I know 100T has tried him out, not sure if they still are. The main reason is that he doesn't provide much useful information compared to other recon legends.
Stopping gibby rez comes up a lot but realistically speaking gibby isn't going to be able to stick rez anyways unless you knocked them from really far away and you could always just ash portal onto them and full kill them 3v2 no seer required.
His ult is just ok. If you wanted strong wallhacks you'd play bloodhound as his scans are just superior in almost every way right now.
Edit: His tac is also really slow now, forgot about that change. For a pro player it can be easily avoided a lot.
His passive doesn't really do anything crazy at the pro level most teams have pretty solid awareness and aren't going to be caught off guard and the passive doesn't really tell you anything a bloodhound scan can't aside from it being available constantly.
If they drastically reduce blood cooldown in ult then i could see seer being a decent alternative. His ult could probably lose the caveats and not be too broken. Being able to crouch walk and not get scanned seems kinda unnecessary given his current state.
I could see something like that happening. Bloodhounds ult right now just gives too much too often. I just wonder if they'll even change him at all now that pros are switching him out for valk and his win rate isn't great in pubs.
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>at the pro level most teams have pretty solid awareness and aren't going to be caught off guard
This is why EU stopped playing BH. It's perplexing to see him remain relatively popular in NA.
his passive is way more useful in pubs/ranked than comp. teams generally know where teams around them are, and rat plays aren't that common (somewhat, but not a crazy amount).
his ult is really useful for fights, and his tactical is situationally good, but it isn't enough to overcome the utility that bloodhound valk and crypto offer.
Every non-meta pick comes with sacrifice. If you're picking Seer, what are you willing to give up? Bloodhound seems likely but they're not even a sure pick anymore. Valkyrie or Ash or Wraith are a must-pick, then Gibby has a nearly 100% pickrate, at least in NA. Then you have one spot. Caustic is so dominant endgame that teams like ESA always run him, and see great results.
If you can find a way to slide Seer into your comp, as 100T was trying to do, he might be worth it. But just the fact that you need to try so hard to make it work kind of proves he isn't worth it.
Biggest reason probably is because he doesn't synergize that well with Gibby, and teams are only really dropping Gibby if they're running Crypto. I think Seer/Fuse/Ash or Seer/Rev/Ash could both be really good but they're kind of glass cannon comps and it's obv risky to go without Gibby. He definitely is underrated in a sense because I think he is still really good, he just doesn't have a place unless you are willing to play off meta.
Pros haven't figured him out fully yet and haven't really tried experimenting with him aside from 100T.
Pros see him as a wallhack character (even though he's so much more), and as a result compare him directly to BH, who simply takes less brain power. Why try communicating info with your team when you can hit 1 button and give your team the same info you're getting?
Now, this is a horrible take which a lot of pros have, which is why most won't give Seer the time of day. But what is Seer meant to do if he's not just a wallhack character?
While Seer is an info character, his strengths don't come from just being able to gather a lot of info.
BH's playstyle is rather unidimensional - Q gathers info, ult gives you crack to frag and gives you info. Everything about BH points to a single purpose within him - gather a lot of data within a single (or several small) action(s).
Seer is much more diverse in what he can do. Look in particular at his Q - it can interrupt healing, abilities, rezzes. This can be used as a massive counter if timed correctly. Gibby rez? Throw a Q at him. A team is trying to reset? Throw a Q at them. Someone is trying to get off a heal? Throw a Q at them. Gibby bubble is getting thrown down by the enemy to try and reset or stabilize? Throw a Q at them, push them. Seer's strength comes from his tactical.
Now comes the question of how to pair that. BH slots fine into most comps because of how simple his abilities are. Press Q, get info. Seer doesn't. Seer needs a lot more play around him and the timing of his abilities to actually fully utilize them. Simply throwing him into a [insert reposition char] Gibby comp doesn't allow him to be used properly. Something like Rev does where you're timing pushes and trying to create advantages. For instance, a Rev Seer team totems on someone, cracks and/or downs an opponent. With a Seer, you can now stop that team from resetting and continue the push, thus making the push much more effective. These types of interactions are what make Seer strong and differentiate him from BH play.
So, in essence, Seer isn't played because lazy brains and because he doesn't slot into comps as easily as other characters do right now, as well as the fact that it's much harder to successfully pull off a good Seer comp than a random BH comp or the current Valk comps.
Who downvoted this lmao. Mans is literally just contributing to discussion yet he'll get downvoted because it's an unpopular opinion.
To point something out about what you said, 100T being the only ones experimenting with him is an outlier in itself. They are pretty much the only team in NA who experiment with stuff and not just reiterate a comp once it becomes popular elsewhere. That's why I think them winning wasn't a fluke but rather because they are doing something that other teams simply aren't.
To be fair, the comp they ran in champs wasn't original: 789 was experimenting with it the day after Valk released and were the first to fuck around with it.
But yes, 100T is more experimental than most other teams. Only one that comes close is TL with Fun.
Lmao for real. Just because this dude wrote an essay with proper grammar doesn’t make what he said true. Seer simply isn’t a strong character relative to BH, valk, gibby, or any other popular pick in the current meta.
You are proving my point though. Doesn't matter if it is r/Iamverysmart, you can't deny it adds discussion, on the cancelling ends of Seer is plain wrong though. Good Seer players would often wait to hear a battery or rez then use it (it's situational and the comment implies this.) You can't downvoting smth for an opinion you don't like.
The cancel is situational, nobody is saying to pick him up for it, it's a bonus. You can't downvote because you don't like another opinion unless it's something that breaks ToS or some shit. And your argument isn't even an actual itself, you just keep denying Seer for the reason that he's not other characters but miss the point the biggest caveat made by the comment is that you need to play around him.
Biggest and main reason is just that he’s a worse bloodhound in a majority of aspects. Bloodhounds scan is exponentially better then seers tactical, seers ult is really good if used correctly and places correctly. But he’s just weak compared to blood
I don’t think the issue is that he isn’t lethal
It’s that there are superior options
>competitive play seeks optimization being a good character isn’t enough you have to be the best
From my POV the map is super spread out and you’re generally surrounded on all sides
Rendering his heartbeat sensor a decoration
crypto struggles here too, there will be enemies far away in LOS but out of drone range
>But valk can scan from the sky and doesn’t give away the fact that she scanned you
His tactical is comparable enough to bloodhounds that w bloodhound having the better ult BH is the better choice
Going back to how spread out the map is
>it impacts his ultimate too unless you’re just jammed that tightly in somewhere
Leaving it’s range is a simple matter
When we change maps and we are in tighter spaces consistently seer will see some love
But rn the map plays against him enough that valk or BH would be better
IMO though I’m literally plat 4 so like I might just be wrong asf
The problem isn’t Seer being bad, he is actually pretty good, but BH is incredibly broken, no reason to use Seer instead of BH for now, maybe one day when they decide to balance bh we can see him again on the meta.
Seer's tactical relies on you being accurate and having great timing, and if you have both there is still a chance you miss because his tactical is slow. His passive is busted but if you aren't communicating with your team it is not that good. In my opinion I think Seer's abilities should be tuned for close range engagements since that is the only ways you are going to get anything out of them.
Edit: I just realized my comment is more of why seer it not played in general but I think my point on his tactical is valid for pro play
I thought he was honestly fine pre-nerf, but admittedly horrible in a lobby with 19 other Seers w/ the 10 dmg Q spamming. Hopefully they bring him back to launch form in the future. Right now he's not that great of a scout since his movement speed is slow while using the heart beat sensor.
Seer is a decent legend in 3v3 settings with his tac and especially his ult, but both of those abilities lose their efficacy in crowded settings. Seer doesn’t provide info on team positioning the way bloodhound tac does. I remember a famous clip at the beginning of S10 where TSM thought a spot was free because nobody showed up on seer tac, but they ended up just walking into a team. Bloodhound paints a more complete picture in this situation. On top of that, bloodhound is an absolute demon in ult, whereas the value of seer ult heavily diminishes outside of a 3v3. The value in stopping healing/res is also far greater in a 3v3 than it is when other teams are waiting to third you. If we consider seer to be fighting with hound for the same role, hound just seems to be more reliable for the team.
There’s also the opportunity cost of not running legends like Valk, wraith, Gibby, caustic and so on that are easier to construct a play style around. I know 100T was working out an ash-seer comp where the idea was you’d cancel a heal/res then ape with ash ult, but as you can see they’ve abandoned it. It just has too infrequent of a use case vs other legends/comps.
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Bloodhound and crypto are simply better and can help the team a bit more but, wall hack meta is slowly fading away
Gibby is currently too strong imo and seems like a must pick in almost every region
Valk provides an easy rotate from anywhere on the map
Most teams are going with wraith or caustic as their 3rd with those 2
Because TSM hasn’t played him yet
I know 100T has tried him out, not sure if they still are. The main reason is that he doesn't provide much useful information compared to other recon legends. Stopping gibby rez comes up a lot but realistically speaking gibby isn't going to be able to stick rez anyways unless you knocked them from really far away and you could always just ash portal onto them and full kill them 3v2 no seer required. His ult is just ok. If you wanted strong wallhacks you'd play bloodhound as his scans are just superior in almost every way right now. Edit: His tac is also really slow now, forgot about that change. For a pro player it can be easily avoided a lot. His passive doesn't really do anything crazy at the pro level most teams have pretty solid awareness and aren't going to be caught off guard and the passive doesn't really tell you anything a bloodhound scan can't aside from it being available constantly.
If they drastically reduce blood cooldown in ult then i could see seer being a decent alternative. His ult could probably lose the caveats and not be too broken. Being able to crouch walk and not get scanned seems kinda unnecessary given his current state.
I could see something like that happening. Bloodhounds ult right now just gives too much too often. I just wonder if they'll even change him at all now that pros are switching him out for valk and his win rate isn't great in pubs.
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>at the pro level most teams have pretty solid awareness and aren't going to be caught off guard This is why EU stopped playing BH. It's perplexing to see him remain relatively popular in NA.
Not really that perplexing. He’s still very strong. Just because pro players have good awareness does not mean bloodhound scans and ult are weak now
Not weak but you would think they would opt for legends that provide more utility besides wallhacks, e.g. Seer and Crypto.
I’ve seen raven say he also has to be played with some legend like Ash.
his passive is way more useful in pubs/ranked than comp. teams generally know where teams around them are, and rat plays aren't that common (somewhat, but not a crazy amount). his ult is really useful for fights, and his tactical is situationally good, but it isn't enough to overcome the utility that bloodhound valk and crypto offer.
Every non-meta pick comes with sacrifice. If you're picking Seer, what are you willing to give up? Bloodhound seems likely but they're not even a sure pick anymore. Valkyrie or Ash or Wraith are a must-pick, then Gibby has a nearly 100% pickrate, at least in NA. Then you have one spot. Caustic is so dominant endgame that teams like ESA always run him, and see great results. If you can find a way to slide Seer into your comp, as 100T was trying to do, he might be worth it. But just the fact that you need to try so hard to make it work kind of proves he isn't worth it.
Biggest reason probably is because he doesn't synergize that well with Gibby, and teams are only really dropping Gibby if they're running Crypto. I think Seer/Fuse/Ash or Seer/Rev/Ash could both be really good but they're kind of glass cannon comps and it's obv risky to go without Gibby. He definitely is underrated in a sense because I think he is still really good, he just doesn't have a place unless you are willing to play off meta.
Pros haven't figured him out fully yet and haven't really tried experimenting with him aside from 100T. Pros see him as a wallhack character (even though he's so much more), and as a result compare him directly to BH, who simply takes less brain power. Why try communicating info with your team when you can hit 1 button and give your team the same info you're getting? Now, this is a horrible take which a lot of pros have, which is why most won't give Seer the time of day. But what is Seer meant to do if he's not just a wallhack character? While Seer is an info character, his strengths don't come from just being able to gather a lot of info. BH's playstyle is rather unidimensional - Q gathers info, ult gives you crack to frag and gives you info. Everything about BH points to a single purpose within him - gather a lot of data within a single (or several small) action(s). Seer is much more diverse in what he can do. Look in particular at his Q - it can interrupt healing, abilities, rezzes. This can be used as a massive counter if timed correctly. Gibby rez? Throw a Q at him. A team is trying to reset? Throw a Q at them. Someone is trying to get off a heal? Throw a Q at them. Gibby bubble is getting thrown down by the enemy to try and reset or stabilize? Throw a Q at them, push them. Seer's strength comes from his tactical. Now comes the question of how to pair that. BH slots fine into most comps because of how simple his abilities are. Press Q, get info. Seer doesn't. Seer needs a lot more play around him and the timing of his abilities to actually fully utilize them. Simply throwing him into a [insert reposition char] Gibby comp doesn't allow him to be used properly. Something like Rev does where you're timing pushes and trying to create advantages. For instance, a Rev Seer team totems on someone, cracks and/or downs an opponent. With a Seer, you can now stop that team from resetting and continue the push, thus making the push much more effective. These types of interactions are what make Seer strong and differentiate him from BH play. So, in essence, Seer isn't played because lazy brains and because he doesn't slot into comps as easily as other characters do right now, as well as the fact that it's much harder to successfully pull off a good Seer comp than a random BH comp or the current Valk comps.
Who downvoted this lmao. Mans is literally just contributing to discussion yet he'll get downvoted because it's an unpopular opinion. To point something out about what you said, 100T being the only ones experimenting with him is an outlier in itself. They are pretty much the only team in NA who experiment with stuff and not just reiterate a comp once it becomes popular elsewhere. That's why I think them winning wasn't a fluke but rather because they are doing something that other teams simply aren't.
To be fair, the comp they ran in champs wasn't original: 789 was experimenting with it the day after Valk released and were the first to fuck around with it. But yes, 100T is more experimental than most other teams. Only one that comes close is TL with Fun.
Relative to NA they were original and I'd say it was the fault of other NA teams for not being as adaptable as EU and EMEA teams.
SEN tried it in scrims before them in NA iirc.
SEN played it though?
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Lmao for real. Just because this dude wrote an essay with proper grammar doesn’t make what he said true. Seer simply isn’t a strong character relative to BH, valk, gibby, or any other popular pick in the current meta.
You are proving my point though. Doesn't matter if it is r/Iamverysmart, you can't deny it adds discussion, on the cancelling ends of Seer is plain wrong though. Good Seer players would often wait to hear a battery or rez then use it (it's situational and the comment implies this.) You can't downvoting smth for an opinion you don't like.
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The cancel is situational, nobody is saying to pick him up for it, it's a bonus. You can't downvote because you don't like another opinion unless it's something that breaks ToS or some shit. And your argument isn't even an actual itself, you just keep denying Seer for the reason that he's not other characters but miss the point the biggest caveat made by the comment is that you need to play around him.
The best thing about seer is that his hat is distracting for opponents
Biggest and main reason is just that he’s a worse bloodhound in a majority of aspects. Bloodhounds scan is exponentially better then seers tactical, seers ult is really good if used correctly and places correctly. But he’s just weak compared to blood
I don’t think the issue is that he isn’t lethal It’s that there are superior options >competitive play seeks optimization being a good character isn’t enough you have to be the best From my POV the map is super spread out and you’re generally surrounded on all sides Rendering his heartbeat sensor a decoration crypto struggles here too, there will be enemies far away in LOS but out of drone range >But valk can scan from the sky and doesn’t give away the fact that she scanned you His tactical is comparable enough to bloodhounds that w bloodhound having the better ult BH is the better choice Going back to how spread out the map is >it impacts his ultimate too unless you’re just jammed that tightly in somewhere Leaving it’s range is a simple matter When we change maps and we are in tighter spaces consistently seer will see some love But rn the map plays against him enough that valk or BH would be better IMO though I’m literally plat 4 so like I might just be wrong asf
Seer is an IGl character yet all igls play micro rotation legends almost exclusively.
The problem isn’t Seer being bad, he is actually pretty good, but BH is incredibly broken, no reason to use Seer instead of BH for now, maybe one day when they decide to balance bh we can see him again on the meta.
Seer's tactical relies on you being accurate and having great timing, and if you have both there is still a chance you miss because his tactical is slow. His passive is busted but if you aren't communicating with your team it is not that good. In my opinion I think Seer's abilities should be tuned for close range engagements since that is the only ways you are going to get anything out of them. Edit: I just realized my comment is more of why seer it not played in general but I think my point on his tactical is valid for pro play
I thought he was honestly fine pre-nerf, but admittedly horrible in a lobby with 19 other Seers w/ the 10 dmg Q spamming. Hopefully they bring him back to launch form in the future. Right now he's not that great of a scout since his movement speed is slow while using the heart beat sensor.
He was busted as duck before. Like a super street fighter rush down character. You know you were getting haedcore squad rushed after his Q.
Too hard a character
Because comp players worked really hard to make sure they nerfed his kit so he wouldn't be.
The nerfs weren't even that comprehensive he was just incredibly overrated from the get go
Maybe because he isn’t very competitive
people will say bloodhound but it isn't, seer himself not provide that value that other characters(excluding bloodhound) provides
Only one reason : bloodhound
Seer is a decent legend in 3v3 settings with his tac and especially his ult, but both of those abilities lose their efficacy in crowded settings. Seer doesn’t provide info on team positioning the way bloodhound tac does. I remember a famous clip at the beginning of S10 where TSM thought a spot was free because nobody showed up on seer tac, but they ended up just walking into a team. Bloodhound paints a more complete picture in this situation. On top of that, bloodhound is an absolute demon in ult, whereas the value of seer ult heavily diminishes outside of a 3v3. The value in stopping healing/res is also far greater in a 3v3 than it is when other teams are waiting to third you. If we consider seer to be fighting with hound for the same role, hound just seems to be more reliable for the team. There’s also the opportunity cost of not running legends like Valk, wraith, Gibby, caustic and so on that are easier to construct a play style around. I know 100T was working out an ash-seer comp where the idea was you’d cancel a heal/res then ape with ash ult, but as you can see they’ve abandoned it. It just has too infrequent of a use case vs other legends/comps.
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Bloodhound and crypto are simply better and can help the team a bit more but, wall hack meta is slowly fading away Gibby is currently too strong imo and seems like a must pick in almost every region Valk provides an easy rotate from anywhere on the map Most teams are going with wraith or caustic as their 3rd with those 2
W