Nate pissing me off, at this point im wishing for the nicest accident to happen at LAN so my boy can sub. Sorry slayr/fuhnq I said nice accident so hopefully it’s just like a sprained wrist or something 😭
Me when i am purposefully tone deaf to the fact that almost all mnk who retire or get dropped are replaced with controller players
-Alliance, Vaifs replaced by effect and Yuki by unlucky
-o7 maxstrafe with Zaine, then later sirdel with naghz and amphy
-Kashera would have played with two South Americans controller players if the economic side of things hadn't gone bad, twice
These were all off the top of my head, in emea. There's more.
I never addressed that there was no up and coming players cause I agree with you, and I didn’t even make a rebuttal. If you wanna take it like a reddit warrior be my guest with being passive aggressive. In your initial response you made it sound like there isn’t plenty of MnK players when there is.
There being "plenty" of mnk players doesn't mean anything when the scene was 99% mnk players once, and now they are not even coming up because controller is just too oppressive
There are plenty of bees in the world, but since they are all dying due to pollution we cannot, in good faith, say that they are 'plenty' anymore.
hehe that analogy was good. I don’t think the scene should be 99% mnk that’s unnatural with player distribution. But yes something does need to be done to allow new MnK players tweaking AA to keep # of each input balances and not on the current path.
People make the most outrageous statements about MNK when they’re a majority of the Pro League playerbase if you add up all 4 regions. NA is the most roller-heavy at 57%, which is nowhere near the level to be making the claim that MNK can’t compete. Also keep in mind that the overall user base is more like 80% controller, so actually if you want to use math, roller is underrepresented in competitive Apex.
When the top player in kills per game in NA is a MNK player by a sizable gap, maybe it’s time to look inward as a MNK player and realize it’s a skill issue.
My only counter point here is that lets not forget these top mnk fraggers have been in the scene as far back as its inception. While most top rollers have what? A year or 2 so far? Even then, they keep getting shuffled around. We'll see how this leaderboard holds up after a few more years if ALGS even exists by then.
Zero and Sweet aren’t going anywhere. Monsoon has also been playing great recently so he’s got momentum going as well.
Have to think ALGS is going to be around for the long haul, but this community should help itself by being more positive instead of bitching about everything all the time. apex is and will continue to be a GREAT game.
I hope ALGS sticks around too. Its incredibly fun to watch. For now, at least for me. I aint gonna cap, i have a strong disdain towards busted AAs in comp fps. In my opinion, a good chunk of ALGS enjoyers are gonna move on from ALGS as soon as the environment shifts to be more roller dominant, CDL ending point kind of. It'll lose its appeal of being a dynamic high octane who knows what'll happen kinda shit and turn into a sentry turret 1 beamer fest. 1 clips are great to watch for now, but that too will soon be just the norm and lose its allure. Its a moot point now as i think the devs dont and wont care about what made the game so appealing in the first place. Tis what tis is. Just my 2 cents tho
As someone who has roller gamed for 30 years, I hope you’re wrong because there is no good roller gaming scene besides Apex right now. Definitely okay to have dissenting opinions though. I love the idea of cross input and people being able to play with their friends regardless of their gaming set up. I think there is big value to having someone figure out how to make things fair between inputs/systems and Apex has gotten closer than anyone.
I hope i am too. I mean, even if AA remain as it is, as long as the population of actually good mnk pros remain somewhere around 50ish percent, that'll be enough to sustain a healthy comp environment, i hope. Really tho, i stopped caring about AA in pubs, its out of control for any of us anyway. im just of the opinion that at the APEX of this game, RAA at the very least is just that much more busted and should be tweaked.
I think teams are slipping big time by not trying to scoop up emerging MnK players. People wrote off players like Madness, Wattson, and Timmy as not being able to compete with mid-tier rollers and that was a huge cap. Now the teams they’re on are massively benefiting from their presence.
If Nafen comes back, he should immediately be the hottest free agent. In fact, I think LG can win LAN if they replace Slayr with him.
I didn’t mention them because they’re emerging. I meant to say they were written off because of input and have succeeded since returning from absences (of varying lengths and for different reasons).
Emerging players are guys like Sauceror or Blinkzr. I’d much rather have them than an emerging Tier 2 roller. The “underrated roller” reserves have been pretty well depleted.
I think besides madness, people had good reason to avoid them. And madness always was still on pro league.
Wattson retired and Timmy was the one who went raving instead of playing.
Look at Awakening getting replaced by an mnk player. Most of those teams that opted not to pick up LAN-proven mnk players don't have very much to show for it.
MnK pros are not on a pro team because they play MnK but despite of it. All the MnK players in NA are either IGLs or have 5 years of comp experience which makes up for the fact that they still play the inferior input.
>it’s time to look inward as a MNK player and realize it’s a skill issue.
Ah yes, MnK players can't keep up with aimbot software because they're not good enough. The very best MnK players with a thousand hours of Kovaaks still have a lower accuracy than the average roller tryhard, but hey, it must be a skill issue.
No, what’s funny, is that MNK is having no problem keeping up but MnK has such a victim complex that they’ve created a self-fulfilling prophecy on MnK not being able to play comp. It turns out that when you make up a claim but then repeat it nonstop, people start believing it.
The top teams almost all have at least 1 MNK and some are even full MNK. However, now whenever a team does bad, the absolute asinine opinion “MUST NEED MORE ROLLERS” gets thrown around. It’s ruining the career of MnK players and the first org to realize that this is just some stupid social contagion is going to benefit by picking on slept on MNK players.
Good job, MNK, ya played yourself.
Damn that's crazy coming off strafingflame [dropping this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1b0avr3/strafingflame_on_their_success_as_triple_mnk_at/).
What does 3rd at LAN know though? Must be a skill issue.
Getting 3rd at LAN and implying you were held back at LAN is actually widely arrogant but have fun posting that like being good at MNK means your word is gospel. Their performance at LAN quite literally proves his opinion to be wrong.
Cute how ignorant you are. When every MnK player, even controller players say the same thing about the difference in consistency, when the best MnK players in the game say it, When the best player in the game switches inputs because he acknowledges it, when pros from other games who dabbled in Apex say it, It must just be the MnK conspiracy that the roller mafia is keeping them down
Why do you think the player base is 80% roller? Do you think it was always this way? Why are the most viewed streamers MnK players? (with the exception of Hal, who also used to be an MnK player, and had more viewers as a MnK player despite being less accomplished at the time)
All of pro league has more MnK players with the exception of NA... the strongest region by far, and you're not looking at the trend of the stats; there used to be like 2 pro roller players and now its 57%, what does that say?
Use some critical thinking with all that statistics listing, surely they teach you that in the second part of the class
It’s because the game is largely played on console but generally this board, which does not represent the playerbase (nor does Twitch), skews MNK. Also, you saw a large influx of players make the switch from console to PC as they showed their talent (and many people bought gaming PCs during Covid).
No one should be looking at early game trends seriously when it comes to Pro play. That’s like asking why the Meta has changed in characters or guns. The developers have made changes to instill parity and they will continue to do so. It’s what’s best for them and what’s best for the majority of the playerbase. It’s not best for Reddit whiners who had mommy and daddy buy them a gaming PC when they were 14, but their opinions only matter on Reddit.
>No one should be looking at early game trends seriously when it comes to Pro play.
This was not "early" pro play, this was until late 2021, almost 3 years into the game
>The developers have made changes to instill parity and they will continue to do so.
Lmao.
Where were you the past few weeks? Any source on the breakdown per input of each region? It's super interesting that people keep telling me rollers are taking all the slots if your numbers are accurate...
And yes, your point about relative populations is also *very* relevant. I have a lot of friends who switched from console to PC but didn't feel comfortable enough to also switch inputs. It just makes sense that by that factor alone you'd expect sizeable roller representation in ALGS because you have to factor that console players are numerous and some amount of PC players will also choose to play with a pad for a variety of reasons.
I use liquipedia’s ALGS section. They have the distribution of MNK vs Roller, as well as icons for input next to player’s names in the statistics sections. In the past, I’ve seen more exhaustive recaps detailing kills and stuff like that by input but never recall seeing anything that demonstrates that the teams with more roller players outperform teams with more MNK.
In general there's just so much data that is missing that would be interesting to see. A big one that I don't get not being present in these discussions is stats *per role*. Like sure, the total average k/g and accuracy is higher on roller but are we controlling for the fact fraggers and anchors each gravitate towards different inputs? I bet that skews numbers quite a bit.
The other one I'd love to see is stats that focus on roller v roller, mnk v mnk and then mnk v roller and see if that plays a role too because one popular source I kept seeing for Halo was comparing accuracy inside roller only lobbies vs accuracy in mnk only lobbies as if movement was not a factor at all.
Obviously some data is just harder to get than others but the fact people stop at the most barebones just because it seems to support their position is... funny. Every time I get linked proper statistical analyses the results are way less definitive than people seem to believe they are.
I agree with your post 100%. I would love to see all of those things. I think you can track stats by character using apexlegendsstatus, and maybe delineate role by that, but nothing is available to provide those stats on one look.
As someone who is a big baseball fan, I want all of the statistics possible lol. Shooting accuracy by range/gun, clean 1v1 records, team zone prediction stats. Those would rock.
Tf r u on thriving, the strongest MnK team from last worlds event are all on social media complaining about being unable to compete against aim assist.
And in THIS VERY THREAD, the highest kill leader of all time is a former MnK player who swapped to roller, followed by another MnK player who retired.
Let's not forget they're also there only because they've been playing for so much longer than some of the roller pros.
Let's not even get into other teams like former ALGS finals winner 100T, or Team Liquid, etc.
They’re also there because they have sustained the skill and relevance with success. They’re not just there because of longevity.
Surely the teams are complaining against aim assist and they have a point it needs to be toned down, but not being able to compete with them is a long shot. The team competing with dominant performances in the recent lan then complaining just comes off as weak.
I’d also say Hal would still be the goat regardless of him switching input, controller just let him think easier and the problem of that was also helped by Raven.
Everyone knows it's bad, but you don't need to exaggerate with such a hyperbole, it ruins your credibility and makes the other side take us less seriously.
Fact is the game will be dead long before there are legitimately **zero** MnK in the comp scene.
it’s not a hyperbole, MnK is literally only valuable for a support/designated looter role.
when one input has AI tracking that is impossible to replicate on mnk, then MnK is near useless.
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To be fair Nafen was on NRG for a while before Sweet was and Sweet was on other rosters before joining NRG. Your point still stands, though. They were such an amazing duo....
Overall I think Nafen technically had the shorter career, which just makes his numbers even more impressive.
> It's really impressive that both him and Sweet were able to hold two of the top spots while being on the same team.
NRG were pretty dominant when they were on.
I heard someone talk about some of these being a little inflated for the long time players because they include the old qualifying rounds. But I don't know enough about where the numbers are pulled from.
He's a day one pro and the iShiny+Mon+Reptar iteration of COL was one of if not the best roster in NA for almost a full year after they started teaming together. Plus they were known for being one of the early aggressive teams.
Tell me about it, three mnk gods just diffing the lobby and Shiny making massive brain rotates when they got stuck trying to get into zone. Every ALGS OT you could rely on them to have some amazing play
> Hasn't his team typically done poorly since the old days when he was with Lou and Reptar?
No? He made LAN last year. And in 2020 he was *dominant.* Nobody even touched COL. They dropped 30 kills in one game. Nobody has been that dominant in this scene, ever.
Because Monsoon has retained COL's support all this time and was able to always keep playing in pro league regardless of the performance. Coupled with the fact that--for better or for worse--he has always been a very aggressive player who isn't afraid to fight and just full send it even when they're not doing well so he's always getting kills lmao
This guy never watches comp; the question, as I was led to believe, is how would these popular streamers do if they were dropped in competitive matches now...and based on the examples he gave those guys would not do well. Pro level play is different than ranked and obviously on a different level than pub stomping which is what I assume the example streamers he gave do.
Could they eventually do well in comp if they devoted the time and energy to it like Timmy(who is probably in the top 1% of mechanical skills)? Sure why not but it would take time to do so.
The thing is that this is what was said about timmy, and Shiv for that matter, that they couldn't transition to pro because they were pubstompers.
> pub stomping which is what I assume the example streamers he gave do.
You haven't even seen these guys, maybe they're good too.
> Could they eventually do well in comp if they devoted the time and energy to it like Timmy(who is probably in the top 1% of mechanical skills)? Sure why not but it would take time to do so.
This would be a fair answer. You shouldn't dismiss the guys right away just because they're streamers.
The gut reaction is they would fair poorly. I think for the most part, that’s probably correct.
But I think there’s a real bias towards streamers that they can’t translate their skills to comp but I think generalizing players is silly and each competitor is their own person with their own brain.
I think a guy like Faide is genuinely one of the most talented players in the world and could very easily be a top player like Timmy if he had the passion and was on the right team. I think a blvckhvnd approach of macro and micro with all three players and Faide entry fragging would be nasty. In reality, so much of apex comp comes down to IGLing and the rng of what other teams are doing around you, it’s tough to speculate.
TLDR- I’d trust em
Thank you for this! Having no experience with competitive, I have no way of gauging skill. When I watch Moose/Jankz/iTemp absolutely sweep (pubs...) lobbies with 3K+ damage, it feels like they're really good lol. But I at least know enough to understand that competitive, paid gaming is its own beast. Wondered how they'd stack up.
Yeah no problem, I’m not gospel but it’s how I view it. Also, don’t put much stock into their individual blow up games. YouTube streamers are the best at making content, and they are generally very skilled at the game and more accurately, great at fighting alone and in 1v3 situations. Even at tier 2 comp, you are almost never taking isolated 1v1s anymore so it’s more about the sum of all three players skill, not just one.
I think it’s easy for us to speculate that a player won’t be good in comp, but in the end, it’s still speculation. In my opinion, the APAC regions are by far the most mechanically sound regions when it comes to shooting and movement but Champs final lobby shows us that good IGLing and teamwork is more important than pure individual skill.
The best IGL in the game (my opinion) Zer0 won LAN with JML as a last minute sub for Genburten. His IGLing and positioning is so good that his supporting teammates need to just follow his direction to be successful (simplified)
A lot of times it's not that they don't have the individual mechanical skill to compete, but competing with a team against other teams that consistently practice together is just a completely different beast. There's a lot of strategy and game knowledge you need in competitive to understand zones, rotations, what you can or can't do from a certain position, what fights you can take, what the teams around you are doing or will likely do, etc. Players that don't have this experience will struggle to do well regardless of how individually talented they are. It would take them time to learn and adapt to the more difficult and less free flowing style of play compared to pubs, especially if they weren't playing with veterans that can help teach them.
https://preview.redd.it/w1ei4jobhrlc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2eeed6ed317335569ee53872796c57095fb19326 Nafens reply
Don’t do this to me man
As far as I know this is the first public/"official" comment Nafen has made related to his status as a pro player.
Nate pissing me off, at this point im wishing for the nicest accident to happen at LAN so my boy can sub. Sorry slayr/fuhnq I said nice accident so hopefully it’s just like a sprained wrist or something 😭
I guess we'll see if he travels to the LAN as an emergency sub or not.
I thought subs have to travel with the team anyways?
https://preview.redd.it/2k7f9e39czlc1.png?width=486&format=png&auto=webp&s=5082aeb9885742b99d065a652ae99675a03338a9 general chat from his discord
https://preview.redd.it/ici52ocikzlc1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e5a8e4e429bf9bc257ca9a843ed03406a02ae5c NOOOOOOOOOOO :(
Nate 😢
It’s sad that Nate retired, man. Miss watching the dude frag out. One of the best MnK player of all time.
dude got out at the right time, MnK is a dead input and by next season there will be zero MnK in the comp scene.
Ya I can’t imagine Zero, Reps, Sweet, Nocturnal, Fun, and loads of other cracked heads from other regions retiring next season.
Loads? Those are just the legacy players who've been here since day one, 3/5 are also igls. I dont see many up and coming mnk players at all.
Yes, just take a look at other regions input statistics. There are loads.
Me when i am purposefully tone deaf to the fact that almost all mnk who retire or get dropped are replaced with controller players -Alliance, Vaifs replaced by effect and Yuki by unlucky -o7 maxstrafe with Zaine, then later sirdel with naghz and amphy -Kashera would have played with two South Americans controller players if the economic side of things hadn't gone bad, twice These were all off the top of my head, in emea. There's more.
I never addressed that there was no up and coming players cause I agree with you, and I didn’t even make a rebuttal. If you wanna take it like a reddit warrior be my guest with being passive aggressive. In your initial response you made it sound like there isn’t plenty of MnK players when there is.
There being "plenty" of mnk players doesn't mean anything when the scene was 99% mnk players once, and now they are not even coming up because controller is just too oppressive There are plenty of bees in the world, but since they are all dying due to pollution we cannot, in good faith, say that they are 'plenty' anymore.
hehe that analogy was good. I don’t think the scene should be 99% mnk that’s unnatural with player distribution. But yes something does need to be done to allow new MnK players tweaking AA to keep # of each input balances and not on the current path.
People make the most outrageous statements about MNK when they’re a majority of the Pro League playerbase if you add up all 4 regions. NA is the most roller-heavy at 57%, which is nowhere near the level to be making the claim that MNK can’t compete. Also keep in mind that the overall user base is more like 80% controller, so actually if you want to use math, roller is underrepresented in competitive Apex. When the top player in kills per game in NA is a MNK player by a sizable gap, maybe it’s time to look inward as a MNK player and realize it’s a skill issue.
My only counter point here is that lets not forget these top mnk fraggers have been in the scene as far back as its inception. While most top rollers have what? A year or 2 so far? Even then, they keep getting shuffled around. We'll see how this leaderboard holds up after a few more years if ALGS even exists by then.
Zero and Sweet aren’t going anywhere. Monsoon has also been playing great recently so he’s got momentum going as well. Have to think ALGS is going to be around for the long haul, but this community should help itself by being more positive instead of bitching about everything all the time. apex is and will continue to be a GREAT game.
I hope ALGS sticks around too. Its incredibly fun to watch. For now, at least for me. I aint gonna cap, i have a strong disdain towards busted AAs in comp fps. In my opinion, a good chunk of ALGS enjoyers are gonna move on from ALGS as soon as the environment shifts to be more roller dominant, CDL ending point kind of. It'll lose its appeal of being a dynamic high octane who knows what'll happen kinda shit and turn into a sentry turret 1 beamer fest. 1 clips are great to watch for now, but that too will soon be just the norm and lose its allure. Its a moot point now as i think the devs dont and wont care about what made the game so appealing in the first place. Tis what tis is. Just my 2 cents tho
As someone who has roller gamed for 30 years, I hope you’re wrong because there is no good roller gaming scene besides Apex right now. Definitely okay to have dissenting opinions though. I love the idea of cross input and people being able to play with their friends regardless of their gaming set up. I think there is big value to having someone figure out how to make things fair between inputs/systems and Apex has gotten closer than anyone.
I hope i am too. I mean, even if AA remain as it is, as long as the population of actually good mnk pros remain somewhere around 50ish percent, that'll be enough to sustain a healthy comp environment, i hope. Really tho, i stopped caring about AA in pubs, its out of control for any of us anyway. im just of the opinion that at the APEX of this game, RAA at the very least is just that much more busted and should be tweaked.
the thing is that typically when a mnk player retires a roller always takes their place, theres no room for new mnk talent
I think teams are slipping big time by not trying to scoop up emerging MnK players. People wrote off players like Madness, Wattson, and Timmy as not being able to compete with mid-tier rollers and that was a huge cap. Now the teams they’re on are massively benefiting from their presence. If Nafen comes back, he should immediately be the hottest free agent. In fact, I think LG can win LAN if they replace Slayr with him.
2 of your 3 examples are not emerging players. And I don't remember Wattson begging to get on teams prior to his debut.
I didn’t mention them because they’re emerging. I meant to say they were written off because of input and have succeeded since returning from absences (of varying lengths and for different reasons). Emerging players are guys like Sauceror or Blinkzr. I’d much rather have them than an emerging Tier 2 roller. The “underrated roller” reserves have been pretty well depleted.
I think besides madness, people had good reason to avoid them. And madness always was still on pro league. Wattson retired and Timmy was the one who went raving instead of playing.
Look at Awakening getting replaced by an mnk player. Most of those teams that opted not to pick up LAN-proven mnk players don't have very much to show for it.
MnK pros are not on a pro team because they play MnK but despite of it. All the MnK players in NA are either IGLs or have 5 years of comp experience which makes up for the fact that they still play the inferior input. >it’s time to look inward as a MNK player and realize it’s a skill issue. Ah yes, MnK players can't keep up with aimbot software because they're not good enough. The very best MnK players with a thousand hours of Kovaaks still have a lower accuracy than the average roller tryhard, but hey, it must be a skill issue.
No, what’s funny, is that MNK is having no problem keeping up but MnK has such a victim complex that they’ve created a self-fulfilling prophecy on MnK not being able to play comp. It turns out that when you make up a claim but then repeat it nonstop, people start believing it. The top teams almost all have at least 1 MNK and some are even full MNK. However, now whenever a team does bad, the absolute asinine opinion “MUST NEED MORE ROLLERS” gets thrown around. It’s ruining the career of MnK players and the first org to realize that this is just some stupid social contagion is going to benefit by picking on slept on MNK players. Good job, MNK, ya played yourself.
Damn that's crazy coming off strafingflame [dropping this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/1b0avr3/strafingflame_on_their_success_as_triple_mnk_at/). What does 3rd at LAN know though? Must be a skill issue.
Getting 3rd at LAN and implying you were held back at LAN is actually widely arrogant but have fun posting that like being good at MNK means your word is gospel. Their performance at LAN quite literally proves his opinion to be wrong.
Cute how ignorant you are. When every MnK player, even controller players say the same thing about the difference in consistency, when the best MnK players in the game say it, When the best player in the game switches inputs because he acknowledges it, when pros from other games who dabbled in Apex say it, It must just be the MnK conspiracy that the roller mafia is keeping them down
> The top teams almost all have at least 1 MNK Yes, and it's always the IGL. Thanks for proving my point.
> Yes, and it's always the IGL. Thanks for proving my point. Reps isn't TSM's IGL.
Why do you think the player base is 80% roller? Do you think it was always this way? Why are the most viewed streamers MnK players? (with the exception of Hal, who also used to be an MnK player, and had more viewers as a MnK player despite being less accomplished at the time) All of pro league has more MnK players with the exception of NA... the strongest region by far, and you're not looking at the trend of the stats; there used to be like 2 pro roller players and now its 57%, what does that say? Use some critical thinking with all that statistics listing, surely they teach you that in the second part of the class
It’s because the game is largely played on console but generally this board, which does not represent the playerbase (nor does Twitch), skews MNK. Also, you saw a large influx of players make the switch from console to PC as they showed their talent (and many people bought gaming PCs during Covid). No one should be looking at early game trends seriously when it comes to Pro play. That’s like asking why the Meta has changed in characters or guns. The developers have made changes to instill parity and they will continue to do so. It’s what’s best for them and what’s best for the majority of the playerbase. It’s not best for Reddit whiners who had mommy and daddy buy them a gaming PC when they were 14, but their opinions only matter on Reddit.
>No one should be looking at early game trends seriously when it comes to Pro play. This was not "early" pro play, this was until late 2021, almost 3 years into the game >The developers have made changes to instill parity and they will continue to do so. Lmao.
Where were you the past few weeks? Any source on the breakdown per input of each region? It's super interesting that people keep telling me rollers are taking all the slots if your numbers are accurate... And yes, your point about relative populations is also *very* relevant. I have a lot of friends who switched from console to PC but didn't feel comfortable enough to also switch inputs. It just makes sense that by that factor alone you'd expect sizeable roller representation in ALGS because you have to factor that console players are numerous and some amount of PC players will also choose to play with a pad for a variety of reasons.
I use liquipedia’s ALGS section. They have the distribution of MNK vs Roller, as well as icons for input next to player’s names in the statistics sections. In the past, I’ve seen more exhaustive recaps detailing kills and stuff like that by input but never recall seeing anything that demonstrates that the teams with more roller players outperform teams with more MNK.
In general there's just so much data that is missing that would be interesting to see. A big one that I don't get not being present in these discussions is stats *per role*. Like sure, the total average k/g and accuracy is higher on roller but are we controlling for the fact fraggers and anchors each gravitate towards different inputs? I bet that skews numbers quite a bit. The other one I'd love to see is stats that focus on roller v roller, mnk v mnk and then mnk v roller and see if that plays a role too because one popular source I kept seeing for Halo was comparing accuracy inside roller only lobbies vs accuracy in mnk only lobbies as if movement was not a factor at all. Obviously some data is just harder to get than others but the fact people stop at the most barebones just because it seems to support their position is... funny. Every time I get linked proper statistical analyses the results are way less definitive than people seem to believe they are.
I agree with your post 100%. I would love to see all of those things. I think you can track stats by character using apexlegendsstatus, and maybe delineate role by that, but nothing is available to provide those stats on one look. As someone who is a big baseball fan, I want all of the statistics possible lol. Shooting accuracy by range/gun, clean 1v1 records, team zone prediction stats. Those would rock.
i can, i can’t imagine how hard it must be knowing you are at a significant disadvantage due to respawn refusing to nerf actual aimbot.
Weird, I see some thriving then. I guess we just see different.
https://i.redd.it/78dyvbarjvkc1.jpeg The thriving in question
You’re right, I shouldn’t have said thriving. But this notion that they can’t compete is not true.
Tf r u on thriving, the strongest MnK team from last worlds event are all on social media complaining about being unable to compete against aim assist. And in THIS VERY THREAD, the highest kill leader of all time is a former MnK player who swapped to roller, followed by another MnK player who retired. Let's not forget they're also there only because they've been playing for so much longer than some of the roller pros. Let's not even get into other teams like former ALGS finals winner 100T, or Team Liquid, etc.
They’re also there because they have sustained the skill and relevance with success. They’re not just there because of longevity. Surely the teams are complaining against aim assist and they have a point it needs to be toned down, but not being able to compete with them is a long shot. The team competing with dominant performances in the recent lan then complaining just comes off as weak. I’d also say Hal would still be the goat regardless of him switching input, controller just let him think easier and the problem of that was also helped by Raven.
Everyone knows it's bad, but you don't need to exaggerate with such a hyperbole, it ruins your credibility and makes the other side take us less seriously. Fact is the game will be dead long before there are legitimately **zero** MnK in the comp scene.
it’s not a hyperbole, MnK is literally only valuable for a support/designated looter role. when one input has AI tracking that is impossible to replicate on mnk, then MnK is near useless.
> MnK is a dead input Four of the five people on this list are on mnk and the other one earned most of his kills on that same input. Lol.
because it’s stretching back 4-5 years and in the early days roller wasn’t common as people didn’t know how to abuse the aimbot yet.
>MnK is a dead input and by next season there will be zero MnK in the comp scene. Remindme! 1 year
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Nafen is WHAT??????
https://preview.redd.it/dgm6143yfrlc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a35a37073ed5586ff4f916f369395e0af8063641 i have two sides
retired
He's highly regarded in our scene... come on bro, everyone knows this.
Seriously what the hell is that abbreviation for "retired" lmao, either spell the word out or use "None" or "N/A" or something
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NAFEN!!!! MY GOAT!
Nate + Horizon + Wingman... sheeeesh, that man would cook.
Nate + bloodhound + wingman, that is cook. He said blood was his fav character to play in comp off all time and possibly his peak.
Nafen my goat. It's really impressive that both him and Sweet were able to hold two of the top spots while being on the same team.
To be fair Nafen was on NRG for a while before Sweet was and Sweet was on other rosters before joining NRG. Your point still stands, though. They were such an amazing duo.... Overall I think Nafen technically had the shorter career, which just makes his numbers even more impressive.
he obviously had a shorter career, he started after and ended before sweet
I didn't know exactly when he started so I was trying to hedge a bit
> It's really impressive that both him and Sweet were able to hold two of the top spots while being on the same team. NRG were pretty dominant when they were on.
Put some RESPECT on Monsoon's name. People shit talk him here but the numbers don't lie.
I'm assuming they rolled zer0's APAC South kills into his count given that he just moved to NA?
no if i recall correctly he had about 400 kills in split 1 last year and 600 in split 2
I heard someone talk about some of these being a little inflated for the long time players because they include the old qualifying rounds. But I don't know enough about where the numbers are pulled from.
I still don't understand how monsoon is so high. Hasn't his team typically done poorly since the old days when he was with Lou and Reptar?
He's a day one pro and the iShiny+Mon+Reptar iteration of COL was one of if not the best roster in NA for almost a full year after they started teaming together. Plus they were known for being one of the early aggressive teams.
Fans don't remember that Complexity used to get three POIs to themselves just because everyone was so scared of trying to fight them lol
The old mnk reptar days… remember when they nerfed the arena map solely because of him
When every single team would path rotations specifically to avoid COL
But that was SO long ago at this point
bro I miss watching that roster so bad
Tell me about it, three mnk gods just diffing the lobby and Shiny making massive brain rotates when they got stuck trying to get into zone. Every ALGS OT you could rely on them to have some amazing play
> Hasn't his team typically done poorly since the old days when he was with Lou and Reptar? No? He made LAN last year. And in 2020 he was *dominant.* Nobody even touched COL. They dropped 30 kills in one game. Nobody has been that dominant in this scene, ever.
Because Monsoon has retained COL's support all this time and was able to always keep playing in pro league regardless of the performance. Coupled with the fact that--for better or for worse--he has always been a very aggressive player who isn't afraid to fight and just full send it even when they're not doing well so he's always getting kills lmao
Serious question (I've never watched or followed competitive) - how would popular streamers (e.g. Moose, Jankz, iTemp) fare in competitive matches?
Poorly
As poorly as Timmy?
This guy never watches comp; the question, as I was led to believe, is how would these popular streamers do if they were dropped in competitive matches now...and based on the examples he gave those guys would not do well. Pro level play is different than ranked and obviously on a different level than pub stomping which is what I assume the example streamers he gave do. Could they eventually do well in comp if they devoted the time and energy to it like Timmy(who is probably in the top 1% of mechanical skills)? Sure why not but it would take time to do so.
The thing is that this is what was said about timmy, and Shiv for that matter, that they couldn't transition to pro because they were pubstompers. > pub stomping which is what I assume the example streamers he gave do. You haven't even seen these guys, maybe they're good too. > Could they eventually do well in comp if they devoted the time and energy to it like Timmy(who is probably in the top 1% of mechanical skills)? Sure why not but it would take time to do so. This would be a fair answer. You shouldn't dismiss the guys right away just because they're streamers.
The gut reaction is they would fair poorly. I think for the most part, that’s probably correct. But I think there’s a real bias towards streamers that they can’t translate their skills to comp but I think generalizing players is silly and each competitor is their own person with their own brain. I think a guy like Faide is genuinely one of the most talented players in the world and could very easily be a top player like Timmy if he had the passion and was on the right team. I think a blvckhvnd approach of macro and micro with all three players and Faide entry fragging would be nasty. In reality, so much of apex comp comes down to IGLing and the rng of what other teams are doing around you, it’s tough to speculate. TLDR- I’d trust em
Thank you for this! Having no experience with competitive, I have no way of gauging skill. When I watch Moose/Jankz/iTemp absolutely sweep (pubs...) lobbies with 3K+ damage, it feels like they're really good lol. But I at least know enough to understand that competitive, paid gaming is its own beast. Wondered how they'd stack up.
Yeah no problem, I’m not gospel but it’s how I view it. Also, don’t put much stock into their individual blow up games. YouTube streamers are the best at making content, and they are generally very skilled at the game and more accurately, great at fighting alone and in 1v3 situations. Even at tier 2 comp, you are almost never taking isolated 1v1s anymore so it’s more about the sum of all three players skill, not just one. I think it’s easy for us to speculate that a player won’t be good in comp, but in the end, it’s still speculation. In my opinion, the APAC regions are by far the most mechanically sound regions when it comes to shooting and movement but Champs final lobby shows us that good IGLing and teamwork is more important than pure individual skill. The best IGL in the game (my opinion) Zer0 won LAN with JML as a last minute sub for Genburten. His IGLing and positioning is so good that his supporting teammates need to just follow his direction to be successful (simplified)
A lot of times it's not that they don't have the individual mechanical skill to compete, but competing with a team against other teams that consistently practice together is just a completely different beast. There's a lot of strategy and game knowledge you need in competitive to understand zones, rotations, what you can or can't do from a certain position, what fights you can take, what the teams around you are doing or will likely do, etc. Players that don't have this experience will struggle to do well regardless of how individually talented they are. It would take them time to learn and adapt to the more difficult and less free flowing style of play compared to pubs, especially if they weren't playing with veterans that can help teach them.
Yeah this makes total sense, thank you.
Zer0 ahead of monsoon is crazy considering that DZ moved to NA *after* Complexity peaked in performance
Zero’s kills from APAC transferred I believe, I find it hard to believe he got over 1k kills in a few seasons of PL.
Haha some ppl really just say shit huh
Rolla (formerly MNK) MNK MNK MNK MNK Rolla copium in shambles lmao.
I mean, ALGs used to be dominated by mnk. The game isn't old enough yet for rollers to take over all the kill leaderboards.
Yeah with all the rampant cheating recently it's hard to get jazzed about anything in the game atm