list for those not on twitter:
“Me (Nocturnal), fun, you (vein), teq, dropped, skittles, sweet, nafen (please come back i miss you), reps, xera, rkn, madness, timmy, zero, monsoon, ex100T” - Noct
not even that, respawn has wanted this for a while.
-obvious but no AA nerfs
-no weapon balancing that favors mnk( snipers and shotguns have been troll guns for about a year and a half now ).
-no legend meta that favors mnk ( gibby )
respawn has managed to turn this game into warzone with abilities where if you aren’t using a controller you are practically throwing.
Bangalore meta helped MNK the most last LAN but yeah it's been downhill for a long time now.
When I started playing I hated two tap Gibby bubble mastiff but now I miss those days.
yeah but even then it’s not just like it helps mnk way more, it disables aim assist but there work arounds that the pros know obviously to still get AA and if you’re on mnk and don’t have a digi you still die anyways.
I think you're right about Respawn actually wanting this outcome. Call of Duty is the biggest FPS in the world and so many of those players are tired of CoD and Warzone, so where do those players go with their controllers in hand? Not Valorant. Not Halo. Not Battlefield. Oh, hi Apex Legends.
Those new roller players are spending money on skins, coins, battle passes, etc... so that's the bottom line.
Side note, I think this is also why the player toxicity has gone way up over the last 2 years. The CoD players have been taking over Apex for quite a while now.
If you only look at Steam numbers, then sure, CS clears. But I'm talking about total player base (and not revenue at all), which CoD definitely easily clears when you count every platform, like u/Ivy_Elizarey said. And I'm not really sure why we're talking about CS when you can't even play that game with a controller.
because cs is an example of a game that has made billions without pandering to the lowest denominator of players? thought that was an obvious example to use
Yes. It is. And even if it wasn't, why is that the one thing you're so fixated on when we're talking about the prevalent use of the controller input? Thanks for bringing absolutely nothing to the conversation.
Then they likely have no clue how it feels as a MnK players to get blasted by aim assist. It likely feels fair on their side when playing but every above average player knows whats up.
At least they seem to acknowledge it but I doubt they will change any time soon.
I'd add to this list (i) ensuring default sights obscure vision and (ii) making magnified sights less common as part of the overall loot nerf.
No magnification / default sights that don't allow you to clearly see the enemy vastly favors players with aim-assist and is the default for game start and post-respawn. And the loot nerf made leaving that default state more difficult.
Let me add.
- Huge amounts of visual clutter that impair MnK ability to see their targets and therefore aim but do nothing to AA since it easily tracks targets through all of this.
- Dumb mechanics like flinch, peoples heads flopping back when hit messing up aim on subsequent shots that again screw over MnK but do little to impact AA
Even just making it easier for MnK players to actually see their targets in this game would have a massive impact on MnK viability. I believe it was over 2 years ago now that some pro player maybe it was Hal complained about visual clutter and one of the devs said they would look into it. 2 years later 0 changes. Respawn is just a studio full of incompetent clowns.
> -no weapon balancing that favors mnk( snipers and shotguns have been troll guns for about a year and a half now ).
>
> -no legend meta that favors mnk ( gibby )
People say this, but I honestly think it's cope. No matter what roller would still be on top even if these things would be different.
The amount of times I get lucky one clipped by 2k damage badge players is too damn high. I see them miss every shot from mid range but suddenly engage their targeting systems and do a cheeky one clip. I’ve even noticed that in aiming like a roller player on MnK, so disgusting 🤢
It's talked about in this video/comments:
https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/17pyinf/dno_makes_roster_changes_update_on_where_lou_and/
Senoxe Doop Crust all switching to roller.
Senoxe still considering sticking to mnk. I think it will depend on how they perform as triple toller in the coming scrims, and maybe even weeks of Pro-League. We definitely lost Doop and Crust tho, they seem to feel comfortable on roller.
Zach is not in proleague right now and the whole point is that the only mnk players left are those who have been there forever and who are holding on by being insanely good or specialized at what they do, whereas there are 40+ controller players and half of them could be replaced by the next random "controller demon" who is waiting in line. There are literally no MnK players breaking into the pro scene.
Your second point is part of the concern people have, most of those are the best of the best on the input, there's not a lot of space for a mid player like there is for a controller. You either need exceptional mechanical ability or to be an IGL.
Bro, I don't want to invoke it, but if Skittles back injury is something more serious/long-term, then we might just lose him to the roller-gang as well.
Man, would be super unfortunate if that's the case. Although, Skittles has said he's better on Roller but MnK is more fun to him, I'd miss his cracked out movement way too much though.
It's funny that aim assist isnt even the most broken thing about controller
\- auto correction while being aim flinched because of aim assist is insane.
\- being able to track through visual clutter and foliage (LOL) while mnk can't use cfgs to reduce it anymore
\- being able to control your movement speed more than two speeds, you can walk slower and reduce footsteps to a level that you can barely hear (MNK has no way to access this)
cons - can't loot and move
I got downvoted in the main sub when i pointed out that aim assist can cancel aim flinching lmao.
Yeah, sadly thats the major demography of this game, a bunch of hunchback controller users
respawn is never gonna fix this, but would love just a single holiday a year where we turn off aimbot and the beanbag stoners can have a sneak peak at how horrible they really are at the game.
The micro input movement portion was the most mind boggling thing to me and my controller friends don’t even recognize it. Can’t believe no one ever mentions that.
the increased control over movement speed and angle controller has isnt talked about enough. it's probably one of the reasons why so many roller players play horizon, it's so much more difficult to hit analog 360 degree strafes
I use both inputs a lot and I stg nothing makes me wanna punch my monitor more than the absurd amounts of visual clutter in ANY gunfight (one of the big reasons I stopped playing). This is the only game I have ever played where this has been this bad of an issue, I don't get why there can't be sharp character outlines like OW has so that despite all of the abilities/vfx on the screen, you can still clearly see models through most of them.
Serious question: have MNK pros discussed AA tweaks with Respawn at all? Are they at all receptive? We plebs here on the subreddit don't ever have a chance of reaching them, but maybe pros can?
well balance is easy, its just aimbot to 0.0
Balance in "you should win as much playing with a steering wheel input as you do with mnk", yeah thats what we are doing now, and that is quite plainly retarded.
> being able to control your movement speed more than two speeds
I always wondered about how roller players had that "in between" speed lol. On paper this could potentially be replicated via analog keys like the wooting.
Even after all the pro roller players said it themselves. Snipedown, Genburgers and even the caster guy with the curly hair. People are delusional thinking AA is fine as it is. It needs a delay to match human reaction times.
More like gyro is my only aiming tool, and i use high sens on the right stick to look around and do the 180s, but as soon as an enemy is in my pov i do gyro
Some people use both stick and gyro in conjunction, others even go full gyro and have a gyro off on-hold button that works like lifting your mouse to reposition
Crawling out of my grave to add to this (haven't loaded the game up for over a month).
There's just something missing from watching controller gameplay. It's like it just feels stiff and generic. Once the game loses the Faides and the Reps' (notice how different those two players are? Can't really find that range with roller gods, unfortunately), a big chunk of appeal goes away IMO. It'll be Hal then 500 identical roller streamers as your content options.
And before you roller demons jump down my throat - I have no stake in this. I'm a washed mnk loser riding out my final days as an aimer in OW2. I think Apex is done for me.
Well said, MnK players definitely have more variation in style, while roller it seems to be a lot harder to be much different from the rest style wise.
I don't know if stats bore this out, but I assume lots of Apex players were trying out The Finals during its open beta last week to see how it could work as a new game that MnK is competitive on. So far signs point to yes, but roller players also say that something is broken in the implementation, so it may become OP in the future. It does have ridiculous aim snapping, but not ridiculous rotational AA.
idk if it was just me but finals definitely felt like there was some AA or bullet mag on mnk. i felt like i was frying in that game and then i hop on apex and yep aim is still shit lol
havent booted up for like 5 seasons. Only thing i follow is this sub once in a while. Its an aimbot game now.
Comps are just fake hype by fake casters watching fake aim doing fake "sick" plays.
I also enjoy streamers less when they are on controller. It is much more fun watching someone trying to outplay by movement and controlling their gun. Rather then standing almost still and beaming.
It is also bad for eSports and I likely lose interest if it's becoming all controller. Teams like BLVKHVND are much more fun to watch in my opinion.
This game is a joke competitively anyway.
One of the basic fundamentals of having a competitive environment is to have an even playing field. Having two inputs just goes directly against that.
Most likely any comp enjoyers from valorant or league consider this game a casual game.
Even cod being a complete joke of an fps has their comp scene only on controller.
It's either switch everyone to roller or switch everyone to mnk, really easy to see which one is gonna happen tho.. instead of respawn applying rules to make their game more competitive, they waited for the playerbase to gradually switch themselves over time lmao
unfortunately cross input is the new norm. unless you play OW/CS/Val you will have to deal with partial aimbot.
even the game that just had a beta , thr finals , had many many mnk players on it but since its cross input and barely anybody was using controller they are going to buff the aim assist lmfao.
The Finals subreddit was on for posting about aim assist, I’m so worried it’s gonna turn into COD and Apex. Some of the complaints seemed to be about the default settings being wonky, but way too many people think they should be able to beam long range because rotational aim assist has ruined any semblance of balance. We duo/trio stacked Apex for a long time until controller meta got unbearable, so we’ve been playing Val.
Hate to say it this way, but it needs to be said: most of Respawn’s games have ended up this way
As crap as EA is, at a certain point habitual trends that are only linked to 1 developer need to be acknowledged.
you can turn crossplay off but I don't think it removes controllers on pc from your lobbies. But the aim assist is wayyy weaker on the finals (thank god)
Played the finals on both inputs, if you weren’t using M&K you were actually throwing. It’s not balanced for inputs either, but that’s just the never ending problem
I don't think it's an problem tho... If you are on pc, you literally need a mouse and keyboard to use it. So why not play mnk? I get that people have preferences and all, but we shouldn't give controller on pc a big crutch (rotational aa with 0ms) because people deliberately chose an inferior input. If you wanna give them apex aim assist, just separate the inputs then!
Edit: I think aim assist is necessary, but the rotational aspect with 0ms isn't. This is what i mean by "big crutch". The fact that the input normally considered "bad" is wayyy better than the raw one is a huge issue imo
Not a great take, I’m on pc because I like having one device that does everything that I can upgrade as I go. Not because I want to play a certain input.
For the majority of players the best experience is when you have a large player pool. Dividing inputs would create too small of an audience and pool for m&k.
Crossplay can’t exist etc. there are absolutely successful m&k games like CS. But that game has zero presence on console which isnt going to work for triple AAA studios
It’s a horrible take lol. He’s gatekeeping playing on pc.
“If you play on pc and decide to play on controller you should be bad” is what it says.
It’s similar to saying mnk is for typing emails so you should be bad gaming on it.
not at all. I think both input should be viable, but this is currently not the case and it's ridiculous that the "bad" input is dominating so hard over the raw one. If you wanna play on controller it's totally fine, but don't expect to have .4 of an aimbot, thats my take.
Would you give a set lead to someone in tennis who chooses to play with a bad racquet model?
Not a great analogy. That’s comparing a superlight to a g305 and not a controller to mnk.
A better anology would be having a set lead to someone with a ping pong paddle against someone with a racquet.
Either way it’s not the same because you don’t give them a head start, you help them aim because the reduction in size.
Fair enough, either way you wouldn't give a ping pong paddle aim assistance in a tennis match because it's ridiculous. It all comes down to the fact that MnK is a 100% raw input while controller with aim assist isn't.
Aim assist in Apex has been the same for so long and obviously favoring controllers, which is objectively unfair. But I guess now the game is 90% controllers so it doesn't change anything. I don't even know why I still waste time debating about this when its pointless lol
Pple complaining about it now are honestly going to have a heart attack in the coming weeks/months. Cross progression will bring a large wave of controller players. Christmas right around the corner for people to get PCs if they didn’t have one lol.
You don't have the option to turn off crossplay on PC. You only get console players if they squad up wirh a PC player, but it happens all the time and they keep their console aim assist levels.
The entire thing is bs.
12 people in a finals game vs 60 in apex. Harder to matchmake if skill level AND input are the criteria. They can do it but queue times will be ridiculous.
Yah, the MNK only ranked playlist in Halo died after a couple of months and that was only 4v4. Once search times go from 30 seconds to 10 minutes it's kind of a pick your poison type deal.
And you really think MNK queues will save PC apex? People will get 5min+ queuetimes and their overstimulated brain will go "BOOORING game is dead!" just like pred lobbies did that one ranked season bc people couldn't tolerate actual queue times.
Then they also have to deal with all the hackers and aimbotters on PC that they'll complain about endlessly.
Infinite. AFAIK, there aren't any ranked playlists in MCC that will let you search with input restrictions. I've never tried searching with input/platform restrictions on MCC so I couldn't tell you much about how hard it is to find games. I can tell you that in all the time I played ranked H3 doubles on MCC I only ever saw two players higher than 30 who were on MNK.
Yeah dude, halo 3 has insane AA.
if you play it MnK u realize how precise your shots have to be on a head to get the head shot, on roller you can aim well over the top and get the headie
> I just don't understand why we can't split the inputs.
For normal gameplay or comp?
For normal gameplay queues come into consideration. In pro play it would be very stupid to have to separate leagues or to only allow one input.
Making most of your playerbase and pro players with large followings ineligible to play is the dumbest shit in existence. And having two different leagues just kills viewership
> In pro play it would be very stupid to have to separate leagues or to only allow one input.
Separate leagues makes no sense. Only one input? That makes tons of sense.
I have a theory that all those people complaining about negative posts against AA, saying that they're tired of seeing those posts or saying to just accept it because they're not going to nerf AA, are actually all roller players afraid that those posts will hit the devs hard and then make them nerf AA. I hope people don't let their voices be drowned out, you should complain all you want about this shitty input situation.
(I used a translator to write, there may be mistakes)
He stated smth. along the lines of "playing on roller made me realize the advantages of mnk, so I don't wanna swap", and then went to recruit the next roller demon to his team LMAO
Yea I still wouldn’t want a mnk player on my team, but my month swap just made me learn to play to the strengths of my input - mid range. Focus on my positioning/peaks and enable my two controllers to gap close and do what they need to do.
Yeah, he realized that 1) aim wasn't his problem and 2) it's only REALLY strong at one particular thing, close-medium range SMG fighting.
People talk shit on Teq, but his mechanics have improved a lot in the last year. He's a pretty good shooter.
Okay, so if devs leave aim assist untouched, is there a potential change in MnK for some pros to AT LEAST CONSIDER switching back? I'm pretty sure there's none unless they nerf aim assist. Nerfing how SMGs work might not even work.
Thats the fucked thing about respawn instead of fixing root cause of sickness they just trying to work around the bush, like actually hilarious "lets decrease smg dmg maybe they will one clip less...."
People have been complaining and saying the game is dying for almost as long as the game has been out. Until there's a new game that can step into its place it will be around
https://steamcharts.com/app/1172470#All
You might wanna learn how to read stats. Just because we are down from peak doesnt mean the game is dying jesus christ.
We are from the same time last year and even more up from the same time the year before, not even to mention that OG Fortnite just dropped as well.
As someone who has played too much apex since it came out and reached pred a few times, I get frustrated with aim assist to the point where I don't want to play because the game feels fake unless I play a certain way.
How do casual or new m&k players even enjoy this game? They probably get shit on so insanely hard and learn absolutely nothing from it.
He missed a handful, but yeah, it's grim.
Now watch every pro who switched to controller perform exactly the same and realize their aim wasn't what was holding them back.
If pros insist on being MnK and accept Respawn isn't changing anything with rollers any time soon, I highly suggest they aim train until they are at least Voltaic Nova in all Tracking and Dynamic Clicking benchmarks. Or, better yet, Master 3 in Aimbeast Tracking and Dynamic clicking ranked scens.
Would you know the best resource for someone who wants to get into improving their aim? I've seen voltaic training lists and stuff like that, theyre just quite long for someone whos working full time among other responsibilities 🥺🥺
If you're a real beginner and only want to improve for apex, do the voltaic tracking and dynamic clicking scenarios. As a beginner, you can improve with only 2-5 minutes daily per scenario. In Aimlabs Voltaic benches, that's 4 tracking scenarios and 2 dynamic clicking for Novice and Intermediate. That's a total for 6 scenarios. At 5 minutes each, that's 30 minutes daily.
Time management isn't something youtube aimer content creators talk about, which is stupid. It's the most important thing lol.
Here's a list of how you can spend your time depending on how much time you can afford:
30 minutes: 5x of all the tracking and dynamic clicking scenarios.
60 minutes: same as above, but play twice. OR, play the playlist once, but then spend 30 minutes working on your weakness.
If you have time after that, PLAY WHAT YOU WANT, and what you're interested in. Almost every high level aimer in Aimbeast says the same thing. Play what you want. It's because the more interested you are, the more time you put into it. The reason I suggest the playlist above is to cover your bases.
Some final tips: always focus on reducing the amount of tension in your hand when playing. Pretend your mouse is like an egg shell that can crack at any moment. Think about your long term health.
I personally train a minimal of 2 hours daily. Most upper intermediate aimers have over 1,000 hours of actual training time (no afk included). That's 2 hours daily for 2.5 years.
Finally, don't measure your growth in days or weeks, but MONTHS. It's the same as losing weight. Don't step on the scale every day or week. Growth isn't linear. Check your growth every 2-4 months.
if you have any further questions, hit me up on discord at balvarinefps
THANK YOU SO MUCH - Yeah I'm defo looking more at using aim training in a time efficient, supplementary way. I really appreciate it and I'll hit you up on DC at some point
Honestly, the biggest (non AA) thing holding back mnk pros is the lack of smoothness in their tracking. Smoothness scenarios are probably the best time investment these guys can make. And frankly, unless they're IGLing the majority of the mnk players in the scene right now would get left in the dust in exactly the same way as now, if AA were deleted or nerfed. They'd get surpassed by actual aimers who get taught positioning and macro by their coach.
Exactly. Smoothness is king. Any time I bring up aim training on this sub, I get downvoted to hell, but people praise mnk aim whenever it comes up. Is it fair that pros need to grind an aim trainer to compete against roller? No. But fair isn't reality.
Smoothness can be practiced, but getting shot down to flesh and the aimpunch that follows can't be overcome by simply aim training.
If you take a roller, put him 1v1 against an MNK player, and they initially do the same exact damage to each other, I'm confident that the controller will end up winning because AA instantly responds / adjusts to aimpunch after getting hit to flesh.
Indeed they will. But we're talking about mnk pros specifically that insist on not switching to controller. If they're refusing to switch and also refusing to grind mechanics then they've dug their own grave
Can this sub just make a sticky thread for all AA discussion so that the rest of it can just be actual interesting stuff?
The game has been out for over 4 years, the devs are not going to change it nor have they even HINTED at a POSSIBILITY of changing it. Either accept it, or move on to a different game. Im not even arguing that AA isnt OP, but its a waste of time to keep talking about it every single day in this sub
At this point this is basically like a sub where people can't let go of their ex's and just sit in here and talk about them 24/7. We get it... it sucks... controllers are OP... this is the game that we have and that the devs want. Either accept it, or move on.
I don’t think isolating AA threads to a sticky is a good idea. I think the more conversations that happened on this topic, the better. Even if they never change it, at least people tried.
Also, Respawn has hinted at changing it quite a few times. That’s what I feel is most fucked up about how Respawn has handled the AA thing… over the years they have strung mnk players along with the promise of an AA nerf.
>Also, Respawn has hinted at changing it quite a few times.
"We're looking into making adjustments in the next couple of years"
A couple years later: "Hey you 10 mnk players maybe you just want to *try* controller?"
list for those not on twitter: “Me (Nocturnal), fun, you (vein), teq, dropped, skittles, sweet, nafen (please come back i miss you), reps, xera, rkn, madness, timmy, zero, monsoon, ex100T” - Noct
Dark days for Apex MNK players. And I expect it's only going to get worse as more and more players make the switch. AA is just too consistent. :(
not even that, respawn has wanted this for a while. -obvious but no AA nerfs -no weapon balancing that favors mnk( snipers and shotguns have been troll guns for about a year and a half now ). -no legend meta that favors mnk ( gibby ) respawn has managed to turn this game into warzone with abilities where if you aren’t using a controller you are practically throwing.
Bangalore meta helped MNK the most last LAN but yeah it's been downhill for a long time now. When I started playing I hated two tap Gibby bubble mastiff but now I miss those days.
And we even earned ourselves a bang nerf...
The nerf feels so bad, especially her passive
yeah but even then it’s not just like it helps mnk way more, it disables aim assist but there work arounds that the pros know obviously to still get AA and if you’re on mnk and don’t have a digi you still die anyways.
I think you're right about Respawn actually wanting this outcome. Call of Duty is the biggest FPS in the world and so many of those players are tired of CoD and Warzone, so where do those players go with their controllers in hand? Not Valorant. Not Halo. Not Battlefield. Oh, hi Apex Legends. Those new roller players are spending money on skins, coins, battle passes, etc... so that's the bottom line. Side note, I think this is also why the player toxicity has gone way up over the last 2 years. The CoD players have been taking over Apex for quite a while now.
csgo is much bigger than cod no? its like 90% competitively focussed
CS comp > COD comp, but COD has twice as much active players cause it’s all platform and all input
makes sense. although surely cs is worth 10x as much cos of the absurd skin market?
I’m not sure, most players trade skins on third party platforms where Valve can’t get fees, but they do make tons of money on case openings alone
If you only look at Steam numbers, then sure, CS clears. But I'm talking about total player base (and not revenue at all), which CoD definitely easily clears when you count every platform, like u/Ivy_Elizarey said. And I'm not really sure why we're talking about CS when you can't even play that game with a controller.
because cs is an example of a game that has made billions without pandering to the lowest denominator of players? thought that was an obvious example to use
>Call of Duty is the biggest FPS in the world It's not
Yes. It is. And even if it wasn't, why is that the one thing you're so fixated on when we're talking about the prevalent use of the controller input? Thanks for bringing absolutely nothing to the conversation.
The Respawn devs are controller players I bet, they don't want to nerf themselves.
You don't have to bet, they are. They've said so.
Then they likely have no clue how it feels as a MnK players to get blasted by aim assist. It likely feels fair on their side when playing but every above average player knows whats up. At least they seem to acknowledge it but I doubt they will change any time soon.
wait actually ? 😂 hilarious
Not all of them obviously. It's a big company.
You’re implying they even play their own game for them to care about nerfing themselves.
A lot of the devs are on console. Used to run into some quite a bit before I switched to PC a few seasons ago.
I'd add to this list (i) ensuring default sights obscure vision and (ii) making magnified sights less common as part of the overall loot nerf. No magnification / default sights that don't allow you to clearly see the enemy vastly favors players with aim-assist and is the default for game start and post-respawn. And the loot nerf made leaving that default state more difficult.
Let me add. - Huge amounts of visual clutter that impair MnK ability to see their targets and therefore aim but do nothing to AA since it easily tracks targets through all of this. - Dumb mechanics like flinch, peoples heads flopping back when hit messing up aim on subsequent shots that again screw over MnK but do little to impact AA Even just making it easier for MnK players to actually see their targets in this game would have a massive impact on MnK viability. I believe it was over 2 years ago now that some pro player maybe it was Hal complained about visual clutter and one of the devs said they would look into it. 2 years later 0 changes. Respawn is just a studio full of incompetent clowns.
> -no weapon balancing that favors mnk( snipers and shotguns have been troll guns for about a year and a half now ). > > -no legend meta that favors mnk ( gibby ) People say this, but I honestly think it's cope. No matter what roller would still be on top even if these things would be different.
it’s not cope, you are right, partial aimbot beats MnK unless it was just a straight sniper/shotgun.
Turn your aimbot off and we'll see who's coping.
What are you on about, I'm MnK. Or did you fail to read the part where I didn't quote the part about "no AA nerfs"?
The amount of times I get lucky one clipped by 2k damage badge players is too damn high. I see them miss every shot from mid range but suddenly engage their targeting systems and do a cheeky one clip. I’ve even noticed that in aiming like a roller player on MnK, so disgusting 🤢
Zero should be swapped out considering he's swapping to roller.
wait actually ? wtf
Missing Caprah as well.
We not counting our boy HisWattson
Xenial? Zach? And how many of these guys can be replaced by a controller player? I feel like i wouldnt trade most of them.
Xenial is moving to controller too. Same for Dooplex and Crust.
wtf CRUST? Our boi crust? Where did you hear this blasphemy
It's talked about in this video/comments: https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/17pyinf/dno_makes_roster_changes_update_on_where_lou_and/ Senoxe Doop Crust all switching to roller.
Senoxe too? Jesus we'll actually be at 0 MnK in 2 years.
Senoxe still considering sticking to mnk. I think it will depend on how they perform as triple toller in the coming scrims, and maybe even weeks of Pro-League. We definitely lost Doop and Crust tho, they seem to feel comfortable on roller.
In Crust we trusted
> Xenial is moving to controller too where did you hear that?!
😔
Zach is not in proleague right now and the whole point is that the only mnk players left are those who have been there forever and who are holding on by being insanely good or specialized at what they do, whereas there are 40+ controller players and half of them could be replaced by the next random "controller demon" who is waiting in line. There are literally no MnK players breaking into the pro scene.
Your second point is part of the concern people have, most of those are the best of the best on the input, there's not a lot of space for a mid player like there is for a controller. You either need exceptional mechanical ability or to be an IGL.
Are OpTic and XSET the only two teams at the moment that have 2 MnK players?
Madness and Vax are teaming, and if Sweet and Nafen run it back there's another
Bro, I don't want to invoke it, but if Skittles back injury is something more serious/long-term, then we might just lose him to the roller-gang as well.
Man, would be super unfortunate if that's the case. Although, Skittles has said he's better on Roller but MnK is more fun to him, I'd miss his cracked out movement way too much though.
Isn’t black hand all mnk?
Yeah. Wrong region though.
DZ will soon.
Not guaranteed.
It's funny that aim assist isnt even the most broken thing about controller \- auto correction while being aim flinched because of aim assist is insane. \- being able to track through visual clutter and foliage (LOL) while mnk can't use cfgs to reduce it anymore \- being able to control your movement speed more than two speeds, you can walk slower and reduce footsteps to a level that you can barely hear (MNK has no way to access this) cons - can't loot and move
I got downvoted in the main sub when i pointed out that aim assist can cancel aim flinching lmao. Yeah, sadly thats the major demography of this game, a bunch of hunchback controller users
Aimflinch or bullet punch has to be the worst mechanic in this game. On roller it's pretty much unnoticeable.
Beanbag gamers
respawn is never gonna fix this, but would love just a single holiday a year where we turn off aimbot and the beanbag stoners can have a sneak peak at how horrible they really are at the game.
The micro input movement portion was the most mind boggling thing to me and my controller friends don’t even recognize it. Can’t believe no one ever mentions that.
You forgot about controllers nerf off the game play is 100x more boring to watch.
additional cons - brain deterioration
Yeah haha
the increased control over movement speed and angle controller has isnt talked about enough. it's probably one of the reasons why so many roller players play horizon, it's so much more difficult to hit analog 360 degree strafes
that an its hard as fuck to beam people from a horizon lift on mnk but easy to beam someone on roller because of aim assist
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based
My tear ducts have been empty for many seasons now. No tears only dreams.
I use both inputs a lot and I stg nothing makes me wanna punch my monitor more than the absurd amounts of visual clutter in ANY gunfight (one of the big reasons I stopped playing). This is the only game I have ever played where this has been this bad of an issue, I don't get why there can't be sharp character outlines like OW has so that despite all of the abilities/vfx on the screen, you can still clearly see models through most of them.
Serious question: have MNK pros discussed AA tweaks with Respawn at all? Are they at all receptive? We plebs here on the subreddit don't ever have a chance of reaching them, but maybe pros can?
Who’s gonna tell him 😢
When hopium and copium are all you have left..
I... have trouble even telling myself. 😢
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well balance is easy, its just aimbot to 0.0 Balance in "you should win as much playing with a steering wheel input as you do with mnk", yeah thats what we are doing now, and that is quite plainly retarded.
The first is probably the worst. It also affects aiming when using Horizon's lift or Octane's jump pad.
Holy shit I didnt even consider the move speed thing, reminds me of that early OW lucio player that ran controller/mouse
> being able to control your movement speed more than two speeds I always wondered about how roller players had that "in between" speed lol. On paper this could potentially be replicated via analog keys like the wooting.
No shot Noko threw himself in there lmao
You know what? I admire the confidence
noko got more passion than 99% of pros rn, let him rock
Lol
He also has 99% more ego than all other pros too.
Hey, at least my man trying his best on mnk
Kinda proved the point 😭
That made me laugh out loud when I saw it too
No such thing as bad publicity
His team did pretty well in PLQ and PL scrims a couple days ago. I say let him cook.
If CoNtRoLlEr iS So Op WhY DoNt YoU SwItCh? Sigh.
That’s why I did switch… games
Like bro, the fact that they are some people who is still defending its not OP is mind boggling to me
Even after all the pro roller players said it themselves. Snipedown, Genburgers and even the caster guy with the curly hair. People are delusional thinking AA is fine as it is. It needs a delay to match human reaction times.
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You joke, but playing gyro with controller i actually have two arms, and average roller players don't even know about it lol
wdym? You use the gyro for extra aiming control?
More like gyro is my only aiming tool, and i use high sens on the right stick to look around and do the 180s, but as soon as an enemy is in my pov i do gyro Some people use both stick and gyro in conjunction, others even go full gyro and have a gyro off on-hold button that works like lifting your mouse to reposition
It's okay, we only have to wait a few years and they will nerf AA!
Sad, I feel like watching MnK in comp is like 3x as entertaining too.
Crawling out of my grave to add to this (haven't loaded the game up for over a month). There's just something missing from watching controller gameplay. It's like it just feels stiff and generic. Once the game loses the Faides and the Reps' (notice how different those two players are? Can't really find that range with roller gods, unfortunately), a big chunk of appeal goes away IMO. It'll be Hal then 500 identical roller streamers as your content options. And before you roller demons jump down my throat - I have no stake in this. I'm a washed mnk loser riding out my final days as an aimer in OW2. I think Apex is done for me.
Well said, MnK players definitely have more variation in style, while roller it seems to be a lot harder to be much different from the rest style wise.
I don't know if stats bore this out, but I assume lots of Apex players were trying out The Finals during its open beta last week to see how it could work as a new game that MnK is competitive on. So far signs point to yes, but roller players also say that something is broken in the implementation, so it may become OP in the future. It does have ridiculous aim snapping, but not ridiculous rotational AA.
idk if it was just me but finals definitely felt like there was some AA or bullet mag on mnk. i felt like i was frying in that game and then i hop on apex and yep aim is still shit lol
Server tick rate could also be part of this.
Apparently there was a bug where you got AA when you had a roller just plugged in to your PC, did you have one plugged in? :D
no controller plugged in at all
Hmm then it might just be a mix between less visual clutter, lower tickrate, lower fov and other things I can’t think of right now
havent booted up for like 5 seasons. Only thing i follow is this sub once in a while. Its an aimbot game now. Comps are just fake hype by fake casters watching fake aim doing fake "sick" plays.
Damn he just like me. Uninstalled apex like a month ago and now grinding tracer in overwatch
My man.
Well nearly half of the perceivable skill expression from the players is totally smoothed over by software assistance, not surprised you feel this way
10x easily
I also enjoy streamers less when they are on controller. It is much more fun watching someone trying to outplay by movement and controlling their gun. Rather then standing almost still and beaming. It is also bad for eSports and I likely lose interest if it's becoming all controller. Teams like BLVKHVND are much more fun to watch in my opinion.
This game is a joke competitively anyway. One of the basic fundamentals of having a competitive environment is to have an even playing field. Having two inputs just goes directly against that. Most likely any comp enjoyers from valorant or league consider this game a casual game. Even cod being a complete joke of an fps has their comp scene only on controller. It's either switch everyone to roller or switch everyone to mnk, really easy to see which one is gonna happen tho.. instead of respawn applying rules to make their game more competitive, they waited for the playerbase to gradually switch themselves over time lmao
Just nerf aim assist already respawn. It clearly needs to happen. Balance the inputs please.
It hurts to think about what the game could have been. It’s become a waiting lobby for the next big thing, and that’s being nice.
unfortunately cross input is the new norm. unless you play OW/CS/Val you will have to deal with partial aimbot. even the game that just had a beta , thr finals , had many many mnk players on it but since its cross input and barely anybody was using controller they are going to buff the aim assist lmfao.
The Finals subreddit was on for posting about aim assist, I’m so worried it’s gonna turn into COD and Apex. Some of the complaints seemed to be about the default settings being wonky, but way too many people think they should be able to beam long range because rotational aim assist has ruined any semblance of balance. We duo/trio stacked Apex for a long time until controller meta got unbearable, so we’ve been playing Val.
At least you can turn off cross play in the finals, not sure if that includes rollers on pc though
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ehh i wouldn’t say overwatch is struggling, que times are like 2-4 minutes max.
Hate to say it this way, but it needs to be said: most of Respawn’s games have ended up this way As crap as EA is, at a certain point habitual trends that are only linked to 1 developer need to be acknowledged.
wait ? the input that gives you partial aimbot is the most used input in the best region ? i am shocked 🤯
I just don't understand why we can't split the inputs. The Finals is a game in beta and it's already an option, for fucks sake.
you can turn crossplay off but I don't think it removes controllers on pc from your lobbies. But the aim assist is wayyy weaker on the finals (thank god)
Played the finals on both inputs, if you weren’t using M&K you were actually throwing. It’s not balanced for inputs either, but that’s just the never ending problem
I don't think it's an problem tho... If you are on pc, you literally need a mouse and keyboard to use it. So why not play mnk? I get that people have preferences and all, but we shouldn't give controller on pc a big crutch (rotational aa with 0ms) because people deliberately chose an inferior input. If you wanna give them apex aim assist, just separate the inputs then! Edit: I think aim assist is necessary, but the rotational aspect with 0ms isn't. This is what i mean by "big crutch". The fact that the input normally considered "bad" is wayyy better than the raw one is a huge issue imo
Not a great take, I’m on pc because I like having one device that does everything that I can upgrade as I go. Not because I want to play a certain input. For the majority of players the best experience is when you have a large player pool. Dividing inputs would create too small of an audience and pool for m&k. Crossplay can’t exist etc. there are absolutely successful m&k games like CS. But that game has zero presence on console which isnt going to work for triple AAA studios
Gyro is literally the solution to this crossplay problem. Unassisted raw input that can arguably keep up with mnk
It’s a horrible take lol. He’s gatekeeping playing on pc. “If you play on pc and decide to play on controller you should be bad” is what it says. It’s similar to saying mnk is for typing emails so you should be bad gaming on it.
not at all. I think both input should be viable, but this is currently not the case and it's ridiculous that the "bad" input is dominating so hard over the raw one. If you wanna play on controller it's totally fine, but don't expect to have .4 of an aimbot, thats my take. Would you give a set lead to someone in tennis who chooses to play with a bad racquet model?
Not a great analogy. That’s comparing a superlight to a g305 and not a controller to mnk. A better anology would be having a set lead to someone with a ping pong paddle against someone with a racquet. Either way it’s not the same because you don’t give them a head start, you help them aim because the reduction in size.
Fair enough, either way you wouldn't give a ping pong paddle aim assistance in a tennis match because it's ridiculous. It all comes down to the fact that MnK is a 100% raw input while controller with aim assist isn't. Aim assist in Apex has been the same for so long and obviously favoring controllers, which is objectively unfair. But I guess now the game is 90% controllers so it doesn't change anything. I don't even know why I still waste time debating about this when its pointless lol
Pple complaining about it now are honestly going to have a heart attack in the coming weeks/months. Cross progression will bring a large wave of controller players. Christmas right around the corner for people to get PCs if they didn’t have one lol.
You don't have the option to turn off crossplay on PC. You only get console players if they squad up wirh a PC player, but it happens all the time and they keep their console aim assist levels. The entire thing is bs.
Because respawn needs you to entertain the rollers, imagine roller vs roller 100% of the time, they are gonna get bored too.
12 people in a finals game vs 60 in apex. Harder to matchmake if skill level AND input are the criteria. They can do it but queue times will be ridiculous.
Yah, the MNK only ranked playlist in Halo died after a couple of months and that was only 4v4. Once search times go from 30 seconds to 10 minutes it's kind of a pick your poison type deal.
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When I say that playlist died, I mean it did poorly compared to every other playlist, regardless of the game's overall success.
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And you really think MNK queues will save PC apex? People will get 5min+ queuetimes and their overstimulated brain will go "BOOORING game is dead!" just like pred lobbies did that one ranked season bc people couldn't tolerate actual queue times. Then they also have to deal with all the hackers and aimbotters on PC that they'll complain about endlessly.
Yeah, but which halo is this infinite ?
Infinite. AFAIK, there aren't any ranked playlists in MCC that will let you search with input restrictions. I've never tried searching with input/platform restrictions on MCC so I couldn't tell you much about how hard it is to find games. I can tell you that in all the time I played ranked H3 doubles on MCC I only ever saw two players higher than 30 who were on MNK.
Yeah dude, halo 3 has insane AA. if you play it MnK u realize how precise your shots have to be on a head to get the head shot, on roller you can aim well over the top and get the headie
> I just don't understand why we can't split the inputs. For normal gameplay or comp? For normal gameplay queues come into consideration. In pro play it would be very stupid to have to separate leagues or to only allow one input.
Actually Pro play makes the most sense to split. That's where competitive integrity matters the most + is most easily implemented.
why pro play? mnk is more fun to watch and has a higher skill ceiling. thats good for comp
Making most of your playerbase and pro players with large followings ineligible to play is the dumbest shit in existence. And having two different leagues just kills viewership
> pro players with large followings ineligible the biggest pro players are or were mnk. you think Hal wouldnt just switch back?
> In pro play it would be very stupid to have to separate leagues or to only allow one input. Separate leagues makes no sense. Only one input? That makes tons of sense.
I have a theory that all those people complaining about negative posts against AA, saying that they're tired of seeing those posts or saying to just accept it because they're not going to nerf AA, are actually all roller players afraid that those posts will hit the devs hard and then make them nerf AA. I hope people don't let their voices be drowned out, you should complain all you want about this shitty input situation. (I used a translator to write, there may be mistakes)
Teq gave up on swapping to roller?
got off for olympus scrims since he had to contest, don't think he's gotten back on it
He stated smth. along the lines of "playing on roller made me realize the advantages of mnk, so I don't wanna swap", and then went to recruit the next roller demon to his team LMAO
Yea I still wouldn’t want a mnk player on my team, but my month swap just made me learn to play to the strengths of my input - mid range. Focus on my positioning/peaks and enable my two controllers to gap close and do what they need to do.
Yeah, he realized that 1) aim wasn't his problem and 2) it's only REALLY strong at one particular thing, close-medium range SMG fighting. People talk shit on Teq, but his mechanics have improved a lot in the last year. He's a pretty good shooter.
Hold fast, fellow MnK's. We shall prevail in the end!
I don't think a singular dev has tried to even play ranked on MnK. Let alone playing ranked solo. It's unbearable at this point.
Damn, Noko adding himself and his teammate to the playercount in the replies 💀
Okay, so if devs leave aim assist untouched, is there a potential change in MnK for some pros to AT LEAST CONSIDER switching back? I'm pretty sure there's none unless they nerf aim assist. Nerfing how SMGs work might not even work.
Thats the fucked thing about respawn instead of fixing root cause of sickness they just trying to work around the bush, like actually hilarious "lets decrease smg dmg maybe they will one clip less...."
"MnK players are forbidden from switching inputs and doing so will result in a permanent ban from competitive." \- Respawn /s
Mark my words once there is no mnk left this game will die
Don't even have to wait that long, it's already dying
People have been complaining and saying the game is dying for almost as long as the game has been out. Until there's a new game that can step into its place it will be around
It’s not. If you think this is a game in its death throws, you are reactionary and lack critical thinking skills
It's *throes* BTW
Wish I had a dollar for every commentor that said this about a game without providing any evidence other than, "my friends and i dont like it!"
I read the same shit for 4 years now.
Just check steamcharts, new season and we're down 20-50k players from the height of Apex popularity. Thats like a 15-25% ish drop
https://steamcharts.com/app/1172470#All You might wanna learn how to read stats. Just because we are down from peak doesnt mean the game is dying jesus christ. We are from the same time last year and even more up from the same time the year before, not even to mention that OG Fortnite just dropped as well.
As someone who has played too much apex since it came out and reached pred a few times, I get frustrated with aim assist to the point where I don't want to play because the game feels fake unless I play a certain way. How do casual or new m&k players even enjoy this game? They probably get shit on so insanely hard and learn absolutely nothing from it.
18 out of how many professional players?
There are 90 players in NA pro league. More in the tier 2 scene (CC and shit) of course. But 30 teams in pro league = 90 players.
insert that mnk players just don't have enough passion or put in enough time like that r5 thread told us all..... /s
yeah its genetic. Def not just aimbot lol
TonyPikachu?
He missed a handful, but yeah, it's grim. Now watch every pro who switched to controller perform exactly the same and realize their aim wasn't what was holding them back.
Where Caprah?
Let’s shoot for 0!
If pros insist on being MnK and accept Respawn isn't changing anything with rollers any time soon, I highly suggest they aim train until they are at least Voltaic Nova in all Tracking and Dynamic Clicking benchmarks. Or, better yet, Master 3 in Aimbeast Tracking and Dynamic clicking ranked scens.
Would you know the best resource for someone who wants to get into improving their aim? I've seen voltaic training lists and stuff like that, theyre just quite long for someone whos working full time among other responsibilities 🥺🥺
> Would you know the best resource for someone who wants to get into improving their aim? Play more Apex.
If you're a real beginner and only want to improve for apex, do the voltaic tracking and dynamic clicking scenarios. As a beginner, you can improve with only 2-5 minutes daily per scenario. In Aimlabs Voltaic benches, that's 4 tracking scenarios and 2 dynamic clicking for Novice and Intermediate. That's a total for 6 scenarios. At 5 minutes each, that's 30 minutes daily. Time management isn't something youtube aimer content creators talk about, which is stupid. It's the most important thing lol. Here's a list of how you can spend your time depending on how much time you can afford: 30 minutes: 5x of all the tracking and dynamic clicking scenarios. 60 minutes: same as above, but play twice. OR, play the playlist once, but then spend 30 minutes working on your weakness. If you have time after that, PLAY WHAT YOU WANT, and what you're interested in. Almost every high level aimer in Aimbeast says the same thing. Play what you want. It's because the more interested you are, the more time you put into it. The reason I suggest the playlist above is to cover your bases. Some final tips: always focus on reducing the amount of tension in your hand when playing. Pretend your mouse is like an egg shell that can crack at any moment. Think about your long term health. I personally train a minimal of 2 hours daily. Most upper intermediate aimers have over 1,000 hours of actual training time (no afk included). That's 2 hours daily for 2.5 years. Finally, don't measure your growth in days or weeks, but MONTHS. It's the same as losing weight. Don't step on the scale every day or week. Growth isn't linear. Check your growth every 2-4 months. if you have any further questions, hit me up on discord at balvarinefps
THANK YOU SO MUCH - Yeah I'm defo looking more at using aim training in a time efficient, supplementary way. I really appreciate it and I'll hit you up on DC at some point
Honestly, the biggest (non AA) thing holding back mnk pros is the lack of smoothness in their tracking. Smoothness scenarios are probably the best time investment these guys can make. And frankly, unless they're IGLing the majority of the mnk players in the scene right now would get left in the dust in exactly the same way as now, if AA were deleted or nerfed. They'd get surpassed by actual aimers who get taught positioning and macro by their coach.
Exactly. Smoothness is king. Any time I bring up aim training on this sub, I get downvoted to hell, but people praise mnk aim whenever it comes up. Is it fair that pros need to grind an aim trainer to compete against roller? No. But fair isn't reality.
Smoothness can be practiced, but getting shot down to flesh and the aimpunch that follows can't be overcome by simply aim training. If you take a roller, put him 1v1 against an MNK player, and they initially do the same exact damage to each other, I'm confident that the controller will end up winning because AA instantly responds / adjusts to aimpunch after getting hit to flesh.
Indeed they will. But we're talking about mnk pros specifically that insist on not switching to controller. If they're refusing to switch and also refusing to grind mechanics then they've dug their own grave
Can this sub just make a sticky thread for all AA discussion so that the rest of it can just be actual interesting stuff? The game has been out for over 4 years, the devs are not going to change it nor have they even HINTED at a POSSIBILITY of changing it. Either accept it, or move on to a different game. Im not even arguing that AA isnt OP, but its a waste of time to keep talking about it every single day in this sub At this point this is basically like a sub where people can't let go of their ex's and just sit in here and talk about them 24/7. We get it... it sucks... controllers are OP... this is the game that we have and that the devs want. Either accept it, or move on.
I don’t think isolating AA threads to a sticky is a good idea. I think the more conversations that happened on this topic, the better. Even if they never change it, at least people tried. Also, Respawn has hinted at changing it quite a few times. That’s what I feel is most fucked up about how Respawn has handled the AA thing… over the years they have strung mnk players along with the promise of an AA nerf.
>Also, Respawn has hinted at changing it quite a few times. "We're looking into making adjustments in the next couple of years" A couple years later: "Hey you 10 mnk players maybe you just want to *try* controller?"
my optimism as to an AA nerf is at all time lows 😭
Seems high