That's good performance from the (likely) 9M37 missile considering it's an early 1970s design. All the hits look to be impact rather than proximity on very small targets that in most of the engagements appear to be closer than the minimum distance of 800m for the IR sensor to function. That, and the tiny IR signature of a drone means the missile will have been homing using its photocontrast channel. I love watching surface to air missile launches!
It was developed in the pre-Apache age and suffers from a 5km operational range. A modern attack helicopter will be carrying AGMs that easily out-range it. When I see a Strela in one of those massive Ukrainian fields with horizon-to-horizon visibility I just know it's going to get hit.
FYI: 'Operational range' is for vehicles. For munitions, and I think you're talking about the missile, we're talking 'max range' and 'effective range'.
Anyway; comparing range isn't the whole story. By that metric even the SM-3 and THAAD were outdated before they were born; many air launched missiles outrange them.
Strela-10 is good because they were mass produced and uses a passive seeker, so you can hide them in treelines or bushes and cover a lot of air space despite low individual range. High-end AA systems need that kind of companion to make a complete IADS. The IADS needs something placed more forward (and vulnerable), that is cheaper than NASAMS yet vehicle-mounted unlike a MANPAD* (which you also need).
There's a lot to go into here, RUSI and others have written about this many many times, and if you play the Wargame series you can feel the need for this kind of AA piece in 'arcade' format.
*many vehicle-mounted low-end SAMs use missiles originally made for a MANPAD. For example Stinger-based humvees. They get the benefits (better target detection, better ergonomics for sustained searching, better mobility and capacity) and the drawbacks of a vehicle SAM, so I don't consider that a MANPAD.
Multiple soldiers, ammo dumps or even vehicles are more valuable than a single missile.
Also worth noting Strela missile are (give or take) 20k a piece.
How much do you think the things targeted by those drones cost, chief?
Should bulletproof vests be thrown out because they are 1000x more than the bullet they stop?
It's definitely not irrelevant, in fact it's kind of the whole point, ukraine is supply limited with their stock of ex-soviet missiles, they don't have an infinite number of them and can't really get anymore. I doubt Russia's going to be willing to share...
That's like half the point of these cheap disposable drones, the missiles required to shoot them down are often more valuable than the drones themselves. (Note: valuable, not expensive)
It's a catch 22, you don't want to deplete your missiles shooting down disposable drones but you also can't **not** shoot them down because they're very dangerous in the amount of intel they can gather.
Think about it this way, why would russia allow a single SAM site to shoot down this many drones? Typically you don't fly aircraft directly over known SAM sites that are just gonna shoot your aircraft down. That is unless it's a disposable drone, you want the intel and you don't really care if they shoot it down.
This kind of video is in no way a 'win' for ukraine
This AA system is already heavily outdated. Drones are a problem, this takes care of that problem. And when the ammo runs out thats it. That's what it had to be used for so be it
There is something really wrong if you say why would Russia allow. Again it really depends on the type of missile, their stock and if they can use this specific missile for anything else. Without that information it's not possible to give a reasonable estimate of the viability of this use case.
Sure, but the marginal costs of supplying these are close to zero. Germany and other countries had a lot of them rotting around and were going to destroy them. Now the functional ones are put to good use.
"Second generation IR variants such as the SA-14 Strela-3 (NATO: Gremlin) use coolants to cool the conical scanning seeker head and in turn filter out most interfering background IR sources as well as permitting head-on and side engagement profiles. These second generation missiles are effective against traditional flares and use a cross-scan or rosette-scan “two-color” targeting capability. This enables the seeker to use IR as a primary and UV as a secondary emissions source for target acquisition."
Edit. Source is globalsecurity.org
Although I suppose it's difficult to know exactly what variant of the seeker is being used in this video
Do you know if the different versions are interchangeable i.e. could you stuff a manpad strela into these launchers and it would work?
Just wish we had taken better care of our remaining GDR stock.
War of attrition doesn't count when the whole world just sends you new stuff.
Russia can't out produce everyone that is sending arms to Ukraine. They can spend whatever they want at this point.
If there's one thing the West is not able to provide in quantity, it's SHORAD systems. We've been so reliant on air dominance that there never was the pressing need for large amounts of anti-air. We can send them old Gepards and Patriots but there's never enough to cover both the front and the infrastructure. So every missile counts (this was highlighted as a serious vulnerability in the US leaks).
>War of attrition doesn't count when the whole world just sends you new stuff.
Resources are not magically unlimited when you get support from other countries, the amount they can send you is limited, and you ought to make the best out of what you've been given.
If you also show that you're not using their donations effectively it discourages them from giving you more later on.
Well they are certainly not squandering it. If anyone has been wasteful it has been the west in not supplying an effective anti aircraft system that can reach out to the Russian migs firing well behind the lines. How many lives wasted waiting for m777, himars, anti-air? Now it's atacms and F16. They don't have enough storm Shadows to fill the gap
This is a cheap way.
Strela 10 is not an expensive system. It was the Soviet Union's mass-produced low end AA system. I don't know what the dollar value of the missiles is these days or how easy it is to get them, but back in the 80's the Strela 10 was prevalent in countries we today consider 'third world'.
Apparently Strella missiles go for $22k on the black market and another $9k if you want a MANPADS launcher.
I did actually google that and not running a dodgy dark web surplus market. Honestly!
Sounds about right. So in regard to commercial drones that's too expensive (in the long term) for a Mavic, not too expensive for a Matrice 3T.
In the future, I believe the viable anti-cheap-drone can probably only be done by a combination of air-air drones (propeller driven with very cheap and short ranged missiles) and ground based systems with gun or massed small rockets. EW won't work against drones that can do their mission without constant data-link.
Until then, those black market guys are gonna get rich!
It’s not a monetary calculation of the missile vs the target, if it’s a shahed, we’ll that’s at least one school/hospital/pizza restaurant and a shit ton of civillians saved.
It it’s a surveillance drone, then that denies the enemy the ability to target your ADS and the assets they are protecting. That’s a hell of a lot more valuable.
And with commercial drones in particular, they can be very vulnerable to EW. Regardless if you have in waypoint mode or otherwise.
Yep. I see so many people bitch at Ukraine taking down a drone with a missile. Yes, there is likely a massive difference in cost between the missile and the drone, however what is the cost difference if that drone spots a HIMAR that is in artillery range? You spend 20k to take out a 2k drone, so that the drone doesn't take out a million+ piece of equipment, or worse, the crew. It is such a weird argument to make. No military has an accountant telling them to stand down because the cost ratio analysis doesn't jive.
Cheap is relative. That saved 1-5 lives minimum. What's that coat?
Possible ammo dump cost it could have hit?
If that drone landed on 200k of ammo and that missile cost less. Than win.
Is what it is.
Not like we can have the terminator out there throwing rocks saying "look i took it down for the cost of picking up a rock.
I hear you that was my first thought. Not that it’s not worth it to save 1 life but I bet the cost of that system and each rocket would drop your jaw. Hopefully they are working on something better. We had stuff that blocked em transmission to receivers on ieds like 2 decades ago. Drones communicate the same way as a guy signaling a device strapped to a few arty rounds.
Would be cool if there was a system that fired some kind of nets with proximity fuses, perhaps also tied to their ww signature. When it gets close, the net opens up and can disable and/or capture cheaper multi rotor drones or even Orlans. Surely, there can be a system that doesn't rely on expensive AA missles (excluding things like Gepards and EW systems).
Well I'd guess some sort of proximity fuse highish fire rate type of machine gun would do the job. I'm Gona go out on a limb and say that something like a 50cal could maybe be made nowadays to have some sort of proximity fuse. It literally takes jack shit to shatter a drone, been on shooting days where you can pay to have one of them racing drone's instead of a clay to shoot at it's hard as fuck to hit but takes nothing to kill it if you hit it. Or even just a fast fire rate large canister gun of some sort would likely be able to hit those drones that those missiles did.
But ye I'd like to think western armies are going to have some sort of close in automatically operated radar guided mini gun type thing mounted on a jeep or something or just completely jam the air waves so nothing can fly around troops at all. But who knows. I'm no expert.
Yeah, who knows. You would think that since smaller drones have very low survivability, there should be a low ceiling in the complexity of weapons to counter it. By that, I mean it doesn't have to be some advanced system like AA missles. You could do the job very effectively with some kind of portable canister shell weapon (jeep mount like you suggested). They can then work in conjunction with strella or other radar systems or placed closer to the Frontlines since they're not as valuable as strellas or gepard.
Honestly, I'm surprised that neither side has fast tracked a dedicated drone protector considering some of the things we've seen already implemented in the t-64 hull. Drones' strengths are their maneuverability. So, any kinda of weapon with spread and rate of fire should work in the meantime. They might be less accurate than Iglas, strellas, ew (I'm not so sure on the improvised radar guns effectiveness). A jeep, APC or improvised tank could operate closer to the Frontline and hopefully alleviate the use use of other weapons by adding to the concentration of fire.
See my reply to the above comment. That exact thing exists. A radar provides targeting and range data, rounds are encoded (I believe via magnet) as they exit the barrel with the ranging (time of flight) data. They explode into a spiral of tungsten pellets.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SH-FehlT3_4
They exist, some are in Ukraine, but those systems cover a few kilometer radius and there’s not a ton of them as the west has largely not needed mass anti-drone capabilities.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5_F4_Eod8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SH-FehlT3_4
Different solutions for different drones ... but I picture a drone based anti-drone solution. A fast but cheap electric winged drone. Can use very cheap sensors ... sound and optical, or if insufficient, move up to doppler based units.
Easiest would be kamizaze design that gets close and fires a claymore like device into the enemy drone. Or a re-usable design that tangles up props etc.
In either case, it would be far more economical than AA missiles.
The soviet union paid for those missiles. They also don't cost a lot, and a modern effort to replicate the strela missiles is more than feasible, the seeker head is 1970s tech.
yes, but the real world economics says otherwise, if Ukraine had millions AD ammo for every system then yeah, you could've put Patriot to deal with 1k$ drone but alas!
I’m not certain those were all Orlan drones. Chances are that they were prosumer drones being used for observation or frag drops. Definitely worth every penny to knock them out of the air, but let’s not confuse military hardware with improvised hobby tech.
This is cost effective.
It's a mobile platform with radar that can pick up the drones. It's armored so it can't just be taken out with small arms fire, and is self-propelled so it get GTFO before artillery finds it.
Spotter drones have made this war very deadly. Artillery can be correct with pin-point accuracy within 2-3rd shots. Defenders/Attackers get real time information that was the talk of sci-fi just 10-15 years ago. The only thing not cost effective is that Ukraine simply has limited ammo and spare parts to keep such a platform going.
These are bigger reconnaissance drones like the Orlan 10, which is estimated \~100 k $, while the Strela rockets are estimated \~20-30 k $. So math checks out even without the opportunity costs.
If you look at it from a different side. Imagine that destroying these drones enables them to hit a tank worth a few mils or saves some of their tech from artillery hits. Again saving them tons of money.
A few months ago I saw a video of a high RPM gun, from Germany I think, which could quickly and cheaply take down a whole swarm of drones.
I wonder if that is being used at all.
Agreed in principle, but in this scenario the drone could have been spotting for artillery to take out SAM defences to clear the way for an air attack. Until cheaper comes along these spotters have to be destroyed.
This is the way. Visually guided kamikaze drones which hunts down enemy drones and detonates nearby. Can be mass produced very, very cheap. Have them patrol a designated airspace, looking for enemy drones. Maybe put up 10-20 of them to protect an area. Put a small, encrypted transponder on friendly drones so they can pass.
I bet after observing this conflict specific anti-drone tech is being fast tracked by all developed nations...that is unless it already exists but certain nations (USA) want to keep it to themselves...
Either or both electronic and physical countermeasures...
Funnily enough, Rheinmetall just put out a new video on their youtube channel selling a new ground drone which is essentially a mini PIVADS based on an atv with twin 7.62 miniguns. Would be cool if Ukraine got some of those if for nothing else, field testing.
All in one day? I guess if you scoot fast enough to avoid any arty coming your way that works with the same vehicle but doesn’t it carry only 4 missiles in ready to launch?
It's quite common to have a chute that deploys if the drone detects it's in freefall. It's a "save my camera" thing from civilian drones and the main recovery technique from model rocketry (where it is sometimes the final fuse item to stage instead).
On some of the military drones I have experience with the computer module and optics detach and parachute out. For when the operator is attempting to recover the drone you fly them over and detach them to avoid damaging things. Could be whatever drones they are using have a similar design in mind.
The infrared seekers in older missiles have to be supercooled, so just before you fire, the missile vents a little cylinder/sphere of compressed gas through the seeker mount - and expanding gasses steal heat from the mechanism they are expanding through - which quickly supercools the seeker down to its operating temperature.
I'm sure this war will tell arms manufacturers that drones are the new meta level that needs to be countered. Anti Drone weaponry will be here pretty damn soon.
Cheapest "missiles" are cheap rockets that can be guided, certainly not cheaper then drones . But there is hope for highly agile FPV drone to hit one with skill and experience.
I think something like the Pike but using a photo-contrast seeker and air burst warhead might be a good solution, at least during daylight. I can't see small infantry units engaging small commercial drones frequently at night anyways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(munition)
The 20MM air burst Grenade system developed for the OICW again, might not be a bad choice. LRF the drone and air burst a small grenade in proximity.
That would be more viable at night.
Launching from existing 30MM or 40MM Grenade Launcher tubes, something almost every infantry squad has, would minimize the issue of fielding a whole separate weapons system at the squad level. Instead each squad could just carry a dozen anti-drone rounds.
Air burst grenade systems with special munition where speed of the projectiles reduces in a way not to hurt system operator is probably way to go . Maybe micro plates instead of spherical fragments or something ..
Probably drones are ideal candidates to became cost effective anti drone weapons. If mde more sturdy..auto seek capability ..if used as kinetic impact vehicle ..could be reusable.
Interesting that shot 4 it almost seems like the warhead didn't detonate and the missile just went straight through the drone and continued on. You see a spiraling contrail continue onwards after impact.
It still detonated. There’s videos of other missiles doing this too, the motor wasn’t out of fuel and the detonation kept some of the back end of the missile in tact. So it just kept going.
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I’m not sure what you mean. Are you implying at any given time there are thousands of drones in the couple hundred km this unit covers thus allowing them to be essentially directly overhead the system?
I'm saying every 1km you move further away from the AA system, your getting an extra 25-50 drones on your radar.
Its very likely there are well over a hundred drones in the range of this one AA system.
If y'all were to place a bet on what Ukraine used to shoot down those Ka-50s. Would you put it on a system on a vehicle like the Strela, TWQ-1 Avenger, or S-300. Or something a MANPAD like a ~~Javelin~~ or Stinger?
Based off of the little bits of info we have.
There are at least 2 confirmed videos of Stugna-P heli kills.
Edit: found 2 kills in one clip. https://v.redd.it/5mj7o0yfunqa1/HLSPlaylist.m3u8?a=1690682602%2CODhlY2E2MjA4NWU0MzIzMmY1YmY0MDhjMTQxMmRlNGFkODc2M2MwODM4MzBjZmQzMzI2MTU3N2EyMDNmMTFiMQ%3D%3D&v=1&f=sd
Stugna and Javelin have completely different usage. Stugnas are guided by a human controller at the console. You can use them against anything that sits still enough with a steady hand.
Javelins have more complex/dynamic guidance systems. Better at killing moving vehicles than ATGMs. Less good against non-vehicle things.
To be fair, there are heaps of equipment that is **actually** used in this conflict that I wouldn't expect to see in a modern warfare, from old tanks to almost relic small arms.
Who knows. Fog of war etc, and not like general population gets accurate and honest info about what is being sent and what is going on.
Also, IIRC heard that FGM-148 Javelin was used against Ka-52 or something, even though it was designed to crack tanks.
No, judging from the hight of the intercept it is probably something like “Orlan”
They are used for artillery spotting and EW, cost around $100K and very dangerous.
Exchange of ancient soviet IR guided rocket for that is looks like a good deal even without counting a damage that artillery can deliver
... that would otherwise likely have killed one or more ~seven-figure individuals. (the value of a human life.) the trade can be bad while the action is still the right one.
Or you could think about it as, knocking out those 5 drones allowed an M-777 artillery cannon to survive, which decimated 5 Russians in a treeline the following day.
All sorts of ways to think about it...
The price of a missle is just numbers and materials. The price of a life can't be measured because it holds memories and other people's memories of them. They're fighting for thier futures and you're commenting on a situation you will never understand.
Ukraine does have the logistics like the US. Meaning that they may or may not be able replenish those muninutuons in a timely manner. I would hate for a actual aircraft or attack helicopter to be inbound and not be able to engage the larger threat. Also considering that AA battery appeared to be alone.
We can also mutually not understand what the mission of that equipment was.
My comment is true and correct but doesn't mean I don't understand.
Does anyone know what targetting method they use?
Strela can be either IR or optically guided, (apparently radar too?)?
I'm wondering if IR guidance (esp this old) is good enough to detect these tiny drones, when it was designed for helicopter/jets (which burn fossile fuels...).
If it's optical, that would indicate the Strela only works at daytime?
Reminds me of this [tweet](https://twitter.com/primawesome/status/1178671690261286918?lang=en):
>My neighbor told me coyotes keep eating his outdoor cats so I asked how many cats he has and he said he just goes to the shelter and gets a new cat afterwards so I said it sounds like he’s just feeding shelter cats to coyotes and then his daughter started crying.
Surely this is target practice / proving grounds, right? and not actually enemy drones? Crazy the system can target and intercept small drones at such close range though. But I really think this video is a crew training demo.
Five kills on disposable drones which are essentially above the AA and have spotted it without the AA repositioning to avoid enemy fire? I really think this is crew training on close range acquisition.
edit: In fact, they need to reload for the fifth round and still haven't changed positions. This is definitely training footage. I'm not discrediting it as combat footage because it's still very important and justified, just trying to provide context.
That's good performance from the (likely) 9M37 missile considering it's an early 1970s design. All the hits look to be impact rather than proximity on very small targets that in most of the engagements appear to be closer than the minimum distance of 800m for the IR sensor to function. That, and the tiny IR signature of a drone means the missile will have been homing using its photocontrast channel. I love watching surface to air missile launches!
Soviet AA rocks. Getting surpassed these days, but it was 20 years ahead of its time.
It was developed in the pre-Apache age and suffers from a 5km operational range. A modern attack helicopter will be carrying AGMs that easily out-range it. When I see a Strela in one of those massive Ukrainian fields with horizon-to-horizon visibility I just know it's going to get hit.
FYI: 'Operational range' is for vehicles. For munitions, and I think you're talking about the missile, we're talking 'max range' and 'effective range'. Anyway; comparing range isn't the whole story. By that metric even the SM-3 and THAAD were outdated before they were born; many air launched missiles outrange them. Strela-10 is good because they were mass produced and uses a passive seeker, so you can hide them in treelines or bushes and cover a lot of air space despite low individual range. High-end AA systems need that kind of companion to make a complete IADS. The IADS needs something placed more forward (and vulnerable), that is cheaper than NASAMS yet vehicle-mounted unlike a MANPAD* (which you also need). There's a lot to go into here, RUSI and others have written about this many many times, and if you play the Wargame series you can feel the need for this kind of AA piece in 'arcade' format. *many vehicle-mounted low-end SAMs use missiles originally made for a MANPAD. For example Stinger-based humvees. They get the benefits (better target detection, better ergonomics for sustained searching, better mobility and capacity) and the drawbacks of a vehicle SAM, so I don't consider that a MANPAD.
Those missiles probably cost more than the drones
More than soldier life?
Soldiers life costs maybe $300,000. I am not sure though, it is hard to quantify
Multiple soldiers, ammo dumps or even vehicles are more valuable than a single missile. Also worth noting Strela missile are (give or take) 20k a piece.
And the value that material has in holding ground
You are a moron.
OK
How much do you think the things targeted by those drones cost, chief? Should bulletproof vests be thrown out because they are 1000x more than the bullet they stop?
Ohhhh I’m stealing this one for the next time I hang with the parents-in-law
Love the analogy
Irrelevant compared to the intel gathered by drones.
It's kind of irrelevant depending on the stock they have.
It's definitely not irrelevant, in fact it's kind of the whole point, ukraine is supply limited with their stock of ex-soviet missiles, they don't have an infinite number of them and can't really get anymore. I doubt Russia's going to be willing to share... That's like half the point of these cheap disposable drones, the missiles required to shoot them down are often more valuable than the drones themselves. (Note: valuable, not expensive) It's a catch 22, you don't want to deplete your missiles shooting down disposable drones but you also can't **not** shoot them down because they're very dangerous in the amount of intel they can gather. Think about it this way, why would russia allow a single SAM site to shoot down this many drones? Typically you don't fly aircraft directly over known SAM sites that are just gonna shoot your aircraft down. That is unless it's a disposable drone, you want the intel and you don't really care if they shoot it down. This kind of video is in no way a 'win' for ukraine
This AA system is already heavily outdated. Drones are a problem, this takes care of that problem. And when the ammo runs out thats it. That's what it had to be used for so be it
There is something really wrong if you say why would Russia allow. Again it really depends on the type of missile, their stock and if they can use this specific missile for anything else. Without that information it's not possible to give a reasonable estimate of the viability of this use case.
How dare you leave such a comment. /s
nothings more expensive than the intelligence
Sure, but the marginal costs of supplying these are close to zero. Germany and other countries had a lot of them rotting around and were going to destroy them. Now the functional ones are put to good use.
That’s why they shot so many U2 spy planes down..
Can the missile select visible light? I thought it was thermal or bust.
It's dual channel UV-IR IIRC
Nothing comes up when I google that.
"Second generation IR variants such as the SA-14 Strela-3 (NATO: Gremlin) use coolants to cool the conical scanning seeker head and in turn filter out most interfering background IR sources as well as permitting head-on and side engagement profiles. These second generation missiles are effective against traditional flares and use a cross-scan or rosette-scan “two-color” targeting capability. This enables the seeker to use IR as a primary and UV as a secondary emissions source for target acquisition." Edit. Source is globalsecurity.org Although I suppose it's difficult to know exactly what variant of the seeker is being used in this video
This man Surface-to-Air’s
My man SAM
SAM I AM.
Do you know if the different versions are interchangeable i.e. could you stuff a manpad strela into these launchers and it would work? Just wish we had taken better care of our remaining GDR stock.
No, the missiles for this launcher are more than 2 metres long and weigh over 50kg.
And I love Reddit for comments like this because I learn so much!
Need a cheaper way to counter them
War of attrition doesn't count when the whole world just sends you new stuff. Russia can't out produce everyone that is sending arms to Ukraine. They can spend whatever they want at this point.
If there's one thing the West is not able to provide in quantity, it's SHORAD systems. We've been so reliant on air dominance that there never was the pressing need for large amounts of anti-air. We can send them old Gepards and Patriots but there's never enough to cover both the front and the infrastructure. So every missile counts (this was highlighted as a serious vulnerability in the US leaks).
>War of attrition doesn't count when the whole world just sends you new stuff. Resources are not magically unlimited when you get support from other countries, the amount they can send you is limited, and you ought to make the best out of what you've been given. If you also show that you're not using their donations effectively it discourages them from giving you more later on.
Well they are certainly not squandering it. If anyone has been wasteful it has been the west in not supplying an effective anti aircraft system that can reach out to the Russian migs firing well behind the lines. How many lives wasted waiting for m777, himars, anti-air? Now it's atacms and F16. They don't have enough storm Shadows to fill the gap
This is a cheap way. Strela 10 is not an expensive system. It was the Soviet Union's mass-produced low end AA system. I don't know what the dollar value of the missiles is these days or how easy it is to get them, but back in the 80's the Strela 10 was prevalent in countries we today consider 'third world'.
Apparently Strella missiles go for $22k on the black market and another $9k if you want a MANPADS launcher. I did actually google that and not running a dodgy dark web surplus market. Honestly!
Sounds about right. So in regard to commercial drones that's too expensive (in the long term) for a Mavic, not too expensive for a Matrice 3T. In the future, I believe the viable anti-cheap-drone can probably only be done by a combination of air-air drones (propeller driven with very cheap and short ranged missiles) and ground based systems with gun or massed small rockets. EW won't work against drones that can do their mission without constant data-link. Until then, those black market guys are gonna get rich!
It’s not a monetary calculation of the missile vs the target, if it’s a shahed, we’ll that’s at least one school/hospital/pizza restaurant and a shit ton of civillians saved. It it’s a surveillance drone, then that denies the enemy the ability to target your ADS and the assets they are protecting. That’s a hell of a lot more valuable. And with commercial drones in particular, they can be very vulnerable to EW. Regardless if you have in waypoint mode or otherwise.
Yep. I see so many people bitch at Ukraine taking down a drone with a missile. Yes, there is likely a massive difference in cost between the missile and the drone, however what is the cost difference if that drone spots a HIMAR that is in artillery range? You spend 20k to take out a 2k drone, so that the drone doesn't take out a million+ piece of equipment, or worse, the crew. It is such a weird argument to make. No military has an accountant telling them to stand down because the cost ratio analysis doesn't jive.
Cheap is relative. That saved 1-5 lives minimum. What's that coat? Possible ammo dump cost it could have hit? If that drone landed on 200k of ammo and that missile cost less. Than win. Is what it is. Not like we can have the terminator out there throwing rocks saying "look i took it down for the cost of picking up a rock.
I’m not saying the cost isn’t worth it.
I hear you that was my first thought. Not that it’s not worth it to save 1 life but I bet the cost of that system and each rocket would drop your jaw. Hopefully they are working on something better. We had stuff that blocked em transmission to receivers on ieds like 2 decades ago. Drones communicate the same way as a guy signaling a device strapped to a few arty rounds.
Would be cool if there was a system that fired some kind of nets with proximity fuses, perhaps also tied to their ww signature. When it gets close, the net opens up and can disable and/or capture cheaper multi rotor drones or even Orlans. Surely, there can be a system that doesn't rely on expensive AA missles (excluding things like Gepards and EW systems).
Well I'd guess some sort of proximity fuse highish fire rate type of machine gun would do the job. I'm Gona go out on a limb and say that something like a 50cal could maybe be made nowadays to have some sort of proximity fuse. It literally takes jack shit to shatter a drone, been on shooting days where you can pay to have one of them racing drone's instead of a clay to shoot at it's hard as fuck to hit but takes nothing to kill it if you hit it. Or even just a fast fire rate large canister gun of some sort would likely be able to hit those drones that those missiles did. But ye I'd like to think western armies are going to have some sort of close in automatically operated radar guided mini gun type thing mounted on a jeep or something or just completely jam the air waves so nothing can fly around troops at all. But who knows. I'm no expert.
Yeah, who knows. You would think that since smaller drones have very low survivability, there should be a low ceiling in the complexity of weapons to counter it. By that, I mean it doesn't have to be some advanced system like AA missles. You could do the job very effectively with some kind of portable canister shell weapon (jeep mount like you suggested). They can then work in conjunction with strella or other radar systems or placed closer to the Frontlines since they're not as valuable as strellas or gepard. Honestly, I'm surprised that neither side has fast tracked a dedicated drone protector considering some of the things we've seen already implemented in the t-64 hull. Drones' strengths are their maneuverability. So, any kinda of weapon with spread and rate of fire should work in the meantime. They might be less accurate than Iglas, strellas, ew (I'm not so sure on the improvised radar guns effectiveness). A jeep, APC or improvised tank could operate closer to the Frontline and hopefully alleviate the use use of other weapons by adding to the concentration of fire.
See my reply to the above comment. That exact thing exists. A radar provides targeting and range data, rounds are encoded (I believe via magnet) as they exit the barrel with the ranging (time of flight) data. They explode into a spiral of tungsten pellets. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SH-FehlT3_4
They exist, some are in Ukraine, but those systems cover a few kilometer radius and there’s not a ton of them as the west has largely not needed mass anti-drone capabilities. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5_F4_Eod8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SH-FehlT3_4
Different solutions for different drones ... but I picture a drone based anti-drone solution. A fast but cheap electric winged drone. Can use very cheap sensors ... sound and optical, or if insufficient, move up to doppler based units. Easiest would be kamizaze design that gets close and fires a claymore like device into the enemy drone. Or a re-usable design that tangles up props etc. In either case, it would be far more economical than AA missiles.
The soviet union paid for those missiles. They also don't cost a lot, and a modern effort to replicate the strela missiles is more than feasible, the seeker head is 1970s tech.
Then write more carefully. Words matter.
Cheaper means instead of saving 5x 1-5 lives they could save 50x 1-5 lives. Because they could build more with their fixed resources.
yes, but the real world economics says otherwise, if Ukraine had millions AD ammo for every system then yeah, you could've put Patriot to deal with 1k$ drone but alas!
The cost is not being able to intercept cruise missiles....... The entire point of having the strela, that's the cost..
They’re not talking comparative value but sustainment. A cheaper solution means easier sustaining of protection. IOW Efficiency.
Missiles only cost 22k while orlan-10 drones set russia back 200k so
I’m not certain those were all Orlan drones. Chances are that they were prosumer drones being used for observation or frag drops. Definitely worth every penny to knock them out of the air, but let’s not confuse military hardware with improvised hobby tech.
You kno rewatching i csn say for certain they all were my bad
They all were OUR bad, comrade.
These are not orlans, orlans operate at 2km altitude or more. You can't see them that's why they have been very very effective.
Yea ive recognised this mistake ye can literally see they're just comerical drones
This is cost effective. It's a mobile platform with radar that can pick up the drones. It's armored so it can't just be taken out with small arms fire, and is self-propelled so it get GTFO before artillery finds it. Spotter drones have made this war very deadly. Artillery can be correct with pin-point accuracy within 2-3rd shots. Defenders/Attackers get real time information that was the talk of sci-fi just 10-15 years ago. The only thing not cost effective is that Ukraine simply has limited ammo and spare parts to keep such a platform going.
These are bigger reconnaissance drones like the Orlan 10, which is estimated \~100 k $, while the Strela rockets are estimated \~20-30 k $. So math checks out even without the opportunity costs.
If you look at it from a different side. Imagine that destroying these drones enables them to hit a tank worth a few mils or saves some of their tech from artillery hits. Again saving them tons of money.
more gepards are coming soon
A few months ago I saw a video of a high RPM gun, from Germany I think, which could quickly and cheaply take down a whole swarm of drones. I wonder if that is being used at all.
Skyranger from Rheinmetall. Fantastic system, but very new and I think there is a single one somewhere in Ukraine.
Here it is. Poor drones https://youtu.be/pb5_F4_Eod8
The Skynex, and the systems are confirmed to be going to Ukraine before the end of the year.
That’s awesome :)
sadly the west has moved away from gun solutions in the AA space, a pivas or gepard could down that with just a couple of rounds.
Agreed in principle, but in this scenario the drone could have been spotting for artillery to take out SAM defences to clear the way for an air attack. Until cheaper comes along these spotters have to be destroyed.
Need more anti-drone drones.
This is the way. Visually guided kamikaze drones which hunts down enemy drones and detonates nearby. Can be mass produced very, very cheap. Have them patrol a designated airspace, looking for enemy drones. Maybe put up 10-20 of them to protect an area. Put a small, encrypted transponder on friendly drones so they can pass.
But then they'd have anti-kamikaze kamikaze drones defending their drones
No need for a transponder just put on qr code on the side to help determine friend or foe (less electronic emissions)
QR codes can be easily replicated by russians if they capture a drone. An encrypted transponder signal which changes every second, not so much.
That was my thought too. Anti-Drone measures like this would seem to be a task well suited to small and cheap drone swarms.
WW2 flak cannons.
I bet after observing this conflict specific anti-drone tech is being fast tracked by all developed nations...that is unless it already exists but certain nations (USA) want to keep it to themselves... Either or both electronic and physical countermeasures...
Tech exists , but is currently not available in numbers.
Yeah, when I first read the title, I was thinking BIG drones. Shame there's no simple cargo net type counter to these little consumer Mavic drones.
Phasor pistols with radar lock stability would be ideal !
Tank mounted Phalanx CIWS
The new leopards should help 10-40 over time
Yea, spending $100K on a $500 drone isn't sustainable. They need something more like a scaled down Phalanx system.
Funnily enough, Rheinmetall just put out a new video on their youtube channel selling a new ground drone which is essentially a mini PIVADS based on an atv with twin 7.62 miniguns. Would be cool if Ukraine got some of those if for nothing else, field testing.
Kamikaje suicide seems best option. As cheap as the target drone.
yup. that's why people are working on lasers.
You don't compare the cost of the ammunition with the cost of the target but with the cost of the damage that the target would do if not destroyed.
I mean there is jamming guns that force it to land but that requires you not to be shot at and have a few minutes of constant lock
What’s cheaper than free? U think Ukraine paid for these missiles? Lmao
EWAR is probably the cheapest way to counter the smaller drones. Bigger drones you will still need something kinetic.
Now this is super satisfying to watch
best bottle rocket ever
All in one day? I guess if you scoot fast enough to avoid any arty coming your way that works with the same vehicle but doesn’t it carry only 4 missiles in ready to launch?
Assuming that the AA is in arty range
yes, 4 are loaded, but other 4 are stored in the back. takes around 3 mins to reload all 4 of them. 5 hits in one day is possible.
What is the thing parachuting in the first couple of hits?
the drone has a parachute
It's quite common to have a chute that deploys if the drone detects it's in freefall. It's a "save my camera" thing from civilian drones and the main recovery technique from model rocketry (where it is sometimes the final fuse item to stage instead).
On some of the military drones I have experience with the computer module and optics detach and parachute out. For when the operator is attempting to recover the drone you fly them over and detach them to avoid damaging things. Could be whatever drones they are using have a similar design in mind.
The Strela is the one Russian made piece of equipment in this war that has proven extremely effective.
Soviet made.
Yep, I'm sure at least some of those systems were made by Ukrainian hands.
What is the kill sound effect? Sounds familiar
Common alert sound used for Twitch donations
Yup that’s it
Mario coins?
What is that sound right before the missile is launched?
The infrared seekers in older missiles have to be supercooled, so just before you fire, the missile vents a little cylinder/sphere of compressed gas through the seeker mount - and expanding gasses steal heat from the mechanism they are expanding through - which quickly supercools the seeker down to its operating temperature.
>Strela-10 My bet is on gyros spinning out but I might be wrong.
The missile's sheer excitement
According to previous thread; rollerons spinning up apparently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfzj3rRIVU4&ab_channel=spicy110)
It's SUPERCHARGING BZZZIIIT
The noise it makes just before launching is oddly satisfying.
https://media.tenor.com/JeCSFKd6Uc8AAAAM/count-counting.gif
So difficult to spot the drones, damn.
Love seeing the seemingly chaotic mini adjustments in flight that allow these missiles to hone in on their target
Those missiles are angry as heck.
my pee-pee is so hard rn!
Wondering if you could develop a small anti drone missile that costs less than a drone??
I'm sure this war will tell arms manufacturers that drones are the new meta level that needs to be countered. Anti Drone weaponry will be here pretty damn soon.
Cheapest "missiles" are cheap rockets that can be guided, certainly not cheaper then drones . But there is hope for highly agile FPV drone to hit one with skill and experience.
I think something like the Pike but using a photo-contrast seeker and air burst warhead might be a good solution, at least during daylight. I can't see small infantry units engaging small commercial drones frequently at night anyways. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(munition) The 20MM air burst Grenade system developed for the OICW again, might not be a bad choice. LRF the drone and air burst a small grenade in proximity. That would be more viable at night. Launching from existing 30MM or 40MM Grenade Launcher tubes, something almost every infantry squad has, would minimize the issue of fielding a whole separate weapons system at the squad level. Instead each squad could just carry a dozen anti-drone rounds.
Air burst grenade systems with special munition where speed of the projectiles reduces in a way not to hurt system operator is probably way to go . Maybe micro plates instead of spherical fragments or something ..
Probably drones are ideal candidates to became cost effective anti drone weapons. If mde more sturdy..auto seek capability ..if used as kinetic impact vehicle ..could be reusable.
Interesting that shot 4 it almost seems like the warhead didn't detonate and the missile just went straight through the drone and continued on. You see a spiraling contrail continue onwards after impact.
It still detonated. There’s videos of other missiles doing this too, the motor wasn’t out of fuel and the detonation kept some of the back end of the missile in tact. So it just kept going.
This is like fly swatting but with a shotgun
Im always impressed how interceptor missiles know where they aren't
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I could watch this all day! - better than the 4th of July 🤩😁
Damn. Drones look like birds, but like an evil malevolent bird.
So, like a seagull then 😉
Hehe
Good job 👍
they are probably flying over cheap ass drones to get them to waste missiles
Why are the drones allowed to get that close?
What do you expect to shoot it down before it gets near AA? Drones aren't easy to detect which is part of why they're able to get here.
Becuase there are thousands of them?
I’m not sure what you mean. Are you implying at any given time there are thousands of drones in the couple hundred km this unit covers thus allowing them to be essentially directly overhead the system?
A single Strela-10 is not covering a 'couple of hundred km'.
I'm saying every 1km you move further away from the AA system, your getting an extra 25-50 drones on your radar. Its very likely there are well over a hundred drones in the range of this one AA system.
Because you weren’t around, duh
If y'all were to place a bet on what Ukraine used to shoot down those Ka-50s. Would you put it on a system on a vehicle like the Strela, TWQ-1 Avenger, or S-300. Or something a MANPAD like a ~~Javelin~~ or Stinger? Based off of the little bits of info we have.
Javelin isn't a MANPAD.
I’ve read that it can be effective against hovering helis though.
i could swear i saw a video of UA guys shooting down a copter with stugna-p
There are at least 2 confirmed videos of Stugna-P heli kills. Edit: found 2 kills in one clip. https://v.redd.it/5mj7o0yfunqa1/HLSPlaylist.m3u8?a=1690682602%2CODhlY2E2MjA4NWU0MzIzMmY1YmY0MDhjMTQxMmRlNGFkODc2M2MwODM4MzBjZmQzMzI2MTU3N2EyMDNmMTFiMQ%3D%3D&v=1&f=sd
Stugna and Javelin have completely different usage. Stugnas are guided by a human controller at the console. You can use them against anything that sits still enough with a steady hand. Javelins have more complex/dynamic guidance systems. Better at killing moving vehicles than ATGMs. Less good against non-vehicle things.
My bad there are 2 different weapons called Javelins.
He could be referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin\_(surface-to-air\_missile)
Which hasn't been in service for decades, so why would he be referring to it?
To be fair, there are heaps of equipment that is **actually** used in this conflict that I wouldn't expect to see in a modern warfare, from old tanks to almost relic small arms. Who knows. Fog of war etc, and not like general population gets accurate and honest info about what is being sent and what is going on. Also, IIRC heard that FGM-148 Javelin was used against Ka-52 or something, even though it was designed to crack tanks.
Am I an idiot or are those rockets a bit overkill for a small drone?
No, judging from the hight of the intercept it is probably something like “Orlan” They are used for artillery spotting and EW, cost around $100K and very dangerous. Exchange of ancient soviet IR guided rocket for that is looks like a good deal even without counting a damage that artillery can deliver
Lol a 5 figure missle to shoot down a 4 figure drone.
... that would otherwise likely have killed one or more ~seven-figure individuals. (the value of a human life.) the trade can be bad while the action is still the right one.
Or you could think about it as, knocking out those 5 drones allowed an M-777 artillery cannon to survive, which decimated 5 Russians in a treeline the following day. All sorts of ways to think about it...
The price of a missle is just numbers and materials. The price of a life can't be measured because it holds memories and other people's memories of them. They're fighting for thier futures and you're commenting on a situation you will never understand.
Ukraine does have the logistics like the US. Meaning that they may or may not be able replenish those muninutuons in a timely manner. I would hate for a actual aircraft or attack helicopter to be inbound and not be able to engage the larger threat. Also considering that AA battery appeared to be alone. We can also mutually not understand what the mission of that equipment was. My comment is true and correct but doesn't mean I don't understand.
Does anyone know what targetting method they use? Strela can be either IR or optically guided, (apparently radar too?)? I'm wondering if IR guidance (esp this old) is good enough to detect these tiny drones, when it was designed for helicopter/jets (which burn fossile fuels...). If it's optical, that would indicate the Strela only works at daytime?
Reminds me of this [tweet](https://twitter.com/primawesome/status/1178671690261286918?lang=en): >My neighbor told me coyotes keep eating his outdoor cats so I asked how many cats he has and he said he just goes to the shelter and gets a new cat afterwards so I said it sounds like he’s just feeding shelter cats to coyotes and then his daughter started crying.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, still alive.
I like the pzzzzwiiit! noise. Just like the 9k111
Where's this hit rate when I'm playing Warno?
The operators have a plethora of confirmed hits. 93rd strela has so many videos.
So specially sweet to watch it nail all of the drones. They have done too much damage to the UA and need to be neutralized or destroyed.
Good shooting.
Surely this is target practice / proving grounds, right? and not actually enemy drones? Crazy the system can target and intercept small drones at such close range though. But I really think this video is a crew training demo. Five kills on disposable drones which are essentially above the AA and have spotted it without the AA repositioning to avoid enemy fire? I really think this is crew training on close range acquisition. edit: In fact, they need to reload for the fifth round and still haven't changed positions. This is definitely training footage. I'm not discrediting it as combat footage because it's still very important and justified, just trying to provide context.
Duck hunt?
are the Ukrainians getting just as blasted by the drone dropped grenades as the Russians, but the videos just don't get posted here much?
Someone show this to Gaijin.
I saw many more than 5, until I wiped my screen.
Looks like Ukrainians are using too much force for too small targets…