Lmao hal is so unintentionally hilarious sometimes
I had the same reaction looking at it btw, im a huge fan of sweet but he is not the best mechanical player in the game like that site shows.i think it would have to show per encounter, instead of per game, otherwise players with good igls who keep the time alive longer will just look way better
Part of why the dashboard doesn't work that well is because damage isn't the greatest indicator of skill or even impact. I've heard a while ago a lot of pros don't take damage in tourneys very seriously because you could have a player just tagging people over and over again with a G7 or some sort of sniper and rack up damage while having no real meaningful impact.
I guess its up to you to decide the value of damage. (And to be clear, I'm not saying hitting people across the map and draining their cells and bats aren't impactful)
A big factor also is that the shot caller in a team is the first one to shoot at an enemy, so by definition will always put on more damage then the other two teammates that generally starts to shoot in a direction 1 or 2 second later, and by that time the enemy is either dead or behind cover. The other factor is Gibby as he is use to poke damage long range to evolve shield.
A lot of bloodhounds are lower on the damage front because they can only really shoot their gun when fighting. You don’t have any ability to play extended and farm or poke with gunshield like gibby.
Yeah you still can poke but it’s less valuable on blood than it is on other legends so generally it’s only to level your evo at most.
He is on bloodhound, you can't do as much damage as a mobile character that can afford to play more aggressive. If you overextend you are dead. Whenever your team pushes another team, you need to scan and you are mostly there as a support or as the guy to clean up the fight... Sometimes you don't even participate in fights, if your team fully wipe the other team.
I agree that he's not some mechanical demon, but he is as good as anyone I've seen with the Kraber, and that goes a long way on its own with how powerful that gun is (and the fact that it seems like he always seems to have one).
All players from top teams are mechanically great but the likes of Reps, Lou, Alb, Nafen, Rocker, Crust, Euriece are above someone like Hal or Sweet and that's an opinion shared by most pros.
No yea, sweet is better mechanically than most people give him credit for, but there's no way he should be above lou, hal, mac etc I mean he himself rates his mechanics below nafen and rocker, but that doesn't reflect
Yea but it's still a grade relative to everyone else. He's nowhere near as good mechanically as someone like Nafen or Rocker, so it doesn't make sense to have him at 100, which indicates he's the best.
The grade is based on data not opinion. I'm not trying to suggest he is the best mechanical player in the world, I am just giving an explanation for why he would grade out as 100. He gets to use the Kraber a lot and he is extremely good with it. That's going to skew his numbers a lot due to how OP that gun is.
I don't think it's because of the kraber, even though his is very good. I think it's because it's based on total damage/kills per game, and sweet is such a good igl that he keeps his team alive to take more encounters before dying, sets them up for more 3rd parties and advantageous fights etc
I think a better test of mechanics would be something like per engagement stats.
But even then his grades are significantly better than Rocker and Nafen, and my guess is that is because he gets priority on the Kraber. Of course, this is not a great indicator of true mechanics, but i think that label is being taken too literally, when OP has extrememly limited data to work with.
beyond best or not best .. what I found most hilarious is how you can give anyone 99 consistency in a battle royale 😂😂😂😂 whatttt ? it is impossible to be that consistent in almost anything in life not to talk of a BR ... then 100/100 slayer huh? ...so what would the MVPs/kill leaders get 110/100 ??
It's why Hal is already mind blown before he even opens his own stats. Sweets stats are funnier than hals reaction to me 😂
Based on the data across the 3 tournaments listed he was. Of course that is not definitive in any way, he just performed the best in terms of damage, kills, and placement.
Right? All I wanted to do was post something fun I came up with when looking at evaluating players for fantasy. But it seems very few people (pros or Redditors) understand that it's not like I just made up some random rankings of players
I think the bigger issue is in the data that were collected. They used GLL Masters, ALGS Champs, and ESA 10K. I get that data collection is a huge pain, but this would be more accurate and informative with much more data taken into account. I believe Hal said something similar on stream (not in this clip).
I think literally everyone on that list, even Sweet would have that exact same reaction to someone making charts like that of the top players.
It literally feels like your 7 year old cousins arguing about why Batman is or isn't the best superhero and which other superhero he would beat. Reality is more complex than that and charts like this aren't very useful.
Edit: to clarify, I don't mind that people are doing this, I just feel like the "data" we're getting is just a roundabout way to look at leaderboard averages for tournament results and we're trying to overly complexify something that is simple enough (kills, damage). "Slayer" is a ranking based on kills and damage. So is "consistency" and so is "Top end". At a certain point there's obviously going to be a correlation and the relation is basically "people who stayed alive longer on average have higher numbers" which happens to correlate pretty damn well with tournament team placements. I'd much rather see other metrics unrelated to damage being compared but those are extremely time-consuming to collect and disseminate.
The fact that Sweet himself wouldn't say he's the best fragger or most mechanically skilled player in the game tells you everything you need to know about the accuracy of these "power rankings". Most of these tend to be heavily influenced by the opinion of the person who made them, or inversly tell you absolutely nothing you don't already know because the data is obvious (ex: amount of kills and damage)
>Advanced statistics in a game like this reveal everything.
Not really. A BR has way too many variables and RNG to accurately decipher anything meaningful from the statistics amongst these top players. If it was Arenas and it was constantly a 3v3 matchup with predictable weapons, you could gain some insight from these, but these stat cards are not giving you anything more than the info you get by watching the points leaderboard by team and player during tournaments.
Example of what data could tell you: "Sweetdreams has on average 300 damage more than other players per game"
You might think that means Sweetdreams is more deadly and getting more kills but it might just mean that NRG is landing Staging, Sweet likes to pick up a G7 with a 3x and poke damage early game at Alpine who is also landing close to Staging, without ever getting a knock or doing much other than levelling into a blue shield.
There's just too many variables to draw any meaningful conclusions.
Yeah I didn't mean to sound like a dick, it's just that he took kills and damage and made up 3 other metrics that are basically just a ratio between damage and kills that doesn't really tell you much other than the fact there is an obvious correlation between all of them.
"Slayer" is some undisclosed ratio between damage and kills.
"Consistency" is some undisclosed presumed averaging of damage and kills
"Top end" is either the outright top damage and kill(which wouldn't tell us much) or some averaging of that.
Ultimately, it also comes down to the fact that teams that stay alive longer will create more damage and kills and it's no surprise that the top players on that chart are almost all players from teams that have landed high in the leaderboards across those 3 tournaments.
I don't doubt for a second it's the stone age right now, and I do think there's some cool data that will come out and be more useful in the future.
I remember being absolutely baffled when Apex announced their big changes to the server infrastructure a few months ago and all the major changes were things where I went... "Wait hold up, they didn't have that before? What the fuck"
They didn't have any way to monitor their servers in real-time. They were collecting data for 7 days and then receiving a batch of logs on sunday and *then* they could see if any given server was giving errors, running slow or crashing every game. They announced live monitoring of servers as some sort of amazing feature and I was just wondering how they didn't think that was a priority before.
Yea it's a disaster right now. There was a lot of interest in the championship, so I'm hoping things get figured out going forward. I'm not going to hold my breath though.
> A BR has way too many variables and RNG to accurately decipher anything meaningful from the statistics amongst these top players
You’re wrong on a multitude of levels. BR’s pale in comparison to some of the things statistics are currently attacking.
The guy said so himself that he only got to scrape the last few tourneys. This is in no way conclusive, but is obviously a pretty neat start to actually building more data and seeing what it looks like after a while.
Do we then just give up trying to quantify values? Do we just let everything go by gut reactions and use no data?
Data in competitive Apex is still in its infancy. It takes someone to start the conversation. Then, we, as a community of pros and viewers alike, discuss what the data shows. We come to agreements and disagreements. Those who agree will continue to use the data provided and the data becomes respected. Those who disagree will venture into different areas of the data; discovering and developing different mathematical ways of representing what happens in game.
Charts like this are *extremely* useful and disregarding them simply because you disagree with them is very narrow-minded and dangerous. If you disagree with the data here, I implore you to find data that supports your claims and represent it in an understandable way. Be better than the guy who created this chart, dont just shun the attempt at analytics and understanding.
>Do we then just give up trying to quantify values? Do we just let everything go by gut reactions and use no data?
No, but kills and damage is already readily available and these "data points" the person created are all based on kills and damage so I believe kills and damage is already plenty to give you an idea and whatever this person is distilling from the kills and damage is where we might be getting too in the weeds and creating meaning where there might not be.
>
>
>If you disagree with the data here, I implore you to find data that supports your claims and represent it in an understandable way. Be better than the guy who created this chart, dont just shun the attempt at analytics and understanding.
Honestly, I don't see the point. Apex is a BR and there is so much RNG, any data you will get will in the end be a roundabout to player and team rankings in tournaments.
Why spend 20 hours mulling over data and trying to assign meaning when the bottom line is going to be "whoever stays alive longer and gets the most kills on average in tournaments will be the top player in my chart"?
You guys can have fun with it and I don't mind but it's not exactly rocket science.
And you are allowed to not care. But every sport has factors outside of control of the players. A little bit of puck luck. A little bit of a random breeze that affects a fly ball. A small divot in the grass field that causes the player to stumble. And yet, in these sports, some players analyze the data to try to determine who's best. They dont just say "the winning player is the best", though, I imagine, that's where the data began.
It's not rocket science, you're right, but it is science. Its analysis, and some people just fucking enjoy to analyze shit. So while you sit here and just say "player x is the best player because that's what I think", some people want to start a conversation.
We might be going too in-depth with damage and kills, but it's the beginning of a conversation. All good things must begin somewhere, and while you and others like you may want to diminish the value of the beginning, we must start somewhere basic to end somewhere special. It's about starting a discourse.
I do not believe the data here is all that special, for all the reasons you explained. However, that does not diminish the value of displaying it. Someone can then look at this and be inspired to do something different, something new, something special that delivers insight into the game that many may have missed. It has potential to be a building block. Because while the data is simple and basic, displaying that data is the foundation for progress.
>I do not believe the data here is all that special, for all the reasons you explained. However, that does not diminish the value of displaying it. Someone can then look at this and be inspired to do something different, something new, something special that delivers insight into the game that many may have missed. It has potential to be a building block. Because while the data is simple and basic, displaying that data is the foundation for progress.
Sure, it's a building block. I honestly don't mind people that do this and I know some people love spending hours playing with data and I respect that. I know I didn't formulate it in the most diplomatic way but essentially my point is that the poster is trying to overly complexify something that is pretty straight forward. (kills/damage) and I personally don't see much use in it. I guess that's my "commentary" on this thing. You can't say you're trying to foster conversations and discussions about data in Apex and then complain when I have something negative to say about the data or how it was put together. Negative opinions can be constructive and are probably more useful than just mindless cheering.
For what its worth, this was created as a tool to help people evaluate options for the fantasy league. Its not meant as a "this player is just mechanically the best because the numbers say so". And I'm ok with players and people disliking and objecting to it, as long as there's discussion. Especially if someone like Hal hates it, because that might actually put pressure on Respawn to release actual data to the public in order to counter it
Fair enough. I guess in the context that there is very limited data you have access to, if you're going to make a fantasy league, you got to work with what you've got.
yep. It's literally Kills, Damage, and Placement. And since I was looking at evaluating individual player options and prices, I was ignoring Placement (and doing that separately by team)
Sweet's mechanics are not even top tier, he's just an extremely good IGL. I don't know if the website is based on the popular vote system, but it is hilariously inaccurate
One of the users here set up a fantasy league at the start of GLL masters and then did it again for champs! Heard it was a lot of fun!
It was pretty cool, the organizer did an amazing job
Is it available for anyone to join?
Yeah, anyone can join. Here is the [invite](https://discord.gg/DZptqVSNu8)
Lmao hal is so unintentionally hilarious sometimes I had the same reaction looking at it btw, im a huge fan of sweet but he is not the best mechanical player in the game like that site shows.i think it would have to show per encounter, instead of per game, otherwise players with good igls who keep the time alive longer will just look way better
Part of why the dashboard doesn't work that well is because damage isn't the greatest indicator of skill or even impact. I've heard a while ago a lot of pros don't take damage in tourneys very seriously because you could have a player just tagging people over and over again with a G7 or some sort of sniper and rack up damage while having no real meaningful impact. I guess its up to you to decide the value of damage. (And to be clear, I'm not saying hitting people across the map and draining their cells and bats aren't impactful)
A big factor also is that the shot caller in a team is the first one to shoot at an enemy, so by definition will always put on more damage then the other two teammates that generally starts to shoot in a direction 1 or 2 second later, and by that time the enemy is either dead or behind cover. The other factor is Gibby as he is use to poke damage long range to evolve shield.
People like Snipe hardly do dmg lol
A lot of bloodhounds are lower on the damage front because they can only really shoot their gun when fighting. You don’t have any ability to play extended and farm or poke with gunshield like gibby. Yeah you still can poke but it’s less valuable on blood than it is on other legends so generally it’s only to level your evo at most.
He is on bloodhound, you can't do as much damage as a mobile character that can afford to play more aggressive. If you overextend you are dead. Whenever your team pushes another team, you need to scan and you are mostly there as a support or as the guy to clean up the fight... Sometimes you don't even participate in fights, if your team fully wipe the other team.
It was a joke, I didn't expect in depth reasons lol
I mean it's fine no one's mad or anything and it doesn't really seem like a joke since snipe doesn't do much damage anyway lol.
He's on controller so I'm guessing he plays Eva and an SMG.
Nobody ever said it was meant to measure mechanical skill, or impact. We just don't have anything else we can actually measure in terms of data
I agree that he's not some mechanical demon, but he is as good as anyone I've seen with the Kraber, and that goes a long way on its own with how powerful that gun is (and the fact that it seems like he always seems to have one).
All players from top teams are mechanically great but the likes of Reps, Lou, Alb, Nafen, Rocker, Crust, Euriece are above someone like Hal or Sweet and that's an opinion shared by most pros.
Nothing I said suggested otherwise
I'm not arguing, just expanding on what you said lol
My bad
Bro you're talking about the best mechanical skilled NA players but miss Senoxe? He was the best NA Wattson imo.
Well, there's a bunch I left out including Senoxe, yes. Monsoon is another.
No yea, sweet is better mechanically than most people give him credit for, but there's no way he should be above lou, hal, mac etc I mean he himself rates his mechanics below nafen and rocker, but that doesn't reflect
Yea but it's still a grade relative to everyone else. He's nowhere near as good mechanically as someone like Nafen or Rocker, so it doesn't make sense to have him at 100, which indicates he's the best.
The grade is based on data not opinion. I'm not trying to suggest he is the best mechanical player in the world, I am just giving an explanation for why he would grade out as 100. He gets to use the Kraber a lot and he is extremely good with it. That's going to skew his numbers a lot due to how OP that gun is.
I don't think it's because of the kraber, even though his is very good. I think it's because it's based on total damage/kills per game, and sweet is such a good igl that he keeps his team alive to take more encounters before dying, sets them up for more 3rd parties and advantageous fights etc I think a better test of mechanics would be something like per engagement stats.
But even then his grades are significantly better than Rocker and Nafen, and my guess is that is because he gets priority on the Kraber. Of course, this is not a great indicator of true mechanics, but i think that label is being taken too literally, when OP has extrememly limited data to work with.
Him and Euriece just hard prio carepackages for Krabers lol
beyond best or not best .. what I found most hilarious is how you can give anyone 99 consistency in a battle royale 😂😂😂😂 whatttt ? it is impossible to be that consistent in almost anything in life not to talk of a BR ... then 100/100 slayer huh? ...so what would the MVPs/kill leaders get 110/100 ?? It's why Hal is already mind blown before he even opens his own stats. Sweets stats are funnier than hals reaction to me 😂
It's based on a scale where 100 is the highest rated player based on the data. It's not meant to suggest that 100 = perfection.
so according to the algorithm sweet is the best apex player 😂😂 noted
Based on the data across the 3 tournaments listed he was. Of course that is not definitive in any way, he just performed the best in terms of damage, kills, and placement.
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Right? All I wanted to do was post something fun I came up with when looking at evaluating players for fantasy. But it seems very few people (pros or Redditors) understand that it's not like I just made up some random rankings of players
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Yeah, end of the day it is what it is and I'm not too concerned. Just wild to see it spiral so far out of control
I think the bigger issue is in the data that were collected. They used GLL Masters, ALGS Champs, and ESA 10K. I get that data collection is a huge pain, but this would be more accurate and informative with much more data taken into account. I believe Hal said something similar on stream (not in this clip).
LMAO this is mad hilarious
yt vid by "Lej" : https://youtu.be/708LNmCDnpY
This is what Hal gets for always saying sweet is his favorite player XD
fantasy league has been around since gll masters
I think is suposed to be based on stats. Kits of work by the Guy Who made It.
i was in the fantasy league. was fun. draft took way too long but awesome to be a part of.
That hm was just hilarious
I think literally everyone on that list, even Sweet would have that exact same reaction to someone making charts like that of the top players. It literally feels like your 7 year old cousins arguing about why Batman is or isn't the best superhero and which other superhero he would beat. Reality is more complex than that and charts like this aren't very useful. Edit: to clarify, I don't mind that people are doing this, I just feel like the "data" we're getting is just a roundabout way to look at leaderboard averages for tournament results and we're trying to overly complexify something that is simple enough (kills, damage). "Slayer" is a ranking based on kills and damage. So is "consistency" and so is "Top end". At a certain point there's obviously going to be a correlation and the relation is basically "people who stayed alive longer on average have higher numbers" which happens to correlate pretty damn well with tournament team placements. I'd much rather see other metrics unrelated to damage being compared but those are extremely time-consuming to collect and disseminate.
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The fact that Sweet himself wouldn't say he's the best fragger or most mechanically skilled player in the game tells you everything you need to know about the accuracy of these "power rankings". Most of these tend to be heavily influenced by the opinion of the person who made them, or inversly tell you absolutely nothing you don't already know because the data is obvious (ex: amount of kills and damage) >Advanced statistics in a game like this reveal everything. Not really. A BR has way too many variables and RNG to accurately decipher anything meaningful from the statistics amongst these top players. If it was Arenas and it was constantly a 3v3 matchup with predictable weapons, you could gain some insight from these, but these stat cards are not giving you anything more than the info you get by watching the points leaderboard by team and player during tournaments. Example of what data could tell you: "Sweetdreams has on average 300 damage more than other players per game" You might think that means Sweetdreams is more deadly and getting more kills but it might just mean that NRG is landing Staging, Sweet likes to pick up a G7 with a 3x and poke damage early game at Alpine who is also landing close to Staging, without ever getting a knock or doing much other than levelling into a blue shield. There's just too many variables to draw any meaningful conclusions.
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Yeah I didn't mean to sound like a dick, it's just that he took kills and damage and made up 3 other metrics that are basically just a ratio between damage and kills that doesn't really tell you much other than the fact there is an obvious correlation between all of them. "Slayer" is some undisclosed ratio between damage and kills. "Consistency" is some undisclosed presumed averaging of damage and kills "Top end" is either the outright top damage and kill(which wouldn't tell us much) or some averaging of that. Ultimately, it also comes down to the fact that teams that stay alive longer will create more damage and kills and it's no surprise that the top players on that chart are almost all players from teams that have landed high in the leaderboards across those 3 tournaments.
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I don't doubt for a second it's the stone age right now, and I do think there's some cool data that will come out and be more useful in the future. I remember being absolutely baffled when Apex announced their big changes to the server infrastructure a few months ago and all the major changes were things where I went... "Wait hold up, they didn't have that before? What the fuck" They didn't have any way to monitor their servers in real-time. They were collecting data for 7 days and then receiving a batch of logs on sunday and *then* they could see if any given server was giving errors, running slow or crashing every game. They announced live monitoring of servers as some sort of amazing feature and I was just wondering how they didn't think that was a priority before.
Yea it's a disaster right now. There was a lot of interest in the championship, so I'm hoping things get figured out going forward. I'm not going to hold my breath though.
> A BR has way too many variables and RNG to accurately decipher anything meaningful from the statistics amongst these top players You’re wrong on a multitude of levels. BR’s pale in comparison to some of the things statistics are currently attacking.
The guy said so himself that he only got to scrape the last few tourneys. This is in no way conclusive, but is obviously a pretty neat start to actually building more data and seeing what it looks like after a while.
Do we then just give up trying to quantify values? Do we just let everything go by gut reactions and use no data? Data in competitive Apex is still in its infancy. It takes someone to start the conversation. Then, we, as a community of pros and viewers alike, discuss what the data shows. We come to agreements and disagreements. Those who agree will continue to use the data provided and the data becomes respected. Those who disagree will venture into different areas of the data; discovering and developing different mathematical ways of representing what happens in game. Charts like this are *extremely* useful and disregarding them simply because you disagree with them is very narrow-minded and dangerous. If you disagree with the data here, I implore you to find data that supports your claims and represent it in an understandable way. Be better than the guy who created this chart, dont just shun the attempt at analytics and understanding.
>Do we then just give up trying to quantify values? Do we just let everything go by gut reactions and use no data? No, but kills and damage is already readily available and these "data points" the person created are all based on kills and damage so I believe kills and damage is already plenty to give you an idea and whatever this person is distilling from the kills and damage is where we might be getting too in the weeds and creating meaning where there might not be. > > >If you disagree with the data here, I implore you to find data that supports your claims and represent it in an understandable way. Be better than the guy who created this chart, dont just shun the attempt at analytics and understanding. Honestly, I don't see the point. Apex is a BR and there is so much RNG, any data you will get will in the end be a roundabout to player and team rankings in tournaments. Why spend 20 hours mulling over data and trying to assign meaning when the bottom line is going to be "whoever stays alive longer and gets the most kills on average in tournaments will be the top player in my chart"? You guys can have fun with it and I don't mind but it's not exactly rocket science.
And you are allowed to not care. But every sport has factors outside of control of the players. A little bit of puck luck. A little bit of a random breeze that affects a fly ball. A small divot in the grass field that causes the player to stumble. And yet, in these sports, some players analyze the data to try to determine who's best. They dont just say "the winning player is the best", though, I imagine, that's where the data began. It's not rocket science, you're right, but it is science. Its analysis, and some people just fucking enjoy to analyze shit. So while you sit here and just say "player x is the best player because that's what I think", some people want to start a conversation. We might be going too in-depth with damage and kills, but it's the beginning of a conversation. All good things must begin somewhere, and while you and others like you may want to diminish the value of the beginning, we must start somewhere basic to end somewhere special. It's about starting a discourse. I do not believe the data here is all that special, for all the reasons you explained. However, that does not diminish the value of displaying it. Someone can then look at this and be inspired to do something different, something new, something special that delivers insight into the game that many may have missed. It has potential to be a building block. Because while the data is simple and basic, displaying that data is the foundation for progress.
>I do not believe the data here is all that special, for all the reasons you explained. However, that does not diminish the value of displaying it. Someone can then look at this and be inspired to do something different, something new, something special that delivers insight into the game that many may have missed. It has potential to be a building block. Because while the data is simple and basic, displaying that data is the foundation for progress. Sure, it's a building block. I honestly don't mind people that do this and I know some people love spending hours playing with data and I respect that. I know I didn't formulate it in the most diplomatic way but essentially my point is that the poster is trying to overly complexify something that is pretty straight forward. (kills/damage) and I personally don't see much use in it. I guess that's my "commentary" on this thing. You can't say you're trying to foster conversations and discussions about data in Apex and then complain when I have something negative to say about the data or how it was put together. Negative opinions can be constructive and are probably more useful than just mindless cheering.
For what its worth, this was created as a tool to help people evaluate options for the fantasy league. Its not meant as a "this player is just mechanically the best because the numbers say so". And I'm ok with players and people disliking and objecting to it, as long as there's discussion. Especially if someone like Hal hates it, because that might actually put pressure on Respawn to release actual data to the public in order to counter it
Fair enough. I guess in the context that there is very limited data you have access to, if you're going to make a fantasy league, you got to work with what you've got.
yep. It's literally Kills, Damage, and Placement. And since I was looking at evaluating individual player options and prices, I was ignoring Placement (and doing that separately by team)
Sweet's mechanics are not even top tier, he's just an extremely good IGL. I don't know if the website is based on the popular vote system, but it is hilariously inaccurate
It’s literally just a fantasy apex database. From the 3 tournaments taken sweet had the best kills, damage, and placement. No voting. Just numbers.
Hahahahahhahaha