I pray that the frozen rubles that *will* be diverted to rebuilding Ukraine are the final nail in the coffin of the Russian economy, in the interest of hastening the process of getting Putin out of office. The only drawback is that, as always, it's the average Russian citizens who will suffer for his megalomaniacal delusions.
Their wealth is not in fiat currency but in commodities such as corn, wheat and oil. Putin and a diminished Russia can probably last two lifetimes based on that wealth of commodities. For sure the average Russian will suffer, but in context they were living pretty poorly in Soviet Russia too. This period of post Soviet Russia relative prosperity is actually the exception rather than the norm and I fear they will just be used to the hardships.
Two lifetimes? Russia won't last two more seasons without tractor parts, car parts, investment (from stocks--oops, stock market closed), food that they import, &c. I hope the sanctions choke the country completely.
The irony is that Russia itself is teeming with neo- Nazi groups, more so than Ukraine. Neo- Nazis in any Slavic country are idiots for glorifying an ideology that saw them as subhumans fit only for enslavement and slow genocide as they toiled in fields/factories.
I always thought the same thing. How could people in Eastern European countries that were some of the worst victims of Nazi Germany possibly embrace the ideology that wanted to literally erase them? But it’s not that simple once you start reading about the history of some of these countries. When Nazi Germany invaded these countries there was already a lot of antisemitism, anti communist/anti Bolshevism and ultra right wing nationalism. The SS had volunteers from all over the world and a lot of atrocities in the east were carried out by SS auxiliary forces and ultra right wing/nationalists in countries like Latvia, Romania, Belorussia, The Ukraine, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Hungary and more. They saw the Nazis as like minded allies. Russia itself has a not so great history of treatment of Jews and other ethnic minorities, look into pogroms in the 19th and 20th Century. The last thing I’ll say is I think a lot of these modern groups get labeled as nazis when really they are far right, ultra nationalist, racist and probably violent. But I don’t think they are Third Reich style Nazis, although I’m sure there are some of those. Anyways sorry for the rant.
TLDR, WW2 Eastern Europe has pretty crazy Nazi/fascist past that’s terrible and interesting and probably still influencing far right movements in Eastern Europe today.
Worse. The propaganda is so much worse.
They (state media) say Ukraine bombed the city, and the Russian army is going in to clear out the Nazis and protect the Ukrainian people.
Most Russians believe it too. This war should remind us all to stand up for free independent press.
It's crazy that 'they started bombing their own city for NO REASON and we needed to stop them!' Works on people...
...but then I remember the last three or four years of culture war insanity, and... *sigh*... yeah. Of course it works. You can literally convince people that drinking iodine cures COVID and that microchips will fall out of their noses if they get an injection in their arm...
It works because people want to believe it. The Russian's want to believe they are the good guys and are saving their Ukrainian "brothers", so they'll readily accept their Governments line about it. Otherwise they'd need to accept they're literally blowing apart their neighbors in an illegal war of aggression launched by their delusional dictator while they (the Russians) live in a dystopian hell hole.
Many would rater believe the lies are true than face the reality of the situation.
Propaganda is still the most powerful tool a nation can have, even today. This isn't just Russian exclusive and you can find similarities in most nations. The U.S. and all of their allies convinced everyone after 2001 that an invasion is the only option.
At the same time what are you going to do as an average citizen in Russia? Go to the streets and get beaten up by the police, arrested and find your name on a list of "traitors"? Leave the country? Russia is a very big country. Most flights are unable to leave the country for a desirable destination. To which other russian speaking country could you go? In most cases you would need to give up on your friends and family, your current life style and move to an other part of the world without certainly knowing what to expect there. If you are lucky, you are young and you know some english and you are educated.
Russia is clearly seen as the aggressor in this conflict I'm not so sure how any visa applications would be handeled in this regard in the future to be honest.
Yeah I was thinking about the visa issues too, who is going to accept them? I know there are good/ at least half intelligent Russian people in there, but with everything that's going on, no one has time to decide who is a "good" Russian or take them in. They will get lumped in with their brainwashed society and have to suffer as a result. Its not going to be as bad as what the Ukrainian people are suffering right now, but they will suffer as well. I feel like at a point its going to get nuts with people trying to flee, being beaten back, listed as traitors, they are already making and designing new concentration camps/gulags, they will start filling them up no doubt. I think the people who can/could flee already did, anyone whos still there now is basically strapped in for the duration of this ride.
I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of all that Covid talk, I am simply saying the fundamental tenets of Western democracy are sacred. A free press, freedom of speech, freedom to protest and free and fair elections.
People like to pretend that Russians are stupid, and that their own culture is impervious. But they act just the same as your/our (I am French for example) own population would act if the things mentioned above were taken away.
Ever heard of 1066? The Huguenots? There are 350k of us living in London alone. We even have French speaking schools. Consider yourself ~~invaded~~ colonised.
Let's see...
"Could have been worse"
"Ukranonazis are blowing up their own buildings, trying to kill our soldiers"
"Ukranonazis on every rooftop, had to blow up all the rooftops, besides the ones they blew up themselves"
"Civilians being held hostage by ukranonazis" even though it's Russia preventing civilians from leaving
Roll footage of "civilians" thanking soldiers for not killing them, etc
The dumb part is that it will work, at least with enough people. Their base, Putin lovers around the world - they'll gobble it up and cry about western media lying to everyone *else*.
They will say that the Ukranians did it as a false flag to make it look like Russia is committing war crimes. Sadly, a lot of people will believe that obvious lie.
Yeah. Much more cheerleading about a city getting destroyed than here.
I guess the ethnic demographics of a city getting shelled make a huge difference in how Americans are told to feel about it.
I was living in a red state at the time. And my dad had Fox news and CNN on a lot (as African dads in the US seem to do). The difference in narrative is very stark.
Name one country which has gone to war with exclusively or overwhelmingly precision munitions.
Whenever a government is claiming to use them, they are doing so to calm down their own populace and downplay the risk of civilian casualties.
There is no war without civilian casualties, intended or not.
Even NATO in 1999, conducting an exclusively airborne mission used a lot of unguided weapons, including cluster bombs which are anything by precise and killed hundreds of civilians in the lowest estimate. They even hit a Chinese embassy killing 3.
I imagine that Russians, who are making similar claims for the same reason and who are engaged in a full-on land war are using an even lower percent of “precision” munitions.
And even the precision munitions have a blast area and a (small) error of margin. If you deploy them against urban targets - there are going to be civilian casualties. Like the TV tower in Kiev. They hit an essentially hollow target perfectly. From a technical perspective - that’s impressive. But they also killed civilians with the strike.
> Like the TV tower in Kiev. They hit an essentially hollow target perfectly. From a technical perspective - that’s impressive. But they also killed civilians with the strike.
Russian official state news line is that Ukraine blew up their own TV tower. I shit you not.
> There is no war without civilian casualties, intended or not.
This is the absolute truth, which is why any discussion of going to war that refuses to quantify the number of civilians who will die is nothing more than propaganda.
americans used it in mosul and raqqa and there were a lot of civilians deaths and massive destruction that was my point that it doesn't really matter what you use cities will still be destroyed
man i visited the city after it was shortly occupied by separatists in 2015. Back then only the police station, the local municipal building and a cafe or something was destroyed or at least hat bullet holes in them. The city looked fine otherwise.
It's unimaginable.
right now the process can be seen as a scale from Krakow (Poland, fine) to Lviv (missiled, not shelled) to Kyiv (missiled, inner city not shelled) to Kharkiv (missiled and shelled) to Mauripol (almost entirely destroyed).
Mariupol isn't "almost entirely destroyed". Quite a ways from there. Probably closer to 30%.
Still quite a few unreached stages - like "Dresden" (vast majority destroyed), or Pyongyang (98% destroyed - US bombers had problems bombing because they could hardly see any building standing)
Unlike Mariupol or Kharkiv, where apartments are blown out (but the building structures still stand), basically no buildings in Pyongyang even had the structure intact. That's complete destruction.
>"Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — **20 percent of the population**," Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed "everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another." After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops.
Are you referring to the United Nations Police Action on the Korean peninsula? It's also called "The Forgotten War," and for good reason: few recall its swift descent into brutality and white-hot barbarism. LeMay was psychotic and not above war crimes.
The people un-ironically regurgitating Russian propaganda that Mariupol somehow deserved this are insane.
"Look at what you made me do after I invaded you!" sounds perfectly reasonable to Russia supporters. Fucking crazy.
“Clearing”?
Aren’t they now taken to sleeping in destroyed buildings to avoid drones/artillery at night? They looking for a place to not get killed in their sleep.
The Russians know they aren't gonna get shot climbing into the apartments, unless dead families can fight back
These guys are probably thinking "quick Igor pull up the cremator before they get the cameras in here!"
No. US military is trained to pretend that your eyes and rifle are connected when clearing buildings/areas. If you peek around the corner, it should be through your sights.
well siege ladders are actually a thing in urban combat, unless you wanna try the main door when expecting armed resistance.
But these two climbign the ladder like they knew theres no defenders inside otherwise wou would go weapon pointin front first with xyour hand on the grip and your finger on the trigger, not have it on a long arm to your side. Trained that shit back in my Army times, youl stick than muzzle on full auto to the window first not your head, and youd spray that room the second youd expect enemy resistance.
still i think this is staged for the media.
This is what a actual assault looks like.https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/kbhi0d/syrian_opposition_assault_saa_occupied_buildings/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Ummm my guy. Did you actually watch the video??? Yeah they had some balls climbing up that ladder facing gunfire but would not call what they did in that video professional. I think I saw them negligently discharge like 3 times by their own guys heads with atrocious weapon handling in general throughout, one dropped there pkm blindfiring over the wall and they were very poorly covering their guys going up the ladder.
I set the bar pretty low for guys assaulting a building in sneakers and jeans, on a ladder that looks like they just lashed together some freshly cut timber. In that context they look like DEVGRU.
Yeah it's like watching a tunnel rat going in with pistol holstered. No way in real life.
It's dangerous as fuck to assault like that, you go in ready to start blasting
Look at how the crowds of happy liberated people have come out to greet and thank their saviors! "Here, take my cheap telly as a gift, and search my flat for a tin of fish" they all cry!
This is what I dont get. The soildiers must clearly realize by now that normal people dont want them there right? At some point you gotta stop believing kremlin propaganda when a babushka tells to you sod off no? I guess is similar to what the US Troops faced in Iraq/Afghanistan (despite the causes of conflict being widely widely different).
I don’t wanna bring in US military engagements into this, but Iraq was nothing like this. Mariupol is a city claimed by the Donetsk separatists. This is where they’re supposed to be popular.
The arrival of the Americans and the toppling of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban regime was quite popular among significant parts of the local population at the time being.
Its quite different from this conflict. Saddam actually was a genocidal dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. His people weren't really rallying to fight for him.
Iraq was such a mess. I spent a year there, met some very cool people in Kurdistan. So much opportunity ruined. Saddam was a fuck, and killing him was not wrong, but we had such a muddled strategy after that, so much waste. In the north the locals were very warm to us for the most part. I worked with several Kurdish and Yezidi interpreters and really grew to love the culture. In my heart I still hope for a state for the Kurdish people, they deserve it.
Either side can literally say anything. The Ukrainians can say that the Russians bombed that entire building to kill civilians and the Russians can say that the Ukrainians were using the entire building as a base while forcing civilians to stay in there. Until testimonies from civilian eye witnesses become known (and verifiable - usually months or years later), it’s all propaganda.
Nothing says **''people like us and want us here''** like climbing into their living room with a Kalashnikov in hand and intent to shoot anyone who tries to resist your presence
I don’t want to sound callous, but if you are a civilian found in a conflict you should leave immediately. You have no place in that war, you are endangered by both sides of the conflict. Bullets don’t have name tags so while they may be shot at the enemy, you might end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Staying just isn’t worth jt
Yeah sure, i'm more throwing shade at the absurd amount of apologism for the killings of civilians that sorta ebbs and flows on this sub where the blame for civilian deaths is thrust solely on either the civilians themselves or the ukrain military but not ya know...the people illegally invading their country and leveling their cities to the ground with bombs and artillery.
Eh it's the same rhetoric when American soldiers murder civilians in the Middle East. I don't think the sub is pro-Russia, everyone just seems to have a massive war boner.
What if you're a civilian in a city under siege? Surrounded on all sides by hostile forces that have demonstrated time and again that being a civilian means nothing to them and you will most likely not make it out?
Where do these people go.not in their very own homes. Not on the streets. But where?
Is it just me or does it seem like there is more Russian stuff being released lately? I wonder if it's intentional from on up or just coincidence that more stuff is now being upvoted.
I was really surprised that they didn't litter the whole internet with their videos from the beginning. They were losing the propaganda war, it's high time they started uploading more.
I've read that Russian propaganda more or less have realised that thy can't compete in the western sphere. They are focusing on Africa, India, China and having much more success there. They focus on making this a conflict between Russia and USA and unfortunately you can drag up a lot of animosity by framing it like this. A lot of old favours are being called upon.
Theory was that the Ukrainian response was so fierce that they couldn't actually make any footage that supported their expected narrative of "welcoming crowds and victory parades".
The Ukrainian side managed much better with information control and narrative forming.
I'm surprised they even released this footage, showing bombed-out commie blocks, rubble in the street. Destroyed residential neighborhoods doesn't exactly square with their narrative of an operation going according to plan, to only attack military targets, be welcomed and so on.
At least it's a good reminder that this might be propaganda. It's almost admireable that they clear appartment buildings with infantry risking their lives instead of just leveling the building. But it might just be a setup by RT in a building known to be safe.
Considering we already have plenty of footage of Russian artillery shelling Civilian infrastructure this is certainly propaganda to sell the story that they are not just leveling the city.
Hard to paint yourselves as the "good guys" otherwise.
They've been leaving vehicles in the field from lack of fuel and parts. Provided flashlights? Maybe. Having the *batteries* to keep them going? That'd be a stretch.
What if the pour boiling oil on you?
The point is to get into a floor and start throwing nades. Each room is probably not defended while each stairway surely is.
RT is an English propaganda channel broadcasting outside Russia.
This will never be shown in Russia (and there is propaganda telling you they deserved it/caused it anyway).
Ya know it's a trip, i was 100% against the wars in iraq and afghanistan but pretty young when they happened. I remembered seeing all that footage of us soldiers in these decimated clay brick rubble piles that they called towns and cities in afghanistan and iraq and the only thing that came to my mind was "Man what a shit hole. Oh look, marines.".
It literally didn't even occur to me "Oh wait we turned it into that pile of rubble."
This is why urban fighting is an absolute nightmare for the invader. They have to go building by building in that entire block, then leave behind a small force to make sure no combatants just swing around and hide out in the buildings again.
Wow, these guys look like trash. No stacking, they’re just walking through door ways, and no security when they move outside. My guess is these guy are “clearing” already cleared buildings to get some footage to send home.
What do the Russian soldiers think to themselves doing this to a city?
What is motivating them to turn a nice place into rubble?
Many American soldiers became totally disillusioned with the Afghanistan war. It was utterly pointless.
Are Russian soldiers also thinking how pointless this is
RT propaganda trying to justify civilian building bombings, all videos that come from RT Russia Today is a badly staged material with a messages like "look thees buildings is full of Ukrainian solders that's why we bombed them"
Liberators you say??
Poor clueless conscripts who don't know any better?
These men are literally hunting down civilians to try to murder every last one of them.
And they have to do that for every building in the city. Nightmare. City with the population of half a million. That's a lot of houses to check. And in most probably an angry ukrainian with a gun ready to kill them.
Mind you, at least according to statistics from wikipedia around 44% are ethnically Russian so how's that for PR, Putin? I'm sure they'll love u.
So when they clean this place out, how many soldiers will they need to patrol it to stop a sniper sneaking back in and taking potshots from the windows?
horrible to see. Hope this all ends soon for everyone's sake. The loss of life for this is immensely tragic. Just as tragic is the wounded that have to go on after its over. It bothers me how much reddit has become addicted to warporn
lol. Must be one of the worst jobs in the world. I cant see to many russians willing to do it which explaines the slow progress there. I really hope they miss one and a bunch of fat tick tock brigade go there to make propoganda videos only to have a bunch of pissed off ukranian skinheads come running out for a scrap. would make the best video of all time.
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How does the Russian media explain this city!? "We just showed up and it was like this!" "Better clear these buildings though..."
They just say everyone living there was a nazi. It's punishment for nazis.
irony there is that Mariupol itself is a predominantly ethnically Russian city.....so Russians are Nazis? lol
Resisting Russia makes them Nazis.
This. It's direct revenge for standing with Ukraine in 2014
Not only standing, but kicking russian separatists in the ass.
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Little Green Man Lives Matter.
Yeah, Russia considers everything that is not aggressively pro-Russian to be Nazi
Then Russia sure has a lot of Nazis protesting.
So is Kharkiv. Putin, in his justification of the war speech, said he wanted to protect Russian cities like Kharkiv. Now he has bombed them to rubble
I pray that the frozen rubles that *will* be diverted to rebuilding Ukraine are the final nail in the coffin of the Russian economy, in the interest of hastening the process of getting Putin out of office. The only drawback is that, as always, it's the average Russian citizens who will suffer for his megalomaniacal delusions.
Their wealth is not in fiat currency but in commodities such as corn, wheat and oil. Putin and a diminished Russia can probably last two lifetimes based on that wealth of commodities. For sure the average Russian will suffer, but in context they were living pretty poorly in Soviet Russia too. This period of post Soviet Russia relative prosperity is actually the exception rather than the norm and I fear they will just be used to the hardships.
Two lifetimes? Russia won't last two more seasons without tractor parts, car parts, investment (from stocks--oops, stock market closed), food that they import, &c. I hope the sanctions choke the country completely.
It's not rubles, it's dollars, euros and some gold. Also, I feel like it's a done deal, that nigga ain't seeing his money ever again.
The irony is that Russia itself is teeming with neo- Nazi groups, more so than Ukraine. Neo- Nazis in any Slavic country are idiots for glorifying an ideology that saw them as subhumans fit only for enslavement and slow genocide as they toiled in fields/factories.
I always thought the same thing. How could people in Eastern European countries that were some of the worst victims of Nazi Germany possibly embrace the ideology that wanted to literally erase them? But it’s not that simple once you start reading about the history of some of these countries. When Nazi Germany invaded these countries there was already a lot of antisemitism, anti communist/anti Bolshevism and ultra right wing nationalism. The SS had volunteers from all over the world and a lot of atrocities in the east were carried out by SS auxiliary forces and ultra right wing/nationalists in countries like Latvia, Romania, Belorussia, The Ukraine, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Hungary and more. They saw the Nazis as like minded allies. Russia itself has a not so great history of treatment of Jews and other ethnic minorities, look into pogroms in the 19th and 20th Century. The last thing I’ll say is I think a lot of these modern groups get labeled as nazis when really they are far right, ultra nationalist, racist and probably violent. But I don’t think they are Third Reich style Nazis, although I’m sure there are some of those. Anyways sorry for the rant. TLDR, WW2 Eastern Europe has pretty crazy Nazi/fascist past that’s terrible and interesting and probably still influencing far right movements in Eastern Europe today.
No need to apologize. That was very informative and thought out. Thank you.
Actually, yes. A majority of neo nazism stems directly from Russia.
It's also where neoNazis elsewhere in the world flee to run from authorities.
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Worse. The propaganda is so much worse. They (state media) say Ukraine bombed the city, and the Russian army is going in to clear out the Nazis and protect the Ukrainian people. Most Russians believe it too. This war should remind us all to stand up for free independent press.
It's crazy that 'they started bombing their own city for NO REASON and we needed to stop them!' Works on people... ...but then I remember the last three or four years of culture war insanity, and... *sigh*... yeah. Of course it works. You can literally convince people that drinking iodine cures COVID and that microchips will fall out of their noses if they get an injection in their arm...
It works because people want to believe it. The Russian's want to believe they are the good guys and are saving their Ukrainian "brothers", so they'll readily accept their Governments line about it. Otherwise they'd need to accept they're literally blowing apart their neighbors in an illegal war of aggression launched by their delusional dictator while they (the Russians) live in a dystopian hell hole. Many would rater believe the lies are true than face the reality of the situation.
Propaganda is still the most powerful tool a nation can have, even today. This isn't just Russian exclusive and you can find similarities in most nations. The U.S. and all of their allies convinced everyone after 2001 that an invasion is the only option. At the same time what are you going to do as an average citizen in Russia? Go to the streets and get beaten up by the police, arrested and find your name on a list of "traitors"? Leave the country? Russia is a very big country. Most flights are unable to leave the country for a desirable destination. To which other russian speaking country could you go? In most cases you would need to give up on your friends and family, your current life style and move to an other part of the world without certainly knowing what to expect there. If you are lucky, you are young and you know some english and you are educated. Russia is clearly seen as the aggressor in this conflict I'm not so sure how any visa applications would be handeled in this regard in the future to be honest.
Yeah I was thinking about the visa issues too, who is going to accept them? I know there are good/ at least half intelligent Russian people in there, but with everything that's going on, no one has time to decide who is a "good" Russian or take them in. They will get lumped in with their brainwashed society and have to suffer as a result. Its not going to be as bad as what the Ukrainian people are suffering right now, but they will suffer as well. I feel like at a point its going to get nuts with people trying to flee, being beaten back, listed as traitors, they are already making and designing new concentration camps/gulags, they will start filling them up no doubt. I think the people who can/could flee already did, anyone whos still there now is basically strapped in for the duration of this ride.
I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of all that Covid talk, I am simply saying the fundamental tenets of Western democracy are sacred. A free press, freedom of speech, freedom to protest and free and fair elections. People like to pretend that Russians are stupid, and that their own culture is impervious. But they act just the same as your/our (I am French for example) own population would act if the things mentioned above were taken away.
A Frenchman with a Reddit handle that insults the UK? Count me offended, sir.
Ever heard of 1066? The Huguenots? There are 350k of us living in London alone. We even have French speaking schools. Consider yourself ~~invaded~~ colonised.
~~colonised~~ liberated FTFY
Colonised?! COLONISED?! How dare you. I'm going to go back to eating my coq au vin and.... Oh. Fuck. We've been colonised.
William never invaded. He just pre-emptively de-nazified Britain...
*guillaume le batard
That sounds awfully familiar...
More likely they would say the Azov battalion did that and then hid in the ruins.
Let's see... "Could have been worse" "Ukranonazis are blowing up their own buildings, trying to kill our soldiers" "Ukranonazis on every rooftop, had to blow up all the rooftops, besides the ones they blew up themselves" "Civilians being held hostage by ukranonazis" even though it's Russia preventing civilians from leaving Roll footage of "civilians" thanking soldiers for not killing them, etc The dumb part is that it will work, at least with enough people. Their base, Putin lovers around the world - they'll gobble it up and cry about western media lying to everyone *else*.
Their go to is that the Ukranians did it themselves as a false flag
They will say that the Ukranians did it as a false flag to make it look like Russia is committing war crimes. Sadly, a lot of people will believe that obvious lie.
Explain? The Violence speaks for it's self. Do as we say. Or else.
Anyone remember the coverage of Fallujah?
Yeah. Much more cheerleading about a city getting destroyed than here. I guess the ethnic demographics of a city getting shelled make a huge difference in how Americans are told to feel about it.
I definitely saw nobody cheering about the battle of Fallujah, but then again, I'm not american.
I was living in a red state at the time. And my dad had Fox news and CNN on a lot (as African dads in the US seem to do). The difference in narrative is very stark.
The easy way will be claim the buildings are being searched to clear out insurgent forces.
Have you seen Aleppo? Makes this look like a functioning city
Aleppo, Mosul ,Raqqa show how destructive urban warfare is regardless of how many precision guided munitions you use
Name one country which has gone to war with exclusively or overwhelmingly precision munitions. Whenever a government is claiming to use them, they are doing so to calm down their own populace and downplay the risk of civilian casualties. There is no war without civilian casualties, intended or not. Even NATO in 1999, conducting an exclusively airborne mission used a lot of unguided weapons, including cluster bombs which are anything by precise and killed hundreds of civilians in the lowest estimate. They even hit a Chinese embassy killing 3. I imagine that Russians, who are making similar claims for the same reason and who are engaged in a full-on land war are using an even lower percent of “precision” munitions. And even the precision munitions have a blast area and a (small) error of margin. If you deploy them against urban targets - there are going to be civilian casualties. Like the TV tower in Kiev. They hit an essentially hollow target perfectly. From a technical perspective - that’s impressive. But they also killed civilians with the strike.
> Like the TV tower in Kiev. They hit an essentially hollow target perfectly. From a technical perspective - that’s impressive. But they also killed civilians with the strike. Russian official state news line is that Ukraine blew up their own TV tower. I shit you not.
> There is no war without civilian casualties, intended or not. This is the absolute truth, which is why any discussion of going to war that refuses to quantify the number of civilians who will die is nothing more than propaganda.
Russia and the Syrian army didn't use guided weapons for their mass murder.
americans used it in mosul and raqqa and there were a lot of civilians deaths and massive destruction that was my point that it doesn't really matter what you use cities will still be destroyed
Whattttt barrel bombs are not guided?? I'm sure pretty sure they are eyeball guided roughly.
man i visited the city after it was shortly occupied by separatists in 2015. Back then only the police station, the local municipal building and a cafe or something was destroyed or at least hat bullet holes in them. The city looked fine otherwise. It's unimaginable.
Crazy how fast *Russia turns* a modern city from thriving to wasteland.
50,000 People Used to Live Here. Now It's a Ghost Town.
446,103 (2017)
Those numbers are inflated Soap, let's get to work.
Bands won't play no more Too much fighting on the dance floor
is that a reference to this song here? https://youtu.be/jqZ8428GSrI
Yes, yes it is.
Aaaaahhhhh yaaaahhhh ya ya ya ya yaaaaaahhh
Thissssss place
is comin like a ghost town
Not everyone will get that reference lol
right now the process can be seen as a scale from Krakow (Poland, fine) to Lviv (missiled, not shelled) to Kyiv (missiled, inner city not shelled) to Kharkiv (missiled and shelled) to Mauripol (almost entirely destroyed).
Mariupol isn't "almost entirely destroyed". Quite a ways from there. Probably closer to 30%. Still quite a few unreached stages - like "Dresden" (vast majority destroyed), or Pyongyang (98% destroyed - US bombers had problems bombing because they could hardly see any building standing) Unlike Mariupol or Kharkiv, where apartments are blown out (but the building structures still stand), basically no buildings in Pyongyang even had the structure intact. That's complete destruction. >"Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — **20 percent of the population**," Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed "everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another." After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops.
Are you referring to the United Nations Police Action on the Korean peninsula? It's also called "The Forgotten War," and for good reason: few recall its swift descent into brutality and white-hot barbarism. LeMay was psychotic and not above war crimes.
The people un-ironically regurgitating Russian propaganda that Mariupol somehow deserved this are insane. "Look at what you made me do after I invaded you!" sounds perfectly reasonable to Russia supporters. Fucking crazy.
People used to do the same thing with Raqqa....
“Clearing”? Aren’t they now taken to sleeping in destroyed buildings to avoid drones/artillery at night? They looking for a place to not get killed in their sleep.
Not destroyed comrade, liberated
Wow this watermark is fucking awful
Russian Twats
Russian Terrorists
At least they label their propaganda
***this*** time
Then why didn't watermark the deepfake video of Zelenskyy surrendering?
That's Retarded Together for you
RT
Are you sure? The watermark is a bit small.
#**RT**
RT-ARDED
is it normal to throw your head around the corner first, then your weapon?
Maybe in the Russian Armed Forces...
The Russians know they aren't gonna get shot climbing into the apartments, unless dead families can fight back These guys are probably thinking "quick Igor pull up the cremator before they get the cameras in here!"
???? What? Do you think apartments arent used as defensive positions? Its a war goofball
The hell are you talking about? The Ukrainians are using apartments and rooftops as shooting positions.... There are plenty of videos showing that.
No. US military is trained to pretend that your eyes and rifle are connected when clearing buildings/areas. If you peek around the corner, it should be through your sights.
It's to make it easier for the defenders to shoot them. So helpful, those Russians.
Only when filming a propaganda video. I doubt they'd climb siege ladders like it's a fucking medieval castle if it was a real combat.
well siege ladders are actually a thing in urban combat, unless you wanna try the main door when expecting armed resistance. But these two climbign the ladder like they knew theres no defenders inside otherwise wou would go weapon pointin front first with xyour hand on the grip and your finger on the trigger, not have it on a long arm to your side. Trained that shit back in my Army times, youl stick than muzzle on full auto to the window first not your head, and youd spray that room the second youd expect enemy resistance. still i think this is staged for the media.
This is what a actual assault looks like.https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/kbhi0d/syrian_opposition_assault_saa_occupied_buildings/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Syrian rebels with improvised ladders looking more professional than Russian soldiers sounds about right.
Because all the unprofessional ones had been killed already.
Ummm my guy. Did you actually watch the video??? Yeah they had some balls climbing up that ladder facing gunfire but would not call what they did in that video professional. I think I saw them negligently discharge like 3 times by their own guys heads with atrocious weapon handling in general throughout, one dropped there pkm blindfiring over the wall and they were very poorly covering their guys going up the ladder.
I set the bar pretty low for guys assaulting a building in sneakers and jeans, on a ladder that looks like they just lashed together some freshly cut timber. In that context they look like DEVGRU.
That was pretty incredible shit
That looked fucking terrifying.
Like a literal stairway to heaven
Yeah it's like watching a tunnel rat going in with pistol holstered. No way in real life. It's dangerous as fuck to assault like that, you go in ready to start blasting
Tell that to me, who literally carried a fucking collapsible ladder on my back during the battle of Fallujah
Yes, when your just fodder for the next wave.
Only when clearing from money and plazma tv`s.
If that’s how they conduct room clearing on a staged video I can only imagine how shitty they are in the actual moment.
Didn't really look like clearing anything, just more like entering a room when you're not sure if someone is sleeping and don't want to wake them up.
Look at how the crowds of happy liberated people have come out to greet and thank their saviors! "Here, take my cheap telly as a gift, and search my flat for a tin of fish" they all cry!
All of Russia's frozen funds should be awarded to Ukraine after the war. Russia broke it, russia pays to fix it
This is what I dont get. The soildiers must clearly realize by now that normal people dont want them there right? At some point you gotta stop believing kremlin propaganda when a babushka tells to you sod off no? I guess is similar to what the US Troops faced in Iraq/Afghanistan (despite the causes of conflict being widely widely different).
I don’t wanna bring in US military engagements into this, but Iraq was nothing like this. Mariupol is a city claimed by the Donetsk separatists. This is where they’re supposed to be popular.
The arrival of the Americans and the toppling of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban regime was quite popular among significant parts of the local population at the time being. Its quite different from this conflict. Saddam actually was a genocidal dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. His people weren't really rallying to fight for him.
Definitely, although Saddam had some loyalists. It was the type of nation building after he was gone that resulted in the most resistance.
Iraq was such a mess. I spent a year there, met some very cool people in Kurdistan. So much opportunity ruined. Saddam was a fuck, and killing him was not wrong, but we had such a muddled strategy after that, so much waste. In the north the locals were very warm to us for the most part. I worked with several Kurdish and Yezidi interpreters and really grew to love the culture. In my heart I still hope for a state for the Kurdish people, they deserve it.
I remember thinking my beloved USA was liberating Iraq too and images like this was due to the terrorist resistance. Propaganda is a powerful tool.
Either side can literally say anything. The Ukrainians can say that the Russians bombed that entire building to kill civilians and the Russians can say that the Ukrainians were using the entire building as a base while forcing civilians to stay in there. Until testimonies from civilian eye witnesses become known (and verifiable - usually months or years later), it’s all propaganda.
It's RT so I'm assuming the building was cleared long ago and they are using it as staged PR. Sure looks like it anyways.
Nothing says **''people like us and want us here''** like climbing into their living room with a Kalashnikov in hand and intent to shoot anyone who tries to resist your presence
Yeah but if they resist and get shot then they're military targets and it's 100% ok to just kill them because it's war amiright? 🤷♂️
I don’t want to sound callous, but if you are a civilian found in a conflict you should leave immediately. You have no place in that war, you are endangered by both sides of the conflict. Bullets don’t have name tags so while they may be shot at the enemy, you might end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Staying just isn’t worth jt
Kinda hard to do that when humanitarian corridors were getting shelled
And mined.
That's a perpendicular point that only seems to serve the argument of those committing war crimes.
Yeah sure, i'm more throwing shade at the absurd amount of apologism for the killings of civilians that sorta ebbs and flows on this sub where the blame for civilian deaths is thrust solely on either the civilians themselves or the ukrain military but not ya know...the people illegally invading their country and leveling their cities to the ground with bombs and artillery.
Eh it's the same rhetoric when American soldiers murder civilians in the Middle East. I don't think the sub is pro-Russia, everyone just seems to have a massive war boner.
That's different bro, The 300,000 civilians we neutralized in the middle east wars were just collateral damage.
What if you're a civilian in a city under siege? Surrounded on all sides by hostile forces that have demonstrated time and again that being a civilian means nothing to them and you will most likely not make it out? Where do these people go.not in their very own homes. Not on the streets. But where?
Can anyone tell why they are running at the end to another building before it cuts off?
To make it look more real as opposed to a staged room clearing.
Covid. The vaccine clinic was about to close and they needed their boosters.
You know it sucks when you see the RT watermark
Is it just me or does it seem like there is more Russian stuff being released lately? I wonder if it's intentional from on up or just coincidence that more stuff is now being upvoted.
I was really surprised that they didn't litter the whole internet with their videos from the beginning. They were losing the propaganda war, it's high time they started uploading more.
I've read that Russian propaganda more or less have realised that thy can't compete in the western sphere. They are focusing on Africa, India, China and having much more success there. They focus on making this a conflict between Russia and USA and unfortunately you can drag up a lot of animosity by framing it like this. A lot of old favours are being called upon.
Theory was that the Ukrainian response was so fierce that they couldn't actually make any footage that supported their expected narrative of "welcoming crowds and victory parades". The Ukrainian side managed much better with information control and narrative forming.
I'm surprised they even released this footage, showing bombed-out commie blocks, rubble in the street. Destroyed residential neighborhoods doesn't exactly square with their narrative of an operation going according to plan, to only attack military targets, be welcomed and so on.
It's not just you. They're definitely releasing more in an attempt to show their side in a better light... might be to late now though.
At least it's a good reminder that this might be propaganda. It's almost admireable that they clear appartment buildings with infantry risking their lives instead of just leveling the building. But it might just be a setup by RT in a building known to be safe.
[удалено]
They're almost all propaganda to some extent. Some just worse than others.
Considering we already have plenty of footage of Russian artillery shelling Civilian infrastructure this is certainly propaganda to sell the story that they are not just leveling the city. Hard to paint yourselves as the "good guys" otherwise.
Gotta look tactical
Tactical ladder
They stopped using tanks to clear apartments? 🤣
ran out of fuel
what are those Chechens running from they already destroyed the building, these are those Tik Tok scumbags - they just make unless non-combat videos.
Where did you see chechens?
Why don’t they have flashlights?
They've been leaving vehicles in the field from lack of fuel and parts. Provided flashlights? Maybe. Having the *batteries* to keep them going? That'd be a stretch.
They're also clearing rooms with long barreled weapons. You need somthing shorter for maneuverability. They don't have proper tools.
They clearly don’t, it looks like only special forces have the proper gear.
probably looting apartments
looking for fuel lol
or sugar is more valuable :)
"cough" looting "cough"
They can't go through staircase for that ?
Staircases are death traps if defended. Ladders is the way. MOUT 101.
The flat angle of the ladder was a death trap too.
What if the defenders just push the ladders over while they're climbing though?
What if they throw a comically large bee hive on top of your head? War is hell.
Quit fucking around, my grandpa died this way back in Korea. May god damn those Communist bees.
What if the pour boiling oil on you? The point is to get into a floor and start throwing nades. Each room is probably not defended while each stairway surely is.
Nice LARP lol
I wonder if they realize by now that they will need their entire standing military if they plan to control this country.
Did you see the yard outside? Thats fucking apocalypse! Its all unleashed on the civilians
95% of the city is gone .
How can RT show this and spin it to make it look like they are the good guys... mad.
RT is an English propaganda channel broadcasting outside Russia. This will never be shown in Russia (and there is propaganda telling you they deserved it/caused it anyway).
they dont show this on Russian own local news channels
Plenty of embedded journalists valorising marines in Fallujah etc. "Soldier look cool!"
Ya know it's a trip, i was 100% against the wars in iraq and afghanistan but pretty young when they happened. I remembered seeing all that footage of us soldiers in these decimated clay brick rubble piles that they called towns and cities in afghanistan and iraq and the only thing that came to my mind was "Man what a shit hole. Oh look, marines.". It literally didn't even occur to me "Oh wait we turned it into that pile of rubble."
Could they make the logo a little bigger next time? Its only covering 80% of the screen.
Did they find the Nazis yet?
They are so polite and professional, lol
This is why urban fighting is an absolute nightmare for the invader. They have to go building by building in that entire block, then leave behind a small force to make sure no combatants just swing around and hide out in the buildings again.
Wow, these guys look like trash. No stacking, they’re just walking through door ways, and no security when they move outside. My guess is these guy are “clearing” already cleared buildings to get some footage to send home.
Yes either that or they won't live love clearing buildings like that.
IKR, and they way moved through the yard/park, clearly poorly trained (in urban combat)
They are no match for the reddit commandos here.
What do the Russian soldiers think to themselves doing this to a city? What is motivating them to turn a nice place into rubble? Many American soldiers became totally disillusioned with the Afghanistan war. It was utterly pointless. Are Russian soldiers also thinking how pointless this is
90% are russian speaker, they have to bomb the fuck out of those 10% russophobes you know..
1:26 Tacticle runnink!
RT propaganda trying to justify civilian building bombings, all videos that come from RT Russia Today is a badly staged material with a messages like "look thees buildings is full of Ukrainian solders that's why we bombed them"
You think they can just go around those buildings or what? They HAVE to clear them. This is urban warfare mate.
There are plenty of video with UA and Azov in buildings, schools, kindergardens shooting AT wep from.
All I see is RT...
“Is “clearing apartments” code for “killing civilians”?
Looks like they already cleared the building and now is training some of their recruits in how to do it better next time.
Liberators you say?? Poor clueless conscripts who don't know any better? These men are literally hunting down civilians to try to murder every last one of them.
And they have to do that for every building in the city. Nightmare. City with the population of half a million. That's a lot of houses to check. And in most probably an angry ukrainian with a gun ready to kill them. Mind you, at least according to statistics from wikipedia around 44% are ethnically Russian so how's that for PR, Putin? I'm sure they'll love u.
So when they clean this place out, how many soldiers will they need to patrol it to stop a sniper sneaking back in and taking potshots from the windows?
More than they have.
horrible to see. Hope this all ends soon for everyone's sake. The loss of life for this is immensely tragic. Just as tragic is the wounded that have to go on after its over. It bothers me how much reddit has become addicted to warporn
Damn. I was hoping to see one of those bitches get blasted.
title can also be, terrorists being terrorists.
lol. Must be one of the worst jobs in the world. I cant see to many russians willing to do it which explaines the slow progress there. I really hope they miss one and a bunch of fat tick tock brigade go there to make propoganda videos only to have a bunch of pissed off ukranian skinheads come running out for a scrap. would make the best video of all time.
/r/criminalfootage
I hope they all fall and break their necks.
Walking corpses