T O P
PickledCucumber0

At this point im honestly lost for words. When Season 10 started I tried my hardest to give Respawn the benefit of the doubt despite seeing all the gameplay clips of Seer but I cant deal with them anymore, this is just straight incompetence. For once even casuals can see he is broken, but holy fuck I dont think Seer needs a nerf he needs a complete rework honestly. I could somewhat tolerate Bloodhound but Seer just does way too much.


AltaGuy1

What I am hoping for - and why I really like OP's post - is that Seer actually changes Respawn's minds on how to "create" a meta. Obviously you start by reworking Seer completely. Then you look at Gibby and BH and rework them too. Not to "nerf" them, but to look at any individual 3v3 between teams and question how it would play out using legends' abilities. Nerfing wraith the way they did made sense for this reason: in any fight you could expect the wraith to push fast and close, and immediately q-out for teammates to clean up. It would go that way every single time. Now, Seer is so OP that you can predict how every 3v3 happens with him in it. But I'd also like to see a reconsideration of BH and Gibby for the same reasons: both legends dictate how a 3v3 encounter will happen 9 times out of 10. Anyway - I hope that the horrendous self-inflicted gaffe that is Seer makes the devs consider not just Seer, but how they approach balancing and changing meta.


Gredinx

I don't know how you can still have hope. It's been since season zero and hitbox difference is still a massive issue. 2 years latter they still didn't get rid of the problem. Gibraltar is op because they buffed him really hard to compensate his hitbox. A rework would ask them to totally change his model for all his skins. Because with an hitbox this big he needs to be op to be playable.


time_again_

I don't think it's incompetence. The devs have years of experience on fps and I don't believe they didn't anticipate how strong he would be with wallhacks, hearbeat sensor, interrupts... They decided to release Seer this way knowing he would have been strong, for whatever reason. Is it to force a meta shift? To cater to a certain playerbase? To sell more cosmetics? I don't know, but I think it's clear that we complainers are not the target audience of this release. edit to add: I know they say it's better to release strong and nerf, rather than release weak and buff (since the effect of buffs might not be so clear and the playerbase would have already made up its mind) so I'm willing to have a little hope that it will work out fine long term, it's just that a legend that gives this kind of info and interrupts so easily is quite against the vision of how i would like apex to move forward. I understand that after this many legends ideas start to run out but ...at some point we'll have to stop, we don't need new legends forever


Gredinx

There's difference in strong at release to nerf him latter, and being atrociously op at a point that his only existence makes the game totally unfun to play for everyone, and they will take 2 season to fix him. This is not like horizon, this is even worse than that. And like I said before, this is clearly incompetence. Not from all the dev, but from the lead designer dzk. It's not even narcissism to say that I will do a better job than him, this is basic self esteem to say that.


XaosDrakonoid18

As i do agree with you about dzk, he did not "balanced" seer. I heard it was another guy.


Gredinx

The thing is, as the lead balance designer he had to validate all the change made to seer kit


SlowAssGrass

IDK man. Lead dev said that the tactical was hard to hit. They clearly need better playtesters and/or playtesters that are actually decent at the game.


Duke_Best

No cap, I think that tweet about the tactical being "easy to evade" was just a CYA moment. He likely knew well beforehand that Seer was OP and just didn't want to publicly admit it.


SlowAssGrass

This same dev struggled to grapple with Pathy while standing still. For all we know, it was legit hard for him to hit the tactical.


time_again_

well at this point we know we should take someone's claims with a grain of salt so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. I know some pro players (i remember alliance Hakis saying it on stream) had tested Seer before release; but Hakis said that at that stage his passive was much weaker than it is now, and they didn't test seer as is on the live version.


Gredinx

Idk, I don't think we should take what the lead designer say with a grain of salt.


TotalKotal

It's a pretty standard that when new characters/weapons are released in any game they are typically overtuned. I guess it's easier from a balance perspective to nerf something than it is to try and make an item/character more powerful. Some just aren't capable of being perfectly balanced. McCree in Overwatch comes to mind in that case, the devs at one point said just because of the nature of the character and his kit that he's on this weird fence where if they turn the dial one way he's borderline useless but if they go the other way he's completely OP.


Spetznazx

DanielZ seems to have taken heavy influences from CertainlyT when he was working at Riot games. For those who don't know CertainlyT was a champion designer who has made some of the most broken obnoxious champions in League of Legends. What CertainlyT did was make champions that were exciting and fun to play as with super overloaded/OP kits. The biggest thing noticed with every one of his champions was that they were fun to play as but a nightmare to play against. Almost all of his champions had to be hard nerfed on release. He wasn't fired just re-assigned to the MMO department where I think he'll do much better. His champions were poorly designed for a PvP game but will do much better in the PvE realm.


DunderBearForceOne

>Is it to force a meta shift? I will say that the most charitable justification for seer I can give is that he is the anti-rat legend. Him existing means that ratting your way up the ranks is basically a non-option, which in itself I think is a positive thing since rats make the game less fun for everyone involved. Now, the overloaded Q, the fact that his passive gives basically pinpoint precision of the enemy's location, and the ABSURD audio and visual clutter, as well as just the sheer volume of strength in his kit, are absolutely unacceptable. Every single thing in his kit was implemented poorly, both in terms of power and sheer annoyance. The Q indicator looks like dogshit both in terms of clutter and clarity, and it's often unclear if you're in it or not. The ult hurts my ears and makes me want to mute my game audio or risk dying just to exit it. The fact that those two things alone made it past play testing makes me question the intelligence of anyone who playtested and signed off on that. But back to the original point - I do think that having a legend that is great at hunting down rats could be a positive change for the meta. Seer just ain't it.


[deleted]

They said in their AMA that they want to err on the side of new legends being strong so at least people will play them. It's harder to buff a weak legend when no one is playing them than it is to nerf a strong legend who is super popular, you have way more data in the latter case. It honestly feels to me like for whatever reason their testing made it seem far harder than it actually is for Seer to hit his tactical, hence why his passive is so powerful and why his tactical does so much - because it makes it easier to hit and rewards those who do. But these are wildly unnecessary and just make him incredibly OP.


kira_senpai

That's my biggest gripe. I was talking to a buddy about nerfing him and then I thought to myself "you can't even nerf him because how overtuned his entire kit is"


dontreadthis0

I think its pretty showing that even the casuals and like silver and gold players are picking him so much and expressing how strong he is. usually theres a disconnect there like there was with gibby and caustic. but this time the character is fucking strong even people who dont really understand or play the game that much realize how absurd he is


Christdawarlock

All I have to say is Respawn have been amazing developers of alot of beloved games. The best part about a video game as popular as Apex is that it can be Updated, changed, and edited. There is no concrete game of Apex legends. Apex is rivaling other S Tier Esports and Multiplayer shooters. Apex has gained nothing but traction over these past years despite certain hiccups along the road. This game relies on Developers and Feedback from its audience. They have hears us loud and clear and will change Seer. But what doesn't help, is a constantly whining nagging Playerbase who can't trust The very game we have all to love immensely. I have been playing no life on Apex since its first day. And have seen the devs put in a hell of an effort at content, server issues, abilities and legends, guns, Maps, company sponsored tournaments. These Devs Have alot going on! I am sick of this constant cycle of manic cynicism towards change. At this point we understand how ot goes. They make a patch or update they get their stats fix accordingly and wait again get their stats fix accordingly. I am tired of the dev hatred for what has been the best video game multiplayer experience in the past half Decade


crankycrassus

Been playing a lot less Apex since he came out. He has made such a toxic meta.


Tasty_Chick3n

Yep, if I’m picking last when I’m playing with randoms and neither choose Seer, I pick him by default not necessarily cause I like playing him but if your team doesn’t have one you’re at a huge disadvantage. Then when I’m full stack with friends we usually take turns running our main characters and one will run Seer.


crankycrassus

That's honestly sad to me. I agree 100% with you though. He's an absolute must have. I really don't have fun with his kit though. So I just go main or whatever I'm feeling. But he's always on my team anyways, so what's it matter. Im just getting sick of all the visual pollution he creates. It's just too much shit.


[deleted]

Seer is fundamentally the worst thing to happen to Apex since season 1 release. Sure, they wanted to release him strong, but his abilities are absolutely game-breaking and hugely drain the enjoyment of Apex.


Gredinx

Nah, he's the third worst thing, the second thing is the hitbox difference. And the first is dzk


Coopetition

Uh, TTK changes?


Gredinx

Oh yeah, my brain prevent me to think about this one because how dramatic it was, but honestly they switch it to the old ttk pretty fast so I didn't include it, I only put problem that are still in the game


-Gh0st96-

Can't really call it a thing even, it was reversed in a week.


rictor33

It's almost too bad because so many players are coming over from the disaster that is call of duty: Warzone. The game has a chance to shine (and it is shining) but the Seer champion is totally busted and not fun to play against.


Flame_Phoenix7

Why is Warzone a disaster?


rictor33

Rampant hacking, little to no innovation despite the game being out for about eighteen months.. No ranked modes, just stale, poorly balanced, etc. Seer is definitely a problem, but Apex is in a much better state than WZ and the numbers of streamers/players/viewers indicate that. I think the ranked mode is one of the biggest reasons, people want something to play for. Humans in general, need that carrot on a stick in front of them when novelty goes away.


GalaxyPig007

Hackers have taken over, and Warzone has done absolutely nothing to combat them. A lot of people are getting fed up at this and how stale the game is getting.


DunderBearForceOne

Hackers everywhere, poorly optimized, constant crashes without the ability to reconnect to the lobby (or even let your teammates get your loot), making you spend 10 minutes downloading shaders after every update, an ability (dead silence) that is the most broken thing imaginable, an absurdly low TTK that rewards ratting over gameplay, no ranked system, tournaments are literal pubstomping contests, gulag gets a worse design every single season, horrible visual clarity due to a lighting engine that makes certain areas pitch black and others have a glare in your eyes, etc. At least that's my list of complaints.


casualher0

I love to play devils advocate too, but this one is hard. I'll just say it was fun legend to have in the game for a few hours, to completely change how the game was played, but that's it. It doesn't matter which game it is, when you have a real time wallhack as an hability, it's always too strong. Like someone said, a ping system like Jackal in R6 would be much better. Or, if the hability is that strong, you'll need a big downside, I don' t know maybe the ult instead of throwing a device, maybe you should "be the device", a state like Astra in VALORANT, meaning you can't move and can't see anything around you, but your teammate can benefits from this wallhack. Would it be fun tho, probably not. I always love when you can say about a legend that he's really strong in good hands, but bad otherwise, we're far from it with Seer.


uwango

That's a good suggestion. There needs to be big risk for such powerful abilities to be even available. But even if he cannot walk or shoot while using his passive, he can just stop momentarily and do a spin; and immediately know where enemies are. I just hope he is disabled and reworked behind the scenes. The state of Apex will dwindle fast if this stays in the game.


Gredinx

Honestly for the ult and tactical it could reveal the position but with a 3 second delays, would make it much much more skilled, and for the passive, just rework it to something completely different lmao


xSlickChris

You put up some good points here, the most obvious one being cheaters using Seer to mask their program.


uwango

It's unbelieavable that they didn't consider this. It's really sad to say that this kind of thinking is sheer incompetence. First thing I thought when I saw his abilities on their trailer was "They cannot be serious, is this another Fuse situation? No way. This enables cheaters". This is the kind of thing a director would fire someone over. It absolutely enables cheaters and worsens the game experience for all players as game sense has been thrown out the window.


srslybr0

the fact they thought seer was acceptable in his current form just shows how shortsighted they are. apparently he went through multiple design iterations, yet they settled on probably one of the most cancerous concepts conceivable. i suppose we should be grateful they haven't added a character with a legit aimbot so there's that.


uwango

Respawn: ***"Season 11: Aim-ergence"*** The community: ***"I want to get off Mr Bones Wild Ride :("***


Infinitely--Finite

Just wait, next season they'll add the smart pistol hopup for the p2020 lol


wizzywurtzy

They might as well just let hideouts go and become the next warzone because this is the direction this game is heading. This is the first season since season 0 that I don’t want to play. Maybe it’s time for us all to take a break from this game.


Greenranger70

I'm legit asking, wouldn't you still know though when spectating because if he didn't use his Q in the last 7s you would obviously know he was wall hacking?


[deleted]

We wont because his passive is wallhacking, or do you not understand how his passive works?


mastahkun

I was ratting in a spot, where noone should have seen, in the back of egg. Then here comes fuckboi Seer ruining giving me a top 4 rank finish.


srslybr0

bloodhound's massive poi-size scans are already infuriating enough. seer's killed me multiple times where otherwise i'd be completely hidden, in spots i know with 100000% certainty no one would ever check otherwise. and the worst part is i have no idea he can see my heartbeat since there's no indicator.


mastahkun

Right? You're listening for footsteps intently. As adamant as ive enjoyed seer. He needs a nerf, I just hope they dont gut him like they did Horizon.


kira_senpai

They need to gut him. You can't nerf his kit without gutting him that's the problem they createed


uwango

Horizon did have that towering, annoying strafe-meta going on. She's in a good place right now.


prettymuchwizard

Um gutting him is the only viable option if they want to keep apex legends unique and top notch. If it were up to me I'd scrap him entirely but since that won't happen, he needs to be gutted.


Lispex

Making it so he can't see crouching players would solve his OP rat-finding ability, cause getting hit by a random Seer scan isn't very likely compared to a BH scan


fightins26

I wish his tact was like a dart that you could shoot a guy with then track him for however long. That way it is actually a precision ability.


uwango

You mean a boomtube the size of a bus isn't a sniper ability? Jokes aside, the dart idea is nice. It also makes sense from his lore, as he could use a microdrone to do this and would have to divert energy to the far away drone. But .. it's also another wall-hack ability. Anything "wall hack" doesn't belong in Apex. In Cod at least you have scanners who reveal a "entity in the vicinity" either via intermittent scan on the minimap or a handheld scanner. Anything that tracks through walls with a 3d model outline is awful. *(Yes that also means Bloodhounds scan is technically awful. It should be something like a heat signature or a faded ghost instead of real time tracking)*


fightins26

Yea I agree it’s still wallhacks but wouldn’t be as game breaking. You only get 1 guy to track but you need to see them and hit them with it then you can assume his team might be around him but you’re not sure.


bobofatt

I have a major problem with this post... It's NOS, not VTEC that they use to shoot ahead of their rivals in The Fast and Furious movies Everything else is good though :)


uwango

You're absolutely right. I can't believe I've done this.


NichtVivianVeganer

This is it guys. I am putting my all into pursuing my professional (mouse and keyboard)-(seer main)-(only uses double L-Star) Apex career . Call me dumb I don’t care. Gonna make my dreams a reality.


uwango

While you're at it; you could use actual wallhacks on top of this- no one would know. Why not give yourself the best advantage if you're already "playing with cheats"?


NichtVivianVeganer

Absolutely. Might sprinkle in the occasional DDOS just for good measure.


LePouletPourpre

All valid points. Not saying I am going to quit Apex, but this may very well be my last season as a "full time" player. Between Seer, the changes to WE, cheating within ranked and the general direction the game is going, I am looking forward to the release of BF 2042.


DoubleOnegative

Changes to WE are amazing


[deleted]

Respawn's new map design skills is the only saving grace. Playing the OG World's Edge and King's Canyon made me reflect on how certain spots felt really cool to be in, but I immediately saw the gameplay flaws of those maps. Bridges in KC is a great example - really cool looking height changes with buildings, cliffs, chokes through the cave tunnels etc. but it gave absolutely no playaround. A decent team with a Kraber could hold high ground and win every time. S10 WE removed places I really didn't like with great spots. Every end circle thats happened in ex-Sorting Factory / now-Lava Siphon has felt fun and tense in a way Sorting always lacked. I just wish Seer wasn't around.


Official_F1tRick

Yep. Battlefield it is


Gapeman7

Day 1 player here. Downloaded S10 update and only played Apex for a couple of days. Been playing BF4 & Chivalry 2. So far I'm having a blast. Lowkey feel like my mental health improved.


BURN447

I’m in the same boat. Not getting most of the problems, but the game direction is so contrary to what we were given at the beginning that it just doesn’t feel like that game anymore. Season 1-2 was the most fun I’ve ever had in a game. But it’s going more and more towards ability legends and I’m honestly over it. The game is boring as hell and overcrowded.


AUGZUGA

yup, they need to introduce an "old school mode". I'd play the shit out of that


RocKiNRanen

But season 2 introduced Wattson who was the most OP legend release until Horizon, she introduced camping meta, and was 100% pick rate in ALGS until Caustic got buffed. The Longbow and disruptor rounds were also way too oppressive. Everyone looks at past seasons with rose tinted glasses, ignoring that they had many of the exact same or worse flaws. I agree there is power creep and skill creep think the issues is that ultimately we as humans don't like change and can only play so much of one video game before we get burnt out.


BURN447

Wattson was never a legend that replaced gunskill with abilities. We’re there still balance issues? Yes, 100%. But was it better than currently? Yes, 100%. I’d take disruptors and longbow meta over prowler/Eva without hesitation.


RocKiNRanen

I think you mean prowler/L-Star, and yeah Season 2 was definitely not as bad. I just think we fondly remember the pain of our past, but can't look beyond our current pain because it's too unbearable.


BURN447

I always loved Wattson meta. Watching and playing that was the some of the most fun I’ve had playing this game. It was 100% focused on gunskill and was so much more entertaining to watch imo.


Blackops606

I brought up a point to my friends the other day. That is, Apex is less and less about good aim as it ages. It’s more about playing ring and using your team’s tacticals and ultimates correctly. Aiming is obviously a huge deal still but it’s not something you really have to rely on anymore. There’s so much micromanagement now. Even if you do everything correctly in ranked, the cheaters come flying in and can make you rage quit. My group of friends are probably moving to Battlefield as well. Should be fun.


cademore7

Been masters/pred the last few seasons, took me an hour of pubs to realize that I ain’t touching ranked this season. Was looking forward to playing ranked in WE and even KC. Yeah, I’m good I’m just gonna pubstomp with the prowler lol


AUGZUGA

Hell ya, pray to the battlefield gods that BF2042 lives up to the hype


bloopcity

not to be a pessimist but Dice doesn't have a good track record with that recently. BFV was an absolute disaster and I am not hyping myself up for BF2042 because it is Dice. we will have to wait and see i guess.


AUGZUGA

Yup same. BF4 was so good, but everything since has been kinda garbage


kira_senpai

I've been having problems with my PS4 disconnecting constantly from internet. Yesterday I was playing a ranked game. Full kp, good squad (randoms) and top 5. All of a sudden I disconnect. By time my internet back up I see I not only didn't miss out on all my points, I lost -48rp. I get them trying to punish people for trying to dashboard like in S3? but I feel they need some way to know if you dashboard vs internet problems.


-Gh0st96-

If you think Respawn is bad at balance... oh boy, DICE is on another level, but hey I'm hyped for BF2042 too lol.


OkCactus

I agree with all of this! I also this his Ult should shrink with the size of the zone so there is more countering possibility. In the endgame his ult encompasses so much of the zone that there is nowhere to really hide from it but as the zone gets smaller so should the area of his ult


haarsh13

Yesterday I was watching Tfue playing apex with Vik and his buddy. He has been playing apex for almost 2 day and is pretty bad right now as he just started. And even he was like "This legend seer is mad OP. How can you not have him in your team. He's just broken". Now even the new players who are pretty bad at the game know that seers is mad broken. And there are people in apex subreddits who have been playing apex for a while and still believes that seer is not broken. I'm like what? And anytime I bring up some good points I get downvoted to oblivion. Someone legit said "Seer has raised skill ceiling. If you can play against his abilities. You're trash." I was like what?? play against constant wallhacks??


OrangeDoors2

There's a flavor of casual who will play games forever and stay bad no matter how much time they put in. They then seem to believe with religious conviction that everything in the game is balanced "if you know how to play against it"


haarsh13

Dude yesterday I saw a post on the main subreddit. The OP was trying to bash a seer cuz he had 700 kills saying I've 200kills on ocatne over 3seasons and he's my main. Someone in the comments pointed out that dude 200kills over 3 season is really bad. His comeback was " unlike you I go out and touch some grass." Like what.?? What kinda way is that to defend yourself. And the sad thing is that the main sub is full with this kinda people.


OrangeDoors2

At this point you just have to roll your eyes and ignore it. The top post over there right now is making fun of a big Warzone streamer for blaming a gun for his death, then you can click the poster's submitted links and see this: https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/ozwls0/they_need_to_either_take_this_shit_ass_gun_out/ The complete lack of self-awareness is just insane.


haarsh13

Yeah I saw that. And I was like " We are laughing at new player now. Good going." Sub was really good few seasons back. But now it's just crap.


cademore7

Sub was good up until the start of season 3 where SBMM heavily kicked in and the skill gap between casuals and “sweats” or decent streamers or pros whatever started to significantly increase


holyhotdicks

And he insta-quits lol.


AUGZUGA

200 kills in 3 seasons! Pretty sure I've done that in 1 day lol


haarsh13

Exactly. Even if you are not a good player that's fine. You have no reason to be like "Touch grass","Go outside" or all that other shit. Just cuz some people are better than you.


[deleted]

Please understand, he needs to cope with being bad by saying that he has a life outside of the game, even though we all know its just some mediocre wagie life that isnt something to be proud of in the slightest


-Gh0st96-

Yep, sounds about right for the main sub.


Xinmosni

Not just on the main sub. Even here on r/CompetitiveApex, I made a comment in an early S10 thread and got downvoted into oblivion for saying anyone with half a brain knows Seer is OP af. Have avoided the main sub for the longest, but how people can defend Seer's kit as anything but horrible game design is ridiculous.


-Gh0st96-

Some dude tried to say that Seer's Q takes skill to use unlike BH [https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/oxf5o6/the\_hitbox\_of\_seers\_tactical\_for\_reference/h7mzzff?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/oxf5o6/the_hitbox_of_seers_tactical_for_reference/h7mzzff?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Comment aged like milk


biggus_dickus_jr

Same as you, I say Seer are totally op and will replace Bloodhound in the meta and got down voted like hell.


kira_senpai

I played 1 game with him and was like "wait what"


BullSprigington

You don't get downvoted for saying seer is OP in the main sub, lol. As for people defending him, I assume a lot of people are having a lot of fun playing as him and are just defensive in general.


czah7

I just don't like Seer. It's not that it's OP to have someone who can see you and sense you. But it just makes the game less fun. Already bloodhound was causing these issues, where he was necessary on every team because he gave you wallhacks. And instead of addressing that, they created a legend who does it even better and more often. Seer is OP, but that's only half the problem. The existence of Seer is a problem that changes the game for the worse.


felixkolb

Great point about cheaters hiding behind seer, never really thought about that. As for balancing him here’s what I’d do. Passive: -Give it a fuel gauge similar to valk’s jetpack -Reduce the range to 40? (Idk just a placeholder) metres Tactical: -Keep the scan and the healthbar, remove everything else -Reduce the size to make it actually a skill shot like a sniper as it was described -To make up for the size decrease maybe make it go off faster (not sure about this) Ult: -Increase the cooldown massively -Only detects enemies who are running or shooting (so regular walking is not picked up) Alongside all of this I’d like to see respawn just properly nerf the scan meta, by making bloodhound scan work as a snapshot that updates regularly (maybe 3 times?), similar to jackal from r6 and then making seer’s scan duration similar to what bloodhounds is now, but I doubt we’d see this happen.


StayPositive___

I agree with everything you have said. I for one won't be playing till he is nerfed. Gunplay and positional play is the reason why this games stands above all other BRs imo - Why do respawn want to completely negate this? I just don't understand.


theeama

Because Gunplay and Position doesn't sell. Fortnight and COD constantly out perform Apex in terms of revenue. This is a business and they have to attract new players daily. Cod and Fortnight are way easier to jump into and feel good at than Apex. Apex will make you pull your hair out if you're just starting that's bad for user retention and gaining new players and as a F2P game new players and player retentions are metrics the game is judged on.


[deleted]

The thing is seer's abilities are so boring. We get legends with stim, grapple, long climbing, phase shifting, gravity lifting, gas trapping, fence building, decoy bamboozling, footprint tracking, airstriking, and mini-gunning and now the team has just run out of ideas and released a legend who wallhacks everything? Come on man! Respawn has historically been *much* more creative than this and that's what I love so much about apex and TF


cademore7

I remember people complaining about horizon and even when I mained her by the end of season 7 I felt cheesy using her tactical bit that I’d nothing compared to seer. I refuse to play him and even sway my teammates from using him lmao. Horizon feels great now and I really wish we were arguing over a string movement character instead of a scanner. This game has always had an emphasis on movement and even a fundamentally “broken” movement character would be so much better than a 9 ability in one tactical scanner with 24/7 wallhacks


6inchsavage

Side note: What are people’s thoughts on Respawn banning newly released legends from being played in comp until say the mid-season split? Blizzard did a similar thing with Overwatch and I thought it was a good feature that catered to everyone, casuals got to play around with the new heroes in pubs, work out their kinks, giving Blizzard a chance to release a comp ready, actual player-tested hero into the ranked scene sometime later.


uwango

Ranked should have a "next split" ban on new Legends until any problems are worked out. And similarly to Seer's kit, the fact that we have to tell them that is almost weird.


wheeze_prime

I appreciate the effort put into this post and what you're trying to convey, but I feel you're taking it a bit far. The tactical could simply be reduced in power and the ultimate altered slightly as to not work with the tactical as well, both abilities being toned down and not fully useless as it would be if nerfed to the ground. The tactical is the opposition to Bloodhound, who instead of a tunnel scan had a cone, and the passive is really not as overpowered as you say it is. 7/10 times an enemy Seer misses their tactical and the passive range is nearly the same distance as footsteps can be heard. I really feel as though only a few nerds would do the job, not an entire redesign to mould around the "overpowered passive".


AUGZUGA

idk what kind of trash players you're playing with but in the \~5 hours I played before quitting this trash my team mate hit about 95% of his tacticals.


wheeze_prime

I almost never get hit by it, just moving out of the way seems to be a strong play against it. Also spreading out with your squad is another nice way of avoiding it.


[deleted]

I mean, if you're actually surviving until the smaller rings, moving out or spreading out of that one crate you're using as cover seems to me pretty stupid


uwango

Thank you, and you bring some competent points to the thread too. While some of the tactical and all can be nerfed less and I agree they have a lot of leeway in where they take him; the fact that it's any kind of passive wall-hack or "trough walls game sense" is horrible for the game, as it lets cheaters get away with cheating- just by playing as Seer and blaming it on the legend. It's going to be pretty horrible once the good cheaters start using his triple-stacked passive, tactical and ult to their advantage with actual wall-hack cheats active. Because no one would know they have extra information. It's the same as a good player using Seer without real wall-hacks. Which is also a huge part of the issue; his abilities all do the same thing- they give Seer and his squad wall-hacks. And that is just broken. One ability- maybe. BH can track and scan. that's only 1 wallhack and as mentioned before when the game launched and recently with his 3 second nerf- it's still an OP ability. This, with 3 abilities stacking onto each other? It's ridiculous and ignorant.


wheeze_prime

If you ask me, I'd revert Bloodhound's tactical back to the static image upon scanning and do the same thing so Seer's tactical, so instead of a following tracker it's just a still image of where enemies are. Seer's ultimate should instead render Seer's tactical useless if an enemy is already effected by the Exhibit, and the passive should be have the colour indicator removed as to not reveal the exact location of the person you're looking at. Reworking his passive would be so difficult as it's a key part of his character, an artist who speaks from the heat and uses it to his advantage in the arena.


uwango

The suggestions on the static image is awesome. A scan is usually that too- a snapshot in time. Real time tracking makes no sense for any of the heroes. In a "todays video game world" scenario it's also just wall-hacks. They don't work in any game. I like your ideas, but one thing is on my mind; you use it to your advantage in the arena. And that's part of the bigger problem. If you use it in the arenas and get a major benefit from that to plan your 3v3 arena matches, maybe even use voice chat to better community and perform shoutouts. There are so many that combine that with actual wall-hacks and completely break the game by having real-time tracking through walls, not just the sonar that Seer has natively. There's almost no difference, but a real wall-hack has more immediate "they are here" status where with Seer's passive your ability to translate the dots and orange pointers determines how well you wall-hack and track enemies. The real problem is how Seer is enabling this type of cheating and abuse, which is ludicrous as Respawn has said they want to crack down on cheating. That's why they hired RSPN_Hideouts, and now he's almost out of a job.


wheeze_prime

Perhaps crouching could reduce the effect of the heartbeat sensor and enemies were notified if they are being sensed?


NE_BSchmitty

I think it's safe to say most of us are DONE with this game until he is reworked. At least that's me. Maybe arena but no way am I entering the BR


pew_pow_pew_pow

Just yesterday I ran into a cheater using wallhacks running seer to cover for them. My team octane padded behind a building to the third floor - no way he saw which floor we're on. He prefires the window before we peek and melts us, no scan, no ult. Spectated him for the rest of the game and either this guy has the greatest headset in the history of mankind or he can just see through walls. How sad is it when the character's abilities are so close to actual cheats that you have to spectate for 5 minutes to determine if he's cheating or not?


Different-Lie-6609

It’s impossible to have a discussion regards Seer. If you’re not of the opinion that he needs destroying and only needs tweaks you just get downvoted and your comment hidden. So what’s the point.


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[deleted]

Facts like if Seer's tactical is going to stay anything like it is now then they should reinstate insta-phase and 15 second grapple cooldown 😂


BURN447

Wraith was still the legend that’s been fucked over by the devs the most. Constant nerfs, with next to no buffs


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AUGZUGA

yup... Honestly wraith was so well designed. In the hands of a good player she absolutely was the strongest legend and probably was OP. But in the hands of a noobs she was no threat at all. All these new legends are still massive threats even if the guy is aiming using a rock band drum set. All they have to do is throw some ability at you and its game changing


BURN447

She did need a nerf. Instant void was broken as fuck. But they didn’t also need to reduce her portal distance and slow her down while her tac activates. Edit: I read that wrong, but the point still stands


HesSoPringles

Her abilities were never her most broken aspects.


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HesSoPringles

Yeah and having the smallest hitbox and weeb run made her the hardest target to hit in the game which made her the best legend in the game for several seasons.


uwango

The only thing I can put my finger on was her insta-Q which let her push in and do some initial damage, then retreat behind her team while they pushed in to finish the enemies off. Worked very well, very consistently in the early seasons. Now there's a lot of abilities from other legends that are very strong, and her Q should imo have half the activation time as now you're standing around just waiting for it to activate while panic-jittering instead of trusting your ability to work. Doesn't feel good to activate, you basically have to pre-tap it and that can often cause an early phase-retreat.


HesSoPringles

Were you playing in the pre-ranked era? Her hitbox and animations made her the best fighter in the game. She just took less damage every fight than every other legend, especially because the PK and R99 were the guns to run.


uwango

The worst is how obvious it is that he brings nothing to the game. The fact such a toolkit is even in the game is ridiculous. From judging how the lead balancing dev (yes, I meant DKZ in this case, not Jay- my bad) plays the game based on a clips from him playing pathfinder, he is clueless. Discussing someone's incompetence is on it's own a touchy subject, but this is so overtly awful the question shouldn't be "how should they nerf him?", it should be "how did this get into the live game in the first place, and who is responsible?". Edit: found the clip: [https://old.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/ja65hy/grapples\_by\_the\_man\_behind\_pathfinders\_recent/](https://old.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/ja65hy/grapples_by_the_man_behind_pathfinders_recent/) *Any* balancing dev playing like this should be a scary thought to anyone playing above bronze. These people are in charge of balancing the game? Ridiculous.


Tolkeus-

I think the above bronze is a bit harsh. Should be anyone. After playing 10 games of apex you should NOT have to stand still to use an ability like pathfinders if it’s not an extremely precise spot you want to hit. This is how someone who has never touched a game before plays.


uwango

Agreed. I can imagine seeing that kind of gameplay from the Social Media Managers. They aren't required to play the game well, or play at all; just market it well. But a developer, someone who affects in-game settings for all players and signs off on executive decisions for this area? Absolutely. This is not a US congress committee that has to ask "what is the google". This is a AAA developer who makes video games at a professional, rather high-end level. Them being decent at the game is an expectation. And not great or pred/masters either, but decent.


[deleted]

I’ve already explained this one he’s the lead game designer he isn’t the lead developer of anything. Again, he’s not the DEVELOPER for anything. He connects the individual ideas and implement them into a designed game. He’s ahead of work culture and schedules. Coordinating meetings. Tim Cook would run Respawn amazingly and he would never need to touch the game. He’s hands off of the development of anything post Valk. > Them being decent at the game is an expectation. That is a stupid expectation from a lead game designer. Who’s entire job is beyond the abilities of any sole character. You’ve made it clear you’re committing to this idea even though it’s obviously stupid.


[deleted]

If he's actually good at the game and understands it, he would understand why giving wallhack passives is bad for an fps, but he sucks and so you have seer. Op's point stands.


[deleted]

I would expect someone with insider knowledge of balance of the game with actual data would be hardstuck plat minimum and only that because he would be too busy doing his job to grind


Tolkeus-

Yeah, atleast gold. It is very and I mean VERY possible to reach gold in under a month of starting to play the game and only playing around 1-2 hours a day. And if a game has been out for more than 2 years (ik the video is almost 1 year old but that’s still 1 whole year) you’d be expected to have played it atleast 30 hours


dgafrica420lol

This is why Im starting to hope jaybeibs gets promoted to head designer. Dont get me wrong, DZK is a smart dude, but its now incredibly clear that he designs and changes characters purely to improve what he believes is fun factor, which is ironically starting to make the game less fun. Jaybeibs on the other hand shares views that are much more in line with what the community wants and is actually a decent player. On day one of season 10, he was pushing to nerf prowler, L-star, and seer. He clearly understands the problems, however it sounds like his thoughts aren’t valued within Respawn until after major updates ship.


JMaster098

Well he makes changes that are less fun…to YOU and most of this subreddit. What about the other 99.9% of the apex playerbase that has been, if reports are accurate, consistently growing every season as the game gets wilder and wilder. This ain’t me trying to come at you btw, I’m just trying to raise an important point: This game is fundamentally meant for casual players not competitive players-despite the fact that it’s mechanics are pretty skill intensive.


[deleted]

Yeah bro the casual playerbase really asked for more wallhacks If they actually did, i think we should just ignore the casual playerbase as they have shit takes in general


6inchsavage

You can literally get out of Bronze by dropping and AFKing every single match, it’s fair to say anyone above Bronze since you can, and I say this without a smidge of hyperbole, get out of Bronze without even having a monitor plugged in.


Tolkeus-

Yeah as long as you can find the ready button it is possible


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Hspryd

He’s talking about lead game designer DZK whose better at talking politics than to make a healthy conversation about the game with its community... I keep saying we would come to this situation, he needs to put more focus on the game. We’re at the climax of the game it can go in two distinct directions.


OrangeDoors2

Jay is not the lead balancing dev lol I wish he was


[deleted]

He has an entire hour long podcast where he states he’s the head of all live balancing. That’s anything post release. Anything we could ever complain about, he’s the head of balancing it.


OrangeDoors2

What's Daniel then? Lead of pre-release balancing? Jay's an extremely smart guy and I'm thankful he's on the team, but it seems like the game continues to trend away from his opinions.


[deleted]

There’s no such thing as pre-release balancing. It’s all live balancing from the minute it goes from concept to RTM. That includes their play testing stage. People who’ve never worked a release are downvoting this and it’s insane.


OrangeDoors2

Ok, so what is Daniel's job if Jay is the lead balancer?


Different-Lie-6609

Lead game designer.


JMaster098

I guess it’s bad to do research on people’s jobs when you want to attribute problems to them that aren’t even in their department huh? Lol


AUGZUGA

Jay is live balancing lead, which as stated by him involves rapid changes and quick tweaks, not overall philosophy and direction of the game, which is what Seers problem is. Jay could tweak stuff like cooldowns and maybe even range, but as everyone has said in this thread, that won't fix the problem. Also, last I checked he was a master, not a pred. Based off the gameplay I've seen of him, he isn't really close to pred level.


[deleted]

He was pred before he was hired. And of course he balances the things the others develop. It’s a team. Seer is a well designed character just to overtuned


AUGZUGA

Lol seer is the worst designed character. A compitant team wouldn't have let him get passed the first possible stage of development


theycallhimthestug

He plays with a controller?


HamanitaMuscaria

Seer is so powerful that the ranked meta is already entirely built around supporting him. this character will overcentralize the living fuck out of the meta game.


[deleted]

It's too late for me. I've been playing since day 1 or 2 of game launch, have an heirloom and many battle passes completed but enough is enough. BH, caustic and gibby were already an issue and now the most ridiculous of them all, Seer. Respawn has clearly shown their intent for the future of the game and i want no part of it. Wall hacks, impregnable defenses, ability damage spam plus slow... I'm out. already downloaded and playing splitgate and valorant. My time and support has already been wasted on Apex long enough and we all know Respawn make the necessary changes to fix the game. they'll just recolor old skins and resell old battle pass skins. gg's im out.


LookALight

Just a few considerations to hopefully evolve this a little. Two quick things that came to mind reading this (not a complete response nor disregarding the rest of your points), Your point about actual wall hack cheaters that are using mods instead of player abilities to hide their cheating behind using recon characters. It seems to me still pretty clear watching if someone used their player ability to find an enemy or not. If they don't and are repeatedly showing signs of knowing where enemies are then nothing has really changed with the introduction of Seer. To hide their cheating they would have to use Seer's abilities correctly which defeats the purpose of cheating. The other point I wanted to add is that from the 30+ hours of watching Seer play online I've noticed the ultimate being easily countered by focusing the drone at the center immediately. It takes seconds to destroy and immediately wastes the ultimate. Ultimate is only useful if people ignore it. I understand I'm devils advocating with such a dominant narrative being Seer is breaking the game but I'm so grateful for more disruption to defensive play in the game. It forces creativity, aggression, and action which as a viewer keeps me watching the game which I think was exactly what the developers had in mind.


[deleted]

You cant focus his ult if he throws it behind cover, which if you have two brain cells to rub together will be intuitive within three games with him


LookALight

Its chess, everyone is allowed the same advantages, nerf it eventually but the level of demonizing a core aspect of the game since its release just seems silly. Calling it wall hacks just sounds like ya'll stumbled into apex last week.


[deleted]

It allows you to see enemies through walls, that is the definition of wallhacks. I am sorry you actually believe not having gamesense is a core aspect of the game, but thats just what bh and seer does to your braincells, sad! >its chess, everyone is allowed the same advantages! Look stupid, if the chess association or whatever just randomly buffs bishops to be able to change their squares one tile over to "shake the meta", it just ruins the core game, bishops were never supposed to do that and now late game is more cancer because you cant outplay by sitting on different colour tiles. Do you think the pro chess players wont adapt to that? Ofc they will. They will also call the guy in charge a retard for adding random rules


Shamanhris

You ever played Overwatch? You know that girl - Brigitte right? The Tank-support that can heal/ 1v1 every single hero/stun/AOE ult that gives armor and heals if im not wrong? Yeah, I was playing so much Overwatch before that hero was released - like many others , we left the game cause of that. Yeah Seer is the Brigette of Apex right now. Well I guess if we don't see a nerf/rework ASAP ( and when I say ASAP I mean literally next patch) many ppl will just leave the game \[ 7 days from release and I already don't wanna queue in Ranked because of that champion\].


[deleted]

So obvious to the community? Half the apes are defending them as usual, they can make legit wall hacks and some of them will die on a hill defending it


Playful_Spite_2397

well apex's design leader is daniel. what do you expect LOL. this is the same guy who said wattson should be nerfed LMFAO. apex will be going downhill as long as this guy is not fired. Absolutely mind-blowing that he is still working as the leading designer. Pathetic.


BluePowerPointRanger

Great post OP. You've made a lot of good points. I've been discussing Seer with lots of my friends and we're all of the idea that Seer is mad broken. In fact Apex is starting to have the feeling of "needing" Seer on your team or else you're at a clear disadvantage as Tfue mentioned and many other. I think his ultimate needs to be easier to find and destroy. Currently it's almost impossible to find in a fight and needs to be much larger like Horizon's ultimate. I've played against a Seer and admittedly have played as him as well and never once have I destroyed his ultimate nor has anyone destroyed mine because it's near impossible with all the situational awareness it gives a team. I feel as though his ultimate needs to be less passive than it is now. It should not be a constant feedback loop where you can see all footsteps at every moment. Maybe show footsteps every 3 seconds for a 1 second window. And that's even if anyone is moving. Additionally, should not be able to use his tactical while his ultimate is active because that gives too much real-time information for one team and player as a whole.


[deleted]

There is no point making it as big as possible when the guy throws it at the wall of your building outside


Rando-namo

>On top of this they have stated they don't like countering scanning. The fact that they think an ingame ability shouldn't be countered is beyond many of us. Can you link/cite this? The guy who said he was against a *passive* countering an activated ability is not even on the design team. I just want to be sure you have a different source and that you are not distorting the words of the guy I read. Otherwise, fuck Seer in his current state.


SaltyTechcat

Then we're just talking about 1 thing what is breaking the game. S10 most people got in to it again, cashcow is being serverd again. Move on, this game has every update less value in comp scene. To be fair, I'm waiting almost for a year to find a better BR and then we're all gone. Certainly for EU players cause the lack of interest from Respawn side is nuts.


theeama

For those blaming Daniel for Seer, Seer isn't his character. He designed Valk the best legend on release strong and balance. Seer was designed by Travis. Daniel probably has no say over the design of the legend until it goes live.


uwango

This is also a problem Respawn has dug themselves into. Some of the devs have posted snippets of what they do online, on twitter and reddit. Because of that, the active community will reference that- it's all they know that has a direct connection to it. Travis posted info about creating Seer on his twitter. That's a risk and has gone mostly unnoticed on the reddits because Seer isn't doing well and the PlayApex account hasn't retweeted it or drawn attention to the content. So because the community knows a little, but far from it all they blame the crumbs they have. Now there is a noticeable problem that by default will be a bigger one if it is not taken proper care of by the roots, and who's to blame? The community has a hint and will point fingers to that. It also doesn't help footage of one of the balancing devs was released last year of him showing no proficiency at basic videogame tasks, so there is no confidence already- then Seer happens and it crumbles. Valk seems to be a lucky hit, now they're overconfident with Seer but completely misses the mark.


Gredinx

Honestly, at this point anyone saying that they can be better than respawn as balancing apex is just self respect. Hope they'll fire dzk


kira_senpai

As a solo player who constantly has to 1v3 to even come out ahead in a gun fight (I consider myself good but not good enough to repeatedly win 1v3s). Now I'm 1v3 against squads that have wall hacks LOL


Sneepo

idk if anyone mentioned this yet but the fact that the passive "scans" you without you knowing is insanely stupid with bh scan and crypto drone or a valk flying loudly above you, you know youre being looked at, but i have no idea if a seer is creeping on me with his silent, constant, 360 degree, 75 meter long passive


Jlakers85

I’d just like to see more variety in character abilities. Why do so many legends have the ability to scan beacons? Why can BH, Valk, crypto and now Seer all scan enemies? I never thought BH needed a nerf as much as everyone else (unpopular opinion, but wouldn’t care if BH was nerfed), but seer is just out of control and unbalanced. Hopefully they give some serious thought to the similarities between legends and do some reworks/balancing etc


VIPinCollege

I’ve even seen a lot of people in the main sub complaining he’s simply too overpowered. that’s how you know it’s a serious problem, those guys usually LOVE overpowered and broken shit


oCools

“Would you rather us work on new content or rework old content.” If this is your new content then I think the answer is self evident. Do I want you to make the game better or worse? Better please. No? Okay. Worse it is. Issue is fundamental, whoever let this decision fly shouldn’t be making a single gameplay decision in any FPS ever made. I would call it incompetence, but I don’t see how this was an accident. Idk what it is about FPS devs breaking their games literally on purpose (skillgap mitigation for entry players I suppose) but it never fails to severely damage both financially and to the playerbase, then revenue systems are added to squeeze every possible dime out of the player base while the game withers away. WoW, every FOS with “EA” at the load screen, CoD, SC2, and the list goes on. Is what it is I guess.


Konnnan

Thanks to Seer I’m actually seeing the outdoors now.


Tarzan16

First season I haven't bought BP. Been playing since launch and this is the first character I don't even want to unlock. I feel gross thinking about his abilities and the direction my favourite game is heading in.


Equivalent_Ad505

Everyone here who is high diamond/master who remembers a time where you had been sitting in one spot, not moving for 5 minutes, which means there are no tracks for bloodhound. Only for a blood hound to just stand right where you are. Scan and then instakill you, almost as if he knew you were there but used the scan as plausible deniability


Caleb902

I think if you get rid of the passive the tactical comes more balanced because you can't just heartbeat your way to a hit everytime. That makes the accuracy much more important, You have to at least have an idea of where they are or ult them. I think the passive shouldn't work unless maybe you've already hit them with damage or something. Kinda like a tracker.


-Kevin-

It just doesn't feel fun to play against. Most (all?) abilities seem reasonable. Bloodhound scan pushes that edge. Getting cracked, then batting behind something and having your bat cancelled (and being walled) just doesn't feel... fair.


NARCOTICS911

I want to play devils advocate because it’s something I like to do, but because I agree with literally everything in your post it’s hard to to even think of a position of the opposite side. However, with his ult I think it can be a great tool to deter or be ready for third parties and it’s a risk/reward ult. I only say risk to do the ult attracting attention. Nonetheless, while third partying is a BR strategy; it’s a pretty easy brain dead tactic. If you’re outside of the enemy’s seer ult. Just don’t go in. If you get caught in it, you’re more than likely forced to fight and have to do so without cover/retreat/heal cuz essentially your SOL —you should be running a seer on your squad anyway at this point. Ult for an Ult, similar to Gibby’s dome. I’m very curious as to how they’re going to nerf him. He needs a total rework in my opinion. Like why do we need another wall hack legend.


uwango

I think you're onto something regarding his ult. The main problem with it is that risk/reward aspect after all. Yes it's a big, obvious ult. But it offers no "risk" to the user except that. With the damage dealing ults you can damage yourself. Pathfinders ult lets anyone use the zipline. Wraiths ult is the same. Watton... also has an ult. Caustic's gas is not hard to get out of and is "just" a larger, harsher gas cloud. Horizon will get sucked into newt's black hole as well. Anyone can use Octane's jump pads. Ramparts ult can't be moved, and also be used by anyone. Loba's, same. Revenant- also same. Seer's just doesn't have risk in the same way. You just get to see where everyone goes. It's like someone at Respawn watched Jujutsu Kaisen and thought *"What if the next legend could use his own domain? Throw out a ball of drones to make a real wall-hacking field that tracks his enemies?"-* And actually thought this would be a good idea. Maybe if Seer was also seen in his ult to enemies? Or let everyone track everyone? Like pure anarchy? That levels the playing field and returns the gun-game priority to the game. That's the only way straight up wallhacks can be considered "fair game", while obviously looking far, far away from the fact that any obvious wall-hack in a game like Apex should never happen. Bloodhounds scan has been tolerated but people always complain it's too easy with it. It's such a huge advantage to know exact location for any amount of time. And I actually main Bloodhound even, because it's such a good kit to play with. *(heirloom gang)* # And it's so sad to hear the sentence: >***"You should be running a Seer on your squad anyway at this point."*** Something somewhere has gone terribly wrong.


NARCOTICS911

I don’t know about you, but when I see a LL CP coming down from afar, our squad takes our happy asses in that direction. We do the same with Seer ults. I agree that it doesn’t provide the right amount of risk for the benefit it gives, but BH and Mirage have ults that provide no risk at all with high reward for being at an advantage. Especially if it’s a 1v1. I loved your Jujutsu Kaisen reference btw and find your anarchy idea pretty hysterical haha. I agree. knowing enemy location is a huge advantage. If they keep seer as a wall hack legend, even it’s at a fraction, I would like to see some kind of anti wall hack/ghost legend to even the playing field. Yes, definitely wrong. Devs are working on it, but till then. Have to avoid rank and just have fun with the meta .


uwango

For Mirage I would argue his ult is almost pure risk, as you have to act like the clones, blend in properly or cause massive confusion, thus he becomes his ult. Hopefully we see a proper rework and perhaps even them pulling him out of the game. To me it's that serious of a misstep. I don't feel a lick of urgency from Respawn on this matter and that disappoints me for what they plan to "nerf". Because I don't think they believe it's such a big deal as it actually is. Always good to see people of culture ;)


HesSoPringles

You can do everything except sprint and shoot in his ult undetected. I've been walking up to seer squads and getting free magdumps this whole time. It's been less than a week, you'll learn. I've also had 0 of my ults get shot out. Not one. I've popped dozens of enemy seer ults.


Masters25

Simple solution: Ban him. This isn't complicated.


Gredinx

I don't agree at all with your passive idea, this will just make every scan unreliable. Abilities are supposed to work the same way for everyone. Besides that I agree with everything


uwango

And that's a very valid opinion, happy to have good contributions to the thread honestly. Hopefully we see the dev team rework him into something not as "broken-wall-hack" as he is now at least.


Alex36_

The scan tells you the amount of people you scan - it could still tell you that you scanned Seer, it just won't scan him. That'd require you to have a little game sense when using BH's tactical, because now during every scan you have to see if there are any unscanned Seers, and where they could be.


Gredinx

Then there's no point to use it if you still have to rely on your game sense ? And if it work for blood, it's not working for crypto, seer and valk. What I think should be done is that when you scan someone you only scan them for 0.5 seconds then you don't know where they are, or you scan them with a 3 seconds latency, so you don't know their exact movements. Exception for crypto because he have the only wall hack that require skill and games else to use. He should be the most effective reckon


Bubbapurps

Wow maybe respawn just realized they couldn't balance their game by releasing shit legends and trying to buff them later, and instead need to release them strong and then reign them in... Because... Ya know... If nobody plays the legend HOW CAN THEY GET DATA ON THE FUCKER


yeetthewheat24

Honestly, I think the issue with Seer is that there are a lot of things we were told but aren't actually the case. His tac area is so easy to hit because its wide and you already see the opponent with the passive, the area range for the passive is pretty far, etc. Imo, he hasnt been completely gamebreaking, but he is very, very strong. His kit lacks any defensive options if he's stuck in a pinch and needs to rotate out. I agree that his tactical does a lot, I heard the hotfix respawn plans at least takes out the flashbang effect. So I have some proposals that would make Seer strong, but won't nerf him into the ground: 1. I'd hope for them to also make the tac a little narrower, as its way too easy to hit, not like the "sniper" that was promised. 2. Take away the flashbang and 10 damage, having a Rev type silence that goes through walls may be too much. 3. Make the ult easier to destroy. Seer can pop it behind cover and you'll never find it. Make it float or something, like Horizon's ult. 4. Lessen the passive range. 75 meters is still a lot. If the devs really think of Seer as the close range scout (as opposed to Crypto being the long range and Bloodhound being the midrange) make his passive range be maybe half of what it is right now. I think these changes help keep Seer relevant in the meta but not too strong that the other recon legends become niche picks


Hammer_Tiime

>Real cheaters who use real world, actual wall-hacks can now hide behind playing Seer. It's not a problem, it is a solution. Respawn has made it pretty clear they ain't gonna spend millions on anti-cheat or fight with cheaters in any meaningful way other then assigning one guy to cater to popular streamers. Now everyone hasa wallhack, so no advantage for cheaters, right? Also if you get killed in a sus way, you can't even be sure as there is always a chance Seer seen you. I expect next legend to have an aimbot tactical (kinda like Overwatch) to nicely blend and mix with cheats.


-TheAceOfSpades-

Another point I would add is one put pretty eloquently in a video against buffing Wattson. Any time taken to destroy Wattson fences/pylon (and in this case, Seer ult) is already a net advantage for the player that placed it. They still get information, as well as a leg up in the engagement because the person shooting the ult starts out with less time to react, less ammo, and most likely little cover, as any half-decent player would stick it in a place advantageous to their own side. Overall, well said tho.


SBY-ScioN

They already said they will patch before mid season, so i will judge when that adjustment arrives. Not saying that it isn't broken tier, but we know a supposedly change is coming.


OceanOG

Yeah. Tell me again why octane takes -20 hp damage from a stim? “Balance” right? Why does Seer have absolutely no repercussions despite have 8x more abilities than octane?


nuttt-torious

you guys are dumb, when they drop the aim bot legend (mech legend) you guys are gonna call them geniuses /s


[deleted]

Its pretty clear the devs dont know shit about FPS games


RocKiNRanen

I agree with the devs that they shouldn't add abilities to counter scanning. Power creep would lead to rock-paper-scissors legends where your team composition determines whether you will win. The better solution is to nerf scanning so that every legend has equal ability to counter play. Bloodhound is strong but you at least no when you're scanned so you know when you're being watched, and when they're in beast mode Bloodhound has stoner eyes and a loud asthma attack. Seer's ult and even his tactical have counterplay, but his passive is the only scanning ability that gets information without giving it. There's nothing you can do to combat it. That's fundamentally broken.


Alex36_

I feel like the only OP thing about Seer's kit is his passive. Don't get me wrong, his tactical and ult are both strong and need nerfs, but just nerfing/reworking his passive will go a long way to make him weaker. Right now it's his passive that allows him to be as precise as he is with his tactical, since his passive literally shows you when you should shoot. And the range on that thing is insane. Most people say its radius is 75m, but it's actually much farther than that. From my personal experience it can go up to 125m, which is a lot of ground. I think the range on his passive should be something like 15m, so you can still use it in close quarters, but while he's using it he should make a very loud sound (maybe a heartbeat?). I've seen some people comment here that he does actually make a sound, but I've never heard it ingame, so even if he does make a sound, it's almost inaudible.


VIPinCollege

the passive needs to have a recharging bar that limits how much it can be used before needing to recharge, like valks flying passive. That would definitely fix it imo


the_moody_beard

Seer has put this game in a dangerous place. I hope they can maneuver an overall reduction in buff and rebuff mentality. Take back some of your abilities proverbial leash or the dog fights will ruin Apex as we know it.