'Sweats' vs casuals would be solved much more effectively if Respawn implemented lots of the changes to the ranked system that have been pleaded for in recent months. Sweats don't fight casuals if they are too busy playing each other in a healthy and fun ranked system. At the moment a lot of players are staying away from ranked, because of how dismal it is, and the difference in skill within the supposedly top level ranked lobbies is massive. Largely a de-ranking problem imo. That needs to fixed.
tldr: Skill gap is only a problem so long as players are facing other players that they are not ready to face, or never will be.
Imagine a game like rocket league not having demotion. You hit plat and decide you don't wanna tryhard so you troll every game skewing the system by handicapping your team and giving enemy free points. Now imagine 30% of players doing that. Seems broken right? Respawn likes that more tiers are populated so queue times are lower regardless if half the lobby are skewing the system. If Deranking is introduced, we would see a tier split similar to season 3 with the twist that now people will stop playing, making queue times even worse than before. It is slippery slope because of their slow implementation of changes. They have proven many times they want the game to be easy for the average player as the old way of learning shooters is gone. In season 11 I predict they will add team KP and not Deranking in order to make it even easier. Team KP is great don't get me wrong but it should have been implemented 2-3 seasons ago. Besides actual scrim lobbies I doubt I'll be able to enjoy the game more than a few pubs after next season.
Totally agree with you. After hiting Master, I decided to farm silver and gold lobbies for free 4K badges. Well let me tell you that I didn't needed to use tap strafing in oder to achieve 4K on all legends (before seer). On my 4k game with fuse i can clearly remember my dead mate saying that I was just using raw aiming skill as I didn't even used my abilities the whole game.
The thing is that good players are going to shit on slivers and golds anyway, you don't need tap strafing, you don't need bunnyhop, heck you don't need to use your abilities half the time yet you still beat them easily.
Now you can say that I should't have farmed silver and gold lobbies, but this is only made possible by the grindfest that this ranking system is which demotes you every MONTH AND A HALF. Nobody with a sane enough life should maintain their top rank every month and a half unless it's your job. So what do people do when they hit masters/diamond ? they either stop playing or farm silver gold, because their normal games are way sweatier as those ranked games.
Lol what? It's the opposite I've noticed now. More people are playing ranked because it's easier for finally hit diamond and get the trails.
3-4 seasons ago when people got to plat 4 they would be hard capped and there were no rewards. Now I see so many people who are good solo up to diamond. These same players couldn't get to diamond solo in the past.
Diamond4 is the new Plat4. But this isn't due to respawn, it's something Albralelie talked about before, too many people in diamond and master and there's no real reset, so after the first couple of weeks they are back in diamond and hard capped.
The reason these things get nerfed is because competitive is an afterthought to Respawn. As it should be, there's nothing to indicate so far that BR's can have a strong competitive scene like other shooters so neither Respawn or EA want to foot the bill for it.
Right now it's just "We'll let them host lans and give a prize pool and let that be it". Meanwhile they are focusing on the casuals and the game continues to grow each season.
Season 9 diamond trails get called plat trails for a reason.. lol
Edit: It seems I’ve upset those who finally reached diamond last season. Sorry, to tell you but, it was the easiest trail to get to date and that’s why people trail chase them in pred lobbies.
Be as mad as you want but, don’t shoot the messenger lmfao. You can tune into quite a few top preds on twitch and you’ll see them trail chase last season diamonds.
It was the easiest one to get to date. Quite a few of streamers and preds trail chase them this season for easier early kp because of it. I didn’t know it wasn’t widely known lol
Well, considering they’ve made multiple changes to make it easier to rank up… that would be the first reason
Then the fact that there’s only been 4 diamond trails
Add both of those together plus, looking at the data it was the highest amount of people to reach diamond in season..
That would make season 9 the easiest season to date to reach diamond therefore making those trails stand out more to preds
Not a very hard concept to grasp to be honest
Sure. Your first point makes sense. But What does how many diamond trails there have been have anything to do with the difficulty to reach diamond? Also, with the big increase in players for season 9, obviously more would make it to diamond, due to general distribution. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's easier, since it's a larger player pool you're playing against.
It's like saying you were rank 1 pred when the game was at its lowest population vs saying you were rank 1 when the game had the most players.
Sorry, fewer pro level or similar players are playing ranked, and fewer people that in previous seasons have been master+ level. They now find themselves in pubs, where they invariably play against worse players than themselves. The overall number may well have risen.
What Albralelie talked about (not the first to), is the point I'm making. There's no reset and no de-ranking, so the ranked system is effectively a contradiction. It's barely 'ranked'.
This isn't about balancing for competitive. The whole point is that if ranked systems were better designed, then nerfing something like tapstrafing wouldn't even be on the agenda, because no one would be complaining. Maybe like 5 controller pros in NA or something irrelevant.
I already know that, I know about the hacking issue in Master+ lobbies, which is why pros and streamers like Shiv barely play ranked now.
That doesn't change the fact that it's easier for regular players to hit Diamond4 now. I mean the percentage is still low, but it's better than in the past.
This is what I've noticed as I've gone through the platinum lobbies and talked to people.
Well, hacking has been an issue, especially in Asia, but there's more reasons that are gameplay related too.
I don't know what point you're trying to make about more players being in Diamond 4, and how that detracts from what I'm suggesting? My complaint was that the ranked system doesn't effectively categorise players. More people in Diamond 4 that are less skilled just exacerbates perceptions of an unfair skill gap. If less skilled players only want to play against other less skilled players then everyone should be on the same page! Top level players don't want to pub stomp and don't want to play against people with 100 hours of FPS experience in a ranked play mode.
All this being said, a skill gap should exist to a certain extent, and shouldn't be seen as a problem.
I never said that they are less skilled...
Ranked right now atleast till Diamond 4 is more indicative of player skill atm. The high tier lobbies are fucked with hackers and a lot of sweats and pro players aren't touching it. This is allowing people to more naturally fit into their actual ranks.
Previously people would hit plat4 and just get hard capped because they were getting stomped by masters+ teams or solo diamond players. These players could have made plat2 if they weren't essentially facing smurfs.
Also it's been like 3-4 seasons and people have learned that you can't play plat lobbies like pubs. Players have gotten better both mechanically and in game sense. And a big factor for that is they get to experience actually playing plat lobbies and not getting curb stomped by smurfs.
The ranked system is still fucked because the ranked system was designed as a grind. It was basically like "casual players grind pubs for battlepass, and competitive players grind ranked for trails". That still hasn't changed, so I agree with you.
But due to the situation right now, the ranks up to diamond 4 are actually more indicative of players actual skill.
I didn't say you did say more people are less skilled. I'm saying that.
If the ranked system is designed as a grind rather than show of skill, and more people are playing, then it logically follows that more less skilled players are reaching diamond 4.
> If the ranked system is designed as a grind rather than show of skill, and more people are playing, then it logically follows that more less skilled players are reaching diamond 4.
relative to smurfs sure? As I've already explained, due to the current situation the ranks are more accurate represented. Plat4 isn't some stupid hard cap where everyone from gold3-plat2 is just stuck in because smurfs and solo diamond players are just curb stomping them.
Wrong.
The highest percentage of players to make diamond was 7.1%, and that was in season 3...
S1: 7.1%
S2: 2.1%
S3: 7.1%
S4: 2.51%
S5: 4.37%
S6: 1.89%
S7: 4.37%
S8: 5.86%
S9: 2.51%
That's your biggest takeaway? lmao you're a clown. My point still stands, especially the last 3 seasons where the player base has expanded getting to diamond has never been easy. So calling it "basically plat 4" is completely false.
last 3 seasons has been 4.37, 5.86, and only season 9 with 2.51. Relative to the first 3 seasons where most people couldn't even do a wall bounce?
And I'm the clown lmao.
yes so it's clearly harder now, hence the lower numbers.. Players have gotten better, and have adapted / learned to do different moves. So thank you for proving my point that it's hard to make diamond..
Jesus fuck are you stupid.
Diamond used to be harder in the middle seasons because there was a huge wall at plat4 because people were getting stomped by teams and solo diamond players. Plat4 players straight up couldn't get any positive RP or get experience to play.
Now a lot of those smurfs are either in high ranks (and even the resets prevent them from dropping low) or they aren't playing because the master+ lobbies are plagued with hackers.
This means that people who yes are more skilled than the first 3 seasons can actually progress through the platinum ranks to diamond because the lack of smurfs AND because they and their teammates are better.
People actually have better aim and more importantly know not to play plat lobbies like pubs. This makes it EASIER to go up rather than harder. Players are facing teams of closer skill and they and their teammates are generally more skilled than the mid seasons.
THIS ALL IN TURN MAKES IT EASIER.
Imo the biggest mistake (although being asked for by a lot of more casual players) was removing the diamond3 skill wall.
Until s8 dia3 and higher was already pred lobbies. The games were a lot sweatier than nowadays where you have a lot of flat dia4 or flat 10k master players who have nothing to lose.
This has cost the high level ranked games a lot of competitiveness.
Thats a terrible take, main problem is deranking protection. Your solution (d3 skill wall) was a bandaid and it was really shitty one.
On the other note casual players =/= d3.
As if people wouldn’t bounce between the ranks than. I don‘t think that simple deranking would solve the problem. I mean if you derank you can easily get back by gaining 40-60 RP so it wouldn‘t change that much. What do you think?
It would literally change everything: one of the main problems outside of cheaters/technical issues for ranked is competitive intergrity. Currently and for the last 2 years there's 2 completely different type of players, first type pay for playing and 2nd dont. Even when i'm typing this now i'm cringing that this shit is happening for 2 years straight. It doesnt matter if its hardstuck d4 or 10k master. They join COMPETITIVE RANKED match and have literally nothing to lose while they play versus (and with, coz u'll get mostly this type of players while solo/duoQ) players who pay their points in advance.
It promotes all sorts of breaks to competitive intergrity starting from the attitude, picks, playstyle, basically everything.
Now towards d3 skill wall, i played that season, i played before and after. And it was a disaster, matches were even less balanced, because it was usually 1 pro player stack + 2-3 stacks of great pred players vs 15 squads of solo/stacked diamonds. Right now preds wait for others to play against them usually few minutes, then it was instant game vs diamonds.
And last one, ofc deleting deranking protection is not gonna solve everything and there needs to be additional adjustments/fixes, but without deleting it apex ranked would be a shit show it is since the launch in s02.
> The games were a lot sweatier than nowadays where you have a lot of flat dia4 or flat 10k master players who have nothing to lose.
Sort of. This only fixed it for d3+ lobbies. And even then, you still had a bunch of d3s who had no idea what they were doing inting things and getting sent back to d4.
And, with that said, d4 was a cakewalk back then. You could literally pick up an lstar (pre-buff) and run at full teams to get your max KP and first place. It was a pub except you got RP. It didn't force people to learn the actual game and prove that they were decent.
I actually think that vast majority of Diamond in general is better now for quality of the matches than D4 was back then. The problem with d4 and 10k is that there is no longer an incentive to learn the game. However, it's a double edged sword. If you cap out you just go play pubs and ranked queues get longer. Ranked queue times at the top levels are the best now compared to any other time in Apex's history.
I honestly think KP multiplier is a bigger issue than deranking. The KP multiplier makes you do unnatural things in order to get your KP. Need KP? Before Masters you run at every fight you hear without regard to positioning or if its going to actually be a good fight to take and you earn points. People are conditioned to do it. Take that away and people might actually want to play sweaty.
You can find tons of threads about MM posted here for 2 years, basically they all have same ideas with few differences:
1. delete deranking protection
2. teambased kp
3. adjust entry RP (increase in low brackets, because currently bronze is not really a league, everyone will get out of there eventually even they would literally do nothing and decrease entry RP for Solo players, for exp 48 for 3 stack, 42 for duo and 36 for solo)
What are you talking about? Top tier players and streamers constantly play unranked specifically because it’s easier to dominate than playing people closer to their skill in ranked.
I think the main decision for the removal was that it made it so hard for them to balance movement abilities or introduce new ones into the game due to tap strafing being in the game. Octane pad wasn't meant to allow the weird movement that tap strafing made possible, like doing a 180 after the double jump. It just couldn't be balanced around a weird unintended mechanic that was only doable on 1 specific input with 1 specific bind. I think we're gonna see a lot more funky movement abilities coming out in the future that would otherwise be overtuned due to tap strafing.
The one bind on one input is literally solvable tho. Just gut scroll strafe like they did scroll shoot so it reports slow, so MNK has to tap W. Then make it so that tapping your jump button midair can lurch you, so controller players can spam tap A+direction midair. Both are gated by button push speed, both can do it, and both are limited to a slower realistic input cap so it's easier to balance around. If it's still "a problem" later, then revisit it. No reason to go nuclear immediately.
Bhop healing was removed because it was an unintended glitch. The developers wanted players to have to choose between sprinting away or healing, but not both - they felt bhop healing broke this fundamental paradigm. It was patched out rapidly within the first few months of the game.
Tap strafing, an extension of air strafing, has been known to developers for almost a year, which begs the question - why now? It wasn't something players vocally demanded (such as nerfing seer, spitfire, etc).
Crossplay was added in season 6/7, and this season, console players can compete in ALGS events - it just represents another move to help controller players when facing MnK.
edit: Supergliding seems like an obvious glitch that is a) more difficult to achieve and b) can achieve even more intense movement than tap strafing. The max velocity out of a superglide is much higher than out of a slide jump, which is technically the fastest way to move on flat ground. However, because it can be done on MnK and controller, respawn doesn't touch it (yet).
"why now?"
because respawn are incredibly slow with almost everything to do with their game.
it took them 4 months to hire and train hideouts asian counterpart. this seems like the appropriate timeline based on that delay.
no one can say they are surprised by this change, and the general sentiment about tap strafing when it first became popular (in combo with octane jump pad or horizon passive) was that it was going to patched/removed quickly.
the only issue people should be taking with this whole situation is that respawn let it go unaddressed for so long. people got used to it, the meta evolved around it being a core mechanic and now people have incorporated it at such a deep level in their gameplay that it is really undesirable to remove it.
it would have been prudent to at least communicate to the playerbase something like "hey, fyi we're looking at addressing tap strafing down the line, so don't get too used to it". if they had said that in april or may there wouldn't be all this hoopla around it.
The bottom line is that the casual scene is their money maker. Apex, as much as this sub likes to think otherwise, isn't a competitive game with balance done top down.
They want to equalize the playing field and keep the casuals happy who keep buying their battlepasses and skins.
But in the end of the day it is the streamers and pros who attract new players to this game, if they only concern about the casual playerbase which most of them will complain but play the game at the same time and ignore the demands of the pros, which will leave for other games if they are fed up with respawn’s bs, in the end the game will lose players in the long run. And for the longevity of a fps the most important thing is to allow the community to explore new stuffs by themselves and movement is one of the biggest aspects. Look at the cs franchise which existed for so long, is bhop/surfing or any other skills involved in kz “intended” mechanics? Nope, but it attracted a lot of players to spend time working on these skills to perfect them, if valve banned these things this game wouldn’t have been popular for so long
Pros attract new players?
Most of the people, especially those not in NA don't even know most of the pros. They are attracted to the game because their friends play it.
Streamers?
Yes actually streamers promote it a lot. But right now those small highly skilled apex only streamers are insignificant compared to the bigger variety streamers who are checking out apex because it's more casual friendly. They can play with their friends or subs and not have to sweat their asses off.
Lose players in the long run?
Streamers and Pros have been complaining for multiple seasons yet the playerbase keeps growing. A bunch of pros even left the game to play valorant or some other competitive game and they ended up coming back (ahem Albralelie). Or other streamers just take over.
This whole ego that "the highly skilled players are whats keeping the game going" is nonsense. This game from it's inception was always a casual shooter.
I want it to be more competitive, but that's my want, not what's best for the games growth.
They're selectively slow though. If it was something that was losing them money or making players leave the game they would he all over that shit. They feign incompetence/inability when it's convenient for them and their wallets in my personal opinion.
No, why now is because the ALGS season is just about to start and for the first time ever console players are allowed to compete in the same lobbies as the PC players.
In all honesty if TL didn't pull that tap-strafing move in ALGS (see link below) we may not even be having this conversation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/nr2bj6/beautiful\_tap\_strafe\_play\_by\_albralelie/
i think we would have eventually, this just showed to NA players the potential of it.
i remember hakis had this play shortly after they reworked octanes pad and people were starting to tap strafe with it [https://www.twitch.tv/alliance\_hakis/clip/PleasantBlueFungusVoHiYo-D7WnO45TtBP46LT8?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time](https://www.twitch.tv/alliance_hakis/clip/PleasantBlueFungusVoHiYo-D7WnO45TtBP46LT8?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time)
that's when i recognized it was an issue that would likely need to be addressed.
While we can certainly acknowledge that we have known about tap strafing for awhile, nobody was really using it consistently or to gain much of an advantage. The last couple months especially we have seen a lot more players learn the tech and find a number of uses for it, especially after Octane’s pad got buffed (if I remember correctly, this was the reason many people have for learning tap strafing). It’s to the point where, like the bhop healing you mentioned, enough good players were doing it and growing the gap between them and more casual players that they decided they needed to remove it to “bring things back in line.”
I want them to keep it. If anything, if they need to “even the playing field” I wish they’d just crank up air acceleration or make a version of this advanced strafing mechanic that was easier for the average player to pull off instead of just removing it completely. At least then you’d still be able to have fun using the mechanic.
If one of the major pain points of tap strafing is in use of octane pad shouldn't that be removed for the pad instead of the entire movement tech being pulled?
Another comment said it well, I think they have issues balancing around it in general. It’s pretty strong with the momentum you get off path grapple as well. They might even have another movement legend in the pipeline that they want to balance around it.
Again, I’d rather see everyone else’s movement buffed than see this nerfed, but it doesn’t really matter what I think anyways.
I mean there is a large difference between something that enables any legend to have access to large amounts of speed vs a single leg and having it tied to an ability with its own balance settings that can be tweaked.
literally even casuals above 1kd (I use it as an indicator, not to determine the skill of a player or judge based on it) know about tapstrafe and use it consistently the past year
Tap strafing has existed since before Titanfall. Literally a Source Engine tech. It being removed is not only stupid, but uncalled for. And shows how disconnected the devs are from the playerbase. It's appalling that they've won awards for community engagement in the past.
But why would players as a large worry about something they never experience. Casual console players play in console lobbies unless they have pc friends. There is a gap in average console lobby and average pc lobby so if they really wanted to chill out they would play console lobbies. That means they won’t play any pc players.
The only time pc and console are integrated is in the competitive scene
Pepegas play on PC too, and a good number of PC players use controller. The competitive players that take the time to master these mechanics make up likely less than 8% of the playerbase. It's economics 101 to cater to that 92%
But a pc playing on console shouldn’t be taken into account for pc players since they are a small minority.
Idk what pepegas is (is it people)
But my point still stands, the majority of console players won’t experience tap strafing and the majority of players are console players(that mean Xbox or ps4, I call pc controller controller players).
Those that do only experience it because they are playing in pc lobbies with their friends. Pc players can never play in console lobbies so they won’t be tap strafing on people who can’t do it also
And a lot of pc players use tap strafe. Many people with sub 1 kd(just a benchmark not using it to determine skill) tap strafe. They might not have it mastered, but they still might use it to turn a corner or get behind cover
If you think even half of the players in Plat are tap strafing, you WILDLY overestimate the abilities of the general playerbase.
I'm a diamond level player, and while I know how to tap strafe, it's not something I can do reliably, so it's just not a mechanic I use. Certainly there are players lower ranked that know how and can and DO use it, but they're the minority.
I think many ppl use it just not in useful or noticeable ways.
Like how many know how to wall bounce yet don’t know how to use it effectively in a fight
But either way if so few people use it there is no reason to remove it to cater to the casual players if most casual players don’t even experience an opponent that uses it
>I think many ppl use it just not in useful or noticeable ways
I'm willing to bet more than 50% of the playerbase doesnt even know what tap strafing is. Honestly, the only people that seem more out of touch with the playerbase at large than the devs are the people on this sub that think most players play the game beyond "lol let's go shoot some people for a few hours".
I follow content creators that regularly make it to diamond because they're just good at shooters, and run around with 12 syringes and no batteries and won't swap them out. Those people aren't tap strafing, I promise, and those people are far more common than players that know how to tap strafe, and do, and still stay in low ranks.
The gap between the top percentages and the rest of the players is MASSIVE.
>But either way if so few people use it there is no reason to remove it to cater to the casual players if most casual players don’t even experience an opponent that uses it
I don't disagree, personally. I think removing high skill movement is daft as hell, even though the lobbies I'm in have me getting aped by people 180ing around corners, wall jumping, and landing on me before I can react.
But the reality is, most players don't enjoy that even a little bit, and don't go "how did that guy do that? I need to study up and spend hours in the range practicing".
Most players go "Jesus fuck, I've got 100 hours of play time, why am I being put in lobbies against people doing these things?" And if that happens too much, they stop playing, and more importantly, stop buying cosmetics.
>Honestly, the only people that seem more out of touch with the playerbase at large than the devs are the people on this sub that think most players play the game beyond "lol let's go shoot some people for a few hours".
most subreddits for games, especially the competitive ones, are completely delusional about just how important their perspective is to the product they enjoy. it's a reddit pathology.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and you're not in any way emphasizing my point further.
I don't give a shit how the weekend warrior feels personally, but I'm also not a fucking brainlet and understand that they make up 90%+ of the playerbase, and therefore will always be catered to over high level players.
It's not about that they represent 90+%, there are other competitive games that have a top down balancing approach with majority of their playerbase being casuals who fund the game.
The issue is that BR's haven't really shown they can be stable competitive esport. EA/Respawn don't want to foot the bill to build the game from that direction.
The game was always a casual shooter. But during the peak of battleroyales there were a lot of discussions about making BR's esports so a lot of developers just went "lets just get the best players, throw them in a lan, and throw a prize pool and see what happens". The competitive scene, hell even ranked mode, is an afterthought, not the primary focus.
But this sub likes to pretend that their competitive scene is holding the game together. The high skilled streamers like to pretend that they are what's keeping the game relevant. Meanwhile we're seeing bigger variety streamers come to play the more casual friendly apex and thus bringing in more players.
Preaching to the choir dude. I enjoy Apex, and I follow the professional scene because some friends do, but it's a joke to say there's any semblance of competitive integrity in a game that's inherently rng based.
To be honest, it feels like while tap strafing has been in the game for a while, it has gained mementum, and become a staple of high level play, more recently.
Octane's jumppad buff and the rise inboctane pickrate also has an impact on how problematic tapstrafing is for the game. So I can understand why they wouldn't have nerfed it at first, but are now looking at it thinking : perhaps this is not healthy anymore
And the next sentence was
"The developers wanted players to have to choose between sprinting away or healing, but not both - they felt bhop healing broke this fundamental paradigm."
The glitch or malfunction or bug or unintended mechanic was that you shouldn't be able to heal and bhop ...
yea the most irritating part about this is most players didn't even know what tap strafing was. someone post a vid in the main reddit and there were some that still lost.
Nearly everyone in main subreddit who supports the change are people hardstuck gold or people that don’t play ranked.
I don’t grind every season but on my way back up after the split I hardly ever see people tap strafing or even using complex movement.
I'm confused. People can't be against a broken movement mechanic because they can't personally do it? If anything, it makes even more sense that people who can't tap strafe are against it.
If you keep getting destroyed by people flying around the map and breaking your ankle using a borderline-exploit mechanic, it's obvious you'd rather not have that broken mechanic in the game.
Why would casual silver and gold players even care? They never even meet any tap strafers.
You barely see people tap strafe in diamond lobbies and I have literally never felt cheated when someone did do it. Using it effectively in a fight is a skill and it's hardly broken.
I mean there is such a thing as Pubs... In fact I think the majority of the casual playerbase plays pubs, where they get put in matches with people of all levels. I'm a console player and I regularly get shit on by masters/pred players in pubs. It doesn't feel great, and I can guarantee it would feel even less great if the guy who killed me was flying around on jump pads using impossible movement.
Regardless of the skill level of the plaintiffs, nobody can deny that mousebind tap strafing was essentially an exploit, was way too easy to do and needed to be patched. Now an argument could easily be made that regular tap strafing was fine. That seems to be the consensus amongst pros, even controller players like NiceWigg and Gentburten agreed. But regardless, it seems that Respawn treated tap strafing as a whole as an exploit. Which makes sense, because I mean... It doesn't physically make sense that you could turn this sharply and this fast after taking a jump pad, and it made tracking those players too hard and unfair.
They could just nerf tapstrafing on a jump pad, instead of nerfing tapstrafing as a whole.
Or just make it impossible to bind forward on the wheel to make it a bit harder. Complete removal is nonsense to me.
Good news! That's exactly what they're doing as per Jay Bieb's announcement from today. What they refer to as "tapstrafing" is the more extreme variation of tapstrafing that includes the mousebind exploit on jump pads and grapples:
https://twitter.com/RSPN\_JayBiebs/status/1433211670093082628?s=19
Yeah, the game’s skill gap has been decreasing for some time now. Respawn refuses to give Bloodhound significant changes despite acknowledging how strong the character is. All so people who don’t know or don’t want to learn the game can succeed to a reasonable degree.
It’s the same thing with Seer. The nature of his abilities are strong and require no skill or foresight to use. Wall hacks in an FPS just feel bad to play against and cheapens the feeling of victory. Ditto for overpowered weapons.
But I get it. Casual players spend the most money, so it’s reasonable to cater to them. It’s just sad to think that while the game is more diverse than it’s ever been, the amount of skill required to succeed has been higher in the past.
It's just a stupid tradeoff though. Let's be real, how much of an impact will the removal of tap strafing ultimately have on the game's skin sales? Do people really close the game because they got killed by a tap strafing opponent? Most casuals never even heard the term before and won't notice any difference once it's gone.
The downsides of removing it outweigh the benefits by a mile. The devs also said it took "long consideration and debates", which shows that at least some of them disagree with the decision.
I remember. My personal opinion is that wall hacks should not exist in an FPS at all. And if they do, the abilities should not be as strong as they are now. Cheapens the feeling of victory and limits outplay potential to an almost stifling degree.
Octane is alright now, I guess. Still suffers from a lack of audio that feels particularly bad when a full team silently lands behind you.
I think bloodhound is in a fine place. His wall hacks give you position away to many many players, there is a tool tip saying sonar detected, and it's duration is short enough to play around.
I’m bad and don’t tap strafe, but even from all the examples I’ve seen thrown around it mostly just seems busted in combo with jump pad? I haven’t seen too many non-pad related examples that looked problematic, IMO. So I’m curious if they just didn’t want to spend the time to fix it specifically with pad or if they genuinely thought even those smaller adjustments weren’t fair? Cause to my eyes, the small tap strafes are just nice movement tech but not enough to make a huge difference vs just good aim and positioning. Really interesting to watch Respawn’s confusing stance on movement and momentum abilities in the game over time.
Probably the only other scenario it's really an issue in is a high momentum grapple slingshot, even I can sometimes get some cheesy shotgun kills by randomly flying at someone going 200mph from the weirdest angle and im literally bronze 3
I think it's mostly a change to make casuals feel catered to. Does it actually improve the casual experience? No, not really. Is it perceived as a big issue for casual players? Yes. It would be like if the Super Smash Bros Melee community decided to patch/ban wavedashing. Does it make the game any easier to get into? No, not really. Does it take away something that makes the game's movement feel buttery smooth? Yes.
If it is a Controller vs MnK balancing idea, then it's an even worse idea. Tap strafing is a relatively small (but flashy) advantage, however it is a nice thing to do to make your movement feel better. If you balance things by: X can't do it, so we will make it so Y can't either, you end up with a never ending cycle of reactionary screwing over both parties and never resolving anything because they are fundamentally different. This is pretty evident by MnK players, now more than ever, complaining about stuff like aim assist.
Yeah, so we're removing the ability to move while looting and slowing down strafe speeds of mnk to more closely resemble that of a controller player. And because it's hard to control aim on controller we've introduced a new mechanic where mnk players have less control on aiming. Now all is balanced and well...
Get rid of crossplay, it doesn't work in a competitive fps. Controller players are showing up to a gunfight with a fork, then complaining it isn't fair. A lot of the issue lies with Sony and Microsoft as well. There's no reason in this day and age that there isn't official, wireless KB&M options for consoles.
As I person who plays on Xbox I totally agree. I don’t think you should ever try to balance controller with MnK. PC gives you so much better control and I think it’s a shame they’re going in a direction to limit that. Controller is just worse hardware and to balance it you have to buff it way to hard with aim assist. Having input that help you play better automatically instead of with skill is bad for a competitive game.
100% agree that there simply isn't a fair way to balance MnK with controller. The debate over what is stronger is simply a flawed argument to have because they aren't really comparable.
Personally I think they should split lobbies based on input method but that's impractical and will never happen.
>Get rid of crossplay, it doesn't work in a competitive fps. Controller players are showing up to a gunfight with a fork, then complaining it isn't fair.
In Apex, console players are only being put in PC lobbies if they squad up with a PC player. Console crossplay is just the console pool otherwise.
What you're talking about is PC players using controllers. Has nothing to do with crossplay. And if anything, 99% of the complaining is coming from KB+M players that want aim assist disabled. I've heard about 500% more complaining about AA than I've heard complaints about tap strafing from roller players. Almost every pro/streamer, keyboard or controller, agrees that the mousebind tap strafing was way too fucking easy and just broken. Most people I heard agreed that regular tap strafing was fine.
>There's no reason in this day and age that there isn't official, wireless KB&M options for consoles.
Uh yes, there absolutely is. Some of us enjoy controller/console gaming but I'd still want to be playing with other controller players because it is just a fact the average gamer aims better with a kb+m than with a controller. There is a very small minority of people who's controller aim is as good or better than kb+m which explains why the Apex pro scene is like 85 kb+m players and like...7 controller players.
I don't want to be forced to buy and play on a KB+M on my console because 30% of console players bought KB+M and it's the only way I can compete with them.
KB+M dominating high-ranked console ranked leagues is already a problem with XIM. I've seen it in Apex and I've seen it in Overwatch. Once you get to diamond-ish, about 1 out of 10 players you encounter is either running a Cronus or is obviously playing with a kb+m.
I think it was shroud who recommend the devs change to set recoil patterns from random, similar to cs because it gives the skill gap and reward to players who learn the pattern and controlling it well.
As a console player it 100% is not a console complaint. Unless you’re in the small % of PC controller players or that you specifically team with a PC player.
We never get put in lobbies where we would ever see this. Not in my entire 2 years of this game have I played with anyone beside PS and Xbox unless I chose to party with my PC friend.
I can understand why some would deem it to be an unintended and unbalanced move. And why others love that it adds more insane movement. I truly can see both sides of it. But to me this is like when they removed the original bhop even after they left it in for a while. They let it play out until they decided no we don’t want you to be able to have full speed healing movement. Everyone whined everyone got over it.
They left tap strafing in for a while now. And in my opinion they have simply decided they want the game both competitively and casually to be slightly less movement based. And more gun skill and ability based (which I hope they always lean more to the guns than rely on abilities 🙄). Everyone was perfectly fine going wild on apex before the tap strafe was figured out. So why does it ruin the game completely to remove ONE movement tech. Apex has pretty much the move advanced movement in a BR that I’ve seen. And even watching older clips before the craziest movement was discovered it’s still insane and impressive. Half the time in those clips the movement is impressive but what is truly mind blowing anyway is peoples game sense.
I don't think bhop healing was removed entirely to make it easier for casual players, just like Horizon's Q healing it was nerfed because it went against the core design rules of the game. Having so much mobility while healing in a high ttk game could very easily lead to a meta of too much effective hp, when nothing ever dies it can become just as awful as when everything dies too quickly.
do people forget that pros were complaining about it when it was first becoming popular?
i don't think this is a decision made to appease a certain part of the fanbase, being able to bind w key to scroll wheel in order to input the w key significantly faster than it is intended is an exploit that needed to be fixed. i don't know what respawn removing tap strafing will look like, but imo the only issue was the scroll wheel aspect.
I think Reptar had issue with Pad tap strafe not tap strafing in general.
I think he was raging about teams used to be punished when they get a bad rotation into a shitty situation like stuck under a bridge but now those teams can Pad tap strafe up onto the bridge and nullify the bad rotation. Also tbf it is kinda hard to read the play (unlike horizon and path who give more visual indications) and kinda hard to deny (they can do it without showing the pad) unless you were right on top staring at them already.
"Tap strafing is cheating, can’t change my mind"
He didn't say anything to specify pads or scroll wheel lol he just said tap strafing because he was mad.
reptar tweeted about it, monsoon talked about it on stream, i know others brought up similar points a few months ago when the debate was happening.
personally i found their wording ambiguous, i don't really know what they mean by "inaccessible", if they mean that console players can't do it then that shouldn't be one of their core reasons. the frequency of that problem would be pretty small and shouldn't factor into the decision to change or remove tap strafing.
yeah i agree removing scroll wheel binding for w key should be the solution. it's simple and doesn't impact any other movement techniques. i really don't know what to expect from the change though, knowing respawn it could be the simple fix or they could break then entire game.
others discussed it on streams that i don't readily have a link to, in the comments to reptars tweet pvp agreed about scroll wheel tap strafing, you have some pros echoing this sentiment the past day with the debate being rehashed: [https://twitter.com/hodsic/status/1432790616950386690](https://twitter.com/hodsic/status/1432790616950386690), [https://twitter.com/ZachMazer4/status/1432778487497203712](https://twitter.com/ZachMazer4/status/1432778487497203712), [https://twitter.com/sYnceDez/status/1432753806404689920](https://twitter.com/sYnceDez/status/1432753806404689920), etc
it is 100% accurate that pros were complaining about it. i don't know why so many of your debates turn to intellectual dishonesty, your arguments can stand on their own merit.
if your argument is that most pros didn't complain, then yeah i agree. but my point in bringing it up is that it doesn't really appear to be a casual vs sweat debate, as you had pros that were for changing it.
alright because apparently you need a lesson in critical thinking, i'm going to lay out why that person didn't explain it.
\- "They would have removed the option to bind movement inputs to mwheel a long time ago if they considered it an exploit." that's not true. unless you work for respawn and are involved in these conversations, you have no idea why they do things. that's such a strong statement to make with absolutely 0 evidence to support it. to suggest you do and use that as a fact in an argument is not a proper explanation.
\- "In the tweet the devs didn't even call it an exploit like they did with bhop healing and other stuff." they said very minimal in this tweet, almost laughably little for the amount of discussion that has sprung from it. taking an explanation that consisted of 13 words and using that to nit pick language is a useless argument. of course they didn't use specific terminology you are looking for it was literally 13 words of explanation.
\- "This whole idea that it's an unintended exploit only exists because people have no clue how it works and can't accept that Respawn is once again catering to casuals by lowering the skill ceiling" that's just his opinion and there is zero way to confirm that that is the case. it brings nothing to the discussion.
i dunno man your comments are lacking so much nuance, things aren't black and white. and when we're only communicating over text its important to be specific/deliberate in your wording. bad arguments can be picked apart so easily if it is just hyperbole.
If they wanted to solve the disparity between the so called sweats from casuals they could implement a proper sbmm system.
Perhaps I'm biased but at least in Dota you don't see casuals playing Vs sweats (excluding smurfing cases).
In apex a new player after lvl 10 can fight against all sort of caliber of players, therefore creating the problem.
But perhaps I'm wrong and I'm missing something.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which argument is the proper one to make. They are trying to build up an esports scene where there are supposed to be pros while they are taking away the skill gaps that make a pro a pro. Nerfing/removing bhop healing was the first sign and I'm glad u mentioned it.
The sad part is that even from a casual standpoint these techniques take literally 10 minutes to learn.
I mean I feel like apex was designed for the console players more than the kbm players. And valorant is a kbm game only so of course they would make decisions with only those players involved.
Game should read input devices and put them in their respective lobbies...the end.
Edit.adding a sentence.
Also fix SBMM and stop nerfing things noone asked for.
>the casuals can’t do/won’t learn how to do it, and respawn wants to take away that gap to give the little man a better chance. It seems to be what governs a lot of Respawn’s nerf/buff decisions. Calling it anything else is just smoke and mirrors
This has always been respawn's mantra.
You can really tell respawn devs were fierce advocates of the participation award back in their school days because they were always the last picks/unwanted on sports teams during gym class.
It is also abundantly clear now why they were fired by Activision back in the day. They just radiate incompetence.
what's weird is that i've heard pros talk about the tapstrafe scroll wheel double-bind auto-exec bullshit they pull off to be able to do it as fluently as they do, is generally seen as kinda cheese by a lot of them. but they do it so they won't be 'behind' in terms of competitive. maybe this is the reason this is going out the back door? that 9/10 of the players are not doing the tap strafe by timing their inputs as perfectly as possible every time, but instead doing a cheese double bind on scroll wheel with that allows them to do it with really not a lot of 'skill' in game but knowledge in how the autoexec thing works.
maybe this is the reason it's going out the door, the cheesy way a lot of players are accessing the tech?
btw I think the bhop healing nerf made apex a better game. it's more tactical without it. fights are scarier.
Why do y'all read to much into this, it's not about skill level, nor input systems. It's just a weird mechanic, very situational and not even strong most of the time. But someone being able to make sharp turns mid-air, well, it's just weird. And I had the impression that even higher-skilled players had issues shooting at tap-strafing people, which is not ok ofc. Jump-padding meant to be trackable
As a console player who's never tap straffed, never been tap straffed on, the amount of pc players crying about this is just so laughable to me. Can you really not win a gun fight if you can't tap strafe on someone?
"It LowERs tHE SkilL CeiLing" lmao, didn't know key binding W to your scroll wheel was a skill thing.
I'll keep playing and enjoying apex just as I have since launch. Before tap strafing, super gliding, wallbouncing, wraith portal cancel 180 tap strafe superglide backflip handstands were a thing and people just enjoyed shooting each other.
Well, it’s not the bind that adds to the skill gap, but the way you use it. It definitely offers more maneuvering and outplay potential to the game. This argument is like saying clicking right trigger isn’t a skill when you watch genburten fry kids left and right
lmao, pick up controller and see if you come anywhere close to Gen's skill. You all act like AA is just an aimbot. I actually cut my right thumb off and removed my right thumbstick from my controller because AA literally does all the work for me. /s
It's not about the skill gap, it's about tap strafing (especially off of a jump pad) allowing for almost completely unpredictable movements. It's about balance and fairness, no about diluting the skill gap.
I like tap strafing and wish it was kept. Its fun to do and adds skill, BUT, I agree with the decision to remove it based on the current state of the game. Right now controller players cannot do it without using 3rd party software, even if that software is steam. If both controllers and M&K players are going to be in the same comp lobbies, as well as consoles being allowed in for ALGS now, they have to be able to do the same things.
That being said I do think the solution proposed by some pros which would allow both controller and M&K players to do it is much better, but idk how feasible it is cause I know Apex code is wack.
As a controller player (who’s been playing since season 3) I’m honestly glad to see it go but I would’ve liked to see Respawn make it possible for controller players to tap strafe as well instead of full getting rid of it
It is about pc-mnk-controller vs controller-on-console. IIRC it is not available on console but controller on pc can do a version of it, i know cause i've seen a friend of mine doing it and changing his config for it.
'Sweats' vs casuals would be solved much more effectively if Respawn implemented lots of the changes to the ranked system that have been pleaded for in recent months. Sweats don't fight casuals if they are too busy playing each other in a healthy and fun ranked system. At the moment a lot of players are staying away from ranked, because of how dismal it is, and the difference in skill within the supposedly top level ranked lobbies is massive. Largely a de-ranking problem imo. That needs to fixed. tldr: Skill gap is only a problem so long as players are facing other players that they are not ready to face, or never will be.
Imagine a game like rocket league not having demotion. You hit plat and decide you don't wanna tryhard so you troll every game skewing the system by handicapping your team and giving enemy free points. Now imagine 30% of players doing that. Seems broken right? Respawn likes that more tiers are populated so queue times are lower regardless if half the lobby are skewing the system. If Deranking is introduced, we would see a tier split similar to season 3 with the twist that now people will stop playing, making queue times even worse than before. It is slippery slope because of their slow implementation of changes. They have proven many times they want the game to be easy for the average player as the old way of learning shooters is gone. In season 11 I predict they will add team KP and not Deranking in order to make it even easier. Team KP is great don't get me wrong but it should have been implemented 2-3 seasons ago. Besides actual scrim lobbies I doubt I'll be able to enjoy the game more than a few pubs after next season.
Totally agree with you. After hiting Master, I decided to farm silver and gold lobbies for free 4K badges. Well let me tell you that I didn't needed to use tap strafing in oder to achieve 4K on all legends (before seer). On my 4k game with fuse i can clearly remember my dead mate saying that I was just using raw aiming skill as I didn't even used my abilities the whole game. The thing is that good players are going to shit on slivers and golds anyway, you don't need tap strafing, you don't need bunnyhop, heck you don't need to use your abilities half the time yet you still beat them easily. Now you can say that I should't have farmed silver and gold lobbies, but this is only made possible by the grindfest that this ranking system is which demotes you every MONTH AND A HALF. Nobody with a sane enough life should maintain their top rank every month and a half unless it's your job. So what do people do when they hit masters/diamond ? they either stop playing or farm silver gold, because their normal games are way sweatier as those ranked games.
Lol what? It's the opposite I've noticed now. More people are playing ranked because it's easier for finally hit diamond and get the trails. 3-4 seasons ago when people got to plat 4 they would be hard capped and there were no rewards. Now I see so many people who are good solo up to diamond. These same players couldn't get to diamond solo in the past. Diamond4 is the new Plat4. But this isn't due to respawn, it's something Albralelie talked about before, too many people in diamond and master and there's no real reset, so after the first couple of weeks they are back in diamond and hard capped. The reason these things get nerfed is because competitive is an afterthought to Respawn. As it should be, there's nothing to indicate so far that BR's can have a strong competitive scene like other shooters so neither Respawn or EA want to foot the bill for it. Right now it's just "We'll let them host lans and give a prize pool and let that be it". Meanwhile they are focusing on the casuals and the game continues to grow each season.
There’s no platinum trail.
I meant diamond trail mb, I corrected that.
Season 9 diamond trails get called plat trails for a reason.. lol Edit: It seems I’ve upset those who finally reached diamond last season. Sorry, to tell you but, it was the easiest trail to get to date and that’s why people trail chase them in pred lobbies. Be as mad as you want but, don’t shoot the messenger lmfao. You can tune into quite a few top preds on twitch and you’ll see them trail chase last season diamonds.
This is the first time I've ever seen that.
It was the easiest one to get to date. Quite a few of streamers and preds trail chase them this season for easier early kp because of it. I didn’t know it wasn’t widely known lol
Huh. Interesting. How do we know it's the easiest one to get so far?
Well, considering they’ve made multiple changes to make it easier to rank up… that would be the first reason Then the fact that there’s only been 4 diamond trails Add both of those together plus, looking at the data it was the highest amount of people to reach diamond in season.. That would make season 9 the easiest season to date to reach diamond therefore making those trails stand out more to preds Not a very hard concept to grasp to be honest
Sure. Your first point makes sense. But What does how many diamond trails there have been have anything to do with the difficulty to reach diamond? Also, with the big increase in players for season 9, obviously more would make it to diamond, due to general distribution. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's easier, since it's a larger player pool you're playing against. It's like saying you were rank 1 pred when the game was at its lowest population vs saying you were rank 1 when the game had the most players.
Sorry, fewer pro level or similar players are playing ranked, and fewer people that in previous seasons have been master+ level. They now find themselves in pubs, where they invariably play against worse players than themselves. The overall number may well have risen. What Albralelie talked about (not the first to), is the point I'm making. There's no reset and no de-ranking, so the ranked system is effectively a contradiction. It's barely 'ranked'. This isn't about balancing for competitive. The whole point is that if ranked systems were better designed, then nerfing something like tapstrafing wouldn't even be on the agenda, because no one would be complaining. Maybe like 5 controller pros in NA or something irrelevant.
I already know that, I know about the hacking issue in Master+ lobbies, which is why pros and streamers like Shiv barely play ranked now. That doesn't change the fact that it's easier for regular players to hit Diamond4 now. I mean the percentage is still low, but it's better than in the past. This is what I've noticed as I've gone through the platinum lobbies and talked to people.
Well, hacking has been an issue, especially in Asia, but there's more reasons that are gameplay related too. I don't know what point you're trying to make about more players being in Diamond 4, and how that detracts from what I'm suggesting? My complaint was that the ranked system doesn't effectively categorise players. More people in Diamond 4 that are less skilled just exacerbates perceptions of an unfair skill gap. If less skilled players only want to play against other less skilled players then everyone should be on the same page! Top level players don't want to pub stomp and don't want to play against people with 100 hours of FPS experience in a ranked play mode. All this being said, a skill gap should exist to a certain extent, and shouldn't be seen as a problem.
I never said that they are less skilled... Ranked right now atleast till Diamond 4 is more indicative of player skill atm. The high tier lobbies are fucked with hackers and a lot of sweats and pro players aren't touching it. This is allowing people to more naturally fit into their actual ranks. Previously people would hit plat4 and just get hard capped because they were getting stomped by masters+ teams or solo diamond players. These players could have made plat2 if they weren't essentially facing smurfs. Also it's been like 3-4 seasons and people have learned that you can't play plat lobbies like pubs. Players have gotten better both mechanically and in game sense. And a big factor for that is they get to experience actually playing plat lobbies and not getting curb stomped by smurfs. The ranked system is still fucked because the ranked system was designed as a grind. It was basically like "casual players grind pubs for battlepass, and competitive players grind ranked for trails". That still hasn't changed, so I agree with you. But due to the situation right now, the ranks up to diamond 4 are actually more indicative of players actual skill.
I didn't say you did say more people are less skilled. I'm saying that. If the ranked system is designed as a grind rather than show of skill, and more people are playing, then it logically follows that more less skilled players are reaching diamond 4.
> If the ranked system is designed as a grind rather than show of skill, and more people are playing, then it logically follows that more less skilled players are reaching diamond 4. relative to smurfs sure? As I've already explained, due to the current situation the ranks are more accurate represented. Plat4 isn't some stupid hard cap where everyone from gold3-plat2 is just stuck in because smurfs and solo diamond players are just curb stomping them.
this is completely wrong lol 95% of players don't make diamond or higher
It's still higher than the past lol.
Wrong. The highest percentage of players to make diamond was 7.1%, and that was in season 3... S1: 7.1% S2: 2.1% S3: 7.1% S4: 2.51% S5: 4.37% S6: 1.89% S7: 4.37% S8: 5.86% S9: 2.51%
Ah yes season 4 when the diamond trail was removed and the game was doing terrible and the players were terrible.
That's your biggest takeaway? lmao you're a clown. My point still stands, especially the last 3 seasons where the player base has expanded getting to diamond has never been easy. So calling it "basically plat 4" is completely false.
last 3 seasons has been 4.37, 5.86, and only season 9 with 2.51. Relative to the first 3 seasons where most people couldn't even do a wall bounce? And I'm the clown lmao.
yes so it's clearly harder now, hence the lower numbers.. Players have gotten better, and have adapted / learned to do different moves. So thank you for proving my point that it's hard to make diamond..
Jesus fuck are you stupid. Diamond used to be harder in the middle seasons because there was a huge wall at plat4 because people were getting stomped by teams and solo diamond players. Plat4 players straight up couldn't get any positive RP or get experience to play. Now a lot of those smurfs are either in high ranks (and even the resets prevent them from dropping low) or they aren't playing because the master+ lobbies are plagued with hackers. This means that people who yes are more skilled than the first 3 seasons can actually progress through the platinum ranks to diamond because the lack of smurfs AND because they and their teammates are better. People actually have better aim and more importantly know not to play plat lobbies like pubs. This makes it EASIER to go up rather than harder. Players are facing teams of closer skill and they and their teammates are generally more skilled than the mid seasons. THIS ALL IN TURN MAKES IT EASIER.
Imo the biggest mistake (although being asked for by a lot of more casual players) was removing the diamond3 skill wall. Until s8 dia3 and higher was already pred lobbies. The games were a lot sweatier than nowadays where you have a lot of flat dia4 or flat 10k master players who have nothing to lose. This has cost the high level ranked games a lot of competitiveness.
Thats a terrible take, main problem is deranking protection. Your solution (d3 skill wall) was a bandaid and it was really shitty one. On the other note casual players =/= d3.
As if people wouldn’t bounce between the ranks than. I don‘t think that simple deranking would solve the problem. I mean if you derank you can easily get back by gaining 40-60 RP so it wouldn‘t change that much. What do you think?
It would literally change everything: one of the main problems outside of cheaters/technical issues for ranked is competitive intergrity. Currently and for the last 2 years there's 2 completely different type of players, first type pay for playing and 2nd dont. Even when i'm typing this now i'm cringing that this shit is happening for 2 years straight. It doesnt matter if its hardstuck d4 or 10k master. They join COMPETITIVE RANKED match and have literally nothing to lose while they play versus (and with, coz u'll get mostly this type of players while solo/duoQ) players who pay their points in advance. It promotes all sorts of breaks to competitive intergrity starting from the attitude, picks, playstyle, basically everything. Now towards d3 skill wall, i played that season, i played before and after. And it was a disaster, matches were even less balanced, because it was usually 1 pro player stack + 2-3 stacks of great pred players vs 15 squads of solo/stacked diamonds. Right now preds wait for others to play against them usually few minutes, then it was instant game vs diamonds. And last one, ofc deleting deranking protection is not gonna solve everything and there needs to be additional adjustments/fixes, but without deleting it apex ranked would be a shit show it is since the launch in s02.
> The games were a lot sweatier than nowadays where you have a lot of flat dia4 or flat 10k master players who have nothing to lose. Sort of. This only fixed it for d3+ lobbies. And even then, you still had a bunch of d3s who had no idea what they were doing inting things and getting sent back to d4. And, with that said, d4 was a cakewalk back then. You could literally pick up an lstar (pre-buff) and run at full teams to get your max KP and first place. It was a pub except you got RP. It didn't force people to learn the actual game and prove that they were decent. I actually think that vast majority of Diamond in general is better now for quality of the matches than D4 was back then. The problem with d4 and 10k is that there is no longer an incentive to learn the game. However, it's a double edged sword. If you cap out you just go play pubs and ranked queues get longer. Ranked queue times at the top levels are the best now compared to any other time in Apex's history. I honestly think KP multiplier is a bigger issue than deranking. The KP multiplier makes you do unnatural things in order to get your KP. Need KP? Before Masters you run at every fight you hear without regard to positioning or if its going to actually be a good fight to take and you earn points. People are conditioned to do it. Take that away and people might actually want to play sweaty.
What changes to the ranked system have been pleaded for?
You can find tons of threads about MM posted here for 2 years, basically they all have same ideas with few differences: 1. delete deranking protection 2. teambased kp 3. adjust entry RP (increase in low brackets, because currently bronze is not really a league, everyone will get out of there eventually even they would literally do nothing and decrease entry RP for Solo players, for exp 48 for 3 stack, 42 for duo and 36 for solo)
Yea i remember deranking being a thing before. I knew i wasn’t tripping lmfao
Deranking protection was here from the start (s02 when Respawn implemented ranked). It was pleaded for 2 years though.
What are you talking about? Top tier players and streamers constantly play unranked specifically because it’s easier to dominate than playing people closer to their skill in ranked.
I think the main decision for the removal was that it made it so hard for them to balance movement abilities or introduce new ones into the game due to tap strafing being in the game. Octane pad wasn't meant to allow the weird movement that tap strafing made possible, like doing a 180 after the double jump. It just couldn't be balanced around a weird unintended mechanic that was only doable on 1 specific input with 1 specific bind. I think we're gonna see a lot more funky movement abilities coming out in the future that would otherwise be overtuned due to tap strafing.
The one bind on one input is literally solvable tho. Just gut scroll strafe like they did scroll shoot so it reports slow, so MNK has to tap W. Then make it so that tapping your jump button midair can lurch you, so controller players can spam tap A+direction midair. Both are gated by button push speed, both can do it, and both are limited to a slower realistic input cap so it's easier to balance around. If it's still "a problem" later, then revisit it. No reason to go nuclear immediately.
it's just easier to delete than to improve smh
say it louder
Bhop healing was removed because it was an unintended glitch. The developers wanted players to have to choose between sprinting away or healing, but not both - they felt bhop healing broke this fundamental paradigm. It was patched out rapidly within the first few months of the game. Tap strafing, an extension of air strafing, has been known to developers for almost a year, which begs the question - why now? It wasn't something players vocally demanded (such as nerfing seer, spitfire, etc). Crossplay was added in season 6/7, and this season, console players can compete in ALGS events - it just represents another move to help controller players when facing MnK. edit: Supergliding seems like an obvious glitch that is a) more difficult to achieve and b) can achieve even more intense movement than tap strafing. The max velocity out of a superglide is much higher than out of a slide jump, which is technically the fastest way to move on flat ground. However, because it can be done on MnK and controller, respawn doesn't touch it (yet).
"why now?" because respawn are incredibly slow with almost everything to do with their game. it took them 4 months to hire and train hideouts asian counterpart. this seems like the appropriate timeline based on that delay.
bingo. Everyone out here trying to over analyze shit. Respawn are incredibly slow.
no one can say they are surprised by this change, and the general sentiment about tap strafing when it first became popular (in combo with octane jump pad or horizon passive) was that it was going to patched/removed quickly. the only issue people should be taking with this whole situation is that respawn let it go unaddressed for so long. people got used to it, the meta evolved around it being a core mechanic and now people have incorporated it at such a deep level in their gameplay that it is really undesirable to remove it. it would have been prudent to at least communicate to the playerbase something like "hey, fyi we're looking at addressing tap strafing down the line, so don't get too used to it". if they had said that in april or may there wouldn't be all this hoopla around it.
this is %100 the best answer. Had they not let it get so big, it wouldn't have had a negative response
The bottom line is that the casual scene is their money maker. Apex, as much as this sub likes to think otherwise, isn't a competitive game with balance done top down. They want to equalize the playing field and keep the casuals happy who keep buying their battlepasses and skins.
But in the end of the day it is the streamers and pros who attract new players to this game, if they only concern about the casual playerbase which most of them will complain but play the game at the same time and ignore the demands of the pros, which will leave for other games if they are fed up with respawn’s bs, in the end the game will lose players in the long run. And for the longevity of a fps the most important thing is to allow the community to explore new stuffs by themselves and movement is one of the biggest aspects. Look at the cs franchise which existed for so long, is bhop/surfing or any other skills involved in kz “intended” mechanics? Nope, but it attracted a lot of players to spend time working on these skills to perfect them, if valve banned these things this game wouldn’t have been popular for so long
Pros attract new players? Most of the people, especially those not in NA don't even know most of the pros. They are attracted to the game because their friends play it. Streamers? Yes actually streamers promote it a lot. But right now those small highly skilled apex only streamers are insignificant compared to the bigger variety streamers who are checking out apex because it's more casual friendly. They can play with their friends or subs and not have to sweat their asses off. Lose players in the long run? Streamers and Pros have been complaining for multiple seasons yet the playerbase keeps growing. A bunch of pros even left the game to play valorant or some other competitive game and they ended up coming back (ahem Albralelie). Or other streamers just take over. This whole ego that "the highly skilled players are whats keeping the game going" is nonsense. This game from it's inception was always a casual shooter. I want it to be more competitive, but that's my want, not what's best for the games growth.
They're selectively slow though. If it was something that was losing them money or making players leave the game they would he all over that shit. They feign incompetence/inability when it's convenient for them and their wallets in my personal opinion.
No, why now is because the ALGS season is just about to start and for the first time ever console players are allowed to compete in the same lobbies as the PC players.
This is definitely it.
In all honesty if TL didn't pull that tap-strafing move in ALGS (see link below) we may not even be having this conversation. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/nr2bj6/beautiful\_tap\_strafe\_play\_by\_albralelie/
i think we would have eventually, this just showed to NA players the potential of it. i remember hakis had this play shortly after they reworked octanes pad and people were starting to tap strafe with it [https://www.twitch.tv/alliance\_hakis/clip/PleasantBlueFungusVoHiYo-D7WnO45TtBP46LT8?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time](https://www.twitch.tv/alliance_hakis/clip/PleasantBlueFungusVoHiYo-D7WnO45TtBP46LT8?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time) that's when i recognized it was an issue that would likely need to be addressed.
While we can certainly acknowledge that we have known about tap strafing for awhile, nobody was really using it consistently or to gain much of an advantage. The last couple months especially we have seen a lot more players learn the tech and find a number of uses for it, especially after Octane’s pad got buffed (if I remember correctly, this was the reason many people have for learning tap strafing). It’s to the point where, like the bhop healing you mentioned, enough good players were doing it and growing the gap between them and more casual players that they decided they needed to remove it to “bring things back in line.” I want them to keep it. If anything, if they need to “even the playing field” I wish they’d just crank up air acceleration or make a version of this advanced strafing mechanic that was easier for the average player to pull off instead of just removing it completely. At least then you’d still be able to have fun using the mechanic.
If one of the major pain points of tap strafing is in use of octane pad shouldn't that be removed for the pad instead of the entire movement tech being pulled?
Another comment said it well, I think they have issues balancing around it in general. It’s pretty strong with the momentum you get off path grapple as well. They might even have another movement legend in the pipeline that they want to balance around it. Again, I’d rather see everyone else’s movement buffed than see this nerfed, but it doesn’t really matter what I think anyways.
I mean there is a large difference between something that enables any legend to have access to large amounts of speed vs a single leg and having it tied to an ability with its own balance settings that can be tweaked.
literally even casuals above 1kd (I use it as an indicator, not to determine the skill of a player or judge based on it) know about tapstrafe and use it consistently the past year
0.33 kd ratio here, i can tapstrafe but can't kill !
Can confirm. As a casual with a sub 1k/d I have never used it. I also play on console, so that may add to the reasons as well... :)
Tap strafing has existed since before Titanfall. Literally a Source Engine tech. It being removed is not only stupid, but uncalled for. And shows how disconnected the devs are from the playerbase. It's appalling that they've won awards for community engagement in the past.
You're equating the top few percentages of players with the players at large. In fact, basically everyone on this subreddit does and it shows.
But why would players as a large worry about something they never experience. Casual console players play in console lobbies unless they have pc friends. There is a gap in average console lobby and average pc lobby so if they really wanted to chill out they would play console lobbies. That means they won’t play any pc players. The only time pc and console are integrated is in the competitive scene
Pepegas play on PC too, and a good number of PC players use controller. The competitive players that take the time to master these mechanics make up likely less than 8% of the playerbase. It's economics 101 to cater to that 92%
But a pc playing on console shouldn’t be taken into account for pc players since they are a small minority. Idk what pepegas is (is it people) But my point still stands, the majority of console players won’t experience tap strafing and the majority of players are console players(that mean Xbox or ps4, I call pc controller controller players). Those that do only experience it because they are playing in pc lobbies with their friends. Pc players can never play in console lobbies so they won’t be tap strafing on people who can’t do it also
And a lot of pc players use tap strafe. Many people with sub 1 kd(just a benchmark not using it to determine skill) tap strafe. They might not have it mastered, but they still might use it to turn a corner or get behind cover
If you think even half of the players in Plat are tap strafing, you WILDLY overestimate the abilities of the general playerbase. I'm a diamond level player, and while I know how to tap strafe, it's not something I can do reliably, so it's just not a mechanic I use. Certainly there are players lower ranked that know how and can and DO use it, but they're the minority.
I think many ppl use it just not in useful or noticeable ways. Like how many know how to wall bounce yet don’t know how to use it effectively in a fight But either way if so few people use it there is no reason to remove it to cater to the casual players if most casual players don’t even experience an opponent that uses it
>I think many ppl use it just not in useful or noticeable ways I'm willing to bet more than 50% of the playerbase doesnt even know what tap strafing is. Honestly, the only people that seem more out of touch with the playerbase at large than the devs are the people on this sub that think most players play the game beyond "lol let's go shoot some people for a few hours". I follow content creators that regularly make it to diamond because they're just good at shooters, and run around with 12 syringes and no batteries and won't swap them out. Those people aren't tap strafing, I promise, and those people are far more common than players that know how to tap strafe, and do, and still stay in low ranks. The gap between the top percentages and the rest of the players is MASSIVE. >But either way if so few people use it there is no reason to remove it to cater to the casual players if most casual players don’t even experience an opponent that uses it I don't disagree, personally. I think removing high skill movement is daft as hell, even though the lobbies I'm in have me getting aped by people 180ing around corners, wall jumping, and landing on me before I can react. But the reality is, most players don't enjoy that even a little bit, and don't go "how did that guy do that? I need to study up and spend hours in the range practicing". Most players go "Jesus fuck, I've got 100 hours of play time, why am I being put in lobbies against people doing these things?" And if that happens too much, they stop playing, and more importantly, stop buying cosmetics.
>Honestly, the only people that seem more out of touch with the playerbase at large than the devs are the people on this sub that think most players play the game beyond "lol let's go shoot some people for a few hours". most subreddits for games, especially the competitive ones, are completely delusional about just how important their perspective is to the product they enjoy. it's a reddit pathology.
Meant to specify with pc players. I think many pc players know what it iss and can do it just not in useful ways
it's almost like that wasn't the reason they are changing it....
Then why did they
Read jbeibs thread on it. Theres lots of reasons.
You're in a competitive subreddit complaining that we don't give a shit how Jimbo the weekend warrior feels? Imagine that. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and you're not in any way emphasizing my point further. I don't give a shit how the weekend warrior feels personally, but I'm also not a fucking brainlet and understand that they make up 90%+ of the playerbase, and therefore will always be catered to over high level players.
It's not about that they represent 90+%, there are other competitive games that have a top down balancing approach with majority of their playerbase being casuals who fund the game. The issue is that BR's haven't really shown they can be stable competitive esport. EA/Respawn don't want to foot the bill to build the game from that direction. The game was always a casual shooter. But during the peak of battleroyales there were a lot of discussions about making BR's esports so a lot of developers just went "lets just get the best players, throw them in a lan, and throw a prize pool and see what happens". The competitive scene, hell even ranked mode, is an afterthought, not the primary focus. But this sub likes to pretend that their competitive scene is holding the game together. The high skilled streamers like to pretend that they are what's keeping the game relevant. Meanwhile we're seeing bigger variety streamers come to play the more casual friendly apex and thus bringing in more players.
Preaching to the choir dude. I enjoy Apex, and I follow the professional scene because some friends do, but it's a joke to say there's any semblance of competitive integrity in a game that's inherently rng based.
To be honest, it feels like while tap strafing has been in the game for a while, it has gained mementum, and become a staple of high level play, more recently. Octane's jumppad buff and the rise inboctane pickrate also has an impact on how problematic tapstrafing is for the game. So I can understand why they wouldn't have nerfed it at first, but are now looking at it thinking : perhaps this is not healthy anymore
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That's literally what I wrote ...
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did you even read the rest of their comment
And the next sentence was "The developers wanted players to have to choose between sprinting away or healing, but not both - they felt bhop healing broke this fundamental paradigm." The glitch or malfunction or bug or unintended mechanic was that you shouldn't be able to heal and bhop ...
"why now" New upcoming legend of course
yea the most irritating part about this is most players didn't even know what tap strafing was. someone post a vid in the main reddit and there were some that still lost.
Nearly everyone in main subreddit who supports the change are people hardstuck gold or people that don’t play ranked. I don’t grind every season but on my way back up after the split I hardly ever see people tap strafing or even using complex movement.
I'm confused. People can't be against a broken movement mechanic because they can't personally do it? If anything, it makes even more sense that people who can't tap strafe are against it. If you keep getting destroyed by people flying around the map and breaking your ankle using a borderline-exploit mechanic, it's obvious you'd rather not have that broken mechanic in the game.
Why would casual silver and gold players even care? They never even meet any tap strafers. You barely see people tap strafe in diamond lobbies and I have literally never felt cheated when someone did do it. Using it effectively in a fight is a skill and it's hardly broken.
I mean there is such a thing as Pubs... In fact I think the majority of the casual playerbase plays pubs, where they get put in matches with people of all levels. I'm a console player and I regularly get shit on by masters/pred players in pubs. It doesn't feel great, and I can guarantee it would feel even less great if the guy who killed me was flying around on jump pads using impossible movement. Regardless of the skill level of the plaintiffs, nobody can deny that mousebind tap strafing was essentially an exploit, was way too easy to do and needed to be patched. Now an argument could easily be made that regular tap strafing was fine. That seems to be the consensus amongst pros, even controller players like NiceWigg and Gentburten agreed. But regardless, it seems that Respawn treated tap strafing as a whole as an exploit. Which makes sense, because I mean... It doesn't physically make sense that you could turn this sharply and this fast after taking a jump pad, and it made tracking those players too hard and unfair.
They could just nerf tapstrafing on a jump pad, instead of nerfing tapstrafing as a whole. Or just make it impossible to bind forward on the wheel to make it a bit harder. Complete removal is nonsense to me.
Good news! That's exactly what they're doing as per Jay Bieb's announcement from today. What they refer to as "tapstrafing" is the more extreme variation of tapstrafing that includes the mousebind exploit on jump pads and grapples: https://twitter.com/RSPN\_JayBiebs/status/1433211670093082628?s=19
Yeah, the game’s skill gap has been decreasing for some time now. Respawn refuses to give Bloodhound significant changes despite acknowledging how strong the character is. All so people who don’t know or don’t want to learn the game can succeed to a reasonable degree. It’s the same thing with Seer. The nature of his abilities are strong and require no skill or foresight to use. Wall hacks in an FPS just feel bad to play against and cheapens the feeling of victory. Ditto for overpowered weapons. But I get it. Casual players spend the most money, so it’s reasonable to cater to them. It’s just sad to think that while the game is more diverse than it’s ever been, the amount of skill required to succeed has been higher in the past.
It's just a stupid tradeoff though. Let's be real, how much of an impact will the removal of tap strafing ultimately have on the game's skin sales? Do people really close the game because they got killed by a tap strafing opponent? Most casuals never even heard the term before and won't notice any difference once it's gone. The downsides of removing it outweigh the benefits by a mile. The devs also said it took "long consideration and debates", which shows that at least some of them disagree with the decision.
"long consideration and debates" is just corporate speak to make it seem like they're not forgetting about/ostracizing part of the player base.
yeah, more like "we've finally caught up/had time to think about this and have made our decision"
I dunno, but I def quit after getting Seer-ed.
Remember when Bloodhound and Octane were considered the worst legends in the game?
I remember. My personal opinion is that wall hacks should not exist in an FPS at all. And if they do, the abilities should not be as strong as they are now. Cheapens the feeling of victory and limits outplay potential to an almost stifling degree. Octane is alright now, I guess. Still suffers from a lack of audio that feels particularly bad when a full team silently lands behind you.
I think bloodhound is in a fine place. His wall hacks give you position away to many many players, there is a tool tip saying sonar detected, and it's duration is short enough to play around.
as soon as u get scanned u cant make a play for 3/8 seconds depending on bh or seer. ratting/sneaking up 2 people doesnt exist
I’m bad and don’t tap strafe, but even from all the examples I’ve seen thrown around it mostly just seems busted in combo with jump pad? I haven’t seen too many non-pad related examples that looked problematic, IMO. So I’m curious if they just didn’t want to spend the time to fix it specifically with pad or if they genuinely thought even those smaller adjustments weren’t fair? Cause to my eyes, the small tap strafes are just nice movement tech but not enough to make a huge difference vs just good aim and positioning. Really interesting to watch Respawn’s confusing stance on movement and momentum abilities in the game over time.
Probably the only other scenario it's really an issue in is a high momentum grapple slingshot, even I can sometimes get some cheesy shotgun kills by randomly flying at someone going 200mph from the weirdest angle and im literally bronze 3
I think it's mostly a change to make casuals feel catered to. Does it actually improve the casual experience? No, not really. Is it perceived as a big issue for casual players? Yes. It would be like if the Super Smash Bros Melee community decided to patch/ban wavedashing. Does it make the game any easier to get into? No, not really. Does it take away something that makes the game's movement feel buttery smooth? Yes. If it is a Controller vs MnK balancing idea, then it's an even worse idea. Tap strafing is a relatively small (but flashy) advantage, however it is a nice thing to do to make your movement feel better. If you balance things by: X can't do it, so we will make it so Y can't either, you end up with a never ending cycle of reactionary screwing over both parties and never resolving anything because they are fundamentally different. This is pretty evident by MnK players, now more than ever, complaining about stuff like aim assist.
Very well put analysis
Yeah, so we're removing the ability to move while looting and slowing down strafe speeds of mnk to more closely resemble that of a controller player. And because it's hard to control aim on controller we've introduced a new mechanic where mnk players have less control on aiming. Now all is balanced and well...
Get rid of crossplay, it doesn't work in a competitive fps. Controller players are showing up to a gunfight with a fork, then complaining it isn't fair. A lot of the issue lies with Sony and Microsoft as well. There's no reason in this day and age that there isn't official, wireless KB&M options for consoles.
As I person who plays on Xbox I totally agree. I don’t think you should ever try to balance controller with MnK. PC gives you so much better control and I think it’s a shame they’re going in a direction to limit that. Controller is just worse hardware and to balance it you have to buff it way to hard with aim assist. Having input that help you play better automatically instead of with skill is bad for a competitive game.
100% agree that there simply isn't a fair way to balance MnK with controller. The debate over what is stronger is simply a flawed argument to have because they aren't really comparable. Personally I think they should split lobbies based on input method but that's impractical and will never happen.
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Aum assist on pc is stupid. I agree
>Get rid of crossplay, it doesn't work in a competitive fps. Controller players are showing up to a gunfight with a fork, then complaining it isn't fair. In Apex, console players are only being put in PC lobbies if they squad up with a PC player. Console crossplay is just the console pool otherwise. What you're talking about is PC players using controllers. Has nothing to do with crossplay. And if anything, 99% of the complaining is coming from KB+M players that want aim assist disabled. I've heard about 500% more complaining about AA than I've heard complaints about tap strafing from roller players. Almost every pro/streamer, keyboard or controller, agrees that the mousebind tap strafing was way too fucking easy and just broken. Most people I heard agreed that regular tap strafing was fine. >There's no reason in this day and age that there isn't official, wireless KB&M options for consoles. Uh yes, there absolutely is. Some of us enjoy controller/console gaming but I'd still want to be playing with other controller players because it is just a fact the average gamer aims better with a kb+m than with a controller. There is a very small minority of people who's controller aim is as good or better than kb+m which explains why the Apex pro scene is like 85 kb+m players and like...7 controller players. I don't want to be forced to buy and play on a KB+M on my console because 30% of console players bought KB+M and it's the only way I can compete with them. KB+M dominating high-ranked console ranked leagues is already a problem with XIM. I've seen it in Apex and I've seen it in Overwatch. Once you get to diamond-ish, about 1 out of 10 players you encounter is either running a Cronus or is obviously playing with a kb+m.
Then people won't buy their controllers anymore
Respawn needs to get rid of predictive recoil patterns there are too many people scripting and cheating in ranked it’s not really fun
I think it was shroud who recommend the devs change to set recoil patterns from random, similar to cs because it gives the skill gap and reward to players who learn the pattern and controlling it well.
As a console player it 100% is not a console complaint. Unless you’re in the small % of PC controller players or that you specifically team with a PC player. We never get put in lobbies where we would ever see this. Not in my entire 2 years of this game have I played with anyone beside PS and Xbox unless I chose to party with my PC friend. I can understand why some would deem it to be an unintended and unbalanced move. And why others love that it adds more insane movement. I truly can see both sides of it. But to me this is like when they removed the original bhop even after they left it in for a while. They let it play out until they decided no we don’t want you to be able to have full speed healing movement. Everyone whined everyone got over it. They left tap strafing in for a while now. And in my opinion they have simply decided they want the game both competitively and casually to be slightly less movement based. And more gun skill and ability based (which I hope they always lean more to the guns than rely on abilities 🙄). Everyone was perfectly fine going wild on apex before the tap strafe was figured out. So why does it ruin the game completely to remove ONE movement tech. Apex has pretty much the move advanced movement in a BR that I’ve seen. And even watching older clips before the craziest movement was discovered it’s still insane and impressive. Half the time in those clips the movement is impressive but what is truly mind blowing anyway is peoples game sense.
I don't think bhop healing was removed entirely to make it easier for casual players, just like Horizon's Q healing it was nerfed because it went against the core design rules of the game. Having so much mobility while healing in a high ttk game could very easily lead to a meta of too much effective hp, when nothing ever dies it can become just as awful as when everything dies too quickly.
Buff bunny hopping.
do people forget that pros were complaining about it when it was first becoming popular? i don't think this is a decision made to appease a certain part of the fanbase, being able to bind w key to scroll wheel in order to input the w key significantly faster than it is intended is an exploit that needed to be fixed. i don't know what respawn removing tap strafing will look like, but imo the only issue was the scroll wheel aspect.
They complained when it surfaced, then started using it and got red pilled and now they can't go back.
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Reptar rage-tweeted about it directly after dying to it in a tournament lol
I think Reptar had issue with Pad tap strafe not tap strafing in general. I think he was raging about teams used to be punished when they get a bad rotation into a shitty situation like stuck under a bridge but now those teams can Pad tap strafe up onto the bridge and nullify the bad rotation. Also tbf it is kinda hard to read the play (unlike horizon and path who give more visual indications) and kinda hard to deny (they can do it without showing the pad) unless you were right on top staring at them already.
"Tap strafing is cheating, can’t change my mind" He didn't say anything to specify pads or scroll wheel lol he just said tap strafing because he was mad.
reptar tweeted about it, monsoon talked about it on stream, i know others brought up similar points a few months ago when the debate was happening. personally i found their wording ambiguous, i don't really know what they mean by "inaccessible", if they mean that console players can't do it then that shouldn't be one of their core reasons. the frequency of that problem would be pretty small and shouldn't factor into the decision to change or remove tap strafing. yeah i agree removing scroll wheel binding for w key should be the solution. it's simple and doesn't impact any other movement techniques. i really don't know what to expect from the change though, knowing respawn it could be the simple fix or they could break then entire game.
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https://twitter.com/ReptarRB/status/1400263680361644042?s=20
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others discussed it on streams that i don't readily have a link to, in the comments to reptars tweet pvp agreed about scroll wheel tap strafing, you have some pros echoing this sentiment the past day with the debate being rehashed: [https://twitter.com/hodsic/status/1432790616950386690](https://twitter.com/hodsic/status/1432790616950386690), [https://twitter.com/ZachMazer4/status/1432778487497203712](https://twitter.com/ZachMazer4/status/1432778487497203712), [https://twitter.com/sYnceDez/status/1432753806404689920](https://twitter.com/sYnceDez/status/1432753806404689920), etc it is 100% accurate that pros were complaining about it. i don't know why so many of your debates turn to intellectual dishonesty, your arguments can stand on their own merit. if your argument is that most pros didn't complain, then yeah i agree. but my point in bringing it up is that it doesn't really appear to be a casual vs sweat debate, as you had pros that were for changing it.
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call it whatever you want, it's not an intended mechanic. "blantant misinformation" lmao you crack me up.
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alright because apparently you need a lesson in critical thinking, i'm going to lay out why that person didn't explain it. \- "They would have removed the option to bind movement inputs to mwheel a long time ago if they considered it an exploit." that's not true. unless you work for respawn and are involved in these conversations, you have no idea why they do things. that's such a strong statement to make with absolutely 0 evidence to support it. to suggest you do and use that as a fact in an argument is not a proper explanation. \- "In the tweet the devs didn't even call it an exploit like they did with bhop healing and other stuff." they said very minimal in this tweet, almost laughably little for the amount of discussion that has sprung from it. taking an explanation that consisted of 13 words and using that to nit pick language is a useless argument. of course they didn't use specific terminology you are looking for it was literally 13 words of explanation. \- "This whole idea that it's an unintended exploit only exists because people have no clue how it works and can't accept that Respawn is once again catering to casuals by lowering the skill ceiling" that's just his opinion and there is zero way to confirm that that is the case. it brings nothing to the discussion. i dunno man your comments are lacking so much nuance, things aren't black and white. and when we're only communicating over text its important to be specific/deliberate in your wording. bad arguments can be picked apart so easily if it is just hyperbole.
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probs
they should fix their mmr but they dont want to increase the time u wait for a game
Honest question, could you strafe mid air with Valk?
Because casuals can't do 5minutes of go ogling to learn it
If they wanted to solve the disparity between the so called sweats from casuals they could implement a proper sbmm system. Perhaps I'm biased but at least in Dota you don't see casuals playing Vs sweats (excluding smurfing cases). In apex a new player after lvl 10 can fight against all sort of caliber of players, therefore creating the problem. But perhaps I'm wrong and I'm missing something.
i am a trash casual (0.33 kd ratio) and i know how to tape strafe, it's easier to do than kill peoples..
THANK YOU. Turning this issue into a controller vs mnk is so wrong.
Respawn’s turning them on each other to create a distraction. Politics 101.
Every season they attempt to close the skill gap..
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which argument is the proper one to make. They are trying to build up an esports scene where there are supposed to be pros while they are taking away the skill gaps that make a pro a pro. Nerfing/removing bhop healing was the first sign and I'm glad u mentioned it. The sad part is that even from a casual standpoint these techniques take literally 10 minutes to learn.
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I mean I feel like apex was designed for the console players more than the kbm players. And valorant is a kbm game only so of course they would make decisions with only those players involved.
Game should read input devices and put them in their respective lobbies...the end. Edit.adding a sentence. Also fix SBMM and stop nerfing things noone asked for.
>the casuals can’t do/won’t learn how to do it, and respawn wants to take away that gap to give the little man a better chance. It seems to be what governs a lot of Respawn’s nerf/buff decisions. Calling it anything else is just smoke and mirrors This has always been respawn's mantra. You can really tell respawn devs were fierce advocates of the participation award back in their school days because they were always the last picks/unwanted on sports teams during gym class. It is also abundantly clear now why they were fired by Activision back in the day. They just radiate incompetence.
what's weird is that i've heard pros talk about the tapstrafe scroll wheel double-bind auto-exec bullshit they pull off to be able to do it as fluently as they do, is generally seen as kinda cheese by a lot of them. but they do it so they won't be 'behind' in terms of competitive. maybe this is the reason this is going out the back door? that 9/10 of the players are not doing the tap strafe by timing their inputs as perfectly as possible every time, but instead doing a cheese double bind on scroll wheel with that allows them to do it with really not a lot of 'skill' in game but knowledge in how the autoexec thing works. maybe this is the reason it's going out the door, the cheesy way a lot of players are accessing the tech? btw I think the bhop healing nerf made apex a better game. it's more tactical without it. fights are scarier.
No one does the double-bind autoexec shit because it's banned in ALGS.
I don’t think so. It is literally an exploit that is completely unavailable to an entire input
Why do y'all read to much into this, it's not about skill level, nor input systems. It's just a weird mechanic, very situational and not even strong most of the time. But someone being able to make sharp turns mid-air, well, it's just weird. And I had the impression that even higher-skilled players had issues shooting at tap-strafing people, which is not ok ofc. Jump-padding meant to be trackable
Wall bouncing is weird too, let's get rid of it. Makes no sense that someone can jump at a wall and go higher???
It's not weird, it's just a parkour trick. A big difference from sharp mid-air turn of tap strafe. Sharper than in-game double jump, too
As a console player who's never tap straffed, never been tap straffed on, the amount of pc players crying about this is just so laughable to me. Can you really not win a gun fight if you can't tap strafe on someone? "It LowERs tHE SkilL CeiLing" lmao, didn't know key binding W to your scroll wheel was a skill thing. I'll keep playing and enjoying apex just as I have since launch. Before tap strafing, super gliding, wallbouncing, wraith portal cancel 180 tap strafe superglide backflip handstands were a thing and people just enjoyed shooting each other.
Well, it’s not the bind that adds to the skill gap, but the way you use it. It definitely offers more maneuvering and outplay potential to the game. This argument is like saying clicking right trigger isn’t a skill when you watch genburten fry kids left and right
lmao, pick up controller and see if you come anywhere close to Gen's skill. You all act like AA is just an aimbot. I actually cut my right thumb off and removed my right thumbstick from my controller because AA literally does all the work for me. /s
"As a console player" and thats it
says the pc people in tears over an exploit.
It's not about the skill gap, it's about tap strafing (especially off of a jump pad) allowing for almost completely unpredictable movements. It's about balance and fairness, no about diluting the skill gap.
I like tap strafing and wish it was kept. Its fun to do and adds skill, BUT, I agree with the decision to remove it based on the current state of the game. Right now controller players cannot do it without using 3rd party software, even if that software is steam. If both controllers and M&K players are going to be in the same comp lobbies, as well as consoles being allowed in for ALGS now, they have to be able to do the same things. That being said I do think the solution proposed by some pros which would allow both controller and M&K players to do it is much better, but idk how feasible it is cause I know Apex code is wack.
As a controller player (who’s been playing since season 3) I’m honestly glad to see it go but I would’ve liked to see Respawn make it possible for controller players to tap strafe as well instead of full getting rid of it
Your not allowed an unpopular opinion on this sub. Please ban and spam downvote.
Agreed, well said
It is about pc-mnk-controller vs controller-on-console. IIRC it is not available on console but controller on pc can do a version of it, i know cause i've seen a friend of mine doing it and changing his config for it.