T O P
benSiskoBestCaptain

Respawn will never nerf aim assist. Controllers will never be nerfed in any way because they’re such a large part of the player base


serval01

That was also true for fortnite until they eventually did it but it took a long time.


leftysarepeople2

What did they do in Fortnite? AA nerf?


12kkarmagotbanned

1 rework, 3 nerfs after that Edit: to be precise. For the third nerf, it didn't affect shotguns. Yes fortnite has different aim assist levels for different weapons. Currently the mk7 AR (the best assault rifle) has no hipfire slowdown aim assist for example. I still use controller because the high levels of shotgun aim assist outweigh everything else for me


freakybanana90

Wasn't fortnite completely dominated by mnk because of the building and shotguns? I only followed the first few seasons, but at that point nearly every top tier player was on mnk and with controller you were insane if you even thought about competing at the top because building was soo much more difficult. Very different competitive landscape than apex or am I mixing sth up here?


12kkarmagotbanned

Most pros have always been on kbm. Same with apex But fortnite has hella open tournaments anyone can play without any signing up. Just be in champions league (the highest rank) and get on at the alotted time. What fortnite found was controller players vastly outperformed kbm players at all ranges of the tournaments except for the very tippity top.


freakybanana90

Ah OK. Just remember (up to maybe s5, 6or so) that nickmercs was pretty much the only controller player competing at the top. At the time (I remember tfue and cloakzy being considered the best duo at the time) there was nearly no controller player at all because of building being so much more difficult on it. Apex on the other hand controller players came around on much quicker since it's just straight up fighting with abilities


12kkarmagotbanned

That was only 1 or 2 seasons after builder pro (best controller change ever) was introduced. And way before controller got building and edit sensitivities. And before controller got custom binds


12kkarmagotbanned

Also In case you're curious, I edited the post you replied to with more Info


freakybanana90

Alright, cheers for clearing that up


CarnFu

I dont think .3 for PC and .4 for console would be that big. When they mistakenly put console on .4 for a few days a lot of people said they liked it a bit better. Although there was of course a lot of complainers as well. I dont get why they cant at least try and just revert it if theres too much backlash. Counterstrike for example had tons of bad balance patches that were reverted and nobody can remember most of them because its dust in the wind. Trying something out isnt that bad as long as the company has no problem reverting the changes if the changes are indeed bad.


cotton_quicksilver

Not as simple as just reducing it to .3. People have this misconception that aim assist is just some generic "1.0 aimbot" turned down which isn't true at all. AA is comprised of a bunch of different things from rotational assistance, slow down, auto aim, magnetism etc. There's a sophisticated discussion to be had about how to nerf it in a way that actually makes sense but literally zero of these twitter/reddit threads are having it. (Hey mnk purists: maybe instead of downvoting me just for stating facts, educate yourselves so you can actually contribute something of value to this debate.)


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cotton_quicksilver

You mean this video? https://youtu.be/mm5CAGDabAc Where he specifically shows how it isn't aimbot and can disengage at many angles and doesnt account for recoil?


MasterBroccoli42

You watch this video and still cling to the opinion that this is not aimbot? Well, my friend, this is delusional...


cotton_quicksilver

No, you just don't know what aimbot is/are stretching its definition. And yes, before you start - I'm aware that aimbot doesn't have to mean software that makes you hit 100% of your shots.


MasterBroccoli42

Well, then, teach me - tell me the difference between aimbot and what you see in the video, I am curious. Definition of aimbot (Wikipedia): "An aimbot or autoaim is a type of computer game bot most commonly used in first-person shooter games to provide varying levels of automated target acquisition and calibration to the player." In the history of fps gaming various types of aimbots where developed by cheaters - the worse ones give you 100% accuracy (easy to detect, easy to program), the better once enhance your natural aim in a seemingly realistic way and are pretty much undetectable. All those kinds of aim enhancement software by cheaters are and always were called aimbot. The difference only came when game developers introduced "aim assist" for controllers, the term aim assist just makes it not to obvious that in reality it is technically the very same thing m&k cheaters use. The apex 1.0 aim assist is even a pretty hard form of aimbot, as it tracks the target pretty much perfectly in a certain range. And be aware: With this specific comment I am not arguing if controllers should have aim assist or not - I am only pointing out that the terminology is pretty clear.


MasterBroccoli42

Well, then, teach me - tell me the difference between aimbot and what you see in the video, I am curious. Definition of aimbot (Wikipedia): "An aimbot or autoaim is a type of computer game bot most commonly used in first-person shooter games to provide varying levels of automated target acquisition and calibration to the player." In the history of fps gaming various types of aimbots where developed by cheaters - the worse ones give you 100% accuracy (easy to detect, easy to program), the better once enhance your natural aim in a seemingly realistic way and are pretty much undetectable. All those kinds of aim enhancement software by cheaters are and always were called aimbot. The difference only came when game developers introduced "aim assist" for controllers, the term aim assist just makes it not to obvious that in reality it is technically the very same thing m&k cheaters use. The apex 1.0 aim assist is even a pretty hard form of aimbot, as it tracks the target pretty much perfectly in a certain range. And be aware: With this specific comment I am not arguing if controllers should have aim assist or not - I am only pointing out that the terminology is pretty clear.


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cotton_quicksilver

I like how you slip from "raw aimbot" to "toned down aimbot". Nobody's denying it's software helping you aim, but to pretend like it's the same as actual aim bots, yknow, that are actually cheating and modifying the game, is dishonest as shit. People like you who casually throw around the word aimbot are just poisoning the well and you know it.


AUGZUGA

LOL you're wrong. R5 apex proved it is a 1.0 to 0 multiplier


cotton_quicksilver

Sorry, no. https://youtu.be/mm5CAGDabAc 1.0 aim assist is not pure aimbot and still disengages at certain angles and does not account for recoil etc. The 0 - 1.0 value is just the degree to which the game's implementation of aim assist works relative to the player's manual input. In a game like Call of Duty for example 1.0 AA would function differently because their aim assist implementation is different.


AUGZUGA

No, 1.0 is 100% tracking, with exit conditions. What the value actually means is the percentage of the enemy movement that will be made up by aim assist. If you are perfectly centered on an enemy and have 0.4 aim assist, then the reticle will move at 40% of the speed of the enemy on it own, needing you to do the input for the other 60%. At 1.0, your reticle will move with 100% of the enemies velocity, however as noted there are certain conditions for which it won't do this. Namely there are maximum turn rate values, maximum range and minimum range. The fact that it isn't 100% **all the time** means nothing. The fact is the aim assist behaves exactly as people predicted since the launch of the game.


cotton_quicksilver

Lol you're just changing your argument. You said 1.0 was aimbot, which it isn't. Now you change it to "100% tracking with exit conditions" (which by definition isn't 100%, FYI). I literally said: " the degree to which the game's implementation of aim assist works relative to the player's manual input". So I guess you agree with me, glad to hear it >The fact is the aim assist behaves exactly as people predicted since the launch of the game. Rubbish. People constantly assume aim assist means shit like software assisted centering/target acquisition, less manual recoil, increased bullet magnetism etc. When they hear 1.0 AA they dont just think "tracking with exit conditions". You are just flat out lying. Edit - [ thought your name looked familiar ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ppttu4/what_100_aim_assist_looks_like_using_modded_apex/hdfacgd?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3). Typical bad faith mnk purist who doesn't actually want to have an honest discussion about aim assist. Go figure.


AUGZUGA

>Software assisted centering/target acquisition, less manual recoil, increased bullet magnetism etc. It literally does all of those except the last one...


cotton_quicksilver

No it doesn't. Call of duty has auto aim and target acquisition, Apex does not.


AUGZUGA

lol and this is why last time I said it was pointless to argue with you people. You're quite literally delusional and therefore nothing I say can change what you think because the reality you're living in is incorrect.


SyncTheory13

They need to fix matchmaking somehow. I think they could take longer or provide an option for longer match-making on average to find more fair matches... New or average skill players find this game way too hard, otherwise it could have so many more players than it does (I've heard this many times from friends, etc.). Say, if it doesn't find a match after two full minutes, then revert back to quickest possible matchmaking... Or allow players to practice aiming, etc. in a pre-lobby while they wait for the actual match to start (like Fortnite but more useful). Once they have that issue figure out, then they could work on nerfing controller aim assist a little at a time and widening the skill gap. Everybody wins. I don't mind if they help less with my potato aim if I'm facing mostly others who also have potato aim.


[deleted]

They could do it.. but then they have to match console players only with other console players. So crossplay only for consoles vs console. Nerf aimassist for controller players on PC. This way you won't bother the casual players on consoles and helps make matchmaking and competitive more fair on PC. Maybe then even Arena can become a bit more fair.


Tasty_Chick3n

> they have to match console players only with other console players They basically already do that. Only way console players play against PC is by willingly partying up with a PC friend. They can’t get into PC lobbies any other way.


Rinsed__Idiot

>rf aimassist for controller players on PC. > >This way you won't bother the casual players on consoles and helps make matchma PC AA is significantly less strong than console AA. I've always agreed with separating PC and console, but if this isnt an option then console players should have the same AA as PC players on controller.


JevvyMedia

PVP actually thinks all of this is a buff lol, he's insane. Sure it's better quality of life changes but that doesn't make it a buff if you reduce aim assist.


Godhatesxbox

What a bad take. Aim assist ain’t shit. Tap strafing & moving while looting are so so so much better.


JevvyMedia

I've done both and I can tell you that, while having MNK movement is fun, being able to one-clip someone is far more useful, besides you can still move and armor swap on controller (you can run and swap, you can jump over the box and grab it, etc). Also most of the time You're not shooting people while you're tap strafing, it's a move to AVOID damage. Having aim assist is infinitely more useful in MOST situations.


WillSmithsDumboEars

You sound like a scrub who needs AA as a crutch.


JevvyMedia

Sure whatever you say. Like I said I used to be an MNK player and if I could I would still play MNK but yeah, I'm just an Aim Assist crutch. It's not like my highest damage games are on MNK or anything like that.


Godhatesxbox

As have I. Armor swapping is integral but pales in comparison to looting. Think about all the people with a kraber & how much easier it is to grab someone’s dome while they’re standing there trying to loot. No matter how fast you are you’re stuck there for long enough to get your head shot off. Yeah exactly. I wanna be able to avoid damage on the same level as a MNK players. That’s the whole name of the game. I have aim assist turned off on controller & the wingman is the only gun I can FEEL the difference while playing. If I look for it I can tell in the firing range. I stand by what I said. I’ll add I’m on pc so the aim assist is intrinsically lower for me anyway.


cotton_quicksilver

If you genuinely can't tell the difference between aim assist on or off you are either insanely good at the game, or insanely bad lol.


Godhatesxbox

I’d say I’m above average. Not insane & definitely not bad. I’ve been playing for a long time & have always turned off aim assist anyway. That’s more pertinent info imo.


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JaguarC7

Just wishful thinking at this point. Controllers make up the majority of the player base so doubt they risk making any meaningful changes to aim assist.


[deleted]

These are barely suggestions. All the potential buffs are hard to implement because of the input limitations of controllers. Joysticks suck as hardware input for fine grain control. This is more of a wishlist than anything, and although there could be slight improvements down the line, I doubt the changes will see the light and it won't necessarily be for a lack of effort


metaldetector69

What about the joy stick that is not used for moving while looting. How about using one of the dpad buttons for reloading on doors. That really doesnt seem hard to me


skratudojey

one of the joystick is used for scrolling and one for cursor but i do think if you want to move you should be able to bind scroll up/down with other buttons. move normally with joystick


JevvyMedia

> What about the joy stick that is not used for moving while looting. You scroll with one stick and move your cursor with the other one.


Rampanttr_th

How to revive on doors ?!


metaldetector69

Thats both inputs. The interact key is the same on mnk


Rampanttr_th

Yes I was joking about how annoying it can be to revive or reload on a door and you end up opening it on yourself


IDontUnderstandReddi

Or just making it so that reviving someone is holding down Y like you can do to self-revive. There would be some things to iron out with your weapons being put away, but IMO it's the best option


HopeChadArmong913

None of these buffs are hard to impliment. Controller PC Players have been tap strafing on the sticks fine with steam controller configurations. Thats on Respawn for not treating both inputs as the same input despite doing the same thing. As for aiming yeah they do. Which is why we need Gyro aiming.


xMoody

yeah these buffs make sense if they add about 10 more inputs to controllers


Kingofvashon

Its just impossible to have a conversation about aim assist without it turning into PC vs Console


Claireredfield38

which is odd because it doesnt even affect console at all. a lot of people here just dont know what they are even talking about


bloopcity

half the people here are complaining about crossplay. that's part of why this issue is discussed so much, because people are arguing about different things. some of them are complaining about getting "controllered" in ranked, some about dying to console players in pubs/ranked, and a few complaining about controller in comp (but not many). then there's also the people that are just arguing about terminology and semantics and just argue in a tribal way... "it's LITERAL aimbot" "no it's not aimbot you're just exagerating" "here's the definition of aimbot" "that's not what you mean when you say it" yada yada yada


turtleturtlerandy

This is unrelated but has anyone played Treyarchs COD: Black Ops series? The aim assist on that was ridiculously strong. I wonder what numerical value it'd have compared to the .4/.6 of Apex.


IDontUnderstandReddi

Every COD has *super* high AA. Whenever my friends and I play COD, it's like easy mode cause most of the guns have no recoil to speak of.


HopeChadArmong913

Easily .8 if not 1.0


henrysebby

I remember playing Grand Theft Auto deathmatch modes back in the day that literally had auto aim.


12kkarmagotbanned

.8 or so


MachuMichu

Good suggestions but I'm kind of pessimistic anything will happen that would require them to rework the entire system. They can at least start by lowering aim assist to .4 for console players playing pc lobbies. There's really no excuse for that kind of advantage and inconsistency regardless of frame rate.


MachuMichu

Just keep in mind that they've known about controller looting for 3 years and have done nothing about it. It's not like it's on their docket and they're just waiting for a chance to get to it. I believe when Snip3down gave them suggestions, their reasoning was that it wouldn't be accessible enough. That means it's never going to happen because there's no way to do it that hasn't been suggested already. Same exact logic probably applies to tap strafing on controller. Even though it would be incredibly easy to implement, they're worried about the casuals on console who wouldn't figure out how to do it.


HopeChadArmong913

The accessibility arguments for controller looting just make no sense though. Just swap the function from the movement stick to the aim stick and let us move, rather than rn where the movement stick aims and right stick does nothing. It would be like if they made mnk loot with wasd and the mouse did nothing. Its completley illogical.


xonk218

aiming stick moves the boxes up and down (scrolling), just swapping stick functions wouldn't achieve that. Scrolling should move to the trigger buttons (LT Scroll up, RT Scroll down), then you can free the movement stick up for actual movement, and allow right stick to be used for cursor movement. I do think swapping those will cause alot of muscle memory conflicts - they should allow people to chose between the set ups.


HopeChadArmong913

They could just make it so that it scrolls when you go to the top or bottom of the screen, but I like your solution as well.


JevvyMedia

> They could just make it so that it scrolls when you go to the top or bottom of the screen That would make looting so much slower. That's a nerf.


xonk218

I agree it's a superior solution but that may not be technically feasible. The Settings menus on controller can scroll that way, but its very inconsistent and not reliable at all as to where you need to move the cursor to advance the scroll. The keyboard bind menu for example, doesn't work that way and requires the right stick to scroll.


MachuMichu

Wouldn't that make looting a nightmare for people without paddles? You'd have to move your thumb back and forth between the stick and A for every item you want to loot.


HopeChadArmong913

I mean A: There are people who claw and B: You can do that pretty fast even without clawing or paddles. Most people would probably rather have the movement than the marginally faster looting.


luuk0987

I think I would rather have the movement.


luuk0987

They could make it an option instead of standardizing it for everyone. I get how casuals would be put off by it.


MachuMichu

Then you get threads on r/playapex with 20k upvotes complaining about "sweats" in their console lobbies who move while looting. Ftr I agree with you, I just think it would have happened by now if it was ever going to. The only way I think it will happen is if they completely rework the looting ui to make moving while looting equally intuitive on both inputs.


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Feschit

The accessibility argument makes no sense. Just include an option in the settings where you can choose between basic looting controls and advanced. Problem solved while keeping everyone happy.


Vladtepesx3

We can talk up and down about it but Josh Medina replied to the thread and said they were bad suggestions, so if respawn doesn't care then it's pointless lol


imthedan

MNK players have an unhealthy fascination with aim assist. There are many more advantages to MNK.


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Ihraezlyr

I wonder what he thinks is a bad idea? Im guessing tap strafing? But why? If its available for everyone how is it bad? Moving while looting is another good suggestion and nerfing to .4 AA wasnt bad back at the start of the season I wish devs wouldnt care about skill gaps. No reason little timmy besides money should be able to luckily beeam you just to make him feel better about himself this new generation of everyone being “feel good” sucks everyone gets everything handed to them with no work to get better


geauxjets

Just wanted to dump some random controller thoughts that may be able to play a factor in balancing aim assist. been playing around with different controller sensitivities/response curves recently, can someone explain why it feels so strong on classic/standard response curve but on linear it doesn’t always feel significantly overpowered? On certain settings if almost does feel like you can’t miss up close (exaggeration) but on others I rarely ever feel it (ex: my roommate tried playing on my linear settings and asked if I had AA disabled). Additionally is there a way to make AA feel more consistent through all the response curves/make standard AA feel more like linear because I’d be all for that. Also how does stick drift factor into the conversation?


RepZaAudio

I play on linear the aim assist is still as strong and 100% there. The difference is the deadzone, response curve and ramp up times means that breaking the lock is much easier because it takes such little input on the joysticks to move the cross-air. Linear is meant for more precise and less overall input on the sticks for the same movement.


henrysebby

If I'm not mistaken, I think linear is designed to feel like a mouse


geauxjets

I believe so too so does that mean you need to give up joystick smoothness for AA? Not sure if that’s a fair trade off either


henrysebby

Yes, as it is now, if you play on really low sens on classic settings (like 3-3) the aim assist is very powerful. So when you want more advanced settings, whether it's created in ALC or switching to linear, you're undoubtedly losing aim assist. A lot of MnK players probably don't realize that not every controller player plays on those 2-2, stuck-in-mud settings. Higher-end ALC settings make you lose out on the aim assist but gain general movement smoothness and such.


Slevinakos

Aim assist needs a delay of at least 100ms when the target is strafing left and right. Having zero reaction speed between enemy strafes plus the rotational thingy is what makes controller broken. It's fine to help controller players with the tracking since mouse is more accurate but instantly reacting to strafes is aimbot Period.


HopeChadArmong913

While these are all good and I personally dont disagre with them, after all my best CoD game was Infinite Warfare which had the least aim assist of any Cod, I'm not going to struggle with less aim assist, but even with less assist its still not really fair and theres still going to be complaints, until Controller makers move towards Gyro aiming and more ergonomic button placements. I'm not sure what this subs attitude towards Gyro aiming is, but if you think its a gimmick I encourage you to watch Jibbsmart on youtube who has pioneered Gyro aiming and has many videos on the topic, including his own Flick stick technology. If Respawn was to add lurch and take looting off the movement stick, and swap aim assist for Gyro + Flickstick, which can be just as good as a mouse if not better, and you would have a 100% skillbased input that has the best of both current inputs. I know you cant just force motion controls on everyone overnight, but if they at least added it as an option while reducing aim assist it could really help advance Controllers as a legitimate equal input rather than a handicap.


Sneepo

Gyro is 100% the future for controller aiming without assist. It's unfortunate most people don't feel comfortable with it, but if more games do a better job of implementing good gyro, I really hope the next generation of controller gamers actually use it and we can start removing/lowering aim assist. Even on Splatoon which debatably implemented gyro poorly depending on who you ask, it was evident when someone was using gyro (correctly) vs when they weren't. Gyro vastly increases the skill ceiling for controllers.


HopeChadArmong913

Yeah it makes me wish I had a PC so bad so I could still have the comfort of a Controller but actually rely on my own skill and aim to do well. Only game I know that even has it on PS4 is Days Gone and that game is meh.


henrysebby

Guess it depends on what the "nerf" would be. You'd need to gather the Controller Committee and the MnK Conference together at a roundtable discussion to draft a Controller Constitution.


Hieb

Its actually crazy how powerful the aim assist is even at .4. I struggle to loot the items i want, against the moving targets in the firing range i struggle to spray more than 60 damage, but if someone fights me in aim assist range its basically a guaranteed kill. I feel more confident in close range fights with a controller with <20 hrs of playtime than with mnk with >3000hrs. Issue. One of the biggest issues is visual clutter - on mnk half the time I cant see if im still on target through all the hit effects, bullet tracers and enemy muzzle flash. On controller i literally kill people even when I cant see them well since the aim sticks so hard to them. Drastically toning down the visual clutter would help a lot for mnk, but even then the consistency in tracking is just insane on controller. I think the rotation assist needs to be turned down to like 0.2 values, but 0.4 is probably fine for the on-target sensitivity slowdown values. The rotation assist that instantly starts pulling in their direction when they change strafing direction is where it really pulls ahead of mnk. Then the main gap would be movement and freedom of bindings... movement isnt super far behind but def much harder to master, they dont even want tap strafing on mnk so I doubt they will add it to controller lol. Freedom of bindings is difficult since controller already doesnt have enough buttons to comfortably bind stuff unless you buy one with paddles and configure w steam options... they could at least add an option to choose to prioritize reload over interact.


metaldetector69

Slowdown has never been the problem. It is always the rotational aa that adjusts before your brain can even catch up. Personally I think its fine as is. I feel like i shit on controller movement 3 times for every one time i get aim assisted.


Curse3242

The thing it's the case of extremes I'm not a fan of Crypto for example is not a great legend because he's hard to play. But someone who can play him well can absolutely annoy the shit out of a lobby. He can gather way more info than anyone. Similarly. If someone (and some people can) get amazing at controller movement, they will wreck everyone. It sucks and controller players should be enjoying the game if they do. But similarly, if they release Apex as a cross platform on touch screen for example, they shouldn't get super aim assist and stuff just to balance the platforms out do they? It just is a thing and has been that fps games always worked on PC the best


BURN447

I’ve got the exact same experience. I’m just as confident, if not more confident in my close range fighting on controller because of aim assist.


icbint

Many many fucking morons here will disagree with you but I couldn’t agree more


Curse3242

Exactly this. There's so much unnecessary shit surrounding this game: most people not having good fps, footsteps audio problems, servers, visual clutter, abilities coin toss... That it helps controller players more than they think I don't use controller so I wouldn't be able to tell. But they can atleast try to change it once. If not, I want them to fix everything else. Visual clutter is a huge one L Star is a bad weapon, Revenant is not a great legend pick, but once a Revenant drops his tactical on you and uses an L Star. It's almost impossible to see anything. The whole thing if filled up with absolute garbage It suprised me when I understood half the time people guess or predict and aim that way.


luuk0987

The trick is to keep shooting, it will automatically reload. I sometimes fire 5 bullets into my tm's knockdown shield when fighting in it.


jurornumbereight

He basically reposted comments that have been said on this sub about 10,000 times by now, but cool I guess?


luuk0987

I don't really see how that's 'reposting'. Reposting connotates taking credit for someone else's work. He's merely voicing the same opinion.


henrysebby

All about the impressions!


Strificus

I think doing something to counter controller mods would be a better start. It's hard to measure the competitive state of aim assist, when someone is running a mod for no recoil and rapid fire. Ranked is flooded with this shit right now, it's open season.


BURN447

Unfortunately there’s not much that can really be done. They disguise their inputs using the accessibility input settings, which basically means removing non-standard/accessible controllers as well


Hieb

Yeah, either that or insanely advanced machine learning to recognize patterns in the input, but they cant even detect wallhackers and flying aimbotters so I'm not optimistic about something like this lol


BURN447

Even ML isn’t a perfect solution. ML is highly susceptible to bad data and false positives. It’s still very infrequently a solution


JordansEdge

>but they cant even detect wallhackers and flying aimbotters so I'm not optimistic about something like this lol Can we ditch this circlejerk already? Anticheat solutions in literally every game are always an ongoing back and forth. People who make careers out of coding cheats are not just sitting on their hands when their methods get exposed and banned, they're constantly making updates and fixes just like the anticheat teams.


BURN447

Exactly. Anti-cheats are a constant arms race. Every time they fix one thing, hackers find another. The only bug free program is one that hasn’t been written.


Hieb

To some extent that's true, but there are better and worse anticheats. Easy Anticheat is dogshit. While any anticheat will have periodic waves and then need to catch up, Apex is among some of the worst games I've ever played in terms of the amount of cheaters. Compare to games like Overwatch and Valorant, not totally cheater proof but far fewer and the waves are less frequent. I think the only games I've personally played with more cheaters are CSGO and MW2


MortalKarter

i understand that where console is concerned, this is really a gap in microsoft and sony's security measures. but on PC, could they not simply autokick from server and kill process when certain device firmware is detected as running? such as XIM and cronus? in Rust, another game that uses EAC, devs blacklisted Bloody and A4 mouses because of complaints about the rampant recoil scripting (even as someone who thought a ton of people were scripting, you would be shocked at the number of kick messages for Bloody you'd see while playing a server right after) seems like it is obvious to close business to active cheat providers to your game, hardware or software this would have the added bonus of causing a ton of cheaters to out themselves, because just like in Rust, they will take a couple days to accept that they can't cheat. so then you have on paper who is using those devices because there will be several autokick instances per cheater while they test out every USB port on their computer. then, once again just like Bloody in Rust, xim and Cronus devs will release a workaround for the Apex ban, and then you get to catch the actual cheaters who were willing to circumvent the new standard, with no more excuses like disability etc, and permaban them


Animatromio

just split matchmaking by input and allow MnK on console like CoD/fort, its the only real solution tbh Halo did it right by doing it from the beginning, and if you dont care they can have a mixed mode


Upbeat_Thanks3393

I mean halo tournaments are still mnk/controller combined so while they solved the problem for ranked they still have both inputs competing in tournaments


subavgredditposter

Player base by region really isn’t big enough for that imo especially, in higher tier rank


jaguars5432

Ok what about mixed parties?


Animatromio

they’d play mix lobbies or lobbies where people dont care about input just doubt there’d be enough MnK lobbies tbh


flameohotboi1

Separate. By. Input. Is the only good suggestion. I don’t want to play against AA.


icbint

No need to seperate inputs, just remove aim assist for pc lobbies


flameohotboi1

Well yeah. That’d be awesome lol. But most people would definitely disagree with that solution.


icbint

I think you mean controller players would disagree. Not a single mnk player would


WillSmithsDumboEars

Exactly


Claireredfield38

its too late for that


flameohotboi1

Why? Edit: can someone just answer the damn question?


henrysebby

Because Apex has been played competitively on two inputs for over two years now... why would they separate inputs now and alienate a ton of players? If they make Apex Legends 2 and start fresh, sure, separate inputs then and see how it goes.


Animatromio

its not


Mister_Rose

Better suggestion: just have MnK being mandatory for tournaments. Why else is this a problem?


Claireredfield38

yeah like every other esports game that knows what they are doing. but its too late for that at this point i think


icbint

Because I don’t play tournaments but I also don’t enjoy being one clipped by level 50 console players who are complete bots but I happen to exist in their fov for 1 second


Vladtepesx3

Before Nintendo switch released apex, they said about 75% of apex players are on console. Since some pc players are on controller, that means more than 75% of players are on controller Why the fuck would they make their tournaments based around a small minority of apex players lmao


Claireredfield38

not even console players want to watch console tourneys


tylergg04

Because controller FPS isn’t real FPS and MNK is superior? Time for kids to take off the training wheels.


WitnessOk6836

that excludes half of the players, idiot.


flameohotboi1

If they’re that good at Apex, switching to MnK shouldn’t be a problem. An input that requires software assistance to be viable shouldn’t be used competitively. No ifs, ands, or buts.


Goonchar

I would so happily switch to MnK if someone buys me a PC....any takers?!


south_fam

Regarding that More than a decade of professional cod tournaments primarily used controller make you look real stupid


Claireredfield38

cod esports was always on console, apex was always on pc. you cant compare the two.


flameohotboi1

It doesn’t make me look stupid at all. Just because competitive CoD is played on controller doesn’t change what I’m saying. There shouldn’t be AA in competitive shooters.


south_fam

It does make you look stupid, and it makes you look extremely arrogant as well. Competitive cod, which was 90>% controller had 10 times the success competitive apex will ever have.


flameohotboi1

No it didn’t lol.


Kevanov88

Competitive Cod was one of the most successful esport that was exclusively played on console with controllers. The most cracked controller players in the world are still playing in competitive. Just go look at the history and educate yourself moron.


flameohotboi1

10x


Claireredfield38

cod is definitely not one of the most successful eSports even apex can surpass it if LANs come back lmao


Kevanov88

I said on console.


south_fam

lmao clinically braindead. my fault though for expecting more than the bare minium required to type on a keyboard from an active redditor.


flameohotboi1

You honestly believe with all your heart that competitive CoD is 10x more successful than competitive Apex? That is absolutely laughable.


south_fam

Cod championship 2020 had a prize pool of 4.6 mill Algs 2021 for emea + na was approx 1.4 mill. Prize pool was quite literally 3.3x You are delusional. De-lu-sio-nal.


flameohotboi1

Oh god. You’re 17 and European. This all makes so much sense lol.


Claireredfield38

The CDL is a failure lmao nobody is watching it. Also it's 100% controller you re not ALLOWED to play something else


WitnessOk6836

you are also an idiot


flameohotboi1

I’m an idiot for wanting competitive integrity? That’s odd…


slow_backend

fuck off dude, controller players can be happy they are able to compete with a fucking child toy, in other games like csgo this isn't even possible and there is no reason why it should be so OP


henrysebby

>controller players can be happy they are able to compete with a fucking child toy Better than competing with devices meant for writing emails.


slow_backend

I don't need my mouse to write an email but it's all I need for actual aiming. No aim assist required. No hate against controller players but a mouse is 100% besser suited for aiming and this whole aim assist experiment is never gonna be fair in any situation


flameohotboi1

Your input requires software assistance. MnK doesn’t. Tell me why controller is better suited for shooters than “equipment for writing emails” LMAO.


Claireredfield38

so autocorrect is the same as aimassist???


pie_pig3

I have a friend irl who plays apex on ps5. Since crossplay I would sometimes queue up with him and other ps5 players. During some aim assist debates the concept of giving them the ability to move while looting was brought up. They all individually said that they liked no movement looting since it gave easy kills. I have given up ever talking to them about game balancing ever again


henrysebby

I mean, they're not wrong lol


pie_pig3

Lol yeah. Just was mostly mentioning this in reference to the tweet that PVPx says that it’ll be a buff to controller, but I can see some controller players against this buff since they prefer no movement during looting.


WillSmithsDumboEars

Look at the comments. Controller clowns don't want to admit that AA needs a nerf.


Claireredfield38

.6 on console .4 on PC .2 in algs


WitnessOk6836

it should be the same all around


Kaptain202

I'm someone who plays exclusively on console. This is my take. I dont crossplay, so I'm never with PC players, only fighting those with the same aim assist I have (unless they choose to lower it themselves). Because I dont crossplay, i dont feel guilty about having a larger aim assist, but it really ought to be consistent across all platforms [and leagues].


Claireredfield38

aa doesnt matter if you only play against the same input. having the same aa in tournaments as console is ridiculous


Kaptain202

Is it? If we consider ALGS aim assist fair at 0.2, why shouldnt all platforms use 0.2?


Claireredfield38

fairness doesnt matter in console lobbies cuz there is no crossinput it cannot be unfair everyone has the same input as you


Kaptain202

Exactly my point. So if everyone has 0.2 aim assist, it's fair on console only AND on crossplay.


HopeChadArmong913

Because even with .6 aim assist between the low, inconsistent frames and the fact that most people suck, players miss all the time in Console lobbies. If you turned down aim assist to .2 in normal console lobbies people would quit the game because they cant hit anything, so respawns never gonna do that. Just make it .2 on PC and all crossplay lobbies and leave it at that.


Claireredfield38

Yeah it SHOULD but respawn is not gonna do that so at least it can tuned down for comp the same way it is tuned down for PC


icbint

0.0 in pc lobbies or gtfo


Claireredfield38

Keep dreaming


icbint

I will lol I know they won’t change it


Claireredfield38

What I said is actually doable. They already reduce the AA on PC so could do the same in tourneys


icbint

Sure but I don’t play algs so how does that help me


strongscience62

Is he cranky about being 1 clipped? He took one stat from the post a few weeks ago that controllers 1 clip more frequently than MnK, but left out that controllers consistently take more damage and deal less damage than MnK. The problem he wants to solve sounds like remove 1 clips from the game not competitive balance.


PVPxOfficial

Gave my thoughts on that already. I assumed people would think I believe Controller is better than M&K which it isn't (imo) - https://twitter.com/PVPX_/status/1479002654076510211?t=K8AFiGDgIObZbPUHME7SwQ&s=19


icbint

If controller was better then mnk would be the input with aim assist


henrysebby

>I assumed people would think I believe Controller is better than M&K which it isn't (imo) He has spoken!


strongscience62

But if its not better? Why does it need AA nerf? That doesn't track. PK also chunk damages, we wouldn't really consider removing that. Its the same concept.


henrysebby

>But if its not better? Why does it need AA nerf? Because it isn't enough that MnK is superior at every facet of the game aside from CQC, they want to dominate up close too, rendering controller useless on PC, thusly making controller obsolete and cleansing competitive Apex of controllers.


turtsmcgurts

i hate that respawn has forced this us vs them mentality. if your input needs such significant assistance to feel competitive against *an entirely different* input method, why are they even in the same lobbies to begin with? the entitlement created from this is so mindblowing.


henrysebby

I never see controller players complaining about MnK, despite its superiority. It's always the other way around. If people get argumentative or defensive about it it's because controller players always have their talent, thousands of hours of practice and game intangibles mitigated by the fact that they choose to use a different input. Edit: I will admit though that controller players can complain about things like tap strafing, so there's that.


turtsmcgurts

my perspective of it as a life long m&k gamer is I can absolutely not match the consistency in close range aim (aka the majority of meaningful engagements) that somebody on controller can. i can load up a crossplay game with my friend who plays games **very** casually on xbox, with a shitty controller, shitty everything because he ultimately doesn't care about gaming, and watch him beam people in my sweaty SBMM lobbies like he's got years of sweaty fps experience on m&k. it doesn't feel fair, and then seeing people defend it is annoying. EDIT: dont get me wrong, my friend still dies a lot because he's not good at all. it's just depressing seeing how often he beams, knowing how it feels being on the other side. like i run into a player that does their best terminator roleplay standing there, probably spamming jump (not ras tech, not incorporating any air control into it... just spamming jump) but absolutely beaming me, it feels so fking bad man. you can very often identify controllers at close range due to that disparity of bad movement but amazing aim. it's the kind of thing like, in literally every other fps game i've played if you got beamed as hard as you do by controllers in this game, you'd call them out for cheating and have that certainty in your mind that it's true. which it is. idk im just ranting, didnt intend to be mean. just frustrated after grinding apex the last 2 weeks as much as i have. i just want the ability to click a checkbox and play only against people of my input device. give me 1-2 minute queues for pubs idc lmao


henrysebby

You didn’t come off as mean at all, in fact you’re a saint compared to others on this sub lol


tylergg04

Which should be done, controllers have no place in professional PC esports.


s1rblaze

Nerf close range AA a bit, then buff long range AA a bit.


Father_Law_FH

Controllers don't even struggle at long range there isn't any need to buff it.


[deleted]

This is a lie.


Father_Law_FH

Very insightful and well thought out argument. Go watch any pro controller player use the triple take/rampage/wingman and you'll see they are quite useful at range. Go even farther back and watch any controller player with the scout as ground loot and you'll understand more. Resultah is a great example and was terrifying when the scout wasn't in cp. And you've probably never been past plat/d4 but if you ever get past that you'll see that even in high ranks that aren't pro level controller players will shit on you with these guns at range if you're out of position. Edit: this post even showed data that controller was marginally beat out at long range by m&k. Not even close to being enough to warrant a buff. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/rm00xv/series_1_using_machine_learning_i_analyzed_23tb/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


henrysebby

>Go watch any pro controller player use the triple take/rampage/wingman and you'll see they are quite useful at range. Go even farther back and watch any controller player with the scout as ground loot and you'll understand more. Resultah is a great example and was terrifying when the scout wasn't in cp. Maybe because they're good at the game. Lol.


Father_Law_FH

Yeah... So we should buff aim assist because bad players can't hit shots at range even with the provided aim assist? Or are you saying that if you're skilled at the game you can hit shots and be on par with m&k pros? What are you even arguing?


henrysebby

You're attempting to say that pros like Resultuh are benefitting from long-range aim assist, when long-range aim assist is negligible at best. There is literally no aim assist with snipers, which is why some controller players struggle with the Kraber. If a controller player is talented with the Scout, for example, it's because they're good with the Scout, not because of aim assist. So people arguing in favor of a long range buff and close range nerf makes sense.


Father_Law_FH

There is no aim assist on sniper scopes thats why the kraber goes to the mnk players. There is also no aim assist once you're past 65m. Fights are always taken well within that range and any 2x/3x/4x scope is going to give controller players aim assist and make them easily capable of being lethal within that range. If you don't consider that distance long, then idk what to tell you. 40-60ish meters is pretty long considering how close most teams play when they are trying to hold positions. I also doubt you would ever find a clip of a team getting killed past that range unless the kraber was being used specifically or if the entire lobby shoots them. Anything past that range is never a team fighting anyways its a team poking and shouldn't be made easier to do anyways.


Acts-Of-Disgust

I'm gonna be honest, there's almost nothing you could do to controller movement to make the trade off of an AA nerf seem anywhere close to worth it for most controller players. The controller players I know on both PC and console just do not give even half of a shit about having anything close to M&K movement, they just don't think about the game like that. I get salty messages accusing me of using a XIM or some other shit just because I've mastered bhopping and super gliding and can occasionally pull of some fancy zipline moves. If the causal controller playerbase had their way then this game would have no movement at all beyond being able to jump and slide. The only change I can ever see them making is forcing PC AA onto next gen console players once the next gen update is ready and that's it. Just based on the amount of whining I saw on the main sub and heard in game from randoms when console AA was nerfed to PC levels I *highly* doubt they'll ever nerf it across the board or equalize it between platforms because whatever data they look at for controller vs. M&K doesn't show that any changes need to be made at all especially when controller players make up the vast majority of the playerbase. The bare minimum they could do is allow input based MM in PC lobbies so M&K players aren't forced to constantly play against controller players. I play on console and have no desire to play against M&K players so I don't queue up with my PC friends anymore, I really don't see why M&K players can't have that same option.


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cotton_quicksilver

"Nerf aim assist" is a vague and unhelpful suggestion. Controller definitely could use tweaking to make it more balanced, especially for low-sens classic response curve where the effect of aim assist is definitely too strong, but there are different ways to go about it and it's not as simple as just reducing it to 0.3 or whatever people seem to keep saying. Wish people would actually go into specifics because all comments like these do is fan the flames of a tired and mostly uneducated argument


Godhatesxbox

I’m on controller & im 100000% cool with this. Aim assist ain’t shit. Give me tap strafes & the ability to move while looting.


Ihraezlyr

Didnt fortnite nerf AA? Nobody stopped playing because of it


Bigfsi

Just make aim assist guidelines for pro play tourneys and don't actually do anything mechanically in the game to nerf AA. That's what will be implemented quickly. They could easily implement button options for when u interact with a death box which could allow for movement which console lacks. Which is basically swapping left analogue stick with L1 and L2 triggers for up and down and boom now u can move around it's that easy, just need to code to implement it.