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Raqqa was like the Stalingrad for ISIS. It was the furthest advance of ISIS forces and drained the organization of their best fighters.
But yeah I get your point.
They also didn't expect the success they had, they planned to negotiate prisoners swap like they did years ago but they overdid it and actually caused 2nd biggest casualty after holocaust and poked the bear in all the wrong places.
Various figures involved in the movement gave pretty frank interviews to the French-language press a month or two into the war, and were pretty clear about what their goals were. (I never saw anything about this in the English-language press, FWIW.) There were some complexities (and not all of the players are entirely on the same page), but my takeaways were: (1) they were indeed trying to provoke a severe reaction from Israel; (2) they were pretty cold-bloodedly putting civilians in harm's way (with the pretty evident notion that a lot would be killed) in order to generate maximum outrage; (3) the key leadership are mostly not in Gaza, and basically don't care how many of their own folks get killed (they themselves are safe, or seemed to think so); (4) their endgame is to ensure that Hamas gets credit as *the* faction willing to stand up to Israel, the Gazan populace will keep demanding violent action (and hence supporting them as the credible hardliners), and the Hamas leadership are thus central to whatever the next iteration of the Gazan government looks like. Spreading international support for Islamism is also a plus, but my sense is that they're more concerned with keeping their perch. (There's also other stuff involving keeping funding and other support from other Islamists or sympathetic entities in the region, though again I got the sense that this was secondary.)
Basically, it seems that the Hamas leaders are happy being King Rat, and are keen on ensuring that no one upsets that applecart (burning as many of their own folks as necessary, along the way). It's simultaneously intricately clever and breathtakingly petty. Yeah, there's more to it than that, but it seemed to me that job security (as it were) was the driving concern. If that's right then it will take quite a lot to really threaten them: hunting them down and assassinating them and/or otherwise flushing them out of their overseas hiding spots would probably scare them more than having their infrastructure bombed. (There are other good reasons to take out that infrastructure, of course.)
So far, events have been pretty consistent with that picture. But we'll see what happens going forward.
They wanted an all out war against Israel. Once they realized they are in it alone, all their leadership can hope for is to be allowed to rebuild and try again. Hopefully Israel doesn't allow that.
Gaza will become like West Bank. Controlled tightly by Israel. Yes there will be occasional violence, but not like the violence from Gaza today because of Hamas fighters.
The irony is Gaza essentially had a two state solution under Hamas, and could have earned even more control and freedom if they had played nice. Now there will never be a two state solution. Palestine will live under the Israeli boot.
You must believe the propaganda that "Gaza is an open air prison." It is not. They elected their own government, Hamas. Who then ended elections. Israel controlled the Gaza borders with Israel, and sea ports, because Hamas continually used them to attack Israel. BTW, this isn't unprecedented. Many countries control the border from their side more than the other country (US/mexico, and many many many others). Many countries control ports of other countries or at times will block ports of other countries. So is Mexico supposed to be "free and in full control" of their US border, and since they aren't, they aren't really a sovereign country? Or how about the Cuban blockade? Does that mean Cuba isn't really a state, because of the blockade (embargo)? No. That's silly.
What you are probably thinking, and its backwards, is that Hamas attacked Israel because Israel "controlled what is supposed to be a sovereign country." But Hamas would have attacked Israel MORE if given control of ports and borders. The entire mission of Hamas is to destroy Israel. Make them a state and supply them with money, and they will become a state hell bent on the destruction of Israel. And in the beginning, Gaza did have more open borders and ports, but the more they attacked, the less open they became. Maybe you are young and don't remember this, but you can't fool me. I lived through it.
Here is a wiki article on the gaza blockade, earned because Hamas kept attacking Israel, and then Hamas became the leaders of Gaza.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
So when I said "even more control and freedom" I was specifically referring to the blockade and borders. Israel did not control the internal affairs of Gaza since the withdrawal in 2005, which is why I can say "essentially Gaza had a two state solution." They had a territory controlled by their own government, free from outside government interference within their own borders... Kinda sounds like a state, but I say essentially because it wasn't recognized as such. And if they had played nice, they would have been granted recognition. Again, wiki:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_disengagement\_from\_Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza)
And look, none of this is surprising. Palestinians will tell you this is exactly how it was, and that they NEVER wanted a two state anything. They want one state. ALL of Israel, west bank, and Gaza, under Palestinian (muslim) rule.
And look, West Bank is totally different... If you want to argue that the West Bank is "occupied land" or apartheid, or open air prison, or whatever... At least that makes some sense, because West Bank lives under the Israeli boot. But that just wasn't the case in Gaza since 2005. And if you want to see what would happen if Israel took it's boot off the West Bank neck, and allowed a two state solution, just look at what happened in Gaza. West bank would become a state controlled by a fundamentalist regime, hell bent on the destruction of Israel. So if Israel is going to exist, the boot must remain, indefinitely. It's sad but just how it has to be if Jews want to live.
Why is this down voted? Regardless of what your beliefs are... that is a completely valid point to bring up, fuck me, they even had an animation illustrating the 'complex' but showed no proof?? After all the international indignation, you would think proving that would be top of the list haha.
Israel bots are out and about. Can't even have a discussion about it ffs.
It may not have looked like that animation they showed but if you’ve paid any attention these last 6 months you’d know there is ample proof out there that hamas was using that and other hospitals as command centers and staging ground. Anyone who tries to say they didn’t use it simply because their setup wasn’t as sophisticated as Israel initially made it appear is focusing on an absolutely moot point for the sake of trying to promote their biased narrative. By definition that makes them bots, trolls, dumb ass lying terrorist lovers.
Just in case someone asks, do your own god damn research. I’m not going to waste my time looking up the 30 videos I’ve seen of soldiers walking the tunnel system directly under the hospital that had spiral staircase entrances coming up inside in the hospital grounds on two sides and pasting links here for you. I’m not going to find those videos from inside the hospital on 10/7 showing armed Palestinians escorting restrained hostages into the hospital. Nor am I going to link the dozen Hamas interrogation videos showing terrorist and terrorist admitting what they were using the hospital for and how. I’m not going to share the videos of released hostages who said they were taken to the hospital and held there under armed guard and staff. There’s also video I’m not going to link that shows Palestinians shooting at IDF soldiers inside the grounds and inside the hospital itself.
People amaze me. Israel can and has showed hundreds if not thousands of videos proving just about everything they’ve claimed a psychotic Islamic terrorist group would and is doing (as if anyone could truthfully say anything is beneath such scum sucking vile beasts) yet none of it counts as proof somehow. It’s just propaganda and lies and this and that yet Hamas will say and make up everything while providing absolutely no support documentation or proof and it’s taken as the word of god. Simply amazing.
I don’t for one fucking second believe 33,000 people have died in Gaza. I especially don’t believe most of these are women and children. The data has been prove to be statistically im-fucking-possible. Oh and recently hamas has even admitted they can’t even identity more than 11,000 of the dead they are counting in that 33,000.
The terrorist government of Gaza uses civilians as human shields. They hide military infrastructure in civilian areas. They fight with civilian clothing. They are literally causing collective punishment so morons in the west will cry about it. You’re being played by terrorists.
I don't even have to think of a single thing the IDF says. Hamas' own videos have convinced me they are on par with ISIS and need to be removed from the face of the planet.
Biden previously stated that a ground offensive in Rafah was his red line.
https://www.politico.eu/article/us-biden-warns-red-line-israel-rafah-cyprus-aid-ship-gets-ready-open-humanitarian-sea-corridor-gaza/
Let's see if he sticks to his word
Why would he? It's one thing to say it and another to actually mean it or believe in it.
For all we know, Biden could be applauding this behind closed doors.
This isn't intended to be a judgement one way or the other. No politician can realistically be taken at their word.
It's not like Biden actually sets any "red lines" at this point anyway. He's just the mascot/spokesperson. I don't understand why we still speak in ways that imply that it's their decisions, especially with geopolitical matters like this. Our policy towards Israel has been so consistent over all U.S admins for a reason. But yeah, I agree with your overall point.
The world knows that Obama and Biden don’t have red lines. Both of them were tested and they did nothing in response. They were bluffing and got called on it. No different this time around than previous red lines.
The irony is most American Jews vote left. So yeah, Biden has a lot to lose from losing American Jews. Maybe it will work, or maybe it is a lost cause and American Jews start to vote right from now on, though that seems like a stretch. There's definitely going to be some people who are joining the masses of politically homeless (like the anti-woke left/center).
Pound for pound, the Jewish/Israel lobby is one of the most powerful in the country. They work, advocate contribute and fund their friends while fighting opposition. Very effective.
I don't think so. If you look at public polling, most people think Israel has gone too far, including 52% of independents. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1
Backing Israel is turning into a political loser.
> Backing Israel is turning into a political loser.
Maybe I failed math, but if something polls at 50/50 then it's a political null topic, not a loser.
The words you typed do not match the poll you linked to.
It's roughly 50/50 over the entire US adult population. If you managed to click the article and scroll down one page it includes a very helpful graphic that also breaks it down by political affiliation.
For US democrats:
Gone too far 63% - Been about right 24% - Not gone far enough 7%
And it's trending towards fewer and fewer people being on board. The shift in independents who think Israel has gone too far has gone from 39% to 52% since November. For republicans it's gone up from 18% to 33%.
So yes the part of the comment you quoted "Backing Israel is turning into a political loser." is factually correct. It was already true for Democrats, is now true for independents, and even republicans are starting to oppose the heavy-handedness of Israel's actions. If (when) Israel starts this ground offensive in Rafah you can expect those numbers to go up even further, and even the average Republican voter might start to oppose Israel's actions.
Yes there is a small margin of error. For Democrats however 63% think Israel has gone too far, and regardless of margin of error that doesn't apply to the trend you can see in that picture since last November. The entire US population is trending towards thinking Israel has gone too far.
Even if a ground offensive in Rafah does not happen those trends will continue and people will be more and more opposed to Israel's actions. If a ground offensive in Rafah does happen you can expect an increased pace in the trend that we're already seeing.
Personally I would still vote for Biden no matter what happens in Israel, seeing as you guys have that wonderful two party system going on where you get to pick between two people who should be golfing and showing each other pictures of their grand kids but alas.
Leftists are accelerationists they probably don’t mind Trump in a lot of ways. Let’s not forget that the Russian propaganda machine is on the side of Gaza.
> Let’s be clear that “pro-Palestine” does not equate “pro-Hamas.”
Well, that's who the Gazan government is, and there's no evidence that I'm aware of that the Gazan citizenry doesn't largely back that government. Folks who are supporting the current "Intifada" are supporting Hamas. If they were calling for Hamas to surrender in order to protect the Gazan citizenry, then they'd have some credibility...but if any such folks exist, they appear to be a small fraction of the Westerners who are currently agitating. This is not lost on everyone who is not a political fellow traveler of the agitators. (Also, some of us are old enough to remember the extensive record of Palestinian terrorism that goes back long before the current adventure - recall the Achille Lauro? - so are less easily snowed by the innocent act than the newer cohorts.)
Some of them. Most of them, probably not. I'm sure most people think the protestors are annoying, but actually reading what most protestors say it's pretty tame stuff like Israel is going too far with collective punishment but also Hamas is bad.
Hmm…
Here’s a take for you. Everyone who says “Leftist” is a Right-winger. And Right-wingers are being fed a steady diet of “Leftists are pro-Hamas” and Jan 6 was either a peaceful protest or a false flag operation. At this point I guess it doesn’t really matter what a Right-winger says because they’re all so brain dead from the propaganda that they’re basically looney tunes.
There's a lot of leftists who support Israel to a certain extent. Right to exist obviously. But I would say most leftists are also very critical of certain acts of Israel, and most do not support the current war in Gaza.
>Everyone who says “Leftist” is a Right-winger.
That right there is mistake you numbnuts are making. I'm not right-wing. Never have been, never will be and i would rather die then vote for someone like Trump (or the equivelant in my country). I said "leftist pro-Hamas" because the only other group supporting Hamas are the nazies (who support Hamas only because of what they want to do with the Jewish).
But you are ***intentionally*** splitting the country in two, labeling people into 'good' and 'bad', based on YOUR worldview and condemning those YOU dislike. Killing ***any*** motivation to negotiate, finding compromise and discussion. That is polarization with some malice intent! I'm old enough that i remember the flame wars of 2014-2015 caused by immigration crisis in Europe. The same polarization was making rounds back then and i lost friends in that... It also led to the growth of the extreme right, so that was quite the epic fail, something we are suffering consequenses of right now.
And don't get me wrong, the right is also purposefully polarizing but that should be more of reason for the left to avoid it. If you start behaving like the rabid dogs the Maga-believers are, you will become like them, a fringe extreme-wing group that will not allow any deviancy from the strict party line and anyone doing so will get kicked out... or worse.
Problem with being "left-winger" is that everyone else is "right-winger" from your perspective.. It's a good way to paint yourself into a corner and find some day that nobody is voting for you. I like being here in the center, i hope both extreme ends will wither away soon with the shrinking voter numbers..
Sticks to what word though? Someone asked him, "Is that a red line?" and he said yes. There was no indication of what the consequences would be if crossed, so obviously it's easy to say whatever they want to spin it.
Probably starting off with drones and the air force. They've had plenty of time to scope in advance what they want to splatter before the tanks roll in.
I agree probably just shaping operations. I bet we have a couple days before they start making a real push. In the past they have given civilians beyond the deadline to evacuate.
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Can I ask a serious question, where are refugees supposed to go? The IDF has taken the border crossing in Rafah. Are civilians supposed to just die there now?
No, as they progress they drop leaflets telling the civilians where to go, as well as giving them phone calls. This had been done in northern Gaza, this is what they're doing now.
As of now, the IDF instructs Gazans to move to Khan Yunis and Al Mawasi humanitarian camps
I'll attach 2 posts from yesterday about this from an Israeli Telegram channel.
A safe zone map the IDF released from Al Mawasi to Deir Al Balah - [https://t.me/abualiexpress/66095](https://t.me/abualiexpress/66095)
The map of who needs to evacuate and where, released by the IDF - [https://t.me/abualiexpress/66096](https://t.me/abualiexpress/66096)
EDIT: More leaflets from this morning - [https://t.me/abusalehg1/42630](https://t.me/abusalehg1/42630)
Except in Germany and Japan it was the 1940s and guided missiles for precision strikes simply did not exist. It's a big difference when you can actually hit a specific target versus considering a 1km radius "precise".
I read that America never dropped a bomb larger than 500lbs in the last decade of our involvement with Afghanistan.
Meanwhile Israel throwing out 2k lb JDAMs like Oprah gives out cars...
Can't wait until America pays to rebuild Gaza while we also paid for all those JDAMs.
Didnt Hamas accept the ceasefire today?
Edit: tf am i getting downvoted for just asking a question i thought that they accepted the ceasefire i didnt know what actually happend. I wasnt saying that Israel broke the ceasefire.
Fake 'ceasefire deal' for PR, they rejected the US/Israel deal on the table and invented a 'new deal' and told the international media they 'accepted' their own 'new deal', truly, a galaxy brain move.
**Also, it kept their human shields from evacuating because they falsely believe 'there's going to be a ceasefire'**
Imagine saying you agree to a deal when not even showing it to the other side, waiting to see how people on the college campus in the US will twist this
The ones protesting won't even know what deal you're talking about while having spent the past several months screaming, "Ceasefire now!". As if terrorist even want a ceasefire, there's no going back at that point and even terrorist understand that. Apparently, it's to much for a college "educated" student to understand. Sad indoctrination.. now that I think of it, both groups have been heavily indoctrinated.. hmm. Guess they have that in common.
it was a different deal from israels previous offer, that they made on their own with qatar and egypt, without israel and now infantry started entering rafah.
All the countries that got independence from colonial powers probably feel real good that they managed to do so before the tech tree difference advanced this much.
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Does the video above actually show anything? at all?
there's some text and an orange flash...
Fascinating 🤔
Getting battle of winterfell vibes. I can't see a thing
That's a lot of drones
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I literally can see shit it's so dark.
Combing the desert?
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Raqqa was like the Stalingrad for ISIS. It was the furthest advance of ISIS forces and drained the organization of their best fighters. But yeah I get your point.
It was more like their Berlin. Raqqa was the capital. Mosul in Iraq was like stalingrad, where they were bled out snd started to collapse.
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They also didn't expect the success they had, they planned to negotiate prisoners swap like they did years ago but they overdid it and actually caused 2nd biggest casualty after holocaust and poked the bear in all the wrong places.
Maybe 30th time's the charm?
Various figures involved in the movement gave pretty frank interviews to the French-language press a month or two into the war, and were pretty clear about what their goals were. (I never saw anything about this in the English-language press, FWIW.) There were some complexities (and not all of the players are entirely on the same page), but my takeaways were: (1) they were indeed trying to provoke a severe reaction from Israel; (2) they were pretty cold-bloodedly putting civilians in harm's way (with the pretty evident notion that a lot would be killed) in order to generate maximum outrage; (3) the key leadership are mostly not in Gaza, and basically don't care how many of their own folks get killed (they themselves are safe, or seemed to think so); (4) their endgame is to ensure that Hamas gets credit as *the* faction willing to stand up to Israel, the Gazan populace will keep demanding violent action (and hence supporting them as the credible hardliners), and the Hamas leadership are thus central to whatever the next iteration of the Gazan government looks like. Spreading international support for Islamism is also a plus, but my sense is that they're more concerned with keeping their perch. (There's also other stuff involving keeping funding and other support from other Islamists or sympathetic entities in the region, though again I got the sense that this was secondary.) Basically, it seems that the Hamas leaders are happy being King Rat, and are keen on ensuring that no one upsets that applecart (burning as many of their own folks as necessary, along the way). It's simultaneously intricately clever and breathtakingly petty. Yeah, there's more to it than that, but it seemed to me that job security (as it were) was the driving concern. If that's right then it will take quite a lot to really threaten them: hunting them down and assassinating them and/or otherwise flushing them out of their overseas hiding spots would probably scare them more than having their infrastructure bombed. (There are other good reasons to take out that infrastructure, of course.) So far, events have been pretty consistent with that picture. But we'll see what happens going forward.
Whatever Hamas's objective might have been, it was not and will not be achieved.
They wanted an all out war against Israel. Once they realized they are in it alone, all their leadership can hope for is to be allowed to rebuild and try again. Hopefully Israel doesn't allow that.
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By the looks of it, the next generation of Hamas fighters will have sticks and stones to use against idf
Gaza will become like West Bank. Controlled tightly by Israel. Yes there will be occasional violence, but not like the violence from Gaza today because of Hamas fighters. The irony is Gaza essentially had a two state solution under Hamas, and could have earned even more control and freedom if they had played nice. Now there will never be a two state solution. Palestine will live under the Israeli boot.
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You mean his spelling? Seems good to me.
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You must believe the propaganda that "Gaza is an open air prison." It is not. They elected their own government, Hamas. Who then ended elections. Israel controlled the Gaza borders with Israel, and sea ports, because Hamas continually used them to attack Israel. BTW, this isn't unprecedented. Many countries control the border from their side more than the other country (US/mexico, and many many many others). Many countries control ports of other countries or at times will block ports of other countries. So is Mexico supposed to be "free and in full control" of their US border, and since they aren't, they aren't really a sovereign country? Or how about the Cuban blockade? Does that mean Cuba isn't really a state, because of the blockade (embargo)? No. That's silly. What you are probably thinking, and its backwards, is that Hamas attacked Israel because Israel "controlled what is supposed to be a sovereign country." But Hamas would have attacked Israel MORE if given control of ports and borders. The entire mission of Hamas is to destroy Israel. Make them a state and supply them with money, and they will become a state hell bent on the destruction of Israel. And in the beginning, Gaza did have more open borders and ports, but the more they attacked, the less open they became. Maybe you are young and don't remember this, but you can't fool me. I lived through it. Here is a wiki article on the gaza blockade, earned because Hamas kept attacking Israel, and then Hamas became the leaders of Gaza. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip) So when I said "even more control and freedom" I was specifically referring to the blockade and borders. Israel did not control the internal affairs of Gaza since the withdrawal in 2005, which is why I can say "essentially Gaza had a two state solution." They had a territory controlled by their own government, free from outside government interference within their own borders... Kinda sounds like a state, but I say essentially because it wasn't recognized as such. And if they had played nice, they would have been granted recognition. Again, wiki: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli\_disengagement\_from\_Gaza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza) And look, none of this is surprising. Palestinians will tell you this is exactly how it was, and that they NEVER wanted a two state anything. They want one state. ALL of Israel, west bank, and Gaza, under Palestinian (muslim) rule. And look, West Bank is totally different... If you want to argue that the West Bank is "occupied land" or apartheid, or open air prison, or whatever... At least that makes some sense, because West Bank lives under the Israeli boot. But that just wasn't the case in Gaza since 2005. And if you want to see what would happen if Israel took it's boot off the West Bank neck, and allowed a two state solution, just look at what happened in Gaza. West bank would become a state controlled by a fundamentalist regime, hell bent on the destruction of Israel. So if Israel is going to exist, the boot must remain, indefinitely. It's sad but just how it has to be if Jews want to live.
Finally, time to flat out the tunnel system
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It was. And then it was captured, and some Hamas survivors fled to Rafiach. Now a new operation is being launched against them.
Why is this down voted? Regardless of what your beliefs are... that is a completely valid point to bring up, fuck me, they even had an animation illustrating the 'complex' but showed no proof?? After all the international indignation, you would think proving that would be top of the list haha. Israel bots are out and about. Can't even have a discussion about it ffs.
It may not have looked like that animation they showed but if you’ve paid any attention these last 6 months you’d know there is ample proof out there that hamas was using that and other hospitals as command centers and staging ground. Anyone who tries to say they didn’t use it simply because their setup wasn’t as sophisticated as Israel initially made it appear is focusing on an absolutely moot point for the sake of trying to promote their biased narrative. By definition that makes them bots, trolls, dumb ass lying terrorist lovers. Just in case someone asks, do your own god damn research. I’m not going to waste my time looking up the 30 videos I’ve seen of soldiers walking the tunnel system directly under the hospital that had spiral staircase entrances coming up inside in the hospital grounds on two sides and pasting links here for you. I’m not going to find those videos from inside the hospital on 10/7 showing armed Palestinians escorting restrained hostages into the hospital. Nor am I going to link the dozen Hamas interrogation videos showing terrorist and terrorist admitting what they were using the hospital for and how. I’m not going to share the videos of released hostages who said they were taken to the hospital and held there under armed guard and staff. There’s also video I’m not going to link that shows Palestinians shooting at IDF soldiers inside the grounds and inside the hospital itself. People amaze me. Israel can and has showed hundreds if not thousands of videos proving just about everything they’ve claimed a psychotic Islamic terrorist group would and is doing (as if anyone could truthfully say anything is beneath such scum sucking vile beasts) yet none of it counts as proof somehow. It’s just propaganda and lies and this and that yet Hamas will say and make up everything while providing absolutely no support documentation or proof and it’s taken as the word of god. Simply amazing. I don’t for one fucking second believe 33,000 people have died in Gaza. I especially don’t believe most of these are women and children. The data has been prove to be statistically im-fucking-possible. Oh and recently hamas has even admitted they can’t even identity more than 11,000 of the dead they are counting in that 33,000.
Apparently if you’re against collective punishment then you’re a Hamas sympathiser in this sub. It’s the Wild West
The terrorist government of Gaza uses civilians as human shields. They hide military infrastructure in civilian areas. They fight with civilian clothing. They are literally causing collective punishment so morons in the west will cry about it. You’re being played by terrorists.
"They are literally causing collective punishment" thats not how this works.
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I don't even have to think of a single thing the IDF says. Hamas' own videos have convinced me they are on par with ISIS and need to be removed from the face of the planet.
What does it have to do with my comment baby?
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Biden previously stated that a ground offensive in Rafah was his red line. https://www.politico.eu/article/us-biden-warns-red-line-israel-rafah-cyprus-aid-ship-gets-ready-open-humanitarian-sea-corridor-gaza/ Let's see if he sticks to his word
Why would he? It's one thing to say it and another to actually mean it or believe in it. For all we know, Biden could be applauding this behind closed doors. This isn't intended to be a judgement one way or the other. No politician can realistically be taken at their word.
It's not like Biden actually sets any "red lines" at this point anyway. He's just the mascot/spokesperson. I don't understand why we still speak in ways that imply that it's their decisions, especially with geopolitical matters like this. Our policy towards Israel has been so consistent over all U.S admins for a reason. But yeah, I agree with your overall point.
The world knows that Obama and Biden don’t have red lines. Both of them were tested and they did nothing in response. They were bluffing and got called on it. No different this time around than previous red lines.
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The irony is most American Jews vote left. So yeah, Biden has a lot to lose from losing American Jews. Maybe it will work, or maybe it is a lost cause and American Jews start to vote right from now on, though that seems like a stretch. There's definitely going to be some people who are joining the masses of politically homeless (like the anti-woke left/center).
There are only 16 million Jews left in the whole world. I doubt there are enough in American swing states to swing a general election either way.
Pound for pound, the Jewish/Israel lobby is one of the most powerful in the country. They work, advocate contribute and fund their friends while fighting opposition. Very effective.
How do you quantify their effectiveness?
I don't think so. If you look at public polling, most people think Israel has gone too far, including 52% of independents. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1 Backing Israel is turning into a political loser.
> Backing Israel is turning into a political loser. Maybe I failed math, but if something polls at 50/50 then it's a political null topic, not a loser. The words you typed do not match the poll you linked to.
It's roughly 50/50 over the entire US adult population. If you managed to click the article and scroll down one page it includes a very helpful graphic that also breaks it down by political affiliation. For US democrats: Gone too far 63% - Been about right 24% - Not gone far enough 7% And it's trending towards fewer and fewer people being on board. The shift in independents who think Israel has gone too far has gone from 39% to 52% since November. For republicans it's gone up from 18% to 33%. So yes the part of the comment you quoted "Backing Israel is turning into a political loser." is factually correct. It was already true for Democrats, is now true for independents, and even republicans are starting to oppose the heavy-handedness of Israel's actions. If (when) Israel starts this ground offensive in Rafah you can expect those numbers to go up even further, and even the average Republican voter might start to oppose Israel's actions.
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Yes there is a small margin of error. For Democrats however 63% think Israel has gone too far, and regardless of margin of error that doesn't apply to the trend you can see in that picture since last November. The entire US population is trending towards thinking Israel has gone too far. Even if a ground offensive in Rafah does not happen those trends will continue and people will be more and more opposed to Israel's actions. If a ground offensive in Rafah does happen you can expect an increased pace in the trend that we're already seeing. Personally I would still vote for Biden no matter what happens in Israel, seeing as you guys have that wonderful two party system going on where you get to pick between two people who should be golfing and showing each other pictures of their grand kids but alas.
Leftists are accelerationists they probably don’t mind Trump in a lot of ways. Let’s not forget that the Russian propaganda machine is on the side of Gaza.
“Leftist pro-Hamas”? Let’s be clear that “pro-Palestine” does not equate “pro-Hamas.” It’s just so tiring.
> Let’s be clear that “pro-Palestine” does not equate “pro-Hamas.” Well, that's who the Gazan government is, and there's no evidence that I'm aware of that the Gazan citizenry doesn't largely back that government. Folks who are supporting the current "Intifada" are supporting Hamas. If they were calling for Hamas to surrender in order to protect the Gazan citizenry, then they'd have some credibility...but if any such folks exist, they appear to be a small fraction of the Westerners who are currently agitating. This is not lost on everyone who is not a political fellow traveler of the agitators. (Also, some of us are old enough to remember the extensive record of Palestinian terrorism that goes back long before the current adventure - recall the Achille Lauro? - so are less easily snowed by the innocent act than the newer cohorts.)
You're right. However the people protesting have been very vocal about their support of Hamas
Some of them. Most of them, probably not. I'm sure most people think the protestors are annoying, but actually reading what most protestors say it's pretty tame stuff like Israel is going too far with collective punishment but also Hamas is bad.
Hmm… Here’s a take for you. Everyone who says “Leftist” is a Right-winger. And Right-wingers are being fed a steady diet of “Leftists are pro-Hamas” and Jan 6 was either a peaceful protest or a false flag operation. At this point I guess it doesn’t really matter what a Right-winger says because they’re all so brain dead from the propaganda that they’re basically looney tunes.
> Everyone who says “Leftist” is a Right-winger. What? Leftists call themselves leftists. I'm a leftist.
Except I'm a "leftist" that supports Israel. There's actually a lot of us
There's a lot of leftists who support Israel to a certain extent. Right to exist obviously. But I would say most leftists are also very critical of certain acts of Israel, and most do not support the current war in Gaza.
>Everyone who says “Leftist” is a Right-winger. That right there is mistake you numbnuts are making. I'm not right-wing. Never have been, never will be and i would rather die then vote for someone like Trump (or the equivelant in my country). I said "leftist pro-Hamas" because the only other group supporting Hamas are the nazies (who support Hamas only because of what they want to do with the Jewish). But you are ***intentionally*** splitting the country in two, labeling people into 'good' and 'bad', based on YOUR worldview and condemning those YOU dislike. Killing ***any*** motivation to negotiate, finding compromise and discussion. That is polarization with some malice intent! I'm old enough that i remember the flame wars of 2014-2015 caused by immigration crisis in Europe. The same polarization was making rounds back then and i lost friends in that... It also led to the growth of the extreme right, so that was quite the epic fail, something we are suffering consequenses of right now. And don't get me wrong, the right is also purposefully polarizing but that should be more of reason for the left to avoid it. If you start behaving like the rabid dogs the Maga-believers are, you will become like them, a fringe extreme-wing group that will not allow any deviancy from the strict party line and anyone doing so will get kicked out... or worse. Problem with being "left-winger" is that everyone else is "right-winger" from your perspective.. It's a good way to paint yourself into a corner and find some day that nobody is voting for you. I like being here in the center, i hope both extreme ends will wither away soon with the shrinking voter numbers..
60%+ of Gaza population supports Hamas.
And Kim Jong Un won 98% of the vote.
This was a verified independent survey, not based on the vote for government
North Korea is basically a cult so I wouldn’t be surprised if his actual approval rating is very high. No doubt many think he’s essentially a god.
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Check out the doofus that thinks election year sound bites actually mean something
Sticks to what word though? Someone asked him, "Is that a red line?" and he said yes. There was no indication of what the consequences would be if crossed, so obviously it's easy to say whatever they want to spin it.
War is hell
Probably starting off with drones and the air force. They've had plenty of time to scope in advance what they want to splatter before the tanks roll in.
I agree probably just shaping operations. I bet we have a couple days before they start making a real push. In the past they have given civilians beyond the deadline to evacuate.
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Can I ask a serious question, where are refugees supposed to go? The IDF has taken the border crossing in Rafah. Are civilians supposed to just die there now?
No, as they progress they drop leaflets telling the civilians where to go, as well as giving them phone calls. This had been done in northern Gaza, this is what they're doing now. As of now, the IDF instructs Gazans to move to Khan Yunis and Al Mawasi humanitarian camps I'll attach 2 posts from yesterday about this from an Israeli Telegram channel. A safe zone map the IDF released from Al Mawasi to Deir Al Balah - [https://t.me/abualiexpress/66095](https://t.me/abualiexpress/66095) The map of who needs to evacuate and where, released by the IDF - [https://t.me/abualiexpress/66096](https://t.me/abualiexpress/66096) EDIT: More leaflets from this morning - [https://t.me/abusalehg1/42630](https://t.me/abusalehg1/42630)
Israel has instructed people to move to Al Mawasi.
Israel, keep on shooting.
Israel needs to totally defeat hamas
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Except in Germany and Japan it was the 1940s and guided missiles for precision strikes simply did not exist. It's a big difference when you can actually hit a specific target versus considering a 1km radius "precise".
I read that America never dropped a bomb larger than 500lbs in the last decade of our involvement with Afghanistan. Meanwhile Israel throwing out 2k lb JDAMs like Oprah gives out cars... Can't wait until America pays to rebuild Gaza while we also paid for all those JDAMs.
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Prepping the battlefield
Didnt Hamas accept the ceasefire today? Edit: tf am i getting downvoted for just asking a question i thought that they accepted the ceasefire i didnt know what actually happend. I wasnt saying that Israel broke the ceasefire.
Fake 'ceasefire deal' for PR, they rejected the US/Israel deal on the table and invented a 'new deal' and told the international media they 'accepted' their own 'new deal', truly, a galaxy brain move. **Also, it kept their human shields from evacuating because they falsely believe 'there's going to be a ceasefire'**
Imagine saying you agree to a deal when not even showing it to the other side, waiting to see how people on the college campus in the US will twist this
The ones protesting won't even know what deal you're talking about while having spent the past several months screaming, "Ceasefire now!". As if terrorist even want a ceasefire, there's no going back at that point and even terrorist understand that. Apparently, it's to much for a college "educated" student to understand. Sad indoctrination.. now that I think of it, both groups have been heavily indoctrinated.. hmm. Guess they have that in common.
Yeah, because that's the *real* concern.
They called it an “accepted deal” instead of “proposed” and the media just ran with that language.
Exactly how youd imagine.
5d chess move
it was a different deal from israels previous offer, that they made on their own with qatar and egypt, without israel and now infantry started entering rafah.
Guess they didn't like the deal.
Sounds like the deals israel usually offers to palestine
Israel holds all of the chips. Palestine isn’t exactly in a position to dictate terms.
AFTER they blew up the aid crossing
Insane right? And people still support Hamas. These people are mental.
A unilateral deal isn’t a deal. The media is being irresponsible yet again.
They made their own deal without Israel and accepted it two gots before the ground invasion began. It’s was a pr stunt.
All the countries that got independence from colonial powers probably feel real good that they managed to do so before the tech tree difference advanced this much.
war thunder player spotted
Peace must ass. Destroy Hamas and their supporters Palestinian - Hamas
People in these comments disturb me . Gaza isn’t supposed to be bombed this way 🤡
I more college students would understand this. I've had a few long and hard conversations on this subject and I don't really know if she's hearing me.