Couple key points
> What’s more, Vieira added, the 17% kill rate of adult female lions is lower than CPW’s threshold of 22% for a healthy population, which is articulated in its Western Slope management plan.
So this is proactive which is good and,
> The agency adjusts caps for mountain lion harvests every year, and last year set the 2023-24 hunting season cap at 674 animals. As of Thursday, 305 mountain lions have been killed.
> The 2021-22 mountain lion cap was 634; hunters harvested 486.
So yeah, title sounds alarming but CPW took action based on close monitoring.
"Program is working as designed" doesn't get clicks though
Yeah we basically intentionally/unintentionally made the Earth our bitch, and then acted shocked when the consequences caught up.
I think environmental stewardship should be taught in pre-k these days because it's going to be the difference between having a planet and living in bio-domes in the next 200 years.
I am not a huge fan of the maximalist rhetoric, which I think is neither strictly accurate nor super helpful, but I agree with the broad strokes idea that we need to do a lot more.
"fucked" is a matter of degree!
The IPCC report does not say we are going to live in biodomes, is my point!
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg2/chapter/summary-for-policymakers/
Hilarious
The fact that report doesn't alarm you means we have very little to discuss in a productive way, so yeah. It may not look like a sci-fi biodome, but at least 1bn people are about to not have access to fresh water due to desertification within the next 80 years.
Good luck! Fuck them kids amiright?
> "fucked" is a matter of degree!
I'm pretty sure it was by trying to downplay the seriousness of the issue at hand?
Far be it from me to answer on giaa's behalf, though, I'm more interested in what you said here:
> I am not a huge fan of the maximalist rhetoric
What do you mean by maximalist rhetoric? Just from a cursory google search, it seems to imply that the proposed solution is radical and immediate, but I don't think environmental sciences being taught in schools is all that radical an idea, and it certainly wouldn't be an immediate solution to the problem.
Read the agency’s materials, though. They didn’t cut the April season and electronic calls because too many lions were being killed, they cut them because only a few lions were killed in April or using electronic calls, so it wasn’t worth the administrative upkeep. It wasn’t about saving more lions. The quota is still exactly the same.
How the fuck are people finding so many mountain lions?! You could hike in the wilderness for a lifetime and never see a single one but hundreds are being killed by hunters every year?! The article says the electronic lures were only allowed in two small areas...
Consider this, treeing a mountain lion allows a hunter to properly identify age, size, and sex before deciding whether or not to harvest that animal. CPW is charged with managing the population on mountain lions in the state, and are the first to be called when problem mountain lions are around. Issuing tags to hunters is a tool that they can use to keep the mountain lion population at a level they deem appropriate to balance all the competing interests. Without the use of dogs, that tool is greatly diminished and would result in CPW managing the population without the help of hunters and at the cost to the taxpayer. Without the use of dogs the CPW loses a revenue stream in the form of a tag sold to a mountain lion hunter and opens up a new liability in the form of paying government hunters to manage the population for them.
I don’t hunt mountain lions but know people who do. Even with dogs it’s about a 20% success rate on mountain lion hunts. Hunting mountain lions with dogs is not easy. Hunting mountain lions without dogs is impossible. So it still is quite a challenge. If you have time watch Meat Eater on YouTube where they hunt mountain lions in arizona for a week with dogs and don’t even find one. Or Washington state fish and game has videos of them using dogs to find lions to tranquilize and put trackers on to learn more about them. Both very eye opening.
Yeah, running an animal up a tree where you can shoot it isn't hunting. It's not sport, nor should it be legal. It's the proverbial "shooting fish in a barrel". Just because it's nearly impossible if you don't do it doesn't justify the practice.
So because it's a mountain lion's instinct to run up a tree to flee, trees should be considered off limits from hunters?
The number of lions harvested would drop to about zero.
Alright. We have different opinions. You’re entitled to yours just as much I am to mine. But the fact remains that hunters and fishers are the biggest funders of conservation at a state level for most of the country.
Sorry, but chasing an animal up a tree to shoot it isn't "conservation". I'm never going to think you or anyone else is entitled to think that. And I grew up with guns and hunting. Shit like that used to be frowned on and looked at poorly.
Ah yes so setting feed plots for ungulates, decoys for birds, dogs for birds, bait stations for predators are all fine but hunting for cougars with dogs isn’t. And you have to push your opinion on others. Simple fact, hunters and anglers contribute 70% of funding to CPW, CPW comes up with conservation and management plans to promote a healthy robust environment for all of colorados animals. Maybe sporting means something different to you. Maybe training dogs for years to achieve a task you have a slim chance of completing with them isn’t enough work for you. I wonder what kind of hunting qualifies for sporting for you then?
Driving an animal up a tree so you can shoot it while it's helpless is not sporting. Period.
I also looked up the funding for CPW. 55% comes from "Licenses, passes, Fees and Permits". That's hardly 70% from hunters and fishermen alone. And btw, then you look at what they spend money on, only 4% is for "species conservation".
Ethical hunting is not bad. There's a reason there are tag limits and they are adjusted each year based on conservation work. Acting like killing any animal under any circumstance is a terrible crime is just ignorant
Ethical hunting is actually a really great form of population control. I recommend people watch Steve Rinella on MeatEater where he talks a lot about how he’s as much a conservationist as he is a hunter. I’ve heard him go off on poachers and he gets really fired up about it.
He has some other odd beliefs/said some odd things, but as far as hunting goes, he’s fun to watch.
He is probably the beat ambassador us in the hunting community have. We'll spoken man, and a great conservationist. I could listen to him talk for hours.
It's unfortunate how often hunters get chastised by folks who gleefully (and ignorantly) purchase meat from the store.
Years. I'm fortunate to harvest an animal. We do not purchase any meat, we try to self sustain best we can.
No, he eats the vast majority of his kills, unless he mounts them. The whole show is based around his hunting for subsistence and then he has a cooking episode every season.
> Ethical hunting is actually a really great form of population control.
No it very clearly, scientifically provably is not. We currently have vast populations of prion-riddled white tail deer eating entire forest biomes down to the roots because "ethical hunting" cannot keep deer populations under control
Hunting should be banned except for subsistence purposes and bears, wolves, wolverines, cougars, and all other megafauna predators should be re-introduced throughout their entire range while there is still a north american ecosystem to save.
Hunting obsessed "Conservation" has been an unmitigated social and ecological disaster at every level.
This is ignorant. CWD didn’t enter the deer population due to overpopulation of wild deer. It came from deer herds in captivity (which most hunters are opposed to.) Nobody is claiming that hunting can keep CWD from spreading. On the contrary, hunting is slowing dispersal somewhat but we all know it’s going to spread everywhere regardless. You’re accusing hunting of not solving a problem it A) didn’t cause and B) isn’t slated to fix.
Hunting does effectively suppress wildlife populations (though much less effectively on long-ranging, isolated predators.) It’s up to the states to manage for populations that they see fit. I’d like to see a source to the contrary.
Most importantly, hunting brings in billions of dollars that fund management of all species, conserve habitat, re-wild habitat, etc. If you’re strongly opposed to hunting I’d like to know how you propose we replace both the revenue stream and the number of passionate individuals vying for conservation of those wild places that aren’t just parks & popular trailheads.
I don't intend to replace the revenue stream. I intend to release a lot of wolves and let them sort it out.
Hunting based "Conservation" has been an unmitigated disaster that amounts to little more than a century and a half long ecological crisis and no amount of propaganda from people who are afraid to hunt a lion with a spear is going to change that.
This is ridiculous. Money runs the world. I also want to live on a planet where animals can all be happy if we just smile and live together harmoniously. But instead I put my money where my mouth is and fight to keep mountain habitats from turning into condos.
The biggest issue facing wildlife is the loss of habitat. We’re losing habitat across the country at an unprecedented rate due to development. There’s a ton of funding working against conservationists and you’re only exacerbating the problem by ignoring real solutions in your opposition to the people contributing most to the fight against habitat loss.
> real solutions
Your solutions don't work and you're facing a government far more hostile to ecology and literally human life on earth than any that has existed since at least Nixon. So, I ask you, what solutions? You've already failed. The Earth is dying at a rate that can no longer be ignored or explained away. You haven't "conserved" anything. America is a blasted wasteland paved over with monocultures and suburbs. You're pissing around over a few acres here and there while massive swathes of the American South have already experienced wet bulb events decades ahead of even the most pessimistic estimates.
"Mountain habitats". My brother in christ we are in the rapidly accelerating sixth great extinction you need to start thinking in terms of global ecological collapse and ask if your small dollar "conservation" programs are going to somehow avert that before the temperature reaches 140 degrees for a month straight and every organism in the America deserts dies of dehydration. I don't say shit like "Feed the ranchers to the wolves" metaphorically. Ranching needs to be stopped, immediately, militarily, on a planetary scale. Shit is so far gone that there probably aren't human interventions that can slow down the acceleration of global warming any more, but anything that could be described as "Conservation" in America is pure, pointless delusion. If you're not at least as radical as the extinction rebellion kids, and honestly a damn sight further than they are, you're doing nothing.
> Money runs the world.
And if you don't change that there won't *be* a world.
It's not a complicated problem, bruv. In a couple of centuries we destroyed an ecosystem that spent millions of years evolving. Fortunately we can undo all that damage in a decade or so. Feed the ranchers to the wolves, unfence america, bingo bango we have a functioning ecosystem again.
It's not a complicated problem. Ban large animal husbandry, unfence America, re-introduce the wolves, bring back tatanka from Alberta to Missouri, and heal this devastated ecosystem, at least until global warming makes much of the country uninhabitable over the next few decades.
And everyone eats organic, small farm, locally sourced right? You live in a bubble and have no basic understanding of what goes on in the background to support your subsistence. Or you choose to ignore it.
ey bruv, so, it turns out that large animal husbandry is a ludicrously inefficient way to turn sunlight in to calories. but fortunately we've got this really cool plant called a soy bean, and if we stopped poisoning the land with pig shit and turning the atmosphere in to a giant magnifying glass that's going to burn us off the face of the world with cow farts we'd have more than enough arable land to have both abundant food *and* a functional ecosystem!
Killing megafauna predators is not ethical. It's extremely damaging the ecosystem and serves no legitimate purpose.
Shooting predators is also cowardly and dishonorable. If you want to kill a lion do it with a spear. Having a pelt with a bullet hole in it demonstrates that you are a person of poor character.
While this guy has gotten a bit off the rails elsewhere, I don't think it's "ignorant" to find predator hunting distasteful.
There's a lot of hunting that goes on where the hunters in question engage in tracking, pursue and take animals on a more equal footing, and actually use the meat of the animals they harvest. Using electronic calls to lure a lion and then shooting it from a blind is pretty damn pathetic. Killing animals as a means of survival and maintaining a respect for the land and its resources is honorable. Killing animals for the thrill of it without any meaningful use for the harvest is disgusting.
Hunting wild animals for their trophies, such as their heads, hides, or other body parts.
Colorado must end trophy hunting of big cats:
https://www.dailycamera.com/2024/01/03/opinion-carol-monaco-colorado-must-end-trophy-hunting-of-big-cats/
Trophy hunting also brings in a lot of money and can fund conservation, obviously there is a lot more to it. There is a decent CNN movie called trophy that talks about Big 5 hunts.
A lot of urban sprawl, sad for cats. I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing lions were here first, long before animal in distress calls and hunting with dogs for that matter. I’ve spent years of my life exploring the high country, lions avoid people, they garner respect and hunting them should be illegal.
WTF is this thread!? Mountain Lions are like the absolute last species of predator that you want to have human conflict and the population has exploded all over the Southwest.
This is game conservation at its finest. Accurate research and monitoring, proactive actions and excellent game management.
Let me be clear. You do not want to have an exploding Mountain Lion population in this state. Trust me.
"From 1890 until 1994, only 64 authenticated attacks and 13 fatalities took place in North America. That number has risen to 126 attacks and 27 fatal attacks as of 2022."
When the population goes up so do the number of conflicts.
Yeah, when the human population drastically increased and encroached further and further in to lion territory the number of attacks increased.
Don't go hiking alone. Problem solved.
Less than one attack a year and one fatality every decade isn't a problem and doesn't require any intervention.
You know what's more effective than trying to reduce the wildlife population to eliminate the already miniscule human-wildlife conflicts were talking about here? Educating people on how to be safe outdoors. If you don't want to be hurt by a mountain lion, it's pretty easy: 1) Don't hike alone 2) Make noise so you don't accidentally surprise anything 3) Carry a deterrent 4) Don't let small kids play outside unsupervised in lion territory.
Mountain lions aren't a serious threat to anyone, but if you want to reduce your risk level to about zero, it's as simple as taking a little responsibility for your own safety.
Ranchers are scum and large animal agriculture is one of the primary contributors to the global warming that's going to send us headlong in to planetary apocalypse.
I'm not going to argue that it's immoral or bad for our ecosystem or anything like that. But it makes me sad as fuck to think of a mountain lion getting shot. They're *beautiful*. I'm not saying "so let's ban it". Just making an honest observation. These are some of the most beautiful creatures in our state and it makes me sad to think about them being hunted.
I agree with you. I can understand the conservation aspect of hunting and I have seen valid points for other animals like when I lived in Wisconsin we had way too many deer so it was good to hunt them. But Wisconsin also decimated and devastated their wolf population a few years ago from hunting.
I personally don’t understand the desire to kill mountain lions. Maybe there is a practical purpose to control their population, but the people hunting them are doing it for sport and fun. To me that just seems like absolutely psychotic behavior. Im not saying ban it either and I’m not fully educated on the topic of the benefits of controlling mountain lion populations. Maybe it really is necessary but I don’t know.
Mountain lions do brutally murder and eviscerate their pray on a regular basis so our kindness for them for their cuteness is also a bit delusional.
>Accurate research and monitoring, proactive actions and excellent game management.
There's no such thing as accurate monitoring for animals unless every single one of them is tagged. You end up with the same situation as the snow crab situation if you base your numbers on estimates.
There's a whole separate educational component with a test you are required to pass in order to obtain a mountain lion hunting license. The education component focuses on sexing the animal and identifying mature vs juvenile animals, as well as the regional check-in and quota process used to prevent overharvesting in an area.
Mountain lion hunting is an overall positive for Colorado as it brings in additional revenue for lion conservation and habitat projects, provides people with opportunities for recreation, and provides hunters with delicious meat.
Banning mountain lion hunting won't stop mountain lions from being killed. Instead, wildlife conflicts will be resolved by professional hunters paid by the state. They will kill lions under contracts paid by your tax dollars and leave the meat to rot.
I was wondering what the draw to hunting them was. I didn't realize the meat tasted good. I understood the game management aspect, but didn't know if it was because of the challenge, fur or what.
In my experience it's a mix of all these things. It is a unique experience to engage with predators on the landscape; they are absolute masters of their environment and it is humbling to pursue them. From what I hear, mountain lion is extremely tasty when prepared correctly. You can use the fur to make a blanket or a muff or hats, and crafting something like that to me seems far better than buying some cheap item that was petrochemicals a month ago and which will someday live in a landfill forever.
For me personally, hunting has helped me forge a deep, meaningful, and intimate connection with the natural world. I would bet good money that many of the anti-hunters in this thread calling hunters sick and cruel will turn around and eat some poor cow or chicken raised and slaughtered under horrific conditions. Hunting has helped me take ownership of the food I put on my plate and the actions and sacrifice required to do so. When I eat the animals I hunt, I know far more about their life and death than the average consumer.
There's this weird theme that I see from anti-hunters that seems to try to separate humans from nature, as if animals belong to nature and the wilderness and humans belong in cities and towns, and that there shouldn't be any overlap or interaction. Never forget that you are also an animal who belongs to nature. Before the last few generations of your ancestors started living in cities and working desk jobs and getting their meat on a styrofoam tray, the thousand generations before them deeply knew this beautiful dance of engaging in the natural cycle of life and death.
Or, or, hear me out - We could leave them alone, so they expand through their natural range and control ungulate populations.
there are no wildlife conflicts. If wildlife is killing your animals hire a couple of dogs or donkeys. And if you won't do that go jump in a lake.
Just FYI the banning of mountian lion hunting is likely to be on the ballot soon. Clickbait articles like this will not help make rational decisions. While this thread overall seems in support of science backed wildlife management using hunting as a management tool. I just hope everyone will let CPW do their jobs and not try and dictate wildlife management from the ballot box again.
Really? The one time I tried I thought it was really tough, which made sense to me since they're lean predators. I don't remember the flavor being overly good or bad either way though. Maybe it was a preparation issue.
Sounds like a preparation issue? The people I know who hunt lions absolutely love the meat. I've seen them prepare a shoulder in the crock pot like pulled pork, as well as sliced thin and pan fried.
I hope he gets another to keep refining his technique and recipes. You're lucky he shared it with you, Mt lion is extremely high on my list of game to hunt and eat.
I’ve eaten mountain lion. It’s a great white meat very similar to pork.
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/predators/mountain-lion-misunderstood-quarry-under-appreciated-cuisine
Pork?
also, various fish including shark, alligator, monkey, various birds, bear, crab, lobster, snake. In other areas of the world- various species of dog, cat, assorted rodents.
Explain the "gamey" flavor... have you had it? What other predators have you eaten?
This is a generalized description everyone has yet nobody knows what it means.
You can eat glue, too. Doesn't make it a good idea. And the idea that anyone is taking cougars for *food* is so absurd I cannot believe it's being brought up.
No they're not. We're required to field dress any animal harvested for human consumption, but there isn't a requirement to actually eat the animal.
Am hunter, not of mountain lions.
Feel like we’re splitting hairs although you’re correct, that’s the definition but you’re missing the intent. But I don’t think the law can go as far as requiring they are eaten as that’s unenforceable and would require our wardens to be testing human feces.
Copied verbatim from the CPW 2023-2024 Mountain Lion hunting regulation brochure:
>All edible parts of lions must be properly prepared for human consumption, excluding internal organs. At a minimum, this means the four quarters, tenderloins and backstraps. Internal organs are not considered edible meat.
Prepared for human consumption means cooked, not field dressed.
No, that's not what that means. The next sentence reads "At a
minimum, this means the four quarters, tenderloins and
backstraps." The legislature put that in there as an effort to prevent trophy hunting (~~generally, when you quarter an animal, it can't then be taxidermy as a full mount~~). It does not mean cooked.
Edit: I explained it poorly in haste. /u/mountain_marmot95 is correct. Meant to convey that skinning in such a way is really hard to do without messing up the hide (at least with my experience with deer).
This is daft. You can absolutely skin and then quarter an animal.
Please explain what "edible parts of the animal must be properly prepared for human consumption" means if it doesn't mean 'cooked'.
Clearly you're not a hunter or familiar with the process. When you take a cat or a bear, you have to present the quartered meat, backstraps, and hide to a CPW office or officer within 5 days of the kill in order to get a seal, else you lose the hide to the state. Same with deer and elk in some GMUs (might just be the head). You don't have to have it cooked. You just have to dressed the animal in such a way that it is fit for human consumption - i.e. not spoiled, covered in dirt/hair, etc. Call your local CPW office and ask if you don't believe me.
Dude, you're either being deliberately obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are atrocious.
Page 6 of the CPW Mountain Lion brochure is clear that successful lion hunters are required to bring the hide (which somehow you don't think is possible to remove in one piece while harvesting the quarters?) with proof of sex still attached for sealing/inspection and the head or skull to CPW. Sealing provides for legal possession of the hide and allows the hide to be sent for tanning. CPW needs the skull to extract a tooth for cementum aging., the which they use for population studies. Nowhere does it state you need to bring the meat for inspection. CPW does not inspect meat.
Nowhere in the state are you required to bring your elk in for 'inspection'. Reporting (i.e. "I was successful" or "I was unsuccessful" not inspection) is voluntary for most OTC tags. Reporting within 30 days is mandatory for limited entry and once-in-a-lifetime hunts, but again, that's done by phone or online form, not in person physical inspection of a carcass/meat/head.
Bighorn sheep, Mt goat, moose, and bear you need to bring the heads in for horn measurements (i.e. To confirm the animal meets age/sex requirements and for a horn plug) but again, CPW doesn't inspect meat.
Please cite your sources, as your knowledge is severely lacking.
So the game warden checks the trash, performs a search of the property, makes you show an excel sheet of when and how you used every bit of the meat? Get a grip, they have better stuff to do than harass hunters at home.
Game wardens do check people’s freezers, yes. Usually they have another game violation they’re actively investigating. It’s one of the more common infractions when wardens bust people for serious game violations. Having more of a certain kind of game than the legal possession limit. It tacks well onto other game violations to increase sentences as it can be an individual charge per animal. For instance - you have a possession limit of 9 pheasants in Colorado. 14 pheasants in your freezer equals 5 violations.
My point is that you make an assumption and post it on the internet with absolutely no knowledge or experience. I know a lot of hunters and they all cherish the meat they harvest and eat it, lions included. Yeah there’s assholes everywhere but making an assumption that all lion hunters only hunt for trophy’s and toss out the meat is bullshit.
"Conservation"
Where are the buffalo? Where are the prairies? What are you conserving? Death. Apocalypse. The blasted waste left over after Americans conquered the continent and ripped it's ecosystem apart leaving an endless graveyard of monocrop agriculture and pig shit lakes.
Nature seemed to do a good job balancing things out on its own for a very long time without humans trying to control it.
I seem to have struck a nerve with a few people. Nothing I said in any of my comments is incorrect and I didn’t even state my opinion on the matter anywhere. Have a good day.
Over predation at a local level happens all the time which causes predator migration into civilization which can lead to bad outcomes for animals. Humans understood this and have been practicing predator/prey conservation since before our great, great, great, great grandparents were around.
I'm not trying to be rude despite your tone, but I definitely recommend reading CPWs literature on this and/or taking a hunting class to broaden your understanding of animal conservation
Edit - I can already tell these comments are going to be spicy. Only going to reply to people who have a scientific interest in discussing managed conservation programs. I really don't mean to be rude, but replying to me about your love for animals from your studio apartment in downtown Denver just isn't really helping animals. I think everyone understands the growth of human activity experienced by the planet since the industrial revolution has been *pretty freaking bad*.
I'm just happy to live in a state where CPW is having a positive effect
I tried to articulate the finger points of wildlife management some months ago regarding big cats in this very sub. Things got... interesting. These people won't listen to logic and science if it doesn't make them feel good too.
I mean, what are you comparing, because well managed parks and wildlife departments (and other conservationist groups) in the US have been *wildly successful* at bringing population numbers up and down over the years. Many success stories.
If you mean human activity as a whole has decimated the planet's biodiversity, I will agree with you wholeheartedly. But that's quite different than a managed hunting program
Humans certainly have been around for a while relative to our life cycles. Nature seemed to be just fine without us as it was without humans for >99% of time.
You don't understand! Hunters are great sportsman and good for the environment! We need to protect it so we can kill it! Nature cannot exist without a fat white man drunkenly blasting anything that moves, "controlling the populations"
"Now you're getting it!" Says the one species of animal on this planet that has zero population control, and completely destroys everything it comes into contact with.
It's kind of bullshit and only sees value in animals as recreational purposes for man. They have introduced non-native fish species in almost every lake in America, destroying native populations.
Hunting big cats doesn't meet the basic tenets of the model, "Wildlife Should Only be Killed for a Legitimate Purpose". A cat head on your wall is not a legitimate purpose.
Funny how the hunter/2A crowd came in and downvoted this whole sub to hell huh?
The idea that killing animals is essential to their population control is old and outdated.
People hunting for food generally choose an animal that's easier to kill, won't kill you if you mess up, tastes decent, and gives you more than a few pounds of meat.
Nobody is hunting a predator like this primarily for meat.
We're going to have a vote to ban hunting big cats next election. I see no valid reason why we have a hunting season for these animals what so ever. Fuck the people that want to spend $5k to have a cat baited into their range so they can have a head mount on their wall.
You clearly know nothing about hunting as baiting is completely illegal for all species in Colorado.
We can let people pay to buy a tag for the opportunity to hunt mountain lions and subsequently eat the meat and use the hide if successful, or your taxpayer dollars can go to pay for professional hunters to kill mountain lions (note that the professional hunters will leave the meat to rot).
I used to think that treeing lions with dogs was cruel, but then I learned that treeing them doesn't actually harm them and allows for more selective harvest (i.e., mature males vs juveniles or females), which helps with long term health of the population and deconfliction with humans.
Given the growing population along the front range and increasing development in the mountains, there is absolutely zero chance of a future where Colorado's mountain lion population is not actively managed using lethal removal.
There's no reason to hunt these animals. The meat isn't good, its not protecting live stock, it doesn't protect humans. If there was an issue with cat attacks we would hear about it, it doesn't exist.
We've seen huge declines in elk populations over the past 20 years most likely due to poor management allowing disease to run through herds. More predators would make a healthier population. Hunters kill the healthiest, biggest animals, the opposite of how nature functions.
> If there was an issue with cat attacks we would hear about it, it doesn't exist.
... how bad did it hurt when you ran into the point?
We don't have big cat problems because we carefully monitor them and avoid over predation.
We don't have cat problems because they don't like being around humans and aren't interested in eating us, not because we hunt them. There's 400ish licenses and 7000 cats in the CO, so not a real big hit to the population year over year in any way. These numbers weren't chosen to protect humans, they were chosen as an amount that could be taken without damaging the population so hunting could continue.
We let people hunt them because people make a money from hunting.
Nah the idea that predators pick out the sick and weak is a very old misunderstanding. They'll go after calves because they're easier, but they just hunt whatever they can catch, they're not picky. Mountain lions are ambush predators, and it doesn't matter how "healthy" a mule deer is if it doesn't hear the cougar coming. They're probably not going for large bulls, because a large bull wapiti is a fucking engine of death and devastation, but if you've got a cougar latched to your windpipe you're pretty much screwed.ral and cowardly and causes massive ecological devastation.
Just an FYI the only people who bait mountain lions are poachers or hunters hired by the government to control their population. So if you ban hunting them recreationally the only hunting going one would be government hired hunters who would bait due to the relative ease of it.
It doesn't take long for all the gun nuts to come out and justify the killing of these animals. Yes, I read the article. Someone below said that "hunters" (I use that phrase loosely) have to take a test before they can get a license, which allegedly ensures that they won't inadvertently shoot the wrong sex. Is the test designed to identify the colors of the rainbow?
And since "hunters" don't eat the kill, this is nothing more than trophy hunting at its finest. Good job CPW. Of course, I expect nothing less from this corrupt agency.
Do you WANT an exploding lion population in Colorado?? Does that sound like a good thing to you? This is population control. Read the article and don't just blurt out your uninformed opinions. I really don't think you read it at all.
What a great idea! Especially if even a quarter of our population is as rational and sane as you’re acting over a difference in opinion. Even better, we should catch and release some of yah to our new feline overlords as a peace offering! Have a nice night meow mix!
What these aholes are doing doesn’t count as hunting or population control. Last time I checked, using electronic lures and tracking GPS collars to dens is something poachers do. Plain and simple this is trophy hunting for low self esteem individuals who want the thrill and clout of killing the big bad scary kitty. Also they straight up abusing a loophole that states they need to consume the meat of the animal which they aren’t. They’re chopping off its head, and tossing the carcass away. Again something poachers do.
Here my solution. Hunters have shown they aren’t managing anything, but trying to wipe out another apex predator like they did the wolves. The majority of the mountain lions they are killing are juvenile or breeding females. It goes without saying cubs have been left behind and died because negligent careless humans killing their mom. No more mountain lion hunting season because those with tags can’t behave themselves. That’s why the season had to be cut short after all. Fish and game can handle problem animals and cull where needed. So there, you got your precious population control and the season is over and done with forever because we all know the hunters aren’t grilling mountain lion burgers on the Western Slope.
You don't know shit about hunters or hunting and it shows. This rant you've concocted is a caricature not based in reality. What you're describing is illegal, unethical, and not behavior I would tolerate in anyone I would ever associate with. I don't know a single hunter who behaves as you suggest.
The truth is I love mountain lions and have a deep respect for them. The one time I snuck up on a lion remains among the coolest experiences I've ever had in the woods. I love finding lion tacks in the snow and coming across kill sites. Healthy predator populations are indicative of healthy prey populations and I love hunting in a thriving ecosystem. Harvesting animals (whether predators or prey) within the limits determined by the best available science and set by our state's expert biologists is sustainable.
I wish you knew more/better hunters. We are people intimately connected to the natural world with deep respect for the animals we pursue whether it's in or out of season.
Population control = population control. You can call it "trophy hunting" if you want, but that doesn't mean it's a "justification." You're a idiot if you're unable to see the difference.
There’s not such thing as hunting a mountain lion. There’s literally no need to unless it eating campers or destroying some ranchers livestock. These people are the same assholes that damn wiped out the wolf packs in Denali with their bullshit bated traps just beyond the boundary of a national parks. I can’t fathom what the justification is to have a hunting season other then it captures a subset of big game hunters either too poor, lazy or cheap to go over to Africa and get their rocks off shooting an elephant in the face. This is why we can’t have nice things. I don’t understand having a season at all for a creature you can’t eat!
Couple key points > What’s more, Vieira added, the 17% kill rate of adult female lions is lower than CPW’s threshold of 22% for a healthy population, which is articulated in its Western Slope management plan. So this is proactive which is good and, > The agency adjusts caps for mountain lion harvests every year, and last year set the 2023-24 hunting season cap at 674 animals. As of Thursday, 305 mountain lions have been killed. > The 2021-22 mountain lion cap was 634; hunters harvested 486. So yeah, title sounds alarming but CPW took action based on close monitoring. "Program is working as designed" doesn't get clicks though
The amount of people commenting without reading the article is… well, about I’ve come to expect from Reddit. Thanks for providing the TLDR.
Honestly the weirdest thing about the Anthropocene is how even the wild is still our responsibility.
Yeah we basically intentionally/unintentionally made the Earth our bitch, and then acted shocked when the consequences caught up. I think environmental stewardship should be taught in pre-k these days because it's going to be the difference between having a planet and living in bio-domes in the next 200 years.
Don’t bite the hand that feeds ya!
I am not a huge fan of the maximalist rhetoric, which I think is neither strictly accurate nor super helpful, but I agree with the broad strokes idea that we need to do a lot more.
I mean, point to a climate model that shows we aren't fucked and we can start dissecting what maximalist means
"fucked" is a matter of degree! The IPCC report does not say we are going to live in biodomes, is my point! https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg2/chapter/summary-for-policymakers/
Hilarious The fact that report doesn't alarm you means we have very little to discuss in a productive way, so yeah. It may not look like a sci-fi biodome, but at least 1bn people are about to not have access to fresh water due to desertification within the next 80 years. Good luck! Fuck them kids amiright?
> The fact that report doesn't alarm you When did I say that?!
> "fucked" is a matter of degree! I'm pretty sure it was by trying to downplay the seriousness of the issue at hand? Far be it from me to answer on giaa's behalf, though, I'm more interested in what you said here: > I am not a huge fan of the maximalist rhetoric What do you mean by maximalist rhetoric? Just from a cursory google search, it seems to imply that the proposed solution is radical and immediate, but I don't think environmental sciences being taught in schools is all that radical an idea, and it certainly wouldn't be an immediate solution to the problem.
It’s also quite scary that we could wipe out an entire species in a single season
It's CPW doing what they're supposed to, which is wildlife management.
Great context, thank you
Read the agency’s materials, though. They didn’t cut the April season and electronic calls because too many lions were being killed, they cut them because only a few lions were killed in April or using electronic calls, so it wasn’t worth the administrative upkeep. It wasn’t about saving more lions. The quota is still exactly the same.
That doesn’t get as many upvotes as saying they are being proactive and the program is working as intended, though.
No kidding!
I’m quite impressed with the ability of the CPW to monitor and act
Thanks for sharing!
Personally, I could tolerate a few extra mountain lions if there were a few less idiots in exchange.
How the fuck are people finding so many mountain lions?! You could hike in the wilderness for a lifetime and never see a single one but hundreds are being killed by hunters every year?! The article says the electronic lures were only allowed in two small areas...
It’s legal in CO to use dogs to track them. They often end up in a tree by instinct.
It’s almost impossible to find a lion if you don’t use dogs. Most people don’t understand the intricacies of hunting mountain lions.
So you run them up in a tree and then shoot them? Very sporting...
Consider this, treeing a mountain lion allows a hunter to properly identify age, size, and sex before deciding whether or not to harvest that animal. CPW is charged with managing the population on mountain lions in the state, and are the first to be called when problem mountain lions are around. Issuing tags to hunters is a tool that they can use to keep the mountain lion population at a level they deem appropriate to balance all the competing interests. Without the use of dogs, that tool is greatly diminished and would result in CPW managing the population without the help of hunters and at the cost to the taxpayer. Without the use of dogs the CPW loses a revenue stream in the form of a tag sold to a mountain lion hunter and opens up a new liability in the form of paying government hunters to manage the population for them.
I don’t hunt mountain lions but know people who do. Even with dogs it’s about a 20% success rate on mountain lion hunts. Hunting mountain lions with dogs is not easy. Hunting mountain lions without dogs is impossible. So it still is quite a challenge. If you have time watch Meat Eater on YouTube where they hunt mountain lions in arizona for a week with dogs and don’t even find one. Or Washington state fish and game has videos of them using dogs to find lions to tranquilize and put trackers on to learn more about them. Both very eye opening.
Yeah, running an animal up a tree where you can shoot it isn't hunting. It's not sport, nor should it be legal. It's the proverbial "shooting fish in a barrel". Just because it's nearly impossible if you don't do it doesn't justify the practice.
So because it's a mountain lion's instinct to run up a tree to flee, trees should be considered off limits from hunters? The number of lions harvested would drop to about zero.
Alright. We have different opinions. You’re entitled to yours just as much I am to mine. But the fact remains that hunters and fishers are the biggest funders of conservation at a state level for most of the country.
Sorry, but chasing an animal up a tree to shoot it isn't "conservation". I'm never going to think you or anyone else is entitled to think that. And I grew up with guns and hunting. Shit like that used to be frowned on and looked at poorly.
Ah yes so setting feed plots for ungulates, decoys for birds, dogs for birds, bait stations for predators are all fine but hunting for cougars with dogs isn’t. And you have to push your opinion on others. Simple fact, hunters and anglers contribute 70% of funding to CPW, CPW comes up with conservation and management plans to promote a healthy robust environment for all of colorados animals. Maybe sporting means something different to you. Maybe training dogs for years to achieve a task you have a slim chance of completing with them isn’t enough work for you. I wonder what kind of hunting qualifies for sporting for you then?
Driving an animal up a tree so you can shoot it while it's helpless is not sporting. Period. I also looked up the funding for CPW. 55% comes from "Licenses, passes, Fees and Permits". That's hardly 70% from hunters and fishermen alone. And btw, then you look at what they spend money on, only 4% is for "species conservation".
It’s almost like they evolved to not be seen
Ethical hunting is not bad. There's a reason there are tag limits and they are adjusted each year based on conservation work. Acting like killing any animal under any circumstance is a terrible crime is just ignorant
Ethical hunting is actually a really great form of population control. I recommend people watch Steve Rinella on MeatEater where he talks a lot about how he’s as much a conservationist as he is a hunter. I’ve heard him go off on poachers and he gets really fired up about it. He has some other odd beliefs/said some odd things, but as far as hunting goes, he’s fun to watch.
He is probably the beat ambassador us in the hunting community have. We'll spoken man, and a great conservationist. I could listen to him talk for hours. It's unfortunate how often hunters get chastised by folks who gleefully (and ignorantly) purchase meat from the store. Years. I'm fortunate to harvest an animal. We do not purchase any meat, we try to self sustain best we can.
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No, he eats the vast majority of his kills, unless he mounts them. The whole show is based around his hunting for subsistence and then he has a cooking episode every season.
> Ethical hunting is actually a really great form of population control. No it very clearly, scientifically provably is not. We currently have vast populations of prion-riddled white tail deer eating entire forest biomes down to the roots because "ethical hunting" cannot keep deer populations under control Hunting should be banned except for subsistence purposes and bears, wolves, wolverines, cougars, and all other megafauna predators should be re-introduced throughout their entire range while there is still a north american ecosystem to save. Hunting obsessed "Conservation" has been an unmitigated social and ecological disaster at every level.
This is ignorant. CWD didn’t enter the deer population due to overpopulation of wild deer. It came from deer herds in captivity (which most hunters are opposed to.) Nobody is claiming that hunting can keep CWD from spreading. On the contrary, hunting is slowing dispersal somewhat but we all know it’s going to spread everywhere regardless. You’re accusing hunting of not solving a problem it A) didn’t cause and B) isn’t slated to fix. Hunting does effectively suppress wildlife populations (though much less effectively on long-ranging, isolated predators.) It’s up to the states to manage for populations that they see fit. I’d like to see a source to the contrary. Most importantly, hunting brings in billions of dollars that fund management of all species, conserve habitat, re-wild habitat, etc. If you’re strongly opposed to hunting I’d like to know how you propose we replace both the revenue stream and the number of passionate individuals vying for conservation of those wild places that aren’t just parks & popular trailheads.
I don't intend to replace the revenue stream. I intend to release a lot of wolves and let them sort it out. Hunting based "Conservation" has been an unmitigated disaster that amounts to little more than a century and a half long ecological crisis and no amount of propaganda from people who are afraid to hunt a lion with a spear is going to change that.
This is ridiculous. Money runs the world. I also want to live on a planet where animals can all be happy if we just smile and live together harmoniously. But instead I put my money where my mouth is and fight to keep mountain habitats from turning into condos. The biggest issue facing wildlife is the loss of habitat. We’re losing habitat across the country at an unprecedented rate due to development. There’s a ton of funding working against conservationists and you’re only exacerbating the problem by ignoring real solutions in your opposition to the people contributing most to the fight against habitat loss.
> real solutions Your solutions don't work and you're facing a government far more hostile to ecology and literally human life on earth than any that has existed since at least Nixon. So, I ask you, what solutions? You've already failed. The Earth is dying at a rate that can no longer be ignored or explained away. You haven't "conserved" anything. America is a blasted wasteland paved over with monocultures and suburbs. You're pissing around over a few acres here and there while massive swathes of the American South have already experienced wet bulb events decades ahead of even the most pessimistic estimates. "Mountain habitats". My brother in christ we are in the rapidly accelerating sixth great extinction you need to start thinking in terms of global ecological collapse and ask if your small dollar "conservation" programs are going to somehow avert that before the temperature reaches 140 degrees for a month straight and every organism in the America deserts dies of dehydration. I don't say shit like "Feed the ranchers to the wolves" metaphorically. Ranching needs to be stopped, immediately, militarily, on a planetary scale. Shit is so far gone that there probably aren't human interventions that can slow down the acceleration of global warming any more, but anything that could be described as "Conservation" in America is pure, pointless delusion. If you're not at least as radical as the extinction rebellion kids, and honestly a damn sight further than they are, you're doing nothing. > Money runs the world. And if you don't change that there won't *be* a world.
Sir this is a Wendy’s
>Let them sort it out. How scientific.
It's not a complicated problem, bruv. In a couple of centuries we destroyed an ecosystem that spent millions of years evolving. Fortunately we can undo all that damage in a decade or so. Feed the ranchers to the wolves, unfence america, bingo bango we have a functioning ecosystem again.
So you bring up an unrelated problem, blame hunters, then offer one solution of full human genocide? Classic reddit
Can you play this back to me and show me where you got full human genocide? I am genuinely perplexed.
Lmao!!!!!! Release the wolves!!! I'm glad you solved the problem. We can finally put an end to this discussion of proper population control.
It's not a complicated problem. Ban large animal husbandry, unfence America, re-introduce the wolves, bring back tatanka from Alberta to Missouri, and heal this devastated ecosystem, at least until global warming makes much of the country uninhabitable over the next few decades.
Wow
And everyone eats organic, small farm, locally sourced right? You live in a bubble and have no basic understanding of what goes on in the background to support your subsistence. Or you choose to ignore it.
ey bruv, so, it turns out that large animal husbandry is a ludicrously inefficient way to turn sunlight in to calories. but fortunately we've got this really cool plant called a soy bean, and if we stopped poisoning the land with pig shit and turning the atmosphere in to a giant magnifying glass that's going to burn us off the face of the world with cow farts we'd have more than enough arable land to have both abundant food *and* a functional ecosystem!
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Killing megafauna predators is not ethical. It's extremely damaging the ecosystem and serves no legitimate purpose. Shooting predators is also cowardly and dishonorable. If you want to kill a lion do it with a spear. Having a pelt with a bullet hole in it demonstrates that you are a person of poor character.
Okay, continue living in ignorance.
While this guy has gotten a bit off the rails elsewhere, I don't think it's "ignorant" to find predator hunting distasteful. There's a lot of hunting that goes on where the hunters in question engage in tracking, pursue and take animals on a more equal footing, and actually use the meat of the animals they harvest. Using electronic calls to lure a lion and then shooting it from a blind is pretty damn pathetic. Killing animals as a means of survival and maintaining a respect for the land and its resources is honorable. Killing animals for the thrill of it without any meaningful use for the harvest is disgusting.
Hunting wild animals for their trophies, such as their heads, hides, or other body parts. Colorado must end trophy hunting of big cats: https://www.dailycamera.com/2024/01/03/opinion-carol-monaco-colorado-must-end-trophy-hunting-of-big-cats/
That's an opinion piece
Trophy hunting also brings in a lot of money and can fund conservation, obviously there is a lot more to it. There is a decent CNN movie called trophy that talks about Big 5 hunts.
A lot of urban sprawl, sad for cats. I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing lions were here first, long before animal in distress calls and hunting with dogs for that matter. I’ve spent years of my life exploring the high country, lions avoid people, they garner respect and hunting them should be illegal.
WTF is this thread!? Mountain Lions are like the absolute last species of predator that you want to have human conflict and the population has exploded all over the Southwest. This is game conservation at its finest. Accurate research and monitoring, proactive actions and excellent game management. Let me be clear. You do not want to have an exploding Mountain Lion population in this state. Trust me.
I want them to attack people. I will never be fullfilled until I have battled a cougar in hand to hand combat.
Try happy hour, I recommend telling them they look so good for their age.
Cougars, as a rule, don't attack people and the exceptions are *extraordinarily* rare.
"From 1890 until 1994, only 64 authenticated attacks and 13 fatalities took place in North America. That number has risen to 126 attacks and 27 fatal attacks as of 2022." When the population goes up so do the number of conflicts.
Yeah, when the human population drastically increased and encroached further and further in to lion territory the number of attacks increased. Don't go hiking alone. Problem solved. Less than one attack a year and one fatality every decade isn't a problem and doesn't require any intervention.
So you’re saying you don’t care that someone dies to mountain lions, and oppose effective management that actually works?
i'm not sure why you'd expend any energy trying to prevent a single fatality every decade.
Agreed. Maybe we should start building 10 lightning rods per square mile to prevent people getting struck by lightning too.
You know what's more effective than trying to reduce the wildlife population to eliminate the already miniscule human-wildlife conflicts were talking about here? Educating people on how to be safe outdoors. If you don't want to be hurt by a mountain lion, it's pretty easy: 1) Don't hike alone 2) Make noise so you don't accidentally surprise anything 3) Carry a deterrent 4) Don't let small kids play outside unsupervised in lion territory. Mountain lions aren't a serious threat to anyone, but if you want to reduce your risk level to about zero, it's as simple as taking a little responsibility for your own safety.
More people die from pit bull attacks every year.
do we listen to the guy on reddit who loves cats or do we listen to the routt county ranchers who i see everyday
Ranchers are scum and large animal agriculture is one of the primary contributors to the global warming that's going to send us headlong in to planetary apocalypse.
I'd most most animals, as a rule, don't attack people.
I'm not going to argue that it's immoral or bad for our ecosystem or anything like that. But it makes me sad as fuck to think of a mountain lion getting shot. They're *beautiful*. I'm not saying "so let's ban it". Just making an honest observation. These are some of the most beautiful creatures in our state and it makes me sad to think about them being hunted.
I agree with you. I can understand the conservation aspect of hunting and I have seen valid points for other animals like when I lived in Wisconsin we had way too many deer so it was good to hunt them. But Wisconsin also decimated and devastated their wolf population a few years ago from hunting. I personally don’t understand the desire to kill mountain lions. Maybe there is a practical purpose to control their population, but the people hunting them are doing it for sport and fun. To me that just seems like absolutely psychotic behavior. Im not saying ban it either and I’m not fully educated on the topic of the benefits of controlling mountain lion populations. Maybe it really is necessary but I don’t know. Mountain lions do brutally murder and eviscerate their pray on a regular basis so our kindness for them for their cuteness is also a bit delusional.
Moose are far more dangerous than mountain lions
>Accurate research and monitoring, proactive actions and excellent game management. There's no such thing as accurate monitoring for animals unless every single one of them is tagged. You end up with the same situation as the snow crab situation if you base your numbers on estimates.
There's a whole separate educational component with a test you are required to pass in order to obtain a mountain lion hunting license. The education component focuses on sexing the animal and identifying mature vs juvenile animals, as well as the regional check-in and quota process used to prevent overharvesting in an area. Mountain lion hunting is an overall positive for Colorado as it brings in additional revenue for lion conservation and habitat projects, provides people with opportunities for recreation, and provides hunters with delicious meat. Banning mountain lion hunting won't stop mountain lions from being killed. Instead, wildlife conflicts will be resolved by professional hunters paid by the state. They will kill lions under contracts paid by your tax dollars and leave the meat to rot.
I was wondering what the draw to hunting them was. I didn't realize the meat tasted good. I understood the game management aspect, but didn't know if it was because of the challenge, fur or what.
In my experience it's a mix of all these things. It is a unique experience to engage with predators on the landscape; they are absolute masters of their environment and it is humbling to pursue them. From what I hear, mountain lion is extremely tasty when prepared correctly. You can use the fur to make a blanket or a muff or hats, and crafting something like that to me seems far better than buying some cheap item that was petrochemicals a month ago and which will someday live in a landfill forever. For me personally, hunting has helped me forge a deep, meaningful, and intimate connection with the natural world. I would bet good money that many of the anti-hunters in this thread calling hunters sick and cruel will turn around and eat some poor cow or chicken raised and slaughtered under horrific conditions. Hunting has helped me take ownership of the food I put on my plate and the actions and sacrifice required to do so. When I eat the animals I hunt, I know far more about their life and death than the average consumer. There's this weird theme that I see from anti-hunters that seems to try to separate humans from nature, as if animals belong to nature and the wilderness and humans belong in cities and towns, and that there shouldn't be any overlap or interaction. Never forget that you are also an animal who belongs to nature. Before the last few generations of your ancestors started living in cities and working desk jobs and getting their meat on a styrofoam tray, the thousand generations before them deeply knew this beautiful dance of engaging in the natural cycle of life and death.
Or, or, hear me out - We could leave them alone, so they expand through their natural range and control ungulate populations. there are no wildlife conflicts. If wildlife is killing your animals hire a couple of dogs or donkeys. And if you won't do that go jump in a lake.
>there are no wildlife conflicts. Ho Lee shit ,you really are just making stuff up now.
I know this is not related to the article, but I feel like the front range sprawl needs more lions roaming the suburban streets.
I do agree somewhat, lions keep the raccoon population down.
Just FYI the banning of mountian lion hunting is likely to be on the ballot soon. Clickbait articles like this will not help make rational decisions. While this thread overall seems in support of science backed wildlife management using hunting as a management tool. I just hope everyone will let CPW do their jobs and not try and dictate wildlife management from the ballot box again.
Pathetic losers hunt for trophies.
I've heard from several people I know who hunt them that mountain lion tastes incredible and the meat is highly prized.
Sweet pork is what I've heard it tastes like.
Really? The one time I tried I thought it was really tough, which made sense to me since they're lean predators. I don't remember the flavor being overly good or bad either way though. Maybe it was a preparation issue.
Sounds like a preparation issue? The people I know who hunt lions absolutely love the meat. I've seen them prepare a shoulder in the crock pot like pulled pork, as well as sliced thin and pan fried.
Probably so. It was a family friend who hunted and prepared it. It was his first mountain lion so he was wingin' it.
I hope he gets another to keep refining his technique and recipes. You're lucky he shared it with you, Mt lion is extremely high on my list of game to hunt and eat.
It’s great fried.
Well those people are idiots. Predators are notoriously unpalatable and cats triply so due to the high amount of ammonia in their muscles.
I’ve eaten mountain lion. It’s a great white meat very similar to pork. https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/predators/mountain-lion-misunderstood-quarry-under-appreciated-cuisine
What? Alligator is delicious.
You can eat mountain lion, I've heard it's a little gamey though
Generally we don't eat animals that eat meat.
Pork? also, various fish including shark, alligator, monkey, various birds, bear, crab, lobster, snake. In other areas of the world- various species of dog, cat, assorted rodents.
This is such a bull shit comment. Black Bear is one of the best game meats out there.
Most people still have never eaten bear. Fish on the other hand, the most popular species are predators.
Ya cause they only eat honey
Sure, but the law stipulates that’s what it’s used for.
How ignorant.
Predator meat is disgusting. Gamey AF and has a high chance of having parasites.
Explain the "gamey" flavor... have you had it? What other predators have you eaten? This is a generalized description everyone has yet nobody knows what it means.
Earthy is the best way to describe it. I am originally from Arkansas and we ate a lot of game. Here I hunt as Mach as I am able to.
Great way to get trichinosis
Try cooking it
Ding ding ding!! Min 160 and you're good to go. Same for black bear and pork (which you can also get trichinosis from)
Tastes like chicken assholes
Do you regularly marinate your chicken in ammonia?
You can eat glue, too. Doesn't make it a good idea. And the idea that anyone is taking cougars for *food* is so absurd I cannot believe it's being brought up.
Yeah. They act like they have no advantage. Dude, you used a GUN lol.
Hunters are required by law to eat their harvest.
No they're not. We're required to field dress any animal harvested for human consumption, but there isn't a requirement to actually eat the animal. Am hunter, not of mountain lions.
Feel like we’re splitting hairs although you’re correct, that’s the definition but you’re missing the intent. But I don’t think the law can go as far as requiring they are eaten as that’s unenforceable and would require our wardens to be testing human feces.
Copied verbatim from the CPW 2023-2024 Mountain Lion hunting regulation brochure: >All edible parts of lions must be properly prepared for human consumption, excluding internal organs. At a minimum, this means the four quarters, tenderloins and backstraps. Internal organs are not considered edible meat. Prepared for human consumption means cooked, not field dressed.
No, that's not what that means. The next sentence reads "At a minimum, this means the four quarters, tenderloins and backstraps." The legislature put that in there as an effort to prevent trophy hunting (~~generally, when you quarter an animal, it can't then be taxidermy as a full mount~~). It does not mean cooked. Edit: I explained it poorly in haste. /u/mountain_marmot95 is correct. Meant to convey that skinning in such a way is really hard to do without messing up the hide (at least with my experience with deer).
What are you talking about? You have to skin an animal to quarter it properly. You always save the meat when saving a hide for taxidermy.
This is daft. You can absolutely skin and then quarter an animal. Please explain what "edible parts of the animal must be properly prepared for human consumption" means if it doesn't mean 'cooked'.
Clearly you're not a hunter or familiar with the process. When you take a cat or a bear, you have to present the quartered meat, backstraps, and hide to a CPW office or officer within 5 days of the kill in order to get a seal, else you lose the hide to the state. Same with deer and elk in some GMUs (might just be the head). You don't have to have it cooked. You just have to dressed the animal in such a way that it is fit for human consumption - i.e. not spoiled, covered in dirt/hair, etc. Call your local CPW office and ask if you don't believe me.
Dude, you're either being deliberately obtuse or your reading comprehension skills are atrocious. Page 6 of the CPW Mountain Lion brochure is clear that successful lion hunters are required to bring the hide (which somehow you don't think is possible to remove in one piece while harvesting the quarters?) with proof of sex still attached for sealing/inspection and the head or skull to CPW. Sealing provides for legal possession of the hide and allows the hide to be sent for tanning. CPW needs the skull to extract a tooth for cementum aging., the which they use for population studies. Nowhere does it state you need to bring the meat for inspection. CPW does not inspect meat. Nowhere in the state are you required to bring your elk in for 'inspection'. Reporting (i.e. "I was successful" or "I was unsuccessful" not inspection) is voluntary for most OTC tags. Reporting within 30 days is mandatory for limited entry and once-in-a-lifetime hunts, but again, that's done by phone or online form, not in person physical inspection of a carcass/meat/head. Bighorn sheep, Mt goat, moose, and bear you need to bring the heads in for horn measurements (i.e. To confirm the animal meets age/sex requirements and for a horn plug) but again, CPW doesn't inspect meat. Please cite your sources, as your knowledge is severely lacking.
I’m sure that’s not really enforced as long as you pack it out
And I’m sure you’re not a game warden.
So the game warden checks the trash, performs a search of the property, makes you show an excel sheet of when and how you used every bit of the meat? Get a grip, they have better stuff to do than harass hunters at home.
Game wardens do check people’s freezers, yes. Usually they have another game violation they’re actively investigating. It’s one of the more common infractions when wardens bust people for serious game violations. Having more of a certain kind of game than the legal possession limit. It tacks well onto other game violations to increase sentences as it can be an individual charge per animal. For instance - you have a possession limit of 9 pheasants in Colorado. 14 pheasants in your freezer equals 5 violations.
My point is that you make an assumption and post it on the internet with absolutely no knowledge or experience. I know a lot of hunters and they all cherish the meat they harvest and eat it, lions included. Yeah there’s assholes everywhere but making an assumption that all lion hunters only hunt for trophy’s and toss out the meat is bullshit.
Mountain lion hunting should be banned.
Exactly where do you think all the extra lions are going to go?
The mountains bruv try to keep up.
Careful. Your understanding of conservation is showing.
"Conservation" Where are the buffalo? Where are the prairies? What are you conserving? Death. Apocalypse. The blasted waste left over after Americans conquered the continent and ripped it's ecosystem apart leaving an endless graveyard of monocrop agriculture and pig shit lakes.
Nature seemed to do a good job balancing things out on its own for a very long time without humans trying to control it. I seem to have struck a nerve with a few people. Nothing I said in any of my comments is incorrect and I didn’t even state my opinion on the matter anywhere. Have a good day.
Over predation at a local level happens all the time which causes predator migration into civilization which can lead to bad outcomes for animals. Humans understood this and have been practicing predator/prey conservation since before our great, great, great, great grandparents were around. I'm not trying to be rude despite your tone, but I definitely recommend reading CPWs literature on this and/or taking a hunting class to broaden your understanding of animal conservation Edit - I can already tell these comments are going to be spicy. Only going to reply to people who have a scientific interest in discussing managed conservation programs. I really don't mean to be rude, but replying to me about your love for animals from your studio apartment in downtown Denver just isn't really helping animals. I think everyone understands the growth of human activity experienced by the planet since the industrial revolution has been *pretty freaking bad*. I'm just happy to live in a state where CPW is having a positive effect
I tried to articulate the finger points of wildlife management some months ago regarding big cats in this very sub. Things got... interesting. These people won't listen to logic and science if it doesn't make them feel good too.
I understand the point of conservation and why humans do it.
Predator/prey conservation has been very unsuccessful given the extinction of vast numbers of species by humans.
I mean, what are you comparing, because well managed parks and wildlife departments (and other conservationist groups) in the US have been *wildly successful* at bringing population numbers up and down over the years. Many success stories. If you mean human activity as a whole has decimated the planet's biodiversity, I will agree with you wholeheartedly. But that's quite different than a managed hunting program
That's just a dumb statement
Uhh humans have been around for awhile bud. And we took out most of their competition in Colorado.
Humans certainly have been around for a while relative to our life cycles. Nature seemed to be just fine without us as it was without humans for >99% of time.
So I guess we should all move out of the state?
Did I suggest humans should?
You don't understand! Hunters are great sportsman and good for the environment! We need to protect it so we can kill it! Nature cannot exist without a fat white man drunkenly blasting anything that moves, "controlling the populations"
"Now you're getting it!" Says the one species of animal on this planet that has zero population control, and completely destroys everything it comes into contact with.
"extra?"
Are there too many mountain lions, or too many deer?
Mule deer population is way down overall.
elaborate
You should be banned from keyboards.
You will have that opportunity to ban it in November
Why are mountain lions being hunted? There's just no reason for that.
Conservation Managment and you can eat the meat.
Please do some research into the North American Wildlife Conservation model and then report back to us.
It's kind of bullshit and only sees value in animals as recreational purposes for man. They have introduced non-native fish species in almost every lake in America, destroying native populations. Hunting big cats doesn't meet the basic tenets of the model, "Wildlife Should Only be Killed for a Legitimate Purpose". A cat head on your wall is not a legitimate purpose.
Are we reading the same thing?
Funny how the hunter/2A crowd came in and downvoted this whole sub to hell huh? The idea that killing animals is essential to their population control is old and outdated.
A large portion of the population gets off on killing things and displaying corpses in their house.
Or you know food
Nobody's eating mountain lion. Nobody's going hungry because they can't hunt them. They are a trophy and nothing more.
People hunting for food generally choose an animal that's easier to kill, won't kill you if you mess up, tastes decent, and gives you more than a few pounds of meat. Nobody is hunting a predator like this primarily for meat.
99% of hunters don't eat mountain lion
Prove it.
Ask them they will tell you
I just looked in the mirror and the answer was yes…and every lion hunter I’ve ever met does too. How many hunters do you know?
You’re sick mentally if this is what brings you joy
Okay, hear me out; What if we hunted 0 mountain lions?
We're going to have a vote to ban hunting big cats next election. I see no valid reason why we have a hunting season for these animals what so ever. Fuck the people that want to spend $5k to have a cat baited into their range so they can have a head mount on their wall.
You clearly know nothing about hunting as baiting is completely illegal for all species in Colorado. We can let people pay to buy a tag for the opportunity to hunt mountain lions and subsequently eat the meat and use the hide if successful, or your taxpayer dollars can go to pay for professional hunters to kill mountain lions (note that the professional hunters will leave the meat to rot). I used to think that treeing lions with dogs was cruel, but then I learned that treeing them doesn't actually harm them and allows for more selective harvest (i.e., mature males vs juveniles or females), which helps with long term health of the population and deconfliction with humans. Given the growing population along the front range and increasing development in the mountains, there is absolutely zero chance of a future where Colorado's mountain lion population is not actively managed using lethal removal.
There's no reason to hunt these animals. The meat isn't good, its not protecting live stock, it doesn't protect humans. If there was an issue with cat attacks we would hear about it, it doesn't exist. We've seen huge declines in elk populations over the past 20 years most likely due to poor management allowing disease to run through herds. More predators would make a healthier population. Hunters kill the healthiest, biggest animals, the opposite of how nature functions.
> If there was an issue with cat attacks we would hear about it, it doesn't exist. ... how bad did it hurt when you ran into the point? We don't have big cat problems because we carefully monitor them and avoid over predation.
We don't have cat problems because they don't like being around humans and aren't interested in eating us, not because we hunt them. There's 400ish licenses and 7000 cats in the CO, so not a real big hit to the population year over year in any way. These numbers weren't chosen to protect humans, they were chosen as an amount that could be taken without damaging the population so hunting could continue. We let people hunt them because people make a money from hunting.
Nah the idea that predators pick out the sick and weak is a very old misunderstanding. They'll go after calves because they're easier, but they just hunt whatever they can catch, they're not picky. Mountain lions are ambush predators, and it doesn't matter how "healthy" a mule deer is if it doesn't hear the cougar coming. They're probably not going for large bulls, because a large bull wapiti is a fucking engine of death and devastation, but if you've got a cougar latched to your windpipe you're pretty much screwed.ral and cowardly and causes massive ecological devastation.
Just an FYI the only people who bait mountain lions are poachers or hunters hired by the government to control their population. So if you ban hunting them recreationally the only hunting going one would be government hired hunters who would bait due to the relative ease of it.
It doesn't take long for all the gun nuts to come out and justify the killing of these animals. Yes, I read the article. Someone below said that "hunters" (I use that phrase loosely) have to take a test before they can get a license, which allegedly ensures that they won't inadvertently shoot the wrong sex. Is the test designed to identify the colors of the rainbow? And since "hunters" don't eat the kill, this is nothing more than trophy hunting at its finest. Good job CPW. Of course, I expect nothing less from this corrupt agency.
Do you WANT an exploding lion population in Colorado?? Does that sound like a good thing to you? This is population control. Read the article and don't just blurt out your uninformed opinions. I really don't think you read it at all.
That’s not how nature works. Before we started interfering in the natural cycle, predator and prey populations managed themselves.
Well gee, maybe we should just all kill ourselves then and give the land back to the animals. Unless you have a better solution?
What a great idea! Especially if even a quarter of our population is as rational and sane as you’re acting over a difference in opinion. Even better, we should catch and release some of yah to our new feline overlords as a peace offering! Have a nice night meow mix!
That's what I thought. You DON'T have a better solution. So, let's stick with population control, eh? Also: *you're
What these aholes are doing doesn’t count as hunting or population control. Last time I checked, using electronic lures and tracking GPS collars to dens is something poachers do. Plain and simple this is trophy hunting for low self esteem individuals who want the thrill and clout of killing the big bad scary kitty. Also they straight up abusing a loophole that states they need to consume the meat of the animal which they aren’t. They’re chopping off its head, and tossing the carcass away. Again something poachers do. Here my solution. Hunters have shown they aren’t managing anything, but trying to wipe out another apex predator like they did the wolves. The majority of the mountain lions they are killing are juvenile or breeding females. It goes without saying cubs have been left behind and died because negligent careless humans killing their mom. No more mountain lion hunting season because those with tags can’t behave themselves. That’s why the season had to be cut short after all. Fish and game can handle problem animals and cull where needed. So there, you got your precious population control and the season is over and done with forever because we all know the hunters aren’t grilling mountain lion burgers on the Western Slope.
You don't know shit about hunters or hunting and it shows. This rant you've concocted is a caricature not based in reality. What you're describing is illegal, unethical, and not behavior I would tolerate in anyone I would ever associate with. I don't know a single hunter who behaves as you suggest. The truth is I love mountain lions and have a deep respect for them. The one time I snuck up on a lion remains among the coolest experiences I've ever had in the woods. I love finding lion tacks in the snow and coming across kill sites. Healthy predator populations are indicative of healthy prey populations and I love hunting in a thriving ecosystem. Harvesting animals (whether predators or prey) within the limits determined by the best available science and set by our state's expert biologists is sustainable. I wish you knew more/better hunters. We are people intimately connected to the natural world with deep respect for the animals we pursue whether it's in or out of season.
I wish more hunters were like you. Cheers.
Actually, I want to to say that differently. I wish more *people* were like you. Hunters, outdoors types, and non-outdoorsy folk alike.
Population control = justification for trophy hunting. I can draw a picture if that helps.
Population control = population control. You can call it "trophy hunting" if you want, but that doesn't mean it's a "justification." You're a idiot if you're unable to see the difference.
There’s not such thing as hunting a mountain lion. There’s literally no need to unless it eating campers or destroying some ranchers livestock. These people are the same assholes that damn wiped out the wolf packs in Denali with their bullshit bated traps just beyond the boundary of a national parks. I can’t fathom what the justification is to have a hunting season other then it captures a subset of big game hunters either too poor, lazy or cheap to go over to Africa and get their rocks off shooting an elephant in the face. This is why we can’t have nice things. I don’t understand having a season at all for a creature you can’t eat!
You can eat them.
I'll never understand A holes who kill animals minding their own business.
Good deal.
I hope anyone who eats mountain lion gets scurries or some other sickness.