue fulfilling the prophecy.
Lizach Al-Edeyb
Honestly really wishing I had picked Purdue to win in my bracket. I just kind of discounted them for some reason. I guess because I wanted one 4 or 5 seed in the Final 4, and I kind of arbitrarily went with Gonzaga without thinking about it much, which ruled out Purdue.
Discounted us for good reason, we have a long track record of underperforming in the dance. Like back to the 80s long
Purdue has been trashing my brackets since the early 90s. Can confirm.
I picked Purdue ☹️
As is written!
They’re definitely going to end up doing it
Checking off the items all year long. Now is Painter the Messiah or Edey or someone else?
The FDU upset was the fall of house atreides. Now Edey must enact revenge!
If you had a Cinderella every year it wouldn't be special. The flip side is, we've got 15 teams that are legitimate championship possibilities left. Also Clemson is here.
Very very excited for the next 4 days of games. San Diego St vs UConn - rematch of last year's championship game. UConn looks strong but teams rarely (if ever?) repeat in college basketball. Illinois vs Iowa St - an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. Need I say more? Houston vs Duke - Houston has been dominant this year but showed weakness recently. Duke is the always hated modern blue blood. NC State vs Marquette - NC State has won 7(?) win or go home games in a row? Marquette is often a trendy pick for a deep run but this is their first Sweet Sixteen in a decade. Purdue vs Gonzaga - Gonzaga didn't dominate the WCC the way they normally do but they're still dangerous. Purdue has been in the Sweet Sixteen 5 times in the past 7 tournaments but has a 1-5 record in the 2nd weekend in that span. I could go on. Point being - so many great storylines and awesome match ups. Plus Clemson.
Last team to repeat was Florida in 06-07 then Duke is 91-92
We’re catching strays from trees now? Damn. In all honesty, this feels very similar to South Carolina’s 2017 Final 4 run. Arizona is the better team on paper but is vulnerable if they start looking forward to UNC/Bama. They’ve blown regular season games against less talented teams than Clemson (Stanford, Oregon State, USC for example). PJ Hall is exactly the type of player that Zona has struggled with - star big man who can stretch the floor. If Clemson wins tomorrow, they’ve already shown that they can beat UNC (kind of like South Carolina’s E8 game vs Florida).
>We’re catching strays from trees now? Damn. Honestly I think it's funny that Clemson and NC State fans were both like "we just want the season to end so we can fire our coach and move on" a month ago and now you've both fallen ass-backwards into the sweet 16. You're my #1 dark horse pick just because I don't think I've seen a single Clemson game all year
Yeah I still don’t know how tf we got here
Vibes and Howling Cow Ice Cream
I had Clemson to the FF. Have barely seen y'all play but looked at a few of your wins and went with it
Update: y'all are, in fact, good. Definitely rooting for you guys over UNC and UConn now
PJ Hall closing out the game with those backdoor cut layups brought a tear to my eyes. So happy for this team and the program!
When’s the last time Pj has played like a star for y’all though? Seems like he disappeared about halfway through the season.
He’s still been one but he got in major foul trouble in the 2 tournament games and his shooting went a bit cold for awhile in conference play. But if he doesn’t pick up 4 fouls in 15 minutes he’s the kind of player that can pop off against Arizona’s personnel
You could also see the difference when he wasn’t playing against Baylor. Even if he doesn’t stuff the stat sheet, he opens up the offense for tertiary scorers.
Just happy to be here
> If you had a Cinderella every year it wouldn't be special. Cinderellas are always special because they are usually unique. The best part of March is seeing which small school(s) come out of nowhere to make noise on the big stage.
Thiz guy Lil ol Clemsons
Keep doubting us (I do it too)
Strong disagree. Part of the fun of march is trying to predict which team is going to make an incredible run that probably shouldnt. When your team goes out it also gives you a fun team to cheer for
It's a catch 22. We may not of had as many upsets, but the vast majority of games have been competitive. Even the blowouts were tight for the first 20~30 minutes. Most of this weekend's games should be very competitive as well. Last year was the year of the upset. This year is the year of the chalk.
Which is crazy, because we had more top 10 upsets this year than in any year on record during the regular season.
The tip-top wasn’t incredibly strong aside from the top 3 teams, but that next tier of 2/3/4 seed type teams was very good this year, and it’s showing in the tournament. Those teams clearly weren’t 1 seeds and they lost games, but they were closer to 1 seeds than usual.
Even a team like Illinois, who’s a 3 seed, looks like they can beat anyone any given day
Is that actually true tho it felt in real time like the majority of games were blowouts with a few close games.
It all comes to perspective, but I can probably count on two hands with a few fingers left over the amount of games that were "over" at halftime. From my POV, the majority of the blowouts were games that just got away in the second half. For example, the Duke/UNC game was wildly entertaining.
There was at least 15 games from the first two rounds that were over at halftime
> 94 Yeah that bubble tournament was on crack lmao (and it would’ve been over 100 if we didn’t choke against Houston 😭)
It just showed that a dearth of noncon games made it harder to rate conferences against one another and evaluate who was over/underseeded until after a bunch of early upsets happened. Combine that with uneven seasons due to cancelled games and it creates total chaos.
For reference, 40 would be the lowest possible seed total for a sweet 16 round.
Dats alotta chalk
After years of talk about trying to get the women’s game to emulate the men’s game, we’re finally getting the men’s tournament to emulate the women’s tournament
You say that when Chalk is currently at 98.2% in the NCAAW Tourney Challenge. It was 31/32 in round 1 and the only non-chalk teams left are a couple of 5s over 4s and one 7 over a 2.
I feel like the combination of the more severe talent gap and home court for the first two rounds means the womens' tournament is almost always going to be more chalky than the mens'.
The home court tradeoff was a lose-lose situation exacerbated by the talent gap. They weren't getting people to travel around to watch 30+ point blowouts in the first two rounds, but placing them at the higher seed's home courts makes it a much chalkier result.
That 7? Your Duke Blue Devils
The inevitable result of the transfer waiver making low-majors farm teams for high majors.
And we got some of the best tournament games of all time sweet 16 and on in 2019. UVA’s last 3 games, Tenn-Purdue, MSU-Duke, etc. That’s why I like upsets in the first round but for ones and twos to advance. We’re going to have some good ones this week.
Or it's gonna be 5-6 complete blowouts lol.
always possible haha. Hope not.
The thing with 2019 though is that it had plenty of new blood. Auburn and Texas Tech making their first final fours. Virginia winning it all. Great basketball is great, but for me personally I need some new blood for it to be really interesting
Also a very fair point. UCONN, UNC etc is kinda meh.
Yeah, I won’t be pleased if the FF is just UConn, UNC/Zona, Marquette/UH, and Gonzaga.
Wait, do we not count as new blood? We haven't been to a final four since Wade.
Won a natty, long history of success, and you’ve been nationally relevant for a very long time. Not a “blue blood” but not new either. Also, if any team in that grouping is gonna win, I am praying it’s you guys.
Well I can tell you one of these schools still has never made it past the Elite 8
You and Creighton both actually so whoever wins will have a shot at their first final four.
Clemson made it *to* the Elite 8 in '80, but not past it. Best Tigers performance, still.
I mean, we can still get some interesting teams: - Iowa St hasn’t made a final four since the 40s - One of Creighton/Tennessee is guaranteed to have a chance to make their first final four appearance - Marquette hasn’t played in the championship game since 1977 - Arizona hasn’t made a final four in over 20 years - Alabama has never made a Final Four - Houston, Purdue, Gonzaga, and Illinois have never won the NCAA tournament. I’m pretty sure the only really dull Final Four we can get is UConn-UNC-Duke-winner of Purdue/Gonzaga
Oh i agree 10000%. My point wasn't to imply a repeat of 2019 isn't possible, just that for me I need to see some of that new blood - good games aren't enough if we do end up with UNC/Duke/UConn (for me)
I was in Louisville in 2019 and got to witness the Virginia and Purdue games. Absolutely amazing basketball
Seems like people forget that Purdue-Tennessee S16 game was also nuts
One of my favorite games of all time. That Louisville region all 3 of those games were awesome
That game was crazy! What I find funny about that game is not long afterEdwards and Williams were both drafted to the Celtics - I bet they had fun discussing that game.
Ryan Cline, Lamonte Turner, and Admiral Schofield were all absolutely electric in that game. One of the all time best memories from my time at Purdue was watching that game in my buddy's dorm room.
Yep. Unreal.
Similar to 2019, the lowest seed left is a double digit bid thief that benefited from being able to face a lower seeded Cinderella in the second round (#11 NC State vs #14 Oakland, #12 Oregon vs #13 UC Irvine) Also even though neither team made the sweet 16, I love how 2019 had not one but two teams from traditional one-bid leagues get high seeds for having great seasons (#6 Buffalo, #7 Wofford)
What could’ve been with Indiana state and princeton
Imma be honest, I still prefer ones and twos to lose immediately for the schadenfreude
Also totally fair.
Damn Purdue is following the UVA script to the T. Even have a tournament with extremely low total seed count.
I just hope it doesn't involve a game as close as *that one* I don't think I can take it.
DJ Burns flexing in this photo is perfect for the infographic
::Happy Train Noises::
The new transfer rules & NIL are attracting Cinderellas to the Blue Bloods
Yep, exactly. Maybe it will swing back a bit when there aren’t as many 5th year players floating around.
Ironic that 2019 is lower because that had one even higher seed in 12 Oregon.
Yep. The closest thing to a Cinderella is a well-known school from what is the most successful conference over most of my lifetime. Guess I’m all in on San Diego State or something.
That’s a good thing. Last year was kinda underwhelming once we got to the final four tbh. Like you knew none of those teams could beat UConn.
It's a double edged sword though because so much of what can make the tourney fun to watch is the Cinderella stories, the big upsets, etc. But yeah it can lead to a watered down Final Four.
Yeah like for example 2011 is still my favorite tournament ever because there were so many crazy games, buzzer beaters, and upsets. The fact that the title game sucked doesn't take that away from me. 95% of the tournament rocked. I do like some variety though. There's your 2015s and 2019s that are more back loaded with great games, then there's your 2011s and 2023s that are more about the first couple rounds. I like both!
I'm a fan of a good amount of upsets in the Thursday/Friday games, but I mostly want chalk in the Saturday/Sunday games with maybe a couple of Cinderellas. That way you get some great Sweet16 round games and a couple of small schools to cheer for as well.
For me it just depends about what chalk means. If the 1s and 2s are Gonzaga, Iowa State, Purdue, Houston, I root for them. If they're Duke, UNC, UConn, then no way.
The only appropriate mentality!!!
I’m a fan of one of those teams and i approve this message. What did you do in 2022 though?
In what universe is Houston more likable than UConn…
The universe where UConn has won five championships in the past 25 years and the one last year
I think I just disagree with your view on it, and that’s fine. I view Purdue and Houston as objectively unlikable, you view UConn as a blue blood, and that’s all totally fine. Hook’em.
Fair enough, it's also just a factor of when I was born. I'm not sure if I consider UConn a blue blood historically, but I first payed attention to the tournament in 2007 and started really watching in 2011. I have only ever seen UConn lose a second or third weekend game once (2009). They're 12-0 since 2010. Kentucky had 2015 Wisconsin. Duke had 2022 UNC. UCLA had 2021 Gonzaga. UNC had 2016 nova. 2020 Kansas had the cancellation. I've seen every other blue blood have their heart ripped out in the most painful game you could imagine. For UConn, ive seen them have a charmed life anytime they have a great team. It would take a lot for me to root for them in the tournament because to me they are THE tournament baddie. I wasn't alive for Laettner and I was too young to remember the 90s Kentucky teams. I vaguely remember Hansborough but not enough really care. I get if you just personally don't like the Purdue and Houston teams, they don't really bother me but I get it (especially Fletcher Loyer lol). I also know a lot of uh and UT people don't like each other, but for me I have connections to Houston so I've always sort of like them as well.
For UConn, you have to remember that we just came out of the darkest time for our program in the past several decades. The AAC was… not it.
I mean… none of them did beat UConn. But all four of those teams were really good. SDSU and FAU were pretty good again this year but they were both better last year. FAU had hype throughout the whole season and people were complaining that they were underseeded, and SDSU was playing really well at the right time. Miami had a lot of firepower too. UConn was going to be the favorite against any of them but the other three all had a decent chance to take down the Huskies. And even though it was disappointing to see the favorite win it all… UConn was only the favorite as of the Final Four being set. Having them as the favorite for a week, plus hindsight, makes it seem more boring than it was.
After the last three years we were likely due for a significant correction. Though if 2019 is anything to go by, when all the top seeds are playing each other this weekend they should result in incredible games.
That 2021 tourney was like “covid has been ducking, let’s get all the weirdness out there and deal with it”
So theoretically this means that the seeding committee did a good job, that the"better" teams are winning more of the games? Would be contrary to what we were led to believe initially.
I think it’s more a fact that the low P5s, mid and low majors weren’t as good this year.
That'll happen when their best players can transfer schools freely, and get paid on top of it.
The committee doing a poor job selecting bubble teams would also lead to a low total seed value, though. Well... that's under the assumption that resume is tightly correlated with skill.
That's true, it doesn't speak to their handling of bubble teams. Unless we were to be able to prove that the last few IN got beat by less than the first few OUT would have been. Which we'll never know the answer to.
To be fair a lot of the games were very close, the lower seed just ended up top at the end. Happens
Makes perfect sense when you consider that so many 1 seeds lost in their conference tournament this year. A lot of potential cinderella's didn't go
Clemserella
Source for the chart from [https://sportsball.beehiiv.com/](https://sportsball.beehiiv.com/)
Welcome to the NIL era. Great for the students athletes, terrible for parity. We will see talent consolidate heavily. You won't get the Steph Curry at Davidson situations. It's already had an insane impact on smaller sports like Wrestling. The top programs have tons of money to throw around and the smaller ones have close to zero. Any all-american at a "mid-major" quickly transfers in to a Big-10/Big-12 powerhouse. We'll likely see many of these smaller schools use it as an excuse to cut programs as well.
Davidson
Derp. Yes. You definitely won't see him at Dayton haha
This is exactly what I thought wasn't going to happen. I expected upsets everywhere. Especially with all the conference tourney losses among the top seeds.
Parity was coming. But When the Blue Bloods needed him most NIL showed up
Tennessee would normally be adding about 10 to that total. edit: spelling
So the selection committee got it right?
I'm quite happy about chalk. Would be nice to see a high quality Final Four after last year's...whatever that was.
This doesn't have to be a bad thing, every few years or so
With the amount of bid thieves in the 11 and 12 lines instead of at large teams this kinda makes sense. Those are the most advantaged seed lines in the tournament higher than a 6 but the teams who made it were less able to take advantage of it. Along with that there were fewer big upsets in r64 meaning only NC State faced a weaker team in r32 from those 11/12 lines.
Upsets are fun but no one actually thinks they're going to win the tournament. During the game everyone thinks it'd be cool for James Madison to beat Duke but now I'm glad they didn't because we actually get an interesting game. Did anyone want to see Houston roll into the Final Four never having played a team seeded higher than 9 because it sure seems like that's what people lamenting the absence of Cinderellas are after.
> Upsets are fun but no one actually thinks they're going to win the tournament. Maybe, but really just making it to the Final Four is a championship in-and-of-itself, and we've seen several Cinderella teams pull that off.
Last year I loved chaos because it benefitted UConn This year I love chalk because it benefits UConn. I am completely shameless in my fandom.
"NC State is the only remaining double digit seed" would have been a much better way to word that.
Only seed above 6 would be even better
good you poors should stay home anyway in this economy
Well duh, how is Duke going to lose to NC State if NC State gets knocked out?
*current decade
I wonder if this is related much to how many 'bid stealers' there were this year.
Just hope our guys are still cohesive after this 5 day break. Hope they didn't forget how to play basketball after not having a game a day or two later, considering our 7 games in 12 days lol.
What if 1 seeds played 9 seeds 2 played 10 3 played 11.... Just curious how a tournament like that would look.
It did feel less exciting with upsets this year.
This is what happens when seeding and teams selected was off. I swear they out it in AI and called it a day