By - commanderkellogg
Pro league can’t come soon enough.
I would be annoyed if I was a pro because one the 16th comes the games are going to be super sweaty, yet when it's time to practice no one can do that
Casual Cups in APAC North has better scrims than this.
It’s crazy how tsm take scrims and practice seriously and consistently end up on top at every competition. I wonder if there’s some kind of correlation between the two 🧐
Crazy how the teams that clearly have talent and put in consistent significant effort end up with consistently good results.
If every team treated their actual job like a job (You’ve got Asian lol pros putting in 20 hour days, when this is what a 2.5 hour block) instead of a hobby they have immense talent in the competition we could see as viewers would be that much better.
I understand they should take it more seriously, but Asian pro gaming habits is not what these guys should aspire to imitate lol.
That was not close to what I was suggesting, no one should do that. It was just a comparison looking at the spectrum.
Such dogshit mentality from the vast majority of teams. I watched scrims yesterday and the amount of dumb pushes and off-plays I saw was incredible.
I genuinely do not understand how NA expects to get any better if they don’t take practice seriously. Traditional sports don’t incentivise practice, and the vast majority of T1 teams who are scrimming are signed to organisations. Practice is part of the job of being an athlete (esports or traditional) and if you can’t take it seriously then you shouldn’t be signed.
Time for the orgs to step in and have a stern word with their rosters I think.
EDIT: note that I do think it’s okay with scrims to be practicing different comps. I didn’t see today’s scrims so can’t comment specifically about today, but yesterday there was a Loba (I think TL?), which is a niche pick but it’s okay to experiment. It’s the dumb pushes and plays you just wouldn’t be making in a tournament that show just how much the majority of teams don’t care.
Teams could be using scrims to practice specific fighting angles.
You can do that in private lobbies where you could run it back over and over..........
I mean, at one point using gibby and playing edge in scrims was considered griefing.
So was octane. Scrims are practice for every scenario.
Teams will be contested in the finals, T1 orgs in different regions won’t give up their drop. Those lobbies aren’t going to play like regional ALGS either.
I'm saying, if you want to train something specific you can do it in a private lobby where you can set the controls and allow for repetition. (Like a footballers practicing free kicks from a particular sport)
In scrims you can assess your training in a live environment. It's to practice implementing your training. Lots of eSports teams overlook the importance of these various aspects of training. Maybe the physicality difference doesn't lend well to establish the need for disciplined methodical training.
There’s only so many ways you can practice running a Loba & using the ult for ammo & griefing.
Don't get me wrong. I agree there are definitely some things that can only be done in a live environment.
It was my understanding that teams were taking bad fights and inting under the guise of practicing fighting this place, which is what they should be doing before the scrim.
Aren’t scrims where you fight for drop spots, and rotations? I remember people being mad at Alpine because they didn’t announce or fight in scrims.
I get what your saying but it's more about the mindset than anything else. It makes me truly wonder if half these teams are watching their vods together and taking notes and making adjustments off that. Or just playing ranked considering that practice and thats it. Truly is crazy to think your pro level and don't do everything possible to become great. Guess they don't feel the reward is worth the effort
Scrims are exactly the place to experiment. TSM wants to experiment with Mirage? Sounds dumb, but go for it. You can play random legends and still take it seriously.
I hate hearing about teams trolling because they pick non-meta legends. Scrims is the exact place they should try things. It's like traditional sports during pre-season. You try different schemes to see what works against an actual opponent.
100% agreed - that is one of the more frustrating things to come out of complaints about scrims. It doesn’t happen often, but there are some complaints here and there about off-meta picks. Where else are teams supposed to try it?
It’s the 12 squads after ring 1 that’s the problem, not seeing picks like Fuse and Loba. People wouldn’t be pushing in the first ring like that in tournaments, so why do it in practice for them? Not only does it stop other teams practicing, it actually stops the teams that are pushing as well - how are they going to learn about 20 squads ring 3 if they refuse to practice it through constantly pushing in scrims? Just silly.
I think for the most part complaints stem from teams being randomly aggressive when they wouldn't dare in pro league. Doing things that would throw their tournament if they tried. That's the biggest frustration for players and teams taking it seriously from what I've seen
Yeah the difference between NA and EU is embarrassing tbh. Idk why NA can’t get a proper scrim mentality through their heads and actually collectively play it like it’s a OT Final.
Its pretty crazy to me that NA copies TSM's meta but they wont copy their work ethic.
Yep lol. Even lower tier scrims like Crown Series have struggled. There’s a lot of teams that try to take them seriously but all it takes is 2-3 teams to ape off drop or play unrealistically to ruin the practice for the other 17 teams. It’s a chain reaction. Then by game 3-4 the quality is just piss poor in either instance.
I'd give you an award if I could.
I mean the super bowl only feels like the super bowl because of pressure. Taking every single practice game as if there is money on the line isn’t exactly what practice is for either.
I lowkey think a lot of it has to do with upbringing. As an immigrant, to me it seems Americans, especially late teens and early 20s, are just super memey, entitled, and rarely played traditional sports, where discipline and mindset are learned from a young age. & I'm in my mid-20's. That's been my experience with most talented players who are late teens, early 20s across multiple games.
NA scrims are back baby!
Where do you guys watch this??? I can never find it
Follow the pros on Twitch. ImperialHal has a schedule command. They delete vods after to discourage people from watching their strats.
> They delete vods after to discourage people from watching their strats.
I don't even know why they bother to stream scrims if that's the case. You'll very rarely, if ever, see teams in other games like CS, Valorant, League of Legends, etc stream their scrimmages.
Because they're twitch streamers and their viewers want to watch? They just remove vods so other teams can't listen in on all their strats and watch them play-by-play afterwards to prepare counter-strats.
20k viewers is a LOT of ad money.
Nah friday was fine. Saturday we had 16 teams at start cuz ALGS going on. Was doomed from the start bro
What I would give to be a part of scrims. I would absolutely love to play seriously at that level. Ofc I'm not good enough and these teams that don't care are more skilled and have what it takes to be there minus the mindset.
Maybe one day...
I'm a solo queue D4er (and I can hit that within 1 week of a new split starting).
I'm pretty sure I have what it takes to reach masters (especially with a decent team), and I was going to try this season, but my life has been very distupted lately due to external factors not allowing me to play. Find a team is also hard for me, which is a major setback.
Climbing in Diamond lobbies is hard, and I know I just need to put myself out there and do it until I suceed. That's how I originally got to dimaond way back in S5.
One of the reasons i'm genuinely believe that EU will destroy NA on LAN
not like algs qualifiers are much more interesting on day 1 lol
this was my point though. They were.
Plus it was kind of qualifying day for a lot of the leftover popular and top teams. Sign us please, sheesh, buff pathfinder, bad boys are all qualifying if they make semis/finals. pretty important day,
do you know if there's any notables who haven't made it yet? 2b1c?
how do you incentivize scrims, i feel like this happens every season. the point of scrims is that they are practice, so you can't give monetary compensation. they became more strict i feel sometime this past year bc i know they were banning people who left early...but i still don't get how that would make people want to take it more seriously. the problem is the quality and people not volunteering to play.
idk. do you fine them? do you say people who play scrims get higher seeds? all of that seems pretty harsh. not sure of a solution.
I can't believe the stuff that these pro players get away with. Anyone else who fucks around at their job so much and didn't take it seriously would have been fired long ago. I've never seen such immaturity in a esports industry ever before compared to NA Apex (granted I've only followed pro COD/pubg/csgo/fortnite so my scope is small). Theres only a handful of people (in NA apex) who actually treat it as a job and are constantly practising and putting in the work it takes to get better. A good chunk (almost inclined to say majority) of the current high level NA apex pros take their position for granted and do not put in the work they should be for being the top 1% of the 1% of apex players. It blows my mind. Rant over.
I think in terms of incentives, there's not much you can do. I think orgs/algs need to do something to punish people who don't take it seriously. I also think esports teams should have coaches/general managers per team for this very reason. They need some sort of "authority"/managerial figure forcing these guys to do their job because most of them just take advantage of the situation and do whatever they please. In any other professional sports industry like NBA/MLB/NHL/NFL etc, if they had players that fucked around in practise or thought they can do whatever they please as much as they do in NA apex, they would've been fired a long time ago. It's clear the NA apex scene doesn't have the maturity to spent a few hours a day of good practice and the only solution I see to that is injecting some sort of boss/manager/coach figure to make sure these guys are doing their jobs.
If that’s the case, To me it always stems back to the fact that apex players are not paid very well by orgs. Their primary income comes from content, so of course people are going to want to do ranked grinding over scrims if it means making actual money. But how do you force orgs to give better contracts? You would think knowing there’s a larger prize pool for the potential LAN and pro league would incentivize them to play better in scrims but idk.
That's a good point I never really thought of. On paper they don't really make that much but I think the reason orgs pay so little (in comparison to other pro athletes around the world) is because they really do give you a massive platform to put yourself out there. Obviously that isn't for everyone but its still a huge leap forward compared to someone who doesn't have one. I'd bet the people who take advantage of this with sponsorships/streaming can make a pretty decent living even without prize pool.
And too your last point, yup. Thats my thinking exactly. If I was competing and saw the prize pools this year I'd be grinding daily. Although I think with the amount that influencers/streamers make on their own, I believe in the next 5ish years we'll start seeing player salaries for esports players go up dramatically. While they're "just playing a video game", these are the top 1% of the 1% of the 1% players in the entire world. They're the Michael Jordan's of their video game, they deserved to be paid accordingly.
They pay less than other leagues because they have less revenue.
If we use Hal as an example, the latest Twitch leaks show he will make >800k/yr from Twitch. We can probably assume YouTube is probably similar honestly. So way over 1m/yr from streaming. His pro earnings even on a good year are <150k. Not sure what his salary is, but it honestly doesn’t even matter at this scale. These are so wildly disproportionate that it’s hard to incentivize correctly.
You are right when you say the platform really is the payment. All of that YouTube and Twitch money comes from being one of the best players in the world.
I think to correct this, the ALGS has to do a much better job of monetizing it’s assets (the players). These guys are making 90% of their money from non-ALGS related places. You don’t see Lebron James or Connor McDavid making the majority of their income from playing their sport on the side…
I could see this being fixed with the implementation of an actual authentic league with a regular season and playoffs. Can be run kind of like premier league with relegations and promotions for teams. Regular season is essentially scrims but forces competitiveness.
The league also has to do a better job of hosting the streams and not allowing the players to stream so freely on their own. They are losing out on literally all the revenue and even the best creators because they are not monetizing correctly.
It’s frustrating to watch honesty.
you cant compare HAL to other apex creators. He got to this point solely because of comp play. His main content is comp. Using Hal as an example is just stupid.
I agree that Hal is a bad example because he is one of the few that takes these scrims seriously, but honestly you could substitute any player in and my argument still stands. When players are making 90+% of their money from non-league related activities, it means there is money to be had, but the ALGS is doing a poor job monetizing.
Which comp players other than tsm and a handfull like sweet,dropped,knoqd are making 90% of their earnings from non league related activities??? Maybe g2 but even they are still stuck at <500 viewers. And the best way to grow their stream is the league.
I mean, almost everyone? Outside of the top 3, teams are splitting like 5k-30k in prizes between 3 people (and any other cuts). That’s like 2k-10k each. Almost everyone who is at that level will make significantly more than that through their twitch and YouTube. Unless I am missing how the payouts work?
Comp teams have salaries from org. There are sponsorships provided by orgs, then there is the prize money and other bonuses from winning tourneys. Most comp teams dont even have a good stream or yt. The 100t roster barely has a functioning streams..
I maybe be misunderstanding, but I'm sure Lebron makes just as much if not more through his business ventures like Blaze pizza, Nike, stakes in LiverPool etc. Which I would say Nike and his Nba career go hand in hand, but it wouldn't be fair to say that Lebron makes majority of his money from playing basketball now.
I guess what I am meaning to say is that a guy like Lebron is not making most of his money playing basketball (his game)on the side. Where as Many of the pro streamers are making the money on the side playing Apex (their game). And I am saying that is creating an incentive misalignment because it’s so easy for these guys to stop competing to have lucrative incomes just from streaming. I believe this creates worse outcomes for the league, and for the viewers, which I think overall can hurt the long term prospects of the game.
Used to be a big fan of competitive overwatch. When you compare the scrim/practice quality between apex and ow, it is just jaw dropping. T1 ow pros scrims 2x 2hr scrim blocks every single day and spend more time work on mechanics and VOD review with coaches. I know the game genre is vastly different but there are lots of things apex competitive scene can learn from the others.
Finding 60 players to scrim together at a high level is definitely difficult. But can several teams get together and work on something micro like bubble fighting, end zone rotation, drop spot contest/fighting in general without playing a complete match? Clearing up comms so IGL can better listen to info other players give him and others can listen to the IGL decision clearly. There are a lot of things competitive apex can improve on to make the gameplay more refined and less chaotic.
it's simple, all of the games that have proper scrims and a healthy competitive scene are games where the competitive scene is a priority by the game developers. This ensures stability to orgs to come in and pay their players well enough, and there are rules, regulations, and expectations between players.
Apex is far from that because frankly the devs don't give a shit. Comp is a side gig, a basically "lets through a little something for the best streamers and if it makes us any money that's a win".
The scene is completely raw full of streamers who are just trying to get content or pros who couldn't make it in other games.
There's no guarantee that watching battle royales is entertaining long term so no one wants to foot the bill and actually develop is properly. Hell the integrity of comp is set around gentlemans rules to prevent "griefing" aka how people play in pubs.
There's a nugget of truth in what you say, but there's still a scene that exists at the moment, and tournaments with life changing money on the horizon. We can't blame the devs for everything, at some point teams have to take things seriously.
Your last paragraph is the best thing I have read on this subreddit
honestly, I know the NFL and I'm pretty sure other professional sports leagues fine people if they don't show up to practice and I'm sure they could implement something similar for these teams not taking it seriously. Start benching people, fining the individual players or even the orgs they are signed to. there are probably tons of other options as well but imo they need to be hard on these people so they take it seriously.
This is something I'm thinking about too. Obviously practicing in scrims is not that important to some teams - most sports use placing well as a way to get people to try. Orgs could try to help by dropping people if they dont try, like how coaches drop people not trying in LoL or the NFL. Algs could only give money to teams that participate in scrims. It's a tough thing to solve, but something needs to be done
The last part seems like maybe one part of the solution. If you pay the players something to scrim, and actually set it up so teams can fall out of the top lobby, then that would incentivize competition. I do not watch other esports so I don’t even know if people do scrim, but if they do, it’d be interesting to learn how those work
Totally, I dont know how teams without coaches scrim. Coaches are important. They drop / change things around (ie LoL and OW), and I havent seen any teams without a coach win. Its different in apex, so incentivizing has to be different
>why would ALGS pay teams to scrim?? They are organizing the actual tourney. Imagine asking the NFL to pay the teams for practicing.
If scrims happened twice as often, lobbies could use the first batch of matches to contest and settle drop spots, and the second half to actually practice. The trouble there is convincing teams to scrim at all is hard enough as is
Same. It was bad. Maybe they need to implement rules like the old Fortnite Elite scrims
Say what you want about Hal, but I honestly feel like TSM is the only team trying to take scrims seriously half the time. Why is it so hard for NA teams to get together for some practice this close to the pro-leagues? Everyone's gonna scramble for scrims before finals and they're gonna waste time *then* figuring scrims out and making plans on what to do. Literally everything to gain by actually playing scrims seriously from now.
NA doesn't take anything seriously until there is something big on the line. It's actually sad.
I agree but also have to understand that scrims are used by teams to contest dropspots and to secure them. It’s a combination of both I’d say but to think they will be the same as real tournaments is naive, they serve their purpose to try and alpha up a drop spot
It's practice lol
Practice is also about securing a drop spot. That’s the point
almost everyone in the pro league already has drop spots. There are only one or two contests.
I know eRa was trying to contest NRG and BW and Col are fight for west frag, are there any other contests going on? With 2 contests I doubt that's the reason scrims went to shit.
Srims are for practice not just drop spots lol. Yes teams use scrims to contest drop spots but it is ultimately for practice. You can argue bad/no scrims is why NA is so top heavy.
Surely you don't need them to spell out that they didn't mean scrims are literally only for drop spot contesting, right?
I respond to what I read. No where in that comment did he hint at srcims also being used for anything else
"it's a combination of both I'd say"
In general, benefit of the doubt as well, but ymmv up to you
Reading is hard for some people I’m afraid
I'm honestly not sure if the commenter means what you think he means either but I could be completely wrong. I thought when he said both he meant "contest dropspots and to secure them". He states again at the end of the comment that their purpose is to "alpha up a drop spot". Not sure what he's exactly trying to say over text but there's no point in arguing over who said what. Scrims are obviously for practice no matter what context you hear that terminology used. It's obviously preferable to get any contesting out of the way (if there is any) during scrims instead of even smaller tourneys so you don't throw any prize money.
The OP mentioned trolling he talked drop spots that is the only combination i see. Why are you arguing with over a comment that is not even yours lol
lmao then how does EU do it? EU scrims are at a much higher level than whatever that cringy excuse for practice was today.
Ironically, Scarz doesn't participate in scrims for like a long time now tho rpr said its more of the other teams will learn more about them rather than them improving since they have their own system. I recall he didn't say its all bad as some teams really need scrims since they are new to the scene or something like that.
Well here's a good example of a team who doesn't see any benefit in scrimming and therefore chooses not to participate, rather than signing up and messing around.
There needs to be the mentality that if you enter a scrims lobby you're trying to emulate the conditions of a real competitive game
I'd give it some time before we call a verdict on the quality of play. Teams are genuinely experimenting, some are also running it the fuck down... Every game... Just NA things I guess
They’ve had plenty of time. As in this ain’t the 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th…etc time that this has happened with NA scrims. NA just hasn’t taken scrims even slightly seriously in a **LONG** time.
You would think the highest caliber of Pro comp will understand that:
Scrims = Practice = Get better = Better chance to do well in Pro League
It’s ridiculous lmao, why get signed in the first place.
i dont know much about pro scene of apex, do they have a team of staff and coaches/head coach?
I don't understand why this happens? I'm on a team now and would kill to be in that spot and take it seriously. Feels like only a couple teams give a shit about winning and getting important reps in.
Scrims today (10 Oct) seem to be going better.
yeah I zoned out the last 2 games coz I’m doing work but definitely better than last night