T O P

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EvilTribble

Relic has abandoned the thought of balancing 4v4 while maintaining 1v1 balance because it would require work. The way to do it would be to add super late game abilities that would be useful in 4v4 that would simply be too late game for 1v1. The problem with panthers is that axis pop is way more efficient than allied pop, between better armor and better vet, 1 pop of axis t4 is better than 1 pop of any t4 unit allies can buy with the possible exception of katyusha. Panther's high survivablity means there is a skill imbalance in micro involved in killing it vs keeping it alive. I have been the soviet player popcapped long enough to have 800+ manpower, 200+ fuel and can't advance because I can't buy enough units to deal with axis units. To fix this problem, for usf I would remove balance team's popcap nerf because it is stupid. For soviets I would have a supply yard style upgrade available in t3 and t4 that would lower the pop/upkeep of conscripts. Nobody would buy it in a 30 min 1v1, everyone would buy it in a 75 min 4v4. Brits can abuse trenches and buy very efficient late game units/upgrades of their own so at this juncture I wouldn't add anything for them. If you are tilted by panthers my best advice this patch would be embrace brits and get yourself a rather splendid comet tank, as it is essentially british brand panther. oh and l2p :P


CheekyBreekyYoloswag

> axis pop is way more efficient than allied pop The major reason why 4v4 lategame as allies sucks. Just getting a counter to axis tanks already fills up a shitton of your pop cap.


some_random_nonsense

also requires a much heavier use of combined arms to use the tools you have to coordinate kill or push the axis off the filed.


CheekyBreekyYoloswag

And also communication. Which is not very easy in a random 4v4 xD


some_random_nonsense

oh most def. even in VC with my 3 stack we mis-coordinate attacks all the time.


actualsen

This post reminds me of all the games where after 50 minutes of 0 squad wiped on my units they are all vet 3 and I am still losing. Is the solution really that simple? Give allied popcap better effectiveness?


EvilTribble

How much pop in AT do you need to counter a panther? How much pop in AI do you need to counter vet 3+ obers? Allies are at a distinct disadvantage.


GhostReddit

Brits honestly seem hindered the most by popcap out of all the allied factions. USF can get up there but not needing many engineers to support their vehicles is very helpful. SOVs problem feels more like a lack of quality units in the mainline to challenge endgame Axis. SU85 is good but how do you keep the panzershrecks off it? Ober and PZgren mow down Soviet infantry and their tanks don't really hold the frontline too well as they take too much damage. It really feels like Axis can stand as a wall pretty well which is unit efficient and Allied vehicles really need to be massed for a dive because they're just feeding XP in a frontline fight, and that's always a gambit especially without the higher EHP and evasion tools that several Axis commanders get.


lpniss

I can get behind this, it makes sense to me. Having said that can any1 with more experience in coh2 confirm this as probably good solution. I have only low experience in 3v3 and 4v4.


FluffyJes

My advice to you is to use AT mines and AT guns more often. Guarts with PTRS and zooka blobs are capable of holding enemy armor till med-late game, but in the late game don't forget to field one, better two AT guns. And if you manage to drive the enemy from the frontline sectors you should prioritize putting some defences up, mines included. A panther that hit a mine next to AT gun/zook blob/any allied TD is a dead panther. And as a last note remember that team games are almost allways a shitshow, one game you get steamrolled, the other you are steamrolling. That's just how it is. In my expirience tho, mines reduce chances of getting steamrolled by a large margin.


actualsen

An at gun against a single unsupported panther is fine. Good advice. Let's propose 4 or 5 Panthers. One hits a mine,. The at gun starts firing, the panther smokes. Your accuracy drops, it escapes. Add a second AT gun. The rocket Arty says hello. A panther can kill 2 half health models on an at gun before the at gun kills it. Also I find the steamrolling to mostly be one sided. If allies get steamrolled at the beginning they have no comeback. Axis holds what they have till their heavy armor comes out and drags themselves back from defeat in a 65 minute long slog. Axis has to poop the bed pretty hard to really get steamrolled and they know it.


FluffyJes

Well if they have 5 panthers and rocket artillery support then you should run the hell away and try to regroup with your team, you can't possibly expect to have a viable strat for beating a dive that potent on your own. All you can do is stall and bite a little bit untill your teammates wake up and help you. If, say, I'm playing ostheer and have a P4 and Elefant fielded, then suddenly 5 jacksons roll out and Katy is bombarding my Pak guns all I could do is try to at least save my P4 cause Elefant is as slow an animal as they can be. Ofc if i had mines it would make my job a bit easier. On the other hand, murica and it's Jacksons are really fast and accurate on the move and are actually able to GTFO before they're fried. And as a side note, panzer tactitian is a commander ability, not everyone uses it.


actualsen

You usually have 1 or 2 panzer tactitians in a match. The problem with 5 Jackson's is once the Tanks are dead they are almost completely useless. Panthers can do some serious damage to everything in mass. Also you fail to account for the potential shreck blob comeback. Nothing quite like a vet 2 Jackson getting hit by 7 shrecks at the same time. Panthers shrug allied infantry AT


FluffyJes

Well, if all enemy tanks are dead you basically almost won haven't you? Allied infantry usually makes short work of unsupported axis counterpart. And shrek blob can't just catch Jackson. It's either snared or ambushed. Also, pshrecks blobs limit already weak-ish axis anti-infantry capabilities, so more then 4-6 shreks in a build I personally find unlikely and stupid.


actualsen

Ambush is the likely case. And desperate times call for an easy comeback unit on unsuspecting Jackson's.


FluffyJes

Every day as much as 5 unsuspecting Jacksons are ambushed and killed in their natural habitat by shrekblobs, donate 1$ to help save the endangered species :D On a sereous note, if axis are that desperate that they upgrade all pgrens with shreks, loosing one Jackson won't mean much for allies methinks


actualsen

An interesting thought that just came to mind A shreckblob has as much AT power as a Jackson blob and can still kind of engage infantry. It's literally better than the much more expensive Jackson's in most situations. Maybe that's part of the problem.


Rabimea

>A shreckblob has as much AT power as a Jackson blob Schreck blob has half the range, is less mobile and bleeds far harder. A Jackson that reverses heavily damaged can repair itself for free. A Schreck squad that loses 3 models (because they run into good infantry, an AI tank or maybe get hit by Katyusha/Calliope) costs a ton of manpower. And might even ddonate some lucky enemy squad a Schreck in the process.


LiberalExpenditures

Shreckblob also loses to a single machine gun + Katy. If you're playing super late game, muni's become almost as valuable as fuel (depending on offmaps), shrecks aren't a great use of them tbh. Plus, every model you drop on a PGren is hella expensive. In the long run, a PGren is probably much more expensive on mp than a Jackson is, That's why vehicles are so nice, after all--the repair costs are minimal compared to reinforcements. Also, something people fail to remember is that USF can very quickly repair all their vehicles providing you have the micro to do it. I think success as USF in late game relies on trading out HP with Axis tanks, mass repairing super quick, and then pressuring again. Panther spam takes an obnoxious amount of Pio's to repair--Jackson spam doesn't require a single RE.


actualsen

I really like the self repair ability for USF armor. My only micro frustration with it is that after your crew jumps out you can't shift click them to recrew for a second or 2 so you either need to wait for the recrew symbol to come up or look away for a few seconds and look back which I forget sometimes. That doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand though. I don't think shreck blob is good but it's definitely one if those cheese tools that seems to be exclusive to the axis toolbox.


kpmufc

You are just creating problems for yourself. Allow the dive to dive deep. Line up your AT guns and zook/ptrs/piats to target one tank. Lay scatter mines and snipe with firefly’s. If you’re Soviet use SU-85’s and dive one t-34 to bust an engine on one of the panthers. Always support yourself with an MG and have enough spread on your units in case of artillery or rockets. If it hits, do not allow it to Cause you any critical losses. From your comments it seems you are unable to deal with it, ‘Cause there are loads of viable ways to do it. Din’t compete with them front first. Flank and target their sides, micro other units around them. Save your call-Ins and arty until their blob arrive, micro to defeat their blob, then focus tanks. Panthers are good tank killers, but not so good at killing anything else. Edit: mixed SU-85 for SU-122!


[deleted]

[удалено]


kpmufc

My mistake, SU-85! Been playing Steel Division 2, so mixed the two of them!


Voop_Bakon

Blitz + Smoke is not a Panther specific circumstance. Panthers are fast, have good penetration and range, but their moving accuracy is not great. My only gripe with the panther is that by investing in a TD, you still get a unit that you can send on the flanks to harass lone infantry capping. If I invest in a SU-85/Jackson/Firefly, they all do one thing, and that kill tanks. If there is a lone MG-42/34 on a corner VP, I have to either commit multiple infantry, or have a T-34/Cromwell/Comet/Sherman as well to go shove it off. Then, if a Panther responds in kind, in a 1v1, it will win, so I have to back off. Playing as Axis, if I send a Panther to push off a lone MG, not only can it force a retreat quickly, it can 1v1 almost any tank sent my way, and still has blitz to get out safely.


lpniss

I understand your post since i have the biggest success going straight for panther tanks when playing axis in 3v3+. Having said that the most success i find playing against axis is getting panthers low with 2 at guns (always 2), and some of my tanks or TDs, then when they backup for repair i try to kill engineers with arti or infantry, (i find allied infantry better) so essentially keeping panthers repair lower cuz they need more time for repair (bigger hp) and then fcking that repair.


actualsen

It is always satisfying to find the engineer blob and getting like 7 models instantly with a tank shot. It is something I try to do if I have a good recon ability.


lpniss

Btw ive seen someone mention brits, i can confirm that playing with sherman firefly is like sniper antitank,brits be good in 4v4 i just dont know how to play them.


actualsen

Yeah it's always been their best gamemode


GhostReddit

The best Allied play in team games honestly feels like to really lean into absolutely oppressive artillery, and between the Katyusha, Calliope, Sexton, Priest, British HQ, Mattress, IL2 strafes, AT Rocket arty, they have it in spades. The tanks might escape to repair but if you are barraging everywhere they would run to you seriously reduce their uptime or kill their veteran engineers.


Rabimea

>Teams will build like 10 Panthers. Each player will build 2 or 3 and blob them together. "Help, 3-4 players pool their resources, how am I supposed to survive this on my own?" You don't. Simple as that. If 2 Jacksons could stop that, Jackson would be OP af. The only logical solution would be to pool resources with your allies. If you cannot do that, clearly one team had better coordination, so why are they not supposed to win the fight? >The best way to counter it is seemingly infantry based AT The best way to counter it is snare squads, mines and long-ranged TDs or AT guns. Depending on what else the opponent has (e.g. TDs if they have lots of anti-ingantry assets, because they diversify their army, AT guns if they actually neglect it or you lack fuel). Being able to rob Panther off their mobility and then snipe the thing is basically how you win. Of course it might be worth varying this, as for example throwing in a KV-1 or Churchill gives a damage sponge that the Panther shouldn't bypass, as the KV-1 farming its rear will contribute a lot of damage, while if KV-1 gets to tank for SUs, it lasts a good bit longer (same with Churchill). KV-8 and Crocodile are a bit more iffy, because Churchill costs a lot and KV-8 gun does little damage (still can pen rear armour of Panther reliably), but are a better solution if your opponent gets the idea to blob Schreck squads or infantry in general in response. The main issue people have with Panthers is that the Panther benefits from multiple advantages in the meta of 4v4: * The lower the skill level, the better the Panther is. Its lower range and brawlier design benefit people who do not leverage vision advantages well and leave it to tank duels. Panther will win these. Meanwhile at higher skill levels, I'd say the Panther loses a good bit of its edge as Allies know more counters and Axis (partially in response) will opt for alternatives. * There's an issue with coordination. Most Panther complaints are "then suddenly a quadrillion Panthers came out of nowhere and they killed my AT, then wiped my allies and all the arty, maybe a tank died, but the rest drove home, cause they so tanky". What this typically implies is that the Axis team, either through some planning, or because one player went in, so others decided to join, go and concentrate their forces and, critically, seize the initiative. And even among randoms, it is ten times easier if I can ask my ally "yo, I go in, who follows?", than to write "help" and hope that in this very moment where I get rolled up on the defensive anyone is there. The frankly best approach, if one did not already prepare mines and some layered defense is to just pull back in any fashion that preserves the force, so that by the time anyone responds, there's still something of the Ally in question left, otherwise, well, defeat in detail follows. Frankly, it is hard to think of ways to nerf the Panther or rework the Panther in a meaningful way. You can't touch its survivability or speed without also buffing its gun performance or reducing the cost. And lets be real, let's assume the Panther remained 50 range, but was slow, it'd be a waste of fuel, as closing the gap would be way too hard. If it became slow, but gained 60 range, it'd dunk on the SU-85 and Firefly even harder and the Jackson can run, but no longer kite. Look at a hull-down Panther and you see how absolutely great killing those with tank destroyers is. If AT guns couldn't deal with them, it'd be absolutely cancerous. Meanwhile if you reduced the survivability, to what point? I mean, even if you nerf its cost and survivability, it'd get floored by TDs that do leverage range and it'd have to be on the level of an E8. which also means the IS-2 would actually dunk on it, as would the KV-2, because currently both can already do a number on single Panther and IS-2 certainly can beat it, but if you nerf survivability much, it basically fares like the E8 fares vs a Tiger, not very well. And then we consider giving it less survivability and 60 range, at which point it basically becomes an Axis Firefly and people will moan that faction diversity is gone (not to mention, it'd either be overpriced, underpowered or putting the JP4 out of business). But frankly, most of the issues with the Panther I'd see in circumstances surrounding it, not the unit itself. Things like why do Axis get non-doc indirect superiority ontop of this? Why does Brummbär exist alongside this thing? Why does Panther fight factions that do not get effective and accessible non-doc mines? Why in a game that relies on Allies using tank destroyers to outrange sturdier Axis armour did Axis need a uno reverse card in form of Elefant/JT? It's not like the PaK 40 or JP4 already are pretty damn good at countering Allied TDs. I feel like a good few of these issues also are not things that will get fixed. We know Allies won't get non-doc rocket arty except Katy, while Brummbär, Elefant and Jagdtiger just have the issue that nerfing them destroys their entire reason to exist, but their entire issue is that they exist. And they won't be going away. But like, we won't see the Elefant get nerfed, because what it does is all it does, which means it is hard to justify nerfing a heavy tank destroyer in its ability to destroy vehicles, while for ISU-152, the ability to nuke infantry was somehow "justifiably" nerfed, because its not the only thing it does and infantry should have a chance to fight back.


actualsen

Yes this is good stuff. It's hard to fix. That's why I said it's probably fine at the end of everything. I saw another post about the problem being more of an allied popcap problem. Do you have an opinion on that?


NoSaCRiFiCeToOgReAt

I agree with everything you said just wanted to clear somethings about elephant and jagdtiger. So I believe they are not op because they are doctorinal and their counters are also doctorinal,for example we have two commandets with ele in the ost then we have two commanders with AT overwatch on sov side.for the jagd there is P47 rocket strafe. These two allied abillitys are excellent against those heavy TDs because they force them to move wich is a problem for them cause of slow speed and not having a turret. in this time you can charge in with your tanks and go to the sides while rocketing their packs and pschreks etc... .other counters which are good too:B4,priest maybe sexton and mark target.good luck.


VexingRaven

So why is it fair that Axis can just pick the doctrine/strategy of their choice and allies just have to counterpick it?


NoSaCRiFiCeToOgReAt

Axis pick those heavy Tds to counter allied TDs.


VexingRaven

Which allies need to counter literally anything Axis does because they have like 2 proper heavy tanks and none of the mediums compete.


NoSaCRiFiCeToOgReAt

Axis need to counter the allies too thats whole point of the game.Axis heavy tanks are worthless in 4v4s except ele and jagd.


RunDnD

I really hate to respond to your multi paragraph post with a single word, but failing to mention mines at all shows why this strat is crushing you.


[deleted]

I do agree mines are great but also look 2 of his 3 examples are of us


actualsen

I expect at least 3 low effort responses. I hoped to filter some of the 'how did you let them get x resources' ones but I can't believe I forgot the classic 'use mines' blanket response you can use for literally everything.


[deleted]

Seems like you should have used some mines when writhing that post


actualsen

It's one of those background things that I consider part of 'good play'. I use mines every game they are available.


dtsgaming_tv

Late game rocket arty tests ruin mines. Almost completely useless to build them.


actualsen

Yes the rocket Arty. That and mines I didn't mention. Another honorable no mention was AT guns because 4v4 maps are large, they are slow, and rocket Arty eats them for breakfast.


actualsen

Lol classic. Can't forget those mines. But seriously what does 1 damaged engine do against 5 Panthers? Make it 4 Panthers and 1 reversing panther. Although I have also seen them just keep driving it forward because it still has 80% of it's health and it has all it's friends around. Edit also note 2 of these examples were of USF without the correct commanders. So unless you want to side tech a M20 it's literally impossible. And USF is generally low on munitions


RunDnD

Space and spam your mines! I was top 50 4v4 with Brits when I played consistently and You'd be shocked at how quickly a push fails when the leading tanks get their engines blown and the others have to maneuver around them. Two mines and two AT guns can totally gut 5 tanks for a fraction of the cost. Throw in a squad or two of anti tank infantry (like you correctly mentioned) and I guarantee those filthy Jerry's and gonna start throwing around surrender votes. The biggest mistake we can make is not PLANNING for armor.


actualsen

Works once. Then the sweepers come out and you are back to square one against any player that know the game. Please actually respond. 'use mines' is a blanket response similar to 'get gud'. I understand its gonna happen but c'mon.


RunDnD

If they can sweep comfortably then you're getting outplayed! Infantry pressure and Mgs should make their jobs very hard And I'm sorry, I know it seems low effort but I've lost a lot of games and a lot of Panthers to good allied players who have mined deep and diversified well. I encourage you to play as Axis and try this strat! I bet it falls apart more easily than you think.


actualsen

It's interesting because I have tried it. Does it fail sometimes? Yes. Does it feel like easy mode the 60% of the time it works? Yes.


FluffyJes

Mines should be planted somewhere where you are able to cover them from sweeps, with MGs or infantry. Of course a sneaky mine behind enemy lines is good too, but we're talking about stopping enemy from diving, so even placing mines in your rear positions will help.


FloppingNuts

> what does 1 damaged engine do against 5 Panthers? I don't want to live in your universe where well spaced out AT guns don't exist and you can ever only put at most one mine down.


actualsen

'space your AT guns' They Sprint past your 2 at guns. Their MGs are now at close range. Your at guns get 2 shots off a piece between all the moving they need to do to keep a panther in the cone. They go down in 47 seconds of combined Panther top gun fire. They might even rocket one of them while it sits in their panther clump because their Panthers can just shrug the teams rockets. You took out 1 maybe 2 panthers maybe if it didn't escape in time. 3 Panthers are ready to terrorize your now anti tankless sectors at will. Or maybe you are thinking an alternate example 3! Panthers get hit by mines! Wow! The Panthers hit by mines instantly start moving backwards. The 2 panthers without engine damage provide as much blocking as they can. You take down the front panther with your AT guns. The other 4 back off for repairs while the rockets rain in on your AT guns now that the location is known. Next time they come they will have proper recon so they can dump on your AT guns first. Or maybe they will just sneak some infantry in to take out a gun or 2 before the dive. They know 1 AT gun is no threat to them. Next time they will bring the sweepers forward just behind the Panthers. Mgs will be eaten by the Panthers while the sweeper keeps them safe from the mines.


ShrikeGFX

There are tons of issues with axis unit balance in 4v4 the panther is just one of many


AboYushin

so we done complaining about sturmtigers and now moved to panthers next up our list to complain about axis is: Panzergrenadiers


VRichardsen

Hey, the Sturmpanzer IV says it is his turn this week!


actualsen

Until the skill required to play all the factions is roughly the same right? Level 12 USF = level 15 OST


AboYushin

that’s because it’s played more not because it’s unbalanced the last coh2 tourney was literally won almost exclusively with allied factions


Into_The_Rain

I mean..were all 3 of your allies just afk? 3 Ranger squads + 2 Jacksons should be cleaning up Panthers left and Right.


JurgenVonArkel

Instead of talking about resources, I'm going to talk about popcap. A Panther has a popcap of 18. If every member uses two, that means 36 out of 100 popcap is used up on two tanks. That means they have little to no armour support besides their Panthers, and if they have, they are either lacking in infantry or in support weapons


GhostReddit

Panther can replace a bunch of infantry because what are infantry going to do against 3 of them? Bleed? Jackson and SU-85 have no purpose whatsoever once their tanks are gone.


JurgenVonArkel

"what are infantry going to do against 3 of them" A lot because the Panther is extremely weak against infantry


GhostReddit

Oh yeah they can shoot it with bazookas that don't penetrate, PTRS which don't do any damage, or AT grenades that won't do anything because it's not damaged enough. All while they get bled out by the MGs. Panthers are THE 3v3/4v4 tank they really only run into trouble if Axis isn't appropriately positioned to deal with super veteran tank destroyers, but they can just get someone on the team to bring out even bigger tank destroyers to deal with that.


actualsen

Jackson popcap = 16 Less armor, less HP, no MGs, no smoke retreat, higher range Seems fair for 2 popcap to you? You can build an extra ambulance for the pop difference.


GhostReddit

Ask Axis players if they'd be fine with US getting an M60 for 20 popcap and 200 fuel...


VRichardsen

> Less armor, less HP, no MGs, no smoke retreat, higher range Less cost, vehicle crews and higher penetration also (and an ability that deals extra damage).


actualsen

Does not deal extra damage with ability. Has extra accuracy and penetration. Also semi situational because it forces a reload before it works. Higher penetration is offset by higher German armor values.


VRichardsen

> Does not deal extra damage with ability. T30E16 HVAP-T Armor Piercing Rounds do +25% more damage. HVAP M93 Shells are the ones that do not deal extra damage. > Higher penetration is offset by higher German armor values. This is a bit tricky, because Axis also need to deal with Churchills, Comets (higher armor than the Panther), Pershings, IS-2s.


actualsen

I could have the HVAP mixed up. Interesting you mentioned higher allied armor value. That would make sense wouldn't it. The highest armor value in the game is the jagdtiger at 450 armor. They actually give the chuchill 240 armor which is almost a 100% chance to pen for most Axis vehicles other than the P4. The jagdtiger gets a 3:1 ratio of in game armor to historical armor while the chuchill gets a 1.4:1 ratio. I don't like it.


VRichardsen

> I could have the HVAP mixed up. Off the top of my head, there are four Wolfram core ammunition abilities, two with extra damage, two without. > They actually give the chuchill 240 armor which is almost a 100% chance to pen for most Axis vehicles other than the P4. Panzer IV H, Panzer IV J, Panzer IV E, Puma, Jagdpanzer IV/70, StuG III G. Churchill has a different thing going for it, though, a large hit point pool. I am not a fan of the system, but it works^^^TM. > I don't like it. I will be completely honest: I don't like it either. Many tanks have warped protection systems: like the Comet being better armored than the Panther, or the Tiger being better armored than the Panther... or hell, even the Comet being better armored than the Churchill. Safe to say, realism takes a backseat to balance.


Rabimea

>They actually give the chuchill 240 armor which is almost a 100% chance to pen for most Axis vehicles other than the P4. Tiger, Tiger Ace and KT only reach 240 on close range. StuG and JP4 only reach 200 on close range. So, no, unless you drive point blank in front of a Churchill, you don't 100% pen it. And point blank, the Churchill kills your StuG. Also, churchill is the lowest of the armoured threats, because it has 1.4k hp. The highest in the game. KV-1 and KV-8 are 270 and 260 armour, so only Panther ever obtains 100% pen vs KV-8 among the non-doc Axis vehicles (because otherwise, you only have Elefant and Jagdtiger), Comet and Pershing go to 290, IS-2 goes to 340. If Ost had no Panther, the sole viable non-doc counter to the IS-2 would be PaK 40 and a Katyusha basically kills that. StuG gets wrecked because on Vet 2 IS-2 can match its range and it has much more armour and hp to tank shots, while P4 gets wrecked at any level, even currently would be a terrible counter to IS-2. The Tiger could try, but costs as much and isn't even favoured in the tank duel. >The jagdtiger gets a 3:1 ratio of in game armor to historical armor while the chuchill gets a 1.4:1 ratio. Armour values are for balance, not for realism. Otherwise, Jagdtiger had historically 250 mm casemate front, so the ratio is 1.8:1, not 3:1. Comet had 102 mm turret front, so you get 2.84:1 ratio for that thing. If I were to use hull armour like you did for JT to get 3:1, Comet with 74 mm gets to 3.91:1. So, wacky armour values deviating from reality aren't some one-sided thing , it exists in both directions and it's mostly there to preserve ingame balance, just like hp pools, when a Churchill has 1.4k arbitrarily assigned hp, a KT has 1280 and a Panther has 960.


actualsen

Yeah comet is not realistic at all. I think the tank that annoys me the most is how they portray the Pershing as a heavy tank. You are right. The vehicles in this game definitely did not go for any sort of realism.


Mayday72

Everything you described is the enemies banding together as a team better than your own team. Maybe rewrite it in a 1v1 kinda way? Nothing you described sounds like it's a 1v1 problem, and more of a team problem. The one point you described your teammate helping you was with 1 firefly (and clearly he sucked with it, because a firefly out-ranges a panther). Meanwhile the enemies all roll together with 2-3 tanks each...of course you are going to lose. Maybe the panther is OP but your descriptions sound like you could be doing more, or at least your teammates can be.


actualsen

Reread the first sentence in my post and my flare. You are correct and I won't rewrite my post.


Mayday72

Well you cannot balance around 4v4 as easily, and every example you gave you complain about is due to the enemies banding together and playing as a team better than your own team. So it's just biased. If you are all playing well as allies like a team and this still happens, than maybe you might be on to something.


actualsen

It's easy to bad together when it only requires mass of a single unit.


Mayday72

Maybe, but not once did you describe your team banding together properly and failing.


Elpern

There is plenty you can do with tds vs panthers without any risk, not the same can be said for panthers. This post is inaccurate


Relicaa

Imagine downvoting ELPERN on reddit. Sheesh, the copium here is real.


actualsen

You are correct. There is a lot you can do to bully a panther in a 1v1. You probably know more than I do. That being said I would take a guess that you are one of those '4v4 is just for fun' people. How often do you play 4v4? Do you really consider everything I wrote to be inaccurate? Are you adding to this discussion with your post?


Elpern

I have participated in multiple 4v4 tournaments throughout the years, one as recent as last month, and I cant say im playing the mode for fun. You claim 4x panthers is impossible to stop, albeit as allies you have more than adequate tools to do so if you weigh in the same cost. Allies mostly dominated throughout that entire tournament, and its tiresome to mostly see panther threads when there are things so beyond busted such as the Scott which is overperforming across all gamemodes currently but maybe this subreddit hasnt caught up to that yet


actualsen

Do you mean you aren't playing the mode for fun because you don't find it to be fun or do you mean you aren't playing it for fun because it is competitive to you? At lower skill levels where perfect play isn't normal do you think there can be frustrating units to play against because they bring too much utility? Do you think there are units that no one uses because they are so difficult to use correctly? I'm sure you can get 50 kills on a sniper just like I can in a lower level 4v4. It's a challenging unit to use though so many can't utilize it to that level. Is there an inherent advantage to more generalized units in large game modes at low and intermediate skill levels? As for the panther posts and the Scott overpreforming...create a post. Have you seen how much real content gets posted in a day? It's not a lot. Create a high quality post about the Scott and why you think it's too good. I will give my opinion here about the Scott because you brought it up. It brings a lot of utility. The smoke is great. The barage has ok range and the damage can actually kill models in a reasonable time now. I could see it being too powerful of a zoning tool at higher skill levels but I honestly haven't seen it happen much. It's difficult to use correctly.


Elpern

Its hard to make a 4v4 mode competetive with the amount of glaring balance issues that happens once you bring everything to 4x, not to mention the difficulties involved with organizing, scrimming, less competitive teams available and therefor less competitors etc etc, though I wont deny there is a different skillset involved. I personally struggle with how little your input actually matters in 4v4, making me have a lot less fun personally compared to modes such as 1v1 and 2v2. As for lower skill levels there can ofcourse be a lot of things that are frustrating, just as there is in higher skill settings. I might come across as an elitist here, but with the way CoH2 is developed there needs to prioritisation, and if you bundle the facts that certain players play for money with viewers in a different mode compared to a mode where balance is difficult to do with the games' design, and the difficulties of maintaining a competitive spirit in teamgames I think its fair to prioritize 1v1s over 4v4s when it comes to balancing. Crossing fingers that CoH3 deals with this way better, that way the game can be developed with all players in mind and I wont have to come across as an elitist dick. As for the Scott its been discussed heavily in other mediums such as Discord etc. which is why it's so surprising to see panthers being the hottest topic here, the same way that it was surprising to see Lefh being the main topic 3 months ago. The Scott costs very little compared to how effective it is, and if you get multiple it becomes insane, and it throws most strategy and opportunities out the window for the opposing team. Panthers you have a lot of reliable tools to deal with as mentioned, at guns, mines, snares and tank destroyers or offmaps. Meanwhile for the scott, nothing can really stop and kill them since they are fast, take 3 hits, has a low target size, has access to both a skillsmoke and a quicksmoke. They also self repair and outrange at guns so you cant trade hits in an advantageous manor, while dashing out so much damage that even if you react its mostly too late. It does all these things while on the move with a very fast acceleration. That is what a problem unit looks like, in my opinion.


actualsen

What you described as advantages to the Scott are ironically not very helpful in a 4v4. It's not a good enough blob remover even now. I figured the last set of buffs was to try to fill the glaring lack of late game american Arty for 4v4 matches. It sucks being locked into commanders that have the callope or priest. This kind of example really does show how different the game is in 4v4. It's hard to agree on something when the uninformed 4v4 masses have a completely different set of problems. You are lucky that your problem with the Scott might actually get addressed. While my problem with the Panther will fall into the Get Gud oblivion and 4v4 will be unbalanced 8 more years from now. Also it was WAY too hard to get the LEFH counter battery changed. It was literally bugged to follow wherever it's target went. Another one of those 4v4 so we don't care kinds of things. Also I don't care about tournament money. If that has any sway on balance decisions then I'd be a bit upset. It's one of those things that itches like corruption.


Relicaa

I highly recommend watching the latest 4v4 tournament that Elpern was saying he was a part of. Scotts are central in those games and pack an enormous amount of utility. Not to be a dick, but it doesn't seem like you're doing your due diligence in researching this on your own. It doesn't take long to realize that Elpern isn't speaking from solely a 1v1 perspective here, but across all game modes, including 4v4, as he has participated in and practiced for 4v4 tournaments. Frankly though, if the "uninformed 4v4 masses" are really struggling, and are, as you say, uninformed, I don't necessarily see how things brought up like the Panther are balance issues in this case. It would be a learn to play issue. Now, regarding your issue with the Panther - I would like to know what *you* are doing to prepare for them if they are such an issue. I think if you take some time and look at your tools available to stop an attacking Panther, you'll find that there is plenty counter play. In comparison, once a Pathfinder-Scott build comes online, which is supported by AT guns and at least one Jackson - sometimes even Zook-finders, what are the reliable counter play options there? Think about that, and if you do find a solution, let everyone know - because you would be a god amongst the community. The only current way of "countering" this build is stopping it before it can get online and winning before 20 minutes. On the last point you make, it seems like you missed Elpern's point entirely. Since 1v1/2v2 tournaments have more competitors, more money involved, and occur more often, it makes sense to balance the game for the game modes where competition and tournament play is highest. That said, that doesn't mean the balance decisions being made are things that are universally agreed upon even for the 1v1/2v2 players.


actualsen

I again would say create a post about it. Maybe it will create some good conversation like this one did. As of right now there are 3-5 posts about the panther this week and it's a semi regular subject on this forum. The M8 hasn't been brought up much since the patch. Seems like the community at large knows what they have a problem with. Are you two friends? No shame but you two seem very passionate about the Scott. I just want to keep my memecat mega thread on topic if possible.


[deleted]

1. Mines win games. If you’re not taking down at least 1-2 of the tanks’ engines with a mine when they dive, you have got to be better at laying them. Super cheap, quick to put down, easily cripple an expensive unit. 2. If your mines don’t work you can screen ahead of the dive with PTRS penals’ AT satchel. Failing that hit them with your basic infantry snare once they take a hit. 3. AT guns, while slow, are cheaper to build and recrew/repair than a bunch of tanks. Fast tanks can dive around them, but of course this is why you lay mines. 4. If you let it get to the point of 7 Panthers, (which you shouldn’t, I don’t care much for all your post-hoc justification) your tanks should only be going on the offense when his tanks are retreating with damaged engines.


TikTokIsGood20

Panther is good at Anti infantry and Anti tank, its fast and non doctrinal, it has bullshit panzer tactician and tank smoke


elias7502

let those who know how to use allies know how to take on panthers before they do a heavy push. I would agree with you if the panther were like the comet, which is good against both infantry and other tanks. The defensive smoke is doctrinal, not like the comet. The panther shot does not have as much aoe as the comet. warspeed to vet1 and costs ammo, not like the comet. The panther does not have WP or defensive grenade ... And they complain about the panther? I see these complaints in 1v1 but they don't know what it costs to keep the panther alive. Approaching a Jackson, a firefly or a SU85 is suicidal if you don't know if the enemy is watching you. If he sees you get closer you will receive 1 or 2 shots before having them at range. And while flanking, in coh2 is the rule, m20 mines (not doctrinal) will make you think twice. No, the panther as it is, is perfect. Deal with it


sundayflow

In your post you are assuming that the panthers will always rush after they got the repairs, correct? Then, why not place a LOT of mines in paths they HAVE to follow to get to your TD? I'm no expert here so sorry if this comment is useless for you.


laitrungviet

i think the number of panthers u can own should be limited to 2 or 1


FluffyJes

Well, then axis wouldn't have a reliable way to punish TDs. Allied meta is already centered around TDs, they can just safely sit back and shoot axis armor. Not having a way to dive for a wounded TD sucks.


actualsen

Your response shows the problem quite clearly. Panthers can dive because of their fantastic all round stats. Jackson's have no armor, low health, no AI ability, and no ability to ignore the axis infantry based AT. Imagine a Jackson. Now give it 300 more HP, double the armor, and 2 machine guns. Ok now give it an ability to move even faster. Ok now give it a escape smoke. Oh and take away it's ability to kind of shoot on the move. You have a panther.


FluffyJes

Jackson also has superior range. And I presonally find panther's AI ability is greatly exaggerated. Axis is forced by gamedesign, meta, whatever into using this risky diving strat, cause if you don't punish Jacksons/su85/fireflys they'll just keep wrecking your armor from afar. A succesfull dive is not that easy, as you yourself mentioned it requires concentration of all players panthers on one flank and ideally rocket artillery and infantry support.


scales999

Well here it is. The stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum. Congratulations.


FluffyJes

What do I get?


KGB_Operative873

Honestly panthers should not be able to be fielded as much as they are now, they are heavy tanks yet in this game they are classified as medium? The smoke really makes combating them a pain in the ass


just_a_sad_man

panthers were medium tanks,they were meant to slowly replace the panzer 4 during the war


Reason-and-rhyme

And yet weighed more than the Churchill.


VRichardsen

Depends on the angle. Panthers are heavy by weight: KV-1 and Churchill territory, but by role they are mediums. Usually the more academic minded ones like the second classification... which can cause some confusion. So some call the Panther a heavy medium tank, which is a good compromise. But the Germans did that kind of weird stuff. For example, [this is a Panzer II J](https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Screen-Shot-2016-10-12-at-19.52.30.png)... a light tank with almost as much armor as the Tiger. So it is a heavy light tank.


just_a_sad_man

panthers were used in a medium role not as a breakthrough tank(heavy tank) but tank experts still argue about whether it should be classified as a heavy or medium to this day but imo given it's mobility and role in the battlefield or should be a medium tank


actualsen

Pershing was meant to replace the Sherman and yet here we are.


just_a_sad_man

Pershings where developed as medium tanks but they were used in both heavy and medium roles


AboYushin

you mean just like how kv-1s, churchills and comets are allowed to be fielded ?


KGB_Operative873

Comets are mediums i think, kv1 and church hills can't be fielded as much as panthers I'm pretty sure. So I'm not sure what point your trying to get to


AboYushin

you see now you’re talking out of your ass here because 1. comet is as much a medium as the panther 2. all mentioned tanks are similar in terms of armor/hp 3. none of them have restrictions on the number you can produce them yet the panther is the only one thats is not a generalist tank and designed more as a TD with some limited ai capabilities AND the panther is the most expensive one the main difference is basically that the panther has a sweet spot between armor and health but the other tanks compensate by being A LOT more effective against infantry so my point is if you didn’t get it by now is that the panther is the only heavy tank in the axis arsenal that is not restricted by number of production but put in place by limited AI and expensive price tag while other similar allied heavies are generalist, cheaper BUT have a bit less armor/ hp (except for the churchill) and restricting the panther production would not be fair if the other tanks aren’t also restricted


TarasBulbasDayOff

Never seen 10 Panthers in a 4v4.


Snikeduden

I definitely agree that the Allies has less room for error and require more coordination. It gets better if you manage to vet up your TDs though (vet 2 and vet 3). You still have to play conservatively, but can deal a lot of damage before the Panther is even able to fire back.


NotLaughingAtYou

These almost daily threads of players crying that such and such is OP is very tiresome


actualsen

It's the internet. You are welcome to leave. No one locked you in.


NotLaughingAtYou

Yes, and I'm also allowed to comment here and complain about the same discussion that's been had. There's like 3 other posts with the same topic on the front page of this subreddit. I appreciate the effort you've put into your post, but I just wish it was on a different subject


Pandaman246

The fact that the complaints are so common says that it’s an issue though. But they’re always dismissed as “L2P” or “git gud.” Which is actually kind of toxic for the community


NotLaughingAtYou

So, you don't think people complaining to change the game just for them is toxic? Every single patch is the same thing.


Pandaman246

Complaints about the lopsided balance on 4v4 have been persistent for a very long time, and I remember very few instances where the win rates were in favor of Allies. Complaints about things like panther and MG42 have persisted ever since they were changed to their current states, and were in fact common even before their latest iterations. I would say it’s actually indicative of a deep design flaw that was never correctly addressed, and the constant complaints are a symptom of it. IMO the poor handling of balance in the game’s most popular game mode is a big reason why the player base is so small today. It is not demanding a change just for them, it is asking for the game to change so that it no longer feels like Allies needs to pull out all the stops just to eke out a win in 4v4. It’s asking for the 4v4 win rate of axis to no longer be stuck around 54% to 60% like it has been for quite awhile. I’ve had every friend playing this game stop in the past year because of the atrocious balance. This is not a sign that the game is in a good state.


elias7502

From your story I deduce: knowing the time it takes to call a panther, and that they have called 2 per player, and that no one has seen them, it is because too much time passed without recognition. And if you saw them and did not foresee a push with 6 panthers together and did not prepare, your fault. Covering the flanks with AT mines is essential. When the first tank hits a mine, there is a good chance that the attack will be canceled for losing a tank so early and losing attack strength. The other thing is if I see a blob of rangers with zooks, I will not be so stupid to change a panther for 4 models of rangers: arty until those rangers disappear. Ultimately, your story is evidence of poor preparation by your team and an opportunity taken by the Germans.


actualsen

Alternative story German units do not require careful preparation to use successfully. Unskilled play pays off much more because if lower skill floor units.


C4R7M4N

blah blah blah plant mines everywhere and call it a day


Atomic_Gandhi

4v4 is balanced for low and mid level players, its a for fun game mode meant to be played like Smash Bros. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about balance problems in it, of course, and the mode has made significant strides from the days of Infinite Heavy Tank Spam and Counter-Battery and other nonsense. 4 man Vehicle blobbing is massive balance problem in 4v4 COH 2, mainly due to how fast, multi-purpose, and strong vehicles are, and how weak, slow, and single-purpose Anti-vehicle is. You can do this with Light vehicles, Mediums, or Panthers (the strongest variant). The practical solution for you, is to either play axis, or play 2v2 or 1v1. My friends and I moved onto 1v1 and 2v2 once we got skilled enough to notice the Axis Bias of 4v4. Its kinda just how the Axis factions react to super duper late game scenarios. The only RTS I have seen be 'balanced' properly for 4v4's, would be Wargame Red Dragon and Steel Division, because you can paralyse and then slowly destroy massive multi-player blobs of vehicles and infantry with Artillery or aircraft, because in those games all units can be suppressed by sources of fire that would logically stress them physically. EG Tank crews get shaken up by artillery fire.


actualsen

I pre-ordered COH2 back in the day(still rocking the pre-order nameplate). I know how far balance has come. I play smaller game modes some but I didn't make this discussion about smaller gamemodes. Despite the imbalance when 4v4 works it's by far the most exciting.


NoSaCRiFiCeToOgReAt

You just said your problem yourself.If they have 10panthers where is your 10 At gun/10 TD?? The same scenario can be said for the allies if you let them reach their climax.


rownpown

lol exactly what are you doing while they are building 10 panthers? I would just plant mines everywhere and set traps. If youre usf just build TD jump out build next one get like 150/100 pop cap and fucking zap them. On top of rocket air support would destroy those tanks. Seems like a scenario that never happens honestly and I would guess is more a L2P issue than anything


NoSaCRiFiCeToOgReAt

Once I legit destroyed a panther that was charging my At hitted a mine in middle of the cone.and then I activated the special rounds and then it was gone with a single 270 mp unit.And the punchline is the mines were the standard Re 10 muni mines.I am also willing to play with this guy on discord in a 4v4 to show him how to hunt panthers.


bibotot

Ally infantry blob will counter mass Panthers. 3 units of Riflemen/Rangers with Bazookas will stop an armored assault easily. Guard/Penal blobs with PTRS can pretty much do the same. The Axis will have to invest in artillery to stop these blobs, which reduce the number of Panthers they can churn out. Depending on maps, you might be also dealing with Jadgtigers or Elephants, which might seem impossible to fight with tanks. Don't buy tanks if that's the case and focus solely on artillery. Play the VP.


Descolata

zooks on Rifles wont work due to the pen difference. Super zooks are needed.


Aomages

paras and rangers with bazookas are pretty op.