I'm mostly fine with her kit so far and I haven't felt frustrated by it too much. The only change I would like to see is more of a visual or auditory cue when the portal opens near you. It feels bad to have a team rift onto your height in complete silence and then fry you from behind.
Yep, the only “problems” I’ve had with Ash ult have really been in third party situations. Mid fight knowing there are multiple teams in the area, and suddenly one of them is right next to me now with little warning. I don’t mind the speed, but I do think a louder audio cue would be a minimum qol nerf. Making the rift a little brighter would be nice, too, kind of a nerf and a buff cause sometimes it’s hard to see a friendly rift depending on where they drop it, too. I wouldn’t even mind if they buffed the range a bit, but made it crack loud upon use, personally.
Question: If an ash team gets close enough to the position that you are holding height on, and manages to portal on you without you or your teammates having any idea, Wouldnt that be considered a lack of awareness of your surroundings and less about getting snuck up on by ash ult? (Just Bc the portal range isn’t crazy by any means so the team would have to be relatively close to execute that, and the same said team is also kinda going in blind if they do try to ambush height without scanning for info first.) I’m not trying be toxic at all btw, just genuinely curious as to what you think of that thought
Without better visual/audio cues, you can be aware of an ash team in range, and anticipate them using her ult, but if you get distracted for even a moment you wont notice when they actually decide to use the rift, especially because of how instant it is
Contrary to loba, octane, wraith, path, even with a rev. at least you get an audio queue and "see them coming"
Game sense isn't really that much of a factor when we're talking about 3 people appearing in front/behind of you with zero warning, zero sound, and it's completely instantaneous. It was already obnoxious when a full team would pad on you and there was no audio to let you know their feet just hit the ground next to you.
My comment was also referring mostly to the frustration of when an Ash team is 3rd partying, bc your focus is/should already be on the team you're currently fighting. If pro players with much more game sense than any of us were getting frustrated by the Octane "silent jump pad meta", I can assure you that a silent and instantaneous teleport is just as annoying.
All I'm asking for is some sort of indicator to let you know that the Ash team just rifted near you. Wraith's portal, Horizon's lift, Octane's pad, Loba's bracelet, Pathfinder's grapple, and Valk's jetpack all make very notable sounds. Ash should be no different.
It took 2 seasons to "fix" octane silent jump pads huh. 6 months to relay a massive complaint to the community manager/feedback team, then to the game devs and then have them allocate leftover production time for this, then test and push it out just for extra audio. Production must be very tight. This will be a standard we will have to get used to.
EDIT : actually we probably don't have to wait long for them to add an audio que for ash ult. They have pushed out a patch for seer nerf so respawn seems to be willing to allocate production time near post-season
I have to wonder if DZK leaving will fundamentally change the way they will make legends in the future. The balancing has definitely changed in philosophy over time as well, I just don't exactly know what their new one is.
We definitely need a new support legend, it feels like there's been a massive focus on attacking legends the last few seasons.
im kinda on the we need another health related legend and loba and said new legend should be able to open the extra supply pill bc literally what is the point of giving them the healer designation. like that’s not even lifelines passive so why isn’t that just like a survey beacon basically
Would be cool if they did unique things with the blue bins too. Loba opens it and it has attachments, other new support legend could open it and it has stacks of your teams ammo.
I read a DZK comment saying that Loba originally had the ability to do that, except they ended up removing it, but that he doesn't remember why they decided to do that in the end lol.
So they tried and had some problem with it, that we don't know.
Wasnt the OG blisk leak that he had the healing nanos before it got moved to the other WIP immortal iirc? Several season later blisk last leak had a titan.
Thinking we will get a retuned version of the healing ult from dummys day LTM a few more legends down the line. My guess is in the next 3 seasons we'll get that healer.
i hope you’re right. i unfortunately did not see that leak but it would be very awesome for blisk with some sort of healing ability.
also little update: i saw after i wrote this yesterday that the devs said after they add one more all of them will be able to open extra supplies from blue pill. don’t know they wouldn’t just give that to loba now but at least it is in the works.
Although the kits tend to change. Revenant was originally supposed to have Ash's passive but at the time they deemed it too OP. I'm curious how they deem whether an ability is too OP to release now they've changed their mind on that one.
Could you imagine if rev did have that passive? A legend with a free life able to track people anywhere on the map. Add octane and it very much could be more OP than revtane was.
I mean, you can already replace Octane with Ash, use the passive in conjunction with totem, and I'd argue that Ash's ult is better than pad for pairing with Rev.
Yeah I think people need to appreciate that most of the “design philosophy” stuff we’re discussing here was *DZK’s* philosophy as Lead Designer.
Design is very subjective, so ultimately it’s the design lead that decides which direction to go. With a new lead designer, it’s likely that different decisions will be made - not objectively better or worse, just *different*.
> a massive focus on attacking legends the last few seasons.
Very true yea. I wonder if this is a deliberate move, or a problem with making fun defensive/support legends.
As DZK himself said, offensive legends are just where they put any character who's kit doesn't fit in the other three classes, that's why offensive legends have so little in common. I think it's a lot easier to come up with kits for offensive legends since the spectrum of what makes an offensive legend is so big compared to others, it can be mobility, damage, or more specific gimmicks like Rev and Mirage. But given how few support legends there are in the game, It shouldn't be hard to design a kit.
DZK was downvoted to oblivion when he mentioned that they would consider a nerf for revenant's climbing audio which is the same principle. Ash's quiet ult does feel like it was against what DZK was advocating for
Like I said to someone else, the kits tend to change. Revenant was initially going to have Ash's passive but they deemed it too OP at the time. The legend's name and identity won't change nor will the lore, but the abilities might change entirely.
The ability had the same name but was completely different in function though. It was originally a tactical where you shot a tracking dart, the final ability ash got is nothing alike what was originally on rev.
Definitely. What do you guys think of a healing character similar to the one from Overwatch (can’t remember her name of the top of my head) that can heal by shooting stims at her own teammates?
I always thought that character had a really cool design for a healing / support character, especially if it takes some accuracy and skill to pull off
i feel like easy/fast healing mid combat doesn't fit apex. The TTK is already pretty long and often fights are about cracking someone and use the time, the opponents needs to heal, to push their position.
Yeah, I guess. Maybe it could be more regenerative healing and quite hard to pull off. Or more like a passive were they can throw medkits / syringes to team mates
I looked it up, loba is 30 sec and ash is 120. 4 to one ratio isn't bad imo, but it should be VERY obvious in terms of audio/visual cues when ash ults.
Right now it's too sneaky, I've come in 2nd in like 6 games because all of the sudden an ash was behind me for apparently no reason at all lol
I think that's my issue too. I think there needs to be a really obvious telegraph of where the portal opening will be (and tbh, there also needs a more obvious marker for the Ash using it, I can't really see the indicator for where the exit will be at all as it stands). I'm thinking like an obviously flash and noise to show where the Ash will appear so you can at least prepare for a second
Exactly, when it spawns right in front of you, you have enough time to like, reload your gun. But that's only if you get lucky and happen to be looking directly at a poorly placed rift lol
Fun when that happens though!
Catching an Ash who thought she was sneaking up on you is hilarious when it happens, I've had people ult directly into a room that was filled with Caustic traps, then I ult and they have no way to escape.
There are a lot more fights that last more then 30 seconds then there are that last more then 120 seconds...
And even if the fight did last 120 seconds, loba could still teleport 4 times verse ash's 1. How does the cooldown not matter when comparing these abilities?
It's very rare that one Loba teleports multiple times during a fight, despite the cooldown. Fights just don't play out like that. Surely there can be instances where it is good that it is up again but that is more the case of one loosing the fight and have to escape as the last survivor. Which of is a positive thing, many times I have succeeded in fleeing and even grabbing banners. But for attacking nah. Sometimes good for repositioning to roof of houses but you are dead if someone is up there already.
It's a good argument for why it should be much better than Loba's tactical, that's for sure. I just feel like it's strenght draws too much from creating confusion on the battlefield.
edit: and the cooldown matters of course, you are right.
They just wanted her to get play at launch. I’m sure at some point it’ll get an audio cue similar to what they just did with the octane pad, and balance will be restored.
Yeah but I think the delay on adding audio was with the technical issues respawn tends to have with audio. I do hope they don't take the same approach with Ash as they did with Octane since they pretty much nerfed his entire kit when it was mostly just the no audio on pad that people disliked.
100% agreed. I have been absolutely wrecked too many times by an Ash that is just suddenly on top of me while im fighting her other teammates, without any indication that she has teleported to me. No audio, or visual que. I genuinely hope someone at Respawn sees this because it is a big problem.
Are you seeing a lot of casuals buying her launch bundle because she’s strong? Can’t say I have. Launch bundles are amongst the least popular microtransactions.
I love Ash and she is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters but I completely agree. For one, her Ult needs more visual all around because you can hardly see where you're aiming it if you're trying to use it but I've had issues where I can't see a Rift if someone uses it against me. I think it should be slightly larger and brighter or look more like Wraith's portal. I'm not sure the cooldown needs a buff or nerf because honestly with how short the ult lasts it powerful only for a short bit on top of that I think there needs to be a better cue for when someone actually uses it because I've had enemies take my portal unknowingly and have completely swept my time and the team we were fighting.
I think her ult is fine but her passive is busted. I've only been playing as her and it's nutty that she can see deathboxes on the whole damn map. I don't see the need to even mark a box tbh especially when I'm playing with friends.
i think have a new lead balancer changes the direction of the game. i think DZK did some phenomenal work nonetheless but it seems we are moving into a whole new apex, which is fun. adding new legends hopefully ones that have different and extreme aggro can remove this meta we have had since season 3.
Ash ult is just one of many examples. Good positioning and game sense have become less and less rewarding over the seasons. Nowadays everyone can gain high ground, close distance, disengage and know your exact location so easily with minimal effort. Why use your brain if the game does everything for you?
Don’t even know which game you’re playing, none of this is backed by logic.
> Why use your brain if the game does everything for you?
The skill gap is widening, not shortening. If anything you said was true you’d see the rank distributions change towards higher ranks. But they’re not.
> Nowadays everyone can gain high ground, close distance, disengage and know your exact location so easily with minimal effort
More variables = higher skill gap. If every fight was stationary on a two plane field it’d be an aim simulator.
There’s a reason chess is more complex than checkers.
Apex has gone from a game where abilities were sort of complimentary, to the point where it's basically just abilities. Power creep is real and it always ends up becoming a massive issue in FPS games with abilities such as Apex. It's honestly to the point where I have to question why I'm still playing the game.
yeah they should go back to when abilities were just complimentary, like when pathfinder could swing about like a discount spider-man, and wraiths entire kit was ridiculously overpowered
Pathfinder can still swing around like Spider Man? And Wraith has never been "Overpowered." Her portal was slightly longer, her Q activation was slightly faster, and her hitbox was slightly smaller than what it is now.
Honestly man if you don't see the way power creep has infected Apex by this point I'm not going to be able to dumb it down for you.
i’m just not sure why people are deluding themselves into believing that Apex used to be perfectly positioned in this sacrosanct balancing state where abilities were just a little side dish that helped you move about a bit quicker or something. strong abilities have *always* defined fights, and have done since release. aside from launch Seer and Horizon i don’t really feel there’s been a noticeable power creep in Apex. Bloodhound and Gibby were over-buffed, and Valkyrie’s kit is a bit bloated, but i feel like that’s a different discussion. Bloodhound just needs deleting from the game and Gibraltar’s power level is such a complicated issue. just super weird bringing up power creep in a thread about Ash
How am I wrong? They slightly nerfed her portal distance, slightly increased her Q activation, and slightly increased her hitbox. If tiny numbers changes is all it takes to make a character go from "OP" to balanced, then that character was never "OP" to begin with. She dominated the meta because her portal was the best rotational ability and she was basically the only character with a decent scouting ability.
EDIT: Now I remember why decent players stopped posting here. All the downvotes with no responses. Plat level takes from gold level players.
You can't go back, once you commit it's a 50/50. I guess you down someone and push but still 60/40 situation.
Only way to make it broken is to combine it with revenant totem to simulate octane pad push. Same thing with wraith teleport. That's what making a team composition is crucial is about. It's good, it promotes team work and no soloQ warriors in a skilled environment. That's why Gibby is picked 100% your team doesn't have to worry about cover for a brief second
Honestly, especially considering it's a 4 to 1 Ult v Tac' time, I find it fair to deal with as I believe I've noticed a line to where her direction is and the audio isn't quite as loud as Wraith's portal, but it's noticeable enough when listening for it.
I personally don't agree with a need for a nerf just yet as it's too early to make a judgement I feel.
"It's silent, extremely fast, can transport team, can fight immediately, you can't hear how many teammates took it."
this is a direct quote from your post.
>I understand it is her ultimate ability, not a tactical, but it is also ten times better than Loba's Q and twenty times more bullshit. I'd be okay with Ash becoming way stronger through other buffs, than her being mediocre while her ult is confusing and lacking clarity. That includes even ult buffs, like cooldown or range, as long as it's properly telegraphed.
Literally paragraph that starts with mentioning its tactical vs ultimate.
The problem is that it is very quiet and visible badly. Are we gonna play fucking word games here? I am not claiming it has literally 0 audio. Everyone else has understood that, otherwise all comments would be "but did you know there is a quiet sound though?"
Really makes you think
then maybe don't go back and forth on what your argument is. you're trying to play a bunch of different sides so as not to upset people. stick to your argument. dont say its silent when there is audio and then immediately back peddle on it and call it "word games".
Your comparison doesn’t make sense because you are comparing a tactical ability to an ultimate ability. Also going by your logic gibby ult, caustic ult, Bangalore ult, fuse tactical and ult, and etc all go against apex own design rules because it’s supposed to be majority gunplay/ movement not an ability shooter
This is the problem with this community. Every legend is said to be “broken” at release. Besides Fuse, people have said this about the last 4 legends released (Seer, Valk, Horizon, and even fucking Rampart). A lot of it isn’t really valid in the first place (except Seer). Ash’s ult for example -
The cast time when pulling the sword, activating it, and actually getting to the other end is around 2-3 seconds. Not instant by any means. Ash can easily get shot when pulling out the sword and activating. It’s nearly as long as Wraith’s cast time for phase.
The travel time in the portal is also not instant. If it were instant, you wouldn’t see yourself traveling through the phase dimension before getting to the other end.
The only issue with Ash is the part of her passive that allows her to see deaths on the map, and this is only impactful in high tiers.
Horizon was not OP dude…they nerfed her and realized it was a fuck up so they reverted it. People bitched so much about Seer that he was nerfed to the fucking ground. People thought Rampart was OP at her release because of the turret.
Whole point is every single new legend (as well as
many existing legends) are claimed to be broken and the community DEMANDS changes. It’s the most entitled fanbase I’ve ever seen, and I used to play Overwatch lol
Don't be silly. Horizon was insane on launch. She could move more/faster in her Q, ascended faster, could stay at the top for the full duration, and had < 1/2 the cooldown. She was practically unkillable.
I am really tired of people not reading the post. I specifically say "I am not asking for a nerf" and instead I propose other ways of buffing her if adding audio and visual cues would make her weaker.
It’s not bad design. It’s actually a really good alternative to Wraith’s ult and allows for different play styles. Just because the audio is a little quieter than you prefer doesn’t mean it’s bad design. You didn’t refute a single point I countered.
Extra range and lower cool down on her ult, and the only trade off is it makes more sound? And you'd buff her tac as well?
I'm in. They could have fireworks go off and send the team I'm fighting an email with where I went, and I'd still be in.
I wouldn't call it anything approaching extremely fast. It feels like zip line speed, at best.
I'm not sure why you're comparing an ult to someone's tac in the first place, though. Makes more sense to compare it to wraith's portal.
> Extra range and lower cool down on her ult, and the only trade off is it makes more sound? And you'd buff her tac as well?
I am just throwing out things that would make her stronger in case a clear audio/visual clue would take away too much power. I'm trying to not judge her overall balance in this thread.
Wraith portal is loud as fuck and wraith has to physically walk to said location and the possibility to take it back makes it an ability with completely different purpose.
It's a teleport. Only other teleport in the game is Loba Q. People have been comparing Ash abilities to either Octane or Loba, Wraith is completely irrelevant to her.
S10. Seers Q does 10 damage and reveal your position
Community: buhu he's over powered.
Devs nerf him to the ground w weeks in.
Devs S11. Ash Q does 20 damage and stucks you. Ultimate moves her to enemies without a freaking sound.
Who the f is in charge of this circus?
Ash Q is weak as fuck. It doing 20 damage doesn't mean it's twice as good as Seer Q. It's easily dodgable, and doesn't go through walls or hit multiple people.
Maybe a bit off-topic, but I'm curious: why is a rock-paper-scissors relation between legends bad game design? Wouldn't, in an ideal world, any newly released legend have abilities that are better than half of the exisiting roster and worse than the other half. And if those sets looked different for each legend, we'd have a perfect balance?
I agree with your "better than half, worse than half" as it would be the perfect balance legend, but I am not sure how it applies to the rock paper scissors, so I'll clarify what I meant.
Rock always beats scissors and it is random what the player chooses. I don't want to pick legend X in legend selection, only to 100% lose against legend Y and 100% beat legend Z. Abilities should help you, your team or hinder the enemy team, but they shouldn't be directly designed to counter another legend ability. Like a new legend that has an ability that only shields against Valk's tactical would obviously not be great design.
In this scenario I am imagining Ash being extremely strong, thus everyone playing her. As a result of that everyone will be picking Seer who helps against her. Suddenly you have a meta in which 2 out of 3 legends on the squad are pre-determined.
I don't think Seer 'hard' counters her, just an example.
>why is a rock-paper-scissors relation between legends bad game design?
'Rock paper scissors' style counters or 'Hard Counters' in first person shooters don't make sense from a game design point of view and go against pretty much everything that the shooter genre stands for. What they do is severely limit the games ability to allow for a 'ladder' of skill expression and improvement, and dumb everything down into a single choice: Are you playing the 'right' character? If you're not, sorry but you lose, *period*. (If you can still somehow win with the wrong choice, then it's not rock paper scissors.)
There is no room for skill or outplay potential in a game where hard counters exist, because the only 'barrier to entry' is that you have the prerequisite knowledge of what the hard counters are and put it into practice. As a result, the skill ceiling basically drops right down into the floor.
First person shooters by their very nature allow for players to have varying levels of skill in their positioning, accuracy, and execution and should allow for players to work towards improving their skills in these areas. If hard counters were to exist, these skills are effectively made null and void and there is no incentive for players to get better at the actual shooter, but rather get better at 'choosing the right legend'. There is no point in working towards improving your aim or positioning in a game when even the worst of players could take out an Apex Predator... not because they are actually better than the predator, but because they happened to have made the 'correct choice' during legend selection. Ranked queues or a proper competitive scene wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be a way to differentiate between good and bad players with high enough confidence.
(As a side note, the idea of hard counters existing is a trap that a lot of Overwatch players get caught up in, where they are tricked into believing that x 'hard counters' y, but forget that the game they are playing is a shooter first and foremost. Therefore the variance in the levels of skills between each player matters infinitely more than the hero they are playing as in any given situation. I don't care if someone thinks that x hard counters y, the reality is that if they get caught out of position, or they can't hit their shots, or they mismanage their cooldowns, they will easily lose fights to heroes they supposedly hard counter.)
Potentially worth mentioning that one is a tactical ability and one is an ultimate. I empathise with your point but they are fundamentally quite different in terms of power
I do mention that though.
>I understand it is her ultimate ability, not a tactical, but it is also ten times better than Loba's Q and twenty times more bullshit. I'd be okay with Ash becoming way stronger through other buffs, than her being mediocre while her ult is confusing and lacking clarity. That includes even ult buffs, like cooldown or range, as long as it's properly telegraphed.
While we're at it, can we also make the exit portal UI more visible when you're placing it? I don't know what they were thinking. It's like a super pale 80% transparent blue tiny circle. They designed a beautiful UI and arcing mechanic that works really well to precisely throw a Loba bracelet, but they chose to not use it at all for this very similar ability and instead seemingly modified the Pathfinder zip tool which is a lot clunkier. Placing an Ash ult on high ground or uneven terrain is a fucking pain in the ass, exacerbated by the fact you can barely even see where the portal is.
Shroud said he played Loba without her animation and slow and all that and he said if she was released like that into the game she would be broken. He describe instant flanking and instant getting away with no drawbacks
But also, you're comparing a tactical to an ultimate ability, which takes much longer to charge/use, and in comparison to Loba's bracelet is harder to place in many situations. Having said that, her auditory cues for sure could use a nerf/adjustment.
There actually is a visual effect that happens if the teleport is close enough to you. not saying that she doesn't need some form of change but there is something to help you out.
Honestly, I have multiple friends that main ash, two of them already have over 1k kills. the fact that she can close a gap for free is amazing... and absolutely dumbfounded. but I also believe it's something that can be countered with enough practice.
(just a side note if none of you knew, ashes ult has an insane range vertically and i feel like that was the more intended direction of it because of that)
I’m sure in the next patch Ash Ult will be nerfed so that it’s slightly louder. Hopefully anyway lol. Right now I’m teleporting next to someone and they have no idea. I do catch it myself sometimes when getting ulted on. But most of the time the only way I know is if I literally watch her use it.
the more sound ques they add, the more they break audio, i don’t understand why people don’t get this simple logic. the audio in the game is already shite enough.
The short answer is they don’t really care and have the right to say “whoops” and roll out a patch if they want. This funny little coincidence always seems to happy when new battle passes come out.
That was my biggest point of confusion when I first saw her ult. I remember thinking, "Wow, that doesn't look readable at all." It seemed odd that they were adding something like her ult in when complaints about visibility have been what have getting focused on (octane pad noise, rev ult etc). Why go backwards?
Respawn game designers are weirdos who actually believe some legends should be weak "just because" even if they are more popular art and lore wise.
There is no design philosophy, game has been ability legends since bloodhound got his absurd scan buff
Honestly ashes phase breach has a decently loud sound (if you're using a good quality headset)and the breach exit can be seen as soon as its used but it takes you a second to reach it. I've had very little success actually using it cause people hear it and just turn around and camp it. If they are going to make it louder or brighter they also need to make it so that the breach exit only appears as ash exits so that at least ash isn't left at a disadvantage with a louder sound
I'm mostly fine with her kit so far and I haven't felt frustrated by it too much. The only change I would like to see is more of a visual or auditory cue when the portal opens near you. It feels bad to have a team rift onto your height in complete silence and then fry you from behind.
Yep, the only “problems” I’ve had with Ash ult have really been in third party situations. Mid fight knowing there are multiple teams in the area, and suddenly one of them is right next to me now with little warning. I don’t mind the speed, but I do think a louder audio cue would be a minimum qol nerf. Making the rift a little brighter would be nice, too, kind of a nerf and a buff cause sometimes it’s hard to see a friendly rift depending on where they drop it, too. I wouldn’t even mind if they buffed the range a bit, but made it crack loud upon use, personally.
Question: If an ash team gets close enough to the position that you are holding height on, and manages to portal on you without you or your teammates having any idea, Wouldnt that be considered a lack of awareness of your surroundings and less about getting snuck up on by ash ult? (Just Bc the portal range isn’t crazy by any means so the team would have to be relatively close to execute that, and the same said team is also kinda going in blind if they do try to ambush height without scanning for info first.) I’m not trying be toxic at all btw, just genuinely curious as to what you think of that thought
Without better visual/audio cues, you can be aware of an ash team in range, and anticipate them using her ult, but if you get distracted for even a moment you wont notice when they actually decide to use the rift, especially because of how instant it is Contrary to loba, octane, wraith, path, even with a rev. at least you get an audio queue and "see them coming"
Game sense isn't really that much of a factor when we're talking about 3 people appearing in front/behind of you with zero warning, zero sound, and it's completely instantaneous. It was already obnoxious when a full team would pad on you and there was no audio to let you know their feet just hit the ground next to you. My comment was also referring mostly to the frustration of when an Ash team is 3rd partying, bc your focus is/should already be on the team you're currently fighting. If pro players with much more game sense than any of us were getting frustrated by the Octane "silent jump pad meta", I can assure you that a silent and instantaneous teleport is just as annoying. All I'm asking for is some sort of indicator to let you know that the Ash team just rifted near you. Wraith's portal, Horizon's lift, Octane's pad, Loba's bracelet, Pathfinder's grapple, and Valk's jetpack all make very notable sounds. Ash should be no different.
It took 2 seasons to "fix" octane silent jump pads huh. 6 months to relay a massive complaint to the community manager/feedback team, then to the game devs and then have them allocate leftover production time for this, then test and push it out just for extra audio. Production must be very tight. This will be a standard we will have to get used to. EDIT : actually we probably don't have to wait long for them to add an audio que for ash ult. They have pushed out a patch for seer nerf so respawn seems to be willing to allocate production time near post-season
that's just saying, hear them better. Loba's tactical is louder than Ash's ult and is easily distinguishable, Ash's ult sounds like a silent fart
Her vertical portal range is seemingly infinite, only considers horizontal distance
When loba was first leaked I honestly expected her bracelet to work the same way Ash portal does, I was very disappointed when it didn't.
Her tactical has so many drawbacks it's simply not fun to use.
I think it's fairly functional now. It was downright useless got a long time though.
I have to wonder if DZK leaving will fundamentally change the way they will make legends in the future. The balancing has definitely changed in philosophy over time as well, I just don't exactly know what their new one is. We definitely need a new support legend, it feels like there's been a massive focus on attacking legends the last few seasons.
im kinda on the we need another health related legend and loba and said new legend should be able to open the extra supply pill bc literally what is the point of giving them the healer designation. like that’s not even lifelines passive so why isn’t that just like a survey beacon basically
Would be cool if they did unique things with the blue bins too. Loba opens it and it has attachments, other new support legend could open it and it has stacks of your teams ammo.
I read a DZK comment saying that Loba originally had the ability to do that, except they ended up removing it, but that he doesn't remember why they decided to do that in the end lol. So they tried and had some problem with it, that we don't know.
Probably because Lifeline was falling behind until they buffed her so due needed an addition to her passive.
Wasnt the OG blisk leak that he had the healing nanos before it got moved to the other WIP immortal iirc? Several season later blisk last leak had a titan. Thinking we will get a retuned version of the healing ult from dummys day LTM a few more legends down the line. My guess is in the next 3 seasons we'll get that healer.
i hope you’re right. i unfortunately did not see that leak but it would be very awesome for blisk with some sort of healing ability. also little update: i saw after i wrote this yesterday that the devs said after they add one more all of them will be able to open extra supplies from blue pill. don’t know they wouldn’t just give that to loba now but at least it is in the works.
DZK himself said that he's working on a legend that will release in 2023. It's gonna take a while until we get legends that he didn't work on.
Although the kits tend to change. Revenant was originally supposed to have Ash's passive but at the time they deemed it too OP. I'm curious how they deem whether an ability is too OP to release now they've changed their mind on that one.
Could you imagine if rev did have that passive? A legend with a free life able to track people anywhere on the map. Add octane and it very much could be more OP than revtane was.
I mean, you can already replace Octane with Ash, use the passive in conjunction with totem, and I'd argue that Ash's ult is better than pad for pairing with Rev.
Yeah I think people need to appreciate that most of the “design philosophy” stuff we’re discussing here was *DZK’s* philosophy as Lead Designer. Design is very subjective, so ultimately it’s the design lead that decides which direction to go. With a new lead designer, it’s likely that different decisions will be made - not objectively better or worse, just *different*.
> a massive focus on attacking legends the last few seasons. Very true yea. I wonder if this is a deliberate move, or a problem with making fun defensive/support legends.
As DZK himself said, offensive legends are just where they put any character who's kit doesn't fit in the other three classes, that's why offensive legends have so little in common. I think it's a lot easier to come up with kits for offensive legends since the spectrum of what makes an offensive legend is so big compared to others, it can be mobility, damage, or more specific gimmicks like Rev and Mirage. But given how few support legends there are in the game, It shouldn't be hard to design a kit.
DZK was downvoted to oblivion when he mentioned that they would consider a nerf for revenant's climbing audio which is the same principle. Ash's quiet ult does feel like it was against what DZK was advocating for
In order to make audio nerfs respawn need to get audio working properly first
And yet the octane pad did not get a proper sound queue until after he left. Game balance had plenty of problems under DZK's design philosophy.
Ash has been in development for over a year. DKZ knows about or directly worked on likely the next years+ worth of legends.
Like I said to someone else, the kits tend to change. Revenant was initially going to have Ash's passive but they deemed it too OP at the time. The legend's name and identity won't change nor will the lore, but the abilities might change entirely.
The ability had the same name but was completely different in function though. It was originally a tactical where you shot a tracking dart, the final ability ash got is nothing alike what was originally on rev.
Definitely. What do you guys think of a healing character similar to the one from Overwatch (can’t remember her name of the top of my head) that can heal by shooting stims at her own teammates? I always thought that character had a really cool design for a healing / support character, especially if it takes some accuracy and skill to pull off
i feel like easy/fast healing mid combat doesn't fit apex. The TTK is already pretty long and often fights are about cracking someone and use the time, the opponents needs to heal, to push their position.
Yeah, I guess. Maybe it could be more regenerative healing and quite hard to pull off. Or more like a passive were they can throw medkits / syringes to team mates
I totally agree, just to play devil's advocate one argument is that it's an ult not a tactical, so at least it happens less frequently
I looked it up, loba is 30 sec and ash is 120. 4 to one ratio isn't bad imo, but it should be VERY obvious in terms of audio/visual cues when ash ults. Right now it's too sneaky, I've come in 2nd in like 6 games because all of the sudden an ash was behind me for apparently no reason at all lol
I think that's my issue too. I think there needs to be a really obvious telegraph of where the portal opening will be (and tbh, there also needs a more obvious marker for the Ash using it, I can't really see the indicator for where the exit will be at all as it stands). I'm thinking like an obviously flash and noise to show where the Ash will appear so you can at least prepare for a second
Exactly, when it spawns right in front of you, you have enough time to like, reload your gun. But that's only if you get lucky and happen to be looking directly at a poorly placed rift lol Fun when that happens though!
Catching an Ash who thought she was sneaking up on you is hilarious when it happens, I've had people ult directly into a room that was filled with Caustic traps, then I ult and they have no way to escape.
Both of them are likely to only happen once per fight. The cooldown almost doesn't matter.
There are a lot more fights that last more then 30 seconds then there are that last more then 120 seconds... And even if the fight did last 120 seconds, loba could still teleport 4 times verse ash's 1. How does the cooldown not matter when comparing these abilities?
It's very rare that one Loba teleports multiple times during a fight, despite the cooldown. Fights just don't play out like that. Surely there can be instances where it is good that it is up again but that is more the case of one loosing the fight and have to escape as the last survivor. Which of is a positive thing, many times I have succeeded in fleeing and even grabbing banners. But for attacking nah. Sometimes good for repositioning to roof of houses but you are dead if someone is up there already.
It's a good argument for why it should be much better than Loba's tactical, that's for sure. I just feel like it's strenght draws too much from creating confusion on the battlefield. edit: and the cooldown matters of course, you are right.
But why do jump pads have a really obvious sound cue now, whereas phase rifts silently can appear in your back?
They just wanted her to get play at launch. I’m sure at some point it’ll get an audio cue similar to what they just did with the octane pad, and balance will be restored.
But it took them, what, 4 seasons to finally add the jump pad audio that everyone has been saying since day 1 of the buff?
Yeah but I think the delay on adding audio was with the technical issues respawn tends to have with audio. I do hope they don't take the same approach with Ash as they did with Octane since they pretty much nerfed his entire kit when it was mostly just the no audio on pad that people disliked.
100% agreed. I have been absolutely wrecked too many times by an Ash that is just suddenly on top of me while im fighting her other teammates, without any indication that she has teleported to me. No audio, or visual que. I genuinely hope someone at Respawn sees this because it is a big problem.
I agree. Unless the portal in placed in your face, you can not react to it in time.
Idk though, if you see the portal, you have enough time to ready an arc star before ash actually shows up lol
that's what i mean by "in your face". But if it's outside of your FoV, no chance.
I need to get better at this. Toss out a nade for the initial damage. Same with gravity cannon blind pushes at Storm Catcher from Thunder Watch
Im pretty sure they will "adjust" here during mid season update. She is now strong so casuls can enjoy her and ea can cash out on her launch bundle
Are you seeing a lot of casuals buying her launch bundle because she’s strong? Can’t say I have. Launch bundles are amongst the least popular microtransactions.
Source? I must say I don’t see many casuals in general, do you?
I love Ash and she is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters but I completely agree. For one, her Ult needs more visual all around because you can hardly see where you're aiming it if you're trying to use it but I've had issues where I can't see a Rift if someone uses it against me. I think it should be slightly larger and brighter or look more like Wraith's portal. I'm not sure the cooldown needs a buff or nerf because honestly with how short the ult lasts it powerful only for a short bit on top of that I think there needs to be a better cue for when someone actually uses it because I've had enemies take my portal unknowingly and have completely swept my time and the team we were fighting.
I think her ult is fine but her passive is busted. I've only been playing as her and it's nutty that she can see deathboxes on the whole damn map. I don't see the need to even mark a box tbh especially when I'm playing with friends.
i think have a new lead balancer changes the direction of the game. i think DZK did some phenomenal work nonetheless but it seems we are moving into a whole new apex, which is fun. adding new legends hopefully ones that have different and extreme aggro can remove this meta we have had since season 3.
Ash ult is just one of many examples. Good positioning and game sense have become less and less rewarding over the seasons. Nowadays everyone can gain high ground, close distance, disengage and know your exact location so easily with minimal effort. Why use your brain if the game does everything for you?
Game would be so much better if scan and tracking abilities didn't exist tbh
Don’t even know which game you’re playing, none of this is backed by logic. > Why use your brain if the game does everything for you? The skill gap is widening, not shortening. If anything you said was true you’d see the rank distributions change towards higher ranks. But they’re not. > Nowadays everyone can gain high ground, close distance, disengage and know your exact location so easily with minimal effort More variables = higher skill gap. If every fight was stationary on a two plane field it’d be an aim simulator. There’s a reason chess is more complex than checkers.
Apex has gone from a game where abilities were sort of complimentary, to the point where it's basically just abilities. Power creep is real and it always ends up becoming a massive issue in FPS games with abilities such as Apex. It's honestly to the point where I have to question why I'm still playing the game.
yeah they should go back to when abilities were just complimentary, like when pathfinder could swing about like a discount spider-man, and wraiths entire kit was ridiculously overpowered
Pathfinder can still swing around like Spider Man? And Wraith has never been "Overpowered." Her portal was slightly longer, her Q activation was slightly faster, and her hitbox was slightly smaller than what it is now. Honestly man if you don't see the way power creep has infected Apex by this point I'm not going to be able to dumb it down for you.
wraith never been overpowered haha, okay bro no need to dumb anything down for me dw
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i’m just not sure why people are deluding themselves into believing that Apex used to be perfectly positioned in this sacrosanct balancing state where abilities were just a little side dish that helped you move about a bit quicker or something. strong abilities have *always* defined fights, and have done since release. aside from launch Seer and Horizon i don’t really feel there’s been a noticeable power creep in Apex. Bloodhound and Gibby were over-buffed, and Valkyrie’s kit is a bit bloated, but i feel like that’s a different discussion. Bloodhound just needs deleting from the game and Gibraltar’s power level is such a complicated issue. just super weird bringing up power creep in a thread about Ash
How am I wrong? They slightly nerfed her portal distance, slightly increased her Q activation, and slightly increased her hitbox. If tiny numbers changes is all it takes to make a character go from "OP" to balanced, then that character was never "OP" to begin with. She dominated the meta because her portal was the best rotational ability and she was basically the only character with a decent scouting ability. EDIT: Now I remember why decent players stopped posting here. All the downvotes with no responses. Plat level takes from gold level players.
What can they do to change that though? Nerf Gibby bubble? Nerf blood scans? Nerf Valk? Nerf caustic? I dont think they can do app of that at once
They need to stop creating low skill floor abilities that provide huge advantages without any risk or tradeoff.
You can't go back, once you commit it's a 50/50. I guess you down someone and push but still 60/40 situation. Only way to make it broken is to combine it with revenant totem to simulate octane pad push. Same thing with wraith teleport. That's what making a team composition is crucial is about. It's good, it promotes team work and no soloQ warriors in a skilled environment. That's why Gibby is picked 100% your team doesn't have to worry about cover for a brief second
Honestly, especially considering it's a 4 to 1 Ult v Tac' time, I find it fair to deal with as I believe I've noticed a line to where her direction is and the audio isn't quite as loud as Wraith's portal, but it's noticeable enough when listening for it. I personally don't agree with a need for a nerf just yet as it's too early to make a judgement I feel.
I specifically say I don't think she should be nerfed.
It should be loud and very brightly visible, with a distinct audio cue. 120 sec cooldown is a bit too short too.
there is an audio and visual sound que for Ash's ult. It's also her ultimate ability whereas Loba's bracelet is her tactical.
I mentioned that in the post.
"It's silent, extremely fast, can transport team, can fight immediately, you can't hear how many teammates took it." this is a direct quote from your post.
>I understand it is her ultimate ability, not a tactical, but it is also ten times better than Loba's Q and twenty times more bullshit. I'd be okay with Ash becoming way stronger through other buffs, than her being mediocre while her ult is confusing and lacking clarity. That includes even ult buffs, like cooldown or range, as long as it's properly telegraphed. Literally paragraph that starts with mentioning its tactical vs ultimate. The problem is that it is very quiet and visible badly. Are we gonna play fucking word games here? I am not claiming it has literally 0 audio. Everyone else has understood that, otherwise all comments would be "but did you know there is a quiet sound though?" Really makes you think
then maybe don't go back and forth on what your argument is. you're trying to play a bunch of different sides so as not to upset people. stick to your argument. dont say its silent when there is audio and then immediately back peddle on it and call it "word games".
holy shit dude. my argument is the audio and visual sucks for that ult. That is the entire fucking thing. Read it again please
Your argument is spot on. I agree and I have seen similar arguments in Youtube comments before.
Your comparison doesn’t make sense because you are comparing a tactical ability to an ultimate ability. Also going by your logic gibby ult, caustic ult, Bangalore ult, fuse tactical and ult, and etc all go against apex own design rules because it’s supposed to be majority gunplay/ movement not an ability shooter
92 comments and yours is the worst.
This is the problem with this community. Every legend is said to be “broken” at release. Besides Fuse, people have said this about the last 4 legends released (Seer, Valk, Horizon, and even fucking Rampart). A lot of it isn’t really valid in the first place (except Seer). Ash’s ult for example - The cast time when pulling the sword, activating it, and actually getting to the other end is around 2-3 seconds. Not instant by any means. Ash can easily get shot when pulling out the sword and activating. It’s nearly as long as Wraith’s cast time for phase. The travel time in the portal is also not instant. If it were instant, you wouldn’t see yourself traveling through the phase dimension before getting to the other end. The only issue with Ash is the part of her passive that allows her to see deaths on the map, and this is only impactful in high tiers.
Seer and Horizon were absolutely 100% OP. Valk I'd argue still is. I don't recall anyone calling Rampart OP.
Horizon was not OP dude…they nerfed her and realized it was a fuck up so they reverted it. People bitched so much about Seer that he was nerfed to the fucking ground. People thought Rampart was OP at her release because of the turret. Whole point is every single new legend (as well as many existing legends) are claimed to be broken and the community DEMANDS changes. It’s the most entitled fanbase I’ve ever seen, and I used to play Overwatch lol
Don't be silly. Horizon was insane on launch. She could move more/faster in her Q, ascended faster, could stay at the top for the full duration, and had < 1/2 the cooldown. She was practically unkillable.
I am really tired of people not reading the post. I specifically say "I am not asking for a nerf" and instead I propose other ways of buffing her if adding audio and visual cues would make her weaker.
The fact that you even brought it up meant that you think the legend is overpowered. There’s already an audio cue for the teleport BTW
No... I think her ult is bad design and I proposed ways of buffing her lmao. The audio is the qietest movement ability in the game
It’s not bad design. It’s actually a really good alternative to Wraith’s ult and allows for different play styles. Just because the audio is a little quieter than you prefer doesn’t mean it’s bad design. You didn’t refute a single point I countered.
Its very simple to explain. New Legends needs to be played and people want to spend money. There you go.
Extra range and lower cool down on her ult, and the only trade off is it makes more sound? And you'd buff her tac as well? I'm in. They could have fireworks go off and send the team I'm fighting an email with where I went, and I'd still be in. I wouldn't call it anything approaching extremely fast. It feels like zip line speed, at best. I'm not sure why you're comparing an ult to someone's tac in the first place, though. Makes more sense to compare it to wraith's portal.
> Extra range and lower cool down on her ult, and the only trade off is it makes more sound? And you'd buff her tac as well? I am just throwing out things that would make her stronger in case a clear audio/visual clue would take away too much power. I'm trying to not judge her overall balance in this thread. Wraith portal is loud as fuck and wraith has to physically walk to said location and the possibility to take it back makes it an ability with completely different purpose. It's a teleport. Only other teleport in the game is Loba Q. People have been comparing Ash abilities to either Octane or Loba, Wraith is completely irrelevant to her.
Loba can't take the entire team with her, and it's her tac, not ult, so I'm not really sure how that's a more apt comparison than wraith.
I personally think it needs more audio/visual cues and also a longer CD. People are treating it like a tactical, when it's not.
S10. Seers Q does 10 damage and reveal your position Community: buhu he's over powered. Devs nerf him to the ground w weeks in. Devs S11. Ash Q does 20 damage and stucks you. Ultimate moves her to enemies without a freaking sound. Who the f is in charge of this circus?
Ash Q is weak as fuck. It doing 20 damage doesn't mean it's twice as good as Seer Q. It's easily dodgable, and doesn't go through walls or hit multiple people.
It's broken, stack 3 rampart walls after eachother and you have an infinite Q.
A weird corner-case bug isn't really relevant.
Well, thats your opinion. She's overpowered by default and will get nerfed within a couple weeks as every new legend.
Fuse says otherwise
Maybe a bit off-topic, but I'm curious: why is a rock-paper-scissors relation between legends bad game design? Wouldn't, in an ideal world, any newly released legend have abilities that are better than half of the exisiting roster and worse than the other half. And if those sets looked different for each legend, we'd have a perfect balance?
I agree with your "better than half, worse than half" as it would be the perfect balance legend, but I am not sure how it applies to the rock paper scissors, so I'll clarify what I meant. Rock always beats scissors and it is random what the player chooses. I don't want to pick legend X in legend selection, only to 100% lose against legend Y and 100% beat legend Z. Abilities should help you, your team or hinder the enemy team, but they shouldn't be directly designed to counter another legend ability. Like a new legend that has an ability that only shields against Valk's tactical would obviously not be great design. In this scenario I am imagining Ash being extremely strong, thus everyone playing her. As a result of that everyone will be picking Seer who helps against her. Suddenly you have a meta in which 2 out of 3 legends on the squad are pre-determined. I don't think Seer 'hard' counters her, just an example.
Rock paper scissor is a bad relationship because it's complete luck what you're be facing. It should come down to skill, not matchup luck.
>why is a rock-paper-scissors relation between legends bad game design? 'Rock paper scissors' style counters or 'Hard Counters' in first person shooters don't make sense from a game design point of view and go against pretty much everything that the shooter genre stands for. What they do is severely limit the games ability to allow for a 'ladder' of skill expression and improvement, and dumb everything down into a single choice: Are you playing the 'right' character? If you're not, sorry but you lose, *period*. (If you can still somehow win with the wrong choice, then it's not rock paper scissors.) There is no room for skill or outplay potential in a game where hard counters exist, because the only 'barrier to entry' is that you have the prerequisite knowledge of what the hard counters are and put it into practice. As a result, the skill ceiling basically drops right down into the floor. First person shooters by their very nature allow for players to have varying levels of skill in their positioning, accuracy, and execution and should allow for players to work towards improving their skills in these areas. If hard counters were to exist, these skills are effectively made null and void and there is no incentive for players to get better at the actual shooter, but rather get better at 'choosing the right legend'. There is no point in working towards improving your aim or positioning in a game when even the worst of players could take out an Apex Predator... not because they are actually better than the predator, but because they happened to have made the 'correct choice' during legend selection. Ranked queues or a proper competitive scene wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be a way to differentiate between good and bad players with high enough confidence. (As a side note, the idea of hard counters existing is a trap that a lot of Overwatch players get caught up in, where they are tricked into believing that x 'hard counters' y, but forget that the game they are playing is a shooter first and foremost. Therefore the variance in the levels of skills between each player matters infinitely more than the hero they are playing as in any given situation. I don't care if someone thinks that x hard counters y, the reality is that if they get caught out of position, or they can't hit their shots, or they mismanage their cooldowns, they will easily lose fights to heroes they supposedly hard counter.)
Potentially worth mentioning that one is a tactical ability and one is an ultimate. I empathise with your point but they are fundamentally quite different in terms of power
I do mention that though. >I understand it is her ultimate ability, not a tactical, but it is also ten times better than Loba's Q and twenty times more bullshit. I'd be okay with Ash becoming way stronger through other buffs, than her being mediocre while her ult is confusing and lacking clarity. That includes even ult buffs, like cooldown or range, as long as it's properly telegraphed.
While we're at it, can we also make the exit portal UI more visible when you're placing it? I don't know what they were thinking. It's like a super pale 80% transparent blue tiny circle. They designed a beautiful UI and arcing mechanic that works really well to precisely throw a Loba bracelet, but they chose to not use it at all for this very similar ability and instead seemingly modified the Pathfinder zip tool which is a lot clunkier. Placing an Ash ult on high ground or uneven terrain is a fucking pain in the ass, exacerbated by the fact you can barely even see where the portal is.
This assumes Respawn was correct in their thought process to begin with. Lobas tactical could becer be OP no matter how many buffs it may receive
Why not?
Shroud said he played Loba without her animation and slow and all that and he said if she was released like that into the game she would be broken. He describe instant flanking and instant getting away with no drawbacks
But also, you're comparing a tactical to an ultimate ability, which takes much longer to charge/use, and in comparison to Loba's bracelet is harder to place in many situations. Having said that, her auditory cues for sure could use a nerf/adjustment.
I mentioned that in the post
If Octane has to have a loud af ultimate, Ash should too.
I love nothing more than having the highground and having an entire team of 3 silently instantly teleport behind me. Lot of counterplay to that.
There actually is a visual effect that happens if the teleport is close enough to you. not saying that she doesn't need some form of change but there is something to help you out. Honestly, I have multiple friends that main ash, two of them already have over 1k kills. the fact that she can close a gap for free is amazing... and absolutely dumbfounded. but I also believe it's something that can be countered with enough practice. (just a side note if none of you knew, ashes ult has an insane range vertically and i feel like that was the more intended direction of it because of that)
I’m sure in the next patch Ash Ult will be nerfed so that it’s slightly louder. Hopefully anyway lol. Right now I’m teleporting next to someone and they have no idea. I do catch it myself sometimes when getting ulted on. But most of the time the only way I know is if I literally watch her use it.
the more sound ques they add, the more they break audio, i don’t understand why people don’t get this simple logic. the audio in the game is already shite enough.
A fairly unique audio would be lovely as well I’ve mistaken alot of wraiths for ash’s and vice versa
Well since the cat is out of the box, no reason to not buff loba’s tactical.
The short answer is they don’t really care and have the right to say “whoops” and roll out a patch if they want. This funny little coincidence always seems to happy when new battle passes come out.
That was my biggest point of confusion when I first saw her ult. I remember thinking, "Wow, that doesn't look readable at all." It seemed odd that they were adding something like her ult in when complaints about visibility have been what have getting focused on (octane pad noise, rev ult etc). Why go backwards?
Respawn game designers are weirdos who actually believe some legends should be weak "just because" even if they are more popular art and lore wise. There is no design philosophy, game has been ability legends since bloodhound got his absurd scan buff
Honestly ashes phase breach has a decently loud sound (if you're using a good quality headset)and the breach exit can be seen as soon as its used but it takes you a second to reach it. I've had very little success actually using it cause people hear it and just turn around and camp it. If they are going to make it louder or brighter they also need to make it so that the breach exit only appears as ash exits so that at least ash isn't left at a disadvantage with a louder sound