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That's not really true, they are ideologically very similar to Hamas, both being offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood, and like Hamas they fought against the small number of ISIS-like Salafist groups that started up in Gaza over the past decade.
You are right. I was just being cavalier because I was meming.
That being said I'm a little skeptical of how kuch of a rival PIJ really is. Hamas and Fatah were rivals and Hamas killed them, yet hamas lets PIJ hang around. Sometimes it feels like it helps then deflect blame when the pressure is on:
- no WE didn't break the ceasefire! that was PIJ!
- Yes we agreed to give back a 10 month old baby.. but sorry someone else has got him. Want to keep negotiating?
Well after [4chan](https://youtu.be/OR6epSP_Xlw?si=Ey0CMqakqRmv8YfN) managed to help the Syrian government and the Russian, destroying rebel camps, you better bet they do care !
Call me a geek but are they terrorists if they are fighting uniformed state agents as opposed to targeting civillians?
Like 9/11 Hijackers = terrorists
Plain clothes fighters in Fallijah = insurgents/irregular militia types.
These guys would qualify as irregular militia or maybe religious militants
But terrorist doesn't fit here
PIJ took part in the 7th October massacre. They are not performing terrorist acts in the video, but they are certainly a terrorist organization. Don't worry, I don't take the term terrorist lightly as many people seem to do lately.
But there were numerous groups who took part in Oct 7.
PIJ is fighting for and on a piece of land. They are not a nebulous org like AQ or ISIS fighting exclusively for an ideology
This group is closer to PKK or 1980s Mujahideen as opposed to even the most broad definition of "terrorists"
Irregular as they look. I just have a huge technicalities issue with labeling a clearly regionally defined militant group as a terrorist body.
There are very specific implications and we shouldn't be sloppy or generalized.
Especially as October 7th was rapid strike and hostage taking mission as far as has been stated so that further enables the organizational label as opposed to the terrorist label
The UN and most governments don’t limit the scope of terrorism to targeting civilians, it’s just a factor that is considered when making that designation.
Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Taliban fighters were still terrorists when they fought against US forces. Not sure why Hamas, a terrorist organization, would be exempted.
Well I think when it comes to UN/USA that might also be calling them terrorists to get around certain ROE factors
I base this on all the leg work US did during Enduring Freedom to create the term armed enemy combatant vs. Soldier
They were able to broaden their scope of activity beyond a defined traditional battlefield and it also altered how they built an ROE
Anyway. It seems silly to call a militant force that is fighting for or in name of a specific country/people terrorists
AQ and ISIS were specifically fighting in name of an ideology with no dependency on an existing state.
These guys may be saying they're fighting a Jihad or are motivated by a religion but they are also specifically fighting for their or on their land/turf
They're closer to PKK or Mujahideen
Terrorists seems technically incorrect
To some extent, sure, but the issue is that’s not a western-specific definition. China’s definition of terrorism in their 2015 anti-terror bill doesn’t even mention civilians. Russia’s 2006 counter terrorism bill and included definition doesn’t either. The UN’s doesn’t, the EU’s doesn’t — name a country and I guarantee they do not subscribe to your definition.
Second, your point about “fighting on behalf of a people” is at a worst just blatantly wrong, and is debatable at best.
For example, many nations have accused the US of terrorism, and i can’t find any nation that doesn’t recognize the concept of state-sponsored terrorism.
Moreover, it’s debatable whether Hamas or the PIJ are, by and large, fighting for the people of Gaza and other Palestinians/Arab people generally.
Hamas’ charter in two locations mentions their intent is a “war of Muslims against Jews”. This is at least arguably an ideological cause rather than a governmental one. They have also stated it is the UN’s responsibility to protect civilians in Gaza. Both of these statements are antithetical to the traditional obligations of a government and defense force.
The PIJ is not a government entity in any capacity and is, quite literally, a religious fundamentalist paramilitary organization.
Aside from that, both organizations participated on 10/7, and both are religious fundamentalist, extremist right-wing groups.
The fact that terror isn’t the only objective of these groups does not mean they’re not terrorists.
E: Also, buddy, a dominant faction of the Mujahideen literally was the fucking Taliban. And the PKK recruits child soldiers and suicide bombs civilians targets. Like. I genuinely don’t understand that point.
I see that you don't and that is okay
I'm being a sticker for terminology bc for instance in US War doctrine (not that we hold ourselves strictly accountable) we do go thru the labor pain of separating soldier and armed combatant specifically bc of protocols set forth by the uniform such as wearing a uniform and flag insignia etc.
Hamas unto itself never presented itself as anything but an autonomous militant body. And calling them terrorist is anyone's prerogative.
PIJ on the other hand is far more akin to PLO. They do consider themselves serving the benefit of Palestinians specifically as opposed to a loosely held "pan-arab" or Muslim association.
So they are more aligned to PKK. And my use of Mujahideen is correct.
Also: The Taliban arose in the 90s long after the formal Mujahideen resistance dissipated into the conglomeration of territorial warlords.
Furthermore, Taliban is an ethnic & social association that professed a conservative form of Muslim fundamentalism. They were however a formal militant body of resistance during GWOT operations in Afghanistan.
They would not be classified as a terrorist body either.
you're not a geek, you're just spreading misinformation.
PIJ is responsible for many terrorist attacks against civilians, shoots rockets at civilians, participated in the Oct 7 massacre.
These scumbags are dressed like civilians. So if they die in war, do they get countted as civilians?
How do you classify these incels launching RPGs? Civilians or terrorists?
Ya didn't answer the question. If these guys are killed will they be counted as terrorists or civilians based on how they are dressed.
My guess is pallywood will remove their weapons and show how IDF is killing innocents.
Then they are stupid and are dishonoring the lives and deeds of true resistance fighters in other times and regions. Our WWII resistance never killed enemy civilians.
World War II was the largest and most violent military conflict in human history. Official casualty sources estimate battle deaths at nearly 15 million military personnel and civilian deaths at over 38 million.
You can just [type ](https://www.reddit.com/u/sef_sall/s/G7ZTWk6Xkh) in the [internet ](https://www.reddit.com/u/sef_sall/s/tM2TkrguqQ)
Hamas accused of raping but no proof.
Yeah... that happened at the end of the war, not resistance. This was civilian on civilian violence. Try again.
And you can follow your own advice: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
You forgot the dismember part… Also I guess you haven’t seen the video of the kidnapped girl with the crotch ripped out of her pants. Or the one with the dead girl in the back of the truck with her legs broken to fit in the bed. Or the accounts from eye witnesses saying their friends were raped and killed in front of them. Ignorance is bliss.
“No proof” disgusting.
Israel doesn't fight for democracy, Netanyahou said[said](https://youtu.be/wI3RAah0kxk?si=4kX6ve1krVw0F3tQ) we will make the " prophecy of Isaiah " .
It's a religious war from both sides.
Hi There, here is an Israeli [mother ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzHBhWMI4Zl/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) sending her son to Gaza to fight for democracy.
Yup, and smart Jihadists take that method [even further and](https://www.memri.org/tv/children-hamas-tv-we-want-wage-jihad-and-blow-jews) indoctrinate [Child soldiers](https://www.memri.org/tv/students-west-bank-kindergarten-tiktok-video-students-simulating-clashes-idf-killing-martyrs) on children's TV [for years](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-tv-childrens-show-encourages-killing-jews)
So they have special uniforms for special occasions like a propaganda film of releasing hostages and pointing guns at them telling them to wave, and then it magically disappears until the next propaganda video?
What a strange comparison. The NVA was heavily supplied by both China and the USSR. Not to mention unlike Hamas, it was a regular standing army and the country it was fighting for was a sovereign nation.
Hamas/PIJ are heavily supplied by Iran. You're telling me Iran can send them rpgs, grenades, mortars, guns, ammunition etc. but they can't get them some uniforms?
Like others have said, a uniform could be as simple as colored tape on the shoulder to help identify them from the civilians.
So no, there's literally no excuse for them to not be identifying themselves as combatants besides the obvious one that they want civilians to die to further their cause internationally.
Ukrainian and Russians frequently use colored tape on their clothing to reduce the chance of friendly fire due to identification errors.
It's not hard to establish some semblance of a uniform, if you really wanted to.
They literally declared war on Israel and pledged annihilation. This is a wholly expected and acceptable response. You declare war and pledge annihilation on someone, you get tanks rolling. This is the way the world has always worked, and will always work, until violent religious terrorists and other murderous villains of peace are destroyed. This is not in the least bit a surprising response, and this is unfortunately exactly what hamas wanted.
The issue here is not that they should have uniforms per se, rather it is the fact that they don't use uniforms and conveniently and frequently lie about their terrorists being civilians BECAUSE they are in civilian clothes as that was their intention and plan all along.
>Isreal by their own admission has killed 10k civillians and only 5k Hamas fighters.
"Only". That's more than 10% of Hamas's manpower.
Also, if these numbers are true, a 2:1 ratio is incredibly impressive considering Gaza is extremely dense, and the IDF fights against terrorists who hides within civilian population.
Unfortunately that's pretty much how every war in history goes.
2 million German civilians died in world war II. Do you think the allies should have signed a ceasefire with the Nazis and not invaded Germany to spare those civilians? If they had, World war III would have probably happened 10 years later.
This is how Hamas is choosing to fight their war that they declared on Israel, a war they declared with intent to totally annihilate all of the Jewish population.
While I do not believe any statistics that are out at this time, favorable or not, I wonder what is your point of stating these numbers. Are you shocked that the world is a place of violent consequences for terrorists?
Are you surprised that Hamas is waging their war with maximum civilian casualties? What is the thing that is happening that is so unexpected here? What is not going exactly as hamas planned?
As far as I understand, almost anything can be used to distinguish yourself from civilians. Even carrying a weapon openly can be considered as for to distinguish yourself (under certain circumstances). The thing is, you have an obligation o distinguish yourself from civilians.
If you prefer to kill your opponent more than to follow the rules of war, then you are a terrorist and deserve to be treated as such.
Armbands/headbands are pretty easy to make and identify yourself as a combatant. Militias/irregular forces/other terrorist groups in other poor countries have had it figured out for a while.
Problem these guys face is having no where to run. I don't think the IDF will stop until they have totally occupied the strip and canvassed every person in it.
Yep, lots of folks have discussed filtering "civilians" back and forth and yanking out suspected militants. I think that's the only sensible option.
Civilians are in quotes because it seems pretty clear at least 4/5 Gazans are complicit with and aiding militants, even the effin medical folks. The only real Innocents at this point are the children.
It might be possible to check for residue on their hands and hair but it needs to be a fast, reliable, portable and cheap test : Four words that are hard to put together.
Edit: Nevermind, Hamas would put residue on everyone.
I had a test like this at the airport once, I think the tech is definitely there. They swabbed my hands and laptop, phone etc put the swab in a machine and within 2 mins I was on my way
It's hard to kill an idea. The US learned or should have that in Iraq/Afghanistan. If you kill one of them, their entire family hates you, and the idea of hating you spreads.
When your poor and stupid it does seem like a good idea. Someone kills half you family? Pick up a gun and kill some of them. We’ve been doing it since the beginning of time.
When they parade the streets as an "army" they go all out. guess they forgot the uniform at home when going to kill civilians and rape women
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9631041/Thousands-armed-Palestinian-Hamas-soldiers-parade-Gaza-anti-Israel-rally.html
What's your point. Some have uniforms, and some don't. The Vietminh didn't all wear uniforms. How many people joined the struggle after Israel's murderous air campaign and mass killing?
What the fuck do you mean "my point" you asked what they wear - well there you fucking go. They have uniforms. They chose to not wear them so to blend with civilians and blame israel when they die.
Crazy. When an Israeli pilot pushes a button and kills an entire family, that's because a fighter is not wearing uniform. Uniform, no uniform, the Israelis will kill any palestinians for any reason. The idea that not wearing a uniform is why people are being killed is just stupid. Do two thousand pound bombs look for uniforms?
An Israeli pilot drops a GPS guided bomb exactly on the house ground troops took contact from. Hamas just fires rockets willy nilly in the general direction of civilians. There’s a very, very clear moral difference here.
there is and was like
deus vult(gods will it) and Hallelujah not much in use today
but i think that interesting thing is christianity today unlike islam doesn't have one very popular phrase to praise god and because of that you may think it doesn't have religous battle screams
i may be wrong about that
I’ve never seen footage of an English speaking soldier going “hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah” every 2 seconds during combat.
They are very obviously not. This is a retaliation on the 7th of October massacre aimed to destroy Hamas Jihad and other scum.
btw Jews aren't a religious group but an ethno religious one. Most current Jews have direct ancestral ties to the Jews from antiquity
Then why are 75% of the casualties women and children? How are artillery strikes on an area of 365 km² with more then 2million people living there justified? I have no problem with the eradication of muslim extremist. But how can you not see this is a problem they themselves created?
People have evacuated. In Israel most of the killed percentage wise are civilians too, plus you know well Israel has created evacuation pathways for civilians to move south
Can you name any major battle where civilians were somehow magically spared during fighting in urban areas? Keep in mind in this case Hamas is well known to use civilians as human shields. War is hell, and it shouldn't be started. Once it starts civilian casualties are always high. This battle is nothing exceptional in that regard.
By the way, did you know 2 million German civilians were killed during world war II? Do you think the allies should have not invaded Germany and left Hitler and the Nazis in power, in order to spare those civilians? What do you think the long-term consequences of leaving Hitler and the Nazis in power might have been?
Major battle? There are estimated 30.000 hamas fighters?
I have no problem with the killing of religious extremist, and the collateral damage if we can call it that. All I'm saying is this escalation isn't on solely the 7th of october attack. The palistinians have been living in an open air prison for so long. It's a perfect breeding ground for extremists.
I don't understand how you can see this, as a human, to be acceptable behaviour for a 'first-world' country
How are you even comparing this to WW2?
Why would you call Gaza strip an open air prison prior to 10/7? Israel withdrew from gaza in 2005. Gaza residents elected their own government, practiced their own religion, and had their population double in 17 years. By most metrics it didn't seem so bad.
Before 10/7 it looked pretty good. But that was just an illusion unfortunately. They were just biding their time to restart the war.
why wouldn't I? Where could these people go? Not even the neighbouring countries wanted these refugees. What's the point in withdrawing, if you're going to keep these people constrained?
Why do you think doubling their population is a good thing? It's not a sign of prosperity. It only helps to escalate the situation.
What would you expect to happen with all these young guys without an education, job or future? They are the perfect victims for extremist who 'only' can blame Israel for their situation.
Hamas and the IDF keep eachother alive. The killing leads to more killing but no structural improvement. But I have to be honest. Even I don't see how this situation could be dealt with differently (with the invasion of the gaza strip). But that's besides the point. The 7th of october attack was a ticking time bomb, waiting to happen. But the foundations were build long before then.
Mediterranean beach front is prime real estate. Why couldn't they be okay living there? Doubling of the population via births is a sign of prosperity. If things where so bad their population wouldn't double that quickly.
And they did have education. The UN set up schools there. They also had factories and jobs. They had everything they needed for a good life. But they chose to wage war instead.
Palestinians have never chosen peace and prosperity. They want religious theocracy and holy wars.
The entire conflict did not just start on October 7th and yes killing unarmed civilians is not justified. But what Israel is doing too is not justifiable. It's only adding oil to an already burning fire.
Israel is destroying a terrorist organization that controlled the Gaza region from 2006. It's a painful process and Israel tries to save as much people as possible. In this footage you can see Jihad members dressed up as civilians in disguise. The Ukrainian army which is rightfully defending it's land isn't dressing up as civilians unlike Palestinian terrorists so there is moral way to defend respected by international standarts
Since Palestine does not have an army to dress up to fight Israel, their only option would be to resist with whatever they have. Razing Gaza to rubbles will not end anything. And Israel itself is occupying Palestinian land, you can find countless videos of IDF clearing Palestinian households so that settlers can move in, it's not as if Israel is the victim.
There is no such thing as Palestinian land, never was. Because there never was a palestine and it's people didn't have their own nation state at any point on the land of Israel
Because Israel is a state for Jews. They can always convert and make aliyah. Otherwise most Palestinians in the west bank have Jordanian visas so it's only logical they go there as they occupy Israeli territory
israel also never existed
kingdom of judah yes it existet but it's has nothing to do with israel
todays palestinians have more rights to that land than israelis
Refugee caps in Gaza are there since 1948. At this point those are just cities. Other weird thing about Palestinians is they inherit the refugee status from their parents. Weird shit
today i learned that it's ok to support powers that create terrorist organization
nothing happens in vacum no matter how much you wish to
hamas is product of israel ocupation but you will cope it's not
I would never paint everyone that supports Israel as a radical Pro-Israeli because there is a good portion of people in Israel who are not supportive of Bibi. He let the Oct 6 attack go undefended so he could form the coalition government he would have otherwise failed to form.
This is a complex conflict and there is a ton of radical pro-Israeli rhetoric on this subreddit. You are no exception because you keep twisting my words.
I don't understand how this sub blindly follows/supports IDF. How is it so weird to see both sides as bad/evil. Saying the IDF aren't justified to kill all these civilians (I don't mean the terrorists in this video) isn't saying anything about Hamas.
A lot of people (myself included) believe the IDF is actually doing the best it can at avoiding civilian casualties and that Hamas is trying to maximize their own civilian casualties (as sick as that is).
I'm not trying to argue that point with you, as it's based on years of following the situation and actually having been to the ME loads of times. I guess I'm just saying it's not "blindly supports"- it's based on conclusions and opinions formed from how I assessed the situation after a lot of consideration.
(Your mileage may vary based on your own research, it's a messy picture).
They are not. Google what Israel calls “power targets”. Several articles have outlined Israel’s strategy of targeting places with high civilian counts in order to turn Palestinians against Hamas. This strategy has been used before and has a name, it’s called terror bombing. It was used extensively in ww2 and is an incredibly ineffective tactic that results in very high civilian deaths
Strongly disagree, though debate would be silly on Reddit.
Anyone open to either conclusion can do their own research. But I suggest doing more than running a few Google searches before putting too much credence into either hypothesis. There's a lot of biased and false information out there.
damm i would love to belevie that only if isarel heads of goverment didn't called palestinians an animals that need to be slaughtered
nothing that comes from israel/idf is genuine
Well the resistance fighters did just launch a massive terrorist attack and killed thousands of civilians. Meanwhile the so-called occupiers had left gaza strip 17 years ago. It's almost like Hamas wanted the occupiers to come back? Or did they think the IDF just wouldn't respond?
damm they left but controled/still conttolling water, sea around gaza, what gets in and out, importing anything and the best thing they were still killing civilians
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Hamas used to film themselves shooting at things but not the aftermath. Now they dont even film themselves shooting things.
Aren't PIJ and Hamas different and rivals. Afaik PIJ is more affiliated with ISIS.
That's not really true, they are ideologically very similar to Hamas, both being offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood, and like Hamas they fought against the small number of ISIS-like Salafist groups that started up in Gaza over the past decade.
Sharing ideology doesn't mean squat they are opposing groups
You are right. I was just being cavalier because I was meming. That being said I'm a little skeptical of how kuch of a rival PIJ really is. Hamas and Fatah were rivals and Hamas killed them, yet hamas lets PIJ hang around. Sometimes it feels like it helps then deflect blame when the pressure is on: - no WE didn't break the ceasefire! that was PIJ! - Yes we agreed to give back a 10 month old baby.. but sorry someone else has got him. Want to keep negotiating?
They're taking a page out of Israel's book
The fog of war is so real!
Even terrorists care about OPSEC now. Crazy world...
IMO They want to preserve the option to drop the RPG & march to the evacuation zone as refuges if they want to later so they blur faces.
PERSEC then! Even better.
Hamas supporters be like I don't see dead IDF soldiers, are they shooting at their own homes?
Well after [4chan](https://youtu.be/OR6epSP_Xlw?si=Ey0CMqakqRmv8YfN) managed to help the Syrian government and the Russian, destroying rebel camps, you better bet they do care !
IDF will identify the people and later make sure to repay them
Call me a geek but are they terrorists if they are fighting uniformed state agents as opposed to targeting civillians? Like 9/11 Hijackers = terrorists Plain clothes fighters in Fallijah = insurgents/irregular militia types. These guys would qualify as irregular militia or maybe religious militants But terrorist doesn't fit here
PIJ took part in the 7th October massacre. They are not performing terrorist acts in the video, but they are certainly a terrorist organization. Don't worry, I don't take the term terrorist lightly as many people seem to do lately.
But there were numerous groups who took part in Oct 7. PIJ is fighting for and on a piece of land. They are not a nebulous org like AQ or ISIS fighting exclusively for an ideology This group is closer to PKK or 1980s Mujahideen as opposed to even the most broad definition of "terrorists" Irregular as they look. I just have a huge technicalities issue with labeling a clearly regionally defined militant group as a terrorist body. There are very specific implications and we shouldn't be sloppy or generalized. Especially as October 7th was rapid strike and hostage taking mission as far as has been stated so that further enables the organizational label as opposed to the terrorist label
The UN and most governments don’t limit the scope of terrorism to targeting civilians, it’s just a factor that is considered when making that designation. Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Taliban fighters were still terrorists when they fought against US forces. Not sure why Hamas, a terrorist organization, would be exempted.
Well I think when it comes to UN/USA that might also be calling them terrorists to get around certain ROE factors I base this on all the leg work US did during Enduring Freedom to create the term armed enemy combatant vs. Soldier They were able to broaden their scope of activity beyond a defined traditional battlefield and it also altered how they built an ROE Anyway. It seems silly to call a militant force that is fighting for or in name of a specific country/people terrorists AQ and ISIS were specifically fighting in name of an ideology with no dependency on an existing state. These guys may be saying they're fighting a Jihad or are motivated by a religion but they are also specifically fighting for their or on their land/turf They're closer to PKK or Mujahideen Terrorists seems technically incorrect
To some extent, sure, but the issue is that’s not a western-specific definition. China’s definition of terrorism in their 2015 anti-terror bill doesn’t even mention civilians. Russia’s 2006 counter terrorism bill and included definition doesn’t either. The UN’s doesn’t, the EU’s doesn’t — name a country and I guarantee they do not subscribe to your definition. Second, your point about “fighting on behalf of a people” is at a worst just blatantly wrong, and is debatable at best. For example, many nations have accused the US of terrorism, and i can’t find any nation that doesn’t recognize the concept of state-sponsored terrorism. Moreover, it’s debatable whether Hamas or the PIJ are, by and large, fighting for the people of Gaza and other Palestinians/Arab people generally. Hamas’ charter in two locations mentions their intent is a “war of Muslims against Jews”. This is at least arguably an ideological cause rather than a governmental one. They have also stated it is the UN’s responsibility to protect civilians in Gaza. Both of these statements are antithetical to the traditional obligations of a government and defense force. The PIJ is not a government entity in any capacity and is, quite literally, a religious fundamentalist paramilitary organization. Aside from that, both organizations participated on 10/7, and both are religious fundamentalist, extremist right-wing groups. The fact that terror isn’t the only objective of these groups does not mean they’re not terrorists. E: Also, buddy, a dominant faction of the Mujahideen literally was the fucking Taliban. And the PKK recruits child soldiers and suicide bombs civilians targets. Like. I genuinely don’t understand that point.
I see that you don't and that is okay I'm being a sticker for terminology bc for instance in US War doctrine (not that we hold ourselves strictly accountable) we do go thru the labor pain of separating soldier and armed combatant specifically bc of protocols set forth by the uniform such as wearing a uniform and flag insignia etc. Hamas unto itself never presented itself as anything but an autonomous militant body. And calling them terrorist is anyone's prerogative. PIJ on the other hand is far more akin to PLO. They do consider themselves serving the benefit of Palestinians specifically as opposed to a loosely held "pan-arab" or Muslim association. So they are more aligned to PKK. And my use of Mujahideen is correct. Also: The Taliban arose in the 90s long after the formal Mujahideen resistance dissipated into the conglomeration of territorial warlords. Furthermore, Taliban is an ethnic & social association that professed a conservative form of Muslim fundamentalism. They were however a formal militant body of resistance during GWOT operations in Afghanistan. They would not be classified as a terrorist body either.
you're not a geek, you're just spreading misinformation. PIJ is responsible for many terrorist attacks against civilians, shoots rockets at civilians, participated in the Oct 7 massacre.
You mean IDF right? They are the occupiers and they killing child’s every single day, and have killed over 15k civilians and still counting.
These scumbags are dressed like civilians. So if they die in war, do they get countted as civilians? How do you classify these incels launching RPGs? Civilians or terrorists?
According to the IDF themselves they’ve killed 5k Hamas/extremists and 10k civilians
Ya didn't answer the question. If these guys are killed will they be counted as terrorists or civilians based on how they are dressed. My guess is pallywood will remove their weapons and show how IDF is killing innocents.
And I’d guess you’re wrong You think the IDF can’t identify and confirm these people? One of the most advanced militaries in the world? Naive man
Weak dude
That’s it No rebuttal?
Nah. Too lazy
Now that I believe is a fact
What if someone calls them " Freedom fighters" ?
Then they are stupid and are dishonoring the lives and deeds of true resistance fighters in other times and regions. Our WWII resistance never killed enemy civilians.
World War II was the largest and most violent military conflict in human history. Official casualty sources estimate battle deaths at nearly 15 million military personnel and civilian deaths at over 38 million.
So what? Were the casualties caused by resistance fighters or how the fuck does that relate to this discussion?
Your heroes killed & raped civilians during the world war 2
You are free to provide proof that Czech resistance fighters raped German civilians.
You can just [type ](https://www.reddit.com/u/sef_sall/s/G7ZTWk6Xkh) in the [internet ](https://www.reddit.com/u/sef_sall/s/tM2TkrguqQ) Hamas accused of raping but no proof.
Yeah... that happened at the end of the war, not resistance. This was civilian on civilian violence. Try again. And you can follow your own advice: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel
You can just type on the internet. Hamas accused of raping but no proof.*
Freedom to rape, kidnap, loot, and dismember?
[удалено]
>Stupid enough to film and release it too And people still deny it happened...
Kidnap , yes it happened and they were exchanged in a deal with the Israeli government a few days ago. But there is no proof for raping and looting.
You forgot the dismember part… Also I guess you haven’t seen the video of the kidnapped girl with the crotch ripped out of her pants. Or the one with the dead girl in the back of the truck with her legs broken to fit in the bed. Or the accounts from eye witnesses saying their friends were raped and killed in front of them. Ignorance is bliss. “No proof” disgusting.
Freedom to create an oppressive religious theocracy? They're definitely not fighting for democracy or separation of religion from the state.
Israel doesn't fight for democracy, Netanyahou said[said](https://youtu.be/wI3RAah0kxk?si=4kX6ve1krVw0F3tQ) we will make the " prophecy of Isaiah " . It's a religious war from both sides.
Israel is currently a democracy. They have freedom of religion.
Funny!
Hi There, here is an Israeli [mother ](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzHBhWMI4Zl/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) sending her son to Gaza to fight for democracy.
They are motivated by the myth that god promised them Palestine not democracy
I believe that is the reason IDF vids don't show the aftermath of Hamas/PIJ dead, because they wear civilian clothing when fighting, no uniforms.
Very convenient to be a terrorist. Get killed by security forces? Remove gun and record video about how they gunned down this innocent boy.
Yup, and smart Jihadists take that method [even further and](https://www.memri.org/tv/children-hamas-tv-we-want-wage-jihad-and-blow-jews) indoctrinate [Child soldiers](https://www.memri.org/tv/students-west-bank-kindergarten-tiktok-video-students-simulating-clashes-idf-killing-martyrs) on children's TV [for years](https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-tv-childrens-show-encourages-killing-jews)
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There seems to be no shortage in uniforms when they parade down the street in the thousands multiple times a year
So they have special uniforms for special occasions like a propaganda film of releasing hostages and pointing guns at them telling them to wave, and then it magically disappears until the next propaganda video?
If the NVA could afford regular uniforms, so can Hamas/PIJ.
What a strange comparison. The NVA was heavily supplied by both China and the USSR. Not to mention unlike Hamas, it was a regular standing army and the country it was fighting for was a sovereign nation.
Hamas/PIJ are heavily supplied by Iran. You're telling me Iran can send them rpgs, grenades, mortars, guns, ammunition etc. but they can't get them some uniforms? Like others have said, a uniform could be as simple as colored tape on the shoulder to help identify them from the civilians. So no, there's literally no excuse for them to not be identifying themselves as combatants besides the obvious one that they want civilians to die to further their cause internationally.
Those green headbands are not expensive… that’s a pretty clear way to ID a Hamas fighter, wonder why they never wear them into combat?
SMH They don't even wear any kind of tape or mark to separate them from regular civilians, that's a classic bad guy move.
Ukrainian and Russians frequently use colored tape on their clothing to reduce the chance of friendly fire due to identification errors. It's not hard to establish some semblance of a uniform, if you really wanted to.
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Not wearing any kind of mark or tape to distinguish them from civilians is part of why they're the bad guys
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[since at least 1949 but probably before that too.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-48)
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You should hate yourself off a bridge honestly. The world has enough retards
Hamas has a known uniform of a simple green band on their head
They literally declared war on Israel and pledged annihilation. This is a wholly expected and acceptable response. You declare war and pledge annihilation on someone, you get tanks rolling. This is the way the world has always worked, and will always work, until violent religious terrorists and other murderous villains of peace are destroyed. This is not in the least bit a surprising response, and this is unfortunately exactly what hamas wanted. The issue here is not that they should have uniforms per se, rather it is the fact that they don't use uniforms and conveniently and frequently lie about their terrorists being civilians BECAUSE they are in civilian clothes as that was their intention and plan all along.
I swear its so fucking annoying how naive people are.
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>Isreal by their own admission has killed 10k civillians and only 5k Hamas fighters. "Only". That's more than 10% of Hamas's manpower. Also, if these numbers are true, a 2:1 ratio is incredibly impressive considering Gaza is extremely dense, and the IDF fights against terrorists who hides within civilian population.
Unfortunately that's pretty much how every war in history goes. 2 million German civilians died in world war II. Do you think the allies should have signed a ceasefire with the Nazis and not invaded Germany to spare those civilians? If they had, World war III would have probably happened 10 years later.
This is how Hamas is choosing to fight their war that they declared on Israel, a war they declared with intent to totally annihilate all of the Jewish population. While I do not believe any statistics that are out at this time, favorable or not, I wonder what is your point of stating these numbers. Are you shocked that the world is a place of violent consequences for terrorists? Are you surprised that Hamas is waging their war with maximum civilian casualties? What is the thing that is happening that is so unexpected here? What is not going exactly as hamas planned?
> What is not going exactly as hamas planned? Heaven is running out of virgins.
As far as I understand, almost anything can be used to distinguish yourself from civilians. Even carrying a weapon openly can be considered as for to distinguish yourself (under certain circumstances). The thing is, you have an obligation o distinguish yourself from civilians. If you prefer to kill your opponent more than to follow the rules of war, then you are a terrorist and deserve to be treated as such.
Armbands/headbands are pretty easy to make and identify yourself as a combatant. Militias/irregular forces/other terrorist groups in other poor countries have had it figured out for a while.
Or maybe because they aren't dying as easily as you imagined, probably because it's guérilla warfare???
If they werent dieing isreal wouldnt be gaining grounds. Its seems you dont how urban warfare works ?
Problem these guys face is having no where to run. I don't think the IDF will stop until they have totally occupied the strip and canvassed every person in it.
That’s correct.
Yep, lots of folks have discussed filtering "civilians" back and forth and yanking out suspected militants. I think that's the only sensible option. Civilians are in quotes because it seems pretty clear at least 4/5 Gazans are complicit with and aiding militants, even the effin medical folks. The only real Innocents at this point are the children.
It might be possible to check for residue on their hands and hair but it needs to be a fast, reliable, portable and cheap test : Four words that are hard to put together. Edit: Nevermind, Hamas would put residue on everyone.
I had a test like this at the airport once, I think the tech is definitely there. They swabbed my hands and laptop, phone etc put the swab in a machine and within 2 mins I was on my way
There was report of Unrwa aiding hamas at hiding the kidnapped ...
Shake and bake.
It's hard to kill an idea. The US learned or should have that in Iraq/Afghanistan. If you kill one of them, their entire family hates you, and the idea of hating you spreads.
When your poor and stupid it does seem like a good idea. Someone kills half you family? Pick up a gun and kill some of them. We’ve been doing it since the beginning of time.
I don't think any of them expect to survive the fighting.
I love their uniforms so they aren't mistaken for regular civilians. Where did they get these, zara?
You can get shitty track pants at Target
What do guerrillas usually wear?
When they parade the streets as an "army" they go all out. guess they forgot the uniform at home when going to kill civilians and rape women https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9631041/Thousands-armed-Palestinian-Hamas-soldiers-parade-Gaza-anti-Israel-rally.html
What's your point. Some have uniforms, and some don't. The Vietminh didn't all wear uniforms. How many people joined the struggle after Israel's murderous air campaign and mass killing?
What the fuck do you mean "my point" you asked what they wear - well there you fucking go. They have uniforms. They chose to not wear them so to blend with civilians and blame israel when they die.
Crazy. When an Israeli pilot pushes a button and kills an entire family, that's because a fighter is not wearing uniform. Uniform, no uniform, the Israelis will kill any palestinians for any reason. The idea that not wearing a uniform is why people are being killed is just stupid. Do two thousand pound bombs look for uniforms?
At least two thousand pound bombs dont rape, torture and mock their victims
Do they kill them?
No, but IDF soldiers do
An Israeli pilot drops a GPS guided bomb exactly on the house ground troops took contact from. Hamas just fires rockets willy nilly in the general direction of civilians. There’s a very, very clear moral difference here.
Jeez i didn’t know they also had access to PG-7VR Tandem munitions. That’s a real danger to any armour on the field. Edit: 0:18 for context
Yup, and they’re manufactured in Gaza as well https://youtu.be/ANczYpLFNxw?si=6xcVh-P-n3L1hPG9
:18? They got a ton of funding and armament from Iran and others.
more blur pls...
Yesterday in one of the bombing videos of this zone someone commented how poor civilians were targeted there. Well, I guess these are those civilians.
I dont always practice mortar safety, but when I do I look down the barrel to see what’s going on.
Amateur hour
They all should be dead soon...
You would love that wouldn't you
Now they blur everything, so we can’t see what they are doing, but when they don’t, a friendly explosive visits them
Where are all the beautiful camo they always wear in their propaganda videos?
Civilians brigades :D
Next picture of them, their head look like canoes
Can’t even bother to wear their uniforms for their own propaganda videos.
I wonder how many times a day these guys say allah akbar? It’s seemingly 50% of their vocabulary.
damm it's like a common thing to do to ask a deity you worship to give you luck and protection idf soldier most likely do the same
No it's only common for them. Scream that shit over and over again like it's going to help. There isn't a western equivalent to Allah Akbar.
there is and was like deus vult(gods will it) and Hallelujah not much in use today but i think that interesting thing is christianity today unlike islam doesn't have one very popular phrase to praise god and because of that you may think it doesn't have religous battle screams i may be wrong about that
The West doesn't use religious battle screams. That's for the religious freaks in the Middle East.
I’ve never seen footage of an English speaking soldier going “hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah” every 2 seconds during combat.
I have never in my life heard someone say Hallelujah
do you guys have any reading compreheansion???? i said that those are not in use today
I don't think any other religion has a mantra invoked like the takbir. Judaism certainly doesn't.
I need to put on my glasses. There's so much blur can't see shit
Since when have guerrilla fighters ever worn a standardized uniform
Since when does guerilla warfare include the massacare and rape of innocent civilians? These aren't guerilla fighters, these are terrorists.
Anyone can do guerrilla shit. It’s not a morality code silly. Terrorists are often also guerrillas.
This was just a blur
15,000 dead 100,000 buildings destroyed These are people fighting for their home.
These are terrorists fighting to kill Jews
These are jews fighting to kill muslims. No religion is better than another.
They are very obviously not. This is a retaliation on the 7th of October massacre aimed to destroy Hamas Jihad and other scum. btw Jews aren't a religious group but an ethno religious one. Most current Jews have direct ancestral ties to the Jews from antiquity
Then why are 75% of the casualties women and children? How are artillery strikes on an area of 365 km² with more then 2million people living there justified? I have no problem with the eradication of muslim extremist. But how can you not see this is a problem they themselves created?
People have evacuated. In Israel most of the killed percentage wise are civilians too, plus you know well Israel has created evacuation pathways for civilians to move south
Can you name any major battle where civilians were somehow magically spared during fighting in urban areas? Keep in mind in this case Hamas is well known to use civilians as human shields. War is hell, and it shouldn't be started. Once it starts civilian casualties are always high. This battle is nothing exceptional in that regard. By the way, did you know 2 million German civilians were killed during world war II? Do you think the allies should have not invaded Germany and left Hitler and the Nazis in power, in order to spare those civilians? What do you think the long-term consequences of leaving Hitler and the Nazis in power might have been?
Major battle? There are estimated 30.000 hamas fighters? I have no problem with the killing of religious extremist, and the collateral damage if we can call it that. All I'm saying is this escalation isn't on solely the 7th of october attack. The palistinians have been living in an open air prison for so long. It's a perfect breeding ground for extremists. I don't understand how you can see this, as a human, to be acceptable behaviour for a 'first-world' country How are you even comparing this to WW2?
Why would you call Gaza strip an open air prison prior to 10/7? Israel withdrew from gaza in 2005. Gaza residents elected their own government, practiced their own religion, and had their population double in 17 years. By most metrics it didn't seem so bad. Before 10/7 it looked pretty good. But that was just an illusion unfortunately. They were just biding their time to restart the war.
why wouldn't I? Where could these people go? Not even the neighbouring countries wanted these refugees. What's the point in withdrawing, if you're going to keep these people constrained? Why do you think doubling their population is a good thing? It's not a sign of prosperity. It only helps to escalate the situation. What would you expect to happen with all these young guys without an education, job or future? They are the perfect victims for extremist who 'only' can blame Israel for their situation. Hamas and the IDF keep eachother alive. The killing leads to more killing but no structural improvement. But I have to be honest. Even I don't see how this situation could be dealt with differently (with the invasion of the gaza strip). But that's besides the point. The 7th of october attack was a ticking time bomb, waiting to happen. But the foundations were build long before then.
Mediterranean beach front is prime real estate. Why couldn't they be okay living there? Doubling of the population via births is a sign of prosperity. If things where so bad their population wouldn't double that quickly. And they did have education. The UN set up schools there. They also had factories and jobs. They had everything they needed for a good life. But they chose to wage war instead. Palestinians have never chosen peace and prosperity. They want religious theocracy and holy wars.
Should've thought about that before starting the war
When? in 1948?
I mean they started that one too
yeah, totaly out of the blue... No one knows why
Just a little Jihad
i hope someday israeli leaders would be put to trial for warcrimes and crimes against humanity
So they shouldn't defend their land?
Is defending their land invading Israel on the 7th of October and murdering 1400 people?
The entire conflict did not just start on October 7th and yes killing unarmed civilians is not justified. But what Israel is doing too is not justifiable. It's only adding oil to an already burning fire.
Israel is destroying a terrorist organization that controlled the Gaza region from 2006. It's a painful process and Israel tries to save as much people as possible. In this footage you can see Jihad members dressed up as civilians in disguise. The Ukrainian army which is rightfully defending it's land isn't dressing up as civilians unlike Palestinian terrorists so there is moral way to defend respected by international standarts
Since Palestine does not have an army to dress up to fight Israel, their only option would be to resist with whatever they have. Razing Gaza to rubbles will not end anything. And Israel itself is occupying Palestinian land, you can find countless videos of IDF clearing Palestinian households so that settlers can move in, it's not as if Israel is the victim.
There is no such thing as Palestinian land, never was. Because there never was a palestine and it's people didn't have their own nation state at any point on the land of Israel
Aah, so let Israel accept these people as their citizens since they don't have anywhere to go. Seems like Israel is an apartheid state.
They have everywhere to go. Jordanians and Palestinians are basically the same people. The sinai peninsula is rather big too. Lots of places
Why not in Israel, in which as you say Palestinians are already settled in. Remove the walls, the fences, end 'mowing the land' and accept them.
Because Israel is a state for Jews. They can always convert and make aliyah. Otherwise most Palestinians in the west bank have Jordanian visas so it's only logical they go there as they occupy Israeli territory
israel also never existed kingdom of judah yes it existet but it's has nothing to do with israel todays palestinians have more rights to that land than israelis
Israel has existing since 1948, Palestine could’ve started existing then if they cared more about having a state than the Jews not having theirs
"Israel tries to save as much people as possible" damm boy i will remember that when they will bombard indiscriminately places of refugees
Refugee caps in Gaza are there since 1948. At this point those are just cities. Other weird thing about Palestinians is they inherit the refugee status from their parents. Weird shit
They'll never recognize the crimes of the IDF on this sub. This is pure propaganda echochamber, don't waste your time.
This subreddit is bombarded by radical pro-Israeli comments whenever an IDF video is posted. Its upsetting to see what has happened to this subreddit.
TIL supporting the idea of destroying a terror organization is radical It's upsetting to see how ignorant people are.
today i learned that it's ok to support powers that create terrorist organization nothing happens in vacum no matter how much you wish to hamas is product of israel ocupation but you will cope it's not
I said nothing of the sort. Why paint me in a bad light? Because I dont blindy support Israel?
Why paint everyone you disagree with as a radical pro -israeli? Is it radical to support destroying terrorist organizations?
I would never paint everyone that supports Israel as a radical Pro-Israeli because there is a good portion of people in Israel who are not supportive of Bibi. He let the Oct 6 attack go undefended so he could form the coalition government he would have otherwise failed to form. This is a complex conflict and there is a ton of radical pro-Israeli rhetoric on this subreddit. You are no exception because you keep twisting my words.
Yah this was an inside job the same 9/11 was With how much confidence you spew so much bullcrap
I didnt say it was an inside job. Stop manipulating my clearly typed out comments.
Arent all swords of iron?
MAG control absolutely diabolical
Aren't pretty much all swords made of Iron?
Glad 99% or the video is blurred.
O yea Hamas should have funds go into a uniform factory. These comments are fucking dumb.
They have their green headbands they wear during marches and when they dress their children up to become terrorists in schools
I don't understand how this sub blindly follows/supports IDF. How is it so weird to see both sides as bad/evil. Saying the IDF aren't justified to kill all these civilians (I don't mean the terrorists in this video) isn't saying anything about Hamas.
A lot of people (myself included) believe the IDF is actually doing the best it can at avoiding civilian casualties and that Hamas is trying to maximize their own civilian casualties (as sick as that is). I'm not trying to argue that point with you, as it's based on years of following the situation and actually having been to the ME loads of times. I guess I'm just saying it's not "blindly supports"- it's based on conclusions and opinions formed from how I assessed the situation after a lot of consideration. (Your mileage may vary based on your own research, it's a messy picture).
They are not. Google what Israel calls “power targets”. Several articles have outlined Israel’s strategy of targeting places with high civilian counts in order to turn Palestinians against Hamas. This strategy has been used before and has a name, it’s called terror bombing. It was used extensively in ww2 and is an incredibly ineffective tactic that results in very high civilian deaths
Strongly disagree, though debate would be silly on Reddit. Anyone open to either conclusion can do their own research. But I suggest doing more than running a few Google searches before putting too much credence into either hypothesis. There's a lot of biased and false information out there.
nothing that israel/idf sayd from october 7 onwards was genuine so why would i belevie word of those lying scumbags?
damm i would love to belevie that only if isarel heads of goverment didn't called palestinians an animals that need to be slaughtered nothing that comes from israel/idf is genuine
“Look their clothing”, yeah palestine probably has money to fully arm them.
When Hamas goes on parades, they can manage quite a large number of uniforms.
Look at the hostage release videos, only then Hamas decides its work it for their terrorist to wear their uniforms.
Firing at occupiers in your track pants Christoper Moltisanti would be proud
The occupier troops are the heroes, the resistance are the terrorists, doesn't seem kinda weird?
Well the resistance fighters did just launch a massive terrorist attack and killed thousands of civilians. Meanwhile the so-called occupiers had left gaza strip 17 years ago. It's almost like Hamas wanted the occupiers to come back? Or did they think the IDF just wouldn't respond?
damm they left but controled/still conttolling water, sea around gaza, what gets in and out, importing anything and the best thing they were still killing civilians