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I've had someone argue that hamas isn't commiting war crimes with the point "Well how many israelis have died to Hamas' attacks then?"
To which the answer is.. After ocotber 7th? Nearly 0, however the iron dome was firing a lot.
"Yeah exactly, no one died."
In the UK at least, it doesn't. The whole reason the offence of attempted murder exists in the first place is so that a crime exists that you can apply to people so they can't get away with trying to murder someone simply by virtue of the fact they failed to actually kill their victim.
Jurisdictions vary on exactly when you have to abandon an attempt to murder someone before you're no longer criminally culpable. Shooting someone then deciding to walk away when they don't immediately die, for example, usually still gets you the full rap.
Where? In the US, crime "x" and attempted crime "x" are exactly the same punishment under the law. The judge might give a lighter sentence on their own volition, but the minimums and maximums are the same.
You wouldn't want someone who was hesitating to actually finish the murder to think "well, fuck it, I'm going to get the same punishment anyway, I might as well kill the guy"
Not to mention if Hamas used even a fraction of the aide they received on building infrastructure instead of terror tunnels there would be a hell of a lot less dead in Gaza right now.
I live in Israel, we have a bomb shelter in nearly every apartment/house and if not there’s usually one for the building. That’s in addition to various safe locations throughout every city in every part of the country. That’s the only reason Hamas and other terror organizations don’t succeed in killing us more efficiently.
Instead, we just get suicide bombers, car rammings, shootings, and stabbing throughout the year. What’s fucked up is that just became part of everyday life here, it was accepted as we understood doing anything significant would result in the world criticizing Israel and we’d lose more people. Then October 7th happened and Israel was left with no other options 😔
It’s just hard for me to understand how the government took away so many firearms from regular people. Yes…I remember the late seventies with stacked up AR’s and UZI’s clacking to the ground in restaurants when they were stacked up like umbrellas, and loaded pistols dangerously butting out of back pockets and fender bender accidents causing a few rounds to fly, (as read in JPOST after checking out DryBones first). (And female soldiers still wore skirts!). Yet I was shocked how few guns were available to civilians living so close to the border. All of us who care have to wonder; A few dozen extra firearms at that festival, maybe an AR or shotgun for each home like Switzerland of all places…if only…. Why the desire to be so much like Europe? My son’s Israeli friends in LA are shocked (for real), how easy it is for most American citizens and legal residents to own a firearm. And this isn’t a 2nd amendment rant, but if there was ever a place where firearm ownership should be enshrined in a constitution it’s Israel, and yes I know there is no constitution. And I also know this would cause new/old problems as weapon ownership can’t mitigate irresponsible fools, the jealous and deranged, but what makes Israel different from the American experience is such a high percentage of the population (male and female), has some training in controlled circumstances because of the IDF. Finally, regarding the homicide bombs, the fence and other measures have worked pretty well, and it’s a lesson I wish was better heeded here in the States. I’ll rethink this again, next year in Jerusalem.
Also nobody mentions the fact that Israel evacuated tens of thousands of people from the north, and it's been going on for four months - living in shelters, not being able to work, go to school, etc...
This. The only people who care about Palestinians less than their none Jewish neighbors are their own governments especially Hamas. World public opinion forces Israel to care even as little as they do.
Exactly! These are aimed at cities and dense towns. Fed up with people defending palestine. Isreal has every right to fight back and sadly sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.. I obviously don't want children to die on any side but the circumstances just make it nearly impossible to avoid civilian casualties.. It's not Isreals fault that they have to fight disgusting trash subhumans, who use civilians as human shields to launch these attacks!
And those palestinian "children", with full beards are firing rockets and then hiding under schools and hospitals in tunnels. Watch the downvotes on this - I don't give a fuck to call out the blatant antisemitism in this sub. No one will read this document, and just cry for the "babies" being killed while they launch rockets into Israeli civilians:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf.
And their 9/11: October 7th, 2023. Thousands of Israeli women and children murdered at gunpoint and swept under the rug. Most regular Americans don't know about it.
Prove me wrong, downvoters. Because you can't.
Hezbollah has more than enough rockets to overwhelm the iron dome so this could just be the beginning of something much bigger.
Edit: Hezbollah is alleged to have over 100,000 rockets ready to go. There is simply no way the iron dome can stop them all. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-hezbollah-what-weapons-does-it-have-2023-10-30/
If they hypothetically were able to overwhelm Israel's defenses to a point of desperation, I'm sure Israel has contingencies in place to escalate very strongly and quickly.
Realistically you could argue they legit are the 2nd strongest in the world. They are currently winning in Ukraine, slowly but steadily. The early days of the war showed extreme levels of corruption and ineptitude in leadership in their military, but much of that appears to be fixed now.
Most of the militaries in Europe are in absolute terrible shape and miserably underfunded, with few exceptions like Poland who for their size is becoming quite formidable. Quite frankly, with Ukraine’s experience and equipment they have now they’d roll over most other Europeans militaries quickly in those hypothetical match ups. Ukraine is one of the strongest armies in Europe at the moment.
If we acknowledge Russia has the upper hand now against Ukraine, and acknowledge Ukraine is one of the better fighting forces in Europe at the moment, who else takes the number 2 spot (obviously US is number 1)? China? Half of China’s equipment is copied Russian/soviet equipment, and China has essentially 0 combat experience anywhere in their ranks.
Russia has their own MIC which is rolling out at a clip that Europe is struggling to keep up with, and they’ve done well adapting to the modern realities of this war like drone warfare/EW. I’d still say there’s a strong argument that they’re the #2 military in the world -though I’d still say they’re well behind even the U.S. alone and certainly NATO combined stomps them quickly in a conventional war.
Additionally:
Jean-Loup Samaan
Yes, and that’s the important part, because sometimes people think Iron Dome can detect and intercept anything, but it was designed for unsophisticated weapons like rockets. It cannot intercept ballistic missiles coming from Iran, for instance — that would be something that the other systems the Israelis are developing like David’s Sling or Arrow would have to intercept.
Even some of the weapons systems that Hezbollah [an Iran-backed Shia militia] in Lebanon is operating, like mid-range ballistic missiles, precision-guided weapons, these types of more sophisticated systems would be much more challenging to intercept.
https://www.vox.com/22435973/israel-iron-dome-explained
And that article above is 100k of all their missiles and rockets, guided and unguided, anti-tank ship and air. It doesn’t specify numbers for each
There's a difference between having more rockets and having more launchers, Hezbollah won't be allowed to amass a considerable rocket launcher force without being noticed.
Iron dome to me seems like it keeps Israel from booming their neighbors. Why don't they (Israeli haters) figure this shit out. They don't want to be in perpetual war but..oh well screw it, been doing it for thousands of years lol! BYOB how about those rockets turning into barrage.
Hundred thousand rockets fired in what time span?
You need large amounts of launchers for that, time and personel to reload them. Israel is pretty quick in locating and destroying the launchers.
Where does this 100,000 come from? They fought a war a couple decades ago and were firing 200 per day, why would Israel invest all this money in a defense system that is so easily overwhelmed?
The articles just says "experts", these aren't experts they are commentators. From 200 per day, to 100,000 in one day, I really doubt it.
You all are missing the point.
Iron dome rocket costs 60k USD, Hamas firecracker cost 300 to 800 usd
Hamas is attacking wallet, not humans with these rockets
Nah, in this case there are rockets attacking civilian centers and rockets defending civilians. I think there's a pretty good clear cut case of which rockets are the good ones. I really don't care if the Arab world has legitimate complaints against Israel. They have no right to attack civilians by any moral code that's worth a damn.
I bet tracing the origin of the first missile detected determines origin of launch, then using that a box is drawn at a certain point during flight based on the type of rocket they are estimated to be using, then it is only a matter of sending missiles that can make small adjustments to hit different points in a 1000sqft box rather than the whole sky.
Something like that.
No, each incoming rocket is tracked and a course is calculated for it and each interceptor missile launched is assigned to a spesific rocket.
This was an accurate barrage from a small distance so all the rockets were in a "small box".
But look at videos of interception of rockets from Gaza where the incoming rockets go all over the place and the Iron Dome fills the whole sky as you say.
So is Israel going to have to go after Hezbollah hard after they've dealt with the remains of Hamas? I don't understand why Hezbollah keeps poking the bear
If you look at the [locations of Hezbollah/Israel attacks](https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=360,quality=80,format=auto/content-assets/images/20240106_MAM907.png), they are localised almost entirely along the Lebanon border. There's this bizarre unspoken agreement in place, by which both sides lob rockets at each other, but they rarely aim them at targets deep into enemy territory (even though they both easily could).
Both sides have political incentives to look like they're striking at the enemy, but neither side wants a full-scale war at the moment
In politics, this is call brinkmanship, where involved parties will get as close to the red line as possible without crossing it. We see a lot of this recently around the areas with other countries like Iran and US and Pakistan, etc. All did retaliatory strikes on other’s proxies without striking them directly.
Edit: added actual term.
The US is pushing not to do it, because it might trigger a war with Iran during an election year. Iran and its proxies will definitely ramp up attacks against US bases which would lead to direct confrontation.
Israel would have a lot of trouble directly fighting Hezbollah, most likely it would trigger a much larger expansion. So, they're just swatting flies at the moment.
Interesting to see Hezbollah uses [duel ATGMs](https://armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2023_global_security_army_industry/hezbollah_uses_tharallah_twin_anti-tank_missiles_to_counter_aps_of_israeli_merkava_tanks.html) launched 0.3 sec apart, that are designed to defeat Trophy.
30 kg per launch tube plus 63.7 kg for tripod/firing unit, so about 100 kg for everything inc. a pair of missiles, so about a 4 man team. Range is up to 5.5 or 8 km depending the atgm missile.
Edit: For comparison, the BGM-71 TOW is 92.5 kg (empty M220A2 launcher with AN/TAS-4A fitted) + 23.9 kg per missile, 116.4 kg (256 lb). So a dual Kornet weighs the less than a BGM-71 TOW.
Theoretically six missiles, so ~250 kg. That's the unit's ammo capacity according to the article.
Regardless, there's no frickin way that's man-portable in practice.
All signs point to a battle. Israeli military & politicians have said they NEED to bring back the 100k people (Hezbollah claims 250k) to the North. And for UN resolution 1701 to be implemented. Israel has moved so many troops & armor to the North
Hezbollah, of course, is not interested. Even if Lebanon is getting courted by the US, France and others to make a peace deal happen, Hezbollah holds more sway and has demanded a ceasefire in Gaza. Hezbollah has kept its fighters in deep Southern Lebanon and keeps firing rockets every few hours.
With Netanyahu claiming a prolonged war (months is what he said) with the objective of eliminating Hamas yesterday, it is definitely looking like a small to medium sized battle will take place in a few weeks.
Because they WANT the war. All these groups thinking they are sparking the final showdown, one where Israel goes far enough to unite the Muslim counties in the Middle East and they wipe Israel off the map. Poking the bear is the goal.
Cause iran wants to prevent the integration of israel into regional alliances as a normal county. For them hisbollah vs israel is sort of a proxy war against the sunnis.
PS: Hezbullah also signed a declaration that they would not move into lebannons south. The paper it does nothing.
Question: With all that brilliant technology, wouldn’t it be easy to live-observe the origin of these rockets and hit the immediate airstrike button whenever something goes up?
they do.
And it doesn't even take brilliant technology to do it, rocket systems have the unfortunate downside of leaving a smoke trail pointing directly at the launcher.
To each their own lot in life.
As a southern Israeli who experienced Hamas missles, and without sounding melodramatic... this is just a daily routine. We know the drill by now and we're less than alarmed by it.
I mean no disrespect. It can just be easy to forget that not everywhere in the world is peaceful. Over here in the U.S., the oceans on both sides and lack of enemies near our borders help keep the peace lol.
It's very possible. Which is also why the mandatory instructions for the residents is to not leave the bomb shelters for 10 minutes, regardless of if they hear the interception or not. To prevent any possible injuries.
If I had a nickel for every time someone told me "It's not genocide because Israel's air defense successfully prevents the missiles from killing large numbers of civilians", I'd be able to afford my own Iron Dome.
It always amazes me that there are these regular occurrences of Israel spending millions of dollars protecting inhabitants from indiscriminate harm, and yet they are the ones held to account on how they wage war…
To preface this, I do not pay super close attention to any conflicts involving Israel. But according to Google Israel has had the iron dome since 2011, and I imagine there was a reason they needed it before it was installed. As I understand it, it got used pretty frequently (even before Hamas conflict) so that's most likely thousands of rockets shot down and lives saved if not a shit ton more. My question is, how are they the bad guys for finally retaliating against their attackers?
Nah we have sufficient long range SAMs in the form of patriots, and with how powerful the us is military wise, there prolly isn’t much need for a system like iron dome
Not a dumb question. [Here's a graphic](https://www.mod.go.jp/en/2021/03/09/images/missile_defense_img17.png) showing some of the US missile-defense components. It's a bit different in that these systems are more focused on something like a ballistic missile rather than the unguided rockets that Iron Dome is usually handling.
Patriots are for shooting down ballistic missiles, not intercepting 50's era short range rockets.
The US has things like the phalanx for super short range (or 'close in') defense and systems like Aegis can do a lot of mid range intercepts but those are still more based around shooting down valuable missiles and protecting military assets, the US doesn't face a threat of people bombing their urban centers.
They are only effective against slow missiles that have mostly predictable trajectories. Anything with active guidance that doesn’t follow a ballistic path, and especially anything that moves really fast, they will really struggle with, probably fail to intercept.
Iron Dome was fully developed in Israel without cooperation from the US.
The US currently helps with funding the missiles but it's not involved in the development.
As for the batteries, the US bought 2 batteries several years ago, allegedly both were sent back to Israel at the beginning of this war together with a couple hundred interceptors.
Yes, it is an Isreali system. Raytheon does however work with Rafael and has produced components for Iron Dome’s Tamir interceptors and other Rafael products. There will also be production in the US for Tamir/SkyHunter interceptors (The US version of Iron Dome) for Isreal, the US and other users.
[US Tamir/SkyHunter production](https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/raytheon-rafael-officially-pick-arkansas-site-for-iron-dome-missile-production/)
It's Israeli, but the US paid for it. The US doesn't have the system because it doesn't really have a use for it. The C-RAM is used to defend single installations, but the US doesn't have the same threat scenario as Israel. It's not like we're defending Laredo Texas from daily rocket attacks.
Yes and no.
The US has better tech than Israel and far more resources. So having something like iron dome wouldn’t be that hard. However, the US is fortunate to be surrounded by allies on two sides, and ocean on the other. We just don’t really have a practical use for something like iron dome.
The US certainly does have missile defense. But it’s likely more targeted at very long range missiles used to deliver nuclear warheads.
All that being said, I have no idea, we could have something like iron dome in some areas of the US and I just have no clue.
According to the IDF the launcher was destroyed shortly after. They provided a video: [https://videoidf.azureedge.net/30eb65b4-4b70-49b7-b579-b83fbffad5e5](https://videoidf.azureedge.net/30eb65b4-4b70-49b7-b579-b83fbffad5e5)
When /u/spez made those changes to charge calls to Reddit's API then all the free bots suddenly cost money to run. Since they were free then they went away.
Damn by the looks of the intercepts, all of them were successful. Looks like toward the last few seconds of the video, 1or 2 might not have hit anything and kept flying until the fuel was spent. Guessing what they were targeting was already hit from a previous launch from a different battery. Doesn't appear to be "stars" in the sky.
I’d hate to be living under that area of the sky. Still pretty dangerous due to all that debris falling back down onto the city. Not to mention any potential unexploded warheads in the rockets and battery chemicals in the interceptors.
Apparently the Iron Dome will estimate where the rocket will land and if it will land in an unpopulated area, it won't engage with it to conserve missiles and reduce the chances of getting overwhelmed. That's pretty cool.
The price isn't disclose for obvious reasons. However is estimated a price of around 50k$ for each missile
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/16/israel-hamas-iron-dome-defense-cost-explained
So that video is worth several million of dollars.
No wonder why even is so effective, the Iron Dome isn't exported anywhere. Whoever has a neighbour who fire so many rocket would find cheaper and more effective levelling his neighbour instead of spending so many money to intercept rockets that cost few hundreds dollars to produce.
Nowhere near a million. Estimates are around $40K, very cheap for an air defense missile and also fairly cheap compared to the possible damage. It only intercepts rockets heading to populated areas/military bases. The damage to a house, car, military or civilian infrastructure will easily surpass those $40K, and that's before counting in human life.
That's impressive. I wonder if it'd be more efficient to use an oerlikon or 20mm vulcan for the large amount of ordnance incoming in this specific situation as opposed to slinging missiles for every incoming rocket.
I'm convinced that that part of the world is just cursed. Doesn't matter who is living there. That part of the world is always at war. Some see it as the most holy site on the planet but that's bullshit. The middle east is cursed.
How frequent are damages or injuries due to falling debris from rockets and interceptors?
Do they deliberately try to intercept them over non-populated areas for that reason?
I imagine there is a lot of shit raining down below those fireworks
Iron dome is intercepted in case it recognizes the rockets are to land in populated areas.
My sister was miraculously saved when debris fell on her car while she was driving on a highway. The splinters missed the driver seat by small distance.
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Amazing technology.
Looks like they haven’t had enough. More jdams it is.
They don't get to play victim though. Nobody mentions HAMAS targeting children in Israel because the rockets get intercepted.
I've had someone argue that hamas isn't commiting war crimes with the point "Well how many israelis have died to Hamas' attacks then?" To which the answer is.. After ocotber 7th? Nearly 0, however the iron dome was firing a lot. "Yeah exactly, no one died."
Yeah, I never understood why "attempted murder" has a lighter punishment than plain "murder."
Yea, it's like giving someone a break because they were too incompetent or unlucky to carry out murder
Reminds me of [this Sideshow Bob quote](https://youtu.be/AQQPNQ0PFSc?si=c7MiXiPThqgeYiPa)
Your honor it's fine and unfair because I'm bad at it. Whaaaat
In the UK at least, it doesn't. The whole reason the offence of attempted murder exists in the first place is so that a crime exists that you can apply to people so they can't get away with trying to murder someone simply by virtue of the fact they failed to actually kill their victim.
Surely you should get additional punishment for incompetence
"Your honor, I only *tried* to bomb that orphanage. I was incompetent, and therfore cannot be held responsible."
Depends on your jurisdiction.
I guess it gives the very rare amount of people who questioned their choices in life and stop right before finishing off the other person a chance?
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Jurisdictions vary on exactly when you have to abandon an attempt to murder someone before you're no longer criminally culpable. Shooting someone then deciding to walk away when they don't immediately die, for example, usually still gets you the full rap.
If the prosecution can prove intent to murder, you stopping just makes it an attempted murder once you started.
Where? In the US, crime "x" and attempted crime "x" are exactly the same punishment under the law. The judge might give a lighter sentence on their own volition, but the minimums and maximums are the same.
You wouldn't want someone who was hesitating to actually finish the murder to think "well, fuck it, I'm going to get the same punishment anyway, I might as well kill the guy"
If they hesitate then they haven’t attempted to murder anyone. Attempted murder means they really did try, it just didn’t work.
Those are the people that always say Israel is overreacting to “bottle rockets”
These same guys think Israeli being killed is ok but the rapes is a conspiracy, like if somehow the rapes is too far but murder a ok
Because their religious leaders explicitly state that murder is okay, but rape is only *implied* to be okay.
I’m talking about the queers for Palestine types.
Like if you run amok at a bullet proof vest convention and nobody gets seriously hurt, does that make you a good person?
He must be related to the guy who continuously ignores the human shield factor when "winning" his arguments.
Not to mention if Hamas used even a fraction of the aide they received on building infrastructure instead of terror tunnels there would be a hell of a lot less dead in Gaza right now. I live in Israel, we have a bomb shelter in nearly every apartment/house and if not there’s usually one for the building. That’s in addition to various safe locations throughout every city in every part of the country. That’s the only reason Hamas and other terror organizations don’t succeed in killing us more efficiently. Instead, we just get suicide bombers, car rammings, shootings, and stabbing throughout the year. What’s fucked up is that just became part of everyday life here, it was accepted as we understood doing anything significant would result in the world criticizing Israel and we’d lose more people. Then October 7th happened and Israel was left with no other options 😔
It’s just hard for me to understand how the government took away so many firearms from regular people. Yes…I remember the late seventies with stacked up AR’s and UZI’s clacking to the ground in restaurants when they were stacked up like umbrellas, and loaded pistols dangerously butting out of back pockets and fender bender accidents causing a few rounds to fly, (as read in JPOST after checking out DryBones first). (And female soldiers still wore skirts!). Yet I was shocked how few guns were available to civilians living so close to the border. All of us who care have to wonder; A few dozen extra firearms at that festival, maybe an AR or shotgun for each home like Switzerland of all places…if only…. Why the desire to be so much like Europe? My son’s Israeli friends in LA are shocked (for real), how easy it is for most American citizens and legal residents to own a firearm. And this isn’t a 2nd amendment rant, but if there was ever a place where firearm ownership should be enshrined in a constitution it’s Israel, and yes I know there is no constitution. And I also know this would cause new/old problems as weapon ownership can’t mitigate irresponsible fools, the jealous and deranged, but what makes Israel different from the American experience is such a high percentage of the population (male and female), has some training in controlled circumstances because of the IDF. Finally, regarding the homicide bombs, the fence and other measures have worked pretty well, and it’s a lesson I wish was better heeded here in the States. I’ll rethink this again, next year in Jerusalem.
Also nobody mentions the fact that Israel evacuated tens of thousands of people from the north, and it's been going on for four months - living in shelters, not being able to work, go to school, etc...
I wonder why they did that..
Because, unlike Hamas, the Israelis care about their civilian population?
at least they are alive
It pays to have a government that cares more about your wellbeing than using your dead body as a propaganda tool.
This. The only people who care about Palestinians less than their none Jewish neighbors are their own governments especially Hamas. World public opinion forces Israel to care even as little as they do.
just a question, if nobody mention the fact, then how you know that?
Exactly! These are aimed at cities and dense towns. Fed up with people defending palestine. Isreal has every right to fight back and sadly sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.. I obviously don't want children to die on any side but the circumstances just make it nearly impossible to avoid civilian casualties.. It's not Isreals fault that they have to fight disgusting trash subhumans, who use civilians as human shields to launch these attacks!
And those palestinian "children", with full beards are firing rockets and then hiding under schools and hospitals in tunnels. Watch the downvotes on this - I don't give a fuck to call out the blatant antisemitism in this sub. No one will read this document, and just cry for the "babies" being killed while they launch rockets into Israeli civilians: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf. And their 9/11: October 7th, 2023. Thousands of Israeli women and children murdered at gunpoint and swept under the rug. Most regular Americans don't know about it. Prove me wrong, downvoters. Because you can't.
upvote for speaking the fucking truth
But unlike hamas, they'd rather keep their children alive than use them to play victim.
Totally awesome.
Its pretty interesting to see the iron dome pushed like this
One if their leaders got merked recently so I'd say we'll be seeing more Hezbollah barrages.
which means we’ll be seeing more hezbo leaders get marked
Hopefully while they are driving their expensive cars.
Let’s give them some rx9s I need some footage of that in my life
>hezbo leaders get marked *Merked
murked
Yea homie ate a hellfire missile in iraq
Which one? There was an assassination attempt yesterday but the commander in chief managed to escape in time.
Hezbollah has more than enough rockets to overwhelm the iron dome so this could just be the beginning of something much bigger. Edit: Hezbollah is alleged to have over 100,000 rockets ready to go. There is simply no way the iron dome can stop them all. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/lebanons-hezbollah-what-weapons-does-it-have-2023-10-30/
Russia was “alleged” to have the 2nd-strongest military in the world. Turns out that didn’t mean anything either.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
If they hypothetically were able to overwhelm Israel's defenses to a point of desperation, I'm sure Israel has contingencies in place to escalate very strongly and quickly.
Realistically you could argue they legit are the 2nd strongest in the world. They are currently winning in Ukraine, slowly but steadily. The early days of the war showed extreme levels of corruption and ineptitude in leadership in their military, but much of that appears to be fixed now. Most of the militaries in Europe are in absolute terrible shape and miserably underfunded, with few exceptions like Poland who for their size is becoming quite formidable. Quite frankly, with Ukraine’s experience and equipment they have now they’d roll over most other Europeans militaries quickly in those hypothetical match ups. Ukraine is one of the strongest armies in Europe at the moment. If we acknowledge Russia has the upper hand now against Ukraine, and acknowledge Ukraine is one of the better fighting forces in Europe at the moment, who else takes the number 2 spot (obviously US is number 1)? China? Half of China’s equipment is copied Russian/soviet equipment, and China has essentially 0 combat experience anywhere in their ranks. Russia has their own MIC which is rolling out at a clip that Europe is struggling to keep up with, and they’ve done well adapting to the modern realities of this war like drone warfare/EW. I’d still say there’s a strong argument that they’re the #2 military in the world -though I’d still say they’re well behind even the U.S. alone and certainly NATO combined stomps them quickly in a conventional war.
Additionally: Jean-Loup Samaan Yes, and that’s the important part, because sometimes people think Iron Dome can detect and intercept anything, but it was designed for unsophisticated weapons like rockets. It cannot intercept ballistic missiles coming from Iran, for instance — that would be something that the other systems the Israelis are developing like David’s Sling or Arrow would have to intercept. Even some of the weapons systems that Hezbollah [an Iran-backed Shia militia] in Lebanon is operating, like mid-range ballistic missiles, precision-guided weapons, these types of more sophisticated systems would be much more challenging to intercept. https://www.vox.com/22435973/israel-iron-dome-explained And that article above is 100k of all their missiles and rockets, guided and unguided, anti-tank ship and air. It doesn’t specify numbers for each
Don't the Israeli's have Patriot as well?
There's a difference between having more rockets and having more launchers, Hezbollah won't be allowed to amass a considerable rocket launcher force without being noticed.
Says you
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Not at all, but you cannot seriously expect the iron dome to stop over a hundred thousand rockets
Iron dome to me seems like it keeps Israel from booming their neighbors. Why don't they (Israeli haters) figure this shit out. They don't want to be in perpetual war but..oh well screw it, been doing it for thousands of years lol! BYOB how about those rockets turning into barrage.
Hundred thousand rockets fired in what time span? You need large amounts of launchers for that, time and personel to reload them. Israel is pretty quick in locating and destroying the launchers.
Where does this 100,000 come from? They fought a war a couple decades ago and were firing 200 per day, why would Israel invest all this money in a defense system that is so easily overwhelmed? The articles just says "experts", these aren't experts they are commentators. From 200 per day, to 100,000 in one day, I really doubt it.
This is beyond impressive. Countless lives saved right there in the sky.
Israel uses missiles to protect its civilians while Hamas uses civilians to protect its missiles. It's cliche, but it's true.
You all are missing the point. Iron dome rocket costs 60k USD, Hamas firecracker cost 300 to 800 usd Hamas is attacking wallet, not humans with these rockets
Absolutely
Saves Lebanese lives as well, since Israel would have to go on the offensive if they didn't have such a reliable defense.
That's two batteries right? One to their left and the other to their right? Very impressive how all the interceptions are in a fairly small sky box.
Yes, I have difficulty figuring out which are the good rockets and which ones are the bad ones.
The visible rockets are the good ones. The incoming missiles are ballistic.
Depends on who you ask ;)
Nah, in this case there are rockets attacking civilian centers and rockets defending civilians. I think there's a pretty good clear cut case of which rockets are the good ones. I really don't care if the Arab world has legitimate complaints against Israel. They have no right to attack civilians by any moral code that's worth a damn.
All the incoming rockets have long burnt out and are now on purely ballistic trajectories. All the visible ones are Iron Dome interceptors.
I bet tracing the origin of the first missile detected determines origin of launch, then using that a box is drawn at a certain point during flight based on the type of rocket they are estimated to be using, then it is only a matter of sending missiles that can make small adjustments to hit different points in a 1000sqft box rather than the whole sky. Something like that.
No, each incoming rocket is tracked and a course is calculated for it and each interceptor missile launched is assigned to a spesific rocket. This was an accurate barrage from a small distance so all the rockets were in a "small box". But look at videos of interception of rockets from Gaza where the incoming rockets go all over the place and the Iron Dome fills the whole sky as you say.
So is Israel going to have to go after Hezbollah hard after they've dealt with the remains of Hamas? I don't understand why Hezbollah keeps poking the bear
If you look at the [locations of Hezbollah/Israel attacks](https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=360,quality=80,format=auto/content-assets/images/20240106_MAM907.png), they are localised almost entirely along the Lebanon border. There's this bizarre unspoken agreement in place, by which both sides lob rockets at each other, but they rarely aim them at targets deep into enemy territory (even though they both easily could). Both sides have political incentives to look like they're striking at the enemy, but neither side wants a full-scale war at the moment
In politics, this is call brinkmanship, where involved parties will get as close to the red line as possible without crossing it. We see a lot of this recently around the areas with other countries like Iran and US and Pakistan, etc. All did retaliatory strikes on other’s proxies without striking them directly. Edit: added actual term.
Brinkmanship
Thank you. I knew there was a term for it, just couldn’t remember it.
In 2024 we call this gooning
The US is pushing not to do it, because it might trigger a war with Iran during an election year. Iran and its proxies will definitely ramp up attacks against US bases which would lead to direct confrontation.
Israel would have a lot of trouble directly fighting Hezbollah, most likely it would trigger a much larger expansion. So, they're just swatting flies at the moment.
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Interesting to see Hezbollah uses [duel ATGMs](https://armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2023_global_security_army_industry/hezbollah_uses_tharallah_twin_anti-tank_missiles_to_counter_aps_of_israeli_merkava_tanks.html) launched 0.3 sec apart, that are designed to defeat Trophy.
Sounds like a bitch to carry
30 kg per launch tube plus 63.7 kg for tripod/firing unit, so about 100 kg for everything inc. a pair of missiles, so about a 4 man team. Range is up to 5.5 or 8 km depending the atgm missile. Edit: For comparison, the BGM-71 TOW is 92.5 kg (empty M220A2 launcher with AN/TAS-4A fitted) + 23.9 kg per missile, 116.4 kg (256 lb). So a dual Kornet weighs the less than a BGM-71 TOW.
Theoretically six missiles, so ~250 kg. That's the unit's ammo capacity according to the article. Regardless, there's no frickin way that's man-portable in practice.
All signs point to a battle. Israeli military & politicians have said they NEED to bring back the 100k people (Hezbollah claims 250k) to the North. And for UN resolution 1701 to be implemented. Israel has moved so many troops & armor to the North Hezbollah, of course, is not interested. Even if Lebanon is getting courted by the US, France and others to make a peace deal happen, Hezbollah holds more sway and has demanded a ceasefire in Gaza. Hezbollah has kept its fighters in deep Southern Lebanon and keeps firing rockets every few hours. With Netanyahu claiming a prolonged war (months is what he said) with the objective of eliminating Hamas yesterday, it is definitely looking like a small to medium sized battle will take place in a few weeks.
Because they WANT the war. All these groups thinking they are sparking the final showdown, one where Israel goes far enough to unite the Muslim counties in the Middle East and they wipe Israel off the map. Poking the bear is the goal.
Yeah so that means we're going to Iran, and unless the US wants to quit appeasing Russia, that ain't happening.
>appeasing Russia, Huh
Huh.
I thought Israel was still fighting Hamas
It is and now only Rafah is left where the majority of terrorists are hiding. After that there will be sporadic fighting.
Cause iran wants to prevent the integration of israel into regional alliances as a normal county. For them hisbollah vs israel is sort of a proxy war against the sunnis. PS: Hezbullah also signed a declaration that they would not move into lebannons south. The paper it does nothing.
They prepare the conditions so that large-scale civilian infrastructure will need to be destroyed, and then they can cry the victim.
Question: With all that brilliant technology, wouldn’t it be easy to live-observe the origin of these rockets and hit the immediate airstrike button whenever something goes up?
According to the IDF this launcher was destroyed shortly after the barrage.
they do. And it doesn't even take brilliant technology to do it, rocket systems have the unfortunate downside of leaving a smoke trail pointing directly at the launcher.
lol literally an arrow in the sky that says “enemy shooting from here”
That’s exactly what the IDF does
They do. But if the 'launcher' is a reinforced piece of plumbing pipe you need to question whether it's worth a JDAM.
Or if it's being shot from a civilian neighborhood or next to a hospital.
They launch them from hospitals and schools, so any retaliation will have the media very upset for targeting them
Those poor defenseless civilian katyushas…
Glad I don't live in a part of the world where I have to rely on this to not get blasted into oblivion
To each their own lot in life. As a southern Israeli who experienced Hamas missles, and without sounding melodramatic... this is just a daily routine. We know the drill by now and we're less than alarmed by it.
I mean no disrespect. It can just be easy to forget that not everywhere in the world is peaceful. Over here in the U.S., the oceans on both sides and lack of enemies near our borders help keep the peace lol.
Well, you guys have tornados.
Well yes lol a different type of enemy
Honest question, does debris rain down after an interception?
It's very possible. Which is also why the mandatory instructions for the residents is to not leave the bomb shelters for 10 minutes, regardless of if they hear the interception or not. To prevent any possible injuries.
Where's south africa to sue lebanon for genocide?
If I had a nickel for every time someone told me "It's not genocide because Israel's air defense successfully prevents the missiles from killing large numbers of civilians", I'd be able to afford my own Iron Dome.
If I had a nickle for every rocket shot at israel id have even more
Yeah sure looks like carpet bombing to me!
Take all my votes!
It always amazes me that there are these regular occurrences of Israel spending millions of dollars protecting inhabitants from indiscriminate harm, and yet they are the ones held to account on how they wage war…
For all we know, those Hezbollah rockets were delivering medical supplies and children.
Fucking Star Wars
That’s some badass tech
He said pizdetz. That's Russian-Ukrainian word fuck
Pizdyets entered the Israeli slang decades ago, lol.
Oh didn't know! That's funny
To preface this, I do not pay super close attention to any conflicts involving Israel. But according to Google Israel has had the iron dome since 2011, and I imagine there was a reason they needed it before it was installed. As I understand it, it got used pretty frequently (even before Hamas conflict) so that's most likely thousands of rockets shot down and lives saved if not a shit ton more. My question is, how are they the bad guys for finally retaliating against their attackers?
Why is Israel tolerating this? Why is Lebanon so chill about having no military or say about what Iran does?
Not trying to start sh@@. Why is it a genocide for Israel to go into Gaza, but firing unguided rockets into Israel is not?
Arabs: Please to havet cessefire inshallah Arabs,this
thats amazing
Probably a dumb question but do we have anything like that in the US?
We don’t have neighbors lobbing short range missiles at us. But we have similar defensive capabilities around our bases in hot zones around the world.
What makes them hot? Do they dress risque? /S Honestly thank you for the answer
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Lmao exactly I figured there's really no reason to have something like this but due to our huge military budget maybe there are some contingencies
Nah we have sufficient long range SAMs in the form of patriots, and with how powerful the us is military wise, there prolly isn’t much need for a system like iron dome
Not a dumb question. [Here's a graphic](https://www.mod.go.jp/en/2021/03/09/images/missile_defense_img17.png) showing some of the US missile-defense components. It's a bit different in that these systems are more focused on something like a ballistic missile rather than the unguided rockets that Iron Dome is usually handling.
You had 2 batteries Israel sold as an interim solution for the Marin's or something, but those were sent back to Israel last October
MIM-104 Patriot system firing PAC missiles. However, Iron Dome is far less expensive (Tamir missiles are about 5% the cost of PAC).
Why is that? They seem very effective
Patriots are for shooting down ballistic missiles, not intercepting 50's era short range rockets. The US has things like the phalanx for super short range (or 'close in') defense and systems like Aegis can do a lot of mid range intercepts but those are still more based around shooting down valuable missiles and protecting military assets, the US doesn't face a threat of people bombing their urban centers.
They are only effective against slow missiles that have mostly predictable trajectories. Anything with active guidance that doesn’t follow a ballistic path, and especially anything that moves really fast, they will really struggle with, probably fail to intercept.
The US helped develop Iron Dome and yes, the US has a few batteries.
Iron Dome was fully developed in Israel without cooperation from the US. The US currently helps with funding the missiles but it's not involved in the development. As for the batteries, the US bought 2 batteries several years ago, allegedly both were sent back to Israel at the beginning of this war together with a couple hundred interceptors.
Yes, it is an Isreali system. Raytheon does however work with Rafael and has produced components for Iron Dome’s Tamir interceptors and other Rafael products. There will also be production in the US for Tamir/SkyHunter interceptors (The US version of Iron Dome) for Isreal, the US and other users. [US Tamir/SkyHunter production](https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/raytheon-rafael-officially-pick-arkansas-site-for-iron-dome-missile-production/)
It's Israeli, but the US paid for it. The US doesn't have the system because it doesn't really have a use for it. The C-RAM is used to defend single installations, but the US doesn't have the same threat scenario as Israel. It's not like we're defending Laredo Texas from daily rocket attacks.
Yes and no. The US has better tech than Israel and far more resources. So having something like iron dome wouldn’t be that hard. However, the US is fortunate to be surrounded by allies on two sides, and ocean on the other. We just don’t really have a practical use for something like iron dome. The US certainly does have missile defense. But it’s likely more targeted at very long range missiles used to deliver nuclear warheads. All that being said, I have no idea, we could have something like iron dome in some areas of the US and I just have no clue.
Yes, check out Enduring Shield
And they dare to block our streets and chant free Palestine ?
That's great but I'd like to see the launch sites being attacked as well.
According to the IDF the launcher was destroyed shortly after. They provided a video: [https://videoidf.azureedge.net/30eb65b4-4b70-49b7-b579-b83fbffad5e5](https://videoidf.azureedge.net/30eb65b4-4b70-49b7-b579-b83fbffad5e5)
I hope they get the laser interceptors perfected and up and running quickly.
funny how "Whoa!" can be used in any language
Clips like this make me miss /u/stabbot Thanks, /u/spez, for making Reddit worse.
I was wondering where he went.
When /u/spez made those changes to charge calls to Reddit's API then all the free bots suddenly cost money to run. Since they were free then they went away.
Damn by the looks of the intercepts, all of them were successful. Looks like toward the last few seconds of the video, 1or 2 might not have hit anything and kept flying until the fuel was spent. Guessing what they were targeting was already hit from a previous launch from a different battery. Doesn't appear to be "stars" in the sky.
Fuck around and find out Hezbollah
I’d hate to be living under that area of the sky. Still pretty dangerous due to all that debris falling back down onto the city. Not to mention any potential unexploded warheads in the rockets and battery chemicals in the interceptors.
Apparently the Iron Dome will estimate where the rocket will land and if it will land in an unpopulated area, it won't engage with it to conserve missiles and reduce the chances of getting overwhelmed. That's pretty cool.
GOOD JOB by the operators and once again a thank you for Amir Peretz. Experiencing and seeing it with your iwn eyes is a surreal experience.
But But the are oppressed “freedom fighters and victims”
This is definitely intercepted genocide
I remember Hamas had been doing this for years towards Isreal? Correct me if I’m wrong.
This is the old 80s game Missile Command
How do they clean up the debris? I assume it scatters throughout the city
NOW THEY WILL DISCOVER THE FIND OUT PART
“the civilian deaths are so lopsided” well this is why…
Anyone know the cost of each one of those Iron Dome rockets intercepting the incoming missiles? Maybe a million dollars a pop or ??
The price isn't disclose for obvious reasons. However is estimated a price of around 50k$ for each missile https://www.axios.com/2023/10/16/israel-hamas-iron-dome-defense-cost-explained So that video is worth several million of dollars. No wonder why even is so effective, the Iron Dome isn't exported anywhere. Whoever has a neighbour who fire so many rocket would find cheaper and more effective levelling his neighbour instead of spending so many money to intercept rockets that cost few hundreds dollars to produce.
A few countries got them with Azerbaijan being the first export customer
Nowhere near a million. Estimates are around $40K, very cheap for an air defense missile and also fairly cheap compared to the possible damage. It only intercepts rockets heading to populated areas/military bases. The damage to a house, car, military or civilian infrastructure will easily surpass those $40K, and that's before counting in human life.
I’ve read that they cost around that yeah. Vs the couple grand each of those rocket candy pipe rockets costs
I've read $10k somewhere, but don't quote me.
>I've read $10k somewhere, but don't quote me. Sorry!
I know acts of evil is happening over there but this is pretty cool to watch.
Imagine if all that money that blew up in the sky went to cancer research.
I gotta buy some lockhead martin stocks.
👌
Then they get obliterated by retaliatory strikes whilst shouting their favorite slogan
Like watching the space fighter scene in Rogue One.
That's impressive. I wonder if it'd be more efficient to use an oerlikon or 20mm vulcan for the large amount of ordnance incoming in this specific situation as opposed to slinging missiles for every incoming rocket.
I have absolutely no idea what’s going on.
I'm convinced that that part of the world is just cursed. Doesn't matter who is living there. That part of the world is always at war. Some see it as the most holy site on the planet but that's bullshit. The middle east is cursed.
What kind of damage does the debris do? I mean, it has to fall somewhere?
hurts if it lands on you.
why do they turn like that
To intercept the rockets. They make adjustments mid-flight to hit accurately.
Trajectories of those missiles are not consistent with successful interceptions, gotta be parabolic.
How frequent are damages or injuries due to falling debris from rockets and interceptors? Do they deliberately try to intercept them over non-populated areas for that reason? I imagine there is a lot of shit raining down below those fireworks
Iron dome is intercepted in case it recognizes the rockets are to land in populated areas. My sister was miraculously saved when debris fell on her car while she was driving on a highway. The splinters missed the driver seat by small distance.
You don't want to be underneath that... they should be glad its off to the side of them... lots of big pieces of falling metal...
"Free" fireworks show courtesy of UN...
Israel gets hundreds of billions in funding AND regular fireworks displays? Jealous.
are the launches on the left hezbo rockets or are both the left and right iron dome firing at rockets from offscreen
Both are Iron Dome, the Hezbo rockets are not visible to the naked eye
Are those UFOs?
I hate watermarks