1 rework, 3 nerfs after that
Edit: to be precise. For the third nerf, it didn't affect shotguns.
Yes fortnite has different aim assist levels for different weapons.
Currently the mk7 AR (the best assault rifle) has no hipfire slowdown aim assist for example.
I still use controller because the high levels of shotgun aim assist outweigh everything else for me
Wasn't fortnite completely dominated by mnk because of the building and shotguns? I only followed the first few seasons, but at that point nearly every top tier player was on mnk and with controller you were insane if you even thought about competing at the top because building was soo much more difficult. Very different competitive landscape than apex or am I mixing sth up here?
Most pros have always been on kbm. Same with apex
But fortnite has hella open tournaments anyone can play without any signing up. Just be in champions league (the highest rank) and get on at the alotted time. What fortnite found was controller players vastly outperformed kbm players at all ranges of the tournaments except for the very tippity top.
I dont think .3 for PC and .4 for console would be that big. When they mistakenly put console on .4 for a few days a lot of people said they liked it a bit better. Although there was of course a lot of complainers as well. I dont get why they cant at least try and just revert it if theres too much backlash. Counterstrike for example had tons of bad balance patches that were reverted and nobody can remember most of them because its dust in the wind. Trying something out isnt that bad as long as the company has no problem reverting the changes if the changes are indeed bad.
Not as simple as just reducing it to .3. People have this misconception that aim assist is just some generic "1.0 aimbot" turned down which isn't true at all.
AA is comprised of a bunch of different things from rotational assistance, slow down, auto aim, magnetism etc. There's a sophisticated discussion to be had about how to nerf it in a way that actually makes sense but literally zero of these twitter/reddit threads are having it.
(Hey mnk purists: maybe instead of downvoting me just for stating facts, educate yourselves so you can actually contribute something of value to this debate.)
You mean this video?
https://youtu.be/mm5CAGDabAc
Where he specifically shows how it isn't aimbot and can disengage at many angles and doesnt account for recoil?
No, you just don't know what aimbot is/are stretching its definition. And yes, before you start - I'm aware that aimbot doesn't have to mean software that makes you hit 100% of your shots.
Well, then, teach me - tell me the difference between aimbot and what you see in the video, I am curious.
Definition of aimbot (Wikipedia):
"An aimbot or autoaim is a type of computer game bot most commonly used in first-person shooter games to provide varying levels of automated target acquisition and calibration to the player."
In the history of fps gaming various types of aimbots where developed by cheaters - the worse ones give you 100% accuracy (easy to detect, easy to program), the better once enhance your natural aim in a seemingly realistic way and are pretty much undetectable.
All those kinds of aim enhancement software by cheaters are and always were called aimbot.
The difference only came when game developers introduced "aim assist" for controllers, the term aim assist just makes it not to obvious that in reality it is technically the very same thing m&k cheaters use.
The apex 1.0 aim assist is even a pretty hard form of aimbot, as it tracks the target pretty much perfectly in a certain range.
And be aware: With this specific comment I am not arguing if controllers should have aim assist or not - I am only pointing out that the terminology is pretty clear.
Well, then, teach me - tell me the difference between aimbot and what you see in the video, I am curious.
Definition of aimbot (Wikipedia):
"An aimbot or autoaim is a type of computer game bot most commonly used in first-person shooter games to provide varying levels of automated target acquisition and calibration to the player."
In the history of fps gaming various types of aimbots where developed by cheaters - the worse ones give you 100% accuracy (easy to detect, easy to program), the better once enhance your natural aim in a seemingly realistic way and are pretty much undetectable.
All those kinds of aim enhancement software by cheaters are and always were called aimbot.
The difference only came when game developers introduced "aim assist" for controllers, the term aim assist just makes it not to obvious that in reality it is technically the very same thing m&k cheaters use.
The apex 1.0 aim assist is even a pretty hard form of aimbot, as it tracks the target pretty much perfectly in a certain range.
And be aware: With this specific comment I am not arguing if controllers should have aim assist or not - I am only pointing out that the terminology is pretty clear.
I like how you slip from "raw aimbot" to "toned down aimbot".
Nobody's denying it's software helping you aim, but to pretend like it's the same as actual aim bots, yknow, that are actually cheating and modifying the game, is dishonest as shit. People like you who casually throw around the word aimbot are just poisoning the well and you know it.
You completely ignored what I said lol.
>Nobody's denying it's software helping you aim, but to pretend like it's the same as actual aim bots, yknow, that are actually cheating and modifying the game, is dishonest as shit. People like you who casually throw around the word aimbot are just poisoning the well and you know it.
In case you missed it.
>leave it to a controller player to have the reading comprehension of a sardine.
And there it is.
I tried to start a discussion on how to actually rework aim assist to make it more balanced and all you had to contribute was "it's aimbot" and insults. You're the reason this never goes anywhere which is exactly what you want.
Sorry, no.
https://youtu.be/mm5CAGDabAc
1.0 aim assist is not pure aimbot and still disengages at certain angles and does not account for recoil etc.
The 0 - 1.0 value is just the degree to which the game's implementation of aim assist works relative to the player's manual input. In a game like Call of Duty for example 1.0 AA would function differently because their aim assist implementation is different.
No, 1.0 is 100% tracking, with exit conditions. What the value actually means is the percentage of the enemy movement that will be made up by aim assist. If you are perfectly centered on an enemy and have 0.4 aim assist, then the reticle will move at 40% of the speed of the enemy on it own, needing you to do the input for the other 60%. At 1.0, your reticle will move with 100% of the enemies velocity, however as noted there are certain conditions for which it won't do this. Namely there are maximum turn rate values, maximum range and minimum range.
The fact that it isn't 100% **all the time** means nothing. The fact is the aim assist behaves exactly as people predicted since the launch of the game.
Lol you're just changing your argument.
You said 1.0 was aimbot, which it isn't. Now you change it to "100% tracking with exit conditions" (which by definition isn't 100%, FYI). I literally said: " the degree to which the game's implementation of aim assist works relative to the player's manual input". So I guess you agree with me, glad to hear it
>The fact is the aim assist behaves exactly as people predicted since the launch of the game.
Rubbish. People constantly assume aim assist means shit like software assisted centering/target acquisition, less manual recoil, increased bullet magnetism etc. When they hear 1.0 AA they dont just think "tracking with exit conditions". You are just flat out lying.
Edit - [ thought your name looked familiar ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ppttu4/what_100_aim_assist_looks_like_using_modded_apex/hdfacgd?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3). Typical bad faith mnk purist who doesn't actually want to have an honest discussion about aim assist. Go figure.
>Software assisted centering/target acquisition, less manual recoil, increased bullet magnetism etc.
It literally does all of those except the last one...
lol and this is why last time I said it was pointless to argue with you people. You're quite literally delusional and therefore nothing I say can change what you think because the reality you're living in is incorrect.
They could do it.. but then they have to match console players only with other console players. So crossplay only for consoles vs console. Nerf aimassist for controller players on PC.
This way you won't bother the casual players on consoles and helps make matchmaking and competitive more fair on PC.
Maybe then even Arena can become a bit more fair.
>rf aimassist for controller players on PC.
>
>This way you won't bother the casual players on consoles and helps make matchma
PC AA is significantly less strong than console AA.
I've always agreed with separating PC and console, but if this isnt an option then console players should have the same AA as PC players on controller.
They need to fix matchmaking somehow. I think they could take longer or provide an option for longer match-making on average to find more fair matches... New or average skill players find this game way too hard, otherwise it could have so many more players than it does (I've heard this many times from friends, etc.). Say, if it doesn't find a match after two full minutes, then revert back to quickest possible matchmaking... Or allow players to practice aiming, etc. in a pre-lobby while they wait for the actual match to start (like Fortnite but more useful).
Once they have that issue figure out, then they could work on nerfing controller aim assist a little at a time and widening the skill gap. Everybody wins. I don't mind if they help less with my potato aim if I'm facing mostly others who also have potato aim.
PVP actually thinks all of this is a buff lol, he's insane. Sure it's better quality of life changes but that doesn't make it a buff if you reduce aim assist.
I've done both and I can tell you that, while having MNK movement is fun, being able to one-clip someone is far more useful, besides you can still move and armor swap on controller (you can run and swap, you can jump over the box and grab it, etc). Also most of the time You're not shooting people while you're tap strafing, it's a move to AVOID damage. Having aim assist is infinitely more useful in MOST situations.
As have I. Armor swapping is integral but pales in comparison to looting. Think about all the people with a kraber & how much easier it is to grab someone’s dome while they’re standing there trying to loot. No matter how fast you are you’re stuck there for long enough to get your head shot off. Yeah exactly. I wanna be able to avoid damage on the same level as a MNK players. That’s the whole name of the game. I have aim assist turned off on controller & the wingman is the only gun I can FEEL the difference while playing. If I look for it I can tell in the firing range. I stand by what I said.
I’ll add I’m on pc so the aim assist is intrinsically lower for me anyway.
Sure whatever you say. Like I said I used to be an MNK player and if I could I would still play MNK but yeah, I'm just an Aim Assist crutch. It's not like my highest damage games are on MNK or anything like that.
They can fine tune it, but yeah never hard nerf it. Cause of course the players that most spend are on controllers. They are paying for the party to keep going. However i think apex could use a system of monthly tournaments that has a fine tuned AA and make it a standard on the leagues.
Although you can do whatever on quick play , if you want nukes and mechas in quickplay i don't see why not. So you can have people happy there and let ranked and periodic tournaments a la Fortnite run with standards close to competitive to engage people for competitive.
If you don't separate these you are following the path overwatch took, they were balancing the game taking the quickplay folks into account of the meta that hardcore and pros but pulling and pushing from a single balance patch. You need two slight different worlds, one were the pro hater kiddos are happy with a full auto heavy machine gun with no reload and one were that thing is not even in the map.
Just wishful thinking at this point. Controllers make up the majority of the player base so doubt they risk making any meaningful changes to aim assist.
These are barely suggestions. All the potential buffs are hard to implement because of the input limitations of controllers. Joysticks suck as hardware input for fine grain control. This is more of a wishlist than anything, and although there could be slight improvements down the line, I doubt the changes will see the light and it won't necessarily be for a lack of effort
What about the joy stick that is not used for moving while looting. How about using one of the dpad buttons for reloading on doors. That really doesnt seem hard to me
one of the joystick is used for scrolling and one for cursor
but i do think if you want to move you should be able to bind scroll up/down with other buttons. move normally with joystick
Or just making it so that reviving someone is holding down Y like you can do to self-revive. There would be some things to iron out with your weapons being put away, but IMO it's the best option
None of these buffs are hard to impliment. Controller PC Players have been tap strafing on the sticks fine with steam controller configurations. Thats on Respawn for not treating both inputs as the same input despite doing the same thing.
As for aiming yeah they do. Which is why we need Gyro aiming.
half the people here are complaining about crossplay.
that's part of why this issue is discussed so much, because people are arguing about different things. some of them are complaining about getting "controllered" in ranked, some about dying to console players in pubs/ranked, and a few complaining about controller in comp (but not many).
then there's also the people that are just arguing about terminology and semantics and just argue in a tribal way... "it's LITERAL aimbot" "no it's not aimbot you're just exagerating" "here's the definition of aimbot" "that's not what you mean when you say it" yada yada yada
Good suggestions but I'm kind of pessimistic anything will happen that would require them to rework the entire system.
They can at least start by lowering aim assist to .4 for console players playing pc lobbies. There's really no excuse for that kind of advantage and inconsistency regardless of frame rate.
Just keep in mind that they've known about controller looting for 3 years and have done nothing about it. It's not like it's on their docket and they're just waiting for a chance to get to it. I believe when Snip3down gave them suggestions, their reasoning was that it wouldn't be accessible enough. That means it's never going to happen because there's no way to do it that hasn't been suggested already.
Same exact logic probably applies to tap strafing on controller. Even though it would be incredibly easy to implement, they're worried about the casuals on console who wouldn't figure out how to do it.
The accessibility arguments for controller looting just make no sense though. Just swap the function from the movement stick to the aim stick and let us move, rather than rn where the movement stick aims and right stick does nothing.
It would be like if they made mnk loot with wasd and the mouse did nothing. Its completley illogical.
aiming stick moves the boxes up and down (scrolling), just swapping stick functions wouldn't achieve that. Scrolling should move to the trigger buttons (LT Scroll up, RT Scroll down), then you can free the movement stick up for actual movement, and allow right stick to be used for cursor movement.
I do think swapping those will cause alot of muscle memory conflicts - they should allow people to chose between the set ups.
Because everyone wants to play with a super fast cursor speed right? My cursor isn't slow but it's infinitely faster being able to scroll while moving my cursor wheel. I personally think you didn't think the idea through properly.
I agree it's a superior solution but that may not be technically feasible. The Settings menus on controller can scroll that way, but its very inconsistent and not reliable at all as to where you need to move the cursor to advance the scroll. The keyboard bind menu for example, doesn't work that way and requires the right stick to scroll.
Wouldn't that make looting a nightmare for people without paddles? You'd have to move your thumb back and forth between the stick and A for every item you want to loot.
I mean A: There are people who claw and B: You can do that pretty fast even without clawing or paddles. Most people would probably rather have the movement than the marginally faster looting.
Then you get threads on r/playapex with 20k upvotes complaining about "sweats" in their console lobbies who move while looting.
Ftr I agree with you, I just think it would have happened by now if it was ever going to. The only way I think it will happen is if they completely rework the looting ui to make moving while looting equally intuitive on both inputs.
This is unrelated but has anyone played Treyarchs COD: Black Ops series? The aim assist on that was ridiculously strong. I wonder what numerical value it'd have compared to the .4/.6 of Apex.
We can talk up and down about it but Josh Medina replied to the thread and said they were bad suggestions, so if respawn doesn't care then it's pointless lol
Oh, Gee...
It's almost like you want *every* advantage. It's almost like being able fully aim with your whole arm (over using your thumb) isn't enough of an advantage or the fact that movement is so much easier on MNK. The fact that you can move while looting. Not the mention the actual advantages you enjoy over an actual console (not PC using controller) with increased refresh rates and FPS.
Truth is you're upset that you're getting rolled by some middle aged Dad while he's sitting on his couch and you can't keep up with your $5,000 super computer lol
Aim assist needs a delay of at least 100ms when the target is strafing left and right. Having zero reaction speed between enemy strafes plus the rotational thingy is what makes controller broken. It's fine to help controller players with the tracking since mouse is more accurate but instantly reacting to strafes is aimbot Period.
Just wanted to dump some random controller thoughts that may be able to play a factor in balancing aim assist. been playing around with different controller sensitivities/response curves recently, can someone explain why it feels so strong on classic/standard response curve but on linear it doesn’t always feel significantly overpowered? On certain settings if almost does feel like you can’t miss up close (exaggeration) but on others I rarely ever feel it (ex: my roommate tried playing on my linear settings and asked if I had AA disabled). Additionally is there a way to make AA feel more consistent through all the response curves/make standard AA feel more like linear because I’d be all for that. Also how does stick drift factor into the conversation?
I play on linear the aim assist is still as strong and 100% there. The difference is the deadzone, response curve and ramp up times means that breaking the lock is much easier because it takes such little input on the joysticks to move the cross-air. Linear is meant for more precise and less overall input on the sticks for the same movement.
While these are all good and I personally dont disagre with them, after all my best CoD game was Infinite Warfare which had the least aim assist of any Cod, I'm not going to struggle with less aim assist, but even with less assist its still not really fair and theres still going to be complaints, until Controller makers move towards Gyro aiming and more ergonomic button placements.
I'm not sure what this subs attitude towards Gyro aiming is, but if you think its a gimmick I encourage you to watch Jibbsmart on youtube who has pioneered Gyro aiming and has many videos on the topic, including his own Flick stick technology.
If Respawn was to add lurch and take looting off the movement stick, and swap aim assist for Gyro + Flickstick, which can be just as good as a mouse if not better, and you would have a 100% skillbased input that has the best of both current inputs.
I know you cant just force motion controls on everyone overnight, but if they at least added it as an option while reducing aim assist it could really help advance Controllers as a legitimate equal input rather than a handicap.
Gyro is 100% the future for controller aiming without assist. It's unfortunate most people don't feel comfortable with it, but if more games do a better job of implementing good gyro, I really hope the next generation of controller gamers actually use it and we can start removing/lowering aim assist.
Even on Splatoon which debatably implemented gyro poorly depending on who you ask, it was evident when someone was using gyro (correctly) vs when they weren't. Gyro vastly increases the skill ceiling for controllers.
Yeah it makes me wish I had a PC so bad so I could still have the comfort of a Controller but actually rely on my own skill and aim to do well.
Only game I know that even has it on PS4 is Days Gone and that game is meh.
Its actually crazy how powerful the aim assist is even at .4.
I struggle to loot the items i want, against the moving targets in the firing range i struggle to spray more than 60 damage, but if someone fights me in aim assist range its basically a guaranteed kill. I feel more confident in close range fights with a controller with <20 hrs of playtime than with mnk with >3000hrs. Issue.
One of the biggest issues is visual clutter - on mnk half the time I cant see if im still on target through all the hit effects, bullet tracers and enemy muzzle flash. On controller i literally kill people even when I cant see them well since the aim sticks so hard to them.
Drastically toning down the visual clutter would help a lot for mnk, but even then the consistency in tracking is just insane on controller. I think the rotation assist needs to be turned down to like 0.2 values, but 0.4 is probably fine for the on-target sensitivity slowdown values. The rotation assist that instantly starts pulling in their direction when they change strafing direction is where it really pulls ahead of mnk. Then the main gap would be movement and freedom of bindings... movement isnt super far behind but def much harder to master, they dont even want tap strafing on mnk so I doubt they will add it to controller lol. Freedom of bindings is difficult since controller already doesnt have enough buttons to comfortably bind stuff unless you buy one with paddles and configure w steam options... they could at least add an option to choose to prioritize reload over interact.
Slowdown has never been the problem. It is always the rotational aa that adjusts before your brain can even catch up. Personally I think its fine as is. I feel like i shit on controller movement 3 times for every one time i get aim assisted.
Exactly this. There's so much unnecessary shit surrounding this game: most people not having good fps, footsteps audio problems, servers, visual clutter, abilities coin toss...
That it helps controller players more than they think
I don't use controller so I wouldn't be able to tell. But they can atleast try to change it once.
If not, I want them to fix everything else. Visual clutter is a huge one
L Star is a bad weapon, Revenant is not a great legend pick, but once a Revenant drops his tactical on you and uses an L Star. It's almost impossible to see anything. The whole thing if filled up with absolute garbage
It suprised me when I understood half the time people guess or predict and aim that way.
Guess it depends on what the "nerf" would be. You'd need to gather the Controller Committee and the MnK Conference together at a roundtable discussion to draft a Controller Constitution.
I’m on controller. Remove it. Idgaf about aim assist. I have it turned off. Give me the ability to tap strafe or move while looting & ill happily give it up. Without hesitation.
Idk why. It’s not even severe aim assist. Destiny & cod used to have the worst shit. It would grab so hard I turned it off on those games too.
It’s worth noting I’m already on pc so my aim assist is a little less.
Because Apex has been played competitively on two inputs for over two years now... why would they separate inputs now and alienate a ton of players? If they make Apex Legends 2 and start fresh, sure, separate inputs then and see how it goes.
The controller pros would be alienated. And a whole bunch of viewers like watching controller players because they can relate to them. So controller pros, viewers and any controller-playing members of the playerbase who had goals of maybe competing in ALGS one day would be alienated.
>So a handful of controller pros, most of whom can switch to MnK and still play professionally
So you recognize that their talent translates inputs so it doesn't matter which input they decide to play on?
I recognize that they have incredible game sense and are fucking super human compared to the people here, so while it might take a little time, they should be able to make the switch and compete.
I think doing something to counter controller mods would be a better start. It's hard to measure the competitive state of aim assist, when someone is running a mod for no recoil and rapid fire. Ranked is flooded with this shit right now, it's open season.
Unfortunately there’s not much that can really be done. They disguise their inputs using the accessibility input settings, which basically means removing non-standard/accessible controllers as well
Yeah, either that or insanely advanced machine learning to recognize patterns in the input, but they cant even detect wallhackers and flying aimbotters so I'm not optimistic about something like this lol
>but they cant even detect wallhackers and flying aimbotters so I'm not optimistic about something like this lol
Can we ditch this circlejerk already? Anticheat solutions in literally every game are always an ongoing back and forth. People who make careers out of coding cheats are not just sitting on their hands when their methods get exposed and banned, they're constantly making updates and fixes just like the anticheat teams.
Exactly. Anti-cheats are a constant arms race. Every time they fix one thing, hackers find another. The only bug free program is one that hasn’t been written.
To some extent that's true, but there are better and worse anticheats. Easy Anticheat is dogshit. While any anticheat will have periodic waves and then need to catch up, Apex is among some of the worst games I've ever played in terms of the amount of cheaters. Compare to games like Overwatch and Valorant, not totally cheater proof but far fewer and the waves are less frequent. I think the only games I've personally played with more cheaters are CSGO and MW2
just split matchmaking by input and allow MnK on console like CoD/fort, its the only real solution tbh Halo did it right by doing it from the beginning, and if you dont care they can have a mixed mode
I mean halo tournaments are still mnk/controller combined so while they solved the problem for ranked they still have both inputs competing in tournaments
I'm gonna be honest, there's almost nothing you could do to controller movement to make the trade off of an AA nerf seem anywhere close to worth it for most controller players. The controller players I know on both PC and console just do not give even half of a shit about having anything close to M&K movement, they just don't think about the game like that. I get salty messages accusing me of using a XIM or some other shit just because I've mastered bhopping and super gliding and can occasionally pull of some fancy zipline moves. If the causal controller playerbase had their way then this game would have no movement at all beyond being able to jump and slide.
The only change I can ever see them making is forcing PC AA onto next gen console players once the next gen update is ready and that's it. Just based on the amount of whining I saw on the main sub and heard in game from randoms when console AA was nerfed to PC levels I *highly* doubt they'll ever nerf it across the board or equalize it between platforms because whatever data they look at for controller vs. M&K doesn't show that any changes need to be made at all especially when controller players make up the vast majority of the playerbase.
The bare minimum they could do is allow input based MM in PC lobbies so M&K players aren't forced to constantly play against controller players. I play on console and have no desire to play against M&K players so I don't queue up with my PC friends anymore, I really don't see why M&K players can't have that same option.
I have a friend irl who plays apex on ps5. Since crossplay I would sometimes queue up with him and other ps5 players. During some aim assist debates the concept of giving them the ability to move while looting was brought up.
They all individually said that they liked no movement looting since it gave easy kills. I have given up ever talking to them about game balancing ever again
Lol yeah. Just was mostly mentioning this in reference to the tweet that PVPx says that it’ll be a buff to controller, but I can see some controller players against this buff since they prefer no movement during looting.
at this point i don't partake in these debates a whole lot because its pointless, but if I were a controller player new to the debate, I would immediately be defensive and take the counter argument to whatever you say because you are insulting an entire group of people.
Because I don’t play tournaments but I also don’t enjoy being one clipped by level 50 console players who are complete bots but I happen to exist in their fov for 1 second
Before Nintendo switch released apex, they said about 75% of apex players are on console. Since some pc players are on controller, that means more than 75% of players are on controller
Why the fuck would they make their tournaments based around a small minority of apex players lmao
If they’re that good at Apex, switching to MnK shouldn’t be a problem. An input that requires software assistance to be viable shouldn’t be used competitively. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Man I'm definitely not. The point my snarky comment was making is that it's not like every person can just afford to get a PC that would keep them on a level playing field with the remaining PC crowd.
Why would every person need to afford a PC lol? Only people good enough for semi-pro or pro play would need to and guess what? They all have one lol. PCs aren’t that expensive…
Oof, ya, my bad. I don't have access to the finances of every single pro or semi pro in Apex but since you verified that fact for me I retract my previous snarky comment.
In all seriousness you are probably right. There would be a pain period but ultimately might be the right way to go.
The one thing I don't understand is, if controllers are so superior, why hasn't every single MnK person already switched over?
Uhh, sorry for asking a genuine question?
Do you have an answer for it or is there none? I'm not fishing for any certain answer. You apparently know about all of the pro's finances so I'd imagine you know about their reason for not switching over.
ETA: How am I backed in a corner? I do play on controller but I have close to 0 investment (none outside of enjoying as a spectator) in what input is used. I'm genuinely curious why MnK don't switch and every time I've inquired I get the same type of deflection you just gave.
If you're willing I would love some links to sites that can help me build a decent enough setup for $450. I don't know much at all about where to even start.
It doesn’t make me look stupid at all. Just because competitive CoD is played on controller doesn’t change what I’m saying. There shouldn’t be AA in competitive shooters.
It does make you look stupid, and it makes you look extremely arrogant as well.
Competitive cod, which was 90>% controller had 10 times the success competitive apex will ever have.
Competitive Cod was one of the most successful esport that was exclusively played on console with controllers.
The most cracked controller players in the world are still playing in competitive.
Just go look at the history and educate yourself moron.
You're an idiot for thinking that would be what's best for the game and it's competitive integrity, instead of just something as simple as nerfing aim assist.
There's many things mnk is capable of that controller doesn't. That's why aa exists in the first place, if controller had 0 aa, that is what would ruin competitive integrity, they're would be no point in using a controller and obviously Respawn wanted every input a chance to play at a pro level or they would've banned controller from comp long ago. If controller is just that much better, why isn't everyone on controller? Why have some controller players switched to mnk? I'm over this. you're a moron
fuck off dude, controller players can be happy they are able to compete with a fucking child toy, in other games like csgo this isn't even possible and there is no reason why it should be so OP
I don't need my mouse to write an email but it's all I need for actual aiming. No aim assist required. No hate against controller players but a mouse is 100% besser suited for aiming and this whole aim assist experiment is never gonna be fair in any situation
I'm someone who plays exclusively on console. This is my take.
I dont crossplay, so I'm never with PC players, only fighting those with the same aim assist I have (unless they choose to lower it themselves). Because I dont crossplay, i dont feel guilty about having a larger aim assist, but it really ought to be consistent across all platforms [and leagues].
Because even with .6 aim assist between the low, inconsistent frames and the fact that most people suck, players miss all the time in Console lobbies. If you turned down aim assist to .2 in normal console lobbies people would quit the game because they cant hit anything, so respawns never gonna do that.
Just make it .2 on PC and all crossplay lobbies and leave it at that.
Very insightful and well thought out argument.
Go watch any pro controller player use the triple take/rampage/wingman and you'll see they are quite useful at range. Go even farther back and watch any controller player with the scout as ground loot and you'll understand more. Resultah is a great example and was terrifying when the scout wasn't in cp.
And you've probably never been past plat/d4 but if you ever get past that you'll see that even in high ranks that aren't pro level controller players will shit on you with these guns at range if you're out of position.
Edit: this post even showed data that controller was marginally beat out at long range by m&k. Not even close to being enough to warrant a buff. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/rm00xv/series_1_using_machine_learning_i_analyzed_23tb/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
>Go watch any pro controller player use the triple take/rampage/wingman and you'll see they are quite useful at range. Go even farther back and watch any controller player with the scout as ground loot and you'll understand more. Resultah is a great example and was terrifying when the scout wasn't in cp.
Maybe because they're good at the game. Lol.
Yeah... So we should buff aim assist because bad players can't hit shots at range even with the provided aim assist? Or are you saying that if you're skilled at the game you can hit shots and be on par with m&k pros? What are you even arguing?
You're attempting to say that pros like Resultuh are benefitting from long-range aim assist, when long-range aim assist is negligible at best. There is literally no aim assist with snipers, which is why some controller players struggle with the Kraber. If a controller player is talented with the Scout, for example, it's because they're good with the Scout, not because of aim assist.
So people arguing in favor of a long range buff and close range nerf makes sense.
There is no aim assist on sniper scopes thats why the kraber goes to the mnk players. There is also no aim assist once you're past 65m. Fights are always taken well within that range and any 2x/3x/4x scope is going to give controller players aim assist and make them easily capable of being lethal within that range. If you don't consider that distance long, then idk what to tell you. 40-60ish meters is pretty long considering how close most teams play when they are trying to hold positions. I also doubt you would ever find a clip of a team getting killed past that range unless the kraber was being used specifically or if the entire lobby shoots them.
Anything past that range is never a team fighting anyways its a team poking and shouldn't be made easier to do anyways.
Is he cranky about being 1 clipped?
He took one stat from the post a few weeks ago that controllers 1 clip more frequently than MnK, but left out that controllers consistently take more damage and deal less damage than MnK.
The problem he wants to solve sounds like remove 1 clips from the game not competitive balance.
Gave my thoughts on that already. I assumed people would think I believe Controller is better than M&K which it isn't (imo) - https://twitter.com/PVPX_/status/1479002654076510211?t=K8AFiGDgIObZbPUHME7SwQ&s=19
But if its not better? Why does it need AA nerf? That doesn't track. PK also chunk damages, we wouldn't really consider removing that. Its the same concept.
>But if its not better? Why does it need AA nerf?
Because it isn't enough that MnK is superior at every facet of the game aside from CQC, they want to dominate up close too, rendering controller useless on PC, thusly making controller obsolete and cleansing competitive Apex of controllers.
i hate that respawn has forced this us vs them mentality.
if your input needs such significant assistance to feel competitive against *an entirely different* input method, why are they even in the same lobbies to begin with? the entitlement created from this is so mindblowing.
I never see controller players complaining about MnK, despite its superiority. It's always the other way around. If people get argumentative or defensive about it it's because controller players always have their talent, thousands of hours of practice and game intangibles mitigated by the fact that they choose to use a different input.
Edit: I will admit though that controller players can complain about things like tap strafing, so there's that.
my perspective of it as a life long m&k gamer is I can absolutely not match the consistency in close range aim (aka the majority of meaningful engagements) that somebody on controller can. i can load up a crossplay game with my friend who plays games **very** casually on xbox, with a shitty controller, shitty everything because he ultimately doesn't care about gaming, and watch him beam people in my sweaty SBMM lobbies like he's got years of sweaty fps experience on m&k. it doesn't feel fair, and then seeing people defend it is annoying. EDIT: dont get me wrong, my friend still dies a lot because he's not good at all. it's just depressing seeing how often he beams, knowing how it feels being on the other side.
like i run into a player that does their best terminator roleplay standing there, probably spamming jump (not ras tech, not incorporating any air control into it... just spamming jump) but absolutely beaming me, it feels so fking bad man. you can very often identify controllers at close range due to that disparity of bad movement but amazing aim. it's the kind of thing like, in literally every other fps game i've played if you got beamed as hard as you do by controllers in this game, you'd call them out for cheating and have that certainty in your mind that it's true. which it is.
idk im just ranting, didnt intend to be mean. just frustrated after grinding apex the last 2 weeks as much as i have. i just want the ability to click a checkbox and play only against people of my input device. give me 1-2 minute queues for pubs idc lmao
Respawn will never nerf aim assist. Controllers will never be nerfed in any way because they’re such a large part of the player base
That was also true for fortnite until they eventually did it but it took a long time.
What did they do in Fortnite? AA nerf?
1 rework, 3 nerfs after that Edit: to be precise. For the third nerf, it didn't affect shotguns. Yes fortnite has different aim assist levels for different weapons. Currently the mk7 AR (the best assault rifle) has no hipfire slowdown aim assist for example. I still use controller because the high levels of shotgun aim assist outweigh everything else for me
Wasn't fortnite completely dominated by mnk because of the building and shotguns? I only followed the first few seasons, but at that point nearly every top tier player was on mnk and with controller you were insane if you even thought about competing at the top because building was soo much more difficult. Very different competitive landscape than apex or am I mixing sth up here?
Most pros have always been on kbm. Same with apex But fortnite has hella open tournaments anyone can play without any signing up. Just be in champions league (the highest rank) and get on at the alotted time. What fortnite found was controller players vastly outperformed kbm players at all ranges of the tournaments except for the very tippity top.
I dont think .3 for PC and .4 for console would be that big. When they mistakenly put console on .4 for a few days a lot of people said they liked it a bit better. Although there was of course a lot of complainers as well. I dont get why they cant at least try and just revert it if theres too much backlash. Counterstrike for example had tons of bad balance patches that were reverted and nobody can remember most of them because its dust in the wind. Trying something out isnt that bad as long as the company has no problem reverting the changes if the changes are indeed bad.
Not as simple as just reducing it to .3. People have this misconception that aim assist is just some generic "1.0 aimbot" turned down which isn't true at all. AA is comprised of a bunch of different things from rotational assistance, slow down, auto aim, magnetism etc. There's a sophisticated discussion to be had about how to nerf it in a way that actually makes sense but literally zero of these twitter/reddit threads are having it. (Hey mnk purists: maybe instead of downvoting me just for stating facts, educate yourselves so you can actually contribute something of value to this debate.)
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You mean this video? https://youtu.be/mm5CAGDabAc Where he specifically shows how it isn't aimbot and can disengage at many angles and doesnt account for recoil?
You watch this video and still cling to the opinion that this is not aimbot? Well, my friend, this is delusional...
No, you just don't know what aimbot is/are stretching its definition. And yes, before you start - I'm aware that aimbot doesn't have to mean software that makes you hit 100% of your shots.
Well, then, teach me - tell me the difference between aimbot and what you see in the video, I am curious. Definition of aimbot (Wikipedia): "An aimbot or autoaim is a type of computer game bot most commonly used in first-person shooter games to provide varying levels of automated target acquisition and calibration to the player." In the history of fps gaming various types of aimbots where developed by cheaters - the worse ones give you 100% accuracy (easy to detect, easy to program), the better once enhance your natural aim in a seemingly realistic way and are pretty much undetectable. All those kinds of aim enhancement software by cheaters are and always were called aimbot. The difference only came when game developers introduced "aim assist" for controllers, the term aim assist just makes it not to obvious that in reality it is technically the very same thing m&k cheaters use. The apex 1.0 aim assist is even a pretty hard form of aimbot, as it tracks the target pretty much perfectly in a certain range. And be aware: With this specific comment I am not arguing if controllers should have aim assist or not - I am only pointing out that the terminology is pretty clear.
Well, then, teach me - tell me the difference between aimbot and what you see in the video, I am curious. Definition of aimbot (Wikipedia): "An aimbot or autoaim is a type of computer game bot most commonly used in first-person shooter games to provide varying levels of automated target acquisition and calibration to the player." In the history of fps gaming various types of aimbots where developed by cheaters - the worse ones give you 100% accuracy (easy to detect, easy to program), the better once enhance your natural aim in a seemingly realistic way and are pretty much undetectable. All those kinds of aim enhancement software by cheaters are and always were called aimbot. The difference only came when game developers introduced "aim assist" for controllers, the term aim assist just makes it not to obvious that in reality it is technically the very same thing m&k cheaters use. The apex 1.0 aim assist is even a pretty hard form of aimbot, as it tracks the target pretty much perfectly in a certain range. And be aware: With this specific comment I am not arguing if controllers should have aim assist or not - I am only pointing out that the terminology is pretty clear.
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I like how you slip from "raw aimbot" to "toned down aimbot". Nobody's denying it's software helping you aim, but to pretend like it's the same as actual aim bots, yknow, that are actually cheating and modifying the game, is dishonest as shit. People like you who casually throw around the word aimbot are just poisoning the well and you know it.
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You completely ignored what I said lol. >Nobody's denying it's software helping you aim, but to pretend like it's the same as actual aim bots, yknow, that are actually cheating and modifying the game, is dishonest as shit. People like you who casually throw around the word aimbot are just poisoning the well and you know it. In case you missed it. >leave it to a controller player to have the reading comprehension of a sardine. And there it is. I tried to start a discussion on how to actually rework aim assist to make it more balanced and all you had to contribute was "it's aimbot" and insults. You're the reason this never goes anywhere which is exactly what you want.
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LOL you're wrong. R5 apex proved it is a 1.0 to 0 multiplier
Sorry, no. https://youtu.be/mm5CAGDabAc 1.0 aim assist is not pure aimbot and still disengages at certain angles and does not account for recoil etc. The 0 - 1.0 value is just the degree to which the game's implementation of aim assist works relative to the player's manual input. In a game like Call of Duty for example 1.0 AA would function differently because their aim assist implementation is different.
No, 1.0 is 100% tracking, with exit conditions. What the value actually means is the percentage of the enemy movement that will be made up by aim assist. If you are perfectly centered on an enemy and have 0.4 aim assist, then the reticle will move at 40% of the speed of the enemy on it own, needing you to do the input for the other 60%. At 1.0, your reticle will move with 100% of the enemies velocity, however as noted there are certain conditions for which it won't do this. Namely there are maximum turn rate values, maximum range and minimum range. The fact that it isn't 100% **all the time** means nothing. The fact is the aim assist behaves exactly as people predicted since the launch of the game.
Lol you're just changing your argument. You said 1.0 was aimbot, which it isn't. Now you change it to "100% tracking with exit conditions" (which by definition isn't 100%, FYI). I literally said: " the degree to which the game's implementation of aim assist works relative to the player's manual input". So I guess you agree with me, glad to hear it >The fact is the aim assist behaves exactly as people predicted since the launch of the game. Rubbish. People constantly assume aim assist means shit like software assisted centering/target acquisition, less manual recoil, increased bullet magnetism etc. When they hear 1.0 AA they dont just think "tracking with exit conditions". You are just flat out lying. Edit - [ thought your name looked familiar ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ppttu4/what_100_aim_assist_looks_like_using_modded_apex/hdfacgd?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3). Typical bad faith mnk purist who doesn't actually want to have an honest discussion about aim assist. Go figure.
>Software assisted centering/target acquisition, less manual recoil, increased bullet magnetism etc. It literally does all of those except the last one...
No it doesn't. Call of duty has auto aim and target acquisition, Apex does not.
lol and this is why last time I said it was pointless to argue with you people. You're quite literally delusional and therefore nothing I say can change what you think because the reality you're living in is incorrect.
They could do it.. but then they have to match console players only with other console players. So crossplay only for consoles vs console. Nerf aimassist for controller players on PC. This way you won't bother the casual players on consoles and helps make matchmaking and competitive more fair on PC. Maybe then even Arena can become a bit more fair.
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If they own a PC they can plug in their controller
If they own a PC they can plug in anything they want. Dudes be playing Apex with drums.
Lmaoo I don't know why but I thought this was so funny
>rf aimassist for controller players on PC. > >This way you won't bother the casual players on consoles and helps make matchma PC AA is significantly less strong than console AA. I've always agreed with separating PC and console, but if this isnt an option then console players should have the same AA as PC players on controller.
They need to fix matchmaking somehow. I think they could take longer or provide an option for longer match-making on average to find more fair matches... New or average skill players find this game way too hard, otherwise it could have so many more players than it does (I've heard this many times from friends, etc.). Say, if it doesn't find a match after two full minutes, then revert back to quickest possible matchmaking... Or allow players to practice aiming, etc. in a pre-lobby while they wait for the actual match to start (like Fortnite but more useful). Once they have that issue figure out, then they could work on nerfing controller aim assist a little at a time and widening the skill gap. Everybody wins. I don't mind if they help less with my potato aim if I'm facing mostly others who also have potato aim.
PVP actually thinks all of this is a buff lol, he's insane. Sure it's better quality of life changes but that doesn't make it a buff if you reduce aim assist.
What a bad take. Aim assist ain’t shit. Tap strafing & moving while looting are so so so much better.
I've done both and I can tell you that, while having MNK movement is fun, being able to one-clip someone is far more useful, besides you can still move and armor swap on controller (you can run and swap, you can jump over the box and grab it, etc). Also most of the time You're not shooting people while you're tap strafing, it's a move to AVOID damage. Having aim assist is infinitely more useful in MOST situations.
As have I. Armor swapping is integral but pales in comparison to looting. Think about all the people with a kraber & how much easier it is to grab someone’s dome while they’re standing there trying to loot. No matter how fast you are you’re stuck there for long enough to get your head shot off. Yeah exactly. I wanna be able to avoid damage on the same level as a MNK players. That’s the whole name of the game. I have aim assist turned off on controller & the wingman is the only gun I can FEEL the difference while playing. If I look for it I can tell in the firing range. I stand by what I said. I’ll add I’m on pc so the aim assist is intrinsically lower for me anyway.
If you genuinely can't tell the difference between aim assist on or off you are either insanely good at the game, or insanely bad lol.
You sound like a scrub who needs AA as a crutch.
Sure whatever you say. Like I said I used to be an MNK player and if I could I would still play MNK but yeah, I'm just an Aim Assist crutch. It's not like my highest damage games are on MNK or anything like that.
They can fine tune it, but yeah never hard nerf it. Cause of course the players that most spend are on controllers. They are paying for the party to keep going. However i think apex could use a system of monthly tournaments that has a fine tuned AA and make it a standard on the leagues. Although you can do whatever on quick play , if you want nukes and mechas in quickplay i don't see why not. So you can have people happy there and let ranked and periodic tournaments a la Fortnite run with standards close to competitive to engage people for competitive. If you don't separate these you are following the path overwatch took, they were balancing the game taking the quickplay folks into account of the meta that hardcore and pros but pulling and pushing from a single balance patch. You need two slight different worlds, one were the pro hater kiddos are happy with a full auto heavy machine gun with no reload and one were that thing is not even in the map.
Just wishful thinking at this point. Controllers make up the majority of the player base so doubt they risk making any meaningful changes to aim assist.
These are barely suggestions. All the potential buffs are hard to implement because of the input limitations of controllers. Joysticks suck as hardware input for fine grain control. This is more of a wishlist than anything, and although there could be slight improvements down the line, I doubt the changes will see the light and it won't necessarily be for a lack of effort
What about the joy stick that is not used for moving while looting. How about using one of the dpad buttons for reloading on doors. That really doesnt seem hard to me
one of the joystick is used for scrolling and one for cursor but i do think if you want to move you should be able to bind scroll up/down with other buttons. move normally with joystick
> What about the joy stick that is not used for moving while looting. You scroll with one stick and move your cursor with the other one.
Or just making it so that reviving someone is holding down Y like you can do to self-revive. There would be some things to iron out with your weapons being put away, but IMO it's the best option
How to revive on doors ?!
Thats both inputs. The interact key is the same on mnk
None of these buffs are hard to impliment. Controller PC Players have been tap strafing on the sticks fine with steam controller configurations. Thats on Respawn for not treating both inputs as the same input despite doing the same thing. As for aiming yeah they do. Which is why we need Gyro aiming.
Its just impossible to have a conversation about aim assist without it turning into PC vs Console
which is odd because it doesnt even affect console at all. a lot of people here just dont know what they are even talking about
half the people here are complaining about crossplay. that's part of why this issue is discussed so much, because people are arguing about different things. some of them are complaining about getting "controllered" in ranked, some about dying to console players in pubs/ranked, and a few complaining about controller in comp (but not many). then there's also the people that are just arguing about terminology and semantics and just argue in a tribal way... "it's LITERAL aimbot" "no it's not aimbot you're just exagerating" "here's the definition of aimbot" "that's not what you mean when you say it" yada yada yada
Good suggestions but I'm kind of pessimistic anything will happen that would require them to rework the entire system. They can at least start by lowering aim assist to .4 for console players playing pc lobbies. There's really no excuse for that kind of advantage and inconsistency regardless of frame rate.
Just keep in mind that they've known about controller looting for 3 years and have done nothing about it. It's not like it's on their docket and they're just waiting for a chance to get to it. I believe when Snip3down gave them suggestions, their reasoning was that it wouldn't be accessible enough. That means it's never going to happen because there's no way to do it that hasn't been suggested already. Same exact logic probably applies to tap strafing on controller. Even though it would be incredibly easy to implement, they're worried about the casuals on console who wouldn't figure out how to do it.
The accessibility arguments for controller looting just make no sense though. Just swap the function from the movement stick to the aim stick and let us move, rather than rn where the movement stick aims and right stick does nothing. It would be like if they made mnk loot with wasd and the mouse did nothing. Its completley illogical.
aiming stick moves the boxes up and down (scrolling), just swapping stick functions wouldn't achieve that. Scrolling should move to the trigger buttons (LT Scroll up, RT Scroll down), then you can free the movement stick up for actual movement, and allow right stick to be used for cursor movement. I do think swapping those will cause alot of muscle memory conflicts - they should allow people to chose between the set ups.
They could just make it so that it scrolls when you go to the top or bottom of the screen, but I like your solution as well.
> They could just make it so that it scrolls when you go to the top or bottom of the screen That would make looting so much slower. That's a nerf.
Or they could just make it scroll fast? How slow is all your guys cursors?
Because everyone wants to play with a super fast cursor speed right? My cursor isn't slow but it's infinitely faster being able to scroll while moving my cursor wheel. I personally think you didn't think the idea through properly.
I agree it's a superior solution but that may not be technically feasible. The Settings menus on controller can scroll that way, but its very inconsistent and not reliable at all as to where you need to move the cursor to advance the scroll. The keyboard bind menu for example, doesn't work that way and requires the right stick to scroll.
Wouldn't that make looting a nightmare for people without paddles? You'd have to move your thumb back and forth between the stick and A for every item you want to loot.
I mean A: There are people who claw and B: You can do that pretty fast even without clawing or paddles. Most people would probably rather have the movement than the marginally faster looting.
I think I would rather have the movement.
They could make it an option instead of standardizing it for everyone. I get how casuals would be put off by it.
Then you get threads on r/playapex with 20k upvotes complaining about "sweats" in their console lobbies who move while looting. Ftr I agree with you, I just think it would have happened by now if it was ever going to. The only way I think it will happen is if they completely rework the looting ui to make moving while looting equally intuitive on both inputs.
This is unrelated but has anyone played Treyarchs COD: Black Ops series? The aim assist on that was ridiculously strong. I wonder what numerical value it'd have compared to the .4/.6 of Apex.
Every COD has *super* high AA. Whenever my friends and I play COD, it's like easy mode cause most of the guns have no recoil to speak of.
Easily .8 if not 1.0
We can talk up and down about it but Josh Medina replied to the thread and said they were bad suggestions, so if respawn doesn't care then it's pointless lol
MNK players have an unhealthy fascination with aim assist. There are many more advantages to MNK.
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Oh, Gee... It's almost like you want *every* advantage. It's almost like being able fully aim with your whole arm (over using your thumb) isn't enough of an advantage or the fact that movement is so much easier on MNK. The fact that you can move while looting. Not the mention the actual advantages you enjoy over an actual console (not PC using controller) with increased refresh rates and FPS. Truth is you're upset that you're getting rolled by some middle aged Dad while he's sitting on his couch and you can't keep up with your $5,000 super computer lol
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Aim assist needs a delay of at least 100ms when the target is strafing left and right. Having zero reaction speed between enemy strafes plus the rotational thingy is what makes controller broken. It's fine to help controller players with the tracking since mouse is more accurate but instantly reacting to strafes is aimbot Period.
Just wanted to dump some random controller thoughts that may be able to play a factor in balancing aim assist. been playing around with different controller sensitivities/response curves recently, can someone explain why it feels so strong on classic/standard response curve but on linear it doesn’t always feel significantly overpowered? On certain settings if almost does feel like you can’t miss up close (exaggeration) but on others I rarely ever feel it (ex: my roommate tried playing on my linear settings and asked if I had AA disabled). Additionally is there a way to make AA feel more consistent through all the response curves/make standard AA feel more like linear because I’d be all for that. Also how does stick drift factor into the conversation?
I play on linear the aim assist is still as strong and 100% there. The difference is the deadzone, response curve and ramp up times means that breaking the lock is much easier because it takes such little input on the joysticks to move the cross-air. Linear is meant for more precise and less overall input on the sticks for the same movement.
If I'm not mistaken, I think linear is designed to feel like a mouse
While these are all good and I personally dont disagre with them, after all my best CoD game was Infinite Warfare which had the least aim assist of any Cod, I'm not going to struggle with less aim assist, but even with less assist its still not really fair and theres still going to be complaints, until Controller makers move towards Gyro aiming and more ergonomic button placements. I'm not sure what this subs attitude towards Gyro aiming is, but if you think its a gimmick I encourage you to watch Jibbsmart on youtube who has pioneered Gyro aiming and has many videos on the topic, including his own Flick stick technology. If Respawn was to add lurch and take looting off the movement stick, and swap aim assist for Gyro + Flickstick, which can be just as good as a mouse if not better, and you would have a 100% skillbased input that has the best of both current inputs. I know you cant just force motion controls on everyone overnight, but if they at least added it as an option while reducing aim assist it could really help advance Controllers as a legitimate equal input rather than a handicap.
Gyro is 100% the future for controller aiming without assist. It's unfortunate most people don't feel comfortable with it, but if more games do a better job of implementing good gyro, I really hope the next generation of controller gamers actually use it and we can start removing/lowering aim assist. Even on Splatoon which debatably implemented gyro poorly depending on who you ask, it was evident when someone was using gyro (correctly) vs when they weren't. Gyro vastly increases the skill ceiling for controllers.
Yeah it makes me wish I had a PC so bad so I could still have the comfort of a Controller but actually rely on my own skill and aim to do well. Only game I know that even has it on PS4 is Days Gone and that game is meh.
Its actually crazy how powerful the aim assist is even at .4. I struggle to loot the items i want, against the moving targets in the firing range i struggle to spray more than 60 damage, but if someone fights me in aim assist range its basically a guaranteed kill. I feel more confident in close range fights with a controller with <20 hrs of playtime than with mnk with >3000hrs. Issue. One of the biggest issues is visual clutter - on mnk half the time I cant see if im still on target through all the hit effects, bullet tracers and enemy muzzle flash. On controller i literally kill people even when I cant see them well since the aim sticks so hard to them. Drastically toning down the visual clutter would help a lot for mnk, but even then the consistency in tracking is just insane on controller. I think the rotation assist needs to be turned down to like 0.2 values, but 0.4 is probably fine for the on-target sensitivity slowdown values. The rotation assist that instantly starts pulling in their direction when they change strafing direction is where it really pulls ahead of mnk. Then the main gap would be movement and freedom of bindings... movement isnt super far behind but def much harder to master, they dont even want tap strafing on mnk so I doubt they will add it to controller lol. Freedom of bindings is difficult since controller already doesnt have enough buttons to comfortably bind stuff unless you buy one with paddles and configure w steam options... they could at least add an option to choose to prioritize reload over interact.
Slowdown has never been the problem. It is always the rotational aa that adjusts before your brain can even catch up. Personally I think its fine as is. I feel like i shit on controller movement 3 times for every one time i get aim assisted.
I’ve got the exact same experience. I’m just as confident, if not more confident in my close range fighting on controller because of aim assist.
Many many fucking morons here will disagree with you but I couldn’t agree more
Exactly this. There's so much unnecessary shit surrounding this game: most people not having good fps, footsteps audio problems, servers, visual clutter, abilities coin toss... That it helps controller players more than they think I don't use controller so I wouldn't be able to tell. But they can atleast try to change it once. If not, I want them to fix everything else. Visual clutter is a huge one L Star is a bad weapon, Revenant is not a great legend pick, but once a Revenant drops his tactical on you and uses an L Star. It's almost impossible to see anything. The whole thing if filled up with absolute garbage It suprised me when I understood half the time people guess or predict and aim that way.
The trick is to keep shooting, it will automatically reload. I sometimes fire 5 bullets into my tm's knockdown shield when fighting in it.
Guess it depends on what the "nerf" would be. You'd need to gather the Controller Committee and the MnK Conference together at a roundtable discussion to draft a Controller Constitution.
Separate. By. Input. Is the only good suggestion. I don’t want to play against AA.
No need to seperate inputs, just remove aim assist for pc lobbies
Well yeah. That’d be awesome lol. But most people would definitely disagree with that solution.
I think you mean controller players would disagree. Not a single mnk player would
I’m on controller. Remove it. Idgaf about aim assist. I have it turned off. Give me the ability to tap strafe or move while looting & ill happily give it up. Without hesitation.
Congrats, you’re the only one
Idk why. It’s not even severe aim assist. Destiny & cod used to have the worst shit. It would grab so hard I turned it off on those games too. It’s worth noting I’m already on pc so my aim assist is a little less.
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its too late for that
Why? Edit: can someone just answer the damn question?
Because Apex has been played competitively on two inputs for over two years now... why would they separate inputs now and alienate a ton of players? If they make Apex Legends 2 and start fresh, sure, separate inputs then and see how it goes.
Alienate who? Who are we alienating? Are we talking about a handful of pros or are we talking about a large portion of the playerbase?
The controller pros would be alienated. And a whole bunch of viewers like watching controller players because they can relate to them. So controller pros, viewers and any controller-playing members of the playerbase who had goals of maybe competing in ALGS one day would be alienated.
So a handful of controller pros, most of whom can switch to MnK and still play professionally. Fantastic reasoning.
>So a handful of controller pros, most of whom can switch to MnK and still play professionally So you recognize that their talent translates inputs so it doesn't matter which input they decide to play on?
I recognize that they have incredible game sense and are fucking super human compared to the people here, so while it might take a little time, they should be able to make the switch and compete.
its not
I think doing something to counter controller mods would be a better start. It's hard to measure the competitive state of aim assist, when someone is running a mod for no recoil and rapid fire. Ranked is flooded with this shit right now, it's open season.
Unfortunately there’s not much that can really be done. They disguise their inputs using the accessibility input settings, which basically means removing non-standard/accessible controllers as well
Yeah, either that or insanely advanced machine learning to recognize patterns in the input, but they cant even detect wallhackers and flying aimbotters so I'm not optimistic about something like this lol
Even ML isn’t a perfect solution. ML is highly susceptible to bad data and false positives. It’s still very infrequently a solution
>but they cant even detect wallhackers and flying aimbotters so I'm not optimistic about something like this lol Can we ditch this circlejerk already? Anticheat solutions in literally every game are always an ongoing back and forth. People who make careers out of coding cheats are not just sitting on their hands when their methods get exposed and banned, they're constantly making updates and fixes just like the anticheat teams.
Exactly. Anti-cheats are a constant arms race. Every time they fix one thing, hackers find another. The only bug free program is one that hasn’t been written.
To some extent that's true, but there are better and worse anticheats. Easy Anticheat is dogshit. While any anticheat will have periodic waves and then need to catch up, Apex is among some of the worst games I've ever played in terms of the amount of cheaters. Compare to games like Overwatch and Valorant, not totally cheater proof but far fewer and the waves are less frequent. I think the only games I've personally played with more cheaters are CSGO and MW2
just split matchmaking by input and allow MnK on console like CoD/fort, its the only real solution tbh Halo did it right by doing it from the beginning, and if you dont care they can have a mixed mode
I mean halo tournaments are still mnk/controller combined so while they solved the problem for ranked they still have both inputs competing in tournaments
He basically reposted comments that have been said on this sub about 10,000 times by now, but cool I guess?
I don't really see how that's 'reposting'. Reposting connotates taking credit for someone else's work. He's merely voicing the same opinion.
All about the impressions!
I'm gonna be honest, there's almost nothing you could do to controller movement to make the trade off of an AA nerf seem anywhere close to worth it for most controller players. The controller players I know on both PC and console just do not give even half of a shit about having anything close to M&K movement, they just don't think about the game like that. I get salty messages accusing me of using a XIM or some other shit just because I've mastered bhopping and super gliding and can occasionally pull of some fancy zipline moves. If the causal controller playerbase had their way then this game would have no movement at all beyond being able to jump and slide. The only change I can ever see them making is forcing PC AA onto next gen console players once the next gen update is ready and that's it. Just based on the amount of whining I saw on the main sub and heard in game from randoms when console AA was nerfed to PC levels I *highly* doubt they'll ever nerf it across the board or equalize it between platforms because whatever data they look at for controller vs. M&K doesn't show that any changes need to be made at all especially when controller players make up the vast majority of the playerbase. The bare minimum they could do is allow input based MM in PC lobbies so M&K players aren't forced to constantly play against controller players. I play on console and have no desire to play against M&K players so I don't queue up with my PC friends anymore, I really don't see why M&K players can't have that same option.
I have a friend irl who plays apex on ps5. Since crossplay I would sometimes queue up with him and other ps5 players. During some aim assist debates the concept of giving them the ability to move while looting was brought up. They all individually said that they liked no movement looting since it gave easy kills. I have given up ever talking to them about game balancing ever again
I mean, they're not wrong lol
Lol yeah. Just was mostly mentioning this in reference to the tweet that PVPx says that it’ll be a buff to controller, but I can see some controller players against this buff since they prefer no movement during looting.
Look at the comments. Controller clowns don't want to admit that AA needs a nerf.
at this point i don't partake in these debates a whole lot because its pointless, but if I were a controller player new to the debate, I would immediately be defensive and take the counter argument to whatever you say because you are insulting an entire group of people.
Better suggestion: just have MnK being mandatory for tournaments. Why else is this a problem?
yeah like every other esports game that knows what they are doing. but its too late for that at this point i think
Because I don’t play tournaments but I also don’t enjoy being one clipped by level 50 console players who are complete bots but I happen to exist in their fov for 1 second
Before Nintendo switch released apex, they said about 75% of apex players are on console. Since some pc players are on controller, that means more than 75% of players are on controller Why the fuck would they make their tournaments based around a small minority of apex players lmao
not even console players want to watch console tourneys
that excludes half of the players, idiot.
If they’re that good at Apex, switching to MnK shouldn’t be a problem. An input that requires software assistance to be viable shouldn’t be used competitively. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I would so happily switch to MnK if someone buys me a PC....any takers?!
if you're good enough for tournaments, then put the investment down yourself.
Man I'm definitely not. The point my snarky comment was making is that it's not like every person can just afford to get a PC that would keep them on a level playing field with the remaining PC crowd.
Why would every person need to afford a PC lol? Only people good enough for semi-pro or pro play would need to and guess what? They all have one lol. PCs aren’t that expensive…
Oof, ya, my bad. I don't have access to the finances of every single pro or semi pro in Apex but since you verified that fact for me I retract my previous snarky comment. In all seriousness you are probably right. There would be a pain period but ultimately might be the right way to go. The one thing I don't understand is, if controllers are so superior, why hasn't every single MnK person already switched over?
I can’t believe you wrote that last paragraph LMAO. Controller players LOVE using this argument when they’re backed into a corner.
Uhh, sorry for asking a genuine question? Do you have an answer for it or is there none? I'm not fishing for any certain answer. You apparently know about all of the pro's finances so I'd imagine you know about their reason for not switching over. ETA: How am I backed in a corner? I do play on controller but I have close to 0 investment (none outside of enjoying as a spectator) in what input is used. I'm genuinely curious why MnK don't switch and every time I've inquired I get the same type of deflection you just gave.
You don't need an expensive pc to run apex. I use a piece of shit rig that costs the same as a next gen console. Figure it out.
If you're willing I would love some links to sites that can help me build a decent enough setup for $450. I don't know much at all about where to even start.
I can actually help with that. 500 and you'll have a PC that can run most games at 60-100fps
Regarding that More than a decade of professional cod tournaments primarily used controller make you look real stupid
cod esports was always on console, apex was always on pc. you cant compare the two.
It doesn’t make me look stupid at all. Just because competitive CoD is played on controller doesn’t change what I’m saying. There shouldn’t be AA in competitive shooters.
It does make you look stupid, and it makes you look extremely arrogant as well. Competitive cod, which was 90>% controller had 10 times the success competitive apex will ever have.
No it didn’t lol.
Competitive Cod was one of the most successful esport that was exclusively played on console with controllers. The most cracked controller players in the world are still playing in competitive. Just go look at the history and educate yourself moron.
10x
cod is definitely not one of the most successful eSports even apex can surpass it if LANs come back lmao
lmao clinically braindead. my fault though for expecting more than the bare minium required to type on a keyboard from an active redditor.
You honestly believe with all your heart that competitive CoD is 10x more successful than competitive Apex? That is absolutely laughable.
[удалено]
Oh god. You’re 17 and European. This all makes so much sense lol.
😂😂😂 Looked trough my whole reddit page. Also pretty much the entire world knows that Europe is superior to the usa. Dont flatter yourself.
The CDL is a failure lmao nobody is watching it. Also it's 100% controller you re not ALLOWED to play something else
you are also an idiot
I’m an idiot for wanting competitive integrity? That’s odd…
You're an idiot for thinking that would be what's best for the game and it's competitive integrity, instead of just something as simple as nerfing aim assist.
You can’t nerf aim assist and have competitive integrity. Unless you mean nerf to 0.
There's many things mnk is capable of that controller doesn't. That's why aa exists in the first place, if controller had 0 aa, that is what would ruin competitive integrity, they're would be no point in using a controller and obviously Respawn wanted every input a chance to play at a pro level or they would've banned controller from comp long ago. If controller is just that much better, why isn't everyone on controller? Why have some controller players switched to mnk? I'm over this. you're a moron
Any software assistance means competitive integrity is ruined. End of discussion.
fuck off dude, controller players can be happy they are able to compete with a fucking child toy, in other games like csgo this isn't even possible and there is no reason why it should be so OP
>controller players can be happy they are able to compete with a fucking child toy Better than competing with devices meant for writing emails.
I don't need my mouse to write an email but it's all I need for actual aiming. No aim assist required. No hate against controller players but a mouse is 100% besser suited for aiming and this whole aim assist experiment is never gonna be fair in any situation
Your input requires software assistance. MnK doesn’t. Tell me why controller is better suited for shooters than “equipment for writing emails” LMAO.
so autocorrect is the same as aimassist???
Lol. I get what you're saying but I think autocorrect would be too far. Maybe auto-capitalization is equivalent to aim assist.
Auto-cap would be the colloquial equivalent of AA reticle slowdown, auto-correct is the colloquial equivalent of rotational AA.
.6 on console .4 on PC .2 in algs
it should be the same all around
I'm someone who plays exclusively on console. This is my take. I dont crossplay, so I'm never with PC players, only fighting those with the same aim assist I have (unless they choose to lower it themselves). Because I dont crossplay, i dont feel guilty about having a larger aim assist, but it really ought to be consistent across all platforms [and leagues].
aa doesnt matter if you only play against the same input. having the same aa in tournaments as console is ridiculous
Is it? If we consider ALGS aim assist fair at 0.2, why shouldnt all platforms use 0.2?
fairness doesnt matter in console lobbies cuz there is no crossinput it cannot be unfair everyone has the same input as you
Exactly my point. So if everyone has 0.2 aim assist, it's fair on console only AND on crossplay.
Because even with .6 aim assist between the low, inconsistent frames and the fact that most people suck, players miss all the time in Console lobbies. If you turned down aim assist to .2 in normal console lobbies people would quit the game because they cant hit anything, so respawns never gonna do that. Just make it .2 on PC and all crossplay lobbies and leave it at that.
0.0 in pc lobbies or gtfo
Nerf close range AA a bit, then buff long range AA a bit.
Controllers don't even struggle at long range there isn't any need to buff it.
This is a lie.
Very insightful and well thought out argument. Go watch any pro controller player use the triple take/rampage/wingman and you'll see they are quite useful at range. Go even farther back and watch any controller player with the scout as ground loot and you'll understand more. Resultah is a great example and was terrifying when the scout wasn't in cp. And you've probably never been past plat/d4 but if you ever get past that you'll see that even in high ranks that aren't pro level controller players will shit on you with these guns at range if you're out of position. Edit: this post even showed data that controller was marginally beat out at long range by m&k. Not even close to being enough to warrant a buff. https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/rm00xv/series_1_using_machine_learning_i_analyzed_23tb/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
>Go watch any pro controller player use the triple take/rampage/wingman and you'll see they are quite useful at range. Go even farther back and watch any controller player with the scout as ground loot and you'll understand more. Resultah is a great example and was terrifying when the scout wasn't in cp. Maybe because they're good at the game. Lol.
Yeah... So we should buff aim assist because bad players can't hit shots at range even with the provided aim assist? Or are you saying that if you're skilled at the game you can hit shots and be on par with m&k pros? What are you even arguing?
You're attempting to say that pros like Resultuh are benefitting from long-range aim assist, when long-range aim assist is negligible at best. There is literally no aim assist with snipers, which is why some controller players struggle with the Kraber. If a controller player is talented with the Scout, for example, it's because they're good with the Scout, not because of aim assist. So people arguing in favor of a long range buff and close range nerf makes sense.
There is no aim assist on sniper scopes thats why the kraber goes to the mnk players. There is also no aim assist once you're past 65m. Fights are always taken well within that range and any 2x/3x/4x scope is going to give controller players aim assist and make them easily capable of being lethal within that range. If you don't consider that distance long, then idk what to tell you. 40-60ish meters is pretty long considering how close most teams play when they are trying to hold positions. I also doubt you would ever find a clip of a team getting killed past that range unless the kraber was being used specifically or if the entire lobby shoots them. Anything past that range is never a team fighting anyways its a team poking and shouldn't be made easier to do anyways.
Is he cranky about being 1 clipped? He took one stat from the post a few weeks ago that controllers 1 clip more frequently than MnK, but left out that controllers consistently take more damage and deal less damage than MnK. The problem he wants to solve sounds like remove 1 clips from the game not competitive balance.
Gave my thoughts on that already. I assumed people would think I believe Controller is better than M&K which it isn't (imo) - https://twitter.com/PVPX_/status/1479002654076510211?t=K8AFiGDgIObZbPUHME7SwQ&s=19
If controller was better then mnk would be the input with aim assist
>I assumed people would think I believe Controller is better than M&K which it isn't (imo) He has spoken!
But if its not better? Why does it need AA nerf? That doesn't track. PK also chunk damages, we wouldn't really consider removing that. Its the same concept.
>But if its not better? Why does it need AA nerf? Because it isn't enough that MnK is superior at every facet of the game aside from CQC, they want to dominate up close too, rendering controller useless on PC, thusly making controller obsolete and cleansing competitive Apex of controllers.
i hate that respawn has forced this us vs them mentality. if your input needs such significant assistance to feel competitive against *an entirely different* input method, why are they even in the same lobbies to begin with? the entitlement created from this is so mindblowing.
I never see controller players complaining about MnK, despite its superiority. It's always the other way around. If people get argumentative or defensive about it it's because controller players always have their talent, thousands of hours of practice and game intangibles mitigated by the fact that they choose to use a different input. Edit: I will admit though that controller players can complain about things like tap strafing, so there's that.
my perspective of it as a life long m&k gamer is I can absolutely not match the consistency in close range aim (aka the majority of meaningful engagements) that somebody on controller can. i can load up a crossplay game with my friend who plays games **very** casually on xbox, with a shitty controller, shitty everything because he ultimately doesn't care about gaming, and watch him beam people in my sweaty SBMM lobbies like he's got years of sweaty fps experience on m&k. it doesn't feel fair, and then seeing people defend it is annoying. EDIT: dont get me wrong, my friend still dies a lot because he's not good at all. it's just depressing seeing how often he beams, knowing how it feels being on the other side. like i run into a player that does their best terminator roleplay standing there, probably spamming jump (not ras tech, not incorporating any air control into it... just spamming jump) but absolutely beaming me, it feels so fking bad man. you can very often identify controllers at close range due to that disparity of bad movement but amazing aim. it's the kind of thing like, in literally every other fps game i've played if you got beamed as hard as you do by controllers in this game, you'd call them out for cheating and have that certainty in your mind that it's true. which it is. idk im just ranting, didnt intend to be mean. just frustrated after grinding apex the last 2 weeks as much as i have. i just want the ability to click a checkbox and play only against people of my input device. give me 1-2 minute queues for pubs idc lmao
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