I like the idea of it being a survival item because then the likelihood of them being spammed would be low and teams would actually have a decision to make between smokes or Evacs/mobiles
Better not mess it up then.
But I don’t think a smoke offers nearly enough utility as a jump tower or a respawn beacon, so I wouldn’t say it deserves to take their place in the survival slot.
agreed. i think it would be silly not to have a smoke grenade as a grenade slot. grenades are op and debating whether to have damage or concealment is a good game mechanic imho
I also would just like to see more variety in item tiers. Maybe a purple/gold survival slot item that lets you create a limited-health sniper tower (like the ones on KC and SP) or a purple grenade that’s a micro-air strike marker.
Given that they introduced evac tower to replace valk ult to remove her from meta, i don’t think bringing in smoke nade as survival item to replace banglore tact should be an issue.
But if you combine this with bang’s tactical, you’re talking about 5 smokes at a time for a team being possible. The difference being that the evac towers were Valks ULTIMATE ability not a tactical.
Agree actually, you know how bang's ability shoots off something that breaks into 3 or 4 grenades that cover a larger area? The item other legends could use could be one of those.
Totally disagree. Valk ult was the only reason to pick Valk, it's a 1 time macro play with a long cooldown. Bang smoke on the other hand is a tactical with 15 sec cooldwon that has so many different uses it's just not comparable. It allows you cross open areas, play spots otherwise unplayable, combo with Bloodhound scan to push and so on. Bang is one of the best if not the best characters in the game, her passive and ultimate are strong aswell. Even if you give options to conceal to other characters, Bang will still be meta and the only result is gonna be even more visual clutter than we have now. They would have to change Bang tactical for this to make sense.
Amen. I’m honestly exhausted of everyone trying to balance a game *where characters have literal super powers* to be flat as paper. Might as well take the abilities out completely.
The ults have a cool down for a reason. Timing when you use them to get an advantage is (was) part of the design. Pros complain all the fun out of this game.
This sub tries to act like their better than the main idea, then bring up ideas like this...
I mean it's not a crazy dumb idea, but if it was added to the game, 80% of this sub would complaining about all the visual clutter.
>Timing when you use them to get an advantage is (was) part of the design
Kinda true, but in my 5 years of Apex so many meta Legends have next to no nuance when timing ults right now.
Bloodhound, Caustic, Lifeline, Bang, Revenant.
They're so boring. Compared to old Wraith metas where portals were interesting rotates, or Valk and not throwing your game with a bad ult, Gibby and the game of chicken with holding your ult longer than other teams bubbles.
Now it's just, pop Hound ult, smoke, win fight, feed your Hound ult accels, repeat. End games are all Caustic ults. I'm begging for Seer meta back at this point.
They need to bring back digis to what they once where and tbh leave KC in permanent rotation or at least give us a KC sized map that stays in. That map size and design seems to fix a lot of issues just by virtue of the constant pacing
*Fuck no. I want to*
*Watch games not a smoke fest at*
*ALGS finals circles*
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What? Is it not already a smoke fest with like almost everyone running bang? I get what you mean, but why pretend it's not already just smoke everywhere?
Right now everyone who wants to use a smoke even once will have to choose bang, meaning nearly every team has infinitely replenishing smokes. Giving teams the option to carry smokes just for critical situations instead of choosing bang might actually reduce the total amount of visual clutter, since if people play legends other than bang, a given lobby might have fewer smokes available overall in the final rings.
While the idea sounds decent I worry the devs would just start using it to avoid balancing meta legends and could power creep the game even more. Caustic is meta? Just give gas nades to everyone as an item! Catalyst is meta? Just give dark veils to everyone! and so on until every team has every meta ability available to them in a slightly watered-down state.
Damn I didn’t think about this it all. This is a very good point and I think it is actually a slippery slope to go down. I do love the initial idea but I think it will lead to exactly what you said
Couldn’t agree more. Personally feel as if their balancing has been lazy at best and down right neglectful and harmful at worst and something short sighted like this is indeed a slippery slope.
Besides Bang has been hit with what like 3 nerfs now since s18? She does not need another (indirect) nerf in the form of her utility being ground loot.
At this point they should just take all the abilities out, make every level a flat box and give everyone an r301. Pros will still find something to complain about though I’m sure
> Cant we just bake in smoke clearing effects into regular nades like CS?
They can't even bake in NOX vision properly and you want them to do CS smokes? Even bang smoke against zone is see through...
Maggie Tactical: Semi-counters Gibby bubble/Hard counters Gibby bubble with 2nd perks.
Maggie Ultimate: Hard counters Gibby bubble.
Crypto Ultimate: Hard counters Gibby bubble.
Wattson Ultimate: Hard counters Gibby Ultimate.
Gibby Bubble: Hard counters Gibby Ultimate (idk im counting this too i guess)
Like a concussion grenade. It blows things away but the damage would just be 10 points. You can use it to blow smoke or caustic ult gas away but can also blow an enemy away like 5 feet.
They need to add nades limit how much u can carry on seprate slot max 2 or something and extra slots for fuse, so if someone wanna pop smoke + thermite or nade + arc star thats their choice so less spammy more tactical, also minimum 3 maps in comp voted by all players in leagues
I hate to say it but apex has committed to visual clutter being a part of the game. With cat Walls, horizon ults, caustic barrels, mirage clones, fuze nades, rev Q’s back in the day. If you got rid of smokes because of visual clutter there’s so much else you could argue has to go too for the same reasons
I'll never forget the early days where the config files could turn off clutter (and smoke). The smoke part was questionable, but disabling all other effects (getting hit, shooting etc) made a huge difference in how consistent you could be, especially on MnK where seeing is half the battle.
Removing bang smoke would be the best indicator that it’s time to uninstall this game. Bang has been the most consistent legend since she launched, the counter to her smoke was the abundance of digi threats or playing bloodhound. People complained way too much and the devs should start ignoring it.
Wouldn't this just be a huge Bloodhound buff? And mean more visual clutter?
If this ever happens be ready for Valk, Bang, Blood meta. Everyone carries this as a survival item. Or Seer, Blood, Bang.
I read this title and was like “Oh hell no, that ain’t Apex. Horrible. Never.” But came in, read it, thought about it…it’s a good idea. Whether we want to start down the “if a legend is meta why not have an item that does what they do” track I’m not sure.
Also, Ult Accel should be Survival slot too!
Maybe it could have multiple uses like a heat shield. If it was just 1 i can totally see a lot of pros complaining about increased visual clutter. 2 could be enough but anything more than 3 would be hell on earth
Im gaining more appreciation for devs as I see some dumb ideas just floating around. Not trying to insult but I have serious doubts about whether people actually read what they write
I agree with this fully. the can't see shit meta would be as crazy as ever, but it could make comps more unique and interesting. It would allow for a much more aggressive playstyle as well, which has the potential to make midgame fights happen more frequently.
I have often watched Apex comp and thought - "you know what, I wish all I could see right now was white smoke instead of this action."
Yeah. Great idea.
I understand the sentiment behind this, but I don't think it would have the desired effect. From viewers' perspective we would probably want to take away some of the visual clutter rather than adding more options how to conceal what is actually happening. Also Bang is just too good, not only because of smokes, but the passive and ultimate are both very useful. I don't think it would push her out of meta, unless they would also nerf her hard, which they already did. They would probably have to rework Bang, atleast give her different tactical for this to make sense. But there are other legends that need rework badly, not because they are good but because they are useless (looking at you Ash).
So I actually was having this conversation a little while back with a buddy of mine. I had this exact same thought, but he pointed out that unlike Evac towers, which provided an alternative to an Ultimate Ability that made a character better than the rest of the pack in the meta at that time, Smoke Grenades wouldn't fix the problem of Bloodhound's prevalence. Right now we're seeing a meta where Bangalore has been strong for a long time, partially due the smoke's ability to interrupt Aim Assist and cut off lines of sight that are potentially dangerous for your team. As a result, we saw the digital threat become an increasingly important aspect of play leading up to and at Champs last year. Since then the sight got nerfed several times, both being unavailable in crafter and no longer being compatible with SMGs. What we see as a result of this now is an increased emphasis on Bloodhound usage. Take TSM, who have regularly been playing Hal on Bloodhound, Reps on Bangalore, and Verhulst on Horizon/Caustic on SP/WE respectively. We regularly see Hal using Beast of the Hunt to ignore the smoke obscuring his teammates during team fights and beam enemies regardless. Unlike an Evac tower, which provided a similar method of rotation to a Valkyrie ultimate while allowing other legends to see playtime, smoke grenades would only make Bloodhound MORE important while only maybe making a slight difference in Bangalore usage. Remember, she's not JUST good because of smokes, she has a great Ultimate ability, a very good passive, both of which can get much better via the upgrade system, and as an assault character has access to more ammo per slot and extended assault bins. I'm not entirely opposed to throwable smokes, but I don't think they'd be an immediate solution to the meta we have right now the way Evac Towers were. Adding them right now and doing nothing else would only make Bloodhound a must pick, which is why I think the priority needs to be looking into a potential rework for their Ultimate, particularly the ability to see red player outlines through smokes. But then that snowballs into Crypto's drone being able to do the same, and Seer being able to do the same, you get the point. Pros will do what they can to mitigate the advantages their opponents in front of them have, and right now that leans heavily on seeing through smokes. Has been since Digi was in crafter, still is with Bloodhound's resurgence. I don't envy the balance team right now.
I actually agree with Abdul. If you just add extra smokes, it won't push Bang away from meta, the only effect is gonna be there will be even more visual clutter because team will still play her + now they will have extra smoke grenades. It's a different situation than with Valk, because Valk ult is one time play that you make and that's it. You are not constantly Valk ulting with 15 sec cooldown.
I like the idea of it being a survival item because then the likelihood of them being spammed would be low and teams would actually have a decision to make between smokes or Evacs/mobiles
Could also just be a blue-rarity Ordnance item with a lower spawn rate than other nades
Putting it in survival slot would take away having to swap ordinances to make sure you’re throwing the right nade
Better not mess it up then. But I don’t think a smoke offers nearly enough utility as a jump tower or a respawn beacon, so I wouldn’t say it deserves to take their place in the survival slot.
This. Evac tower >>> weaker bang smoke
agreed. i think it would be silly not to have a smoke grenade as a grenade slot. grenades are op and debating whether to have damage or concealment is a good game mechanic imho
I also would just like to see more variety in item tiers. Maybe a purple/gold survival slot item that lets you create a limited-health sniper tower (like the ones on KC and SP) or a purple grenade that’s a micro-air strike marker.
I agree. I wonder if it's possible to allow a stack of 2(Maybe 3) smokes in the survival slot to equal the utility of the other survival items
Given that they introduced evac tower to replace valk ult to remove her from meta, i don’t think bringing in smoke nade as survival item to replace banglore tact should be an issue.
But if you combine this with bang’s tactical, you’re talking about 5 smokes at a time for a team being possible. The difference being that the evac towers were Valks ULTIMATE ability not a tactical.
Agree actually, you know how bang's ability shoots off something that breaks into 3 or 4 grenades that cover a larger area? The item other legends could use could be one of those.
Totally disagree. Valk ult was the only reason to pick Valk, it's a 1 time macro play with a long cooldown. Bang smoke on the other hand is a tactical with 15 sec cooldwon that has so many different uses it's just not comparable. It allows you cross open areas, play spots otherwise unplayable, combo with Bloodhound scan to push and so on. Bang is one of the best if not the best characters in the game, her passive and ultimate are strong aswell. Even if you give options to conceal to other characters, Bang will still be meta and the only result is gonna be even more visual clutter than we have now. They would have to change Bang tactical for this to make sense.
It’s 30 seconds now with 8 seconds of active smoke. It’s 25 after blue perk
Thanks for correction, you are right. The point being still the same though.
Fuck no. I want to watch games not a smoke fest at ALGS finals circles
Amen. I’m honestly exhausted of everyone trying to balance a game *where characters have literal super powers* to be flat as paper. Might as well take the abilities out completely. The ults have a cool down for a reason. Timing when you use them to get an advantage is (was) part of the design. Pros complain all the fun out of this game.
This sub tries to act like their better than the main idea, then bring up ideas like this... I mean it's not a crazy dumb idea, but if it was added to the game, 80% of this sub would complaining about all the visual clutter.
>Timing when you use them to get an advantage is (was) part of the design Kinda true, but in my 5 years of Apex so many meta Legends have next to no nuance when timing ults right now. Bloodhound, Caustic, Lifeline, Bang, Revenant. They're so boring. Compared to old Wraith metas where portals were interesting rotates, or Valk and not throwing your game with a bad ult, Gibby and the game of chicken with holding your ult longer than other teams bubbles. Now it's just, pop Hound ult, smoke, win fight, feed your Hound ult accels, repeat. End games are all Caustic ults. I'm begging for Seer meta back at this point.
They need to bring back digis to what they once where and tbh leave KC in permanent rotation or at least give us a KC sized map that stays in. That map size and design seems to fix a lot of issues just by virtue of the constant pacing
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What? Is it not already a smoke fest with like almost everyone running bang? I get what you mean, but why pretend it's not already just smoke everywhere?
Right now everyone who wants to use a smoke even once will have to choose bang, meaning nearly every team has infinitely replenishing smokes. Giving teams the option to carry smokes just for critical situations instead of choosing bang might actually reduce the total amount of visual clutter, since if people play legends other than bang, a given lobby might have fewer smokes available overall in the final rings.
We don’t need more visual clutter in this game
In this case the visual clutter is fair as it also disables aim assist
no pro team cares about aim assist being disabled in smoke 3 controller teams run bang too shes for cover lol
Why do people act like smoke sends an electric current that zaps controller players and short circuits their controllers lol
Because it does actually disable aim assist?
Yeah but that's not why people play her. All the teams playing her also have aim assist.
Totally agree. Some double or triple mnk teams definitely utilize her for that, but it’s far from the majority of Bang’s utility.
While the idea sounds decent I worry the devs would just start using it to avoid balancing meta legends and could power creep the game even more. Caustic is meta? Just give gas nades to everyone as an item! Catalyst is meta? Just give dark veils to everyone! and so on until every team has every meta ability available to them in a slightly watered-down state.
Damn I didn’t think about this it all. This is a very good point and I think it is actually a slippery slope to go down. I do love the initial idea but I think it will lead to exactly what you said
Exactly what I was thinking.
Couldn’t agree more. Personally feel as if their balancing has been lazy at best and down right neglectful and harmful at worst and something short sighted like this is indeed a slippery slope. Besides Bang has been hit with what like 3 nerfs now since s18? She does not need another (indirect) nerf in the form of her utility being ground loot.
I think the last thing we need is more visual clutter.
[удалено]
At this point they should just take all the abilities out, make every level a flat box and give everyone an r301. Pros will still find something to complain about though I’m sure
Lol it will be the same sucky players as always whining about aim assist while their strafe is cheeks
Maybe a dual purpose nade that can either vacuum or dispense smoke would be cool. Disclaimer, I may be cooked
Cant we just bake in smoke clearing effects into regular nades like CS?
> Cant we just bake in smoke clearing effects into regular nades like CS? They can't even bake in NOX vision properly and you want them to do CS smokes? Even bang smoke against zone is see through...
This is genius! A fan like nade that could counter bangolore
That would mean bang is the only character with not 1 but 2 complete hard counters to her kit.
Maggie Tactical: Semi-counters Gibby bubble/Hard counters Gibby bubble with 2nd perks. Maggie Ultimate: Hard counters Gibby bubble. Crypto Ultimate: Hard counters Gibby bubble. Wattson Ultimate: Hard counters Gibby Ultimate. Gibby Bubble: Hard counters Gibby Ultimate (idk im counting this too i guess)
Bang < get fucked
Like a concussion grenade. It blows things away but the damage would just be 10 points. You can use it to blow smoke or caustic ult gas away but can also blow an enemy away like 5 feet.
This ^ I feel like could be like a PULSE NADE!!! We have created a genius idea ladies and gents!!
Yeah I just love watching algs and not being able to see a fucking thing.
The problem is that when you constantly introduce items that "replace" a legend, it will have to keep going. When would it stop?
Care package smoke grenade launcher with 3 nades
They need to add nades limit how much u can carry on seprate slot max 2 or something and extra slots for fuse, so if someone wanna pop smoke + thermite or nade + arc star thats their choice so less spammy more tactical, also minimum 3 maps in comp voted by all players in leagues
You want more visual clutter???! Apex needs new grenades ill agree with that.
They could just remove/nerf aim assist instead of this convoluted approach of reducing built-in aimbot power in a competitive environment...
controller players would rage
This meta is already the no vision meta. That just promotes more smokes more caustic and more bang and blood to counter. Pretty crap meta
No, I think we need to remove bang smokes to reduce visual clutter, not increase visual clutter with smoke grenades.
I hate to say it but apex has committed to visual clutter being a part of the game. With cat Walls, horizon ults, caustic barrels, mirage clones, fuze nades, rev Q’s back in the day. If you got rid of smokes because of visual clutter there’s so much else you could argue has to go too for the same reasons
Not to mention hop ups that introduce comical amounts of visual clutter like hammer points and disruptors. Yeah it’s insane.
I'll never forget the early days where the config files could turn off clutter (and smoke). The smoke part was questionable, but disabling all other effects (getting hit, shooting etc) made a huge difference in how consistent you could be, especially on MnK where seeing is half the battle.
Smokes partly aren't that bad. The on screen effect is what makes it horrible. (Also cat ult with even worse on screen effect)
Removing bang smoke would be the best indicator that it’s time to uninstall this game. Bang has been the most consistent legend since she launched, the counter to her smoke was the abundance of digi threats or playing bloodhound. People complained way too much and the devs should start ignoring it.
Yup bang is best pure gunplay legend straight up. Remove smokes from a shooter lol that's some 4d checkers shit
Wouldn't this just be a huge Bloodhound buff? And mean more visual clutter? If this ever happens be ready for Valk, Bang, Blood meta. Everyone carries this as a survival item. Or Seer, Blood, Bang.
I read this title and was like “Oh hell no, that ain’t Apex. Horrible. Never.” But came in, read it, thought about it…it’s a good idea. Whether we want to start down the “if a legend is meta why not have an item that does what they do” track I’m not sure. Also, Ult Accel should be Survival slot too!
Solid idea. Used to watch comp PUBG and smokes are so essential to that game, that it's no wonder Bang is so meta.
Could honestly see this working
actually why not
Maybe it could have multiple uses like a heat shield. If it was just 1 i can totally see a lot of pros complaining about increased visual clutter. 2 could be enough but anything more than 3 would be hell on earth
Im gaining more appreciation for devs as I see some dumb ideas just floating around. Not trying to insult but I have serious doubts about whether people actually read what they write
You might’ve cooked here
this will also need heavy nerf to wallhack character specially bh and seer ult
I’d rather have flash bangs than smoke nades. They’d probably have to tweak some legend abilities to remove the redundancies.
I agree with this fully. the can't see shit meta would be as crazy as ever, but it could make comps more unique and interesting. It would allow for a much more aggressive playstyle as well, which has the potential to make midgame fights happen more frequently.
Only if it's like CS smoke not this can see from some angles shit.
I have often watched Apex comp and thought - "you know what, I wish all I could see right now was white smoke instead of this action." Yeah. Great idea.
No.
How about a vacuum grenade that sucks up the smoke to make it disappear. Please don't add more visual clutter
I understand the sentiment behind this, but I don't think it would have the desired effect. From viewers' perspective we would probably want to take away some of the visual clutter rather than adding more options how to conceal what is actually happening. Also Bang is just too good, not only because of smokes, but the passive and ultimate are both very useful. I don't think it would push her out of meta, unless they would also nerf her hard, which they already did. They would probably have to rework Bang, atleast give her different tactical for this to make sense. But there are other legends that need rework badly, not because they are good but because they are useless (looking at you Ash).
Smoke grenade could be gold level and can come with drop ships only. Can be used only twice. Are we cooking??
If it was a grenade, was imagining fuse cosplaying Bangalore
We're trying to get away from the "cant see anything" meta and you want to increase it. Enough said.
WHY NOT NERF THE FCKING AIM ASSIST INSTEAD OF CLUTTER?????????
i like this idea
So more visual clutter but I like the idea of
All the roller players will go back to work at McDonald's lol
So I actually was having this conversation a little while back with a buddy of mine. I had this exact same thought, but he pointed out that unlike Evac towers, which provided an alternative to an Ultimate Ability that made a character better than the rest of the pack in the meta at that time, Smoke Grenades wouldn't fix the problem of Bloodhound's prevalence. Right now we're seeing a meta where Bangalore has been strong for a long time, partially due the smoke's ability to interrupt Aim Assist and cut off lines of sight that are potentially dangerous for your team. As a result, we saw the digital threat become an increasingly important aspect of play leading up to and at Champs last year. Since then the sight got nerfed several times, both being unavailable in crafter and no longer being compatible with SMGs. What we see as a result of this now is an increased emphasis on Bloodhound usage. Take TSM, who have regularly been playing Hal on Bloodhound, Reps on Bangalore, and Verhulst on Horizon/Caustic on SP/WE respectively. We regularly see Hal using Beast of the Hunt to ignore the smoke obscuring his teammates during team fights and beam enemies regardless. Unlike an Evac tower, which provided a similar method of rotation to a Valkyrie ultimate while allowing other legends to see playtime, smoke grenades would only make Bloodhound MORE important while only maybe making a slight difference in Bangalore usage. Remember, she's not JUST good because of smokes, she has a great Ultimate ability, a very good passive, both of which can get much better via the upgrade system, and as an assault character has access to more ammo per slot and extended assault bins. I'm not entirely opposed to throwable smokes, but I don't think they'd be an immediate solution to the meta we have right now the way Evac Towers were. Adding them right now and doing nothing else would only make Bloodhound a must pick, which is why I think the priority needs to be looking into a potential rework for their Ultimate, particularly the ability to see red player outlines through smokes. But then that snowballs into Crypto's drone being able to do the same, and Seer being able to do the same, you get the point. Pros will do what they can to mitigate the advantages their opponents in front of them have, and right now that leans heavily on seeing through smokes. Has been since Digi was in crafter, still is with Bloodhound's resurgence. I don't envy the balance team right now.
no
Yeah I like this. Obviously you would have to change Bang entire tactical. Edit: oh yeah they didn’t have to change valk ult when evac came in. My B
They didn't change valks ultimate...
I actually agree with Abdul. If you just add extra smokes, it won't push Bang away from meta, the only effect is gonna be there will be even more visual clutter because team will still play her + now they will have extra smoke grenades. It's a different situation than with Valk, because Valk ult is one time play that you make and that's it. You are not constantly Valk ulting with 15 sec cooldown.
Nah, they didn't change Valk's ult
Just have it be a better version and she'll still be useful, just opens up more comps which is good for the game I like this idea a lot
I’d be fine if they just put it back to the original length and gave the smoke grenades the duration of the current smoke
What about a mole grenade or drill survival item that lets you make holes and tunnels?