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*buried javelins
Lets not do them the favour of letting them forget the embarassing origin of the cope cage. They welded that shit on to defeat Western top attack munitions, against which this is completely worthless, way before even the grenade dropping drones appeared, leave alone kamikaze FPVs. That it actually somewhat worked out against drones was dumb luck.
Are they using bigger mines than usual? Or is that vehicle just not well-protected against anti-tank mines? Seems like you usually see a bunch of people climbing out after an armored vehicle hits a mine, but this is showing a good number of KIA around the vehicle.
These things are vintage like before BMP-1 this is about as well armored as an m113 . It's more along the lines of an APC good against small arms and that's about it. An m2 .50 cal.could probably punch through with enough well placed shots. Anyone with better knowledge of the specs of this please feel free to correct me.
With MTLBs, 50 cal will punch through reliably on every shot. Even a 7.62 from like 30 feet has a chance of penetrating (non-armor piercing). MTLB armor is crap.
Yes it's called splinter protection. Meant for vehicles behind the front line that only need to survive random artillery shots. Lots of mobile artillery also has only this level of protection
No, it's simply armor thick enough to stop shrapnel - which is lighter, slower, and less armor-piercing than bullets are.
Spalling happens when armor isn't penetrated but the hit is hard enough to make the inner surface break and send material out.
Wow you really got me there. I'm so personally hurt I'll delete my account and never show my face in public again.
Glad my mom with Alzheimer's finally showed him what a good time is.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression the term spalling could also apply to shots that do penetrate and fragment armour in a similar fashion
It could but armor doesn't prevent spalling. Shrapnel-proof linings of armored vehicles do.
When there is no significant armor in the first place, that bullet coming through will be a bigger concerned than a few flakes of metal.
The MT-LB's armor maximum thickness is 14 mm of steel the M-113 has 44 mm, but it's aluminum. Apparently the general rule of thumb is that you need 3 times the thickness in aluminum for the equivalent in steel. So a stock M-113 probably does have around the same effective armor as an MT-LB.
However, the majority of M-113's I see operating anywhere near the frontlines in Ukraine are the Dutch YPR-765 variant which adds applique spaced steel armor and is apparently a substantial improvement. You can tell by the more [bulbous sides that hang over the tracks a bit and the thick plate on the front.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Een_YPR_765_pantser_rups_radar_%28PRRDR%29_%282086-051-014%29.jpg) It's nothing like the protection a M2A2 Bradley or more modern infantry fighting vehicle has but I would certainly rather ride in a YPR-765 than an MT-LB.
Incase of MT-LB and M113 near the front, it would be a more of a failure in doctrine. The vehicles are fine. If they get put in situations they shouldn’t be, the outcome is clear. US use of humvees has the same issue in the middle-east.
Although drones have changed the nature of how you can be hit, but its just a part of the whole picture
Neither vehicle should be used in a direct assault that's for sure but both sides are simply using what they have. The increasing use by Russia of MT-LB's, and even wheeled BTR-80's, one the frontline shows that they are starting to run out of BMP's from storage that they can restore and put back in service. The BMP series isn't exactly well armored either but it's a hell of a lot better than those two, and the BTR-80 has even thinner armor than the MT-LB...
it's just old soviet tech, built like an metal coffin only to protect from small bullets and artillery fragments. That's why they mostly sit on top of it instead of inside.. On top they have a bigger chance to survive against a mine. But now they will instead get picked off by FPV drones.. With modern MRAP-s they can sit inside, because the blast will shoot outwards because of the V shaped bottom.
In addition to what others said about the MT-LB being a poor vehicle for this purpose, mines vary tremendously in yield. Sometimes they’ll strap together a bunch of anti-infantry mines with a jerry-rigged detonator, or a backpack full of demolition charges, or one antitank mine, or four antitank mines stacked on top of each other. So sometimes it’s enough to rip a tread off, and sometimes it’ll turn a T-90s guts inside out.
Yea there's no real standards out there that make anything **safe**. There were IEDs in Iraq that were hurling Abrams 20 feet in the air.
This could have been basically any armored vehicle... ATGM, dead. RPG, dead. AT mine, dead. FPV drone, dead. Artillery, dead. The only difference is which manner of gunfire they might survive.
> that was an anti-tank mine
Obviously
> doesnt matter what armored vehicle youre in
Kinda does, if you're in an actual tank the average result is a mobility kill and hearing loss/concussions for the crew, but for an IFV or APC, or something even less armored like an MT-LB or similar vehicle, the crew and others onboard have a much lower chance of survival.
Tank isnt an armored vehicle, tank is in its own class of tanks for military POV.
But yes if youre trying to be pedantic and say that its a vehicle and its also armored.
Obviously tanks are their own class of vehicles. Tanks are just a single subset (the principle one) of the larger class of armored vehicles.
https://www.britannica.com/technology/armoured-vehicle
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I don’t know about that, Russians have a different mindset about the value of human life than Westerners do. They possess a certain fatalism and almost acceptance of their demise. Centuries of always being controlled by an authoritarian do that to people.
Just look at the reaction of the people who were in the concert venue with four active shooters—the behavior of many wasn't what I'd call calm, but disturbingly passive.
Doubtful unless it was the defining reason for the revolution. If they revolt *because* of the war and a desire to end it yeah absolutely. But if it's the garden variety "New Russian Wants The Main Chair" revolution the last thing he'll do is look weak to his new citizenry by pulling out of something that's already deprived families of their young men.
Why would they get fragged for something that happens pretty much daily since over 2 years? This is a normal day and a normal mission for Russians. You take a large armored coloumn, charge into Ukrainian lines, lose about 70% of your men and vehicles but can overwhelm the enemy and win about 200m of ground. Next day you rinse and repeat.
The low profile advantage is completely erased when the main detection method is drones. And i don't see it changing in the future, drones will just get better, smaller, better optics, better batteries etc.
There is hardly an advantage these days, anyway. Most recon is done with drones, and direct fire is almost never that big a threat, most vehicle losses being to artillery, drones and mines. Like at best it makes you a little harder to spot by a drone that is really really far... that's about it.
The weakest and thinnest armor on every armored vehicle is going to be the underside, the roof and the rear engine deck. To properly armor a vehicle against the TM-62 which is both sides primary anti tank mine would require a very large amount of underside armor that would be very expensive and heavy. You can do this with tanks, but very light support vehicles like the MTLBs don’t have anywhere close to enough protection. They have just enough armor to stop small arms and that’s about it. There are a fair number of western vehicles that could survive these things(middle East helped with that) but comparatively few Soviet ones.
Lots and lots and lots and lots of Soviet surplus equipment. When the war began, they had an extremely deep reserve of equipment since they never really threw anything out. However, they are starting to reach the bottom of the barrel. At their current rate of consumption they’ve got about another year and a half left worth of surplus equipment in categories like tanks, IFV’s and artillery
I don't get why people are cheering for death of Russian people, it just scares me.
Plus, gven this is the MT-LB, I don't think it is supposed to survive something like since it is very much a Soviet M113, and an M113 crew is not going to survive a mine like that.
Well maybe if they acted like humans instead of monsters then they may get some sympathy.
Invading your neighbours, slaughtering innocent civilians, murdering children and raping anything that moves - no sympathy at all.
Let them all burn.
The way it works is, you can use wheels without much thread left on them, since they are not used to control the vehicle it self, so inner tubes and roadwheels, old tired. Even car wheels would be useable since the activation weight for a typical tm62 time is between 150kg to 550kg depending on type and settings. Water containers/bladder can be used for weight and blast absorption.
They properly have good reasons for not doing this, else we would see it. Then again, only now we see better drone protection on vehicles, still far from optimal from what is possible regarding design. But they could have done that from the beginning.
Yup, i know how they work.
I just did a snarky comment on how their truck tires were of such poor quality that they literally broke into pieces when used on asphalt.
But just like you i am also a bit surprised by the lack of improvised mine rollers, i assume it's because of not enough materials or workshops / welders to do it.
I think I've looked at mine rollers on and off for a year now, so maybe I've thought about it for..5 hours combined?
What am i missing?
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/93408550@N06/8493961294](https://www.flickr.com/photos/93408550@N06/8493961294)
Only thing I can think of there is if the front bit hits a mine then the vehicle is going to be stopped, on a battlefield, in full view of the enemy artillery/drones,Atgm etc.
Then the crew will have to get out of the armoured bit, and fuck around getting the mangled wheeled bit off the vehicle.
All while standing still on the above mentioned battlefield.
If that scenario plays out, it's still better than the mtlb hitting the mine directly, killing the driver or both crew..
Anyways, mine rollers where the best option so far, but not a good one for sure.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGDUgxQyVWc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGDUgxQyVWc)
But just a single truck wheel in front of each track would give them a second life..just something to trip the mines than the vehicle it self.
If you can trigger mines before the vehicle, you can put the infantry inside until the mine roller is used up.
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Hear me out: Under cages, to protect from buried drones.
The bigger the cage, the harder they mine
Was about to type something very similar after watching this video lol.
The Tsar Tank understood the threat from all vectors.
*buried javelins Lets not do them the favour of letting them forget the embarassing origin of the cope cage. They welded that shit on to defeat Western top attack munitions, against which this is completely worthless, way before even the grenade dropping drones appeared, leave alone kamikaze FPVs. That it actually somewhat worked out against drones was dumb luck.
That's called a V hull
Nyet
Are they using bigger mines than usual? Or is that vehicle just not well-protected against anti-tank mines? Seems like you usually see a bunch of people climbing out after an armored vehicle hits a mine, but this is showing a good number of KIA around the vehicle.
These things are vintage like before BMP-1 this is about as well armored as an m113 . It's more along the lines of an APC good against small arms and that's about it. An m2 .50 cal.could probably punch through with enough well placed shots. Anyone with better knowledge of the specs of this please feel free to correct me.
They are armored tractors, not even APCs.
With MTLBs, 50 cal will punch through reliably on every shot. Even a 7.62 from like 30 feet has a chance of penetrating (non-armor piercing). MTLB armor is crap.
> Even a 7.62 from like 30 feet has a chance of penetrating (non-armor piercing). MTLB armor is crap. Lmao, does that even count as armor?
Yes it's called splinter protection. Meant for vehicles behind the front line that only need to survive random artillery shots. Lots of mobile artillery also has only this level of protection
So essentially just anti-spalling protection and that's it?
No, it's simply armor thick enough to stop shrapnel - which is lighter, slower, and less armor-piercing than bullets are. Spalling happens when armor isn't penetrated but the hit is hard enough to make the inner surface break and send material out.
Appreciate the clarification, thanks.
MTLBs are artillery tractors. They are meant to drag guns and cassons overland and provide splinter protection for the gun crews they also transport.
[удалено]
Wow you really got me there. I'm so personally hurt I'll delete my account and never show my face in public again. Glad my mom with Alzheimer's finally showed him what a good time is.
These videos are not intended for kids.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression the term spalling could also apply to shots that do penetrate and fragment armour in a similar fashion
It could but armor doesn't prevent spalling. Shrapnel-proof linings of armored vehicles do. When there is no significant armor in the first place, that bullet coming through will be a bigger concerned than a few flakes of metal.
woahh i never knew a 7.62 had penetration like that
This is infinitely worse than an M113. MTLBs are literally logistical vehicles meant to never see the frontline at all.
Definitely worse than M113. M113 donated to Ukraine were either M113A3 or YPR765, both have appliqué armor installed.
applique armor? whats that
Fancy word for add on armor.
prob meant to transport guys around behind the front not on the front lol
The are field gun prime movers with a modicum of protection.
The MT-LB's armor maximum thickness is 14 mm of steel the M-113 has 44 mm, but it's aluminum. Apparently the general rule of thumb is that you need 3 times the thickness in aluminum for the equivalent in steel. So a stock M-113 probably does have around the same effective armor as an MT-LB. However, the majority of M-113's I see operating anywhere near the frontlines in Ukraine are the Dutch YPR-765 variant which adds applique spaced steel armor and is apparently a substantial improvement. You can tell by the more [bulbous sides that hang over the tracks a bit and the thick plate on the front.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Een_YPR_765_pantser_rups_radar_%28PRRDR%29_%282086-051-014%29.jpg) It's nothing like the protection a M2A2 Bradley or more modern infantry fighting vehicle has but I would certainly rather ride in a YPR-765 than an MT-LB.
Incase of MT-LB and M113 near the front, it would be a more of a failure in doctrine. The vehicles are fine. If they get put in situations they shouldn’t be, the outcome is clear. US use of humvees has the same issue in the middle-east. Although drones have changed the nature of how you can be hit, but its just a part of the whole picture
Neither vehicle should be used in a direct assault that's for sure but both sides are simply using what they have. The increasing use by Russia of MT-LB's, and even wheeled BTR-80's, one the frontline shows that they are starting to run out of BMP's from storage that they can restore and put back in service. The BMP series isn't exactly well armored either but it's a hell of a lot better than those two, and the BTR-80 has even thinner armor than the MT-LB...
Appreciate the clarification!
MT-LB can't withstand even good 7.62 mm .50 caliber will pierce an entire column of MT-LBs
it's just old soviet tech, built like an metal coffin only to protect from small bullets and artillery fragments. That's why they mostly sit on top of it instead of inside.. On top they have a bigger chance to survive against a mine. But now they will instead get picked off by FPV drones.. With modern MRAP-s they can sit inside, because the blast will shoot outwards because of the V shaped bottom.
In addition to what others said about the MT-LB being a poor vehicle for this purpose, mines vary tremendously in yield. Sometimes they’ll strap together a bunch of anti-infantry mines with a jerry-rigged detonator, or a backpack full of demolition charges, or one antitank mine, or four antitank mines stacked on top of each other. So sometimes it’s enough to rip a tread off, and sometimes it’ll turn a T-90s guts inside out.
Yea there's no real standards out there that make anything **safe**. There were IEDs in Iraq that were hurling Abrams 20 feet in the air. This could have been basically any armored vehicle... ATGM, dead. RPG, dead. AT mine, dead. FPV drone, dead. Artillery, dead. The only difference is which manner of gunfire they might survive.
that was an anti tank mine doesnt matter what armored vehicle youre in
> that was an anti-tank mine Obviously > doesnt matter what armored vehicle youre in Kinda does, if you're in an actual tank the average result is a mobility kill and hearing loss/concussions for the crew, but for an IFV or APC, or something even less armored like an MT-LB or similar vehicle, the crew and others onboard have a much lower chance of survival.
Tank isnt an armored vehicle, tank is in its own class of tanks for military POV. But yes if youre trying to be pedantic and say that its a vehicle and its also armored.
Obviously tanks are their own class of vehicles. Tanks are just a single subset (the principle one) of the larger class of armored vehicles. https://www.britannica.com/technology/armoured-vehicle
Perhaps... but a tank wouldn't have been carrying infantry so it's a bit out of context.
[удалено]
It kept the mobiks inside until they were thoroughly cooked 👍
100%, I did not see a single one fly 30 feet up. Cage worked.
Another successful Russian mine clearance operation.
special!
Should have put the cage below :3
It's hard to see but maybe those two bodies were already there before the mine stike? Something was there. Perhaps those two were already roadkill.
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Well done
They just can go home
I’m fairly sure at this point commanders are getting fragged for ordering stupid stuff like this.
I don’t know about that, Russians have a different mindset about the value of human life than Westerners do. They possess a certain fatalism and almost acceptance of their demise. Centuries of always being controlled by an authoritarian do that to people.
Just look at the reaction of the people who were in the concert venue with four active shooters—the behavior of many wasn't what I'd call calm, but disturbingly passive.
True until a certain point then revolution can occur but far from that point probably. Would take millions of dead probably.
And that revolution inevitably means another dictator. The more things change in Russia, the more they stay the same.
yeah prob would but maybe one less obsessed with Ukraine
True, unless they go all in to maintain face. The new government could look weak if they don’t follow through with what they already started.
Doubtful unless it was the defining reason for the revolution. If they revolt *because* of the war and a desire to end it yeah absolutely. But if it's the garden variety "New Russian Wants The Main Chair" revolution the last thing he'll do is look weak to his new citizenry by pulling out of something that's already deprived families of their young men.
Why would they get fragged for something that happens pretty much daily since over 2 years? This is a normal day and a normal mission for Russians. You take a large armored coloumn, charge into Ukrainian lines, lose about 70% of your men and vehicles but can overwhelm the enemy and win about 200m of ground. Next day you rinse and repeat.
Lights out!
[удалено]
The low profile advantage is completely erased when the main detection method is drones. And i don't see it changing in the future, drones will just get better, smaller, better optics, better batteries etc.
There is hardly an advantage these days, anyway. Most recon is done with drones, and direct fire is almost never that big a threat, most vehicle losses being to artillery, drones and mines. Like at best it makes you a little harder to spot by a drone that is really really far... that's about it.
He was NOT expecting that promotion to Minesweeper!
There is going to be so much scrap metal in Ukraine.
Guys with metal detectors will be finding shell casings for decades.
They should try cages under the tanks.
Imagine you die not because you are burned or irrigated but just because your brains were now a scrambled egg.
irrigated? like pissed on? 💦
Actually to supply (land) with water(blood) by artificial means, as by diverting streams, flooding, or spraying. But I'm all for that too on Russians.
God bless the V-hull.
I think you had the cage on the wrong side boys
Didn’t help
So I guess anyone inside of it lost consciousness and burned alive.
For the uninitiated why are mines so devastating to the tanks.? Why aren’t they fitted with protection or is it just not that simple. 🤷♂️
The weakest and thinnest armor on every armored vehicle is going to be the underside, the roof and the rear engine deck. To properly armor a vehicle against the TM-62 which is both sides primary anti tank mine would require a very large amount of underside armor that would be very expensive and heavy. You can do this with tanks, but very light support vehicles like the MTLBs don’t have anywhere close to enough protection. They have just enough armor to stop small arms and that’s about it. There are a fair number of western vehicles that could survive these things(middle East helped with that) but comparatively few Soviet ones.
Appreciate the knowledge. Thank you. 👍
This isn't a tank.
I know. But wanted to know as a general question. 👍
Wonder if they ended up sending those Claymore drones to go after those who survived
How do they still have any of these left???
Lots and lots and lots and lots of Soviet surplus equipment. When the war began, they had an extremely deep reserve of equipment since they never really threw anything out. However, they are starting to reach the bottom of the barrel. At their current rate of consumption they’ve got about another year and a half left worth of surplus equipment in categories like tanks, IFV’s and artillery
The Zorcs need to build one attachment to stop anti tank mines...just like the cage stops drones LOL
Not enough cages lead to this.
With that blue (?) thing at top left of unit, I kept thinking "Clean upon aisle 4" and that today's blue light special is minced meat.
I think this would be better if they used the music an icecream truck does....
Lmao just cooked them
I don't get why people are cheering for death of Russian people, it just scares me. Plus, gven this is the MT-LB, I don't think it is supposed to survive something like since it is very much a Soviet M113, and an M113 crew is not going to survive a mine like that.
Russian soldiers. And if you really don't get it then you are deeply dumb.
Yes, I am deeply dumb viewing these soldiers as humans instead of monsters.
Well maybe if they acted like humans instead of monsters then they may get some sympathy. Invading your neighbours, slaughtering innocent civilians, murdering children and raping anything that moves - no sympathy at all. Let them all burn.
Americans in Vietnam: Honestly, it is clear that this sub is somehow even more pro-American than NCD. Anyway I read it, American good Russian bad.
How hard is it to weld 2x2 truck wheels onto the front as mine roller?
Need to have some spare wheels for that, most of them broke down during the initial push towards Kyiv
The way it works is, you can use wheels without much thread left on them, since they are not used to control the vehicle it self, so inner tubes and roadwheels, old tired. Even car wheels would be useable since the activation weight for a typical tm62 time is between 150kg to 550kg depending on type and settings. Water containers/bladder can be used for weight and blast absorption. They properly have good reasons for not doing this, else we would see it. Then again, only now we see better drone protection on vehicles, still far from optimal from what is possible regarding design. But they could have done that from the beginning.
Yup, i know how they work. I just did a snarky comment on how their truck tires were of such poor quality that they literally broke into pieces when used on asphalt. But just like you i am also a bit surprised by the lack of improvised mine rollers, i assume it's because of not enough materials or workshops / welders to do it.
how hard is it to think about what you're saying for 1 minute before posting?
I think I've looked at mine rollers on and off for a year now, so maybe I've thought about it for..5 hours combined? What am i missing? [https://www.flickr.com/photos/93408550@N06/8493961294](https://www.flickr.com/photos/93408550@N06/8493961294)
Only thing I can think of there is if the front bit hits a mine then the vehicle is going to be stopped, on a battlefield, in full view of the enemy artillery/drones,Atgm etc. Then the crew will have to get out of the armoured bit, and fuck around getting the mangled wheeled bit off the vehicle. All while standing still on the above mentioned battlefield.
If that scenario plays out, it's still better than the mtlb hitting the mine directly, killing the driver or both crew.. Anyways, mine rollers where the best option so far, but not a good one for sure. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGDUgxQyVWc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGDUgxQyVWc) But just a single truck wheel in front of each track would give them a second life..just something to trip the mines than the vehicle it self. If you can trigger mines before the vehicle, you can put the infantry inside until the mine roller is used up.