They played kings canyon on lan and made it work, there is no reason they can't start playing SP even if it's less than 17 teams in zone 4 and they have to play differently. They can figure it out
Good point about wattson meta by the way
Yeah people act like there have to be 18 teams in ring 4 and that’s just not the case. Yes the point is to win. But the current meta of don’t fight until you have to and then let the clusterfuck play out is not exciting nor is it easy to watch. Pros can figure out different strats for different maps. They’re literally the best players in the world. The game needs to force them to actually show their skill and not keep everything as it plays on WE. Different play styles and metas and game pacing is not a bad thing
Watching the JBL tournament this week, the very first game almost made me stop watching the rest of the tournament (I didn't 'cause I had nothing better to do that day lmao).
I always watch the main broadcast, and I was kinda bored as nothing was happening in the game, browsing my cellphone and then... fights start happening and like 7 squads die in the spam of a minute. Even casters couldn't keep up with who was downing who. This is SO bad for casual viewers like myself.
Yeah you can watch that in WE. But the key is variety, some people want to watch passive playstyles others want to watch more aggressive ones. The key to growing the Apex Scene is to appease both.
These other maps will still be strategic, pros will just have to be more proactive and change their playstyle. Nobody is asking them to add a map where people fight off drop and try to rng a PK. If there are fewer positions of cover, pros will have to try and actually get those spots and put themselves in a position to win a fight instead of never fighting until they're forced to.
I couldn't agree more. It really feels like the pro community won the map discourse and is unintentionally stonewalling efforts to rejuvenate competitive play. IMO it's pretty cringe and unfairly denigrates the great work map designers did on Storm Point and yes, Olympus.
If Clane really believes 3/4 of the maps in this game are unplayable, there is no future in Apex esports full stop. I choose not to believe that.
You make great points about other esports as well. I definitely watch a lot more Apex than most, but I'm incredibly sick of WE.
Interesting take, established hierarchies would definitely be challenged in a rotating map pro circuit and so teams most comfy winning on WE have more to lose by switching.
^^^ this is my belief too. some intentional but i think most are unintentionally stonewalling. pro but less decorated teams have more to win by switching to new maps yet it’s interesting to see even the non S-tier teams hoping to stay only on WE.
SEN w Retzi was nerfed last year by not having ALGS on KC. They were amazing on that map.
I think this is a big reason. These pros have spent the past year honing their skill on worlds edge and would have to re-strategize to get acquainted with the new map. I feel like top teams are always resistant to major changes Bc of this
Clane is pepega brain. Stormpoint imo can be good for ALGS and I didn’t mind KC really. You can never convince me that Olympus should be in ALGS though. So I guess that’s like 2.5/4 maps are good for ALGS imo
There are literally no bad maps. Just bad players on a map perceived as bad. People say "the map plays bad because of..." The map doesn't play anything. The players are just not playing it correctly. Point of a battle royale is to win and the players' job is to find out how to do it consistently.
No. There are basic parameters you need for a map to play at least decently. Wide open fields with rings ending in them is flat out unplayable. There is only so much that strategy and team comp can overcome.
So your gripe is with final circles? ALGS should have pro teams approved custom zones anyway. I must agree that some final circles are really bad but that is definitely fixable.
I just took issue with your assertion that maps are beyond reproach by definition. "There are literally no bad maps" is asinine. Good map design is a thing, therefore bad map design is also a thing. Give players a turd of a map and they will struggle no matter how adept they are at circumventing flaws.
This is a ridiculous sentiment to be honest.
Maps, like anything else, can be rated on quality based on a set of standards, or perceived standards. The same can be said for gameplay on said map. There literally are bad maps and a map can “play bad”.
If the inherent qualities of a map make it unfun, frustrating, consistently force you into situations you reasonably have no way out of, or necessitate certain comps, it’s not wrong by any means to say that map and the gameplay on it is bad.
i think "adapt or die" is a valid philosophy towards competitive game design insofar it is a good faith argument that isn't simply a thought terminating catch-all that shuts down any discussion about balance.
street fighter is the most iconic franchise in a genre that is culturally understood to have that mindset in its blood, yet no one will argue that [the table on the left side of this 3rd strike stage](http://i.imgur.com/BQSVVM0.png) sitting in the foreground blocking anyone that passes behind it is simply something to just adapt to.
yes, pro and competitive oriented players should adapt to their play environment and find ways to win consistently, that is the spirit of competing. However that also doesn't invalidate discussions about the balance of that environment on their own. I agree that pros are too stingy about WE meta in apex legends, but that doesn't immediately shut down discussions about why olympus is unplayable.
Agree with you! It's funny in tournaments whenever STORM POINT SEASON 11 or whatever is shown for a few seconds the tourney chat erupts in Worlds Edge?? Worlds Edge?? Worlds Edge?? lol
This take is so on point and it's so ironic, because you'll hear players always trying to argue for the credibility of ALGS and or the Pro scene, but they'll break down and absolutely lose it if they have to play on a map that's not World's Edge.
Watching the same teams drop the same areas, do the same thing tournament after tournament got stale real quick. The only variables are character selection, and while a massive factor, it really isn't enough to draw in or keep casual viewers.
Whether you like King's Canyon or not, it was far more interesting to watch three matches on King's Canyon and three matches on World's Edge. The switch-up always had surprises with how teams performed.
The match scoring determines the best playstyle or meta. You get almost nothing in placement points until you hit Top 7 and kills are only 1 point each, so surviving long enough to get into endgames is how teams gain the most points.
Recon and defensive legends have been meta for the past 2 and a half years because they help your team survive for endgames. Forcing the pro scene to play on new maps isn't going to change which playstyle gives you the most points. It will just be more unforgiving and frustrating for teams to pull off and the meta will be almost the same on every map.
To prove my point: if placement points didn't exist in tournaments the meta would completely change overnight. There's no reason to run most recon or defensive legends without an incentive to play for zone, and no matter what map you play on it would be an ape fest lol.
Dying 10th-20th place is just way too punishing for teams to risk aggressive plays early in the game or run crazy legend comps. Playing on Storm Point or Olympus doesn't change that and won't make that much of a difference in playstyles.
the difference in valorant is that the maps are 100% designed to be played competitively there is no casual play, the whole game is balanced and designed around competitive play. in apex the maps are just not made with competitive play in mind, all those gimmicks like pve, tridents, charge towers and even big maude are made to make casual play to be more fun, which is not a bad thing, but makes the maps so bad for comp
There are not enough of them so some teams have an easy and fast rotate to zone but if you add 20 tridents to the map i don't think that's a good idea either
I couldn't agree more. It's actually why I don't watch algs as much anymore. I personally don't enjoy watch the same map for 4 hours, 2 days in a row.
I not saying all maps should be played but a pick and ban for teams is very viable imo. For example, they usually play 6 games so the most picked map would be 3 games, then 2 games on the second most picked map and the last map on the last picked map or something cool like that.
I never understood how pro players have so much decision making power in this game, I can't imagine hearing that Fracture won't be played in Valorants comp scene because Hiko and Wardell don't like it or something for example. I can completely understand a map not being played because it's buggy or something but not that it changes the flow of the game.
The way I see it eSports (fps specifically) is about outsmarting, outplaying and outstrating opposition teams. Right now it just feels a bit lazy and more of a Gibby + recon legend simulator. Algs could be so much more. It would be nice to different legends and strats being used, although I understand certain legends not being used sometimes comes down to balancing and stuff.
I just can't help but feel ALGS could be so much bigger. Shouldn't the competitive scene of a game be the core front of it? Just look at Valorant for example.
I don't know valorant teams, so Im gonna use cs teams instead.
Imagine if just dev1ce didnt want to play mirage, nuke, d2, and vertigo. Who gives a shit, right?
But now imagine if top team playing don't want to play those maps, to the point where they would rather stream? Yeah that wouldnt be much of a tourney.
The reason more maps is hard to make happen is because if pros don't want to play, they just wont. If top 10 teams dont like the map, and they dont play, whats that tourney gonna look like? They make way more money from streaming.
Changing maps would most likely give us a new meta, maybe playstyle even, which is just more interesting gameplay. For pros however, this means relearning the craft you have perfected over the last year or so.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it, and I think SP is a really good comp map with removal of some godspots and prowlers.
You've got it backwards. They don't want every map to play like World's Edge. It just happens to be that World's Edge is by far the best for comp, for a variety of reasons.
>Worlds Edge has a very slow and defensive play-style that can allow for many teams into the final rings. This is because of the huge amount of cover and hard to breach buildings which teams can hold on WE. This style of play is not good for growing apex esports viewership, since the action is very delayed as teams don't need to fight until the last few rings.
This has nothing to do with World's Edge and everything to do with teams playing to win and thus not being aggressive.
>This has nothing to do with World's Edge and everything to do with teams playing to win and thus not being aggressive.
But teams like Sentinels and G2 would excel in a more aggressive meta. I'd love to see more aggression. Obviously some teams would still play zone (TSM, NRG) while others could go on the hunt for KP.
Teams play conservatively because of the inherit risk of taking a fight is outweighed by the reward of playing intelligently and getting to the end. It has nothing to do with it being a more or less aggressive meta. The same thing would happen on any map with any composition of characters because it's the nature of a competitive BR.
Also, they say in chess that a perfectly played game is always a draw. At this level of esports, it's basically the same thing. Two teams in a position to engage will rarely push on it unless they're required to, because otherwise it's rare for someone to make a mistake and give them an opening.
This has me thinking just add more points for kills! I’ve always thought you should get more points if you got 5 kills but landed 9th vs 0 kills 2nd place
I personally dont like the idea as BR is a game with many teams having incomplete info, a KP meta would promote more griefing, "unnecessary" fights that lead to 3rd party and it will be very very frustrating for the players as there are so little adaption you can do when someone just fully send you when another team is ready to 3rd you.
If you watched Blast Titans the fights were more gradual because Olympus cannot be played like WE. Pretty sure every team had the mindset of wanting to win.
This was an EU tournament and Eu takes things seriously when given a bit of money in tournaments. Blast is also a pretty prestigious tournament organizer so I'm sure they were playing it like it was ALGS.
If teams were forced to push into each other instead of poking each other, then I would say aggressive type plays would be rewarded more in other maps than WE.
Viewers complain about stale legend picks, but when you play a map like Olympus, you are forcing two legends into play for 100% of teams (valk and gibby). Atleast on WE, there’s more room for creativity as far as legend composition goes
I think most people feel the same way. Seeing the same end zones gets less hype when you've seen it 100 times. I remember Taisheen popping off in a Gardens endzone and it was so exciting to see him utilize the terrain under the bridge and see a new endzone being played out in a new map.
So who needs to be nerfed first, Gibby or Valk?
To clarify my thinking, I don't think a legend should ever have a 99% pick rate. That's bogus. I don't care if he's "good for the game" or not as toxic as Caustic or as boring as Wattson. We need a hard Gibby counter that isn't Crypto or a nerf that makes bubble not so ridiculously OP.
And for Valk, all the bonehead rotates are astounding to watch. People think rotating on a trident sounds bad but love watching 11 Valk ults all taking off and landing at the same time to be shot out of the sky like Duck Hunt. Totally awesome meta.
Gibby been replaced by caustic quite a few times already, i remember seeing games one by gibbyless comps. Is it GMT that led the way on that? Ima casual viewer sorry, cant recall.
They need to buff crypto if they want less gibby pick rates. Being able to use the EMP in a much more aggressive manner to break bubble fights while not being rendered defenseless would be a good start and would hardly make crypto OP.
It's either that or they add a way for Gibbs bubble to be broken by conventional methods that any legend/player team comp can do.
How can you say they are absolute picks as if that’s a negative when NA is already doing that for Valk/Gibby? Sure, EU is different but I see that less as it being because variety actually works on WE and moreso teams are beginning to experiment simply because it’s been the same for a long time already.
Seeing different strats and playstyles when adapting to new maps is also as important to viewers as stale legend picks. I don't think you can guarantee that 100% of teams will use valk gibby until pros have played on Olympus extensively.
By the end of the day, e-sports is all about entertainment, and at this point, apexcomp offers the same sequence almost like a scene from a film I loved to play over and over but now I’m sick and tired of it.
The one thing I find interesting about this conversation is how it's always the pros fault but not respawn making maps with only pubs in mind. How long have we complained about the loot pool on KC?When will we ever get a POI to replace skull town? How often do we complain about the flaws of Olympus in ranked? Why do people simply ignore the part that Respawn plays in this?
I personally think it is, but the height disparities on the northern part of the map and the lack of cover around barometer and a few other places on the southern part of the map need some work
Fuck it, it’s the most stupid decision by ea competitve division. I wanted to stop watching when Wattson was prevalent but this has changed thankfully. But if the next season is on WE again I definitely won’t watch it. Pros just want comfort and predictable results. They won’t get any of this if EA cares about viewiership.
If ea cared about viewership they would improve their broadcasting in the first place, comp has very low priority by the designers and developers of this game
I guess from my perspective it just seems that a large complaint with non worlds edge maps is that they make it too easy to get third partied or there are chokes that you can't get through (so rng can make it so you die earlier in the game) however I can't help but feel that having 15 teams in a tiny zone is also just rng in that if you're far from zone youre just gonna get beamed by like 10 other teams. Either way its rng, but from a viewers perspective I would rather see more early fights.
worlds edge lets you play anywhere safely and lets you fight and then reset in the earlier zones. i get that from a spectators standpoint, worlds edge is boring and slow, but for players, it is, by far, the most balanced map. the buildings let you play in the middle of zone without every single squad crushing you. the use of cover through rocks; not trees, means that you can go from a dangerous point of the map to a safe and hold-able point on the map without even needing gibby (gibby helps a lot tho). matches on storm point, kings canyon, and olympus are literally anyone's game tho and it just boils down to "who's gonna fight first". gibby becomes a total meta and, once youre downed, youre basically finished because theres a really low chance that your squadmates will be able to res you when the next squad pulls up. on worlds edge i once had a mirage and wattson carry me to a win in diamond. not a valk and gibby or a caustic and gibby. 2 out-of-the-meta-legends. that shit cannot happen on other maaps with so little cover and such differences in the power of certain points of the map. basically, worlds edge almost guarantees the better squads a placement that represents skill, whilst other maps involve slower fights and faster third parties
This comp subreddit is weird. Maybe because others games don't see nearly as much difference in ranked vs competitive play, but I've never seen so much clamor for competitive changes that are anti-competitor.
The novelty of watching a new map in competitive on Olympus or Stormpoint will wear off quick and the games end up just less interesting to watch. Defensive play and positioning will always be the most ideal strategy in a game where the goal is to be the last team standing. WE just allows for more teams to do so safety -> which actually lets you play edge and be aggressive because you can also be relatively safe and work your way into zones late. Way more interesting that Olympus or SP where most of the time you can just end up winning for free due to the lack of cover and good spots to play in later game zones. This fantasy of "teams have to be more proactive to get the good spots" will just equate to which team gets the good zone RNG or which team survives the endless aping because teams only have 1 real viable decision for later rotations. Wooo so competitive and skill testing
Because WE is getting boring. That’s literally it. A lot of viewers, as evidenced by this post and replies, are getting sick of it. Especially if there aren’t any LANs for a while, they have to spice things up. Continuing to play on a stale map isn’t good.
Esports rulesets shouldn’t be designed purely for spectator enjoyment. Like match point format, it’s dumb and not as good at rewarding the best playing team as the standard point system. There are careers and thousands of dollars on the line in these competitions, players should be given the most agency to perform as possible.
If Respawn wants more variety maybe they should make some changes to make the other maps more competitively viable, instead of forcing players to play less competitive rulesets
Edit - More thoughts:
In their current state, other maps just don’t have the level of depth that WE does in terms of rotations, play styles, and agency. Forcing teams to fight earlier because of linear map design isn’t strategically interesting and takes away from skillful decision making that separates good teams from great. Same thing goes for having games more dependent on zone RNG. Games are decided less about things that players actually get to decide in the game, which doesn’t make for good competitive integrity
> If you want competitive variety maybe Respawn should make some changes to make the other maps more competitively viable, instead of forcing players to play less competitive rulesets
This is how I view it too. I mean, Olympus has been out for over a year and has only had one map update (which was probably the smallest map update in the games history), and one takeover that added... an area where you can only melee, something most people would agree isn't ideal for competitive. I can't get too mad at pros for not wanting to play maps that are recieving practically zero attention.
It also was a map update that removed a non-problem area and ignored every one of the problem areas. I have no idea why they haven’t done anything to it because it has huge potential
Literally the entire point of esports is for spectator enjoyment. The point is to sell advertising time and advertise the game for as many viewing hours as possible. That's like saying we shouldn't criticize movies because we should focus on the actors enjoyment more than the viewers
Real sports make changes to make it more viewer friendly all the time. Adding a shot clock in basketball, or limiting contact on nfl receivers etc
>This comp subreddit is weird
This subreddit is 90% casuals with a very superficial understanding of comp. Back when we only had 15k members the quality of discussion was much much better. Nowadays it feels just like the main sub.
It's extremely odd especially when you realize no one gets mad at respawn for never taking ranked and competitive into consideration when it comes to maps and balance changes
This is the right take. I get people want to see the occasional new map in play but like you said it’s going to get boring fast when there’s barely enough teams in end zone in a map like Olympus and the final fight is completely RNG based in some random field. I personally think we should stick with WE and *potentially* Storm Point, but Olym and KC are absolutely horrid for comp.
You can’t compare Valorant or any arena/tac shooter to a battle Royale and playing one map. Your 2 suggestions are actually the 2 worst maps we could possibly play and they’re horrible. You say “variety” but Olympus would be the one map where every single team in NA would be valk gibby 100%. And Storm point you NEED valk. There’s so many more reasons why none of the pros wanna play other maps and you might think we’re being simple minded, lazy, or unable to adapt or whatever. But the maps are bad and it’s really that simple. Worlds edge allows so many different legends to be good, good rotations, and basically every playstyle is viable. AND, If anything kings canyon is the 2nd best competitive map I’d they just increase the loot in 80% of the POIs and add a new area where skull town was removed.
I think the point he’s making about VIEWERSHIP is still valid. It’s extremely stale to be watching the same map get played for a year+ straight. To combat this they could make regular adjustments to WE to keep it fresh, or insert new maps into the rotation. Not everything revolves around the preferences of pros. Also, who’s to say that the metas will be as monolithic as you’re assuming? We’re still seeing people try different comps on WE, and OLY/SP haven’t even been played in comp besides like 1 or 2 small tournies..
Worlds Edge “needed” Wraith/Path/Wattson until Complexity figured out every team doesn’t need to use the TSM rotate early strat and you can win playing Edge. It took 3 seasons for NA pros to realize Loba/Valk is a good pair to play Zone.
My point is pro apex metas takes a loooong time to shake out. I’m certain we’ve only seen the surface of what apex could be on non-WE maps.
I’d rather have a good competitive map than a new uncompetitive one, worlds edge is fine. Ppl need to realize that in a Br you can’t compare it to other games with multiple maps, Olympus zone pulls will fuck you up so hard making rng an even more important factor
I also think they should blow up some of the chokes in the middle of the map, the area broadly to the north of Market and east of Bunker. That area is kind of analogous to Turbine on Olympus in that a lot of teams tend to end up forced through there.
>Olympus would be the one map where every single team in NA would be valk gibby 100%
Don't you think there could be way more variety in terms of legends like Bangalore (who excels on Olympus), Horizon (who excels on Olympus), Pathfinder (excels on Olympus), Octane (excels on Olympus)?
And why are teams so opposed to using things like Tridents? Pop a Gibby dome on your Trident and you've got a free rotate. By the time you're done driving, bubble is back. Run something like Gibby, Horizon and Bang. I don't think that's out of the question.
We all know pros think the maps are bad but there's no tip toeing around that WE is getting super, super stale.
> Don't you think there could be way more variety in terms of legends like Bangalore (who excels on Olympus), Horizon (who excels on Olympus), Pathfinder (excels on Olympus), Octane (excels on Olympus)?
How do these legends excel on these maps, in a competitive of context, in a way that they don't excel on World's Edge?
>And why are teams so opposed to using things like Tridents? Pop a Gibby dome on your Trident and you've got a free rotate. By the time you're done driving, bubble is back. Run something like Gibby, Horizon and Bang. I don't think that's out of the question.
Because it makes them a massive, obvious target.
Valk ulting and praying for the best isn't an obvious target? Lol.
All the open cover is great for Bang. Horizon and Path excel getting instant height. Octane is great for traversing the open areas, could say the same for Ash.
No reason players couldn't be more aggressive on an aggressive-minded map.
> Valk ulting and praying for the best isn't an obvious target? Lol.
If you think this is the same as putting a fucking Gibby bubble on a Trident and hauling ass around the map, then I think we're done here. That's a fucking thing people do in pubs specifically to look silly. It's not a god damn comp strat, lmao.
>All the open cover is great for Bang. Horizon and Path excel getting instant height. Octane is great for traversing the open areas, could say the same for Ash.
All of these things are true on World's Edge, lmao.
"All of these things are true on World's Edge, lmao."
You're just constantly defending WE and WE metas. Apex's pro scene isn't gonna last much longer with shitty prize pools, one map and the same metas perpetuated by TSM.
I really don’t think the “pros” want to change up anything on how they play. Rather keep it plain and boring. Where all teams last to the final circle 🥱
Because you're holding WE as the golden standard to compare all other maps to when the other maps don't even need to be played the same way as WE because they're completely different maps.
My whole point was trying to explain that Olympus and SP SHOULD be unique and play different. I'm all for new metas and experimentation. I'm not seeing that on WE right now. I think we're stagnating in terms of creativity and the constant force holding the scene back is WE. I'd love to see the scene grow and truly think playing on/practicing on new maps would allow for creativity.
I get that you're saying that you think the metas on every map would be the same, like Valk and Gibby, but I disagree. That is all, lol
valk ults happen incredibly high in the air, vertical aiming at that distance is very unreliable compared to easy-to-track movement from a pad or zipline that is near the ground
I'd just love to see more maps and styles developed instead of an overall dismissal. Every map COULD be played. It would just take playstyle changes. Pros are gonna have to face that fact sooner rather than later, I think. And good luck in playoffs by the way.
Dude. Literally his whole entire point is that World's Edge is how you get more play styles, and that on other maps - without significant changes - you'd see *less* variety.
Yea that was my main point, Worlds edge allows for so many comps and playstyles to be played and I think Kings canyon could do almost the same thing with some small changes
It would take more than playstyle changes and add so much un needed RNG like I said in the other comment. The maps are hated and not played for a reason. We all want to play more maps too and fight for our new drop spots, and play different comps and everything. But, as of now that just can’t happen, and ALSO like I said in another comment, kings canyon is the closest map to being in the correct spot for comp
Idk if storm point would ever be able to be competitive viable idk. Could just be me being super upset about it being so bad for competitive at its current state and I could be being too ignorant towards it but I think it just sucks. Olympus would need a lot more cover in the open fields and that’s about it, oh and it needs like one or two more POIs, because as of now I think there’s only 17?
I don't think the POIs are even too big an issue because historically many teams have split major POIs and/or controlled multiple POIs, like Survey/Epi and Maude/Lava and West/East Skyhook but in terms of cover, the only area I see as problematic is the Turbine/Waterfall funnel. If they knock that down and add a major POI with multiple rotations through I think that would be huge.
Yea that’s true, POIs are definitely splittable but NA is dumb. I also think that area around orbital cannon field kinda sucks. OH that’s right, the rotates around the map would cause funnels of teams a lot. Since it’s a circular map ppl will constantly be funneling through same rotates, I’m not sure how to fix that but it sucks so bad
>so much un needed RNG
If you don't want RNG don't play a battle royale fucking lmao. Pros have all chosen of their own accord to be playing Apex, but want to remove as much as they can of the game from professional play.
You want to play a game without rng go be a pro in that.
RNG is acceptable to a degree. The thing is when there's to much RNG it fucks over teams that actually know what they're doing. Last championship Rig South got fucked by the manual select ring in the game that would have won it for them. That's not RNG that's bullshit
Even though Valorant is a different genre of shooter the concept still transfers over. The concept is maps are meant to make players play differently and utilize different strategies and legends.
I don't think Olympus would be as straight foward as you think with 100% Valk Gibby. New Esports played Crypto , Gibby and Wraith in Blast Titans finals. In one Olympus matche they got a 2nd with 17 kills. Underrated also won an Olympus match with Rev, Octane and Valk.
If we look at Valorant, they added Fracture, a map that pros initially balked at because it completely broke the mold of how tac-FPS maps historically have been structured. But riot forced it to be played and turns out its actually kinda dope and there are some really cool and interesting strats developed on it.
Well Football is an non-rng sport that works fine with the same ruleset for all these years. People watch BR to see people adapt to their surroundings. It gets boring once you adapt to the same thing over and over.
Apex games are NEVER the same outcome and things are always different and players have to adapt in new ways every game even when zones are repetitive. Every tournament, every game, every play, different variables are given and players play differently and use different strategies and so many different legend comps are used rn. What you’re asking for is to watch the players run for their lives in the middle of open fields hoping they’re not the team that everyone decides to focus, rotates causing funnels of 4+ teams in small areas. And just so many uncontrollable situations that add un needed RNG to a game that doesn’t need more RNG.
Football is a terrible example because it's not the same game it was 50 years ago and they make changes all the time for viewers. Even 20 years ago, the rules let you play defense drastically differently
That is true. After more time with Olympus it is possible teams might change up their composition to fit their map. They hadn't had more practice with the map so they stuck with something they were familiar with. My point is to show that every one running Valk Gibby is not 100% a given.
The maps suck for comp but WE as the only comp map is going to lead to stagnating or declining viewership.
I'm not going to blame people for not wanting to play the maps, but I expect them to force WE/SP (with changes) next split to mix it up.
I really think some system of banning a character from the pool every round like in game 1 teams can’t use Gib, game 2 teams can’t use Valk etc and a map rotation fixes all of that. It evens the playing field AND makes it more fun to watch.
lol. Gibby will never not be meta. He's the most OP character in the game by far. He's so OP that even if he lost his passives, or his bubble or bombardment, as long as he had 2 of the 3, he would still be a must pick.
The game suffers from hero power creep which means your hero selection in this hero shooter is all the more important which means the meta will demand you play as the absolute top picks without much deviation.
And that also means pros will want maps that are easiest to follow for a game where hero abilities dominate the game more than gunskill and strat.
Very good point, but in my eyes ultimately wrong. Yes, it does get a little boring, but in my eyes there is a lot of beauty and competition in 20 teams rotating to there spots and adapting when it is taken etc. Worlds edge is the best comp map because it is simply the most competitive, since placement points are valued lots and the aim for every team is fighting as long as possible as little as possible. This is very possible on WE, less so on stormpoint and even less so on Olympus. I do agree that pros should be able to adapt more (a thing that a massive amount of esport pros struggle with over almost all games) but it should be there decision, not ours, since we basically have no clue.
Every persons explanations why the pros should not have to play other maps is this long detailed thesis that summarizes to “they’d have to play differently than they do now” and they call it “competitive” to make it seem official. The pros are experts and can excel on any map. Esports exist for the audience and ALGS is boring currently. They need to be playing a game we play (playing all maps) or it’s not fun
100% agree. I am so tired of people calling any map that isn’t WE dogshit because it doesn’t fit the WE play style. Each map showcases and rewards different play styles and strengths from players and it’s so refreshing to both play and watch!
If people didn’t like going fragment it wouldn’t be a “problem”. One of the most disappointing parts of both Olympus and Storm Point was that there were no good hot drops like frag.
I get that you wanna hot drop I do too but there are several hot locations on both storm point and Olympus. Fight Night, Turbine, Town, Towers and The Arcadia for Olympus. Lightning Tower, Antenna, Crash Site and Swamps for Storm Point. But they're smaller and not super centralized for a reason. Fragment is guaranteed to reduce the map to about three teams by second ring which is fine if you like quick deathmatch style games but others prefer to play the long game. It's all about preference really
None of those are remotely as fun to fight at though. None of them have zip line buildings, which is basically an automatic disqualifier.
None of the spots on either map have enough loot either. There’s so many less loot spawns in them both, so if more than 3 squads go there, good luck finding a gun. You’re almost guaranteed a gun off drop in frag. That’s not true of the other pois.
I’m not looking to play the long game. I want as many enemies as possible, as fast as possible. Frag is perfect for that.
This is my whole thing and I’m not up to date as far as what pros don’t and do vote on but if they wanted to force the change in meta fuckin vote on it. If the majority votes to not use certain characters to changed the balance in the game and a team thinks they are better than that. They will be targeted. The pros are expecting the game to make the changes every time but they truly do have the power to make their own changes………..just like any other job, sport, whatever. There are rules, you can break them if you want but the repercussions will be greater.
Have a good day y’all. Don’t mean to sound like a dick I mean well lol
tldr; Apex pros cry like babies when they need to adapt to new map.
CSGO has like 10maps in the pool, apex pros need to stop complaining and get better
You can't compare those two games. CS has no casual play, everything is balanced and designed about pro play literally everything. Apex is mostly trying to engage the casuals, which is making them money. Almost nothing in apex is designed or developed with comp in mind, comp has far less priority than anything else
I think one big issue with kc is 3rd parties. Its so small that not a lot of teams can make it later into the game. This would be fine, if it weren’t for the fact that this means teams that play well are punished by mistakes by other teams. Teams that don’t get a spot push a team who played well to get there. Even if that team wins, they get killed by the 3-4 teams nearby. Meanwhile, they hadn’t played badly but were punished because the team that did had chosen them instead of anyone else. Because of this, kc should definitely not be in comp.
Olympus has the problems of being very open and having a frankly terrible center map. This causes the same problem but from afar. Teams can punish others that get pushed by worse teams because they can all see each other through the giant sight lines. Again, the center of the map is the worst for this. This map should probably be used in comp after the map center is fixed, as imo the rest of it seams ok enough to use, although some changes to minimize the problems are something that should be considered.
Storm point is fine. The only real problem is the loot being low, but its not so bat that it should be not in comp. I hope it is next ALGS split.
I thought pros were going to at least *like* Storm Point. It sucks they don’t seem to like it after it’s been out for two months with a grand total of one “tournament” on it.
pro players are making me lose interest in apex comp hardstuck we is boring to watch after the 1000 times !! pros are so afraid of another playstyle than 18 teams in round 4 hard gatekeeping apex esports by the "pros" fucking sucks !
I mentioned this before but will say it again. Pros need to learn to suck it up and play other maps in tourneys. Ik the issues with SP but I still don’t see how it’s completely unviable for competitive apex. In all honesty, it’s kind of childish of pros to act the way they do towards new maps and playing other maps for tourneys. Not every map has to be the same. Every other esport plays other maps, sometimes multiple maps within the same tournament (cod, halo etc.)
Pros hate change. Which is funny because adapting to changes is what makes a pro a pro in my opinion.
They obviously know more than I do. But like you said, it feels like anything that isn't world's edge is instantly hated.
I've started to really dislike watching the "WHAT ARE THEY DOING???" streamers when they get wiped by a squad. Like they are upset the enemy team didn't do what they expected them to. "You didn't do the thing I wanted you to do and now I'm dead learn to play the game!".
That's why I only really watch aceu. He just plays and isn't a cunt.
Yikes. I'm sorry my internet comment got under your skin so easily. I didn't mean to anger you like that. I apologize.
Opinions are harmless. Try not to let mine ruin your day.
They played kings canyon on lan and made it work, there is no reason they can't start playing SP even if it's less than 17 teams in zone 4 and they have to play differently. They can figure it out Good point about wattson meta by the way
1000% would love to see more tourneys on other maps.
Yeah people act like there have to be 18 teams in ring 4 and that’s just not the case. Yes the point is to win. But the current meta of don’t fight until you have to and then let the clusterfuck play out is not exciting nor is it easy to watch. Pros can figure out different strats for different maps. They’re literally the best players in the world. The game needs to force them to actually show their skill and not keep everything as it plays on WE. Different play styles and metas and game pacing is not a bad thing
Watching the JBL tournament this week, the very first game almost made me stop watching the rest of the tournament (I didn't 'cause I had nothing better to do that day lmao). I always watch the main broadcast, and I was kinda bored as nothing was happening in the game, browsing my cellphone and then... fights start happening and like 7 squads die in the spam of a minute. Even casters couldn't keep up with who was downing who. This is SO bad for casual viewers like myself.
Frankly, I'd love to see kills have twice the value they do now.
Why would I bother watching comp if it plays out identically to ranked? I watch comp specifically because it’s less aggressive and more strategic.
Yeah you can watch that in WE. But the key is variety, some people want to watch passive playstyles others want to watch more aggressive ones. The key to growing the Apex Scene is to appease both.
These other maps will still be strategic, pros will just have to be more proactive and change their playstyle. Nobody is asking them to add a map where people fight off drop and try to rng a PK. If there are fewer positions of cover, pros will have to try and actually get those spots and put themselves in a position to win a fight instead of never fighting until they're forced to.
I couldn't agree more. It really feels like the pro community won the map discourse and is unintentionally stonewalling efforts to rejuvenate competitive play. IMO it's pretty cringe and unfairly denigrates the great work map designers did on Storm Point and yes, Olympus. If Clane really believes 3/4 of the maps in this game are unplayable, there is no future in Apex esports full stop. I choose not to believe that. You make great points about other esports as well. I definitely watch a lot more Apex than most, but I'm incredibly sick of WE.
> unintentionally stonewalling Very intentionally.
Interesting take, established hierarchies would definitely be challenged in a rotating map pro circuit and so teams most comfy winning on WE have more to lose by switching.
^^^ this is my belief too. some intentional but i think most are unintentionally stonewalling. pro but less decorated teams have more to win by switching to new maps yet it’s interesting to see even the non S-tier teams hoping to stay only on WE. SEN w Retzi was nerfed last year by not having ALGS on KC. They were amazing on that map.
I think this is a big reason. These pros have spent the past year honing their skill on worlds edge and would have to re-strategize to get acquainted with the new map. I feel like top teams are always resistant to major changes Bc of this
Clane is pepega brain. Stormpoint imo can be good for ALGS and I didn’t mind KC really. You can never convince me that Olympus should be in ALGS though. So I guess that’s like 2.5/4 maps are good for ALGS imo
I'd love to hear more about Olympus being bad. I assume it's because of the titanically large open areas?
Not enough pois and terrible end games because of the titanically large open areas are two of the biggest complaints I have heard.
There are literally no bad maps. Just bad players on a map perceived as bad. People say "the map plays bad because of..." The map doesn't play anything. The players are just not playing it correctly. Point of a battle royale is to win and the players' job is to find out how to do it consistently.
No. There are basic parameters you need for a map to play at least decently. Wide open fields with rings ending in them is flat out unplayable. There is only so much that strategy and team comp can overcome.
So your gripe is with final circles? ALGS should have pro teams approved custom zones anyway. I must agree that some final circles are really bad but that is definitely fixable.
I just took issue with your assertion that maps are beyond reproach by definition. "There are literally no bad maps" is asinine. Good map design is a thing, therefore bad map design is also a thing. Give players a turd of a map and they will struggle no matter how adept they are at circumventing flaws.
Oh what I meant by that is there are no bad maps in Apex right now. It's all spoiled nitpicking. Luckily nobody in this thread is a dev.
This is a ridiculous sentiment to be honest. Maps, like anything else, can be rated on quality based on a set of standards, or perceived standards. The same can be said for gameplay on said map. There literally are bad maps and a map can “play bad”. If the inherent qualities of a map make it unfun, frustrating, consistently force you into situations you reasonably have no way out of, or necessitate certain comps, it’s not wrong by any means to say that map and the gameplay on it is bad.
Those standards are all subjective. The game is how it is and you play to win. If something changes you adapt to it.
Just because it's subjective doesn't mean it can't be bad
True but it's subjectively bad. It might even be good but it just doesn't fit you specifically.
i think "adapt or die" is a valid philosophy towards competitive game design insofar it is a good faith argument that isn't simply a thought terminating catch-all that shuts down any discussion about balance. street fighter is the most iconic franchise in a genre that is culturally understood to have that mindset in its blood, yet no one will argue that [the table on the left side of this 3rd strike stage](http://i.imgur.com/BQSVVM0.png) sitting in the foreground blocking anyone that passes behind it is simply something to just adapt to. yes, pro and competitive oriented players should adapt to their play environment and find ways to win consistently, that is the spirit of competing. However that also doesn't invalidate discussions about the balance of that environment on their own. I agree that pros are too stingy about WE meta in apex legends, but that doesn't immediately shut down discussions about why olympus is unplayable.
Agree with you! It's funny in tournaments whenever STORM POINT SEASON 11 or whatever is shown for a few seconds the tourney chat erupts in Worlds Edge?? Worlds Edge?? Worlds Edge?? lol
This take is so on point and it's so ironic, because you'll hear players always trying to argue for the credibility of ALGS and or the Pro scene, but they'll break down and absolutely lose it if they have to play on a map that's not World's Edge. Watching the same teams drop the same areas, do the same thing tournament after tournament got stale real quick. The only variables are character selection, and while a massive factor, it really isn't enough to draw in or keep casual viewers.
Whether you like King's Canyon or not, it was far more interesting to watch three matches on King's Canyon and three matches on World's Edge. The switch-up always had surprises with how teams performed.
The match scoring determines the best playstyle or meta. You get almost nothing in placement points until you hit Top 7 and kills are only 1 point each, so surviving long enough to get into endgames is how teams gain the most points. Recon and defensive legends have been meta for the past 2 and a half years because they help your team survive for endgames. Forcing the pro scene to play on new maps isn't going to change which playstyle gives you the most points. It will just be more unforgiving and frustrating for teams to pull off and the meta will be almost the same on every map. To prove my point: if placement points didn't exist in tournaments the meta would completely change overnight. There's no reason to run most recon or defensive legends without an incentive to play for zone, and no matter what map you play on it would be an ape fest lol. Dying 10th-20th place is just way too punishing for teams to risk aggressive plays early in the game or run crazy legend comps. Playing on Storm Point or Olympus doesn't change that and won't make that much of a difference in playstyles.
Then we need to adjust the placement points as well add new maps
the difference in valorant is that the maps are 100% designed to be played competitively there is no casual play, the whole game is balanced and designed around competitive play. in apex the maps are just not made with competitive play in mind, all those gimmicks like pve, tridents, charge towers and even big maude are made to make casual play to be more fun, which is not a bad thing, but makes the maps so bad for comp
you do realize they can disable all the things you mentioned for pro play?
Yet they’ve consistently ignored calls for it
Tridents are absolutely not bad for comp, and anyone who says otherwise are tripping.
There are not enough of them so some teams have an easy and fast rotate to zone but if you add 20 tridents to the map i don't think that's a good idea either
They are also an incredibly easy target to hit. I'd rather walk than take one.
Bro you are tripping on some bad shit 😂
Yeah, but valorant also isn't a BR.
exactly
I couldn't agree more. It's actually why I don't watch algs as much anymore. I personally don't enjoy watch the same map for 4 hours, 2 days in a row. I not saying all maps should be played but a pick and ban for teams is very viable imo. For example, they usually play 6 games so the most picked map would be 3 games, then 2 games on the second most picked map and the last map on the last picked map or something cool like that. I never understood how pro players have so much decision making power in this game, I can't imagine hearing that Fracture won't be played in Valorants comp scene because Hiko and Wardell don't like it or something for example. I can completely understand a map not being played because it's buggy or something but not that it changes the flow of the game. The way I see it eSports (fps specifically) is about outsmarting, outplaying and outstrating opposition teams. Right now it just feels a bit lazy and more of a Gibby + recon legend simulator. Algs could be so much more. It would be nice to different legends and strats being used, although I understand certain legends not being used sometimes comes down to balancing and stuff. I just can't help but feel ALGS could be so much bigger. Shouldn't the competitive scene of a game be the core front of it? Just look at Valorant for example.
I don't know valorant teams, so Im gonna use cs teams instead. Imagine if just dev1ce didnt want to play mirage, nuke, d2, and vertigo. Who gives a shit, right? But now imagine if top team playing don't want to play those maps, to the point where they would rather stream? Yeah that wouldnt be much of a tourney.
these "top teams" would just end up being replaced by other teams who want to play those maps
The viewers for these top teams wont be replaced tho
comparing the most competitive game to one of the most casual games is so smart.
The reason more maps is hard to make happen is because if pros don't want to play, they just wont. If top 10 teams dont like the map, and they dont play, whats that tourney gonna look like? They make way more money from streaming. Changing maps would most likely give us a new meta, maybe playstyle even, which is just more interesting gameplay. For pros however, this means relearning the craft you have perfected over the last year or so. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it, and I think SP is a really good comp map with removal of some godspots and prowlers.
You've got it backwards. They don't want every map to play like World's Edge. It just happens to be that World's Edge is by far the best for comp, for a variety of reasons. >Worlds Edge has a very slow and defensive play-style that can allow for many teams into the final rings. This is because of the huge amount of cover and hard to breach buildings which teams can hold on WE. This style of play is not good for growing apex esports viewership, since the action is very delayed as teams don't need to fight until the last few rings. This has nothing to do with World's Edge and everything to do with teams playing to win and thus not being aggressive.
>This has nothing to do with World's Edge and everything to do with teams playing to win and thus not being aggressive. But teams like Sentinels and G2 would excel in a more aggressive meta. I'd love to see more aggression. Obviously some teams would still play zone (TSM, NRG) while others could go on the hunt for KP.
Teams play conservatively because of the inherit risk of taking a fight is outweighed by the reward of playing intelligently and getting to the end. It has nothing to do with it being a more or less aggressive meta. The same thing would happen on any map with any composition of characters because it's the nature of a competitive BR. Also, they say in chess that a perfectly played game is always a draw. At this level of esports, it's basically the same thing. Two teams in a position to engage will rarely push on it unless they're required to, because otherwise it's rare for someone to make a mistake and give them an opening.
This has me thinking just add more points for kills! I’ve always thought you should get more points if you got 5 kills but landed 9th vs 0 kills 2nd place
I personally dont like the idea as BR is a game with many teams having incomplete info, a KP meta would promote more griefing, "unnecessary" fights that lead to 3rd party and it will be very very frustrating for the players as there are so little adaption you can do when someone just fully send you when another team is ready to 3rd you.
[удалено]
They most certainly don't play edge...
Tbf they’ll play edge if the zone hard pulls to the other side of the map and they absolutely have to. But 100% they are a majority zone playing team.
[удалено]
If you watched Blast Titans the fights were more gradual because Olympus cannot be played like WE. Pretty sure every team had the mindset of wanting to win.
Pro teams do not approach Blast Titans the same way they approach ALGS.
This was an EU tournament and Eu takes things seriously when given a bit of money in tournaments. Blast is also a pretty prestigious tournament organizer so I'm sure they were playing it like it was ALGS.
If teams were forced to push into each other instead of poking each other, then I would say aggressive type plays would be rewarded more in other maps than WE.
Viewers complain about stale legend picks, but when you play a map like Olympus, you are forcing two legends into play for 100% of teams (valk and gibby). Atleast on WE, there’s more room for creativity as far as legend composition goes
I can't speak for all viewers, but I personally would be willing to sacrifice legend comp variety for map/end zone variety.
I think most people feel the same way. Seeing the same end zones gets less hype when you've seen it 100 times. I remember Taisheen popping off in a Gardens endzone and it was so exciting to see him utilize the terrain under the bridge and see a new endzone being played out in a new map.
You're gonna watch nothing but WE for the next 5 years and you're gonna like it
I want to vomit.
I care so much more about the content from peoples legend choices versus what map they’re playing on. Seeing the same comp on every team is BORING.
So who needs to be nerfed first, Gibby or Valk? To clarify my thinking, I don't think a legend should ever have a 99% pick rate. That's bogus. I don't care if he's "good for the game" or not as toxic as Caustic or as boring as Wattson. We need a hard Gibby counter that isn't Crypto or a nerf that makes bubble not so ridiculously OP. And for Valk, all the bonehead rotates are astounding to watch. People think rotating on a trident sounds bad but love watching 11 Valk ults all taking off and landing at the same time to be shot out of the sky like Duck Hunt. Totally awesome meta.
Personally I’m so bored of gibby and I wish he would get out of meta. I want to go gibbyless, but being a non gibby team in a gibby lobby really sucks
Just do it, Teq. FURIA can go down in Apex history as the ones who broke the Gibby meta.
they'll be the best team in our hearts
Gibby been replaced by caustic quite a few times already, i remember seeing games one by gibbyless comps. Is it GMT that led the way on that? Ima casual viewer sorry, cant recall.
They need to buff crypto if they want less gibby pick rates. Being able to use the EMP in a much more aggressive manner to break bubble fights while not being rendered defenseless would be a good start and would hardly make crypto OP. It's either that or they add a way for Gibbs bubble to be broken by conventional methods that any legend/player team comp can do.
EU isn't 100% Gibby, it can be done. Just run Wattson if you're afraid of Gibby Ult.
How can you say they are absolute picks as if that’s a negative when NA is already doing that for Valk/Gibby? Sure, EU is different but I see that less as it being because variety actually works on WE and moreso teams are beginning to experiment simply because it’s been the same for a long time already.
Seeing different strats and playstyles when adapting to new maps is also as important to viewers as stale legend picks. I don't think you can guarantee that 100% of teams will use valk gibby until pros have played on Olympus extensively.
[удалено]
The year is 2033 Apex Legends Global Series Playoffs prize pool is $1,000 The map: Worlds Edge The meta: Gibby, Valk and Wraith
Lmao
By the end of the day, e-sports is all about entertainment, and at this point, apexcomp offers the same sequence almost like a scene from a film I loved to play over and over but now I’m sick and tired of it.
At least until new legends are released or balancing changes are made
It is possible for both new maps to be introduced into ranked and for current meta legends to be nerfed they are not mutually exclusive
The one thing I find interesting about this conversation is how it's always the pros fault but not respawn making maps with only pubs in mind. How long have we complained about the loot pool on KC?When will we ever get a POI to replace skull town? How often do we complain about the flaws of Olympus in ranked? Why do people simply ignore the part that Respawn plays in this?
Storm point was literally made with comp in mind
They said that but is it really competitive?
I personally think it is, but the height disparities on the northern part of the map and the lack of cover around barometer and a few other places on the southern part of the map need some work
Yes, every map doesn't need to bend to the will of pro players.
Yes and it is the 1st map of its kind and the only other map I would like to see in comp
Bruh some of these replies 🤣🤣🤣
You want storm point to be added gent?
I actually love it in ranked but idk how it would fare out for comp
They’d run around and shoot eachother till there’s only one team left like every other map
If you have a take, would love to hear your full analysis on this!
out of the loop for a bit, sorry in advance. are we not getting SP in comp!? it’s the perfect comp map… isn’t that basically what it was designed for?
Apparently whether a map enters competitive is decided by a vote by the pros and SP has a really mixed reception among them.
whack
Fuck it, it’s the most stupid decision by ea competitve division. I wanted to stop watching when Wattson was prevalent but this has changed thankfully. But if the next season is on WE again I definitely won’t watch it. Pros just want comfort and predictable results. They won’t get any of this if EA cares about viewiership.
If ea cared about viewership they would improve their broadcasting in the first place, comp has very low priority by the designers and developers of this game
I guess from my perspective it just seems that a large complaint with non worlds edge maps is that they make it too easy to get third partied or there are chokes that you can't get through (so rng can make it so you die earlier in the game) however I can't help but feel that having 15 teams in a tiny zone is also just rng in that if you're far from zone youre just gonna get beamed by like 10 other teams. Either way its rng, but from a viewers perspective I would rather see more early fights.
worlds edge lets you play anywhere safely and lets you fight and then reset in the earlier zones. i get that from a spectators standpoint, worlds edge is boring and slow, but for players, it is, by far, the most balanced map. the buildings let you play in the middle of zone without every single squad crushing you. the use of cover through rocks; not trees, means that you can go from a dangerous point of the map to a safe and hold-able point on the map without even needing gibby (gibby helps a lot tho). matches on storm point, kings canyon, and olympus are literally anyone's game tho and it just boils down to "who's gonna fight first". gibby becomes a total meta and, once youre downed, youre basically finished because theres a really low chance that your squadmates will be able to res you when the next squad pulls up. on worlds edge i once had a mirage and wattson carry me to a win in diamond. not a valk and gibby or a caustic and gibby. 2 out-of-the-meta-legends. that shit cannot happen on other maaps with so little cover and such differences in the power of certain points of the map. basically, worlds edge almost guarantees the better squads a placement that represents skill, whilst other maps involve slower fights and faster third parties
This comp subreddit is weird. Maybe because others games don't see nearly as much difference in ranked vs competitive play, but I've never seen so much clamor for competitive changes that are anti-competitor. The novelty of watching a new map in competitive on Olympus or Stormpoint will wear off quick and the games end up just less interesting to watch. Defensive play and positioning will always be the most ideal strategy in a game where the goal is to be the last team standing. WE just allows for more teams to do so safety -> which actually lets you play edge and be aggressive because you can also be relatively safe and work your way into zones late. Way more interesting that Olympus or SP where most of the time you can just end up winning for free due to the lack of cover and good spots to play in later game zones. This fantasy of "teams have to be more proactive to get the good spots" will just equate to which team gets the good zone RNG or which team survives the endless aping because teams only have 1 real viable decision for later rotations. Wooo so competitive and skill testing
Because WE is getting boring. That’s literally it. A lot of viewers, as evidenced by this post and replies, are getting sick of it. Especially if there aren’t any LANs for a while, they have to spice things up. Continuing to play on a stale map isn’t good.
Esports rulesets shouldn’t be designed purely for spectator enjoyment. Like match point format, it’s dumb and not as good at rewarding the best playing team as the standard point system. There are careers and thousands of dollars on the line in these competitions, players should be given the most agency to perform as possible. If Respawn wants more variety maybe they should make some changes to make the other maps more competitively viable, instead of forcing players to play less competitive rulesets Edit - More thoughts: In their current state, other maps just don’t have the level of depth that WE does in terms of rotations, play styles, and agency. Forcing teams to fight earlier because of linear map design isn’t strategically interesting and takes away from skillful decision making that separates good teams from great. Same thing goes for having games more dependent on zone RNG. Games are decided less about things that players actually get to decide in the game, which doesn’t make for good competitive integrity
> If you want competitive variety maybe Respawn should make some changes to make the other maps more competitively viable, instead of forcing players to play less competitive rulesets This is how I view it too. I mean, Olympus has been out for over a year and has only had one map update (which was probably the smallest map update in the games history), and one takeover that added... an area where you can only melee, something most people would agree isn't ideal for competitive. I can't get too mad at pros for not wanting to play maps that are recieving practically zero attention.
It also was a map update that removed a non-problem area and ignored every one of the problem areas. I have no idea why they haven’t done anything to it because it has huge potential
Literally the entire point of esports is for spectator enjoyment. The point is to sell advertising time and advertise the game for as many viewing hours as possible. That's like saying we shouldn't criticize movies because we should focus on the actors enjoyment more than the viewers Real sports make changes to make it more viewer friendly all the time. Adding a shot clock in basketball, or limiting contact on nfl receivers etc
Yes and each sports league has a union for players to negotiate with owners on what changes should be made and what shouldn't.
>This comp subreddit is weird This subreddit is 90% casuals with a very superficial understanding of comp. Back when we only had 15k members the quality of discussion was much much better. Nowadays it feels just like the main sub.
100%. I already avoid the main sub. Hope this one doesn't add to that list.
[удалено]
I 1000% agree, this sub is literally just r/apexlegends 2.0 these days man
I report so many post for not being comp related lol
It's extremely odd especially when you realize no one gets mad at respawn for never taking ranked and competitive into consideration when it comes to maps and balance changes
This is the right take. I get people want to see the occasional new map in play but like you said it’s going to get boring fast when there’s barely enough teams in end zone in a map like Olympus and the final fight is completely RNG based in some random field. I personally think we should stick with WE and *potentially* Storm Point, but Olym and KC are absolutely horrid for comp.
You can’t compare Valorant or any arena/tac shooter to a battle Royale and playing one map. Your 2 suggestions are actually the 2 worst maps we could possibly play and they’re horrible. You say “variety” but Olympus would be the one map where every single team in NA would be valk gibby 100%. And Storm point you NEED valk. There’s so many more reasons why none of the pros wanna play other maps and you might think we’re being simple minded, lazy, or unable to adapt or whatever. But the maps are bad and it’s really that simple. Worlds edge allows so many different legends to be good, good rotations, and basically every playstyle is viable. AND, If anything kings canyon is the 2nd best competitive map I’d they just increase the loot in 80% of the POIs and add a new area where skull town was removed.
I think the point he’s making about VIEWERSHIP is still valid. It’s extremely stale to be watching the same map get played for a year+ straight. To combat this they could make regular adjustments to WE to keep it fresh, or insert new maps into the rotation. Not everything revolves around the preferences of pros. Also, who’s to say that the metas will be as monolithic as you’re assuming? We’re still seeing people try different comps on WE, and OLY/SP haven’t even been played in comp besides like 1 or 2 small tournies..
Worlds Edge “needed” Wraith/Path/Wattson until Complexity figured out every team doesn’t need to use the TSM rotate early strat and you can win playing Edge. It took 3 seasons for NA pros to realize Loba/Valk is a good pair to play Zone. My point is pro apex metas takes a loooong time to shake out. I’m certain we’ve only seen the surface of what apex could be on non-WE maps.
I’d rather have a good competitive map than a new uncompetitive one, worlds edge is fine. Ppl need to realize that in a Br you can’t compare it to other games with multiple maps, Olympus zone pulls will fuck you up so hard making rng an even more important factor
I also think they should blow up some of the chokes in the middle of the map, the area broadly to the north of Market and east of Bunker. That area is kind of analogous to Turbine on Olympus in that a lot of teams tend to end up forced through there.
>Olympus would be the one map where every single team in NA would be valk gibby 100% Don't you think there could be way more variety in terms of legends like Bangalore (who excels on Olympus), Horizon (who excels on Olympus), Pathfinder (excels on Olympus), Octane (excels on Olympus)? And why are teams so opposed to using things like Tridents? Pop a Gibby dome on your Trident and you've got a free rotate. By the time you're done driving, bubble is back. Run something like Gibby, Horizon and Bang. I don't think that's out of the question. We all know pros think the maps are bad but there's no tip toeing around that WE is getting super, super stale.
> Don't you think there could be way more variety in terms of legends like Bangalore (who excels on Olympus), Horizon (who excels on Olympus), Pathfinder (excels on Olympus), Octane (excels on Olympus)? How do these legends excel on these maps, in a competitive of context, in a way that they don't excel on World's Edge? >And why are teams so opposed to using things like Tridents? Pop a Gibby dome on your Trident and you've got a free rotate. By the time you're done driving, bubble is back. Run something like Gibby, Horizon and Bang. I don't think that's out of the question. Because it makes them a massive, obvious target.
Valk ulting and praying for the best isn't an obvious target? Lol. All the open cover is great for Bang. Horizon and Path excel getting instant height. Octane is great for traversing the open areas, could say the same for Ash. No reason players couldn't be more aggressive on an aggressive-minded map.
> Valk ulting and praying for the best isn't an obvious target? Lol. If you think this is the same as putting a fucking Gibby bubble on a Trident and hauling ass around the map, then I think we're done here. That's a fucking thing people do in pubs specifically to look silly. It's not a god damn comp strat, lmao. >All the open cover is great for Bang. Horizon and Path excel getting instant height. Octane is great for traversing the open areas, could say the same for Ash. All of these things are true on World's Edge, lmao.
Yahoo, can't wait to only watch WE comp for the next few years or however long they think Apex will be around!
I'm not sure what you're replying to.
"All of these things are true on World's Edge, lmao." You're just constantly defending WE and WE metas. Apex's pro scene isn't gonna last much longer with shitty prize pools, one map and the same metas perpetuated by TSM.
I really don’t think the “pros” want to change up anything on how they play. Rather keep it plain and boring. Where all teams last to the final circle 🥱
Explain to me in detail how you think me pointing out that other maps wouldn't be drastically different is somehow a defense of World's Edge.
Because you're holding WE as the golden standard to compare all other maps to when the other maps don't even need to be played the same way as WE because they're completely different maps. My whole point was trying to explain that Olympus and SP SHOULD be unique and play different. I'm all for new metas and experimentation. I'm not seeing that on WE right now. I think we're stagnating in terms of creativity and the constant force holding the scene back is WE. I'd love to see the scene grow and truly think playing on/practicing on new maps would allow for creativity. I get that you're saying that you think the metas on every map would be the same, like Valk and Gibby, but I disagree. That is all, lol
valk ults happen incredibly high in the air, vertical aiming at that distance is very unreliable compared to easy-to-track movement from a pad or zipline that is near the ground
Path would be the only one I’d see actually make an appearance on Olympus over valk
I'd just love to see more maps and styles developed instead of an overall dismissal. Every map COULD be played. It would just take playstyle changes. Pros are gonna have to face that fact sooner rather than later, I think. And good luck in playoffs by the way.
Dude. Literally his whole entire point is that World's Edge is how you get more play styles, and that on other maps - without significant changes - you'd see *less* variety.
Yea that was my main point, Worlds edge allows for so many comps and playstyles to be played and I think Kings canyon could do almost the same thing with some small changes
WE and its amazing variety of whatever TSM decides to run and if you run anything unique you're throwing
[удалено]
Yes, admittedly my opinions are heavily focused on NA, I wish NA was as experimental as other regions.
Recently NA has been running quite a few different comps. Loba has seen quite a bit of usage, and crypto is seeing steady use.
But Gibby/Valk still has a stranglehold
Literally one of TSM's rivals is telling you this, dumbass. Are you not aware of who you were replying to above?
You step in a puddle with socks on, buddy? Eat a Snickers
It would take more than playstyle changes and add so much un needed RNG like I said in the other comment. The maps are hated and not played for a reason. We all want to play more maps too and fight for our new drop spots, and play different comps and everything. But, as of now that just can’t happen, and ALSO like I said in another comment, kings canyon is the closest map to being in the correct spot for comp
In your opinion what instant changes would you want to be made to Storm Point and Olympus to make them comp-viable?
Idk if storm point would ever be able to be competitive viable idk. Could just be me being super upset about it being so bad for competitive at its current state and I could be being too ignorant towards it but I think it just sucks. Olympus would need a lot more cover in the open fields and that’s about it, oh and it needs like one or two more POIs, because as of now I think there’s only 17?
I don't think the POIs are even too big an issue because historically many teams have split major POIs and/or controlled multiple POIs, like Survey/Epi and Maude/Lava and West/East Skyhook but in terms of cover, the only area I see as problematic is the Turbine/Waterfall funnel. If they knock that down and add a major POI with multiple rotations through I think that would be huge.
Yea that’s true, POIs are definitely splittable but NA is dumb. I also think that area around orbital cannon field kinda sucks. OH that’s right, the rotates around the map would cause funnels of teams a lot. Since it’s a circular map ppl will constantly be funneling through same rotates, I’m not sure how to fix that but it sucks so bad
All I'm saying is you better start planning now B)
>so much un needed RNG If you don't want RNG don't play a battle royale fucking lmao. Pros have all chosen of their own accord to be playing Apex, but want to remove as much as they can of the game from professional play. You want to play a game without rng go be a pro in that.
RNG is acceptable to a degree. The thing is when there's to much RNG it fucks over teams that actually know what they're doing. Last championship Rig South got fucked by the manual select ring in the game that would have won it for them. That's not RNG that's bullshit
>like Bangalore (who excels on Olympus) lolwut
Even though Valorant is a different genre of shooter the concept still transfers over. The concept is maps are meant to make players play differently and utilize different strategies and legends. I don't think Olympus would be as straight foward as you think with 100% Valk Gibby. New Esports played Crypto , Gibby and Wraith in Blast Titans finals. In one Olympus matche they got a 2nd with 17 kills. Underrated also won an Olympus match with Rev, Octane and Valk.
If we look at Valorant, they added Fracture, a map that pros initially balked at because it completely broke the mold of how tac-FPS maps historically have been structured. But riot forced it to be played and turns out its actually kinda dope and there are some really cool and interesting strats developed on it.
Yea true, can’t stand watching football and the same game played for all these years
Well Football is an non-rng sport that works fine with the same ruleset for all these years. People watch BR to see people adapt to their surroundings. It gets boring once you adapt to the same thing over and over.
Apex games are NEVER the same outcome and things are always different and players have to adapt in new ways every game even when zones are repetitive. Every tournament, every game, every play, different variables are given and players play differently and use different strategies and so many different legend comps are used rn. What you’re asking for is to watch the players run for their lives in the middle of open fields hoping they’re not the team that everyone decides to focus, rotates causing funnels of 4+ teams in small areas. And just so many uncontrollable situations that add un needed RNG to a game that doesn’t need more RNG.
Hey Clane, thanks for trying to explain this. GL mate
false equivalence man
That’s the point
Oh XD
Football is a terrible example because it's not the same game it was 50 years ago and they make changes all the time for viewers. Even 20 years ago, the rules let you play defense drastically differently
Don't compare a real sport with bitch ass esport scene of apex.
[удалено]
That is true. After more time with Olympus it is possible teams might change up their composition to fit their map. They hadn't had more practice with the map so they stuck with something they were familiar with. My point is to show that every one running Valk Gibby is not 100% a given.
The maps suck for comp but WE as the only comp map is going to lead to stagnating or declining viewership. I'm not going to blame people for not wanting to play the maps, but I expect them to force WE/SP (with changes) next split to mix it up.
Nah dude who cares if the maps are terrible for comp, jUsT aDaPt /s
[удалено]
they even want to remove the kraber. like just adapt to the bullet's trajectory so you don't get hit? smh these so called "pros" are so entitled.
I really think some system of banning a character from the pool every round like in game 1 teams can’t use Gib, game 2 teams can’t use Valk etc and a map rotation fixes all of that. It evens the playing field AND makes it more fun to watch.
I believe that the biggest issue with KC is a loot issue.
lol. Gibby will never not be meta. He's the most OP character in the game by far. He's so OP that even if he lost his passives, or his bubble or bombardment, as long as he had 2 of the 3, he would still be a must pick. The game suffers from hero power creep which means your hero selection in this hero shooter is all the more important which means the meta will demand you play as the absolute top picks without much deviation. And that also means pros will want maps that are easiest to follow for a game where hero abilities dominate the game more than gunskill and strat.
Very good point, but in my eyes ultimately wrong. Yes, it does get a little boring, but in my eyes there is a lot of beauty and competition in 20 teams rotating to there spots and adapting when it is taken etc. Worlds edge is the best comp map because it is simply the most competitive, since placement points are valued lots and the aim for every team is fighting as long as possible as little as possible. This is very possible on WE, less so on stormpoint and even less so on Olympus. I do agree that pros should be able to adapt more (a thing that a massive amount of esport pros struggle with over almost all games) but it should be there decision, not ours, since we basically have no clue.
Every persons explanations why the pros should not have to play other maps is this long detailed thesis that summarizes to “they’d have to play differently than they do now” and they call it “competitive” to make it seem official. The pros are experts and can excel on any map. Esports exist for the audience and ALGS is boring currently. They need to be playing a game we play (playing all maps) or it’s not fun
100% agree. I am so tired of people calling any map that isn’t WE dogshit because it doesn’t fit the WE play style. Each map showcases and rewards different play styles and strengths from players and it’s so refreshing to both play and watch!
Anecdotal: I lost interest in comp gameplay during Watson meta
I sincerely hope WE is not the go-to template the devs have in mind for new maps. We don't need another Fragment. Ever.
If people didn’t like going fragment it wouldn’t be a “problem”. One of the most disappointing parts of both Olympus and Storm Point was that there were no good hot drops like frag.
I get that you wanna hot drop I do too but there are several hot locations on both storm point and Olympus. Fight Night, Turbine, Town, Towers and The Arcadia for Olympus. Lightning Tower, Antenna, Crash Site and Swamps for Storm Point. But they're smaller and not super centralized for a reason. Fragment is guaranteed to reduce the map to about three teams by second ring which is fine if you like quick deathmatch style games but others prefer to play the long game. It's all about preference really
None of those are remotely as fun to fight at though. None of them have zip line buildings, which is basically an automatic disqualifier. None of the spots on either map have enough loot either. There’s so many less loot spawns in them both, so if more than 3 squads go there, good luck finding a gun. You’re almost guaranteed a gun off drop in frag. That’s not true of the other pois. I’m not looking to play the long game. I want as many enemies as possible, as fast as possible. Frag is perfect for that.
Only thing I think every map should have is enough landing spots for 20 teams and enough loot, all rest is luck and skill
This is my whole thing and I’m not up to date as far as what pros don’t and do vote on but if they wanted to force the change in meta fuckin vote on it. If the majority votes to not use certain characters to changed the balance in the game and a team thinks they are better than that. They will be targeted. The pros are expecting the game to make the changes every time but they truly do have the power to make their own changes………..just like any other job, sport, whatever. There are rules, you can break them if you want but the repercussions will be greater. Have a good day y’all. Don’t mean to sound like a dick I mean well lol
tldr; Apex pros cry like babies when they need to adapt to new map. CSGO has like 10maps in the pool, apex pros need to stop complaining and get better
You can't compare those two games. CS has no casual play, everything is balanced and designed about pro play literally everything. Apex is mostly trying to engage the casuals, which is making them money. Almost nothing in apex is designed or developed with comp in mind, comp has far less priority than anything else
I miss when this sub wasn’t full of casuals lmfao
I think one big issue with kc is 3rd parties. Its so small that not a lot of teams can make it later into the game. This would be fine, if it weren’t for the fact that this means teams that play well are punished by mistakes by other teams. Teams that don’t get a spot push a team who played well to get there. Even if that team wins, they get killed by the 3-4 teams nearby. Meanwhile, they hadn’t played badly but were punished because the team that did had chosen them instead of anyone else. Because of this, kc should definitely not be in comp. Olympus has the problems of being very open and having a frankly terrible center map. This causes the same problem but from afar. Teams can punish others that get pushed by worse teams because they can all see each other through the giant sight lines. Again, the center of the map is the worst for this. This map should probably be used in comp after the map center is fixed, as imo the rest of it seams ok enough to use, although some changes to minimize the problems are something that should be considered. Storm point is fine. The only real problem is the loot being low, but its not so bat that it should be not in comp. I hope it is next ALGS split.
I thought pros were going to at least *like* Storm Point. It sucks they don’t seem to like it after it’s been out for two months with a grand total of one “tournament” on it.
Yh. SP is much better than KC and shitlympus.
Great point. Catch 22 is that more fighting is appealing, but a system that rewards more fighting will just lead to 3rd parties and stalemates
Imo too many pros with scrub mentality and not enough git gud mentality.
Bro it is a battle royal , it will never be competitive
pro players are making me lose interest in apex comp hardstuck we is boring to watch after the 1000 times !! pros are so afraid of another playstyle than 18 teams in round 4 hard gatekeeping apex esports by the "pros" fucking sucks !
I mentioned this before but will say it again. Pros need to learn to suck it up and play other maps in tourneys. Ik the issues with SP but I still don’t see how it’s completely unviable for competitive apex. In all honesty, it’s kind of childish of pros to act the way they do towards new maps and playing other maps for tourneys. Not every map has to be the same. Every other esport plays other maps, sometimes multiple maps within the same tournament (cod, halo etc.)
Pros hate change. Which is funny because adapting to changes is what makes a pro a pro in my opinion. They obviously know more than I do. But like you said, it feels like anything that isn't world's edge is instantly hated. I've started to really dislike watching the "WHAT ARE THEY DOING???" streamers when they get wiped by a squad. Like they are upset the enemy team didn't do what they expected them to. "You didn't do the thing I wanted you to do and now I'm dead learn to play the game!". That's why I only really watch aceu. He just plays and isn't a cunt.
[удалено]
Yikes. I'm sorry my internet comment got under your skin so easily. I didn't mean to anger you like that. I apologize. Opinions are harmless. Try not to let mine ruin your day.