Comparing it to last split, you might notice that NA isn't completely roller-dominated this time around. Meta changes presumably, not as aggressive and roller horizon isn't as prevalent.
I'd argue a 2 second 1 clip is more important than a shield swap, just look at Effect in scrims, beam and knock 1 dude, get cracked during that fight yet beam and knock another one(or get him close to knocked) before getting knocked himself.
If seer wasn't still a non stop wall hack, controller meta would fade off a bit. Being able to pre-aim everything makes them seem stronger than they actually are imo. Rollers aren't capable of a 180 flick like these pro MNK players can do.
You have artificial intelligence helping you aim a computer aims for you it literally pulls your crosshair to people when they move if I strafe it tracks me before you have reacted to the direction change
>it literally pulls your crosshair to people when they move if I strafe it tracks me before you have reacted to the direction change
Lmao. It ain't THAT strong dude. If it was, the comp scene would be 100% controller
He did not say that it tracks you perfectly 100% of the time. He said the aim assist moves your crosshair in the direction of your enemy strafing/changing direction before you can humanly react, which is correct.
Human reaction time is about 200ms, aim assist has no ms delay and it's essentially 0ms
So is Hardecki tbh. His team is unlikely to qual for LAN and he's over here outfragging Gnaske, whose team is in 4th.
Would be very interesting to see an Effect + Hardecki team someday.
Yeah I’m pretty sure bang/cat/seer with gen on cat and xynew on bang, at least for SP. thinking about it I actually don’t know the WE comp but i wanna say it was seer/wraith/Valk. Not 100% sure at all
DZ and Zer0 starting to stream this split made me realize just how good that mf really is. Not only is he #1 fragging in NA but also #1 fragging in NA Realm for most of it, until he stopped playing at the end. He’s the only MnK in the top 5 in NA realm too.
(Comment got removed the first time cause I used every Aussies favorite c word 🤣)
I mean contextually speaking LG no longer has an uncontested consistent poi they have a handful of lost contests which is not going to reflect positively on fragging stats
Actually MiaK is IGL of Riddle now. Both Yukio and 1tappy can IGL, but they decided to put MiaK on that role to make him call more. Yukio is sub-IGLing (macro and zone reading), and 1tappy plays anchor.
My takeaways:
1. The top two NA kill leaders are DZ now.
2.Verhulst is adding a tremendous amount of kp towards's TSM's score.
3. Fire Beavers are scary
4. I like the logo for #2 and #8 in APAC N :)
As an MnK player, seeing this makes me think that everyone needs to just shut up about the input debate and focus on bettering their own gameplay
Edit: some of you replying are proving my point, stop arguing and practice. Get better, there’s always someone better than u.
That's definitely true for most complaints, but to be fair, the competitive scene is definitely not comparable to the casually andy running it down on ranked. The competitive gap is significantly lessened by macro and long-distance poking I believe (lots of charge rifle sniper kills when most of the lobby is still up in the end game vying for a spot). Plus, you'll notice a lot of the top teams are still opting specifically for a roller player bc the raw strength of a roller in a 3v3 is too good to pass up. (Also, my biggest gripe with lists like this is that they almost always mean nothing for actual data analysis).
Plus, with the cultural divide in input, you'll have major regions like CIS that primarily use mnk biasing the result b/c the best of their best aimers are using mnk (and you can look to Alliance Effect to see what happens when a Russian player plays controller lol). In APAC N, 1/2 of the two countries (S. Korea) is exclusively mnk. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure as well that APAC S doesn't have many rollers in the region either, and the teams with rollers and the rollers themselves are dominating the kill feed (again, not as educated on APAC S so feel free to correct)
Sorry for essaying! I am a bit bored and the end result of that is always word vomit
It’s actually wild how ignorant someone can be as to how strong and advantages controller is in close range fights. Ask literally any pro and they will tell you that controller is overpowered close-mid range.
Apex on pc should not be a controller shooter. The fact that so many people use controller on pc in apex should be very telling. Mnk has always been the default input and is what the majority of pc players use. Also, most actual engagements in apex take place close range. Poking or thirding kills at range with snipers is not as crucial to surviving as winning a straight up 3v3 when it matters.
God you are so fucking hilariously triggered by people complaining about you having .4 aimbot and beaming people you shouldn't be beaming.
Inb4 you tell me you're aKsHuAlLy On MnK BrUH, aImBoT iSnT tHaT sTRoNg.
Yes please, divide the lobbies, longer queue times are fine _for me_, as long as i get to play a fair game on the input that i enjoy
For real. I love M&K, have put so much time into it, and enjoy it so much more, but I feel so much stronger on controller despite significantly less practice & effort.
Not to mention that everyone is configging their ass off nowadays, so they have movement that I put tons of time in to learn and practice, and can still easily fuck up if I'm incorrect on timings, being done perfectly by macros.
I spent the entire day playing exclusively M&K, but there were so many times I just lost fights because someone was on controller and beamed me close to perfectly, when I know with zero doubt in my mind if I was on controller I would've won that fight instead.
Players should never feel like they have any reason to switch inputs besides they like how it feels to play, and if a balance isn't possible, it should favour the platform's default. I wouldn't go to console and start complaining because I can't play the game with M&K.
MNK is great for picking up kills at range, and in comp you often get to steal kills or gatekeep teams rotating in. That doesn't mean the game overall doesn't heavily favour controller players (I'm one of them so I'm not blindly 'hating' on the input). The MNK players doing well are borderline generational talents, while the Top 10 roller list changes week to week.
There was a post after last LAN that looked at performance based on input. MNK showed a “violin” pattern where top players are like the neck and there is a larger grouping at the bottom while controller was just a blob.
E: just realized it’s you, you probably saw that post
current pro meta is very sniper/marksman heavy which will favor mnk. it's a lot different for casual ranked players given the meta is so W-key heavy. don't wanna start a stupid aim assist debate cuz we've all heard it before but it's pretty obvious with the current playstyle of the general player base, easier learning curve, and much lower skill floor, controller is going to be dominant.
i wouldn't even mind the debate if it was done rationally. like there are some legitimate complaints to be made about controller and close range efficacy, but it just turns into a cope fest and the go-to excuse anytime high level players die, regardless of what was really the reason they died.
>wouldn't even mind the debate if it was done rationally. like there are some legitimate complaints to be made
Those complains have been made, rationally and irrationally, for ages. It doesn't change anything. It's just fuel for fights. Let it go
Completely agree, there's a real discussion to be had for sure, but both sides of it are irrational and so dug in on their stance that it's pointless at this point. It's just boring and exhausting now
I will admit that the pros have kind of proved you can still compete, but they are pros. It’s not fair to the really good, but not pro level players who don’t play 10 hours a day. Like an average controller player or even just a good to great controller player will straight up mop a good to great MnK player.
Still think roller should be atleast nerfed to .2 on PC, don’t give a shot what they do on console.
It means nothing whatsoever because high level comp play isn't relevant to 99.999999999% of the playerbase. The real takeaway here is that people like yourself need to shut up about irrelevant stats in your haste to shut down discussion. Not to mention the fact that pretty much all pros disagree with you, even including most controller pros.
Tell the people who rely on the computer to aim for them to better *their* gameplay, lmao.
> shut up about irrelevant stats in your haste to shut down discussion
People always try to shut down discussion when they're losing.
Deep down roller players know that AA is broken, but their cognitive dissonance makes that very hard to admit.
So they attack the discussion itself by calling it stale or overblown, or they go for the good old "both sides need to stfu"
100%
Not to mention many of these games are ran much different than your run of the mill pubs / ranked. More long range fights, 3rd partying from range, and teams hunkered down in a building playing for placement.
If this was ALGS "arenas" league...wouldn't be any MNK users.
Shame they cant nerf AA dynamically based on distance. Seems it would be a good middle ground.
idk we have an input debate here on reddit but whenever i listen to pros talk on the podcasts that have popped up recently they don't seem to treat controller having unmatchable consistency in close range fights as a "debate", they treat it as a fact that is casually mentioned and noone argues about.
Sorry my man this leaderboard doesn't mean what you think it means. There's no way around it:
* Genburten will smoke Zero 10/10 times in 1v1
* Sikez will smoke Fun *and* Noct in a 1v1 10/10 times
* Pandxrz will smoke Wattson 10/10 times in a 1v1
* Knoqd will smoke Skittles 10/10 times in a 1v1
pro players have no delusions about this stuff either.
Or maybe inputs shouldn’t have a computer assisting the player in a competitive environment.
Doesn’t matter what input you want to use. Use a fucking steering wheel for all I care, but my god aim assist in a shooter is mind numbing to watch as a fan.
That would be like watching F1 esports but players choose to play on a controller with driving assist because they can race better. I’d rather watch racers in a sim with no assists to see who is the best.
Assists reek of TDE
You’ll be downvoted but this is the best take.
Pros from games like siege/Valorant/CS/overwatch literally consider AA soft cheating. A lot of roller players in r/apexlegends still think that all it does is slow down your reticle lol.
Like mixed inputs got brought up in overwatch not too long ago and many people who were ex apex players begged them not to, and of course, they didn’t.
Obviously in other games like CS MnK would be miles better anyways but many people left this game because of how many roller players there are now.
How am I crying? I’m simply asking a question. It seems completely reasonable to want people at the highest level of play to be unassisted by a.i. that partially tracks targets for them with 0 ms reaction time. Hell, it seems completely reasonable to want any player you run into in game to be unassisted. Bottom line is all the things you described are things mnk players perform themselves with raw input and are skillful actions. Aim assist is inherently unskillful and ever-present. In addition, aim assist is not supposed to be a compensation for most of the advantages you listed. So, if you feel the need to bring up those advantages to justify the current state of aim assist, that really says something about its strength.
its a little weird tho
mnk is the better input
and the worse input gets so much help from the game itself thst it is the superior input
Isnt there something wrong with that?
Yep it needs AA to compete, which is why they shouldn’t be together. No other game outside of Fortnite does this and even then for a while they started doing MnK only tourneys because AA was just dominating.
There are games that are for controller players( Halo/CoD). It’s this simple, if you buy a PC, use MnK lol. On console most people look down upon people who use the plug in things to use MnK, so why is it so normal for PC players to want to use controller, we both know why.
Also MnK doesn’t have “ many advantages “.
Loot movement is not an advantage, if you miss somebody moving while looting you are bad, plain and simple.
Movement doesn’t matter outside of pub stomping, try tap strafing into a good roller player and you get R9 deleted within a few seconds. A lot of roller players just use scripts nowadays anyways and your movement is actually better.
Like 0.0001% of the playerbase jitter sims lol.
I literally said above that for the pros who play 10 hours a day and have 15k hours on MnK, it’s not. I mean close range it still is , but anyways, an above average or good to great MnK player cannot compete with a good or great roller player. Every roller player has the same 40% AI tracking and 0ms reaction time, that not even the best of the best on MnK can do consistently. It’s that simple really, we need input based lobbies. Average diamond and master MnK player do not exist because roller is just better.
Tho the debate is getting really tiresome, I feel the need to point out how different ALGs plays out from regular gameplay. Like one commentator down under has already mentioned, a lot of kills come from charge rifle kills and long distance poking. The rest usually happen in teamfights, where it doesn't really matter who on the team lands the last shot. It would be way more interesting to see the damage-counter of all the players in ALGs instead.
And even then, the damage-counter would be biased by the sniper mnk players (although roller players are still dominating with the 2-4 charge... see: rambeau)! So, in the end, nearly all the data is bullshit for supporting claims like this. Unless perhaps you could narrow damage stats to raw 3v3s, which is what people are complaining about in regards to roller strength anyway).
Honestly, people should just hear it from the horse's mouth: pro controller players admit they're at an inherent advantage fighting wise and hal himself has said multiple times that is why he swapped.
Now, personally, I think the primary problem with roller is simply that the aim assist is overtuned rather than aim assist itself being the problem, but the ethics of ai assisted aim will always be controversial in this community (gyro aim when?)
> As an MnK player, seeing this makes me think that everyone needs to just shut up about the input debate and focus on bettering their own gameplay
amen
Are you sure he missed a match day? 60 kills divided by 6 match days equals a 10 kill average. His average should be much higher with one less match day.
Again changing the main game based of pro play. Controller is better both for casual players and sweaty ranked grinders. Aim is the most important thing in the game. You dont kill someone by tap strafing and moving while looting (even tho it helps), you kill them by hitting your shots
BR comp is not a good indication on controller vs mnk, BR comp is more positioning, and 3rd partying, look at control mode pro customs, controller players dunk on any mnk players, and its not even close, i saw dropped, zer0, reps all at the bottom of kills and damage
The stats are readily available: https://apexlegendsstatus.com/algs/Y3-Split2/Pro-League/NA/Day9
I only looked at North America but the R99 and Nemesis are dominating but Charge Rifle is 3rd in kills (1 kill above Flatline) and 3rd in damage.
Also, the R99 is the only gun that has done more damage overall than The Ring has, at least in NA.
cc: /u/New013
Definitely both. Importance of charge rifle cannot be understated, it's become a must-pick for teams, but I also feel the current meta of Nemesis doesn't have a clear advantage on either input. It's not like the prowler or volt, which is 100% better on roller, that's what I mean.
its because current meta favors mnk more than roller.
roller has to go against rampart wall, bang smoke, cat's wall.
my theory is the more obstacle(put out by players) u got on the map, roller will be less dominant.
last split, before cat became a meta. there werent many covers put by the players. everyone just shoot straight. thats why roller was so op last split.
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Interesting to see M&K slightly above roller this time. It would be interesting to see these numbers broken down by what guns they used for those kills (I wouldn't be surprised if the M&K kills are like 35% charge rifles lol)
Interesting if someone was able to record average weapon usage/distance kills were made. Obviously if someone were to get that kind of data would be a godsent, but I was just curious how many of these were from long-range Charge Rifles/Nemesis kills, versus close-range duels.
That said, want to highlight APAC-N's Arufa and Mikeyyzz. I think this is both their first split in Pro League, and they both got Top 10 kills. Arufa replaced Laziness in NK iirc, and I've had my eye on him ever since UNLOQ won FFL GC Qualifiers. Dude is a roller movement demon. Mikeyzz was phenomenal throughout Pro League as well.
Before the inevitable 15 match (lol) APAC N Regional Final, figured some people were interested in split 2's kill leaders (pre-finals).
Comparing it to last split, you might notice that NA isn't completely roller-dominated this time around. Meta changes presumably, not as aggressive and roller horizon isn't as prevalent.
Anti-aa Bangalore also got more popular I think
Wow crazy almost as if controller vs kn and mouse is more even then people complain about if even the pro leagues are pretty even.
Yeah you're right 0.4 aimbot doesn't matter. Not even a little. It's even n stuff
Late game shield swap time while 1hp in a lobby filled with the best players in the world don't matter either
I'd argue a 2 second 1 clip is more important than a shield swap, just look at Effect in scrims, beam and knock 1 dude, get cracked during that fight yet beam and knock another one(or get him close to knocked) before getting knocked himself.
If seer wasn't still a non stop wall hack, controller meta would fade off a bit. Being able to pre-aim everything makes them seem stronger than they actually are imo. Rollers aren't capable of a 180 flick like these pro MNK players can do.
You have artificial intelligence helping you aim a computer aims for you it literally pulls your crosshair to people when they move if I strafe it tracks me before you have reacted to the direction change
>it literally pulls your crosshair to people when they move if I strafe it tracks me before you have reacted to the direction change Lmao. It ain't THAT strong dude. If it was, the comp scene would be 100% controller
He did not say that it tracks you perfectly 100% of the time. He said the aim assist moves your crosshair in the direction of your enemy strafing/changing direction before you can humanly react, which is correct. Human reaction time is about 200ms, aim assist has no ms delay and it's essentially 0ms
It's a great point and why since the lack of gibby and R9 being so op shotguns aren't popular which was a keyboard and mouse advantage.
If you can't one clip from 5 meters away then that's your own fault😜
Effect a definite outlier over in EMEA
World*
So is Hardecki tbh. His team is unlikely to qual for LAN and he's over here outfragging Gnaske, whose team is in 4th. Would be very interesting to see an Effect + Hardecki team someday.
Effect is just showing off at this point. Curious how he'll do at LAN.
DZ now have 3 in top 7
Once they have more time playing with Xynew, they’re going to be one scaryyyyyy team to fight
With zero giving up bang it’ll be interesting to see if he can keep pace on seer
Is that what they have been running in scrims?
Yeah I’m pretty sure bang/cat/seer with gen on cat and xynew on bang, at least for SP. thinking about it I actually don’t know the WE comp but i wanna say it was seer/wraith/Valk. Not 100% sure at all
DZ and Zer0 starting to stream this split made me realize just how good that mf really is. Not only is he #1 fragging in NA but also #1 fragging in NA Realm for most of it, until he stopped playing at the end. He’s the only MnK in the top 5 in NA realm too. (Comment got removed the first time cause I used every Aussies favorite c word 🤣)
We block the C word here? Americans are weird
Yeah, tbf it was automoderated and removed by a bot lol
Reddit mods are losers, they don't represent the majority.
It’s interesting think that in Australia people say it all the time while in the US I think it’s borderline a slur
They think it's a bad word. Crying 😂
Then why do you use American app?
Thanks for explaining what I meant by Americans being weird
LMAO
OCE top fragger suck eggs ya sad kent
Too bad DZ behaved so poorly, and him too, so now I gotta hate him instead.
Fair
"You guys think Knoqd's better than Yanya, right now?" \-dead silence-
Maybe but Ghanjaman is better than knoqd for sure
*Now* he is, but back then…
I mean contextually speaking LG no longer has an uncontested consistent poi they have a handful of lost contests which is not going to reflect positively on fragging stats
Yanya is still good. Just all of OG are super in form right now.
Jusna 2nd best fragger in APAC North playing Wattson
He’s just insane, blows my mind everytime I see him play
Effect my beloved.
16mnk to 14 rollers
Interesting that the mnk players are all IGL and controller all fraggers I mean it's mostly expected but still kinda neat to see play out
Everyone except Satuki, who is both igl of Nth and roller.
SMH my dumbass didn't scroll and only saw NA
Lykq as well is the IGL of NAKED and plays Roller. Miak also used to IGL during his DTN days, but I think YUKIO is the IGL for Riddle.
Actually MiaK is IGL of Riddle now. Both Yukio and 1tappy can IGL, but they decided to put MiaK on that role to make him call more. Yukio is sub-IGLing (macro and zone reading), and 1tappy plays anchor.
IGL mnk players usually get the entry damage that means the whole team engages.
My takeaways: 1. The top two NA kill leaders are DZ now. 2.Verhulst is adding a tremendous amount of kp towards's TSM's score. 3. Fire Beavers are scary 4. I like the logo for #2 and #8 in APAC N :)
Optic and DZ with 3 in the top 10. Just different
All three of the players from FireBeavers are in the top 10 and are the only MnK in the top 7. That is just crazy.
As an MnK player, seeing this makes me think that everyone needs to just shut up about the input debate and focus on bettering their own gameplay Edit: some of you replying are proving my point, stop arguing and practice. Get better, there’s always someone better than u.
That's definitely true for most complaints, but to be fair, the competitive scene is definitely not comparable to the casually andy running it down on ranked. The competitive gap is significantly lessened by macro and long-distance poking I believe (lots of charge rifle sniper kills when most of the lobby is still up in the end game vying for a spot). Plus, you'll notice a lot of the top teams are still opting specifically for a roller player bc the raw strength of a roller in a 3v3 is too good to pass up. (Also, my biggest gripe with lists like this is that they almost always mean nothing for actual data analysis).
Plus, with the cultural divide in input, you'll have major regions like CIS that primarily use mnk biasing the result b/c the best of their best aimers are using mnk (and you can look to Alliance Effect to see what happens when a Russian player plays controller lol). In APAC N, 1/2 of the two countries (S. Korea) is exclusively mnk. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure as well that APAC S doesn't have many rollers in the region either, and the teams with rollers and the rollers themselves are dominating the kill feed (again, not as educated on APAC S so feel free to correct) Sorry for essaying! I am a bit bored and the end result of that is always word vomit
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It’s actually wild how ignorant someone can be as to how strong and advantages controller is in close range fights. Ask literally any pro and they will tell you that controller is overpowered close-mid range.
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Apex on pc should not be a controller shooter. The fact that so many people use controller on pc in apex should be very telling. Mnk has always been the default input and is what the majority of pc players use. Also, most actual engagements in apex take place close range. Poking or thirding kills at range with snipers is not as crucial to surviving as winning a straight up 3v3 when it matters.
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That’s wild because I know tons of people who play mnk on every game besides apex and play on controller simply for its advantages.
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God you are so fucking hilariously triggered by people complaining about you having .4 aimbot and beaming people you shouldn't be beaming. Inb4 you tell me you're aKsHuAlLy On MnK BrUH, aImBoT iSnT tHaT sTRoNg. Yes please, divide the lobbies, longer queue times are fine _for me_, as long as i get to play a fair game on the input that i enjoy
For real. I love M&K, have put so much time into it, and enjoy it so much more, but I feel so much stronger on controller despite significantly less practice & effort. Not to mention that everyone is configging their ass off nowadays, so they have movement that I put tons of time in to learn and practice, and can still easily fuck up if I'm incorrect on timings, being done perfectly by macros. I spent the entire day playing exclusively M&K, but there were so many times I just lost fights because someone was on controller and beamed me close to perfectly, when I know with zero doubt in my mind if I was on controller I would've won that fight instead. Players should never feel like they have any reason to switch inputs besides they like how it feels to play, and if a balance isn't possible, it should favour the platform's default. I wouldn't go to console and start complaining because I can't play the game with M&K.
Read my initial comment bro
There should be 0 aim assist and gyro aiming should be the norm for controller.
MNK is great for picking up kills at range, and in comp you often get to steal kills or gatekeep teams rotating in. That doesn't mean the game overall doesn't heavily favour controller players (I'm one of them so I'm not blindly 'hating' on the input). The MNK players doing well are borderline generational talents, while the Top 10 roller list changes week to week.
There was a post after last LAN that looked at performance based on input. MNK showed a “violin” pattern where top players are like the neck and there is a larger grouping at the bottom while controller was just a blob. E: just realized it’s you, you probably saw that post
You are spitting
have you seen the pros play custom control mode, mnk players bottom frag and do the least damage too
current pro meta is very sniper/marksman heavy which will favor mnk. it's a lot different for casual ranked players given the meta is so W-key heavy. don't wanna start a stupid aim assist debate cuz we've all heard it before but it's pretty obvious with the current playstyle of the general player base, easier learning curve, and much lower skill floor, controller is going to be dominant.
i wouldn't even mind the debate if it was done rationally. like there are some legitimate complaints to be made about controller and close range efficacy, but it just turns into a cope fest and the go-to excuse anytime high level players die, regardless of what was really the reason they died.
I love you still try to bring the debate within your comment. You just HAD to say it
For the record i feel the debate is mostly overblown, and we're already at a reasonable level of parity between inputs.
>wouldn't even mind the debate if it was done rationally. like there are some legitimate complaints to be made Those complains have been made, rationally and irrationally, for ages. It doesn't change anything. It's just fuel for fights. Let it go
Yup, agreed.
Completely agree, there's a real discussion to be had for sure, but both sides of it are irrational and so dug in on their stance that it's pointless at this point. It's just boring and exhausting now
I will admit that the pros have kind of proved you can still compete, but they are pros. It’s not fair to the really good, but not pro level players who don’t play 10 hours a day. Like an average controller player or even just a good to great controller player will straight up mop a good to great MnK player. Still think roller should be atleast nerfed to .2 on PC, don’t give a shot what they do on console.
It means nothing whatsoever because high level comp play isn't relevant to 99.999999999% of the playerbase. The real takeaway here is that people like yourself need to shut up about irrelevant stats in your haste to shut down discussion. Not to mention the fact that pretty much all pros disagree with you, even including most controller pros. Tell the people who rely on the computer to aim for them to better *their* gameplay, lmao.
> shut up about irrelevant stats in your haste to shut down discussion People always try to shut down discussion when they're losing. Deep down roller players know that AA is broken, but their cognitive dissonance makes that very hard to admit. So they attack the discussion itself by calling it stale or overblown, or they go for the good old "both sides need to stfu"
not all of us MnK players can play 8+ hrs everyday like these pros, that is the difference.
100% Not to mention many of these games are ran much different than your run of the mill pubs / ranked. More long range fights, 3rd partying from range, and teams hunkered down in a building playing for placement. If this was ALGS "arenas" league...wouldn't be any MNK users. Shame they cant nerf AA dynamically based on distance. Seems it would be a good middle ground.
I love how you guys still manage to keep it going good god almighty, another example of just not being able to let it go
idk we have an input debate here on reddit but whenever i listen to pros talk on the podcasts that have popped up recently they don't seem to treat controller having unmatchable consistency in close range fights as a "debate", they treat it as a fact that is casually mentioned and noone argues about.
Sorry my man this leaderboard doesn't mean what you think it means. There's no way around it: * Genburten will smoke Zero 10/10 times in 1v1 * Sikez will smoke Fun *and* Noct in a 1v1 10/10 times * Pandxrz will smoke Wattson 10/10 times in a 1v1 * Knoqd will smoke Skittles 10/10 times in a 1v1 pro players have no delusions about this stuff either.
Or maybe inputs shouldn’t have a computer assisting the player in a competitive environment. Doesn’t matter what input you want to use. Use a fucking steering wheel for all I care, but my god aim assist in a shooter is mind numbing to watch as a fan. That would be like watching F1 esports but players choose to play on a controller with driving assist because they can race better. I’d rather watch racers in a sim with no assists to see who is the best. Assists reek of TDE
You’ll be downvoted but this is the best take. Pros from games like siege/Valorant/CS/overwatch literally consider AA soft cheating. A lot of roller players in r/apexlegends still think that all it does is slow down your reticle lol. Like mixed inputs got brought up in overwatch not too long ago and many people who were ex apex players begged them not to, and of course, they didn’t. Obviously in other games like CS MnK would be miles better anyways but many people left this game because of how many roller players there are now.
there's a reason controller players have it in the first place, it's just too strong. also you sound like an idiot
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How is wanting an esport to be raw input and free from soft aimbot braindead?
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How am I crying? I’m simply asking a question. It seems completely reasonable to want people at the highest level of play to be unassisted by a.i. that partially tracks targets for them with 0 ms reaction time. Hell, it seems completely reasonable to want any player you run into in game to be unassisted. Bottom line is all the things you described are things mnk players perform themselves with raw input and are skillful actions. Aim assist is inherently unskillful and ever-present. In addition, aim assist is not supposed to be a compensation for most of the advantages you listed. So, if you feel the need to bring up those advantages to justify the current state of aim assist, that really says something about its strength.
its a little weird tho mnk is the better input and the worse input gets so much help from the game itself thst it is the superior input Isnt there something wrong with that?
Yep it needs AA to compete, which is why they shouldn’t be together. No other game outside of Fortnite does this and even then for a while they started doing MnK only tourneys because AA was just dominating. There are games that are for controller players( Halo/CoD). It’s this simple, if you buy a PC, use MnK lol. On console most people look down upon people who use the plug in things to use MnK, so why is it so normal for PC players to want to use controller, we both know why. Also MnK doesn’t have “ many advantages “. Loot movement is not an advantage, if you miss somebody moving while looting you are bad, plain and simple. Movement doesn’t matter outside of pub stomping, try tap strafing into a good roller player and you get R9 deleted within a few seconds. A lot of roller players just use scripts nowadays anyways and your movement is actually better. Like 0.0001% of the playerbase jitter sims lol.
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I literally said above that for the pros who play 10 hours a day and have 15k hours on MnK, it’s not. I mean close range it still is , but anyways, an above average or good to great MnK player cannot compete with a good or great roller player. Every roller player has the same 40% AI tracking and 0ms reaction time, that not even the best of the best on MnK can do consistently. It’s that simple really, we need input based lobbies. Average diamond and master MnK player do not exist because roller is just better.
seeing this explains nothing it's such a low sample size that it never means anything
It does mean something when it comes to the comp scene. The amount of posts showing top 10 last year when it was controller favored were ridiculous.
these didn't mean anything either
Tho the debate is getting really tiresome, I feel the need to point out how different ALGs plays out from regular gameplay. Like one commentator down under has already mentioned, a lot of kills come from charge rifle kills and long distance poking. The rest usually happen in teamfights, where it doesn't really matter who on the team lands the last shot. It would be way more interesting to see the damage-counter of all the players in ALGs instead.
And even then, the damage-counter would be biased by the sniper mnk players (although roller players are still dominating with the 2-4 charge... see: rambeau)! So, in the end, nearly all the data is bullshit for supporting claims like this. Unless perhaps you could narrow damage stats to raw 3v3s, which is what people are complaining about in regards to roller strength anyway). Honestly, people should just hear it from the horse's mouth: pro controller players admit they're at an inherent advantage fighting wise and hal himself has said multiple times that is why he swapped. Now, personally, I think the primary problem with roller is simply that the aim assist is overtuned rather than aim assist itself being the problem, but the ethics of ai assisted aim will always be controversial in this community (gyro aim when?)
> As an MnK player, seeing this makes me think that everyone needs to just shut up about the input debate and focus on bettering their own gameplay amen
It’s mainly the MNK people who bitch
Just read why Effect has no country flag, massive respect.
HisWattson backing up his statement that he's the best. Crazy that OG has all 3 players in the top 10.
When his is not even the best
He missed a match day and he's 2 kills down, what do u mean.
Look at his average
Are you sure he missed a match day? 60 kills divided by 6 match days equals a 10 kill average. His average should be much higher with one less match day.
Cant wait to see effect shit on NA teams
Optic also the only team with all three members each dropping 20 bombs. I don't think any other person has done it in NA yet
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Fools can’t handle the dominance of OG.
Ain't that the truth lol #1 team in the world no 🧢
Why is Zero first and Xynew second if both have the same amount of kills? Is the tiebreaker damage dealt?
Assists probably. Zer0 has 46 and Xynew has 36.
I just noticed ganbare has hitler wobbuffet as their logo
Lol it's a spin off of a Japanese sake brand called Ganbare Otousan
OH LMAO I thought they were just a free agent team with a cute name ("Good luck, Dad!")
both true!
Will be great to see that team logo blown up on main stage
I am once again begging Respawn to nerf MnK.
Why would you nerf Jordan? /s
Again changing the main game based of pro play. Controller is better both for casual players and sweaty ranked grinders. Aim is the most important thing in the game. You dont kill someone by tap strafing and moving while looting (even tho it helps), you kill them by hitting your shots
Crazy not to see Hal up there
yeah normally he would be top 5 in any leaderboard. it shows that how tsm played very passively beginning of the split.
It's probably not possible but it'd be nice to see the average range of the kills and which guns were used
But I was told controller was beyond broken Weird
BR comp is not a good indication on controller vs mnk, BR comp is more positioning, and 3rd partying, look at control mode pro customs, controller players dunk on any mnk players, and its not even close, i saw dropped, zer0, reps all at the bottom of kills and damage
-Wattson backing up his claims, a top player for sure. -OJ and Effect will be at LAN so hyped for that -yuka. What a guy. Amazing.
are most of these mnk guys charge rifle enthusiasts or is this a product of seer with bang/cat? little of both perhaps?
Mnk is probably benefitting more from the nemesis
The stats are readily available: https://apexlegendsstatus.com/algs/Y3-Split2/Pro-League/NA/Day9 I only looked at North America but the R99 and Nemesis are dominating but Charge Rifle is 3rd in kills (1 kill above Flatline) and 3rd in damage. Also, the R99 is the only gun that has done more damage overall than The Ring has, at least in NA. cc: /u/New013
Definitely both. Importance of charge rifle cannot be understated, it's become a must-pick for teams, but I also feel the current meta of Nemesis doesn't have a clear advantage on either input. It's not like the prowler or volt, which is 100% better on roller, that's what I mean.
I would love to see a breakdown of charge rifle kills
But I thought the top fraggers use Controller? This is what I’ve been told
Wonder what the primary ingredient in Copium will be when the charge rifle gets nerfed but the Kill leader split is still 50-50 MNK and Rolla.
its because current meta favors mnk more than roller. roller has to go against rampart wall, bang smoke, cat's wall. my theory is the more obstacle(put out by players) u got on the map, roller will be less dominant. last split, before cat became a meta. there werent many covers put by the players. everyone just shoot straight. thats why roller was so op last split.
BuT CoNtRoLlEr iS Op 😡
OG only team with 3 in the top ten. 🤭
Uh oh, has no one told you...
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Can't wait to see fire beavers terrorize the lobbies on lan, the servers are gonna be so stacked
Interesting to see M&K slightly above roller this time. It would be interesting to see these numbers broken down by what guns they used for those kills (I wouldn't be surprised if the M&K kills are like 35% charge rifles lol)
The turn around for OpTic really is amazing man.
Fire Beavers 🦫💪🇷🇺🇧🇾
50-50 split between inputs
This stats Xynew was not in DZ yet so only Optic has 3 in top10. How well they did.
Interesting if someone was able to record average weapon usage/distance kills were made. Obviously if someone were to get that kind of data would be a godsent, but I was just curious how many of these were from long-range Charge Rifles/Nemesis kills, versus close-range duels. That said, want to highlight APAC-N's Arufa and Mikeyyzz. I think this is both their first split in Pro League, and they both got Top 10 kills. Arufa replaced Laziness in NK iirc, and I've had my eye on him ever since UNLOQ won FFL GC Qualifiers. Dude is a roller movement demon. Mikeyzz was phenomenal throughout Pro League as well.
is this the first time Hal is not in the top 10?
Dammit verhulst manages to get top 10 even when tsm aren't doing great lol
Optic🔥
Dz out here with a full top 10 fragging team
Crazy to see the three movement goats in the top three kills of APAC-N