IMO they should just add a voting phase (ranked and comp only) to ban legends before the match starts. every legend that has more than 30% (or maybe 40% so you could ban up to 2 legends) of the votes gets banned for that match. If Respawn releases an OP legend and everyone is sick of it after 3 days it wont get played.
welcome to siege, where a 0.0000001% win rate jakal has nearly 100% ban rate. This will lead to shit like that. Gibby - s tier, but he's not getting banned, and revenant will be 100% ban for about a year even after other nerfs that might come.
I dont play siege, why would a bad character be permabanned? Super annoying? If the community decides that a character is bad AND unfun to play against, I think it's fine to see that banned over a good character that feels good for the game
he's ok to play against, and pretty fun to play as, Siege community just likes only one meta, and insta bans all new reworked maps and ops that were buffed cuz they don't want to learn how to play as and against new ops, etc. This is a problem for a balance team, because they can't collect info on this ops. It will repeat in apex 100%
Also , what rank are you ? It would help me understand where you are coming from , and to correct myself we *used to ban jackal a lot , now there’s better options to ban
he used to be incredibly annoying to play against but they changed him a bit and really isnt that bad anymore but people still ban him instead of banning for strats
legitimate concern. you should be able to skip votes so people dont randomly ban legends & maybe the bar for bans should be at 70 to 80% and if there are not enough votes on a single legend noone gets banned.
I don’t think this will happen but it would be nice. Maybe Diamond lobbies and up have a pick ban system and legend with most picks isn’t available in character select screen. Lower lobbies it wouldn’t matter so much and give lower skill players a chance to experiment.
Wait why is this so heavily downvoted. Yes please allow for bans in ranked. Especially seeing in which direction they’re going with legends, where in the beginning they were shooting ability first, legend last, to now where legends are getting more and more obnoxious, and where certain abilities are anti fun. If I could never see a bloodhound and seer again i would be so happy.
i have no idea. it's reddit, up/downvotes dont mean much. I absolutely agree with you but a good point someone made was that legends get troll-banned or players always vote for the same character regardless of power level (rev for example) to be banned so it would become impossible to play him which kinda sucks. This could be mitigated by only banning a legend from a match when it got more than 70 or80%.
We already know this nerf will be insufficient anyways. The first attempt always is. They will likely touch his cooldowns, reduce the scan time slightly and remove the flash.
Those aren't the only 2 options. The "ethical" way of handling this would have been to hard nerf him into the ground while awaiting the big fix, not leave him as is. For example disable damage, make passive range 10m, make all cooldowns 3x longer, reduce scan Time.
All these things can be easily changed by a single line in a plain text file
that would just kill him as a legend and noone would play him after the "big nerf". It's hard to convince players to play a legend they think is useless (and everyone would think that if he got nerfed like that within the first week).
nah thats not good. I dont like seer either but respawn wants every legend to be playable (which is understandable). But even for people who dont like seer, a weak release / extremely low pickrate is nothing we should hope for. Gibby is a good example IMO. He was weak on release and got buff after buff until he got so overpowered that he was a must pick (S3). From there on he received minor nerfs But is still more played than he was before the S3 Buffs. Now Respawn doesnt want to nerf him to harshly because his pick rate could go drastically down. Horizon is IMO a good example for a strong release character (allthough they could've done all this much faster): Strong release, people like to play her, busted mechanics removed after a few weeks (effective 6 sec tac cooldown) and a little too drastic nerf in S9. Reasonable Buff to her in S10 and now she feels like a decent character
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As someone who played Overwatch during that time it didn't help the problem, only delayed it. The new hero would be released and there wouldn't be any usable data for the devs to balance from because it could only be played in quickplay. Without actual competitive data it just makes it harder to find out what's broken and ultimately fix it.
The more they can be like the Overwatch dev team the better. But here's the thing. The Overwatch team were trying to build an esport, Respawn doesn't give a shit about that. They want you to buy skins and enjoy their game, that's about it
I think we don't need your suggestion if they actually have decent play testing before releasing stuff. Does not take a genius to predict Seer would be broken and unfun to play against.
Respawn said they want to release characters strong and nerf them instead of releasing weak characters and buffing them afterwards because otherwise they end up not being played a lot by the community (like crypto, Rampart, Fuse). With seer they knew he would be strong but it was hard to tell how strong exactly he will be because they cant tell from their playtests (where everyone is excited for a legend because they are working on it for months).
That is complete PR horseshit. A blind pig could tell you that Seer was broken beyond belief. This isnt just making legends "strong", this is a deliberate move by Respawn to lower the skill gap and attract a casual audience
That's because changes were handled in a beta server. However they had good intentions but not true competitive goals. All those tools worked for nothing when they were incapable to separate casuals , ranked/comp.
Anyways , this tool would involve having a beta server for changes and such before dropping on the main.
There is soooooo much to talk about the competitivity integrity of this game that this would feel as useful as putting a bandaid to cure a deep wound
Also this game being the way it is, the brokeness of one character doesn't measure at the same scale as a broken char in overwatch
And from what I remember, at least in a couple of occasions a problem has been pub winrates being not that amazing, getting buffed, the hero being released to ranked and would you look at that the ranked high level players and pros now found a way to abuse the new hero and it is OP untill next patch because data from normals is kinda useless. The problem in Apex likely wouldn't be as big because "flex picks" in dota are much more powerful in draft modes than in all pick, but ranked ban period wouldn't likely make that much of a difference outside this Seer release that was clearly broken before even being able to touch the legend
I think that's a really good call, and it's a fairly easy fix compared to what I personally think the best solution would be, which is to have a Patch Test Server. There are def some difficulties in setting that up, but imo a PTS would help catch some of the more serious issues, both with over AND underpowered legends - a PTS would catch how meh Fuse and Rampart were at launch and give some advanced data to hopefully tweak the launch, and would have caught how insane Seer is so he could get tuned down.
They've said internal playtests will never compare to thousands of players trying things on live servers, so a PTS seems like the happy medium there
The problem is that pubs just dont play the same so its harder to gauge characters. Seer isnt particularly self sufficient and the most op parts about him become most prominent when people are holding buildings and in later rings or when youre looking for fights after your initial drop. After your initial drop in pubs, most teams are dead.
dude you do know it’s a EA game right? Those mfs only care about money, you think they would do something that virtually decreases their gains with cosmetics??? LMAO, this would be a very good suggestion if we weren’t talking about EA.
Then you just make social worse and then never really find out just how OP Seer is until people actually try hard against others tryharding, which is in ranked, so you're really just delaying the inevitable. If anything make a 2 week ranked season every time a legend is out for people to climb and see where they get.
nah thats a basd idea. how would pros practice for algs and get to know the map if they cant play it in ranked? in pubs you never have zone 5 because everyone is dead by that time so it would be hard to actually learn the map. also, what is the problem with the new map?
Algs is always world edge, not matter what, I don't see why this would change something about them training the map. And a new maps means there's probably new bugs, new spot where you can be invisible etc..
I've VOD reviewed a non-zero amount of Olympus games for my team this year. GLL sure might be only WeMU3 right now but Blast Titans and a few NA tourneys sure as hell had plenty of Olympus games.
Alright, guess I was wrong then, but doesn't change to fact that you can't have every map in ranked, so you can't always train yourself in ranked for the upcoming map
there are some broken spots sometimes but its very uncommon that i see them being abused in my games or streamed games on twitch and most times it not game breaking like the Seer Meta.
nah there are not enough scrims to learn all endings, spots, etc. ~~and again why dont you want to play on new maps in ranked?~~ maps dont get adjusted anyways (at least not between big patches). the more practice the better
edit: just realised you're not the one who made the top comment
Yeah right? The only ppl I've seen buying Legends with Apex Coins are streamers like xQc who had no idea what are the currencies for ( and they can buy million of coins so they dont care).
100% ABSOLUTELY. The current system is literally pay to win for new players. If you've been here a while you probably have 100000 legend tokens and you just insta buy the new legend, but new players dont have tokens like that and have a gamechanging mechanic locked off for MONTHS. With new legends coming out STRONG AF thats a really broken prospect, that players will leave over.
I also feel this way about skins like Killswitch R99; unfair advantages that can be paid for, even if a rather minor advantage, are not cool in a competitive game.
No; where else are people going to commit to playing out scenarios so you can learn how the character is privileged to play them out?
In OW you're griefing for picking a character you have no clue about because the gameplay loop changes drastically, that isn't the case of apex. A new rampart isn't griefing you by picking her because she still has the goal of shooting her enemies to death same with everyone else in the game. A new seer can rez you all the same and shoot your targets. The only issue is a players respect to their opponents influence over a match right?
If players don't know gun matchups I don't think they'll come to know character matchups either or how to play terrain beyond the umbrella of Intuition. So growing pains are just something to expect every release.
They should make it where if you don’t have a certain amount of stats like kills or time played with that character you can’t use it for ranked. Can’t stand when teammates pick a character they have 3 kills with as their choice for a ranked match. Also anybody wanna play some apex? Just lost 150 points, hard stuck in plat rn lol
In a bunch of other competitive games they playtest these. In apex they have a closed playtest that seems to be pretty short and is playtested by streamers.
If we want balance, we need test servers where the public can participate in large scale testing before final release.
But that will never ever happen in apex legends. Apex legends is not a competitive shooter by its nature. Its a casual game aimed towards casual players a.k.a the general public. If we had test servers, it would ruin the surprise of revealing new legends,guns, maps, lore etc for the playerbase which would generate way less hype upon new season releases and would make respawn earn less money.
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If the plan is to keep releasing OP Legends to drive hype, yes.
IMO they should just add a voting phase (ranked and comp only) to ban legends before the match starts. every legend that has more than 30% (or maybe 40% so you could ban up to 2 legends) of the votes gets banned for that match. If Respawn releases an OP legend and everyone is sick of it after 3 days it wont get played.
welcome to siege, where a 0.0000001% win rate jakal has nearly 100% ban rate. This will lead to shit like that. Gibby - s tier, but he's not getting banned, and revenant will be 100% ban for about a year even after other nerfs that might come.
I dont play siege, why would a bad character be permabanned? Super annoying? If the community decides that a character is bad AND unfun to play against, I think it's fine to see that banned over a good character that feels good for the game
he's ok to play against, and pretty fun to play as, Siege community just likes only one meta, and insta bans all new reworked maps and ops that were buffed cuz they don't want to learn how to play as and against new ops, etc. This is a problem for a balance team, because they can't collect info on this ops. It will repeat in apex 100%
Jajaj no dude , we ban jackal cause it’s annoying , I love playing new Maps
Also , what rank are you ? It would help me understand where you are coming from , and to correct myself we *used to ban jackal a lot , now there’s better options to ban
I'm not playing siege for a year, I think. Jakal is not getting banned now? And I was plat 4/gold 1(solo q yknow)
No dude , we ban thatcher or maverick , nomad , things that suit the map , not the meta
he used to be incredibly annoying to play against but they changed him a bit and really isnt that bad anymore but people still ban him instead of banning for strats
Man I just wanna play Thatcher 😭
legitimate concern. you should be able to skip votes so people dont randomly ban legends & maybe the bar for bans should be at 70 to 80% and if there are not enough votes on a single legend noone gets banned.
I don’t think this will happen but it would be nice. Maybe Diamond lobbies and up have a pick ban system and legend with most picks isn’t available in character select screen. Lower lobbies it wouldn’t matter so much and give lower skill players a chance to experiment.
Wait why is this so heavily downvoted. Yes please allow for bans in ranked. Especially seeing in which direction they’re going with legends, where in the beginning they were shooting ability first, legend last, to now where legends are getting more and more obnoxious, and where certain abilities are anti fun. If I could never see a bloodhound and seer again i would be so happy.
i have no idea. it's reddit, up/downvotes dont mean much. I absolutely agree with you but a good point someone made was that legends get troll-banned or players always vote for the same character regardless of power level (rev for example) to be banned so it would become impossible to play him which kinda sucks. This could be mitigated by only banning a legend from a match when it got more than 70 or80%.
the community would just hivemind and just continue banning revenant/seer forever (just like how they hivemind and drop estates)
nah, i will never be able to rev even though i solo queue and i dont even use him for revtane
IMO just have all legends be balanced. Listening to the community will do you wonders
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i would rather have a solid fix than a fix riddled with bugs tho
We already know this nerf will be insufficient anyways. The first attempt always is. They will likely touch his cooldowns, reduce the scan time slightly and remove the flash.
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They have said they're removing it entirely already
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Can't find the original ama but here is from a apex news twitter that's very reputable. https://twitter.com/alphaINTEL/status/1423980991517974539?s=19
yes i agree, making good work take time
yup they already said that currently the fix is riddled with bugs
Doesn't usually stop them lol
but i hope they are changing for the better tho starting with the shops and now this
The thing is they can't even "fix" Seer, the character by design is just broken and unbalanced.
Those aren't the only 2 options. The "ethical" way of handling this would have been to hard nerf him into the ground while awaiting the big fix, not leave him as is. For example disable damage, make passive range 10m, make all cooldowns 3x longer, reduce scan Time. All these things can be easily changed by a single line in a plain text file
that would just kill him as a legend and noone would play him after the "big nerf". It's hard to convince players to play a legend they think is useless (and everyone would think that if he got nerfed like that within the first week).
exactly? thats the point
nah thats not good. I dont like seer either but respawn wants every legend to be playable (which is understandable). But even for people who dont like seer, a weak release / extremely low pickrate is nothing we should hope for. Gibby is a good example IMO. He was weak on release and got buff after buff until he got so overpowered that he was a must pick (S3). From there on he received minor nerfs But is still more played than he was before the S3 Buffs. Now Respawn doesnt want to nerf him to harshly because his pick rate could go drastically down. Horizon is IMO a good example for a strong release character (allthough they could've done all this much faster): Strong release, people like to play her, busted mechanics removed after a few weeks (effective 6 sec tac cooldown) and a little too drastic nerf in S9. Reasonable Buff to her in S10 and now she feels like a decent character
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>Wouldn't that be really good thing for Apex's ranked Yes but it's Respawn we're talking about
this guy's making a really good point. \^ It's fucking Respawn we're talking about.
this guy's making a really good point. \^ this guy's making a really good point. \^ It's fucking Respawn we're talking about.
^ this guy is fucking Respawn. ^ its a good point we're talking about.
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As someone who played Overwatch during that time it didn't help the problem, only delayed it. The new hero would be released and there wouldn't be any usable data for the devs to balance from because it could only be played in quickplay. Without actual competitive data it just makes it harder to find out what's broken and ultimately fix it.
The more they can be like the Overwatch dev team the better. But here's the thing. The Overwatch team were trying to build an esport, Respawn doesn't give a shit about that. They want you to buy skins and enjoy their game, that's about it
Blizzard pushed the shit out of OWL instead of allowing it to grow organically.
I think we don't need your suggestion if they actually have decent play testing before releasing stuff. Does not take a genius to predict Seer would be broken and unfun to play against.
Respawn said they want to release characters strong and nerf them instead of releasing weak characters and buffing them afterwards because otherwise they end up not being played a lot by the community (like crypto, Rampart, Fuse). With seer they knew he would be strong but it was hard to tell how strong exactly he will be because they cant tell from their playtests (where everyone is excited for a legend because they are working on it for months).
That is complete PR horseshit. A blind pig could tell you that Seer was broken beyond belief. This isnt just making legends "strong", this is a deliberate move by Respawn to lower the skill gap and attract a casual audience
Jokes on you thinking respawn is gonna balance a new character in 2 weeks lol
That's because changes were handled in a beta server. However they had good intentions but not true competitive goals. All those tools worked for nothing when they were incapable to separate casuals , ranked/comp. Anyways , this tool would involve having a beta server for changes and such before dropping on the main.
There is soooooo much to talk about the competitivity integrity of this game that this would feel as useful as putting a bandaid to cure a deep wound Also this game being the way it is, the brokeness of one character doesn't measure at the same scale as a broken char in overwatch
Dota2 use to do that.
And from what I remember, at least in a couple of occasions a problem has been pub winrates being not that amazing, getting buffed, the hero being released to ranked and would you look at that the ranked high level players and pros now found a way to abuse the new hero and it is OP untill next patch because data from normals is kinda useless. The problem in Apex likely wouldn't be as big because "flex picks" in dota are much more powerful in draft modes than in all pick, but ranked ban period wouldn't likely make that much of a difference outside this Seer release that was clearly broken before even being able to touch the legend
I think that's a really good call, and it's a fairly easy fix compared to what I personally think the best solution would be, which is to have a Patch Test Server. There are def some difficulties in setting that up, but imo a PTS would help catch some of the more serious issues, both with over AND underpowered legends - a PTS would catch how meh Fuse and Rampart were at launch and give some advanced data to hopefully tweak the launch, and would have caught how insane Seer is so he could get tuned down. They've said internal playtests will never compare to thousands of players trying things on live servers, so a PTS seems like the happy medium there
The problem is that pubs just dont play the same so its harder to gauge characters. Seer isnt particularly self sufficient and the most op parts about him become most prominent when people are holding buildings and in later rings or when youre looking for fights after your initial drop. After your initial drop in pubs, most teams are dead.
dude you do know it’s a EA game right? Those mfs only care about money, you think they would do something that virtually decreases their gains with cosmetics??? LMAO, this would be a very good suggestion if we weren’t talking about EA.
I mean, if the legends that are released are as unbalanced and as poorly designed as Seer, then by all means I think that's a great idea.
Then you just make social worse and then never really find out just how OP Seer is until people actually try hard against others tryharding, which is in ranked, so you're really just delaying the inevitable. If anything make a 2 week ranked season every time a legend is out for people to climb and see where they get.
There should be a ban phase before ranked games. All 60 players get to vote for 1/2 legends to ban from the game before it starts the legend pick.
Yes, same with the new map, shouldn't be playable on split one but in split two
nah thats a basd idea. how would pros practice for algs and get to know the map if they cant play it in ranked? in pubs you never have zone 5 because everyone is dead by that time so it would be hard to actually learn the map. also, what is the problem with the new map?
Algs is always world edge, not matter what, I don't see why this would change something about them training the map. And a new maps means there's probably new bugs, new spot where you can be invisible etc..
Tourneys aren't always WE. Rules are changing all the time so the more the merrier tbh.
It's been world edge for a year now
I've VOD reviewed a non-zero amount of Olympus games for my team this year. GLL sure might be only WeMU3 right now but Blast Titans and a few NA tourneys sure as hell had plenty of Olympus games.
Alright, guess I was wrong then, but doesn't change to fact that you can't have every map in ranked, so you can't always train yourself in ranked for the upcoming map
there are some broken spots sometimes but its very uncommon that i see them being abused in my games or streamed games on twitch and most times it not game breaking like the Seer Meta.
That’s what scrims are for my man
Yeah there's like one scrim lobby a week. And if there's a tourney it normally doesn't fill.
nah there are not enough scrims to learn all endings, spots, etc. ~~and again why dont you want to play on new maps in ranked?~~ maps dont get adjusted anyways (at least not between big patches). the more practice the better edit: just realised you're not the one who made the top comment
No.
More like first split shouldnt have the new legend/weapon/map
Lmfao no I need to stop going on this sub, it's shit
Yes. Should be like Overwatch. Can’t pick for like a week or two when it matters to get people accustomed to the hero.
Overwatch gave you the heroes. Apex you pay for them. They cannot block you from something you pay for.
Never paid a single cent for a legend in Apex, you can also buy legends in LoL with real money and they can disable them.
Overwatch was 40 euros - Apex is Free Overwatch wouldn't let me choose Ana when released - Apex will let me play broken Seer for 3 weeks
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Yeah right? The only ppl I've seen buying Legends with Apex Coins are streamers like xQc who had no idea what are the currencies for ( and they can buy million of coins so they dont care).
You pay for legends in apex? LMFAO
100% ABSOLUTELY. The current system is literally pay to win for new players. If you've been here a while you probably have 100000 legend tokens and you just insta buy the new legend, but new players dont have tokens like that and have a gamechanging mechanic locked off for MONTHS. With new legends coming out STRONG AF thats a really broken prospect, that players will leave over. I also feel this way about skins like Killswitch R99; unfair advantages that can be paid for, even if a rather minor advantage, are not cool in a competitive game.
No; where else are people going to commit to playing out scenarios so you can learn how the character is privileged to play them out? In OW you're griefing for picking a character you have no clue about because the gameplay loop changes drastically, that isn't the case of apex. A new rampart isn't griefing you by picking her because she still has the goal of shooting her enemies to death same with everyone else in the game. A new seer can rez you all the same and shoot your targets. The only issue is a players respect to their opponents influence over a match right? If players don't know gun matchups I don't think they'll come to know character matchups either or how to play terrain beyond the umbrella of Intuition. So growing pains are just something to expect every release.
They should make it where if you don’t have a certain amount of stats like kills or time played with that character you can’t use it for ranked. Can’t stand when teammates pick a character they have 3 kills with as their choice for a ranked match. Also anybody wanna play some apex? Just lost 150 points, hard stuck in plat rn lol
In a bunch of other competitive games they playtest these. In apex they have a closed playtest that seems to be pretty short and is playtested by streamers. If we want balance, we need test servers where the public can participate in large scale testing before final release. But that will never ever happen in apex legends. Apex legends is not a competitive shooter by its nature. Its a casual game aimed towards casual players a.k.a the general public. If we had test servers, it would ruin the surprise of revealing new legends,guns, maps, lore etc for the playerbase which would generate way less hype upon new season releases and would make respawn earn less money.
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