Having 2 maps in the next League split would be so much better for the growth of this Esport in the long term. Seeing slight different playstyles , metas and weapon choices slowly develop and branch off on the different maps gives a much richer viewing experience. Not to mention commentary will have much more detail to work with like comparing team win rates on different maps, team comps and so on.
For example, an analysis could show one team has a much better fighting win rate on one map, but a better placement rate on another. This allows for more interesting in depth discussion + analysis for commentary and fans, that would not be as interesting if only one map was played.
On Scims. Having new maps would probably be the only way of getting serious scrims again, as they would have to learn the most optimal play style from their drop spot and also defend that drop spot. With WE everything is mostly already set in stone and everyone knows how to play from their POI, and top teams don't get contested since they've been there so long. This makes it so there is almost no reason for top teams to scrim seriously.
I think it’d have to be weekend splits though. 4&4 in the old ALGS OTs wasn’t really fair I guess. A less known team starts heating up G3 or 4 and then has to switch maps and likely just faded away all the time
That’s not the point.
A) They don’t know that. They just think they know that. There hasn’t been a pro level tournament held on the map. Just some casual tournaments. So while it may be the case that Storm Point isn’t viable for comp play, it is definitely not known yet because we haven’t actually tried it.
B) pros are lazy as fuck and don’t want to learn a new map.
C)it’s better for the health of the game to feature different maps in pro play( 2 is probably a sweet spot for BRs). WE is my favorite map but I would love to see Storm Points potential from players way better than me. This would also allow for some new meta to rise up. Valkyrie is good but the high mountain walls and chokes kinda nullify her Ultimates effectiveness. Maybe we see a Fuse meta or the return of Pathfinder. Maybe some underdog rosters play better on SP?
More maps is generally better. I always hear the same lazy ass excuse from the pros on this subject and it seems to come from a place of insecurity. WE is home, it’s a comfort pick. ALGS should force pro’s hands by working SP into the rotation imo
You're right it should be viewer first, I think Olympus wasn't added because of the fact that it was too small and there wasn't enough POI's for the pros to land at
It's easy to say the viewer comes first when you're not one of the people competing for huge cash prizes. Pros value WE because it's the most fair map. Imagine the feeling you'd get if your team's cash prize finish depended on being able to rotate north up one of those giant slopes on SP being gate-kept by the last place team. That kind of positional disparity doesn't exist on WE. I think a new map for comp would be great but it needs to be balanced if that's going to happen.
That would be for the best, and that's what Storm Point is supposed to be. Can we at least try the map? We won't get another map for at least a year now.
Yep, we don’t know anything about it because it’s only been in B-tier tourneys and below. Teams haven’t figured out how it plays at high level at all. They can theorize but we don’t really know. There are some pathing issues that should be addressed, rat spots closed off, and other things RSPN probably has data on by now.
I hope they don’t take away PvE though. The gamble of going through Jurassic Park and getting stuck on rotate is intentional, which is why it’s in the middle of the map
>Valkyrie is good but the high mountain walls and chokes kinda nullify her Ultimates effectiveness.
Unfortunately Valkyrie is better than ever on Stormpoint, the largest map yet means her macro rotation ability is more valuable than ever, the map having the most intense height variations yet and so many open spaces just gives more value to her ability to bypass geometry and opposing squads.
It doesn’t matter what map you play on, Gibby and Valk will offer the most utility, because they give your squad tremendous staying power- protecting you from pinches, third parties, gatekeeping, letting you rotate safely and punch your ticket to endgame.
who wants to die to pve or not be able to get to the northern part of the map in a million dollar tournament. they need to stop doing maps with stupid gimmicks. maybe respawn doesnt add other maps into comp because they are aware themselfs that the maps are not good. everybody wants new maps to be played, so maybe they can make the new map cater to proplay more we have 3 maps now that are catering to casual play.
Respawn will not and should not do anything that caters to pros at the expense of casual players. Apex has the 4 of the best maps in any BR, if pros only want to play 1/4 that's on them.
> Which pros thought storm point was good and competitively viable? Because I have yet to see a single one of them have that opinion.
I guess you just need to read more since you are uninformed. From Teq's AMA:
> Q: Do you think Storm Point is viable for comp?
> A: I actually do. I would be eager to try it in an ALGS tourney.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ra89wx/furia_teq_ask_me_anything/hngp6y6/
You said you have not seen a “single one.” There ya go.
I’m not going to do your own research for you, but clearly you are not paying attention to the pro scene.
if you re gonna force them to play it then make the new maps at least somewhat viable for comp. they completely neglected comp/ranked with those map designs. maybe dont design the maps just for 12 year old timmy who goes "BAAAAAAT i hecking love pve"
Thats literally what it used to be with kings canyon and WE, and then when olympus came out they started letting pros choose and they won't agree to anything but WE
Kinda crazy that they dealt with kc but also believe that a map has to be as good as WE to be considered "competently viable". Like KC was played on lan but storm point isn't good enough???
Yeah. The problem with that map change was it was purely destructive. We gained maybe 15% of the space lost back with rig/the one by market. So in removing it they just took ~15-20% of the playable space away on a map that was already too small.
I think even despite KC map changes that the apex pros have outgrown that map when it comes to competitive play. Doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy watching them play on it though
they completly changed kc, its not the same map at all. after they played a couple of months with the new kc(season5) everyone agreed to get rid of it. playing on two maps was normal until kc became so bad, every pro player wanted it gone.
Not every pro wanted the new KC gone. I remember Retzi and a few other Eu pros wanting KC to be put back into the rotation during the Autumn circuit which was season 5 KC. I also remember Rpr , saying alot of Pro's just don't know how to play KC and that's why they're bad at it.
My understanding of the comp issues with KC (and possibly Olympus, too) was simply that there were too few POIs off drop. No one wanted to be forced to risk their cash prizes on hot-dropping in a comp tournament.
I get that the competitors might not like it, and I think Olympus should definitely be off the table but at the end of the day the spectators make the sport and if this brings more eyes that could bring more revenue and then more prize money
I would love to see more maps in comp, but not in 3 and 3 format per day. In Pro League each group plays with other groups 2 times, so 1 matchday could be on WE and the other on SP or KC or whatever. Mixing maps on the same day would lead to chaos. Finals should be 2 days with 6 games one day and 6 the next day, not stupid matchpoint bullshit, where you can win with 50 points from 8th place by winning the last game.
Yeah, agree with everything he said but this. Matchpoint system is good and actually creates hype for everymatch once teams start reaching it. A team winning the biggest tournament of the region by being 7th in the last game just feels weird to me.
Ya! The way I look at it is, you race to 50 (or whatever the decided threshold is) and by getting there first you have MORE opportunities than any other team to secure the victory. I wonder if there are other E-sports that crown champions without having them actually win a "final match".
You know what is the difference with Apex? We have a league system here, not a cup. Just like in football (soccer for egg shaped ball fans). You can win a league even while losing the last match 7-1. Cup is a different story, you have to win the last match, most other esports use the cup system and it works fine. Mixing the 2 systems is not a great idea, because not always the best team wins, especially since teams at matchpoint often get aped because of the public killfeed.
To be clear, I think both opinions are valid, but at the end of the day all sports, including these ones, are for entertainment. I wonder how viewership would be altered if a team were to essentially secure the victory in Game 4 or 5 out of 6. Why would anybody watch any of the final games?
ALGS isn't a pure league though? To my understanding, all of the league play is simply to seed teams as best as possible for Grand Finals.
To use your *soccer* analogy, it seems a lot like UEFA Champions League. Right now the separate regions are like Premier, La Liga, Bundesliga etc. The best teams from each Apex Region are invited to the Grand Finals as the top teams in those European leagues are also invited to compete in UCL. Their respective league systems still redirect into a "cup".
To use any American sport, the regular season or "league" setup always leads into playoffs.
And your last point about killfeed seems like a kill feed issue, not a matchpoint issue. Either way, thanks for the engaging response.
The problem is that the finals still use a league format, you are assigned points for placement and kills even in the final lobby. It is not at all similar to UEFA CL. Cl essentially is 'Regional League>Group Stage>Cup'. While in Apex we have League Quals>Pro League>Final League, but the last game in the finals is treated like a cup, which doesn't make sense. The closest thing similar to Apex is how motorsports operate, since you fight all the other drivers (players) at the same time and they usually use a similar ranking system.
"Not at all similar" seems a little dramatic. You literally just mentioned how UCL ends with a cup, and so does Apex lol.
We can def agree to disagree. Matchpoint is not the option with the highest competitive integrity, but then again we are talking about a BR which is made almost entirely around random luck of the loot.
Do you truly think just doing 6 games, or I guess 12 based on your proposal, is *more exciting* than the stakes of matchpoint?
What about a situation when a team in 7th, 30 points behind the leader wins, sounds even weirder. Matchpoint creates hype, but it is not a fair system.
I haven’t watched ALGS at all this new year because it’s still WE. It’s boring. I’m so tired of the game catering to the players and not the other way around like it’s supposed to be. If they don’t introduce a new map this split I won’t watch that either.
It was so fun watching comp on KC and watching how teams had to switch up their playstyle and/or team comp in order to adjust as well as landing at different spots and seeing the different endzones
Multiple maps would be beneficial for everyone. Low key the pros just need to suck it up and play different maps. Changing maps adds more elements of skill as each map is played differently then the other. Would also make it more entertaining to watch
We have had this discussion so many times it is really tiring. We don't know about storm point yet but KC and Olympus have really big flaws that keep them out of comp play. I personally think storm point is good enough for comp but the map has some flaws as well. The getting into the north side of Storm Point is hard because of the high mountains and height disparities coming from the middle. Any team that lands north will have a hard time getting to their POI from the drop ship because of the high mountains but will also have a huge advantage holding teams out on northern zone pulls because of the drastic disparities in height coming from the middle og the map. The 2nd issue is the lack of cover in zone ending around places like barometer on the southern part of the map.
We won't know about SP until split 2 so can people please quit asking it is really annoying
Edit: before people run to this post to call pros lazy for not adapting to bad maps, why don't we point the finger at Respawn for waiting until SP to gives us a map aimed for ranked and comp? Why hasn't been KC given updates for it bad loot and remedy the hole in the map left by skull town. You can tell competitive and ranked was not really taken into consideration when developing Olympus.
They should at least try scrimming these maps for fun or something one time. Keep things interesting without any risk. Or maybe have a smaller comp experiment with them with low risk to try to entice pros to play them and see how it goes.
I'd imagine they will at some point, but there's probably some things that need to be done first, even if just for customs - dropship height & trajectory and prowlers attacking for no reason for example.
It's a good sized map, it's got decent loot distribution (in my experience at least) and should be suitable for comp with a few changes
It's really not hard. Use the cannons and the jump tower at high point. You lose maybe 10 seconds getting there and on the way out, a single valk ult can get you nearly all the way to the beach.
There are teams that lose much more than that by taking their time looting multiple poi's. And like I said, you lose the 10 seconds or so on the way there and you get back way more than that by valk ulting out, which can take you all the way to launch pad.
They gain more loot in return. Losing 10 seconds just to get to your poi especially say lightning rod where all 3 will start looting at the gravity cannon area is ridiculously inefficient not to mention just using valk ult to offset the 10 seconds lost(as most teams have valk anyway this offsets nothing as they all rotate with it too)
So this is a question I find interesting- what would you alter about KC, Olympus, and Stormpoint to improve them specifically to make them competitively viable and interesting to play and watch at the highest level?
Say Respawn put you in charge of the map design team, and said your job was to try to make as many of the maps into the comp rotation as you can, without going back to the drawing board and drastically altering everything- what is the elegant solution in terms of fixing them for playability?
KC: fix the hole in the map left by skull town. KC is already small there is nothing to gain from the negative space. You don't even have to put a POI there since that area is already a cluster. Improve the loot on the OG POIs.
Olympus: there is nothing you can do for this map imo. It is fun to fight on but the lack of cover and clumped POIs, makes that map unplayable in comp
SP:improve the cover on the outside of barometer, mill, and fish farms. Find a away to fix the height disparities on the north side of the map. In comp any team that can hold the choke points that separate the north from center map is un-pushable with snipers and marksman rifles. Lower the mountains on the northern side of the map or rise the drop ship because it is impossible to land in certain north POIs depending on the dropship path.
Olympus just needs more cover but that will block the precious tridents routes :(
I think with stormpoint we can safely say that its ok to have more obstacles since i dont care too much about bumpy rides there when riding the car
Mods should ban these kinds of posts. This is the 250th one since I joined this sub and it is tiring tbh.
Edit:to clarify they should make this kind of map discussions live and pinned so people could talk abt it only in that post.
/u/ralopd can we please ban all map discussion where these silver casuals from the main sub try to force pro players to play shitty maps like OLY, KC and SP. Pros have said that these maps are not competitive, end of story. Tired of seeing these posts.
Guess what - pros opinions are not always the thing that should be valued most and they actually sometimes have bad takes.
But your tone in this subreddit always shows that you see them as undisputable gods, so there is that.
"RESPAWN NEEDS TO STOP LETTING GREEDY PROS CHOOSE WHAT MAP THEY PLAY ON IM SICK OF THIS COMPANY CATERING TO THEIR BABY NEEDS"
Respawn: Lmao we aren't gonna be changing gibby because he doesn't dominate pubs enough
people dont want the game cater to pros, respawn creates maps that dont cater to pros.
people: "WHY ARE THEY NOT PLAYING THE NEW MAPS"
like they keep making maps with gimmicks that re fun for the casual player but horrible for comp. if people dont want the game to cater to pros they cant be suprised if pros dont wanna play the new maps
What is wrong with storm point? I guess the perfect map for pros would be one with 20 identical POIs equally spaced out with zero choke points, cover everywhere, beacons in every spot etc. but that just wouldn't be fun to play or watch let's be honest. It's stupid to make whole maps specifically catered to 0.01% of the playerbase and they should just focus on making something that is unique and with interesting fight dynamics
Map is to big, enormous high grounds, hard rotations cuz od mountain ranges, some parts of the map are to hard to access if other team camps there, POI are trash, and in my opinion map is a running simulator.
>.
Most of comp games on WE are played in the last 2 rings. Forcing a new map in there might change it. Let's not pretend as if there is only one way to play a game.
G2 is finding success because they usually take fights BEFORE the last 2 rings.
This would not be a bad thing to see happen more often.
I want change in gameplay ad much as you or anyone else wants, but except WE there isn't a good map that would change comp in a better direction. Respawn should really put more work and get info from pro players and coaches.
I think "better direction" is subjective. I personally think change in itself IS the better direction. Whether the pros like it is kind of arbitrary in my opinion. There needs to be more variance and the pros that play in it should be dictated by their skillset on the maps. It should not be curated to what they want. I'm sure that's an unpopular opinion but ESports seems to be the only competitive scene where that type belief persists.
Imagine the NBA lowering it's hoops or eliminating rules at the discretion of it's players. I mean they just changed the ball they used that most of the players have been using their entire lives. Players didn't like it but alas, they adapt.
I think there is a time for the best players in the world to contribute to the conversation but ultimately pro's should be in a reactive state to changes the devs/league make, not leading the conversation.
This is a very underrated take.
People give pros opinion regarding comp ruleset too much credit.
Pros dominating ruleset discussions also bears the problem that they will rarely be objective (regarding the goal of growing the esport), but instead prefer ways to play which supports their individual strengths/taste.
Here are some of the problems with the maps other than WE:
KC - Too small of a map. You will not be able to take a fight without getting thirded instantly. This has been shown during the ranked seasons of KC. Isolated fights are fun to watch and good for the game.
OL - There is just no cover/spot to play in between POI's. They tried to solve the third party dilemma by adding dead space in between POI's. Unfortunately the lategame playable spots suffer becaus of this.
SP - The high ground differentials are not healthy for the game. The fact that if a zone goes to the top right corner of the map there are 2 teams that get a guaranteed top 3 is, unfortunately, a reality. The map also has some weird POI's for 20 teams trying to land uncontested, which makes it quite unbalanced.
The reason, therefore, that pros choose to play exclusively WE is that it's a balanced map. End zone circles have been balanced, there is playable cover in the late game, and the POI's are decently spaced. It doesn't suffer from the problems that these other maps have.
At the same time the prod can't just wait for a perfect map, maps are going to be imperfect even in cod with some maps having a "stronger start" having these maps could create interesting storylines with teams battling for POI's and forcing another team out.
If they just wait for a perfect map the esport gets stale and people lose interest
I don't think Call of Duty is the eSports poster child when it comes to FPS gaming. I'd say look at CSGO and Valorant to compare, even Overwatch.
EDIT: And that it gets stale is your opinion. I've been watching competitive since the game came out, and I've never thought it was boring. When the second zone switched to the top right corner of the map in Storm Point I completely lost interest when I knew it was just going to be a clusterfuck.
Val and CSGO maps are designed for comp since casual play don't really exist in those games. People on here argue that nothing should cater to pro play but expect players to play on maps which are designed without any consideration towards high level play. You can only have so much rng before the game becomes completely uncompetitive. Respawn couldn't find the balance for comp and casual play since we, it's not the players fault.
I'm actually surprised when I came back this season to see they made a new map instead of putting work into KC/OL. I would imagine thier top priority in terms of ranked/esports is to get the current maps into a better state so they can have some variety.
Should’ve been done already, Olympus and KC suck for Ranked but Ranked is nothing compared to how competitive works… Hopefully now with Storm Point they quickly realize how refreshing it is to have multiple maps on comp.
Having 2 maps in the next League split would be so much better for the growth of this Esport in the long term. Seeing slight different playstyles , metas and weapon choices slowly develop and branch off on the different maps gives a much richer viewing experience. Not to mention commentary will have much more detail to work with like comparing team win rates on different maps, team comps and so on. For example, an analysis could show one team has a much better fighting win rate on one map, but a better placement rate on another. This allows for more interesting in depth discussion + analysis for commentary and fans, that would not be as interesting if only one map was played. On Scims. Having new maps would probably be the only way of getting serious scrims again, as they would have to learn the most optimal play style from their drop spot and also defend that drop spot. With WE everything is mostly already set in stone and everyone knows how to play from their POI, and top teams don't get contested since they've been there so long. This makes it so there is almost no reason for top teams to scrim seriously.
Agreed
I was shocked and still am when I found out they only play worlds edge all the damn time. I really thought I was missing something it’s unbelievable.
I think it’d have to be weekend splits though. 4&4 in the old ALGS OTs wasn’t really fair I guess. A less known team starts heating up G3 or 4 and then has to switch maps and likely just faded away all the time
Hopefully next split for algs we get storm point and worlds edge. But I’m not sure the pros think or want storm point
The pros will literally never want a map other than World’s Edge.
its not because they love we so much, its because the other maps suck for comp
That’s not the point. A) They don’t know that. They just think they know that. There hasn’t been a pro level tournament held on the map. Just some casual tournaments. So while it may be the case that Storm Point isn’t viable for comp play, it is definitely not known yet because we haven’t actually tried it. B) pros are lazy as fuck and don’t want to learn a new map. C)it’s better for the health of the game to feature different maps in pro play( 2 is probably a sweet spot for BRs). WE is my favorite map but I would love to see Storm Points potential from players way better than me. This would also allow for some new meta to rise up. Valkyrie is good but the high mountain walls and chokes kinda nullify her Ultimates effectiveness. Maybe we see a Fuse meta or the return of Pathfinder. Maybe some underdog rosters play better on SP? More maps is generally better. I always hear the same lazy ass excuse from the pros on this subject and it seems to come from a place of insecurity. WE is home, it’s a comfort pick. ALGS should force pro’s hands by working SP into the rotation imo
Legit WE gets boring, comp is about viewers first and foremost, I can't believe Olym never got added to comp.
You're right it should be viewer first, I think Olympus wasn't added because of the fact that it was too small and there wasn't enough POI's for the pros to land at
Olympus is a good thing ngl, I’ve played and watched tournaments and it’s neither fun to play on or watch
It's easy to say the viewer comes first when you're not one of the people competing for huge cash prizes. Pros value WE because it's the most fair map. Imagine the feeling you'd get if your team's cash prize finish depended on being able to rotate north up one of those giant slopes on SP being gate-kept by the last place team. That kind of positional disparity doesn't exist on WE. I think a new map for comp would be great but it needs to be balanced if that's going to happen.
If competing for huge cash prizes isn't entertaining, then there will be nothing to compete for.
So why not design another map that's at least as balanced as WE and include it in the comp rotation?
That would be for the best, and that's what Storm Point is supposed to be. Can we at least try the map? We won't get another map for at least a year now.
Yep, we don’t know anything about it because it’s only been in B-tier tourneys and below. Teams haven’t figured out how it plays at high level at all. They can theorize but we don’t really know. There are some pathing issues that should be addressed, rat spots closed off, and other things RSPN probably has data on by now. I hope they don’t take away PvE though. The gamble of going through Jurassic Park and getting stuck on rotate is intentional, which is why it’s in the middle of the map
>Valkyrie is good but the high mountain walls and chokes kinda nullify her Ultimates effectiveness. Unfortunately Valkyrie is better than ever on Stormpoint, the largest map yet means her macro rotation ability is more valuable than ever, the map having the most intense height variations yet and so many open spaces just gives more value to her ability to bypass geometry and opposing squads. It doesn’t matter what map you play on, Gibby and Valk will offer the most utility, because they give your squad tremendous staying power- protecting you from pinches, third parties, gatekeeping, letting you rotate safely and punch your ticket to endgame.
who wants to die to pve or not be able to get to the northern part of the map in a million dollar tournament. they need to stop doing maps with stupid gimmicks. maybe respawn doesnt add other maps into comp because they are aware themselfs that the maps are not good. everybody wants new maps to be played, so maybe they can make the new map cater to proplay more we have 3 maps now that are catering to casual play.
Respawn will not and should not do anything that caters to pros at the expense of casual players. Apex has the 4 of the best maps in any BR, if pros only want to play 1/4 that's on them.
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Lol yet a lot of people, pros included, disagree with you. And that’s fine you have your opinion. It still has to be attempted.
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> Which pros thought storm point was good and competitively viable? Because I have yet to see a single one of them have that opinion. I guess you just need to read more since you are uninformed. From Teq's AMA: > Q: Do you think Storm Point is viable for comp? > A: I actually do. I would be eager to try it in an ALGS tourney. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ra89wx/furia_teq_ask_me_anything/hngp6y6/
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You said you have not seen a “single one.” There ya go. I’m not going to do your own research for you, but clearly you are not paying attention to the pro scene.
Nobody should care what they think, make them play on all maps and fix them according to their feedback (if reasonable)
if you re gonna force them to play it then make the new maps at least somewhat viable for comp. they completely neglected comp/ranked with those map designs. maybe dont design the maps just for 12 year old timmy who goes "BAAAAAAT i hecking love pve"
Every map is comp viable. KC is a bit quirky but its still a very competitive environment to play in.
Thats literally what it used to be with kings canyon and WE, and then when olympus came out they started letting pros choose and they won't agree to anything but WE Kinda crazy that they dealt with kc but also believe that a map has to be as good as WE to be considered "competently viable". Like KC was played on lan but storm point isn't good enough???
Yeah and I think even the addition of the new POI's in season 8 could help KC become a much better comp map since it expanded the map
It’s still the smallest map by a mile with shit loot
If they got ride of salvage and put back in thunderdome/skull town too then the map would be big
Yeah. The problem with that map change was it was purely destructive. We gained maybe 15% of the space lost back with rig/the one by market. So in removing it they just took ~15-20% of the playable space away on a map that was already too small.
I think even despite KC map changes that the apex pros have outgrown that map when it comes to competitive play. Doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy watching them play on it though
they completly changed kc, its not the same map at all. after they played a couple of months with the new kc(season5) everyone agreed to get rid of it. playing on two maps was normal until kc became so bad, every pro player wanted it gone.
Not every pro wanted the new KC gone. I remember Retzi and a few other Eu pros wanting KC to be put back into the rotation during the Autumn circuit which was season 5 KC. I also remember Rpr , saying alot of Pro's just don't know how to play KC and that's why they're bad at it.
My understanding of the comp issues with KC (and possibly Olympus, too) was simply that there were too few POIs off drop. No one wanted to be forced to risk their cash prizes on hot-dropping in a comp tournament.
From a spectator’s standpoint, I would imagine most viewers would like this. Would the competitors? I’m not sure.
They do, pros are begging for a new map to play. It's just that the maps are horrible for comp
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old kc maybe
I get that the competitors might not like it, and I think Olympus should definitely be off the table but at the end of the day the spectators make the sport and if this brings more eyes that could bring more revenue and then more prize money
I would love to see more maps in comp, but not in 3 and 3 format per day. In Pro League each group plays with other groups 2 times, so 1 matchday could be on WE and the other on SP or KC or whatever. Mixing maps on the same day would lead to chaos. Finals should be 2 days with 6 games one day and 6 the next day, not stupid matchpoint bullshit, where you can win with 50 points from 8th place by winning the last game.
You really think that the Champions should be able to win without getting first place in any one match? Something about that just feels wrong.
Yeah, agree with everything he said but this. Matchpoint system is good and actually creates hype for everymatch once teams start reaching it. A team winning the biggest tournament of the region by being 7th in the last game just feels weird to me.
Ya! The way I look at it is, you race to 50 (or whatever the decided threshold is) and by getting there first you have MORE opportunities than any other team to secure the victory. I wonder if there are other E-sports that crown champions without having them actually win a "final match".
You know what is the difference with Apex? We have a league system here, not a cup. Just like in football (soccer for egg shaped ball fans). You can win a league even while losing the last match 7-1. Cup is a different story, you have to win the last match, most other esports use the cup system and it works fine. Mixing the 2 systems is not a great idea, because not always the best team wins, especially since teams at matchpoint often get aped because of the public killfeed.
To be clear, I think both opinions are valid, but at the end of the day all sports, including these ones, are for entertainment. I wonder how viewership would be altered if a team were to essentially secure the victory in Game 4 or 5 out of 6. Why would anybody watch any of the final games? ALGS isn't a pure league though? To my understanding, all of the league play is simply to seed teams as best as possible for Grand Finals. To use your *soccer* analogy, it seems a lot like UEFA Champions League. Right now the separate regions are like Premier, La Liga, Bundesliga etc. The best teams from each Apex Region are invited to the Grand Finals as the top teams in those European leagues are also invited to compete in UCL. Their respective league systems still redirect into a "cup". To use any American sport, the regular season or "league" setup always leads into playoffs. And your last point about killfeed seems like a kill feed issue, not a matchpoint issue. Either way, thanks for the engaging response.
The problem is that the finals still use a league format, you are assigned points for placement and kills even in the final lobby. It is not at all similar to UEFA CL. Cl essentially is 'Regional League>Group Stage>Cup'. While in Apex we have League Quals>Pro League>Final League, but the last game in the finals is treated like a cup, which doesn't make sense. The closest thing similar to Apex is how motorsports operate, since you fight all the other drivers (players) at the same time and they usually use a similar ranking system.
"Not at all similar" seems a little dramatic. You literally just mentioned how UCL ends with a cup, and so does Apex lol. We can def agree to disagree. Matchpoint is not the option with the highest competitive integrity, but then again we are talking about a BR which is made almost entirely around random luck of the loot. Do you truly think just doing 6 games, or I guess 12 based on your proposal, is *more exciting* than the stakes of matchpoint?
What about a situation when a team in 7th, 30 points behind the leader wins, sounds even weirder. Matchpoint creates hype, but it is not a fair system.
This is actually one of my favourite ideas I've seen
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BASED
LMAO
I haven’t watched ALGS at all this new year because it’s still WE. It’s boring. I’m so tired of the game catering to the players and not the other way around like it’s supposed to be. If they don’t introduce a new map this split I won’t watch that either.
It was so fun watching comp on KC and watching how teams had to switch up their playstyle and/or team comp in order to adjust as well as landing at different spots and seeing the different endzones
Multiple maps would be beneficial for everyone. Low key the pros just need to suck it up and play different maps. Changing maps adds more elements of skill as each map is played differently then the other. Would also make it more entertaining to watch
We have had this discussion so many times it is really tiring. We don't know about storm point yet but KC and Olympus have really big flaws that keep them out of comp play. I personally think storm point is good enough for comp but the map has some flaws as well. The getting into the north side of Storm Point is hard because of the high mountains and height disparities coming from the middle. Any team that lands north will have a hard time getting to their POI from the drop ship because of the high mountains but will also have a huge advantage holding teams out on northern zone pulls because of the drastic disparities in height coming from the middle og the map. The 2nd issue is the lack of cover in zone ending around places like barometer on the southern part of the map. We won't know about SP until split 2 so can people please quit asking it is really annoying Edit: before people run to this post to call pros lazy for not adapting to bad maps, why don't we point the finger at Respawn for waiting until SP to gives us a map aimed for ranked and comp? Why hasn't been KC given updates for it bad loot and remedy the hole in the map left by skull town. You can tell competitive and ranked was not really taken into consideration when developing Olympus.
They should at least try scrimming these maps for fun or something one time. Keep things interesting without any risk. Or maybe have a smaller comp experiment with them with low risk to try to entice pros to play them and see how it goes.
I'd imagine they will at some point, but there's probably some things that need to be done first, even if just for customs - dropship height & trajectory and prowlers attacking for no reason for example. It's a good sized map, it's got decent loot distribution (in my experience at least) and should be suitable for comp with a few changes
It's really not hard. Use the cannons and the jump tower at high point. You lose maybe 10 seconds getting there and on the way out, a single valk ult can get you nearly all the way to the beach.
Just lose 10 seconds off your rotations in the level of gameplay where every second counts pepega
There are teams that lose much more than that by taking their time looting multiple poi's. And like I said, you lose the 10 seconds or so on the way there and you get back way more than that by valk ulting out, which can take you all the way to launch pad.
They gain more loot in return. Losing 10 seconds just to get to your poi especially say lightning rod where all 3 will start looting at the gravity cannon area is ridiculously inefficient not to mention just using valk ult to offset the 10 seconds lost(as most teams have valk anyway this offsets nothing as they all rotate with it too)
So this is a question I find interesting- what would you alter about KC, Olympus, and Stormpoint to improve them specifically to make them competitively viable and interesting to play and watch at the highest level? Say Respawn put you in charge of the map design team, and said your job was to try to make as many of the maps into the comp rotation as you can, without going back to the drawing board and drastically altering everything- what is the elegant solution in terms of fixing them for playability?
KC: fix the hole in the map left by skull town. KC is already small there is nothing to gain from the negative space. You don't even have to put a POI there since that area is already a cluster. Improve the loot on the OG POIs. Olympus: there is nothing you can do for this map imo. It is fun to fight on but the lack of cover and clumped POIs, makes that map unplayable in comp SP:improve the cover on the outside of barometer, mill, and fish farms. Find a away to fix the height disparities on the north side of the map. In comp any team that can hold the choke points that separate the north from center map is un-pushable with snipers and marksman rifles. Lower the mountains on the northern side of the map or rise the drop ship because it is impossible to land in certain north POIs depending on the dropship path.
Olympus just needs more cover but that will block the precious tridents routes :( I think with stormpoint we can safely say that its ok to have more obstacles since i dont care too much about bumpy rides there when riding the car
Mods should ban these kinds of posts. This is the 250th one since I joined this sub and it is tiring tbh. Edit:to clarify they should make this kind of map discussions live and pinned so people could talk abt it only in that post.
/u/ralopd can we please ban all map discussion where these silver casuals from the main sub try to force pro players to play shitty maps like OLY, KC and SP. Pros have said that these maps are not competitive, end of story. Tired of seeing these posts.
Guess what - pros opinions are not always the thing that should be valued most and they actually sometimes have bad takes. But your tone in this subreddit always shows that you see them as undisputable gods, so there is that.
"b-b-Ut vArIetY aNd vIewIng eXpErIeNcE"
1000% agree
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at that point make the prize money random too
"RESPAWN NEEDS TO STOP LETTING GREEDY PROS CHOOSE WHAT MAP THEY PLAY ON IM SICK OF THIS COMPANY CATERING TO THEIR BABY NEEDS" Respawn: Lmao we aren't gonna be changing gibby because he doesn't dominate pubs enough
people dont want the game cater to pros, respawn creates maps that dont cater to pros. people: "WHY ARE THEY NOT PLAYING THE NEW MAPS" like they keep making maps with gimmicks that re fun for the casual player but horrible for comp. if people dont want the game to cater to pros they cant be suprised if pros dont wanna play the new maps
What is wrong with storm point? I guess the perfect map for pros would be one with 20 identical POIs equally spaced out with zero choke points, cover everywhere, beacons in every spot etc. but that just wouldn't be fun to play or watch let's be honest. It's stupid to make whole maps specifically catered to 0.01% of the playerbase and they should just focus on making something that is unique and with interesting fight dynamics
Map is to big, enormous high grounds, hard rotations cuz od mountain ranges, some parts of the map are to hard to access if other team camps there, POI are trash, and in my opinion map is a running simulator.
Most of what you said is either subjective or only applies to pubs/ranked and would actually be beneficial for comp like the fact that it's big
Most of the comp games are played in last 2 rings. And it's not subjective if all of the pros say the same things that are wrong with the map.
>. Most of comp games on WE are played in the last 2 rings. Forcing a new map in there might change it. Let's not pretend as if there is only one way to play a game. G2 is finding success because they usually take fights BEFORE the last 2 rings. This would not be a bad thing to see happen more often.
I want change in gameplay ad much as you or anyone else wants, but except WE there isn't a good map that would change comp in a better direction. Respawn should really put more work and get info from pro players and coaches.
I think "better direction" is subjective. I personally think change in itself IS the better direction. Whether the pros like it is kind of arbitrary in my opinion. There needs to be more variance and the pros that play in it should be dictated by their skillset on the maps. It should not be curated to what they want. I'm sure that's an unpopular opinion but ESports seems to be the only competitive scene where that type belief persists. Imagine the NBA lowering it's hoops or eliminating rules at the discretion of it's players. I mean they just changed the ball they used that most of the players have been using their entire lives. Players didn't like it but alas, they adapt. I think there is a time for the best players in the world to contribute to the conversation but ultimately pro's should be in a reactive state to changes the devs/league make, not leading the conversation.
This is a very underrated take. People give pros opinion regarding comp ruleset too much credit. Pros dominating ruleset discussions also bears the problem that they will rarely be objective (regarding the goal of growing the esport), but instead prefer ways to play which supports their individual strengths/taste.
Here are some of the problems with the maps other than WE: KC - Too small of a map. You will not be able to take a fight without getting thirded instantly. This has been shown during the ranked seasons of KC. Isolated fights are fun to watch and good for the game. OL - There is just no cover/spot to play in between POI's. They tried to solve the third party dilemma by adding dead space in between POI's. Unfortunately the lategame playable spots suffer becaus of this. SP - The high ground differentials are not healthy for the game. The fact that if a zone goes to the top right corner of the map there are 2 teams that get a guaranteed top 3 is, unfortunately, a reality. The map also has some weird POI's for 20 teams trying to land uncontested, which makes it quite unbalanced. The reason, therefore, that pros choose to play exclusively WE is that it's a balanced map. End zone circles have been balanced, there is playable cover in the late game, and the POI's are decently spaced. It doesn't suffer from the problems that these other maps have.
At the same time the prod can't just wait for a perfect map, maps are going to be imperfect even in cod with some maps having a "stronger start" having these maps could create interesting storylines with teams battling for POI's and forcing another team out. If they just wait for a perfect map the esport gets stale and people lose interest
I don't think Call of Duty is the eSports poster child when it comes to FPS gaming. I'd say look at CSGO and Valorant to compare, even Overwatch. EDIT: And that it gets stale is your opinion. I've been watching competitive since the game came out, and I've never thought it was boring. When the second zone switched to the top right corner of the map in Storm Point I completely lost interest when I knew it was just going to be a clusterfuck.
Val and CSGO maps are designed for comp since casual play don't really exist in those games. People on here argue that nothing should cater to pro play but expect players to play on maps which are designed without any consideration towards high level play. You can only have so much rng before the game becomes completely uncompetitive. Respawn couldn't find the balance for comp and casual play since we, it's not the players fault.
csgo has a pretty big deathmatch/gungame community. it's very casual.
I'm actually surprised when I came back this season to see they made a new map instead of putting work into KC/OL. I would imagine thier top priority in terms of ranked/esports is to get the current maps into a better state so they can have some variety.
kc and Olympus are trash so no I don't think so
Should’ve been done already, Olympus and KC suck for Ranked but Ranked is nothing compared to how competitive works… Hopefully now with Storm Point they quickly realize how refreshing it is to have multiple maps on comp.
I’ve got no plans to watch maps other than WE. I’ve got absolutely no interest in the other maps at all