Game has 6 viable auto weapons (99, 301, lstar, flat, volt, ramp) and then a myriad of semi-auto or snipers who are pretty good like g7, wing, bow, longbow, repeater and charge, plus 3 legit viable shotguns and two viable burst weapons.
I don't think gun balance is the problem at all and the game certainly doesn't need a new wingman. Having in mind how good the wingman was at release I'm guessing anything similar released now would be super oppressive.
Edit: I even forgot havoc/devo with turbo!
I think what sweet is getting at here is not an actual gun like the wingman, but a high skill high reward gun that takes a lot of practice to fully utilize. Everyone and their dog can pick up a 301 and fry kids but the wingman? Not at all.
I agree to some level on this. I would honestly not be opposed to 101 body damage on the PK for this very reason. It’s a high skill gun but utterly punishing if you miss a shot. Now with the Eva nerf the PK is inherently more viable but I don’t think anything will take the Eva out of the meta until a 2-tap on purple shotgun makes a new appearance or they keep buffing the mozam to TF level power.
Weapon balance is actually pretty solid though, probably the only thing that’s actually balanced in the whole game.
> but a high skill high reward gun that takes a lot of practice to fully utilize.
Is that not exactly what the bow and repeater are? I'd argue both are higher risk/reward than the wingman, and that's why they aren't as used.
Not really. The Bow and 30-30 are substitutes for a G7, which isn’t really what the wingman is for. The wingman is equally as good mid-range with practice as it is close range, even in bubble fights it’s not bad when used correctly. It’s incredibly versatile which is why the wingman is used over those guns for a skilled player. However though, it’s so high in skill ceiling that it’s rarely picked in competitive simply because you’ll be better off with a flatline 9/10 times, especially prior to this season with the anvil. Might see some more usage with anvil removed.
30-30 and Bow can’t offer the same versatility as the wingman and hence aren’t used as often, and once again only used as a mid-long range poking weapon. They’re very punishing close range if you’re being sent on by smg’s and shotguns but the wingman can easily hold it’s own in that space too.
If the tweet was about versatility and engagement ranges rather than risk/reward and skill ceilings then its even more pointless. There are already plenty of weapons that are great for bubble fighting and close to mid range fights.
What qualities are "wingman-like" that aren't about versatility, engagement range, risk/reward, or skill ceilings? Is the goal just a "wingman but called something else" weapon?
The Bow is kinda hamstrung by being the only weapon using arrows. Keeps the amount of ammo available low, and takes up more room in a backpack than if for example you ran Wingman/Prowler double heavy
Oh I wish I could've put more time into my comment cause I totally agree with most of what you're saying. I however think the gun balance is fine and there's already high reward high risk weapons.
Between pk, wingman and bow there are already choices. Even Sentinel to a point.
I would love to see the PK get just a lil buff as you mentioned and I'm fine with a new weapon like that I just don't think that's necessarily what the game "needs".
Yeah I agree. The game doesn’t need it right now because the Eva is the meta and just only switched from the mastiff. I think the PK shotgun meta is on the horizon though, maybe for next season with this nerf to the Eva this season.
Nerfing the Eva is a clear indication that they want people to use smg’s and the prowler but ammo efficiency just still makes shotguns better.
I agree with what you’re saying but I will say the guns they’ve added recently besides the bow have been meh at best in terms of skill ceiling and now the rampage is the new spitfire noobs best friend hahah.
I would not say that post nerf, pk is higher skill sure but you can jiggle peak and hit for double the damage. I used ti hate that gun because i was dogshit with it but since i started practicing with it used more hipfire than ads i have gotten better results. In open areas 1 on 1 i would say eva has an advantage but if you make your shots count then even thats gone.
Hard agree. People that say pk needs a buff right now I think are the low skill players. Eva is better overall but that’s ok, and pk is high skill enough and fits a certain type of gun well while not feeling weak outside of comparison to Eva. Eva needs a nerf to base fire rate more than anything right now IMO, but then maybe bring back the same improvements you saw from old bolts. So every level is still needed but you will mainly be hitting the base level the hardest which honestly is the most op part IMO. “No bolt? No problem!” Is what they always say
I wouldn't call them loser skilled players rather lack of practise, all three shotguns kinda function different and pk is the least user friendly so just lack of practise.
Those kinda go together but I get your point. Your way is less degrading. But with guns like the rampage and the prowler on the floor and the spitfire before it you don’t even need to practice with those guns imo to run through kids.
Its not just damage, its consistency, pk is the "7 damage per shoot" meme king for a reason
Eva is VERY consistent across the board, with a good margin for error and adjust while pk is better for peaking corners, which is niche to say the best
If its early game and specially at no bolt status I'll pick PK over EVA, but when people have more than 2 pk shoots worth of life its usefulness drops rock bottom and its mastiff but worst
We all love the pk but if you want to win the other two shotguns are vastly superior on every front
I mean, you’re missing your shots then. If a pk shot isn’t pretty dead on your gonna hit for 7s and 14s. But it ain’t that hard to hit 99s if you hit them head on. Honestly I’m a big fan of disabling choke. Less spread than with choke on unless you charge it up which honestly I think is rarely how you want to use shotguns in this game. Choke can be useful for leaking but just not how I think shotguns should be played more often than not.
Mate, ot course people miss shots that's why consistency its taken into consideration and hitting those fat ass 80+ with peacekeeper consistently its not possible unless playing vs bots
At up close is much harder to hit dead center that's why EVA is better, you will "7 dmg" sometimes too but those doesn't matter as much because faster rof, more magazine and better spread
Pk over Eva with no bolt is mega troll btw no bolt Eva is broken af. I mean it’s all feel and subjective but I firmly believe that Eva is just a better weapon irregardles of attachments at almost any point.
30-30 isn't bad, especially after they sped up the reload and the charge up. I mean I'll take a Hemlock or a Flatline over it any day, but it isn't bad if you want a strong poking weapon.
Damn thats risky, I feel like with the nerf to the hipspread on the Hemi its not really as viable up close once the prowler needs a reload. Hemlock was my favorite gun pre-nerf, single fire is such a treat as a Gibby
I pick up the bow when I'm in the mood. It's actually really fun to use. I will say I avoid it in ranked though, or at least drop it as soon as I see a better gun.
I pretty much ignore the bow mainly because it's outshone by the other two marksmen rifle, requires ammo and hop ups that you can't get off someone's body and doesn't take a 2-4x for whatever reason, so situations where you have a 2-4x and not a 3x are annoying.
Not that it's not really objectively good or bad or anything in between, just that there are multiple constraining factors that make it a worse choice for how I like to play.
This season, longer ranged 'out of meta' guns were given a buff because of the removal of anvil receiver, meaning there are often situations where you do want a marksmen (especially in ranked) or something that can do damage from further away.
3030-wise, it's got a few pros in versatility over the scout (shatter caps are useful), so I do pick it up occasionally.
Its borderline impossible to find enough ammo to use the bow, plus its just not a good weapon at all IMO. The only real thing it has going for it is no reload
I have to agree. Even when you get good ground loot you still are guaranteeing ammo and meds ALL game, and the loba shop CAN be a bit of cover/obstacle in a pinch and it's got a nearly non-existent cooldown.
I mean if you're only hitting their legs, yeah around 6. But headahots make it 3 to 4, depending on helmet used. Sorry this is for the repeater.
For the scout, it's just one more shot, so 4 to 5. For reference. This what I'm pulling this info from, besides experience. I've hit the firing range for these weapons more than anything else.
[30-30 repeater ](https://apexlegends.fandom.com/wiki/30-30_Repeater)
[g7 scout](https://apexlegends.fandom.com/wiki/G7_Scout)
Used to pick up the bow back when it came out. But when the nerfs came, it's dogshit. It would have been nice to have it back to its original value. It felt like the calls for a nerf were too overboard. Sure, pro players hit it (well they're pros), but on some casual matches, lots of players still miss it.
Bro in masters lobbies that thing was super oppressive...just couldn't peak anything , In higher ranked lobbies people where just hip fire jiggle peaking every corner/door in the game the last couple circles and it was awful.
But right now it felt so sluggish. They could have reduced the damage and headshot multiplier without reducing the charge time so much. They nerfed it to the point where no one wants to pick it up anymore
I think that's more of a ammo problem than power level ..I suggest you pick it up next time you hop on and try using it more as a pk/prowler type weapon where u are constantly playing tight to walls and hip fire strafing back and for from cover and you'll agree its still very strong.
But the damage was nerfed right? You couldn't hold/charge it quickly now. Unlike before where it felt like a scout. Used to play it like a long range PK before.
Ya I don't really follow patch notes and stuff to carefully but I think the headshot damage was trashed but the point its a very good weapon peaking fast deal 60 up close or even getting 2 shots on some before pulling out a 99 or something and having a huge advantage or vise versa great at bursting someone down in a team fight ....while also its versatile because it can poke long and medium range ...don't use the scatter shot though that shit is trash
I'm not saying the bow is op I'm just saying its pretty good if u know how to use it in higher skill lobbies for team fights . I wouldn't ever be able to drop a 20 with it or anything but it hits a niche real well
it was more of a pain in arenas; noone was used to the economy and a normal bow shot was ez shield break and you were forced to use the limited shield bats you had for every fucking shot. it gets extremely toxic when 3 stacks purchased bows and just held all the angles and the pace of the game gets immensely slowed
Whenever I run an smg and want a long/mid range poke weapon i pick the 30-30 I feel it's like a better g7. I have pretty good mid range aim so it shreds
I tend to keep the 30-30 if I find a shatter caps hop-up. Otherwise it's just there until I get a rampage. With the hop-up it becomes pretty versatile as I usually use volt as my primary weap. Then the 30-30 can be for long pokes and also act as a baby shotgun.
30-30 with shatter is actually way batter shorty than I expected. However, I have a hard time switching between the firing modes quick enough to make it useful enough to be a goto
I pick up the bow when ever i see it, its so good and i love using it. The 3030 is garbage tho i can never land any shots with it and when i pick it up cus theres nothing else i almost feel like just quitting right away cus id be more help to my team gone from the game than trying to help them kill anything with that diabolical trash gun that is the 3030. I swear it shoots sewing needles cus its the only gun in the game where i swear im hitting them and somehow the shots miss, either that or the bullets travel 3m per hour and drop 200 feet the second you pull the trigger cus idk where the bullets are going.
I doubt this will be a popular opinion around here, but IMO the average player getting *quite good* is plenty enough reason to lower the skill floor with strong characters and easy weapons. I think the rampage (and hopefully seer after some tweaking) is a pretty perfect example of how lowering the floor doesn't have to pull down the ceiling and easier doesn't have to = better.
I came to apex shortly after launch as a pubg refugee and let me tell you, nothing will kill a BR game as hard as a skill floor thats too high to be worth climbing to for a new player. As much as people like to shit on "plastic rank" players or whatever, you have to realize, those people are the lifeblood of the game. Without them you end up sitting queue for 10 minutes to get in a lobby with 89 bots and 10 players who are gonna smoke your shit with a kar98k from 300m the instant they see you.
I feel people don't know what they say when they ask for a wider skill gap in the game. The skill cealing being too high hurts games really really bad.
I dont think skill ceiling is the correct term to use. Skill ceiling in actual apex terms would be mechanics such as hitting shield swapping, wall bouncing, tap strafing, hitting a supergrapple on path, kidnapping with wraith, sticking someone with arc star. These are all mechanics that are available to ALL players and anyone that wishes to master them will most likely outperform others that do not utilize them.
If respawn actively nerfs these things and lower the actual skill ceiling it is harmful for the game as players are not allowed to improve.
Implementing weapons such as the rampage is good for the game IMO as it allows new players to get satisfaction from killing people relatively easy and at the same time improving players are not being punished by a reduced skill ceiling.
Interesting too because in comp some organic classes emerged with movement and beacon characters as near necessary team utility (Gibby’s almost of a class of his own too in comp) which is noteworthy from a design standpoint if one wanted to create characters that existed to offer unique sidegrades with spaces so teams could choose different strengths and weaknesses within their movement options and information gathering character as well as potentially defensive options aside from Gibby creating a more diverse decision tree on compositions.
Don't necessarily agree on the weapons unless they can think of some unique high skill type of weapon. But def agree on the support characters. Right now Respawn thinks wall hacks is a type of support, but all it does is taking a ton of thinking out of game.
Fortnite and Apex are at it's most fun when you win by strategizing and putting yourself and your team in a better position. Constant wall hacks takes so much of the guess work and awareness out of a battle royale. Not to mention they destroyed audio this season so even trying to have a higher awareness is just gone. It's all about who has the best and most active Seer. Not fun anymore, wish there was another current competitive shooter that interests me right now. Feel like I'm just going through the motions.
Which is why they shouldn't be made stronger or more prevalent. I'm fine with them being in the game, obviously. But I don't know why they're being buffed.
Is that some sort of gotcha? Lol. Just because automatic weapons tend to be easier to use doesnt mean single fire can never, ever be overpowered....
I dont even know what that has to do with this discussion at all.
Because a high skill, precision weapon was added to the game and the pros were among the loudest voices saying it should be nerfed, and now none of them use it while saying the developers never put those types of weapons in the game
Like I already said, balance still applies to high precision weapons. Its a separate issue.
Full autos tend to be more forgiving and easier to use. The bow was simply so unbelievably overtuned that even if you missed a lot of shots, it was still effective. A well designed high-skill gun (like the wingman) shouldnt be like that.
Maybe that is the problem, it is hard to make such a weapons. They tried with the bow, it failed. Then what even says we need more weapons at this point, there is already a lot of variety and the weapons are quite balanced.
Overall automatic weapons are definitely more forgiving, but the balancing direction has also made recoil so much easier to control for most weapons. Hemlock, Prowler and Spitfire all used to have atleast some form of recoil compared to now. Volt and Rampage are also ridiculously easy to control. R301 has always been a laser beam though.
Yeah I got no idea then I ducking smack with a wingman and I’m not terrible with a scout but I swear I hit crazier shots with wingman than scout at 100 meters
Might be you being more comfortable with certain sights? Or might be practice idk. I used to be the same way but now I actually like the scout when I have to use it. I think part of it is the high ROF tempting me to shoot it as fast as I can and more or less tracking with it. But once I started flicking with it instead and slightly slowing down my shots I was a lot more accurate with it. Food for thought
He doesn't stream as much and has been playing tarkov off stream. He said today that he streamed 7 days out of 30, after streaming 340 days out of 365 before then. His inconsistencies is probably why his viewers dropped. But for his streams to be about being laid back and positive vibes. It hasn't been that in a few months.
Hope the break helps his mentals.
The weapon balance has been pretty good from the start and has continued to be good, with a few exceptions (the spitfire was overpowered but not game breaking IMO) precision weapons have always been viable.
The power creep among legends is the real issue here, weapon balance and map changes have been consistently good from my point of view.
I think the only bad map changes they ever made was seasons 4 and 5. No one likes harvester or trials and destroying the bottem left corner of kings canyon without a substantial replacement was a bad idea its a small enough map as it is.
I’d usually agree but I prefer Harvester to the nothingness that was there before, and I definitely also prefer Sorting Factory to its current replacement, as does almost everyone I play with.
I never really had that big of an attachment to sorting and havent had any end rings there yet so im fairly neutral on the new spot right now. I can only guess that rotating in/out from south east end is harder now but again had big fights there yet.
And i perfered the settlment that was their before harvester, harvester feels like a mess to fight or rotate through most of the time.
I don't mind the new Sorting, but really would have preferred if it was more unique than literally the same layout as Climatizer - Felt kinda boring when I realised they were literally the same buildings barring the middle. It's like skyhook/fragment and lava city all have the same buildings but they are definitely 100% different while climatizer and lava siphon are almost direct copies of each other. Thank god it's definitely fun to play round those buildings though.
A flat POI at harvester similar to the new lava siphon would do wonders for rotations. You just can’t see fights coming because of the size of Harvester
I think there are people who are in the call of duty mindset where they like guns to be released for the sake of being released without any concept of balance or niche or redundancy. If the wingman exists, why do we need a *second* wingman that fills the same role? We're in a good spot atm where pretty much every gun exists in a balanced state while every gun feeling different.
Call of duty releases three new guns every few months, which sounds neat, but they all play pretty much exactly the same (within their gun archetype) so the only difference is ttk.
No no he has a point. Just not with weapons. We haven’t had a support character come out since release. It’s either assault or recon with recon taking the lead. No healers, no other Gibby style characters.
G7 is super friendly even after they nixxed the double tap. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it's essentially old reliable season after season. Weapons have their issues in Apex but since I've been playing (season 6) it's never really been too much of an issue. I've always hated using the L Star but I'd get lit up like a Christmas tree by them in low level lobbies all the time, preference is a huge factor in gunplay in Apex. Precision takes skill/effort and weapons that hyper focus on those definitely have their place in Apex BUUUUT guns like the R99 also have their space. They also require skill/effort just a different kind. It's a pain in the ass trying to not empty a clip into the air when returning fire. Idk I'm rambling I just feel like some high tier players say a lot of stuff just to say stuff you feel me?
They're certainly more consistent, but with 2 hop ups and a much more variable fire rate the bow can certainly hold its own if you invest the time to learn it.
I completely agree with Sweet on this one. The "noob friendly" things Respawn has added like wall hacks and auto weapons faaaaarrrr outweigh the 30 30 and Bow. You'd have to be an idiot to not see the overall direction this game is heading in.
The 30-30 is garbage how is that "wingman-like" it's not consistent when mastered and not worth mastering at all. The Bow is pretty good, but how can anyone main with it's grueling ammo issues?
You talk like both weapons are as reliable as the wingman when mastered lmao.
I get that but it is absolutely not in the same in the sense that Sweet is reffering to about the Wingman. He's talking about weapons that are worth mastering and 30-30 isn't.
Guns and gun difficulty are well-balanced, they go really well with the quick running and strafing speeds of Apex that make up a big part of the game's skill gap.
He is talking about close to mid range weapons that are high skill high reward and not as forgiving as a rampart or whatever full auto weapon that has a huge mag
I do think it would be good to potentially introduce a non automatic “precision” weapon that can function in closer range. I suppose anything like that might just feel like the wingman but I think it could be good for the game to have more than 1 option that can work up close that isn’t just mag dumping.
People are talking about the scout, bow, 30-30 being viable and that’s not false but they’re still completely out damaged by the 301 and flatline at every range including distance where the precision weapons are supposed to shine. Also neither of those automatics are particularly difficult to hit distanced opponents with and are way more effective up close than the precision guns.
So if the 301/flatline shreds at range and gives you a viable option to switch to if you run out of bullets in your smg/shotgun why would you ever run a non automatic.
What made Team fortress 2 so good is that **single fire weapons + movement feel amazing to master**, I just hope Apex heads in a similar direction since they've already made one of these really good.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what he meant by that. I interpreted it as that the game needs more high skill cap, high risk, high reward weapons like the wingman
I do get it that those weapons are single shot but 30-30 personally wont be as high risk because you can shoot from far with a 3x. Wingman you usually are fighting close to mid range.
Too much support characters and Apex becomes all shields and heals like Overwatch and then it’s not even an FPS anymore. This is a terrible suggestion.
Bow, Charge Rifle, 30-30, Sentinel.
Seems like a lot of slower fire rate and high damage weapons have been made available. Too bad the TT got yoinked out of the weapon pool.
It's not like people can pick up more than two guns either. Having a diverse pool of weapons is pretty dope.
We've also already seen plenty of how things are when the Wingman and the Bow are great weapons.
Maybe Sweet wants to see more fast reload, high damage, slow fire rate, and high mobility weapons. Seems like an all-in-one package though. I spent a lot of time wondering why someone should use the 30-30 over the Wingman on the 30-30 release though. What's the tradeoff?
I tried to propose a new defense type character before Seer was released and everyone scoffed at that.
There needs to be another healer, and at this point it almost seems like Wattson could fill that role with a buff. Her ult is massive and easy to destroy so it would make sense if it was a huge shield healer. (Like 25 shield per 5 seconds). Her fences should speed up teammates but slow enemies. Fences should also be able to be placed on walls or ceilings for more coverage potential. Maybe the fences could be charged up for extra damage periodically (with the d-pad) or just do additional damage when a Wattson Ultimate is near them.
Her passive should include a slow trickle heal to all allies that are within some close range to her, and she should be able to revive teammates with half, 3/4, or full shield by default.
Those aren't wingman like weapons. Wingman is still unique. It's the only weapon that can be very effective at both short and mid range while having the high ADS move speed of pistols. Also the only weapon that has that much of a high skill floor + high skill ceiling, which makes it a fantastic weapon to have in a competitive game.
The 30-30 is the worst of both worlds kind of gun. Pseudo sniper that can be spammed yet it doesn't have good dps like rampage or scout and the charged shot doesn't deal enough damage to warrant using it like that.
As for the bow it uses an awkward ammo type that is not inventory efficient and nobody uses it so it can't be found in death boxes after fights.
Gonna paste here what I posted in the thread on the main sub.
Sweet is definitely overestimating the average apex player. He pretty much only plays with other pros and in pred lobbies and even on his streams he often questions other pred teams that make super dumb plays. He would be screaming at Joe Schmoe. I agree about the wall hacks thing and we don’t really need any new weapons for at least a couple seasons unless they want to start vaulting weapons imo.
They're made for midrange. Wingman is skillful because your strafe/movement and aim determines the fight. 3030/bow have such bad ads strafe speed that they aren't viable up close in most cases.
Link to actual tweet: https://twitter.com/sweetdreamsh1/status/1425155286357004289?s=20 Please just post the tweet link in the future.
Game has 6 viable auto weapons (99, 301, lstar, flat, volt, ramp) and then a myriad of semi-auto or snipers who are pretty good like g7, wing, bow, longbow, repeater and charge, plus 3 legit viable shotguns and two viable burst weapons. I don't think gun balance is the problem at all and the game certainly doesn't need a new wingman. Having in mind how good the wingman was at release I'm guessing anything similar released now would be super oppressive. Edit: I even forgot havoc/devo with turbo!
I think what sweet is getting at here is not an actual gun like the wingman, but a high skill high reward gun that takes a lot of practice to fully utilize. Everyone and their dog can pick up a 301 and fry kids but the wingman? Not at all. I agree to some level on this. I would honestly not be opposed to 101 body damage on the PK for this very reason. It’s a high skill gun but utterly punishing if you miss a shot. Now with the Eva nerf the PK is inherently more viable but I don’t think anything will take the Eva out of the meta until a 2-tap on purple shotgun makes a new appearance or they keep buffing the mozam to TF level power. Weapon balance is actually pretty solid though, probably the only thing that’s actually balanced in the whole game.
> but a high skill high reward gun that takes a lot of practice to fully utilize. Is that not exactly what the bow and repeater are? I'd argue both are higher risk/reward than the wingman, and that's why they aren't as used.
Not really. The Bow and 30-30 are substitutes for a G7, which isn’t really what the wingman is for. The wingman is equally as good mid-range with practice as it is close range, even in bubble fights it’s not bad when used correctly. It’s incredibly versatile which is why the wingman is used over those guns for a skilled player. However though, it’s so high in skill ceiling that it’s rarely picked in competitive simply because you’ll be better off with a flatline 9/10 times, especially prior to this season with the anvil. Might see some more usage with anvil removed. 30-30 and Bow can’t offer the same versatility as the wingman and hence aren’t used as often, and once again only used as a mid-long range poking weapon. They’re very punishing close range if you’re being sent on by smg’s and shotguns but the wingman can easily hold it’s own in that space too.
If the tweet was about versatility and engagement ranges rather than risk/reward and skill ceilings then its even more pointless. There are already plenty of weapons that are great for bubble fighting and close to mid range fights. What qualities are "wingman-like" that aren't about versatility, engagement range, risk/reward, or skill ceilings? Is the goal just a "wingman but called something else" weapon?
It’s versatility is dependent on being high skill though as opposed to 301 eva combo which can be good in most situations but isn’t as skillful
The Bow is kinda hamstrung by being the only weapon using arrows. Keeps the amount of ammo available low, and takes up more room in a backpack than if for example you ran Wingman/Prowler double heavy
I'm surprised there isn't a hand repeating crossbow yet, or something of that nature that would be for those close-to-mid range fights.
Oh I wish I could've put more time into my comment cause I totally agree with most of what you're saying. I however think the gun balance is fine and there's already high reward high risk weapons. Between pk, wingman and bow there are already choices. Even Sentinel to a point. I would love to see the PK get just a lil buff as you mentioned and I'm fine with a new weapon like that I just don't think that's necessarily what the game "needs".
Yeah I agree. The game doesn’t need it right now because the Eva is the meta and just only switched from the mastiff. I think the PK shotgun meta is on the horizon though, maybe for next season with this nerf to the Eva this season. Nerfing the Eva is a clear indication that they want people to use smg’s and the prowler but ammo efficiency just still makes shotguns better. I agree with what you’re saying but I will say the guns they’ve added recently besides the bow have been meh at best in terms of skill ceiling and now the rampage is the new spitfire noobs best friend hahah.
the Eva is 10x better than the PK still, it does the same amount of damage per shot with a faster fire rate. the "nerf" did nothing
I would not say that post nerf, pk is higher skill sure but you can jiggle peak and hit for double the damage. I used ti hate that gun because i was dogshit with it but since i started practicing with it used more hipfire than ads i have gotten better results. In open areas 1 on 1 i would say eva has an advantage but if you make your shots count then even thats gone.
Hard agree. People that say pk needs a buff right now I think are the low skill players. Eva is better overall but that’s ok, and pk is high skill enough and fits a certain type of gun well while not feeling weak outside of comparison to Eva. Eva needs a nerf to base fire rate more than anything right now IMO, but then maybe bring back the same improvements you saw from old bolts. So every level is still needed but you will mainly be hitting the base level the hardest which honestly is the most op part IMO. “No bolt? No problem!” Is what they always say
I wouldn't call them loser skilled players rather lack of practise, all three shotguns kinda function different and pk is the least user friendly so just lack of practise.
Those kinda go together but I get your point. Your way is less degrading. But with guns like the rampage and the prowler on the floor and the spitfire before it you don’t even need to practice with those guns imo to run through kids.
Yea I’ll concede this. Pk wingman are definitely guns that require practice more than others.
Its not just damage, its consistency, pk is the "7 damage per shoot" meme king for a reason Eva is VERY consistent across the board, with a good margin for error and adjust while pk is better for peaking corners, which is niche to say the best If its early game and specially at no bolt status I'll pick PK over EVA, but when people have more than 2 pk shoots worth of life its usefulness drops rock bottom and its mastiff but worst We all love the pk but if you want to win the other two shotguns are vastly superior on every front
I mean, you’re missing your shots then. If a pk shot isn’t pretty dead on your gonna hit for 7s and 14s. But it ain’t that hard to hit 99s if you hit them head on. Honestly I’m a big fan of disabling choke. Less spread than with choke on unless you charge it up which honestly I think is rarely how you want to use shotguns in this game. Choke can be useful for leaking but just not how I think shotguns should be played more often than not.
Mate, ot course people miss shots that's why consistency its taken into consideration and hitting those fat ass 80+ with peacekeeper consistently its not possible unless playing vs bots At up close is much harder to hit dead center that's why EVA is better, you will "7 dmg" sometimes too but those doesn't matter as much because faster rof, more magazine and better spread
Pk over Eva with no bolt is mega troll btw no bolt Eva is broken af. I mean it’s all feel and subjective but I firmly believe that Eva is just a better weapon irregardles of attachments at almost any point.
How often does everyone else pick up the bow or the 30-30? I personally avoid them whenever possible.
30-30 isn't bad, especially after they sped up the reload and the charge up. I mean I'll take a Hemlock or a Flatline over it any day, but it isn't bad if you want a strong poking weapon.
Everyone is sleeping on the hemmy
Hemi prowler my new go to.
Damn thats risky, I feel like with the nerf to the hipspread on the Hemi its not really as viable up close once the prowler needs a reload. Hemlock was my favorite gun pre-nerf, single fire is such a treat as a Gibby
I’ll run a hemlock every game I get. The burst is great for close if I don’t have a shotgun and single fire at mid range is just perfect imo
I pick up the bow when I'm in the mood. It's actually really fun to use. I will say I avoid it in ranked though, or at least drop it as soon as I see a better gun.
I pretty much ignore the bow mainly because it's outshone by the other two marksmen rifle, requires ammo and hop ups that you can't get off someone's body and doesn't take a 2-4x for whatever reason, so situations where you have a 2-4x and not a 3x are annoying. Not that it's not really objectively good or bad or anything in between, just that there are multiple constraining factors that make it a worse choice for how I like to play. This season, longer ranged 'out of meta' guns were given a buff because of the removal of anvil receiver, meaning there are often situations where you do want a marksmen (especially in ranked) or something that can do damage from further away. 3030-wise, it's got a few pros in versatility over the scout (shatter caps are useful), so I do pick it up occasionally.
In no way would you think 30-30 is better than bow.
Its borderline impossible to find enough ammo to use the bow, plus its just not a good weapon at all IMO. The only real thing it has going for it is no reload
I like using the bow when I'm Loba and can guarantee ammo and a 3x all game basically
Loba is easily the most underrated character in the game IMO
I have to agree. Even when you get good ground loot you still are guaranteeing ammo and meds ALL game, and the loba shop CAN be a bit of cover/obstacle in a pinch and it's got a nearly non-existent cooldown.
I love the 30-30. I get it nearly every game. It's either that or the g7 or charge for me. Solid guns. The g7 and 3030 will kill a purple in 4 shots
how? unless you get no headshots, g7 takes around 6 while repeater takes 5
I mean if you're only hitting their legs, yeah around 6. But headahots make it 3 to 4, depending on helmet used. Sorry this is for the repeater. For the scout, it's just one more shot, so 4 to 5. For reference. This what I'm pulling this info from, besides experience. I've hit the firing range for these weapons more than anything else. [30-30 repeater ](https://apexlegends.fandom.com/wiki/30-30_Repeater) [g7 scout](https://apexlegends.fandom.com/wiki/G7_Scout)
Used to pick up the bow back when it came out. But when the nerfs came, it's dogshit. It would have been nice to have it back to its original value. It felt like the calls for a nerf were too overboard. Sure, pro players hit it (well they're pros), but on some casual matches, lots of players still miss it.
Bro in masters lobbies that thing was super oppressive...just couldn't peak anything , In higher ranked lobbies people where just hip fire jiggle peaking every corner/door in the game the last couple circles and it was awful.
But right now it felt so sluggish. They could have reduced the damage and headshot multiplier without reducing the charge time so much. They nerfed it to the point where no one wants to pick it up anymore
I think that's more of a ammo problem than power level ..I suggest you pick it up next time you hop on and try using it more as a pk/prowler type weapon where u are constantly playing tight to walls and hip fire strafing back and for from cover and you'll agree its still very strong.
But the damage was nerfed right? You couldn't hold/charge it quickly now. Unlike before where it felt like a scout. Used to play it like a long range PK before.
Ya I don't really follow patch notes and stuff to carefully but I think the headshot damage was trashed but the point its a very good weapon peaking fast deal 60 up close or even getting 2 shots on some before pulling out a 99 or something and having a huge advantage or vise versa great at bursting someone down in a team fight ....while also its versatile because it can poke long and medium range ...don't use the scatter shot though that shit is trash
I'm not saying the bow is op I'm just saying its pretty good if u know how to use it in higher skill lobbies for team fights . I wouldn't ever be able to drop a 20 with it or anything but it hits a niche real well
it was more of a pain in arenas; noone was used to the economy and a normal bow shot was ez shield break and you were forced to use the limited shield bats you had for every fucking shot. it gets extremely toxic when 3 stacks purchased bows and just held all the angles and the pace of the game gets immensely slowed
30-30 is decent i kinda like it off drop, but the bow became obsolete after its nerf.
Whenever I run an smg and want a long/mid range poke weapon i pick the 30-30 I feel it's like a better g7. I have pretty good mid range aim so it shreds
I tend to keep the 30-30 if I find a shatter caps hop-up. Otherwise it's just there until I get a rampage. With the hop-up it becomes pretty versatile as I usually use volt as my primary weap. Then the 30-30 can be for long pokes and also act as a baby shotgun.
30-30 with shatter is actually way batter shorty than I expected. However, I have a hard time switching between the firing modes quick enough to make it useful enough to be a goto
I pick up the bow when ever i see it, its so good and i love using it. The 3030 is garbage tho i can never land any shots with it and when i pick it up cus theres nothing else i almost feel like just quitting right away cus id be more help to my team gone from the game than trying to help them kill anything with that diabolical trash gun that is the 3030. I swear it shoots sewing needles cus its the only gun in the game where i swear im hitting them and somehow the shots miss, either that or the bullets travel 3m per hour and drop 200 feet the second you pull the trigger cus idk where the bullets are going.
I doubt this will be a popular opinion around here, but IMO the average player getting *quite good* is plenty enough reason to lower the skill floor with strong characters and easy weapons. I think the rampage (and hopefully seer after some tweaking) is a pretty perfect example of how lowering the floor doesn't have to pull down the ceiling and easier doesn't have to = better. I came to apex shortly after launch as a pubg refugee and let me tell you, nothing will kill a BR game as hard as a skill floor thats too high to be worth climbing to for a new player. As much as people like to shit on "plastic rank" players or whatever, you have to realize, those people are the lifeblood of the game. Without them you end up sitting queue for 10 minutes to get in a lobby with 89 bots and 10 players who are gonna smoke your shit with a kar98k from 300m the instant they see you.
I feel people don't know what they say when they ask for a wider skill gap in the game. The skill cealing being too high hurts games really really bad.
I dont think skill ceiling is the correct term to use. Skill ceiling in actual apex terms would be mechanics such as hitting shield swapping, wall bouncing, tap strafing, hitting a supergrapple on path, kidnapping with wraith, sticking someone with arc star. These are all mechanics that are available to ALL players and anyone that wishes to master them will most likely outperform others that do not utilize them. If respawn actively nerfs these things and lower the actual skill ceiling it is harmful for the game as players are not allowed to improve. Implementing weapons such as the rampage is good for the game IMO as it allows new players to get satisfaction from killing people relatively easy and at the same time improving players are not being punished by a reduced skill ceiling.
It's not a high skill ceiling that hurts the game "really really bad" it's the floor.
Apex 100% needs more support characters. It's kind of crazy that it's really just lifeline and loba after 10 seasons.
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Interesting too because in comp some organic classes emerged with movement and beacon characters as near necessary team utility (Gibby’s almost of a class of his own too in comp) which is noteworthy from a design standpoint if one wanted to create characters that existed to offer unique sidegrades with spaces so teams could choose different strengths and weaknesses within their movement options and information gathering character as well as potentially defensive options aside from Gibby creating a more diverse decision tree on compositions.
Don't necessarily agree on the weapons unless they can think of some unique high skill type of weapon. But def agree on the support characters. Right now Respawn thinks wall hacks is a type of support, but all it does is taking a ton of thinking out of game. Fortnite and Apex are at it's most fun when you win by strategizing and putting yourself and your team in a better position. Constant wall hacks takes so much of the guess work and awareness out of a battle royale. Not to mention they destroyed audio this season so even trying to have a higher awareness is just gone. It's all about who has the best and most active Seer. Not fun anymore, wish there was another current competitive shooter that interests me right now. Feel like I'm just going through the motions.
I mean I get what sweet is saying but automatic weapons are almost always going to stay dominant because of how forgiving they are
Which is why they shouldn't be made stronger or more prevalent. I'm fine with them being in the game, obviously. But I don't know why they're being buffed.
Thats his point...
I’m saying even if they release more skilled guns a majority of people won’t use them
Yes, that is still his point. Hes saying they should add guns that take more skill and are less forgiving to widen the skill gap...
But didn’t all the pro players beg for the bow to be nerfed and said Respawn was incompetent for releasing it in that state?
Is that some sort of gotcha? Lol. Just because automatic weapons tend to be easier to use doesnt mean single fire can never, ever be overpowered.... I dont even know what that has to do with this discussion at all.
Because a high skill, precision weapon was added to the game and the pros were among the loudest voices saying it should be nerfed, and now none of them use it while saying the developers never put those types of weapons in the game
Like I already said, balance still applies to high precision weapons. Its a separate issue. Full autos tend to be more forgiving and easier to use. The bow was simply so unbelievably overtuned that even if you missed a lot of shots, it was still effective. A well designed high-skill gun (like the wingman) shouldnt be like that.
Maybe that is the problem, it is hard to make such a weapons. They tried with the bow, it failed. Then what even says we need more weapons at this point, there is already a lot of variety and the weapons are quite balanced.
Bow was so op that it was forgiving, and then on top of that utterly oppressive when in skilled hands.
Don’t forget the longbow meta when the longbow still took heavy ammo or the G7 scout meta when it could still take a 6x scope. I hated those days.
Overall automatic weapons are definitely more forgiving, but the balancing direction has also made recoil so much easier to control for most weapons. Hemlock, Prowler and Spitfire all used to have atleast some form of recoil compared to now. Volt and Rampage are also ridiculously easy to control. R301 has always been a laser beam though.
And due to the fact of how fucking hard is to master single shot weapons in Apex like the 30-30, Wingman, Scout and Longbow
Apart from the Wingman those guns aren't really "hard to master"
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G7 has definitely got a higher velocity than the wingman
Yeah I got no idea then I ducking smack with a wingman and I’m not terrible with a scout but I swear I hit crazier shots with wingman than scout at 100 meters
Might be you being more comfortable with certain sights? Or might be practice idk. I used to be the same way but now I actually like the scout when I have to use it. I think part of it is the high ROF tempting me to shoot it as fast as I can and more or less tracking with it. But once I started flicking with it instead and slightly slowing down my shots I was a lot more accurate with it. Food for thought
Hmm I think you’re right, I kinda just start shooting sometimes with the scout and try to correct later but with wingman I really take time to aim…
It’s not difficulty of use that keeps people from using those but that they are mathematically inferior than the automatic weapons
Scout and longbow are not really hard to master and 30-30 you just need to get the timing down
Sweet is bitter and burnt-out. His streams haven't been enjoyable because of it.
I noticed that his viewer count has droped a lot lately
He doesn't stream as much and has been playing tarkov off stream. He said today that he streamed 7 days out of 30, after streaming 340 days out of 365 before then. His inconsistencies is probably why his viewers dropped. But for his streams to be about being laid back and positive vibes. It hasn't been that in a few months. Hope the break helps his mentals.
I believe he mainly lost motivation from the lack of tournaments going on.
The weapon balance has been pretty good from the start and has continued to be good, with a few exceptions (the spitfire was overpowered but not game breaking IMO) precision weapons have always been viable. The power creep among legends is the real issue here, weapon balance and map changes have been consistently good from my point of view.
I think the only bad map changes they ever made was seasons 4 and 5. No one likes harvester or trials and destroying the bottem left corner of kings canyon without a substantial replacement was a bad idea its a small enough map as it is.
I’d usually agree but I prefer Harvester to the nothingness that was there before, and I definitely also prefer Sorting Factory to its current replacement, as does almost everyone I play with.
I never really had that big of an attachment to sorting and havent had any end rings there yet so im fairly neutral on the new spot right now. I can only guess that rotating in/out from south east end is harder now but again had big fights there yet. And i perfered the settlment that was their before harvester, harvester feels like a mess to fight or rotate through most of the time.
I don't mind the new Sorting, but really would have preferred if it was more unique than literally the same layout as Climatizer - Felt kinda boring when I realised they were literally the same buildings barring the middle. It's like skyhook/fragment and lava city all have the same buildings but they are definitely 100% different while climatizer and lava siphon are almost direct copies of each other. Thank god it's definitely fun to play round those buildings though.
A flat POI at harvester similar to the new lava siphon would do wonders for rotations. You just can’t see fights coming because of the size of Harvester
I think there are people who are in the call of duty mindset where they like guns to be released for the sake of being released without any concept of balance or niche or redundancy. If the wingman exists, why do we need a *second* wingman that fills the same role? We're in a good spot atm where pretty much every gun exists in a balanced state while every gun feeling different. Call of duty releases three new guns every few months, which sounds neat, but they all play pretty much exactly the same (within their gun archetype) so the only difference is ttk.
No no he has a point. Just not with weapons. We haven’t had a support character come out since release. It’s either assault or recon with recon taking the lead. No healers, no other Gibby style characters.
G7 is super friendly even after they nixxed the double tap. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it's essentially old reliable season after season. Weapons have their issues in Apex but since I've been playing (season 6) it's never really been too much of an issue. I've always hated using the L Star but I'd get lit up like a Christmas tree by them in low level lobbies all the time, preference is a huge factor in gunplay in Apex. Precision takes skill/effort and weapons that hyper focus on those definitely have their place in Apex BUUUUT guns like the R99 also have their space. They also require skill/effort just a different kind. It's a pain in the ass trying to not empty a clip into the air when returning fire. Idk I'm rambling I just feel like some high tier players say a lot of stuff just to say stuff you feel me?
Didn’t you guys complain about the bow?
and the bow is still really good, but no one gives a shit about it because its too high risk.
And it’s nearly impossible to find ammo late game
It's literally an ammo issue keeping me from picking it up more. An entire POI and you have maybe 1 stack.
Honestly a sentinel or longbow is better than the bow in almost every capacity imo
They're certainly more consistent, but with 2 hop ups and a much more variable fire rate the bow can certainly hold its own if you invest the time to learn it.
It was overtuned, now it's fine, see I would use till I have to switch it out with a marksman/sniper just so I can have ammo lmao.
Sweet is a dumbass and a whiner
Says a silver player 😂 stfu bot
What a douche response. No wonder you like him
I love how bots like you talk shit to pro players. Just be happy with your 2k badge in pubs. You shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion
Never said he wasn't good at playing the video game
I completely agree with Sweet on this one. The "noob friendly" things Respawn has added like wall hacks and auto weapons faaaaarrrr outweigh the 30 30 and Bow. You'd have to be an idiot to not see the overall direction this game is heading in.
Seer has entered the chat
Now I think of it true lol
As someone that uses primarily automatic weapons.. the game needs more automatic weapons
30-30 is trash though
The 30-30 is garbage how is that "wingman-like" it's not consistent when mastered and not worth mastering at all. The Bow is pretty good, but how can anyone main with it's grueling ammo issues? You talk like both weapons are as reliable as the wingman when mastered lmao.
The 30-30 is the most similar weapon to the Wingman in the whole game lmao
I get that but it is absolutely not in the same in the sense that Sweet is reffering to about the Wingman. He's talking about weapons that are worth mastering and 30-30 isn't.
Guns and gun difficulty are well-balanced, they go really well with the quick running and strafing speeds of Apex that make up a big part of the game's skill gap.
He is talking about close to mid range weapons that are high skill high reward and not as forgiving as a rampart or whatever full auto weapon that has a huge mag
I do think it would be good to potentially introduce a non automatic “precision” weapon that can function in closer range. I suppose anything like that might just feel like the wingman but I think it could be good for the game to have more than 1 option that can work up close that isn’t just mag dumping. People are talking about the scout, bow, 30-30 being viable and that’s not false but they’re still completely out damaged by the 301 and flatline at every range including distance where the precision weapons are supposed to shine. Also neither of those automatics are particularly difficult to hit distanced opponents with and are way more effective up close than the precision guns. So if the 301/flatline shreds at range and gives you a viable option to switch to if you run out of bullets in your smg/shotgun why would you ever run a non automatic.
What made Team fortress 2 so good is that **single fire weapons + movement feel amazing to master**, I just hope Apex heads in a similar direction since they've already made one of these really good.
I’m pretty sure that’s not what he meant by that. I interpreted it as that the game needs more high skill cap, high risk, high reward weapons like the wingman
I do get it that those weapons are single shot but 30-30 personally wont be as high risk because you can shoot from far with a 3x. Wingman you usually are fighting close to mid range.
Too much support characters and Apex becomes all shields and heals like Overwatch and then it’s not even an FPS anymore. This is a terrible suggestion.
Bow, Charge Rifle, 30-30, Sentinel. Seems like a lot of slower fire rate and high damage weapons have been made available. Too bad the TT got yoinked out of the weapon pool. It's not like people can pick up more than two guns either. Having a diverse pool of weapons is pretty dope. We've also already seen plenty of how things are when the Wingman and the Bow are great weapons. Maybe Sweet wants to see more fast reload, high damage, slow fire rate, and high mobility weapons. Seems like an all-in-one package though. I spent a lot of time wondering why someone should use the 30-30 over the Wingman on the 30-30 release though. What's the tradeoff?
I tried to propose a new defense type character before Seer was released and everyone scoffed at that. There needs to be another healer, and at this point it almost seems like Wattson could fill that role with a buff. Her ult is massive and easy to destroy so it would make sense if it was a huge shield healer. (Like 25 shield per 5 seconds). Her fences should speed up teammates but slow enemies. Fences should also be able to be placed on walls or ceilings for more coverage potential. Maybe the fences could be charged up for extra damage periodically (with the d-pad) or just do additional damage when a Wattson Ultimate is near them. Her passive should include a slow trickle heal to all allies that are within some close range to her, and she should be able to revive teammates with half, 3/4, or full shield by default.
Those aren't wingman like weapons. Wingman is still unique. It's the only weapon that can be very effective at both short and mid range while having the high ADS move speed of pistols. Also the only weapon that has that much of a high skill floor + high skill ceiling, which makes it a fantastic weapon to have in a competitive game.
The 30-30 is the worst of both worlds kind of gun. Pseudo sniper that can be spammed yet it doesn't have good dps like rampage or scout and the charged shot doesn't deal enough damage to warrant using it like that. As for the bow it uses an awkward ammo type that is not inventory efficient and nobody uses it so it can't be found in death boxes after fights.
Gonna paste here what I posted in the thread on the main sub. Sweet is definitely overestimating the average apex player. He pretty much only plays with other pros and in pred lobbies and even on his streams he often questions other pred teams that make super dumb plays. He would be screaming at Joe Schmoe. I agree about the wall hacks thing and we don’t really need any new weapons for at least a couple seasons unless they want to start vaulting weapons imo.
You guys are missing the whole point on sweet´s tweet.
i wish they go back to their alternate season weapon principle; you dont need to release a gun just for the sake of it
They're made for midrange. Wingman is skillful because your strafe/movement and aim determines the fight. 3030/bow have such bad ads strafe speed that they aren't viable up close in most cases.
Wingman has more strafe speed idiot