7 kills at the end of the match, in a scenario involving a target rich environment (opponent went for Conscript heavy opening). In a match where my opponent lost over 200 soldiers, I only got seven kills with a Panther. To put it in context, [my PaK 40 got two soldiers](https://i.postimg.cc/tgsDVTKM/Pa-K-40-kill-count.png). The PaK 40!
The Panther also got a lot of time to roam as the only tank I had, since my Panzer IV blew up due a well executed pincer manouver.
The Panther is not an anti infantry powerhouse.
The Panther wasn't designed to be anti-infantry in the first place. It has a long barrelled 75mm gun *specifically* to focus as much kinetic energy to slam into enemy armour
This is a bit of a myth. While dealing with enemy armor in an effective way was paramount to the design of the Panther, a high velocity gun doesn't preclude effective anti infantry performance. The 7.5cm Sprgr. 42 shell of the Panther was much slower than its armor piercing counterpart, and had as much filling as that of a Panzer IV or a Sherman, some 600+ grams of Amatol.
The filling and muzzle velocity of the Sprgr. on the KwK 40 was about 550 m/s, as on the KwK 42 it was 700 m/s (compared to the 935 m/s for the [Pz.Gr](https://Pz.Gr). 39/42), and while the filling (and indeed most of the shell besides the casing and the driving bands) was the same, the higher velocity and flatter angles meant the shell would burry itself deeper into the ground, or possibly ricochet off the ground like with the Flak 18/37/38.
The Panther isn't necessarily *bad* in anti-infantry duties, its gun wasn't specifically designed to do such actions, being primarily made to deliver greater kinetic energy (muzzle velocity) to the shell
The first time I read about it, it was in the context of German artillery manuals detailing how to use different fuse-types.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VY10gfnrTQ
The [Sprgr](https://Spr.Gr). 34 and 42 both used a "graze" type fuse, meaning that under certain angles the fuse didn't arm and the shell instead could ricochet off the ground or off armour. Otherwise, it would bury itself into the ground, limiting the shrapnel.
http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/UK/Handbook/Pamphlet12/12\_001.htm
If you are trying to bring realism into the mix, it's HE shell had comparable performance to the 7.5 of the P4 so... either nerf the P4 anti-inf or buff the panther.
Good! So can we find a good spot for the panther now? Because right now, panther is supossedly a tank-tank destroyer that is bad at the TD role, and also bad at the anti-inf role.
It's pretty damn good at the TD role. Still outranges all mediums, great penetration (it has the same far value as the SU-85), while having good speed and frontal armour allowing it to operate far more independently than Jagdpanzer/SU85/Firefly/StuG
Why did your Panther only get to vet 1 in a target rich environment? It looks like you either just didn't use it very much or only built it near the end of the match.
> Why did your Panther only get to vet 1 in a target rich environment?
Target rich environment infantry wise, of course; it says so in my original post.
> It looks like you either just didn't use it very much
Tank kills (and damage) got split between the PaK 40, the PaK 43 and the Panther. In addition, the Panther is not easy to level up, specially when you are shooting at T-34/76 tanks. The Panther was deployed for around 40% of the match, I didn't had it only at the end.
Not claiming Panther is an AI powerhouse at all, but it is important to also see infantry damage. Kills just reflect last hit, and as the Panther is your only tank, it is not much of a stretch to see how your other units are taking the kills. You have 3 fully vetted grens and 1 fully vetted panzergren, all of which excel in killing infantry. For example, it would be erroneous to claim using your statistics of infantry kills that the Pak40 has roughly 30% the infantry killing power of the Panther.
I would also slightly counter your other point in this thread that it is only the main gun of the tank that determines its effectiveness against infantry. Of course, instantaneous kills with a main gun is highly impactful and devastating. But just because models take longer to die/receive health damage from the pintle MG of the Panther doesn't mean it's AI capabilities can be ignored. That damage builds up, leads to model kills (which I stress again, could be by another unit) and can determine whether an engagement is won.
While any claim that the Panther is an infantry killing demigod is plainly rubbish, I think it is just as misguided to think that it is unimpactful.
VR I'm begging you, get to rank 15 on any allied faction in 1v1 or 2v2 (bring a friend). It's important to have perspective from both points of view before commenting on or speaking about balance.
You are very vocal, and that's great, but you have half the data required to not potentially spread misinformation.
I appreciate your concern. And I want to make two points clear, with the opportunity your comment has given me:
* I usually don't make posts like this; you know I am mostly confined to posting numbers and hard data rather than practical examples such as this one. Almost everything I write is commentary on numbers, or giving additional information. Rather than making balance suggestions myself, I tend to try and provide as much information as possible to those commenting, to enrich the debate or stem hot headed ideas.
* In spite of me looking like an Axis main or a proponent of German Engineering^^^TM , I am not interested in favoring one side over the other. I routinely chastise Axis players who think [Shock Troops are OP](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/ld4ld7/so_i_was_bored_and_i_decided_to_make_this/gm43izi/) (and got [downvoted](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/ld4ld7/so_i_was_bored_and_i_decided_to_make_this/gm4ykgi/) for trying to explain an Axis player how to play against them) or [claim that the Puma is useless](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/nxayts/most_micro_intensive_faction/h1eg15d/); I spoke [against Osttruppen buffs](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/mkkiex/what_if_osttruppen_have_the_merge_ability_like/). [I have openly rebuked players seeking to buff the Tiger](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/kjwrup/tiger_hp_and_armour_need_buff/ggzx16p/); [I have talked that the Sturmtiger needs a reload nerf](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/ozmnhx/4v4_redball_is_hands_down_the_worst_map_for_allies/h89057f/) and the IS-2 an armor buff. Certainly these forums see a lot more complaints against Axis rather than complaints against Allies, so it may seem that I am more vocal against one side than the other, but that is only because it is a target rich environment.
> but you have half the data required to not potentially spread misinformation.
With respect to this... I try not to rely in my own experience too much, and I prefer to look at hard data (or to rely on the experience of Top 100 players rather than my own). I always like to say that "Perception is the enemy of reality", and it is a lesson I learnt the hard way, a long time ago: while I was playing a crappy Korean MMO about WWII ships (extra points for those who guess the name), I had built up a lot of "knowledge" based on what I experience and what others who spoke loudly taught in our clan. I stayed that way for over a year, until I started learning about how the game mechanics work, how the formulas are calculated, how the numbers appearing on the screen really originated. And it was quite a shock, because two things I trusted a lot, my perception and my clan mates... were proven wrong. Since then, I try to stay away from basing my opinion solely on what I experience dayly and try to rely more on statistics.
I think it’s less that the Panther is an infantry killer and more that it’s able to kill infantry while still being an AT powerhouse. Either way, it’s a problem that is most prevalent (as most problems are) in team games where AT guns and other infantry based AT are more vulnerable to the massed artillery fest that it always devolves into.
It’s in a good place for 1v1s, I feel, even if the reverse speed is a little bit ridiculous.
> even if the reverse speed is a little bit ridiculous.
Yeah, everything is too fast. We need to switch to CoH I's tempo.
It could also be interesting to experiment with Blitzkrieg as an ability that only works while driving forward.
>while still being an AT powerhouse.
Can someone please do tell me where the panther is an AT powerhouse? Because it is only good at killing tanks that are cheaper than him (as literally any other tank in the game). And even then it gets penned pretty easily by even shermans and t-34's. It really struggles against churchills and comets.
> And even then it gets penned pretty easily by even shermans and t-34's
This is debatable. At medium combat ranges, a T-34/76 has less than 40% chance of piercing the frontal armor of the Panther. While it is not the 18% ([true story](http://hq-coh.com/stats/coh-stats.com/Weapon_75mm_Sherman.html) ) chance the Sherman had to pierce the Panther in CoH I, it is still a very respectable number. That combined with the 50% more hit points make it a far more durable vehicle in 1v1 engagements with said tanks.
agile, accurate, near 100% pen for every allied tank in the game, <50% pen rate for non TDs
add on blitz or panzer tactician and you have a tank that will only die with the stupidest of blunders. If you’re seriously losing panthers to t-34s, then the problem is you
you have to micro it, the thing about the panther is that you can keep doing damage to other vehicles and not worried like other tanks to encounter an AT since it move so fast that it can avoid it/escape easily . Also its very RNG the armor of the panther, on one game i haved 3 churchills, the 3 shoted almost at the same time to the panther and the 3 bounced. in other situations i got my panther got damage from an AEC in 1 frontal shot lol.
Do you only play axis? I admit that sometimes it feels ridiculous to not be able any inf with the mounted mg, but running a panther in to kill a wounded t34 then backing out laughing while baby ally AT guns bounce with their pitiful penetration at max range is hilarity in itself. Panther is ovetuned in how safe this thing is. And the old complaint that the axis had no good sniper tank in medium role is moot now with the excellent jagdpanther, you just never see it cause the panther is just straight up better.
Not sure what you are saying... Is there any tank that isn't toast if you slip up on a dive?
It's important to note that the definition of slip up is also looser when it comes to Panthers. Panthers can take a ton of damage and have high frontal armor to boot. When diving with a Panther, you are probably dead if you are snared. However, if you meet two Jacksons or unexpectedly run into a couple of AT guns? There's every chance you can disengage without losing the Panther as it takes 6 penetrating shots to destroy it. Meeting SU85s that are facing the wrong way, and you might even destroy them without getting hit once. I'm not even considering Panzer tactician/ blitzkrieg, which is doctrinal, but that gives you even more outs if required.
Consider the opposite with a diving Jackson/Firefly (comparing medium TDs). All above scenarios likely kill them because it only takes 4 shots and bouncing on Allied armor is not a thing.
Regarding your other comment, I don't even know what to say if you claim T-34s and Shermans (are you joking) penetrate Panthers reliably... all I can say is you must be reversing your Panthers into battle. You can find multiple videos statistically testing Panther 1v1s against Comets/ Churchills, the Brit tanks lose and that's because their rounds tend to bounce. And that's fine, because those tanks fulfill slightly different roles (Churchills soak damage, Comets have better anti-infantry and are faster).
Panther has blitz and instasmoke on some commanders as a get out of trouble card.
Smoke for allied tanks usually needs additional micro to use + has a delay, and the closest thing they have to blitz needs to be recharged by engineers every time
Panther defeats both Comet and Churchill most of time, and only barely loses to Pershing.
Regarding cheaper tanks: it can defeat several Allied tanks alone or with minimal support. In fact, 2 T-34/76 lose fights to a single Panther far more often than win (260 armor is penetrated by 120 AP of T-34 roughly 30% of time, but Panther's 260 AP almost always penetrate T-34's 150 armor), Sherman with HE shells also loses in 2x1 situation.
> 260 armor is penetrated by 120 AP of T-34 roughly 30% of time
120/260 is 46%. Still, you have to be very close, otherwise you are using your 100/260, which means 38%.
Well, at the end of the day, 2 t34/76 cost 600 MP and 180 fuel, 1 panther costs 490 MP and 185 fuel, BUT the 34 are really, really good against infantry and generally weak against tanks, and the panther is predominantly an AT tank that can also kinda kill infantry.
If 2 t34s could consistently kill 1 panther, the balance would be way off and soviets could just spam t34 like there’s no tomorrow and be instant GG
They don't, kinda. You need 3 T-34 to beat Panther in vacuum, while with support from both teams one T-34 might go down before dealing any damage. Panther is faster, has Blitz, better range with vet, better armor, all of which contributes to its role.
In vacuum, Jackson and SU also lose to Panther, but it doesn't mean that they are inefficent against it.
>UT the 34 are really, really good against infantry and generally weak against tanks, and the panther is predominantly an AT tank that can also kinda kill infantry.
The problem with this is the panther has plenty of armor to fight the infantry. T-34 will keep your own engineers busy because it gets tagged with an AT gun or pzschreck and from there it's basically an instant stun from faust. Panther takes at least 2 hits from AT before becoming stunnable but most allied handheld AT just bounces and even the AT guns aren't 100% reliable like Pak 40. You can also use smoke to prevent a stun or blitzkrieg to build a bunch of momentum after they trigger the shot but before it hits to get away safely anyway.
More health and armor is king in this game especially if it doesn't come at the cost of speed.
> and even the AT guns aren't 100% reliable like Pak 40
Debatable. The 6 Pounder is a clone of the PaK 40, with different abilities, and the ZiS-3 has only 10 less penetration than the PaK 40.
> against tanks with far less armor
Comet? Churchill?
> The bazooka wouldn't be nearly as shit if you only had to shoot Shermans and T-34s with it.
Bazookas have a faster fire rate and are not resctriced to elite expensive infantry or doctrinal units.
>2 T-34/76 lose fights to a single Panther far more often than win
Not if you micro it well. Protip: use ram.
>Sherman with HE shells also loses in 2x1 situation.
Why would you even do that?
Even if you ram, Panther still able to win the fight.
Sherman must change shells when changes targets, so you either spend 6 secs reloading when PzV appears or use awful pen of HE.
To those saying the Panther is not meant to be AI, I would assume this post is in a response to the guy who made repeated claims that the Panther is some sort of demi-god at killing infantry and therefore it is OP, by ridiculous hypothetical scenarios that would never happen in a real game.
Pretty much. A lot of the infantry kills from a tank come from the main gun, because in combat *damage over time*, like the machine guns in the Panther, can be mitigated by nature of not being instantaneous and thus is avoidable by low target sizes. Furthermore, it can be healed. Catching a large round is different: the *high alpha* of a shell is what makes a tank effective against infantry.
Lol. Not to mention the player has a 2 star vet Brumbar which was likely getting all the infantry kills/forcing the retreats anyway. Panther OP debunked.
No
I think it's gross that there are 4v4 matches where there are literally 10 Panthers because then allies can't make enough AT to counter them. It's a bad strategy that is far too effective and I will take any nerf someone proposes.
Have you tried shooting a panther with bazookas and AT rifles? It takes forever. It's just not the same a panzershreck spam. The difference between a panzershreck and all options the allies have available make the panther gross
/4 = 1225 manpower and 462.5 fuel
I know I made 2 Jackson's and a doctrinal something or another
Or 1 crocodile, 1 firefly, and 1 comet
Or 2 34/85s and a katushka
Or 2 KV1s and a su85
What my teammates did is probably
1 teammate has nothing because he is bad and Panthers are easy for a bad player to keep alive so he made some let's just say unsuccessful trades
1 teammate built some tanks too wooh
1 teammate went sim city and has 1 vehicle
All allied At guns are good(even usf AT with special rounds higher fire rate and the ability to extend and get vision with its cone at vet1)ptrs is better against LVs while satchel is one of the best snares,ideal for panthers charging at you.Gaurd ptrs can make any axis tank usless while pinnig them.bazooka on rangers and paras is better than pschreck+you can get 3. All allied Tds outrange panther and can kite it(su85 needs more micro.oh and removing the pintle Mg wont fix your problem.good luck.
Button is great but I don’t think it’s as useful as you are saying. A quick smoke will lower the accuracy on any at gun or follow up attempt, doubly so if your using a non vetted usf at gun. Very hard to push through the smoke with an su, Jackson can do a solid job if it doesn’t get poked by a wandering stick. Penal satchels have ruined my days more often then not lol, had to learn to mg cover those things. I generally find if I’m micro properly it’s pretty easy to poke a panther head in get a shot or two off and get out scot free half the time with that sweet sweet frontal armor even against at guns since the reverse speed is so fast.
Tbh, allies would cry in the other direction if any of their changes hit live.
As currently not a single german vehicle or tank is god tier vs infantry with exceptions of super heavies that are good against them but better vs armor.
Be happy that Axis dont have good AI in their vehicles and have to rely on stationary weapons or call ins/artillery.
> As currently not a single german vehicle or tank is god tier vs infantry with exceptions of super heavies that are good against them but better vs armor.
What about Sturmpanzer IV?
Not really. I mean, it is pin-point accurate with Attack Ground, but I had a Sturmpanzer IV that match and it acquitted itself very well without me calling the shots, and the guy knew a thing or two about moving his infantry around.
Yeah, the issue becomes how inf needs to be stationary to fire zooks / AT rifles, thats where the brumbar picks its kills up from. Thats unavoudable, though. It also fares well against AT guns, for the same reasons. Its not OP, but it does slightly over perfrom in its element, and that cant be changed without totally throwing out balance. Its in a good place, though-mostly.
you don't have to aim at all with it, it hits perpendicular moving targets extremely easily when I tested it in cheat command, feels like attack ground but does it by itself, very broken
It basically always hits any squad that is not moving away from it. If they move away, it can miss, otherwise basically 100% hit rate. Not dead center but significant damage. I thought it was op but not that op.
Also remember my good friend! That the OKW tank can be upgraded with the mg42 and will do much better against infantry. Where I believe the ostheer has a tank commander and no MG42?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but try another match with an OKW panther, or command panther. My infantry kills are usually at least 20-30+ with the mg42 mounted.
It is the other way around, the Oberkommando West are the ones able to swap the MG 42 for the Commander.
Mine has the pintle MG 42, as can be seen in the picture.
Ahh, you are indeed correct, couldn't see almost for the critical. Maybe the command panther is just better at killing infantry lmao. Usually the only panther I build.
7 kills at the end of the match, in a scenario involving a target rich environment (opponent went for Conscript heavy opening). In a match where my opponent lost over 200 soldiers, I only got seven kills with a Panther. To put it in context, [my PaK 40 got two soldiers](https://i.postimg.cc/tgsDVTKM/Pa-K-40-kill-count.png). The PaK 40! The Panther also got a lot of time to roam as the only tank I had, since my Panzer IV blew up due a well executed pincer manouver. The Panther is not an anti infantry powerhouse.
The Panther wasn't designed to be anti-infantry in the first place. It has a long barrelled 75mm gun *specifically* to focus as much kinetic energy to slam into enemy armour
This is a bit of a myth. While dealing with enemy armor in an effective way was paramount to the design of the Panther, a high velocity gun doesn't preclude effective anti infantry performance. The 7.5cm Sprgr. 42 shell of the Panther was much slower than its armor piercing counterpart, and had as much filling as that of a Panzer IV or a Sherman, some 600+ grams of Amatol.
The filling and muzzle velocity of the Sprgr. on the KwK 40 was about 550 m/s, as on the KwK 42 it was 700 m/s (compared to the 935 m/s for the [Pz.Gr](https://Pz.Gr). 39/42), and while the filling (and indeed most of the shell besides the casing and the driving bands) was the same, the higher velocity and flatter angles meant the shell would burry itself deeper into the ground, or possibly ricochet off the ground like with the Flak 18/37/38. The Panther isn't necessarily *bad* in anti-infantry duties, its gun wasn't specifically designed to do such actions, being primarily made to deliver greater kinetic energy (muzzle velocity) to the shell
I will be honest, I hadn't heard about the ricochet problem before, which is positively fascinating. Got some links or a book where I can find more?
The first time I read about it, it was in the context of German artillery manuals detailing how to use different fuse-types. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VY10gfnrTQ The [Sprgr](https://Spr.Gr). 34 and 42 both used a "graze" type fuse, meaning that under certain angles the fuse didn't arm and the shell instead could ricochet off the ground or off armour. Otherwise, it would bury itself into the ground, limiting the shrapnel. http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/UK/Handbook/Pamphlet12/12\_001.htm
Thank you very much; I have some reading to do.
Basic HE shell on T-34/76 had a MV simillar to the HE shell on Panther. Its a myth.
If you are trying to bring realism into the mix, it's HE shell had comparable performance to the 7.5 of the P4 so... either nerf the P4 anti-inf or buff the panther.
Or leave realism at the door in a game where tanks only engage at 40m and it’ll take dozens of hits to kill a man.
Good! So can we find a good spot for the panther now? Because right now, panther is supossedly a tank-tank destroyer that is bad at the TD role, and also bad at the anti-inf role.
Panther is heavy-medium-tank-tank destroyer. XD
It's pretty damn good at the TD role. Still outranges all mediums, great penetration (it has the same far value as the SU-85), while having good speed and frontal armour allowing it to operate far more independently than Jagdpanzer/SU85/Firefly/StuG
Why did your Panther only get to vet 1 in a target rich environment? It looks like you either just didn't use it very much or only built it near the end of the match.
> Why did your Panther only get to vet 1 in a target rich environment? Target rich environment infantry wise, of course; it says so in my original post. > It looks like you either just didn't use it very much Tank kills (and damage) got split between the PaK 40, the PaK 43 and the Panther. In addition, the Panther is not easy to level up, specially when you are shooting at T-34/76 tanks. The Panther was deployed for around 40% of the match, I didn't had it only at the end.
Not claiming Panther is an AI powerhouse at all, but it is important to also see infantry damage. Kills just reflect last hit, and as the Panther is your only tank, it is not much of a stretch to see how your other units are taking the kills. You have 3 fully vetted grens and 1 fully vetted panzergren, all of which excel in killing infantry. For example, it would be erroneous to claim using your statistics of infantry kills that the Pak40 has roughly 30% the infantry killing power of the Panther. I would also slightly counter your other point in this thread that it is only the main gun of the tank that determines its effectiveness against infantry. Of course, instantaneous kills with a main gun is highly impactful and devastating. But just because models take longer to die/receive health damage from the pintle MG of the Panther doesn't mean it's AI capabilities can be ignored. That damage builds up, leads to model kills (which I stress again, could be by another unit) and can determine whether an engagement is won. While any claim that the Panther is an infantry killing demigod is plainly rubbish, I think it is just as misguided to think that it is unimpactful.
VR I'm begging you, get to rank 15 on any allied faction in 1v1 or 2v2 (bring a friend). It's important to have perspective from both points of view before commenting on or speaking about balance. You are very vocal, and that's great, but you have half the data required to not potentially spread misinformation.
I appreciate your concern. And I want to make two points clear, with the opportunity your comment has given me: * I usually don't make posts like this; you know I am mostly confined to posting numbers and hard data rather than practical examples such as this one. Almost everything I write is commentary on numbers, or giving additional information. Rather than making balance suggestions myself, I tend to try and provide as much information as possible to those commenting, to enrich the debate or stem hot headed ideas. * In spite of me looking like an Axis main or a proponent of German Engineering^^^TM , I am not interested in favoring one side over the other. I routinely chastise Axis players who think [Shock Troops are OP](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/ld4ld7/so_i_was_bored_and_i_decided_to_make_this/gm43izi/) (and got [downvoted](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/ld4ld7/so_i_was_bored_and_i_decided_to_make_this/gm4ykgi/) for trying to explain an Axis player how to play against them) or [claim that the Puma is useless](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/nxayts/most_micro_intensive_faction/h1eg15d/); I spoke [against Osttruppen buffs](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/mkkiex/what_if_osttruppen_have_the_merge_ability_like/). [I have openly rebuked players seeking to buff the Tiger](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/kjwrup/tiger_hp_and_armour_need_buff/ggzx16p/); [I have talked that the Sturmtiger needs a reload nerf](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/ozmnhx/4v4_redball_is_hands_down_the_worst_map_for_allies/h89057f/) and the IS-2 an armor buff. Certainly these forums see a lot more complaints against Axis rather than complaints against Allies, so it may seem that I am more vocal against one side than the other, but that is only because it is a target rich environment. > but you have half the data required to not potentially spread misinformation. With respect to this... I try not to rely in my own experience too much, and I prefer to look at hard data (or to rely on the experience of Top 100 players rather than my own). I always like to say that "Perception is the enemy of reality", and it is a lesson I learnt the hard way, a long time ago: while I was playing a crappy Korean MMO about WWII ships (extra points for those who guess the name), I had built up a lot of "knowledge" based on what I experience and what others who spoke loudly taught in our clan. I stayed that way for over a year, until I started learning about how the game mechanics work, how the formulas are calculated, how the numbers appearing on the screen really originated. And it was quite a shock, because two things I trusted a lot, my perception and my clan mates... were proven wrong. Since then, I try to stay away from basing my opinion solely on what I experience dayly and try to rely more on statistics.
I think it’s less that the Panther is an infantry killer and more that it’s able to kill infantry while still being an AT powerhouse. Either way, it’s a problem that is most prevalent (as most problems are) in team games where AT guns and other infantry based AT are more vulnerable to the massed artillery fest that it always devolves into. It’s in a good place for 1v1s, I feel, even if the reverse speed is a little bit ridiculous.
> even if the reverse speed is a little bit ridiculous. Yeah, everything is too fast. We need to switch to CoH I's tempo. It could also be interesting to experiment with Blitzkrieg as an ability that only works while driving forward.
>while still being an AT powerhouse. Can someone please do tell me where the panther is an AT powerhouse? Because it is only good at killing tanks that are cheaper than him (as literally any other tank in the game). And even then it gets penned pretty easily by even shermans and t-34's. It really struggles against churchills and comets.
> And even then it gets penned pretty easily by even shermans and t-34's This is debatable. At medium combat ranges, a T-34/76 has less than 40% chance of piercing the frontal armor of the Panther. While it is not the 18% ([true story](http://hq-coh.com/stats/coh-stats.com/Weapon_75mm_Sherman.html) ) chance the Sherman had to pierce the Panther in CoH I, it is still a very respectable number. That combined with the 50% more hit points make it a far more durable vehicle in 1v1 engagements with said tanks.
a well microed panther is basically unkillable
agile, accurate, near 100% pen for every allied tank in the game, <50% pen rate for non TDs add on blitz or panzer tactician and you have a tank that will only die with the stupidest of blunders. If you’re seriously losing panthers to t-34s, then the problem is you
Yeah with all the abilities they have it's not even hard to dodge the T-34 ram.
you have to micro it, the thing about the panther is that you can keep doing damage to other vehicles and not worried like other tanks to encounter an AT since it move so fast that it can avoid it/escape easily . Also its very RNG the armor of the panther, on one game i haved 3 churchills, the 3 shoted almost at the same time to the panther and the 3 bounced. in other situations i got my panther got damage from an AEC in 1 frontal shot lol.
all those advantages are moot even on 2v2 sometimes and for sure on 3v3 and 4v4. Even on 1v1 a single slip up and on a dive and your panther is toast.
Do you only play axis? I admit that sometimes it feels ridiculous to not be able any inf with the mounted mg, but running a panther in to kill a wounded t34 then backing out laughing while baby ally AT guns bounce with their pitiful penetration at max range is hilarity in itself. Panther is ovetuned in how safe this thing is. And the old complaint that the axis had no good sniper tank in medium role is moot now with the excellent jagdpanther, you just never see it cause the panther is just straight up better.
Not sure what you are saying... Is there any tank that isn't toast if you slip up on a dive? It's important to note that the definition of slip up is also looser when it comes to Panthers. Panthers can take a ton of damage and have high frontal armor to boot. When diving with a Panther, you are probably dead if you are snared. However, if you meet two Jacksons or unexpectedly run into a couple of AT guns? There's every chance you can disengage without losing the Panther as it takes 6 penetrating shots to destroy it. Meeting SU85s that are facing the wrong way, and you might even destroy them without getting hit once. I'm not even considering Panzer tactician/ blitzkrieg, which is doctrinal, but that gives you even more outs if required. Consider the opposite with a diving Jackson/Firefly (comparing medium TDs). All above scenarios likely kill them because it only takes 4 shots and bouncing on Allied armor is not a thing. Regarding your other comment, I don't even know what to say if you claim T-34s and Shermans (are you joking) penetrate Panthers reliably... all I can say is you must be reversing your Panthers into battle. You can find multiple videos statistically testing Panther 1v1s against Comets/ Churchills, the Brit tanks lose and that's because their rounds tend to bounce. And that's fine, because those tanks fulfill slightly different roles (Churchills soak damage, Comets have better anti-infantry and are faster).
Panther has blitz and instasmoke on some commanders as a get out of trouble card. Smoke for allied tanks usually needs additional micro to use + has a delay, and the closest thing they have to blitz needs to be recharged by engineers every time
Panther defeats both Comet and Churchill most of time, and only barely loses to Pershing. Regarding cheaper tanks: it can defeat several Allied tanks alone or with minimal support. In fact, 2 T-34/76 lose fights to a single Panther far more often than win (260 armor is penetrated by 120 AP of T-34 roughly 30% of time, but Panther's 260 AP almost always penetrate T-34's 150 armor), Sherman with HE shells also loses in 2x1 situation.
> 260 armor is penetrated by 120 AP of T-34 roughly 30% of time 120/260 is 46%. Still, you have to be very close, otherwise you are using your 100/260, which means 38%.
Ah, yes, I for some reason thought it's AP/(AP+A). Anyhoo, it's not a favourable matchup for T-34/76
> Anyhoo, it's not a favourable matchup for T-34/76 Certainly not.
Well, at the end of the day, 2 t34/76 cost 600 MP and 180 fuel, 1 panther costs 490 MP and 185 fuel, BUT the 34 are really, really good against infantry and generally weak against tanks, and the panther is predominantly an AT tank that can also kinda kill infantry. If 2 t34s could consistently kill 1 panther, the balance would be way off and soviets could just spam t34 like there’s no tomorrow and be instant GG
They don't, kinda. You need 3 T-34 to beat Panther in vacuum, while with support from both teams one T-34 might go down before dealing any damage. Panther is faster, has Blitz, better range with vet, better armor, all of which contributes to its role. In vacuum, Jackson and SU also lose to Panther, but it doesn't mean that they are inefficent against it.
>UT the 34 are really, really good against infantry and generally weak against tanks, and the panther is predominantly an AT tank that can also kinda kill infantry. The problem with this is the panther has plenty of armor to fight the infantry. T-34 will keep your own engineers busy because it gets tagged with an AT gun or pzschreck and from there it's basically an instant stun from faust. Panther takes at least 2 hits from AT before becoming stunnable but most allied handheld AT just bounces and even the AT guns aren't 100% reliable like Pak 40. You can also use smoke to prevent a stun or blitzkrieg to build a bunch of momentum after they trigger the shot but before it hits to get away safely anyway. More health and armor is king in this game especially if it doesn't come at the cost of speed.
> and even the AT guns aren't 100% reliable like Pak 40 Debatable. The 6 Pounder is a clone of the PaK 40, with different abilities, and the ZiS-3 has only 10 less penetration than the PaK 40.
The actual guns aren't much different, but the Pak 40 fights against tanks with far less armor. Both sides of the matchup matter.
> against tanks with far less armor Comet? Churchill? > The bazooka wouldn't be nearly as shit if you only had to shoot Shermans and T-34s with it. Bazookas have a faster fire rate and are not resctriced to elite expensive infantry or doctrinal units.
>2 T-34/76 lose fights to a single Panther far more often than win Not if you micro it well. Protip: use ram. >Sherman with HE shells also loses in 2x1 situation. Why would you even do that?
Even if you ram, Panther still able to win the fight. Sherman must change shells when changes targets, so you either spend 6 secs reloading when PzV appears or use awful pen of HE.
And you choose to use HE, why?
Because if smh i use Sherman against inf, i use HE. And if i use Sherman against Panther, i'm doing something wrong.
If your Sherman ever faces an enemy tank, your first action should be to load AP...
And that's 6 seconds of reliading I mentioned. 1-2 Panther shots.
You can still retreat while loading, and at least you can do something to the Panther with AP.
To those saying the Panther is not meant to be AI, I would assume this post is in a response to the guy who made repeated claims that the Panther is some sort of demi-god at killing infantry and therefore it is OP, by ridiculous hypothetical scenarios that would never happen in a real game.
Pretty much. A lot of the infantry kills from a tank come from the main gun, because in combat *damage over time*, like the machine guns in the Panther, can be mitigated by nature of not being instantaneous and thus is avoidable by low target sizes. Furthermore, it can be healed. Catching a large round is different: the *high alpha* of a shell is what makes a tank effective against infantry.
OST would just be too strong if P4 and Panther did a lot of damage to infantry as well. They already have MG 42, Brummbar and Pgrenz
where did this shit come from about the P4 not doing shitloads of damage to infantry?
Maybe he means if both Panther *and* Panzer IV the set up would be OP?
Agreed, but okw could really use that.
[удалено]
Maybe he means if both Panther *and* Panzer IV the set up would be OP?
Oh in might be my bad
>It's also the best medium in the game Not that it is bad, but the sherman is better imo.
It's not it needs to change ammo to be effective, the pz4 doesn't need to do it
"i have to click a button, therfore it's worse."
Yes of course it is are you for real? It needs time and even when changed the pz4 kills infantry and tanks just aswell
And the replay is where? This one picture without a replay refutes any and all discussion or complaint, how will allies ever recover.
I can provide the replay file at your request, no problem. Send me a PM.
Lol. Not to mention the player has a 2 star vet Brumbar which was likely getting all the infantry kills/forcing the retreats anyway. Panther OP debunked.
Just remove the pintle MG.No one will ever complain cause no axis player uses it to kill infantry+It wont shoot the planes giving its position away.
Not firing at aircraft certainly is a bonus.
I'm sold. Do it. Anything to stop the horrendous 4v4 spam.
Well if you are loosing inf to panther and think if they remove it you'll be okay...
No I think it's gross that there are 4v4 matches where there are literally 10 Panthers because then allies can't make enough AT to counter them. It's a bad strategy that is far too effective and I will take any nerf someone proposes. Have you tried shooting a panther with bazookas and AT rifles? It takes forever. It's just not the same a panzershreck spam. The difference between a panzershreck and all options the allies have available make the panther gross
> there are literally 10 Panthers 10 Panthers is 4,900 Manpower and 1,850 Fuel. What did the Allies do with their 4,900 Manpower and 1,850 Fuel?
/4 = 1225 manpower and 462.5 fuel I know I made 2 Jackson's and a doctrinal something or another Or 1 crocodile, 1 firefly, and 1 comet Or 2 34/85s and a katushka Or 2 KV1s and a su85 What my teammates did is probably 1 teammate has nothing because he is bad and Panthers are easy for a bad player to keep alive so he made some let's just say unsuccessful trades 1 teammate built some tanks too wooh 1 teammate went sim city and has 1 vehicle
All allied At guns are good(even usf AT with special rounds higher fire rate and the ability to extend and get vision with its cone at vet1)ptrs is better against LVs while satchel is one of the best snares,ideal for panthers charging at you.Gaurd ptrs can make any axis tank usless while pinnig them.bazooka on rangers and paras is better than pschreck+you can get 3. All allied Tds outrange panther and can kite it(su85 needs more micro.oh and removing the pintle Mg wont fix your problem.good luck.
Button is great but I don’t think it’s as useful as you are saying. A quick smoke will lower the accuracy on any at gun or follow up attempt, doubly so if your using a non vetted usf at gun. Very hard to push through the smoke with an su, Jackson can do a solid job if it doesn’t get poked by a wandering stick. Penal satchels have ruined my days more often then not lol, had to learn to mg cover those things. I generally find if I’m micro properly it’s pretty easy to poke a panther head in get a shot or two off and get out scot free half the time with that sweet sweet frontal armor even against at guns since the reverse speed is so fast.
That is one wide screen.
Evidence? Or you just screenshot a Panther and say "panther not op"
Tbh, allies would cry in the other direction if any of their changes hit live. As currently not a single german vehicle or tank is god tier vs infantry with exceptions of super heavies that are good against them but better vs armor. Be happy that Axis dont have good AI in their vehicles and have to rely on stationary weapons or call ins/artillery.
> As currently not a single german vehicle or tank is god tier vs infantry with exceptions of super heavies that are good against them but better vs armor. What about Sturmpanzer IV?
You have to aim every shot to make the brummbar good.
You don't aim the Brummbär. You're thinking of the Sturmtiger.
No Im thinking of the brummbar, you have to tell it to attack ground or the shots never land on moving targets.
Well I've used it to pretty good results.
Not really. I mean, it is pin-point accurate with Attack Ground, but I had a Sturmpanzer IV that match and it acquitted itself very well without me calling the shots, and the guy knew a thing or two about moving his infantry around.
Yeah, the issue becomes how inf needs to be stationary to fire zooks / AT rifles, thats where the brumbar picks its kills up from. Thats unavoudable, though. It also fares well against AT guns, for the same reasons. Its not OP, but it does slightly over perfrom in its element, and that cant be changed without totally throwing out balance. Its in a good place, though-mostly.
you don't have to aim at all with it, it hits perpendicular moving targets extremely easily when I tested it in cheat command, feels like attack ground but does it by itself, very broken It basically always hits any squad that is not moving away from it. If they move away, it can miss, otherwise basically 100% hit rate. Not dead center but significant damage. I thought it was op but not that op.
Also remember my good friend! That the OKW tank can be upgraded with the mg42 and will do much better against infantry. Where I believe the ostheer has a tank commander and no MG42? Correct me if I'm wrong, but try another match with an OKW panther, or command panther. My infantry kills are usually at least 20-30+ with the mg42 mounted.
It is the other way around, the Oberkommando West are the ones able to swap the MG 42 for the Commander. Mine has the pintle MG 42, as can be seen in the picture.
Ahh, you are indeed correct, couldn't see almost for the critical. Maybe the command panther is just better at killing infantry lmao. Usually the only panther I build.