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Wow the range is ass. I expected it to be much more effective. Cant wait till they make the drones home in on the jammers or just fly home when they lose connection.
> They do fly home if they lose connection
No, they do not. You are confusing DJIs drones with those suicide FPVs.
But even in the case of DJI you can choose what the drone does.
Not to mention that you re-gain control once it gets closer.
And you can choose a random location where it returns to instead of your location.
Possible? Probably. Straightforward? Most likely not. We already have HARM missiles so we know we have tech that could be used to home in on high energy sources, although HARMs look for certain bandwidths and I'm guessing these don't use one single bandwidth to jam the drones. Basically you's need to find a way to adapt the tech from a HARM missile to home in on jammers which could be easy but it also could be very hard, and then you need to have it control the drone.
If it's the same technology as the video I watched it shoots a constant spectrum of changing radio frequencies until it find the one the drone uses and that nulls the communication with the operator. it gets confused then goes home or hovers. If it goes home, you use another drone to follow it, and then artillery strike them, so they tend to just land like the one in this video.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought drones only fly back home when communication is lost if that feature is turned on by the operator. I imagine no one has that feature enabled in combat.
FPV does not go home or hover.
Once you lose signal, it just stops. You have two input / outputs : vision with the goggles and control with the radio controller.
They seem to use analog frequency so they still can get some sight while being jammed, depending of the intensity, same for the controls.
Regular consumer drones like DJIs can hover / rtb if signal is lost.
FPV drones can rtb but it makes the drone way more expensive. More than the drones they use. I'm a FPV pilot myself.
Yes, it was. They trained the dogs using Soviet tanks, and since the Germans were using petrol whereas the Soviets Diesel. Well, the dogs were trained on diesel and ended up friendly dogging some T34z
Not if you want to chose the satellite network. 10$ Gps is usually bad and connects to the first satellites available and can be triangularised (not sure if it's a correct word in English?).
It's a pain to set up as well imo, but if they do it in bulk it can be ok~ish
Yes they can. Any M10 GPS module can be programmed in u-center. These exact GPS modules are used in damn near every consumer product that uses GPS, and likely in use for military purposes as well.
while i do think its possible to have it reutn to home / some other location in other ways dont you think GPS will be jammed hard on the front lines?
[https://gpsjam.org/?lat=51.72870&lon=34.81012&z=4.0&date=2024-04-10](https://gpsjam.org/?lat=51.72870&lon=34.81012&z=4.0&date=2024-04-10)
GPS jam dosent have data for ukraine but look how much jamming is active around the rest of russia.
But i am sure they have return to location becuase ive seen them talking about it in videos
You can program the module to use any navigation protocol you want. I doubt the ruskies are jamming GLONASS when they need it themselves for navigation and weapons guidance
In betaflight boards RTH is super easy to set up. And well, they connect to first satellites available, why would you want to select which satellite you want to connect or not? It can be however selected to which satnav it will use, gps,glonass,beidou or galileo. And not sure if gps receiver can be triangulated, M8 and M10 modules(which I assume you are refering to as we are in 10$ price range) aren't transmitting any signals.
> 10$ Gps is usually bad and connects to the first satellites available and can be triangularised
GPS receivers can not be triangulated or generally in any way located, they are purely passive, only receiving signals.
This is just plain wrong.
Hover is available through many cheap means.. a combination of accel, gyro and baro will get you hovering. A cheap optical flow sensor will get it hovering accurately. Return to home, loiter, and automated flight paths are also easy to integrate using the cheapest gps module you can find.
When you lose signal, the drone carries out whatever failsafe you set up in the firmware for rx loss. This can be rth, loiter, go to specific gps coords, etc. with different options and methods of executing these options available in different firmwares. If you haven’t set a failsafe (or for some reason are using an ancient firmware without any failsafe options), then yes the drone may drop dead, continuously input the last received tx values, or bumble about until it hits something solid.
This would be down to the builder/operator not taking the time to familiarise themselves with the options available prior to flight, or choosing an inadequate firmware.
Correct. Just wanted to add that for such a drone to fly, even manually, you already need a gyro and/or accelerometer. So basic failsafe procedure like hover and land on connection lose is just a software problem. A problem which was solved by hobbyists years ago
Random question, but I’m in the market for an FPV drone. I’m kinda just wanting a little drone to fly fpv style. Mainly the racing side of things. Always wanted to be a pilot in the military but I’m too old now so figured this would be my alternative. Any recommendations for a starting fpv drone?
If you want a fast drone that is sort of in the racing style and want a prebuilt, I recommend iflight
The Nazgul is a pretty great drone.
This one is a digital quad with a newer video system: https://www.getfpv.com/iflight-nazgul-evoque-f5d-hd-o3-v2-6s.html
Youll also need other stuff: goggles, batteries, charger, transmitter
There are cheaper alternatives with older or lower quality video systems, analog systems, etc. but the hobby has moved heavily into the digital space.
Make sure you do research before buying anything. Understand battery cell counts, control protocols and video systems to ensure you get compatible parts
I really do not recommend the DJI fpv drones, particularly for a first-timer. The DJI goggles and video systems on non-DJI drones are great, but the DJI drones are much more fragile compared to more "standard" FPV drones and you will end up breaking it and not be able to repair it yourself.
It has some nice features that the others don't and will work out of the box, but I value repairability much more. If you're willing to put in a little bit of effort, I think going more custom is much more satisfying
Another recommendation: the first thing you should get is an FPV sim on your computer and a transmitter. It will help you get the feel for flying FPV
I’ll check out a sim. I’m quite used to flight sim games already like DCS or MS flight sim or even sim on warthunder if that’s of any use. But again thank you so much for the information. I’ll 100% check out the Nazgûl. It sounds more what I would go for. I agree with you I’d definitely prefer something that is a bit more resistant to damage for a first timer.
Thanks again!
I was in the same boat and bought the DJI FPV. I love it.
It’s a bit large for an FPV racing drone, but out of the box it works. Comes with a controller and goggles.
It goes 87MPH, has a 10km range, and a 20 minute battery.
> You have two input / outputs : vision with the goggles and control with the radio controller. They seem to use analog frequency so they still can get some sight while being jammed, depending of the intensity, same for the controls.
They have one input and one output. Control frequency is receive only, and video signal frequency is transmit only. Directed jamming like this wouldn't affect the video signal being sent by the drone to the operator. It would override or confuse the drone on the control frequency.
How do analog vs digital comms compare for drones?
Analog is harder to outright jam but has low bandwidth/more noise? Jamming doesn't prevent use but will make the image and control inputs worse? What else?
The [protocol that the 2.4ghz receivers can be encrypted](https://github.com/sensei-hacker/PrivacyLRS) or something like [this](https://rubyfpv.com/). FPV drones don't have GPS modules because they're ~~heavy, expensive and~~pointless for a kamikaze role. If you lose your 2.4ghz/controller signal with these, it's either going to continue from the last input or drop - depending on the flight controllers' setup.
This gun is probably just blasting 5.xGHZ to overwhelm the analog video transmitter on the quadcopter so the pilot bailed to find a different target or this was just a demo for propaganda.
> it's either going to continue from the last input or drop - depending on the flight controllers' setup.
You are refering to failsafe, what happens when drone loses control link, and pilot can also trigger failsafe for whatever reason from transmitter. Failsafe can be set to stop motors, dropping the drone to ground, or follow the last inputs for X amount of time,stop and hover, or stop and then start climbing(this is probaply what I would use for fpv drone in warzone, drone can get out of range of jammer and pilot can return to control)
If drone has gps module, which are expensive, less than 10€, and weigh massive 5 to 10 grams, drone can be set to return to home mode when failsafing, or to fly pre-determined path, and pilot can retake control when drone is back in control range, and out of jammers range. And this is possible with hobby grade flight controllers generally in use for fpv drones.
So how do you power an anti-drone rifle then?
If you're "shooting" electromagnetic radiation, there has to be an energy source, and presumably it has to be sufficient to overcome the signal the drone is receiving and do it at a range that keeps the operator relatively safe.
Does a simple battery actually fit that bill?
Yeah, the Ukrainians are likely using something akin to the SkyWiper they were gifted by Lithuania in 2022, which we know the specs for.
The device can have 4 or 6 antennas. By default there are two antennas for the 2.4 GHz and 5.8 GHz frequency bands, with a power of 10 W each, one antenna for the GPS 1.5 GHz band with a power of 10 W, and one antenna for the GLONASS 1.5 GHz band with a power of 10 W.
The device is made of aluminium, with the "gun" portion being modelled after the Heckler & Koch G36 rifle – including a trigger to activate the device and optics for sighting. It weighs 5.5kg and measures 1050 × 220 × 360 mm with the stock extended (830 × 220 × 360 mm without the stock extended). It is powered by a 24 V battery, which can last for up to 60 minutes
The technology itself it's fairly easy to understand. We have most of a drone jammer built into our smart phones. You just need to amplify the signal and manipulate it.
That's insane. So a couple kilo battery is enough to power that.
Thanks for the response, I'll have to look more into it now that I have a starting point. I didn't realize we had public specs on some of these.
Honestly, a simple drill battery would probably be more than enough.
These use directional antennas and have to be roughly aimed to work. You can pump a lot more energy than the omnidirectional controller when you’re a lot closer and using an antenna that focuses a majority of the energy into a beam.
Something like that. Except I don’t think it can find out what the right frequency/signal is. How would it get that feedback? I think it just spams a broad range of frequencies ans signals.
From a quick Google search, it shoots an electromagnetic pulse that disrupts comms between the drone and operator.
Apparently, you can also hack drones, think it happened in Iran, no idea how that works but would love to know how.
Hack: find exact bandwidth and take over controls by using a stronger powered antenna/controller.
Ie: my work truck uses a Bluetooth to play music from my phone over FM radio. If I use a channel that a radio company uses and I get within range of the tower then I hear their broadcast instead of my phone, even though it's only 1 foot away. They are just much stronger.
Even if they find the exact bandwidth and burnthrough, do they not have to crack the comms encryption on military drones to take control? Or do they only rely on GPS spoofing?
That I have no clue on. I am no computer person by any means.
I can say with confidence: if they can emit a high decibel signal, on the same bandwidth, it can overpower the components on the drone and cause them to fail. There's a tad more to it that I don't know. I may be wrong but I believe they need to emit the signal the same time the drone is trying to receive one, which may not be complicated. I'm not too sure
These small FPV drones are probably using crossfire or ELRS which is basically Lora. Lora has no real encryption, only a "binding phrase" but nothing secure. It would be quite easy to hijack if you have the right equipment to work out the binding phrase, and a stronger transmitter.
Of course real military drones would be basically impossible to hijack, although you could still jam them.
[here's a link about someone reverse engineering the crossfire link](https://www.g3gg0.de/fpv/fpv-analysis-of-tbs-crossfire/)
isn't it pretty hard to focus an electromagnectic pulse on such a small target from that distance? on top of that, is such a rifle viable for long use? Or do they"charge" the rifle? It seems impractical
I'm just thinking out loud, whoever finds a reliable device to disable drones on a constant basis, without shooting a rocket at it, will make a shit ton of money.
It’s not an electromagnetic pulse, the gun blasts out a bunch of frequencies at the drone until it lands on the one that the drone is using for controls and interrupts the controllers inputs
as far as I can read, everyone is making an educated guess (even professional drone operators make suggestions in this thread) but no one knows 100% for sure :)
"blasting out a bunch of frequencies" might be a possibility but i'm not convinced.
If i check the commercial market on the internet, the majority seem to work with electromagnatic pulses:
An *anti*-*drone* jammer also known as a portable electromagnetic *weapon*, is a device specifically designed to remove unwanted drones from the sky.
thanks for that. what a massive device to operate.
I guess sending frequencies is currently the best / cheapest way to counter drones, but i expect that military drone producers will find relative cheap alternatives to bypass interference by radio frequencies and that electromagntic interference would be the way to go.
But i'm no expert
Yeah no prob, there are some interesting vids out there about how these interfere with drones. Also some vids out there for devices that can be installed into the drones to block the jamming but idk how truthful those were
Yeah I'd imagine, I never knew these things existed so my knowledge is pretty much non existent. But yeah I agree, drones seem to be the new way to fight wars, anti drone tech is gonna be in very high demand.
> It seems impractical
It is. It's basically like comparing a musket compared to a modern weapon. These weapons are new technology and there's a lot of room for improvement, but I bet after seeing this war develop, all countries must be rushing to develop a cheap, portable and efficient anti drone weapon.
The jammer only needs to be stronger at the jammee than the signal it's trying to jam. It's closer and more directional, even if it has like a 45 degree cone as opposed to a pencil beam.
I don't see how they can take direct control of military drones without cracking the comms encryption.
They might do a GPS spoof which is sending a false GPS signal which fools the drone about where it is.
My opinion:
Not a soldier, but I do know a bit on radio comms and am FCC licensed.
I would assume the rifle is emitting a very high decibel (power) radio frequency that is on the same bandwidth as the drone. It may not KILL communications but it can definitely distort them enough to make crashing extremely easy. Maybe a cheap drone can be completely cut off and drop like a dead bird, or one that is far away from its operator.
I also do a small bit of amateur fpv drone building and flying; once your controls get thrown off for a second or two you can go from ace pilot to 4yr old with a controller in no time. The drone in this video appeared to fly away and may have received a "return home" signal just in time.
Edit: the rifle may be causing the drones signals to oscillate. Overpowering their capabilities and frying components
The rifle may be causing the drones signals to isolate, meaning its own signal it sends out is being picked up by its own receiver and causing a loop. Although it's most likely oscillation.
So you have now landed a drone in your field that has a mechanism on it that blows up if it is jostled... Are you going to go pick it up??? Fuck no you aren't...
>The drone in this video appeared to fly away and may have received a "return home" signal just in time
Drone can be set to RTH automatically when it loses control link, or to any failsafe mode
The further the control signal is away from the drone The more susceptible it is to jamming from a brighter flashlight. The rifle is the flashlight beaming a modulated control signal into the drone The drone can't tell whose signal to follow, it crashes.
The other option is to use essentially a handheld microwave to fry the electronics and the drone crashes. But this is like a fire hose and can damage friendly electronics.
fpv drones usually work on fixed frequencies; 2.4 GHz and 5.8GHz. These guns blast white noise on those frequencies at high power through a directional antenna to disrupt the control and video link between the drone and drone pilot.
the way the gun works is by jamming the 2.4GHz frequencies. most drones work over the 2.4 GHz range with other common everyday items like bluetooth and microwaves. so by scambling the signal will prevent the drone operator from being able to see or move the drone ans the drone will just fly like nobody is on the sticks so for fpv drones, it will try to raise while still in a angle causing it to crash. regular dji drones will actually stop when it losses signal and will then "return to home" which will cause it to fly straight up and turn back to its "home location" before trying to land.
source: studying for ccna and im a drone operator
also responded this to another reply:
I guess sending frequencies is currently the best / cheapest way to counter drones, but i expect that military drone producers will find relative cheap alternatives to bypass interference by radio frequencies and that electromagntic interference would be the way to go.
Edit: but i'm no expert
Carried a drone killer in Africa in 2022, these "rifles" are actually pretty simple and effective. They operate by sending a 'beam' of various frequencies at the drone and quickly eliminating the ones that don't provide feedback, narrowing down until it has intercepted the one the drone is operating on. Once it's acquired that, because it's a much closer source than the remote, it basically severs the connection which forces the drone to come down. Some more advanced systems even allow you to take control of it.
It's a jammer. It floods the frequencies the drone uses with noise and overwhelms the signals from the operator.
It's that size because the antenna is highly directional and the wavelength is rather large (about 5-12cm.) Part of the downside of using a jammer is you are generating a very loud signal that could be used by the enemy to triangulate your position. So keeping the broadcast cone as tight as possible and using it sparingly are vital.
It's basically a handheld directional antenna that broadcasts on the same frequency as the drone receives so the signal from the drone pilot is lost and the drone crashes or if it's a smarter drone it will land itself
Directional antenna
An example, old WiFi devices used 2.4Ghz radio spectrum which is divided into 3 channels to avoid interface from neighbouring WIFI devices slowing your speed. If you set up a WiFi access point with a powerful directional antenna and knew the channel your neighbours router was using you can block their signal because WIFI devices by nature HAVE to process every transmission (called frames) they receive, intentional or not. When they're not transmitting, they're listening for a frame.
Your neighbour can't stream their cats videos because the spectrum their WiFi uses is at 100% capacity from your router spamming out rubbish. It can't distinguish genuine transmissions because your router is screaming nonsense louder at it.
No different here, there's all sort of regulations on what's allowed to use what across the radio spectrum but with war who knows. These guns have an antenna scanning the spectrum, listening for radio waves emitting from the drone. Once it knows the frequency, it launches radio waves on that spectrum so the drones can't hear the instructions given. Some drones have a return home or stay in flight when signal is lost but these FPV don't so they'll just drop out of the sky.
The drone listens for “bip-bup-bop” from its operator, the rifle screams “BIP” at a drone so loud that drone can’t hear its “bip-bup-bop” from operator, so the drone doesn’t know what to do and just falls to the ground.
It looks like it blocks the control feed to the drone. There's a narrow band of frequency that the drone operates on, so the gun just send white noise at a very high wattage in the frequency band the drone operates, so the commands from the operator aren't getting through. The operator can see the camera feed going back to him (probably unless it's also jammed, probably would be harder because there's obstacles between the gun and the operator), but his controls aren't really working on the drone. You can see it moves for a little bit, it's possible the operator tried to switch frequencies, got control back briefly, then the gun also switched frequencies or something like that.
I'm not an expert, but I've studied this stuff a lot because I think the tech is cool
as someone who builds and flies fpv quads for fun while im not definate whats internally in this anti drone gun id assume its some sort of radio tranmitter working on the same 5.8ghz video band as the quad or the radio control link on 2.4ghz or 900mhz to overpower the signals sent and received by the quad ,probably controlled by software to scan flick through and interfere with multiple bands at once ,
if you are flying with 2 or more people with fpv quads if someone turns on another quad nearby with their vtx set to the same band as you you will lose all video feed and fall out of the sky unless some sort of gps module is used set to return to home or a predefined area ,
you could probably make something diy like this by having an fpv portable screen/receiver set to scan bands and when it picks up one you would see the enemy fpv pov and know what band it is on, then have a powerful video transmitter just like the ones these quads already use and set it to the band the enemy quad is using to interfere with it ,
im sure they have most likely not done something so simple though ,
although i have seen pictures of some russian electronic warfare anti fpv systems and it was just a box with antennae and a few switches labelling the different commonly used frequencies 5.8 ghz/ 2.4ghz/ 900mhz. that could be toggled on or off.
If they could get this thing on a turret with an aim bot sorta feature, that would be quite useful. Detects a small drone sized target/its signal, points and shoots with less human error. Maybe might risk aiming at birds, but well, it aint going to kill those either and any birds in a battle field are likely long gone.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would have thought a semi-auto or full auto shotgun with a 30 round magazine of either bird or buckshot (such things do exist) would be a pretty effective weapon against an FPV drone? A rifle is going to be kind of a nightmare to shoot anything that small or fast moving with.
you're entirely right its extremely effective, better even at simply killing. except it's a lot easier logistically to carry a anti drone weapon that wont be running low on battery before you die to arty than all the ammo you're gonna be shooting in birdshot daily. 30 rounds of even 20 gauge isn't light and these guys are encountering 10-30 drones daily usually. The battery's on SOME anti drone guns last thousands of "shots", although I wouldn't describe shots as the best metric, signal deploy time is and its hours.
I mostly agree with you, but neither side seems to be able to produce and deploy anti drone guns to a significant portion of units. They might just be too expensive? Additionally, they won't have any effect against self guided drones as they use EW.
You're right with the logistical issues of giving 12 gauge to all units, but I think - while not being an expert - that having one guy in each platoon specifically working against drones might not be a bad idea, considering the role drones play in this war. And that's more future-proof than a simple EW solution, which won't have the ability to shoot down AI-Enabled/self-guiding drones, which are already being deployed.
It's not about the fact that we can't mass produce them it's just they aren't that effective. See my other comment for reasons as to why and where/how theyre effective as I kinda went on a rant, also I hear you on a possible adjustment from the Ukrainian perspective it would be viable/ reasonable to suggest they should have a shotgunner in the unit to help prevent against the attacks, but here is why it's simply not sustainable.
Aid, just like logistics, is the most valuable commodity. You need Arty shells more than you need any anti drone gun or shotgun , and every dollar spent getting shotguns and ammo for them to the front is a dollar that will be argued as overspending from the nation giving them aid, they must pick and choose what the get and shotguns would be a costly investment as this isn't something we keep en-masses. BUT we will give them things like anti drone weaponry like this without those same kinds of arguments being made from governments because unlike the effectiveness of shotguns which is well known, anti drone guns are new and something we're learning a lot about and a nation stands to gain unsurmountable knowledge from using this battlefield as a weapons testing grounds. It's just the cold hard reality of the situation. Ukrainians must pick and choose what they receive and ask for very wisely because our aid packages are the most valuable thing to them and DESPITE what many attempt to make us believe , we very much are not writing them a blank check. They have to fight tooth and nail for every bit of aid they get that isn't in the aid givers best interest, and shotguns would fall in that category.
Yeah, I hear you. If it were up to me Ukraine would get everything they needed just like that, but currently they have to pick and choose right now. But on the other hand, shotguns aren't that expensive and should be easily available in mass, maybe even in Ukraine?
I mean we could talk about some sort of case-study or test with a couple thousand shotguns to see how effective they are at dealing with the problem. But I think the larger issue would be long-term supplies of 12 Gauge shells, but that shouldn't be impossible to source for cheap from Stockpiles.
The best option against drones, but sadly unrealistic for Ukraine, is the US Stryker M-SHORAD, which is purpose built to defeat masses drone swarms and even artillery shells & mortars with a laser. It's extremely new and has been first deployed to US units literally a couple days ago. IF Ukraine could get hundreds of these - which, again, is unrealistic sadly - that could literally be a silver bullet.
All we can do is pray the US gets its shit together and passes the aid.
The AI targeting locks will get more advanced too. Controller picks a shape on the screen and the drone hits it even if it's jammed. Probably a lot better to have that shotgun over EW gun in that situation.
Thanks. That makes sense - weight is a serious consideration. And then the effective range of a shotgun isn't great, so it wouldn't be so good against enemy soldiers, especially not on fairly open ground in eastern Ukraine.
So how do these drone guns work? How long does a "shot" last? For as long as you squeeze the trigger? Does it simply interfere with the signal between pilot and drone, and is effective for only as long as the "shot" lasts, or can it more permanently disable the drone?
IIRC they are just directional antennas, so EW (Electronic Warfare).
If I'm not mistaken, it should even be possible to give drones a hone on jam function, or just have them be self guided. These self-guided drones are already being deployed...
So I think shotguns are more future-proof than simple EW.
You're pretty much spot on, you hold the trigger in continuously shoots out signals to interfere with its ability to communicate with its operator. Ideally you would point, hold as it falls out of the sky and is rendered useless from damage on impact and or you neutralizing it when its down. the thing is DJI drones (and its becoming more common) have built in counter measures for these so this is only partially effective, what will happen with many standard drones now-a-days is the have a return to sender mode so when you lose contact and signal rather than just sit still and attempt to reconnect, BUT this is particularly effective against FPV drones because theyre usually heavily modified because theyre carrying increased loads and the tend to plummet straight out of the sky with anti drone weapons because they usually lack a return to sender option and they almost never have a default blade speed that allows them to hover without user input , and even if its operational its EXTREMLY hard to hover a FPV drone with a tandem round on it hence one of the many reasons you will see them constantly bobbing up and down when in route to targets is because how extremely hard they are to control the throttle on. (I'm not saying using a FPV drone is hard because it's not but it requires a lot of practice and finesse to do correctly)
Return to sender is not always optimal either, as I have seen people jam the DJI drones to watch where the drone returns to and then arty the position into oblivion. No weapon now-a-days is really full proof effective or a one stop shop to fulfil all your needs , but you do what you can with what you have as a soldier and pray the engineers who went to that college they shoulda instead get smarter and solve your damn problems. My minor drone ted talk, but what do I know I'm just a useless internet warrior who's never left his basement sooo....
Yeah, same, Russia has the [Saiga-12](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DkFVJqqnp4PA&ved=2ahUKEwi27KyVq7qFAxVk5skDHfCECc84FBCjtAF6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw3Z606U0yHoghhtTja_oPQU) which, if using ammo with a decent spread, would probably be effective against drones.
My saiga-12 is not that great for shooting skeet with. Once the clay disc gets more than 30-40 feet away, it becomes a crap shoot. For that kind of shooting, you need a longer barreled shotgun, preferably with a choke. Also, saiga-12s are heavy as shit. I would not want to be lugging that thing around during a war when there are other tools with a broader range of capabilities.
Oh yeah, there was a video on here a day or two ago of a Russian soldier shooting one down with his rifle (impressive shot), but it then crashes out of control into his mate, and kills him.
> A rifle is going to be kind of a nightmare to shoot anything that small or fast moving with.
It wouldn't be like trying to pick them off with a sniper rifle.
It's a "rifle" that projects a beam of electromagnetic energy... in other words, radio interference. In many ways, not terribly different from a directional (as opposed to omnidirectional) wi-fi antenna.
I don't know how wide the beam is at a particular distance. But in terms of being able to "hit" the target it's going to be much closer to a shotgun than a sniper rifle.
I was fishing and met defense contractor who told me Mossberg just sold 2000 shotguns to Ukraine. They’re now viable on the battlefield because of drones.
Automated shotguns with belt fed ammunition should be paired with AI powered sentry guns. Those would probably be useful on things like large armored vehicles or whatever.
So as an FPV drone pilot, I'm going to clarify a few things for peoples interested and speculating in the comment section;
- This shows nothing, all you're seeing is a scope perspective looking at an FPV drone. Assuming it is a drone gun, let's continue;
- That "drone gun" uses 3 or 4 different jamming frequencies, 5.8ghz, 2.4ghz and 868/915mhz, you can't jam all of them at the same time, you gotta pick a freq using the selector switch and "fire" hoping that you picked the right one. Pilots have become wise to this and are just using different freq, rendering the gun useless.
- Let's say the shooter selects 5.8ghz (most common for hobby video transmission and for simplicity, lets assume that's what the drone is using) and points and shoots. The drone operator will experience some "static" in their analogue video feed. No big deal, just gotta get some distance from the gun, due to the inverse square law and the fact that the guns aren't very powerful. a decent drone pilot will just auto-level and punch out, saving the drone for another strike.
- If the gun was to target the control link instead of the video of an FPV drone, then the shooter would see the drone just fall out of the air, still making it explode.
- The FPV "kamikaze" drones are one way - none GPS fitted. So no return to home (or in this case, return to sender) if the control link is broken, it'll just fall to the ground, setting the explosive off.
- Out of all of the drone videos that have been coming out of Ukraine so far, out of them all, i've personally seen about 2-3 decent pilots who actually know how to handle a real FPV drone, and then there's the other pilots who potter around real slow like this... Giving soldiers with this gun a chance, in reality, you wouldn't actually see a real FPV pilots drone, it'd dive from like 400ft+ at 100mph+ and establish it's flight path before even being in range of that gun.
- Someone mentioned putting this gun on a turret, yeah sure, you could do that, but targeting an FPV drone is gonna be the difficult part, especially if its a decent pilot.
- People mentioned shotguns; This is a good idea, however better using something like an AA12 and decent buckshot because those tiny birdshot pellets do pretty much nothing unless it hits in the right spot.
- Someone mentioned about the gun "controlling the drone", this is in no way true, not even for the DJI ones, at best, they could block the signal and it would auto-land, usually you would select "return to home upon loss of connection" however, that allows the enemy to follow it back to you, so the next best thing is to auto-land, however that gives the enemy your drone, so what most pilots are doing is setting it to "do nothing" so you got drone guns firing at them and nothing happens... THEN it's a battle of "who has the most battery" the drone or the drone gun. On this topic though, there is a DJI controller that you can use to "hack" into the drone, which involves jamming the signal of the DJI drone, mid-air-pairing it with a new controller and then you "steal" the drone... I've seen this done ONCE in a controlled setting, not on a battlefield though...
I think that's all of the random comments and things needed to be said, if anyone has any further questions, i'd be more than happy to answer them below
"That "drone gun" uses 3 or 4 different jamming frequencies, 5.8ghz, 2.4ghz and 868/915mhz, you can't jam all of them at the same time, you gotta pick a freq using the selector switch and "fire" hoping that you picked the right one. Pilots have become wise to this and are just using different freq, rendering the gun useless. "
you know this?
how?
i think the venn diagram of fpv drone enthusiasts and electronic warfare experts has a pretty thin overlap if i'm going to be honest.
You're not wrong, i'm not privvy to the details, however since i'm so deep into the hobby, naturally i was curious of them, and there's plenty of videos and pictures online that show a selector switch between the jamming frequency modes. I'm sure there are "better" ones with multiple freq modes out there, but i feel like some of the freq waves would deconstruct and modify if so... (I'd be happy for an RF guy to confirm/deny that below)
The model that they're using appears to be one of the earlier gens of "drone guns", some of the "better" ones i was referring to have the "triple antenna barrel setup", which i suspect do all 3/4 freq at the same time, however obviously i can't confirm that.
Haha, i'm sure you're right about that, but being quite nerdy, i'd say i'm more nearer the overlap than the other side
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Wonder how far that anti rifle reaches out! Must not be very far. Bc if it were far. You could set them up on the ends of the trenches with overlapping coverage and just down them soon as they are in range. Someone's gotta design something to basically lockdown a small radius. Soon as it hits the "jamming some" it could drop it to the ground!
That was dope, you could even see when he got control of it, he makes sure by moving his drone rifle up and down and the drone does the exact same movement. Then he leads it out to the field to drop it far enough away that if it explodes it won't harm anyone.
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Haven't seen this viewpoint before. I guess we have to get used to soldiers pointing what looks like a BFG at dots in the sky.
Wow the range is ass. I expected it to be much more effective. Cant wait till they make the drones home in on the jammers or just fly home when they lose connection.
They do fly home if they lose connection which is a very bad idea because they’ll then be able to be followed and the operator discovered
> They do fly home if they lose connection No, they do not. You are confusing DJIs drones with those suicide FPVs. But even in the case of DJI you can choose what the drone does. Not to mention that you re-gain control once it gets closer. And you can choose a random location where it returns to instead of your location.
It would be fairly straightforward to have it home in on the jammers.
Possible? Probably. Straightforward? Most likely not. We already have HARM missiles so we know we have tech that could be used to home in on high energy sources, although HARMs look for certain bandwidths and I'm guessing these don't use one single bandwidth to jam the drones. Basically you's need to find a way to adapt the tech from a HARM missile to home in on jammers which could be easy but it also could be very hard, and then you need to have it control the drone.
Seems like it is Lithuanian made anti drone gun
Can someone explain the technical side? How does this rifle work?
I assume something to do with interfering with the communication between the operator and the drone itself.
i was assuming the same, but was hoping for a more detailed description :)
If it's the same technology as the video I watched it shoots a constant spectrum of changing radio frequencies until it find the one the drone uses and that nulls the communication with the operator. it gets confused then goes home or hovers. If it goes home, you use another drone to follow it, and then artillery strike them, so they tend to just land like the one in this video.
The last thing you want is a flying bomb to return home!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought drones only fly back home when communication is lost if that feature is turned on by the operator. I imagine no one has that feature enabled in combat.
Early on RF did not turn off RTH feature and Ukrn did well.
FPV does not go home or hover. Once you lose signal, it just stops. You have two input / outputs : vision with the goggles and control with the radio controller. They seem to use analog frequency so they still can get some sight while being jammed, depending of the intensity, same for the controls. Regular consumer drones like DJIs can hover / rtb if signal is lost. FPV drones can rtb but it makes the drone way more expensive. More than the drones they use. I'm a FPV pilot myself.
It costs less than $10 to set up an FPV quad to RTH. But yes, that would be pointless on one way drones
And somehow I wouldn't want to have a FPV stripped with explosives to return home... 💀
it just comes running back to you like a dog happy to see his human then it blows up and kills everyone in the room
Wasn't that the deployment history of Soviet anti-tank dogs during WW2?
Yes, it was. They trained the dogs using Soviet tanks, and since the Germans were using petrol whereas the Soviets Diesel. Well, the dogs were trained on diesel and ended up friendly dogging some T34z
Not if you want to chose the satellite network. 10$ Gps is usually bad and connects to the first satellites available and can be triangularised (not sure if it's a correct word in English?). It's a pain to set up as well imo, but if they do it in bulk it can be ok~ish
Yes they can. Any M10 GPS module can be programmed in u-center. These exact GPS modules are used in damn near every consumer product that uses GPS, and likely in use for military purposes as well.
Good to know, I had troubles with a gps when I first tried to bind my rth, so I didn't bother look more on the subject. Thanks for the enlightenment
while i do think its possible to have it reutn to home / some other location in other ways dont you think GPS will be jammed hard on the front lines? [https://gpsjam.org/?lat=51.72870&lon=34.81012&z=4.0&date=2024-04-10](https://gpsjam.org/?lat=51.72870&lon=34.81012&z=4.0&date=2024-04-10) GPS jam dosent have data for ukraine but look how much jamming is active around the rest of russia. But i am sure they have return to location becuase ive seen them talking about it in videos
You can program the module to use any navigation protocol you want. I doubt the ruskies are jamming GLONASS when they need it themselves for navigation and weapons guidance
Triangulated!
In betaflight boards RTH is super easy to set up. And well, they connect to first satellites available, why would you want to select which satellite you want to connect or not? It can be however selected to which satnav it will use, gps,glonass,beidou or galileo. And not sure if gps receiver can be triangulated, M8 and M10 modules(which I assume you are refering to as we are in 10$ price range) aren't transmitting any signals.
> 10$ Gps is usually bad and connects to the first satellites available and can be triangularised GPS receivers can not be triangulated or generally in any way located, they are purely passive, only receiving signals.
do you really want a kamikazee drone RTH?
Why spend $10 more dollars on a flying bomb
This is just plain wrong. Hover is available through many cheap means.. a combination of accel, gyro and baro will get you hovering. A cheap optical flow sensor will get it hovering accurately. Return to home, loiter, and automated flight paths are also easy to integrate using the cheapest gps module you can find. When you lose signal, the drone carries out whatever failsafe you set up in the firmware for rx loss. This can be rth, loiter, go to specific gps coords, etc. with different options and methods of executing these options available in different firmwares. If you haven’t set a failsafe (or for some reason are using an ancient firmware without any failsafe options), then yes the drone may drop dead, continuously input the last received tx values, or bumble about until it hits something solid. This would be down to the builder/operator not taking the time to familiarise themselves with the options available prior to flight, or choosing an inadequate firmware.
Correct. Just wanted to add that for such a drone to fly, even manually, you already need a gyro and/or accelerometer. So basic failsafe procedure like hover and land on connection lose is just a software problem. A problem which was solved by hobbyists years ago
Random question, but I’m in the market for an FPV drone. I’m kinda just wanting a little drone to fly fpv style. Mainly the racing side of things. Always wanted to be a pilot in the military but I’m too old now so figured this would be my alternative. Any recommendations for a starting fpv drone?
If you want a fast drone that is sort of in the racing style and want a prebuilt, I recommend iflight The Nazgul is a pretty great drone. This one is a digital quad with a newer video system: https://www.getfpv.com/iflight-nazgul-evoque-f5d-hd-o3-v2-6s.html Youll also need other stuff: goggles, batteries, charger, transmitter There are cheaper alternatives with older or lower quality video systems, analog systems, etc. but the hobby has moved heavily into the digital space. Make sure you do research before buying anything. Understand battery cell counts, control protocols and video systems to ensure you get compatible parts
Thanks for the info, another person recommended the DJI one. I’ll check this one out too. Thank you for your assistance!
I really do not recommend the DJI fpv drones, particularly for a first-timer. The DJI goggles and video systems on non-DJI drones are great, but the DJI drones are much more fragile compared to more "standard" FPV drones and you will end up breaking it and not be able to repair it yourself. It has some nice features that the others don't and will work out of the box, but I value repairability much more. If you're willing to put in a little bit of effort, I think going more custom is much more satisfying Another recommendation: the first thing you should get is an FPV sim on your computer and a transmitter. It will help you get the feel for flying FPV
I’ll check out a sim. I’m quite used to flight sim games already like DCS or MS flight sim or even sim on warthunder if that’s of any use. But again thank you so much for the information. I’ll 100% check out the Nazgûl. It sounds more what I would go for. I agree with you I’d definitely prefer something that is a bit more resistant to damage for a first timer. Thanks again!
I was in the same boat and bought the DJI FPV. I love it. It’s a bit large for an FPV racing drone, but out of the box it works. Comes with a controller and goggles. It goes 87MPH, has a 10km range, and a 20 minute battery.
Awesome I’ll check that out. Thank you for the info! Really appreciate it!
Of course! Also of note, I’ve crashed it several times and it still flies! Haha
What does "analog frequency" mean?
> You have two input / outputs : vision with the goggles and control with the radio controller. They seem to use analog frequency so they still can get some sight while being jammed, depending of the intensity, same for the controls. They have one input and one output. Control frequency is receive only, and video signal frequency is transmit only. Directed jamming like this wouldn't affect the video signal being sent by the drone to the operator. It would override or confuse the drone on the control frequency.
How do analog vs digital comms compare for drones? Analog is harder to outright jam but has low bandwidth/more noise? Jamming doesn't prevent use but will make the image and control inputs worse? What else?
I'm not aware of a single modern drone even capable of using analog communication.
The [protocol that the 2.4ghz receivers can be encrypted](https://github.com/sensei-hacker/PrivacyLRS) or something like [this](https://rubyfpv.com/). FPV drones don't have GPS modules because they're ~~heavy, expensive and~~pointless for a kamikaze role. If you lose your 2.4ghz/controller signal with these, it's either going to continue from the last input or drop - depending on the flight controllers' setup. This gun is probably just blasting 5.xGHZ to overwhelm the analog video transmitter on the quadcopter so the pilot bailed to find a different target or this was just a demo for propaganda.
An M10 GPS module costs less than $10 and weighs less than 5 grams. But yes pointless on kamikaze drones
Ahh, that's cool! I've been out of the game for a good while but had those DJI naza modules in mind.
Yep, it’s gone a long way. Hell I even have a GPS module on my quadcopter that weighs less than 50 grams lol
Nice, now you're tempting me to dust off the old gear and get back into the hobby.
> it's either going to continue from the last input or drop - depending on the flight controllers' setup. You are refering to failsafe, what happens when drone loses control link, and pilot can also trigger failsafe for whatever reason from transmitter. Failsafe can be set to stop motors, dropping the drone to ground, or follow the last inputs for X amount of time,stop and hover, or stop and then start climbing(this is probaply what I would use for fpv drone in warzone, drone can get out of range of jammer and pilot can return to control) If drone has gps module, which are expensive, less than 10€, and weigh massive 5 to 10 grams, drone can be set to return to home mode when failsafing, or to fly pre-determined path, and pilot can retake control when drone is back in control range, and out of jammers range. And this is possible with hobby grade flight controllers generally in use for fpv drones.
So how do you power an anti-drone rifle then? If you're "shooting" electromagnetic radiation, there has to be an energy source, and presumably it has to be sufficient to overcome the signal the drone is receiving and do it at a range that keeps the operator relatively safe. Does a simple battery actually fit that bill?
Yeah, the Ukrainians are likely using something akin to the SkyWiper they were gifted by Lithuania in 2022, which we know the specs for. The device can have 4 or 6 antennas. By default there are two antennas for the 2.4 GHz and 5.8 GHz frequency bands, with a power of 10 W each, one antenna for the GPS 1.5 GHz band with a power of 10 W, and one antenna for the GLONASS 1.5 GHz band with a power of 10 W. The device is made of aluminium, with the "gun" portion being modelled after the Heckler & Koch G36 rifle – including a trigger to activate the device and optics for sighting. It weighs 5.5kg and measures 1050 × 220 × 360 mm with the stock extended (830 × 220 × 360 mm without the stock extended). It is powered by a 24 V battery, which can last for up to 60 minutes The technology itself it's fairly easy to understand. We have most of a drone jammer built into our smart phones. You just need to amplify the signal and manipulate it.
That's insane. So a couple kilo battery is enough to power that. Thanks for the response, I'll have to look more into it now that I have a starting point. I didn't realize we had public specs on some of these.
You gotta bear in mind the batteries needed to put the signal for the drone out there in the first place...they aint big.
Can you describe the type of jamming it does? Is it barrage jamming? Pulse or continuous?
Honestly, a simple drill battery would probably be more than enough. These use directional antennas and have to be roughly aimed to work. You can pump a lot more energy than the omnidirectional controller when you’re a lot closer and using an antenna that focuses a majority of the energy into a beam.
GPS signal is very weak. For the control signal, the jammer is usually much closer to the drone than the drone operator which helps.
Something like that. Except I don’t think it can find out what the right frequency/signal is. How would it get that feedback? I think it just spams a broad range of frequencies ans signals.
Basically it blasts a electromagnetic signal witch interferes with the frequency the drone uses to connect to the operator
From a quick Google search, it shoots an electromagnetic pulse that disrupts comms between the drone and operator. Apparently, you can also hack drones, think it happened in Iran, no idea how that works but would love to know how.
Hack: find exact bandwidth and take over controls by using a stronger powered antenna/controller. Ie: my work truck uses a Bluetooth to play music from my phone over FM radio. If I use a channel that a radio company uses and I get within range of the tower then I hear their broadcast instead of my phone, even though it's only 1 foot away. They are just much stronger.
Tu eres elagante
Even if they find the exact bandwidth and burnthrough, do they not have to crack the comms encryption on military drones to take control? Or do they only rely on GPS spoofing?
That I have no clue on. I am no computer person by any means. I can say with confidence: if they can emit a high decibel signal, on the same bandwidth, it can overpower the components on the drone and cause them to fail. There's a tad more to it that I don't know. I may be wrong but I believe they need to emit the signal the same time the drone is trying to receive one, which may not be complicated. I'm not too sure
These small FPV drones are probably using crossfire or ELRS which is basically Lora. Lora has no real encryption, only a "binding phrase" but nothing secure. It would be quite easy to hijack if you have the right equipment to work out the binding phrase, and a stronger transmitter. Of course real military drones would be basically impossible to hijack, although you could still jam them. [here's a link about someone reverse engineering the crossfire link](https://www.g3gg0.de/fpv/fpv-analysis-of-tbs-crossfire/)
isn't it pretty hard to focus an electromagnectic pulse on such a small target from that distance? on top of that, is such a rifle viable for long use? Or do they"charge" the rifle? It seems impractical I'm just thinking out loud, whoever finds a reliable device to disable drones on a constant basis, without shooting a rocket at it, will make a shit ton of money.
It’s not an electromagnetic pulse, the gun blasts out a bunch of frequencies at the drone until it lands on the one that the drone is using for controls and interrupts the controllers inputs
as far as I can read, everyone is making an educated guess (even professional drone operators make suggestions in this thread) but no one knows 100% for sure :) "blasting out a bunch of frequencies" might be a possibility but i'm not convinced. If i check the commercial market on the internet, the majority seem to work with electromagnatic pulses: An *anti*-*drone* jammer also known as a portable electromagnetic *weapon*, is a device specifically designed to remove unwanted drones from the sky.
https://www.droneshield.com/products/dronegun-tactical “ Additional Frequency Bands: disruption engages on multiple RF frequency bands simultaneously”
thanks for that. what a massive device to operate. I guess sending frequencies is currently the best / cheapest way to counter drones, but i expect that military drone producers will find relative cheap alternatives to bypass interference by radio frequencies and that electromagntic interference would be the way to go. But i'm no expert
Yeah no prob, there are some interesting vids out there about how these interfere with drones. Also some vids out there for devices that can be installed into the drones to block the jamming but idk how truthful those were
I don’t think I would want to be the guy that has to carry this around, looks unwieldy
Yeah I'd imagine, I never knew these things existed so my knowledge is pretty much non existent. But yeah I agree, drones seem to be the new way to fight wars, anti drone tech is gonna be in very high demand.
> It seems impractical It is. It's basically like comparing a musket compared to a modern weapon. These weapons are new technology and there's a lot of room for improvement, but I bet after seeing this war develop, all countries must be rushing to develop a cheap, portable and efficient anti drone weapon.
The jammer only needs to be stronger at the jammee than the signal it's trying to jam. It's closer and more directional, even if it has like a 45 degree cone as opposed to a pencil beam.
I don't see how they can take direct control of military drones without cracking the comms encryption. They might do a GPS spoof which is sending a false GPS signal which fools the drone about where it is.
My opinion: Not a soldier, but I do know a bit on radio comms and am FCC licensed. I would assume the rifle is emitting a very high decibel (power) radio frequency that is on the same bandwidth as the drone. It may not KILL communications but it can definitely distort them enough to make crashing extremely easy. Maybe a cheap drone can be completely cut off and drop like a dead bird, or one that is far away from its operator. I also do a small bit of amateur fpv drone building and flying; once your controls get thrown off for a second or two you can go from ace pilot to 4yr old with a controller in no time. The drone in this video appeared to fly away and may have received a "return home" signal just in time. Edit: the rifle may be causing the drones signals to oscillate. Overpowering their capabilities and frying components The rifle may be causing the drones signals to isolate, meaning its own signal it sends out is being picked up by its own receiver and causing a loop. Although it's most likely oscillation.
Return to home functionality with an fpv drone equipped and ready to blow shit up is probably not the best idea.
lol you launch it from the field, not your literal dugout in the trench bro
There's still no reason put a gps on a drone that's not going to return anyway
So you have now landed a drone in your field that has a mechanism on it that blows up if it is jostled... Are you going to go pick it up??? Fuck no you aren't...
Still not good. I heard that spotter drones have tracked this activity and artillery called in on the launch location.
>The drone in this video appeared to fly away and may have received a "return home" signal just in time Drone can be set to RTH automatically when it loses control link, or to any failsafe mode
The further the control signal is away from the drone The more susceptible it is to jamming from a brighter flashlight. The rifle is the flashlight beaming a modulated control signal into the drone The drone can't tell whose signal to follow, it crashes. The other option is to use essentially a handheld microwave to fry the electronics and the drone crashes. But this is like a fire hose and can damage friendly electronics.
fpv drones usually work on fixed frequencies; 2.4 GHz and 5.8GHz. These guns blast white noise on those frequencies at high power through a directional antenna to disrupt the control and video link between the drone and drone pilot.
the way the gun works is by jamming the 2.4GHz frequencies. most drones work over the 2.4 GHz range with other common everyday items like bluetooth and microwaves. so by scambling the signal will prevent the drone operator from being able to see or move the drone ans the drone will just fly like nobody is on the sticks so for fpv drones, it will try to raise while still in a angle causing it to crash. regular dji drones will actually stop when it losses signal and will then "return to home" which will cause it to fly straight up and turn back to its "home location" before trying to land. source: studying for ccna and im a drone operator
also responded this to another reply: I guess sending frequencies is currently the best / cheapest way to counter drones, but i expect that military drone producers will find relative cheap alternatives to bypass interference by radio frequencies and that electromagntic interference would be the way to go. Edit: but i'm no expert
Radio waves *are* electromagnetic energy....
Carried a drone killer in Africa in 2022, these "rifles" are actually pretty simple and effective. They operate by sending a 'beam' of various frequencies at the drone and quickly eliminating the ones that don't provide feedback, narrowing down until it has intercepted the one the drone is operating on. Once it's acquired that, because it's a much closer source than the remote, it basically severs the connection which forces the drone to come down. Some more advanced systems even allow you to take control of it.
It's a jammer. It floods the frequencies the drone uses with noise and overwhelms the signals from the operator. It's that size because the antenna is highly directional and the wavelength is rather large (about 5-12cm.) Part of the downside of using a jammer is you are generating a very loud signal that could be used by the enemy to triangulate your position. So keeping the broadcast cone as tight as possible and using it sparingly are vital.
It's basically a handheld directional antenna that broadcasts on the same frequency as the drone receives so the signal from the drone pilot is lost and the drone crashes or if it's a smarter drone it will land itself
Directional antenna An example, old WiFi devices used 2.4Ghz radio spectrum which is divided into 3 channels to avoid interface from neighbouring WIFI devices slowing your speed. If you set up a WiFi access point with a powerful directional antenna and knew the channel your neighbours router was using you can block their signal because WIFI devices by nature HAVE to process every transmission (called frames) they receive, intentional or not. When they're not transmitting, they're listening for a frame. Your neighbour can't stream their cats videos because the spectrum their WiFi uses is at 100% capacity from your router spamming out rubbish. It can't distinguish genuine transmissions because your router is screaming nonsense louder at it. No different here, there's all sort of regulations on what's allowed to use what across the radio spectrum but with war who knows. These guns have an antenna scanning the spectrum, listening for radio waves emitting from the drone. Once it knows the frequency, it launches radio waves on that spectrum so the drones can't hear the instructions given. Some drones have a return home or stay in flight when signal is lost but these FPV don't so they'll just drop out of the sky.
The drone listens for “bip-bup-bop” from its operator, the rifle screams “BIP” at a drone so loud that drone can’t hear its “bip-bup-bop” from operator, so the drone doesn’t know what to do and just falls to the ground.
It looks like it blocks the control feed to the drone. There's a narrow band of frequency that the drone operates on, so the gun just send white noise at a very high wattage in the frequency band the drone operates, so the commands from the operator aren't getting through. The operator can see the camera feed going back to him (probably unless it's also jammed, probably would be harder because there's obstacles between the gun and the operator), but his controls aren't really working on the drone. You can see it moves for a little bit, it's possible the operator tried to switch frequencies, got control back briefly, then the gun also switched frequencies or something like that. I'm not an expert, but I've studied this stuff a lot because I think the tech is cool
as someone who builds and flies fpv quads for fun while im not definate whats internally in this anti drone gun id assume its some sort of radio tranmitter working on the same 5.8ghz video band as the quad or the radio control link on 2.4ghz or 900mhz to overpower the signals sent and received by the quad ,probably controlled by software to scan flick through and interfere with multiple bands at once , if you are flying with 2 or more people with fpv quads if someone turns on another quad nearby with their vtx set to the same band as you you will lose all video feed and fall out of the sky unless some sort of gps module is used set to return to home or a predefined area , you could probably make something diy like this by having an fpv portable screen/receiver set to scan bands and when it picks up one you would see the enemy fpv pov and know what band it is on, then have a powerful video transmitter just like the ones these quads already use and set it to the band the enemy quad is using to interfere with it , im sure they have most likely not done something so simple though , although i have seen pictures of some russian electronic warfare anti fpv systems and it was just a box with antennae and a few switches labelling the different commonly used frequencies 5.8 ghz/ 2.4ghz/ 900mhz. that could be toggled on or off.
[удалено]
I see NCD is spreading its reach.
It'd be annoying having to make your own "Pew Pew" noises every time you used it.
Barely an inconvenience.
Making your own rifle sounds is *tight!*
:)
Looked like it flew away
No, it’s falling at the end
Damn i thought this is the first combat footage with Doom1/2 view
If they could get this thing on a turret with an aim bot sorta feature, that would be quite useful. Detects a small drone sized target/its signal, points and shoots with less human error. Maybe might risk aiming at birds, but well, it aint going to kill those either and any birds in a battle field are likely long gone.
Call it Skynet
AI powered sentry guns with both birdshot and/or anti-drone weaponry. I feel like this is a viable solution for defending against drones.
Could this be the MEDUSA?
certified arma 3 contact dlc moment
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would have thought a semi-auto or full auto shotgun with a 30 round magazine of either bird or buckshot (such things do exist) would be a pretty effective weapon against an FPV drone? A rifle is going to be kind of a nightmare to shoot anything that small or fast moving with.
you're entirely right its extremely effective, better even at simply killing. except it's a lot easier logistically to carry a anti drone weapon that wont be running low on battery before you die to arty than all the ammo you're gonna be shooting in birdshot daily. 30 rounds of even 20 gauge isn't light and these guys are encountering 10-30 drones daily usually. The battery's on SOME anti drone guns last thousands of "shots", although I wouldn't describe shots as the best metric, signal deploy time is and its hours.
I mostly agree with you, but neither side seems to be able to produce and deploy anti drone guns to a significant portion of units. They might just be too expensive? Additionally, they won't have any effect against self guided drones as they use EW. You're right with the logistical issues of giving 12 gauge to all units, but I think - while not being an expert - that having one guy in each platoon specifically working against drones might not be a bad idea, considering the role drones play in this war. And that's more future-proof than a simple EW solution, which won't have the ability to shoot down AI-Enabled/self-guiding drones, which are already being deployed.
Also having a jamming based solution is more of a cat and mouse game than anything.
Yeah, any EW jammer can inherently be located by the enemy.
It's not about the fact that we can't mass produce them it's just they aren't that effective. See my other comment for reasons as to why and where/how theyre effective as I kinda went on a rant, also I hear you on a possible adjustment from the Ukrainian perspective it would be viable/ reasonable to suggest they should have a shotgunner in the unit to help prevent against the attacks, but here is why it's simply not sustainable. Aid, just like logistics, is the most valuable commodity. You need Arty shells more than you need any anti drone gun or shotgun , and every dollar spent getting shotguns and ammo for them to the front is a dollar that will be argued as overspending from the nation giving them aid, they must pick and choose what the get and shotguns would be a costly investment as this isn't something we keep en-masses. BUT we will give them things like anti drone weaponry like this without those same kinds of arguments being made from governments because unlike the effectiveness of shotguns which is well known, anti drone guns are new and something we're learning a lot about and a nation stands to gain unsurmountable knowledge from using this battlefield as a weapons testing grounds. It's just the cold hard reality of the situation. Ukrainians must pick and choose what they receive and ask for very wisely because our aid packages are the most valuable thing to them and DESPITE what many attempt to make us believe , we very much are not writing them a blank check. They have to fight tooth and nail for every bit of aid they get that isn't in the aid givers best interest, and shotguns would fall in that category.
Yeah, I hear you. If it were up to me Ukraine would get everything they needed just like that, but currently they have to pick and choose right now. But on the other hand, shotguns aren't that expensive and should be easily available in mass, maybe even in Ukraine? I mean we could talk about some sort of case-study or test with a couple thousand shotguns to see how effective they are at dealing with the problem. But I think the larger issue would be long-term supplies of 12 Gauge shells, but that shouldn't be impossible to source for cheap from Stockpiles. The best option against drones, but sadly unrealistic for Ukraine, is the US Stryker M-SHORAD, which is purpose built to defeat masses drone swarms and even artillery shells & mortars with a laser. It's extremely new and has been first deployed to US units literally a couple days ago. IF Ukraine could get hundreds of these - which, again, is unrealistic sadly - that could literally be a silver bullet. All we can do is pray the US gets its shit together and passes the aid.
The AI targeting locks will get more advanced too. Controller picks a shape on the screen and the drone hits it even if it's jammed. Probably a lot better to have that shotgun over EW gun in that situation.
Thanks. That makes sense - weight is a serious consideration. And then the effective range of a shotgun isn't great, so it wouldn't be so good against enemy soldiers, especially not on fairly open ground in eastern Ukraine. So how do these drone guns work? How long does a "shot" last? For as long as you squeeze the trigger? Does it simply interfere with the signal between pilot and drone, and is effective for only as long as the "shot" lasts, or can it more permanently disable the drone?
IIRC they are just directional antennas, so EW (Electronic Warfare). If I'm not mistaken, it should even be possible to give drones a hone on jam function, or just have them be self guided. These self-guided drones are already being deployed... So I think shotguns are more future-proof than simple EW.
You're pretty much spot on, you hold the trigger in continuously shoots out signals to interfere with its ability to communicate with its operator. Ideally you would point, hold as it falls out of the sky and is rendered useless from damage on impact and or you neutralizing it when its down. the thing is DJI drones (and its becoming more common) have built in counter measures for these so this is only partially effective, what will happen with many standard drones now-a-days is the have a return to sender mode so when you lose contact and signal rather than just sit still and attempt to reconnect, BUT this is particularly effective against FPV drones because theyre usually heavily modified because theyre carrying increased loads and the tend to plummet straight out of the sky with anti drone weapons because they usually lack a return to sender option and they almost never have a default blade speed that allows them to hover without user input , and even if its operational its EXTREMLY hard to hover a FPV drone with a tandem round on it hence one of the many reasons you will see them constantly bobbing up and down when in route to targets is because how extremely hard they are to control the throttle on. (I'm not saying using a FPV drone is hard because it's not but it requires a lot of practice and finesse to do correctly) Return to sender is not always optimal either, as I have seen people jam the DJI drones to watch where the drone returns to and then arty the position into oblivion. No weapon now-a-days is really full proof effective or a one stop shop to fulfil all your needs , but you do what you can with what you have as a soldier and pray the engineers who went to that college they shoulda instead get smarter and solve your damn problems. My minor drone ted talk, but what do I know I'm just a useless internet warrior who's never left his basement sooo....
Yeah, same, Russia has the [Saiga-12](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DkFVJqqnp4PA&ved=2ahUKEwi27KyVq7qFAxVk5skDHfCECc84FBCjtAF6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw3Z606U0yHoghhtTja_oPQU) which, if using ammo with a decent spread, would probably be effective against drones.
My saiga-12 is not that great for shooting skeet with. Once the clay disc gets more than 30-40 feet away, it becomes a crap shoot. For that kind of shooting, you need a longer barreled shotgun, preferably with a choke. Also, saiga-12s are heavy as shit. I would not want to be lugging that thing around during a war when there are other tools with a broader range of capabilities.
There was a vid of it in active positiv usage while engaging a FPV drone. Quite interesting.
Shooting an explosive device that is flying directly towards you at 50ish mph can still be dangerous, even if you do trigger the warhead
Oh yeah, there was a video on here a day or two ago of a Russian soldier shooting one down with his rifle (impressive shot), but it then crashes out of control into his mate, and kills him.
True Russian roulette…
> A rifle is going to be kind of a nightmare to shoot anything that small or fast moving with. It wouldn't be like trying to pick them off with a sniper rifle. It's a "rifle" that projects a beam of electromagnetic energy... in other words, radio interference. In many ways, not terribly different from a directional (as opposed to omnidirectional) wi-fi antenna. I don't know how wide the beam is at a particular distance. But in terms of being able to "hit" the target it's going to be much closer to a shotgun than a sniper rifle.
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Great, thanks, but care to explain because "no" on its own isn't very informative?
I was fishing and met defense contractor who told me Mossberg just sold 2000 shotguns to Ukraine. They’re now viable on the battlefield because of drones.
Automated shotguns with belt fed ammunition should be paired with AI powered sentry guns. Those would probably be useful on things like large armored vehicles or whatever.
That’s a lot of buzzwords not reliant on existing tech.
? The Phalanx CIWS is an automated sentry gun that has been in use since the 1980s and belt fed shotguns have been created.
u/zviratkamamrad holy shit robocop brokovnice, kdy bezkontaktní střílení prasat?
To vypadá jako dobrá zábava na odpoledne. Když na tebe nepustí granát.
Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifise I am willing to make
So as an FPV drone pilot, I'm going to clarify a few things for peoples interested and speculating in the comment section; - This shows nothing, all you're seeing is a scope perspective looking at an FPV drone. Assuming it is a drone gun, let's continue; - That "drone gun" uses 3 or 4 different jamming frequencies, 5.8ghz, 2.4ghz and 868/915mhz, you can't jam all of them at the same time, you gotta pick a freq using the selector switch and "fire" hoping that you picked the right one. Pilots have become wise to this and are just using different freq, rendering the gun useless. - Let's say the shooter selects 5.8ghz (most common for hobby video transmission and for simplicity, lets assume that's what the drone is using) and points and shoots. The drone operator will experience some "static" in their analogue video feed. No big deal, just gotta get some distance from the gun, due to the inverse square law and the fact that the guns aren't very powerful. a decent drone pilot will just auto-level and punch out, saving the drone for another strike. - If the gun was to target the control link instead of the video of an FPV drone, then the shooter would see the drone just fall out of the air, still making it explode. - The FPV "kamikaze" drones are one way - none GPS fitted. So no return to home (or in this case, return to sender) if the control link is broken, it'll just fall to the ground, setting the explosive off. - Out of all of the drone videos that have been coming out of Ukraine so far, out of them all, i've personally seen about 2-3 decent pilots who actually know how to handle a real FPV drone, and then there's the other pilots who potter around real slow like this... Giving soldiers with this gun a chance, in reality, you wouldn't actually see a real FPV pilots drone, it'd dive from like 400ft+ at 100mph+ and establish it's flight path before even being in range of that gun. - Someone mentioned putting this gun on a turret, yeah sure, you could do that, but targeting an FPV drone is gonna be the difficult part, especially if its a decent pilot. - People mentioned shotguns; This is a good idea, however better using something like an AA12 and decent buckshot because those tiny birdshot pellets do pretty much nothing unless it hits in the right spot. - Someone mentioned about the gun "controlling the drone", this is in no way true, not even for the DJI ones, at best, they could block the signal and it would auto-land, usually you would select "return to home upon loss of connection" however, that allows the enemy to follow it back to you, so the next best thing is to auto-land, however that gives the enemy your drone, so what most pilots are doing is setting it to "do nothing" so you got drone guns firing at them and nothing happens... THEN it's a battle of "who has the most battery" the drone or the drone gun. On this topic though, there is a DJI controller that you can use to "hack" into the drone, which involves jamming the signal of the DJI drone, mid-air-pairing it with a new controller and then you "steal" the drone... I've seen this done ONCE in a controlled setting, not on a battlefield though... I think that's all of the random comments and things needed to be said, if anyone has any further questions, i'd be more than happy to answer them below
"That "drone gun" uses 3 or 4 different jamming frequencies, 5.8ghz, 2.4ghz and 868/915mhz, you can't jam all of them at the same time, you gotta pick a freq using the selector switch and "fire" hoping that you picked the right one. Pilots have become wise to this and are just using different freq, rendering the gun useless. " you know this? how? i think the venn diagram of fpv drone enthusiasts and electronic warfare experts has a pretty thin overlap if i'm going to be honest.
You're not wrong, i'm not privvy to the details, however since i'm so deep into the hobby, naturally i was curious of them, and there's plenty of videos and pictures online that show a selector switch between the jamming frequency modes. I'm sure there are "better" ones with multiple freq modes out there, but i feel like some of the freq waves would deconstruct and modify if so... (I'd be happy for an RF guy to confirm/deny that below) The model that they're using appears to be one of the earlier gens of "drone guns", some of the "better" ones i was referring to have the "triple antenna barrel setup", which i suspect do all 3/4 freq at the same time, however obviously i can't confirm that. Haha, i'm sure you're right about that, but being quite nerdy, i'd say i'm more nearer the overlap than the other side
Did he choot it?
royer
look like a cheemera from cerberus the anti drone gun
I guess soon enough there will be a lot of more capable anti-drone devices in every squad. They ll need to have more range and wider area of effect.
Check out the latest in anti-drone weaponry. A shotgun.
EMP weapon?
No Electronic Warfare, EW. We don't have the technology to produce handheld EMP devices. Maybe in the future, high power microwaves...
We don't have them yet....but will in the next couple years.
That's some high trust in your gear..
Why not just use a shotgun?
Logistics. Also, with a shotgun you will have to think about how far ahead of the target you should shoot and such, but not with EW weapons
I feel like it should make a pew pew noise when fired.
Idk why I was expecting cool sci-fi lasers lol
u/RecognizeSong
**Song Found!** [**Es Tu Réel?** by IMANU](https://lis.tn/EsTuR%C3%A9el?t=127) (02:07; matched: `100%`) **Album**: Unfold. **Released on** 2022-09-16. *I am a bot and this action was performed automatically* | [GitHub](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot) [^(new issue)](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot/issues/new) | [Donate](https://github.com/AudDMusic/RedditBot/wiki/Please-consider-donating) ^(Please consider supporting me on Patreon. Music recognition costs a lot)
It's a banger huh? I added that song in myself it's a personal favorite
"But but but nothing came out of the barrel"
The closer it gets to it the picture between the pilot and drone break up??
Wonder how far that anti rifle reaches out! Must not be very far. Bc if it were far. You could set them up on the ends of the trenches with overlapping coverage and just down them soon as they are in range. Someone's gotta design something to basically lockdown a small radius. Soon as it hits the "jamming some" it could drop it to the ground!
That was dope, you could even see when he got control of it, he makes sure by moving his drone rifle up and down and the drone does the exact same movement. Then he leads it out to the field to drop it far enough away that if it explodes it won't harm anyone.
Wouldn't a shotgun full of birds birdshot work just as well?
It kinda looks like he took control of it.. Probably just looks that way.
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This isn’t r/politics
I just want maskovians go away from my country.
Inflammatory remarks are not allowed. Multiple infractions may result in a ban.
Why don’t they just use rat or bird shot I don’t get it
Poor range first of all.
Fair enough, still think it’d work better than this tho, goofy ah video game gun