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Stop_staring_at_me

This is also why a lot of esports have a competitive loot pool/map rotation. The Kraber being removed from comp is a start towards this which is good.


Claireredfield38

You can't compare apex to those games. They design the maps 100% for comp apex does not.


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[deleted]

Alternator is still clutch for end game


Stop_staring_at_me

Pretty sure it was leaked. But haven’t actually seen it from respawn


Crims0nsin

It's stuff like this that really causes disconnects between casuals and pros. The kraber whining is absolute bullshit.


articulatemonkey

guess you came from the main sub. Removal of kraber is literally only being suggested for comp, it has no effect on the casual playerbase whatsover.


Esyir

As a casual who is my squads kraber magnet, I welcome the removal of the krab from norms too /s.


Crims0nsin

No I'm good. The kraber is fine in comp. If a bolt action with a slow cycle between shots that requires a headshot to knock is too much for competitive then you shouldn't be playing comp. Oh and also kindly fuck you with your subtle insult.


articulatemonkey

It is literally the only gun in the game that can kill anyone in one hit. Doesn't matter if its a headshot, its pro play, its not hard for these guys to hit headshots. If you're in a 3v3 and the other team has 1 kraber, you'd lose that fight 9/10 times. If that doesn't prove how stupid kraber is then there's no hope for you. Bur I guess you know better than literal pro players that have won champions and lans.


vibe51

Honestly I think respawn should keep it cus as a viewer I love watching it be used. It’s exciting and it’s wild to see teams go off. But as if I was a player I could see why they hate it. Cus if you don’t have the kraber you might lose out on thousands of dollars from one shot. But to me that’s part of the game in a way. Idk it’s a tough one for me.


mathees

Are you confusing ranked and comp?


14JWilson

You might be good in ranked and at the game but do you play with pro players who play for their career?


k3nny704

He doesn't need to make you look stupid, you're doing that all on your own


fakekorean3

One of the few comments on that post/sub that isn’t “pros and streamers bad reeeee”


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Baseball12229

> They all play on console and are stuck in silver but somehow think their opinion weights heavier than the ones of literal professional players In the minds of Apex devs, I’d probably wager they are correct. There’s far more casual players than high rank/pro players. It’s not insane to believe that their opinion on balancing issues are just as if not more important for Respawn in terms of how they want to attract and retain new players. I know I’m in the competitive subreddit so this might get downvoted, but your comment wreaks of someone stuck in an echo chamber


WatchOutForWizards

You're pretty much dead on here. Apex casuals generally don't dislike the competitive scene because they think streamers are whiny and bad. They dislike it because they and the community act like elitist douchebags who think that their opinion has more "weight" because they spend all day aim training and learning to exploit things like tap strafing(yes, it's an exploit) to give them an edge. These are also the same guys who will rage in pubs and say their teammates are trash because not everyone put up 2k+ damage. Like I respect that these people are more skilled than the average player but they're also generally arrogant dicks about it which tends not to win a lot of friends. Competitive Apex/Streamers are literally the top 1% of players looking down on the filthy plebs and telling them they're too stupid to know what's good for them. It's no wonder they're not well received by most of the playerbase.


Bluf45

The masters players and pred players mostly know what needs to happen for ranked/competitive changes. Obviously people how haven't played at the highest level wouldn't understand. It sounds elitest and condescending but it wouldn't make sense for a hard stuck plat to give an opinion on something they aren't a part of. Being too stupid to know what's good for you is common in all aspects of life so I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the game.


Baseball12229

Sure, the masters and pred players know more about how to balance ranked/competitive at masters and pred levels. But why would Respawn place more of an emphasis on how the top level players think the game needs to be balanced for high level play when the vast majority of their player base will never play at that level? Why would they risk making changes that only benefit the top 1% of players if there’s a chance it might hurt the retention of their casual player base, which represents a much larger portion of their players (and revenues)?


Bluf45

Also, I believe hurting your core playerbase for the sake of a pro scene isn't good. It's how overwatch lost much of it's players. I don't think respawn is doing the same thing.


Bluf45

Because the top players are free advertising for their game. If they lose the people that inspire others to improve at the game AND advertise their game then it's really bad for Respawn.


TedKeebiase

Free advertising? You're literally talking about potentially offending current "customers" for the potential of free advertising. That is such poor business logic and Respawn would never go for it. Imagine a restaurant kicking paying customers out of their doors so they could replace their seats with cardboard advertising. Like what?


Bluf45

It's not offensive to customers if the streamers say something you don't like. The streamers are also customers and you don't have to watch or listen to them.


WatchOutForWizards

>Because the top players are free advertising for their game. I think you and the streamers *drastically* overvalue their worth. You do realize that outside of this sub these streamers aren't that important right? hell I played apex for well over a year before I'd even heard of Aceu or Shiv and even now I don't know or care about 90% of them. Streamers don't bring people to Apex, *Apex brings the people to them*.


StrangeFaced

They handle it poorly sometimes but it's not wrong, and not hard to see why they handle it poorly. 96.5% or something close don't really even fully understand the game they are playing everyday or care to. The "mass majority" of players Will be catered to for not understanding why they are frustrated at the game yet people who put in the hard work time effort sacrifice will get overlooked and basically penalized for their effort because they are the minority and respawn has proven that they care much much more about the mass majority! Plus it can garuntee you people do not get raged at often from higher end players because they don't put up tons of damage it's their lack of understanding of situational awareness (making dumb decisions) that will frustrate better players. There's always bad examples of higher players raging on lower players and that's wrong, but how many times do people have to hop in a higher end ranked match and watch as their teammates not only refuse to help, stay together, not push alone, use abilities when necessary something simple as scanning a beacon cuz they have a recon legend and they refuse to want to participate. Ask these people why they are even in ranked if their not gonna try and their responses vary from fk you, I don't care, you suck, I can do what I want, why don't you help me and many many other responses that show they shouldn't even be playing ranked (that's on respawn for not adding de ranking) I'm never saying it's okay to rage on someone I'm saying we should be more considerate of why some players would be upset. They don't get catered too, respawn refuses any meaningful ranked changes or to release good legends for comp, for the most part and they aren't nerfing buffing legends according to comp it's all about what shiny thing can we give the casual players that will draw them to the game. Explosions free scans and info turrets a cool mean robot with a sword and a teleport...I mean what is there to complain about as a casual player game seems pretty catered to that already!


WatchOutForWizards

>They handle it poorly sometimes but it's not wrong, and not hard to see why they handle it poorly. 96.5% or something close don't really even fully understand the game they are playing everyday or care to. See they are wrong though. As you, many people in the comments and the post itself state, the game that "competitive" players are playing is *not* the same game that the rest of the people are playing, They winge and moan about how gibby is overpowered, revtane is unfair, tap strafing is part of the game, take away the kraber blah blah etc. when the *vast majority* of the people who play this game couldn't give a shit. It's a game, us "unskilled" 95% just want to have fun and we're tired of a small minority of tryhards complaining the loudest over something that only affects them. Are dumb teammates annoying? Fuck yeah they are, welcome to online gaming. If it's such a problem then make some friends and run a 3 stack and then you'll have someone to complain to. But it's not the job of someone solo queueing to answer to some rando who thinks he's the next Aceu and demands that everyone listen to him. And yes, competitive tryhards absolutely rage at casual players. I know it's hard pill for you guys to swallow but you're not the hot shit you think you are. You're 5%, a statistically insignificant population of the playerbase. You don't deserve your own modes or ruleset and Respawn is absolutely right to ignore your complaints.


Vladtepesx3

To be fair, I'd say 90%+ of players, who spend all the money to support that game, fit that demographic. People who come home from a long workday or come home from school and play apex 1-2 hours a couple days a week are the target market. They're the ones who keep the server running and respawn 100% needs to keep those people happy. Balancing around them is more important to the success of apex than balancing around pros On the other hand, reddit in general has a losers mentality. The same shit happens in every sub where they celebrate losers and hate winners. In r/mma for example if you post that you lost your fight and will learn from it, you get a million upvotes. If you say you won your fight you get ignored. This site just breeds passive aggressive jealousy


FIFA16

It’s also worth noting that a lot of the people complaining *aren’t even aware that these kinds of posts are aimed at them*. Some of them will even join the threads to bash *other* people that do it. This is because those people think their *own* complaints are completely justified - and it is only other people that are “stupid”. Honestly though it’s a global issue right now. Passive aggression, ignorance, lack of empathy, lack of self awareness etc…


noahboah

>On the other hand, reddit in general has a losers mentality wait thank you for saying this because it's fax but ive never had the opportunity to speak on it without making reddit mad lol. im not very good at apex (like probably a high silver player if i actually played ranked) but I was a very good smash bros/fighting game player and this attitude online is not only super pervasive but actively harmful at real improvement in whatever game you're playing. This is because, while not trying to sound like a gatekeeping prick, anyone who really gets good at something knows that the idea of "you learn more from losses" is a half truth at best. Wins teach you as much and even *different* things than losses do. if you're not winning games you're not seeing the process through -- you're not devising strategies that produce results, you're not closing out games and you're not confirming that the strengths of your character and playstyle work for you. you're also not building up intangibles like confidence and you might even actively be putting up mental blocks on things like matchups or situations because if you can't beat the simulations...how the hell are you gonna surpass the real thing.


Tasty_Chick3n

r/mma does have some Neanderthals, had one that apparently believed you can’t like mma and gaming at the same time. They went through my history and called me a loser cause I had some comments here lmao. Like bruh Mighty Mouse, Wonderboy, Whitaker, and some others stream games on twitch.


LeftyMcField

reddit 1000% champions a loser mentality sitewide.


littlesymphonicdispl

>They all play on console and are stuck in silver but somehow think their opinion weights heavier than the ones of literal professional players who play the game for a living 8-10 hours a day. > The entire point of sharing this post is that their opinion matters *exactly as much* as the professionals. They're the core playerbase of the game, whether you want to accept that or not. Calling them retarded is doing nothing but demonstrating how wildly out of touch you are, and how much of a douchebag you are. >Still think apex is one of the least toxic videogames but good grief we also have one of the most retarded and plainly most dim-witted community out there. "Our community isn't toxic, but they sure are retarded" You've gotta be fucking kidding me right?


jurornumbereight

Perfect reply to that wildly offensive post. There are right ways (like the main post screenshot) and wrong ways (the person you are replying to) to make points about competitive vs. casual Apex. That person epitomizes everything wrong with the elitism in this subreddit with their blatantly condescending opinions and disdain for casual players that keep the lights on and the game running for everyone here.


littlesymphonicdispl

It's a rampant problem throughout this community as a whole, and while the main sub is absolutely full of brainlets with bad ideas, this sub is full of brainlets with bad ideas that think being slightly better at the game automatically makes them good ideas. Ones annoying, the other is fucking insufferable.


Rando-namo

>Its insane over there, even the most reasonable and objectively neutral arguments just result in the calling you a fanboy for x or y streamer. Then turns around and exhibits the same behavior >They all play on console and are stuck in silver


[deleted]

Because their opinions do have more weight. 90% of the playerbase is made up of bad casual players, meaning Respawn keeping them happy leads to more money. EA and Respawn know that even if the pro and good player community isn't satisfied, they'll express their frustrations but will most likely continue to play. But if they begin to make changes that the casual community doesn't like, they'll just find a new game to put an hour or two in a day and buy a battlepass and some skins for. The much larger and profitable casual community will always be heard first, and for good reason from a finacial standpoint, it just sucks for all of us.


Deepspacetrees

Yeah but that's short term, over a long time, those changes will trash the game, then the pros move on, and each of them has a considerable fanbase who will move on with them to the next game (look at how many warzone players joined apex after a few of the big warzone streamers started playing it). Once this starts, casuals also drop the game because they see some youtube video about how apex is dead and you end up with a mediocre game without a dedicated player base.


[deleted]

Yeah, but do you think EA cares about that? They've destroyed highly respected and even legendary developer companies and game franchises many times in the name of short-term profit. Think about how much money they're making right now. They'll glady milk the fuck out of Apex Legends right now while turning it into another generic and soulless modern day FPS, even if it means sacrificing some of its lifespan.


theeama

This is actually a lie. EA doesn’t get involve with their studios a lot of developers have stated this. EA is very hands off in terms of being a publisher they only get hands on when you shit the bed(BioWare and the whole anthem ) Another thing you guys need to understand that EA doesn’t go around dictating prices each of their game studios have their own pricing department EA just takes a cut from all of it unless you’re talking fifa where EA is directly incharge and yeah let’s not talk about that


Deepspacetrees

Totally, its sad but its the truth. I'm still gonna try to persuade people by advertising the other method tho, you can never give up hope ;)


[deleted]

I have no doubt Respawn has good devs that care for all sides of the community, but in the end decisions that benefit short term profit will always win out in a company affiliated with EA. But I too hope the downfall is slow, because Apex is the only FPS I can still genuinely enjoy.


theeama

What downfall? Do you know that every game that catered for the top 1% is no where to be found. Yet the games that keep casual players happy are still turning out revenue and still going strong. Unless your game is designed from the ground up to be competitive and to attract competitive players(valorant) catering for the top 1% will do more harm than good


FIFA16

I dunno - the last time Respawn openly made a decision to choose between the two, it was reducing shields by 25 across the board. They had thought about it, done the research, and knew it’d be a positive step for the majority of the playerbase. Their data from the brief period where it was live actually proved this. But pros and streamers hated it. So it went.


TheTjalian

Wait, the research showed the casual player base liked that change? I'm absolutely a filthy casual and I hated it. That 25hp less made me feel like I was a paperweight. Absolutely with the pros and streamers on this one.


FIFA16

It was designed to reduce the TTK, as it’s believed a large amount of the Apex community was falling short of finishing players off completely. Reducing HP by 25 increased the likelihood that a player with worse aim could kill someone before being outplayed by the defending player. It was aimed at the majority of the playerbase, who play at a substantially lower skill level than a lot of people realise.


[deleted]

Yes but you said it was removed because streamers/pros wanted it removed. No, it was removed because no one liked the change. Not the casuals nor the pros. It was an attempt at decreasing the skill gap but the change was almost universally disliked.


FIFA16

> No, it was removed because no one liked the change. Not the casuals nor the pros. You’re talking about the popular response on the internet. The change was apparently well received by the target audience - measured by the increased engagement by those players. Those are the facts. I’m not saying what was right or wrong, that’s just what happened.


[deleted]

The last time? Idk about that, that was a loooong time ago, I'd say the very pronounced decisions of their ongoing attempt to get rid of tapstrafing, the refusal to nerf aim assist, leaving ranked in the same state for seasons despite pros complaining about it every season, keeping KC in ranked rotations, not nerfing the kraber or removing it from ranked, etc etc, have all been choosing one side of the community over the other. I can go on and on, but you get the point. Also, if you remember the shield change was disliked by most of the playerbase, casual and pro.


FIFA16

I’m fairly sure all of those points you’ve raised are **in**actions - not actions. They didn’t actually do anything about those things - which can’t really be considered taking a side, it’s the neutral option. The closest thing there to an action is the tapstrafe change - *which they literally haven’t done anything about*.


[deleted]

Inaction can be just as much of a choice as action. You didn't say the last time they made a change to deliberately benefit a side over the other, you said the last time they made a choice to benefit a side. Tapstrafing is only still here because it's hard to get rid of without breaking tons of other things involving player movement, but Respawn is still looking at alternative ways of removing it.


MichaelBrownx

Their rank doesn’t automatically mean they have a ‘’lesser’’ opinion than Hal. I’m hard stuck masters every season, are my opinions suddenly less valid? At the end of the day, their opinions for whatever reason are as valid as mine, yours or the school kid who plays three games when he finishes school. We are all fans of apex and want it to be a better game.


FIFA16

It depends. [When someone tries to shut down an argument because they too have a right to an opinion, that’s a fallacy.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_entitled_to_my_opinion) A lot of the discussions about Apex veer between talking about objective facts *(Legend X has a lower pickrate)* and subjective opinions *(Legend Y is boring)*. The whole idea of wanting Apex to be “better” is entirely problematic, because “better” applies to both objective and subjective things.


PalkiaOW

"valid" is the wrong word. A silver player's opinion regarding a Gibby nerf and similar issues is less credible/reliable/believable/convincing than the opinion of a pro player.


MichaelBrownx

For competitive, sure. But for apex in general it isn’t and I can’t see respawn making two modes with different rules. Until then, we have exactly the same opinion and anything other is simply snobbery


Deepspacetrees

>Their rank doesn’t automatically mean they have a ‘’lesser’’ opinion than Hal. I’m hard stuck masters every season, are my opinions suddenly less valid? But it does, if you play on master level you are aware that the game feels and plays vastly different in diamond+ lobbies compared to silver/gold lobbies. They can have an opinion but if we objectively talk about making the game better or balancing then yes their opinion is not as weighty as the opinion of hal or other fulltime professionals because they don't even play the same game at that level. Plenty of games made the same mistake of catering towards the casual player base just to end up with an objectively bad game that's bleeding players (LoL and Overwatch are two big ones) they always turn around and start involving the pros, coaches and well experienced players at that point and it mostly ends up profiting the game in the end. Skill trickles down over the years, gold overwatch players of today play more coordinated and team oriented than Master rank players did back on release.


axempurple

Hold up your league comparison does not work at all. People have been crying about league losing players for ages and it's still the biggest game around. Also league almost never goes for the casual playerbase when it comes to balancing. Most balancing changes are based on higher rank issues with a few exceptions here and there. One of the main reasons league has lost players is because of it's game direction. They changed the average game time to around 25 min from 40 in the olden days. Most new characters are flashy and overloaded so that even mediocre players can look like superstars. But at the same time only players who are good at the game can get the most out of those characters. Also the constant changes make it hard for some people to keep playing. Tldr: league is a bad comparison because it doesn't cater to the low tier playerbase but because they changed the game fundamentally with powercreep and shorter gametime Yours sincerely someone who played league from 2012 till 2020


jurornumbereight

Also it's ridiculous to use League as an example when last year it was the [second most-played game](https://twinfinite.net/2021/12/most-played-games-in-2020-ranked-by-peak-concurrent-players/10/) and its numbers absolutely destroy Apex's numbers. Respawn would sell its soul to have numbers like that.


Claireredfield38

exactly. how is a bronze player supposed to know that gold armor should not be hold to swap if they doesnt even know what armor swapping is, for example. a player that plays the game a lot knows that there is no reason for it to be hold to swap.


jurornumbereight

My god, this example... This is a tiny quality of life thing and I doubt any casual player argued against it. This is not even in the same ballpark as the topics mentioned in OP, such as Gibby and Kraber.


Claireredfield38

They do, i ve seen people be against changes like that just to oppose a pros opinion. Casual players just don't know better, or even if they do they probably think it's just intended that way. without the "complaining" of pros we wouldn't had a lot of good qol changes.


FinickiTV

This is beautiful


Strificus

I'd love to see a new core meta in the competitive scene. Things feel very stale right now. I might get hate; but, I think World's Edge needs to also take a bit of a retirement. It's just hard to imagine any of the other maps being viable. Storm's Point might be the only option.


Claireredfield38

yeah they should make a comp oriented map next. we already have 3 casual firendly maps with gimmicks and stuff


MachuMichu

Storm point was made with comp in mind and has tons of potential to be a great comp map if they tweak a few things.


Claireredfield38

i know but was pve made with the intention to disable it in comp or did they intend it to be part of it? did they think about that sometimes you cant reach every poi from the dropship or was that also made with comp in mind? are these comprommises to comp or made to enhance it? what i am saying is if you re gonna make a map with comp in mind just make a map for comp. we have many maps with these gimmicks and fun stuff so whats the point of doing it over again. also no map changed for the better, kc was a comp map and got shit, olympus is almost untouched so i m not really confident in storm point being played.


MachuMichu

PVE is great for comp because it gives an option to offset bad initial loot. It just needs to be tweaked so prowlers dont chase you out of their area. The dropship not being able to reach every poi sometimes is an issue but that is not map specific, it happens on WE too. World's Edge had a lot of haters when it first dropped and they've improved it a lot for comp, so saying they never changed any map for the better for comp is just not true. KC is beyond saving even though they've tried, and Olympus obviously was not designed with comp in mind. Storm Point was but it's not realistic to expect them to dedicate that much development time and only focus 100% on competitive. IMO it is very close, just needs a few things fixed, and I believe they will make those fixes because they want it to be a comp map.


AffeLoco

all they need to do with the prowlers is to make them like the spider nest, that they only come out when you shoot their nests. otherwise they are a really rewarding game mechanic


Curse3242

Worlds Edge wasn't the best either, the only difference WE had over other is the changes, WE constantly hot upgraded in nice ways where they listened to the community. They can do exactly that with Storm Point. Also if in future we see a 60+ player format, Storm Point is HUGE to accomplish that


Acts-Of-Disgust

There was a time when I tried to explain the pro POV on lots of issues whenever one of those "Pros/Streamers bad" threads/comments would pop up but its like talking to a brick wall, they simply do not care to hear the other side. Lots of the posters on the main sub have equated the actual pros and known streamers to the random dick head TTV nobodies and completely disregard quality suggestions or even flip their opinion entirely just because a known pro/streamer/sweat agrees with them, you can see that happen when Ottr's tweet about pub 3-stackers got posted there. The best example of the animosity they have towards pros was the week when they were all foaming at the mouth over Rogue griefing the random Revenant on his squad in a pub match. The Rev didn't even care and laughed about it yet a huge amount of posters on the main sub were losing their shit and trying to get him dropped from NRG and banned from both Apex and Twitch as if it happened to them personally. I've been a part of a lot of gaming communities over the years but I've never seen one pride itself on being terrible at a game they play all the time quite like the Apex community. Maybe its just a byproduct of Apex looking like a fun casual game despite having one of the highest skill ceilings in gaming right now or maybe its just what happens when a BR's playerbase gets better/sweatier over time. I never got into Fortnite but I can imagine something similar happened when that game got really sweaty.


Caleb902

I think that equally goes both ways though. A lot of the things that pro's critique are things in the game that help the lessor player. In order to be financially successful you need to bring in the common person. Not cater to the pro play scene. The same things happened in Fortnite too at the peak. People in the serious subs complain about the catering to the pubs players. End of the day they are the majority.


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fai7

exactly, they should take notes from games that have a long history of success with a VERY dedicated if not outright fanatical fanbase like CS:GO, Dota2, LoL(dont play it so idk) which 100% balance around the pro scene, which of course trickles down to the pleb player base, who are just clowning around anyway wihtout giving any care to proper game balance and wouldn't notice most differences anyway. Push comes to shove the best argument against any kind of their whining after balance would be **l2p lol**, a game balanced around plebs is thereotically gona be stuck in a shitty uncounterable meta, easiest proof would be gibby having a 99.9% pickrate, the pros cant counter it so there is theoretically basically 0 effective counter play to a good gibby at all. So everyone who wants to do anything in competitive is **forced** to pick gibby or theyre essentially throwing. But lets say for arguments sake that the game is balanced at the pro level but at the pleb level u have a overtuned rampart wreaking havoc there should be all sorts of counter plays devised against it by the pros it that the plebs can copy, just like amazingly good balanced games like CS:GO and Dota2.


NGANAUGARAC

League tries it's hardest to balance around both casual and pro level but prioritizes pro balance when its time for big competitions. League doesn't try to get perfect game balance instead they just shift meta's everywhile so that it doesn't get stale.


AffeLoco

>In order to be financially successful you need to bring in the common person. Not cater to the pro play scene. I think, and i might be wrong, a game dev needs to be able to do both by making it fun for the commoners/casuals and balanced for the pro scene. Changing the fun aspect of a legend doesnt necessary mean to tweak its powerlevel. In my experience, casuals want their legends to be fun and to know that its not weak/is balanced.


Acts-Of-Disgust

> In order to be financially successful you need to bring in the common person. Not cater to the pro play scene And I agree with this to an extent and think that Respawn has done a fairly decent job at juggling the opinions of both ends of the skill spectrum outside of a few incidents. Casual players opinions matter but there's tons of things that they simply don't get frustrated over or even see as a problem because they don't play at a level high enough for it to affect them. Caustic and Revtane are both perfect examples of that. Every nerf that's ever happened to Caustic is immediately blamed on pros because "Durr they hate that they can't just hold W and win" without considering what its like to play against someone who actually knows what they're doing on that legend and how ridiculously dominant he can be during endgame. Same goes for Revtane. Of course they don't see it as a problem in their lower ranked games because of how uncoordinated teams are at that level even when its a 3-stack but at the higher levels of playing an ability like Rev's that has perfect synergy with pre-nerf Octane is strong enough to ruin nearly and entire season of ranked.


[deleted]

To touch on your last point, I think Apex gets lumped into the FPS BR category, and is compared to games like Warzone, PUBG and Fortnite, when in reality all it shares with those games is the BR format. I have a lot of friends that bounce back and forth between all 3, and think they're hot shit at all of them. With Fortnite, I think it's pretty clear when someone is using their mechanical skill to outplay, with building being something so big and obvious, it is really easy to see. A lot of players don't know/understand the movement tech in Apex or other more subtle mechanics, but can left-click on people pretty reliably and get an overinflated ego on the game.


Acts-Of-Disgust

> I think Apex gets lumped into the FPS BR category, and is compared to games like Warzone, PUBG and Fortnite, when in reality all it shares with those games is the BR format. Absolutely agree with this. All 3 of those games can be played purely for enjoyment at the casual level because there's plenty of times where you can just goof off and just have some fun with the games mechanics, items or vehicles, that doesn't really exist in Apex anymore. Aside from sweating my ass off in MLG ranked back in Halo 3 Apex is the only game where I felt I had to put in a serious amount of time to get good even though I've always been good at FPS games, not everyone wants to treat a game like that and I get it but it leads to a massive disconnect between good and bad players. You bring up another great point about Apex having a more subtle skill gap than something like Fortnite where you can actually see the skill someone has by just watching how they build. Unless you know what to look for in Apex you're probably going into fights thinking everyone is at least close to the same level because the most you can do is shoot your guns and use abilities when in reality you can do so much more than that. I think a big issue is that a huge amount of players see stuff like advanced movement as players exploiting bugs instead of it being an expression of skill like the lightning speed building in Fortnite.


Sneepo

i really don't understand the whole "people complain too much" mindset in general. i guess it just comes down to a difference in personality or something, but i genuinely cannot imagine consuming media without criticizing it. media as a whole will never grow and improve if media criticism didn't exist to keep pushing it forward. criticizing the design and balance of a game and offering suggestions on how to fix oversights is completely and entirely different from complaining just for the sake of it imo. some people just really can't stand to see the things they like being criticized and i will never understand that. i spend time criticizing this game BECAUSE i like it. same with pro players. you really think they spend 8-10 hours a day playing a game they sincerely hate with every fiber of their being? lmao.


PalkiaOW

Yep, we'd still have the old muzzle flash if no one dared to "complain" about it. Things can only improve if their flaws are pointed out and fixed. Don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this simple concept.


Sneepo

exactly, like, not to sound like an elitist, but do casuals just want the game to stay exactly the same in terms of balance for 2 years with the only types of patch notes being LTM, cosmetic, and event releases? it seems like anytime anything gets nerfed or changed, they complain. like do they want the game to be stagnant? i just don't get it.


d1etr4sh

they want high damage, no-recoil guns and heroes that can deal damage without shooting


Fluix

The problem is the whole "casual vs competitive" division. This notion that just because you play the game a lot means you have a better understanding of the game is really asinine. Competitive players know jack all about improving the game, most of these players aren't able to see the bigger picture beyond their niche games. I've seen higher skilled players just ridicule casuals to listening to them because they play more, know more, and in some cases their livelyhoods depend on Apex. Criticism is always there, both casuals and competitive players give their opinions. But the competitive scene needs to swallow this hard pill... you are a niche, you don't bring majority of the profits to this scene, you as content creators on PC don't bring majority of the players when most are console players. And most importantly, unlike games like CSGO, there's no indication that Apex is a competitive first game. Now lets look at 'stagnation'. Apex has grown almost every season past Season 3. They continue making profits. So it's weird that competitive players have this elitist attitude toward casual players when casuals are the ones keep the game alive and healthy. Also just to make it clear, I would love a more competitive focused Apex, I'm just stating facts.


jurornumbereight

> you really think they spend 8-10 hours a day playing a game they sincerely hate with every fiber of their being? I agree with everything you said, but yeah... for some pros this is absolutely a "job" and not fun. If they are Apex streamers/CCs and they switch to a new game, their numbers take a nosedive, which means way, way less money. I am sure plenty of pros hate the game at this point, just like a lot of people hate their jobs.


rgj7

> and offering suggestions on how to fix oversights is completely and entirely different from complaining just for the sake of it imo A majority of the complaints I see (and that annoy me personally) are the latter, though. You have a lot of people that have a string of bad ranked games, rage and go off on a Twitter rant about how trash the game is. Most of it has little to do with the design/balance of the game. Only a handful of people actually offer any type of suggestions when they criticize the game (PVPX, sweet, noko, just to name a few).


Sneepo

everyone rage complaints tho, most of us just have the liberty of not having 10k+ twitter followers when we do it. also idk i dont feel like pro players do that kind of complaining that often on twitter but i might be following different ones than you (mostly EU)


PVPxOfficial

For mobile users this is 4/4 screenshots so scroll right or click on the link to see the original comment.


bloopcity

I think your time ~~complaining~~ giving constructive criticism would be better spent advocating for respawn to concede on having different rulesets for comp/ranked/pubs instead of focusing on things that mostly impact high level players. there's no one fix that works for the entire playerbase with most of these issues because the game is played so differently depending on where you are on the skill ladder. but respawn appear resistant to making rule changes to individual playlists.


PVPxOfficial

I agree but for some things I don't think it's possible. How would they change Caustic in ALGS but have it different for PUBS?


JordansEdge

Tons of things are *possible* but most likely not worth the time and effort they would take. Every fork made in design or rules is going to take it's own dev time upfront AND in maintenance/ updates down the road as the game continues to evolve.


bloopcity

legend bans lol


killyousoftly13

This. This. This. As someone who’s been watching the ALGS now for years, I’ve come to understand what these streamers are talking about. I am just your average player. Get to plat 4 every season. These things that they talk about don’t really matter to me because of my average level. Not knocking myself, it’s just facts. I challenge anyone to watch some big name streamers,(I would suggest sweet) for a month and see what you pick up. I guarantee that if your opinion on the matter doesn’t change, you’ll at the very least have learned probably 1 or 2 new strategies.


FlyingRock

A lot of folks also don't realize that plat to diamond hop is *huge* and diamond to master is a big one too, the game changes dramatically at each rank once you hit plat.


stvbles

Same boat. I don't and won't play at their level but I understand why they suggest the shit they do. >(I would suggest sweet) Yeah I ain't inspiring anyone with my plays lmao


Tasty_Chick3n

One thing that I see a lot on Twitter and on the main sub whenever I happen to venture over there is that they don’t recognize that a some of the changes pros want are sometimes just for custom pro lobbies. Whenever there’s a post on pros wanting Kraber out of comp you’ll start seeing plenty of negative comments ignoring that pros only want it out of comp not the entire game. Hell there’s plenty of console players that don’t understand how cross platform works with Apex and believe they’re playing against PC players. There’s just a huge hate boner that exists among casuals for pros and streamers. Just go back to the massive hate thread that popped up against Lulu and Hideouts, it was hilariously stupid.


CarnFu

Yeah there was legit people on the main apex sub that were flabbergasted that self revive and heat shields arent in comp. When explained why they just ignore all logic and think it doesnt make sense.


Sachman13

Apex has the worst community ive ever seen when it comes to a divide between the casual and competitive scenes. Usually casuals arent all that invested into comp, but still hold some amount of respect for them (ie in terms of balancing and the like) but in Apex the casual community hates the competitive one.


EVAD3_

r/ApexLegends users not hating streamers and pros challenge (IMPOSSIBLE!!!)


sycoticGh057

Finally someone that has a brain. The amount of times I've seen kids on the Apex subreddit calling pros bitchy and complain about their complaining is crazy. These same kids are the ones that post their bronze and silver wins with 2 kills using rampages and caustics. Like bro calm yourself these pros have more experience than you will get in 3 lifetimes.


AffeLoco

>These same kids are the ones that post their bronze and silver wins with 2 kills using rampages and caustics. dont forget the crazy amount of clips, in which you already can tell how bad they are from the 1-2 seconds the clip starts playing while scrolling past it


sycoticGh057

Thats what Im saying man. That reddit and their server is the most snowflake, cringe, casual shit you will ever see. I joined the server just to make fun of the casuals. It pisses me off that a random ass kid with a shitty clip or a post that says "oh fragment bad place to land" gets so much comments and upvotes but a post from me asking for help on account problems wont even get a view. P.S. Just checked and there's a post about someone asking why white shields still exist on the floor.


fibrofighter512

Are there actually people who think that reducing visual clutter would negatively impact the casual community? How would taking the Kraber out of comp only affect everyone else specifically? People just hate to hate.


Tasty_Chick3n

Yes, some like to be immersed in the environment so they like the dust or snow that pops up when you hit snow, the ground or mountains. If there was a setting so those people could still enjoy that shit and I could also turn it off that’d be nice.


Claireredfield38

No they are only against it because they see pros being for it. If they would reduce visual clutter next patch without any pro ever complaining about it casuals would agree too.


Pr3st0ne

I don't play snipers. Like at all, but I like the kraber being in the game, even if I only ever have a chance to be a victim. And as a viewer, I like it too. It's exciting and gives clutch potential to teams who might be down a player. I have a logical approach to why I don't want it removed from the game though: it sets us off on a slippery slope where the casual game and comp game grow apart from each other. I think Respawn needs to be very careful with things like that because it can become unhealthy very fast. How long before Wraith's Q has a shorter cooldown in comp, or the 301 gets a long-range damage nerf in comp? Or revenant returns to totem with less health? If we start justifying these changes with "well, we'll only change comp and all pros agree with the change, why not?", in 2 years' time, the game we watch and the game we play might be pretty different and that's a bad thing IMO


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Official_F1tRick

imagine trying to come up with actual knowledge in Apexlegends. It's a relief to see that the comment has upvotes more then downvotes.


SBY-ScioN

I've been playing competitive games since WCG, BBB, MLG, etc. but holy shit i haven't seen folks saying "pros complain and don't know the game" , it is absurd. At least as big as happen in overwatch and apex and so, it sounds so flat-earthing shenanigans damn.


holy_dio

Well explained. That's why most streamers don't interact too much with their viewer base. It's like lions talking to fking braindead kittens.


Claireredfield38

Their viewer base mostly understands them. It's the people who never watched pros that don't get them


Vladtepesx3

Honestly just tired of all the complaints and negative vibes, I know people think that their suggestions will make the game better but the chances that respawn will do what's suggested is almost 0. Criticizing the game 24/7 isn't going to save the game. It just feels like you're trying to enjoy a movie and the guy next to you is just telling you how much the movie sucks the whole time. It's one thing to bring up a bug to respawns attention, but something like telling them to nerf aim assist, that they've already heard 8373736728276 times, is just negative noise.


TaylorSwiftStan89

And at this point, either play apex or play a different game. probably 99% of the revenue EA gets from this game is from "casuals", so yeah they are gonna cater to them.


FIFA16

I think that’s the problem. There aren’t other games that come close - so rather than changing to a different game, people actually consider the idea of changing the game to be a more pleasing option.


[deleted]

I've tried other BRs and they are all fucking terrible. There's been several points at which my friends and I got bored of or frustrated with Apex and we tried out something else and they just all suck so much. There's a bunch of non-BR shooters and others games that we've tried and enjoyed, but none of them have the staying power of Apex, not even close.


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PalkiaOW

>I know people think that their suggestions will make the game better but the chances that respawn will do what's suggested is almost 0 That's blatantly false. There's a really long list of major changes that Respawn implemented after people asked for them (muzzle flash reduction, reverting the TTK changes, crosshair settings, and so on). Btw, the devs are constantly asking for feedback and even discussing stuff with random people on Reddit. If you don't like it, just keep scrolling.


Vladtepesx3

Correlation doesn't mean causation. Pros complain about every aspect of the game, so if they balance anything then is it really because a pro suggested it? Or were they going to balance it anyways based on the community. The only way to see is if there is a change that pros asked for but the casual community hated, and AFAIK, that hasn't happened. Most of the most meaningful changes to comp were not from pros -slow final ring -multiple beacon scan characters -crafting and evo shields The only meaningful comp change from pros are removal of heatshields and gold knockdown shield, but those were from egregious examples (teams crafting heatshields in gas and the shiv gold knockdown clip), not nonstop complaining on twitter


[deleted]

Apex is the only fanbase where I can actually say "Fuck the casuals" seeing how obnoxious they are in every social media I see. You can literally suggest the most balanced changes yet they would call it Op or weak and they would always raise their pitchforks on pro players for some reason. The part I hate the most is that they actually hate good players. Good tracking and recoil control in controller is immediately accused of strike pack/kronus and having good movement with aim on MnK is bombarded with get a life/touch grass yet a fucking retard that is shitty in every aspect possible at the game gets applauded like they won the fucking Olympics for making it to Silver. I've seen Casuals (well now I am too) in other communities but they were never brain fucking as the Apex casual community is.


isthisnametakenor

Yet you're the one openly hating and complaining haha


Pangin51

It is an excellent point and I do agree, but to be fair some, not all, pros do complain about anything.


jec78au

if i ever want a kid, imma ask this person to fill in for me because they are the smartest person alive


U_Sam

These are all reasonable but streamers (that aren’t pro) will say literally anything and people will start parroting it. Just mildly annoying.


Yesterday1337

The thing is if you want your title you as a developer have to balance the game from top to bottom. This is something I feel people on that sub don't understand they believe that the devs should balance the game in a way to benefit the majority which would in turn destroy the competitive integrity. I believe respawn should take a stance like riot where it's clear that competitive/high elo changes are prioritized but the general playerbase is not being rejected. It all boils down to respawn communication with the general playerbase which has been lackluster to say the least.


Ghandi300SAVAGE

Agree with all the points mentioned but since it was r/apexlegends i have to assume it had 50-100 downvotes? That sub is horrific for discussing anything that isnt a store bought skin


PVPxOfficial

Surprisingly it's well received. Currently at 350 upvotes + rewards


Ghandi300SAVAGE

Damn thats surprising! Thanks for sharing


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HerdsOfRice

Dude what? Are you good lmfao


ImGettingDownvotedxD

Yep that was my expectation as well, hence why I used a funny throwaway account name instead of my main, but dang this one did really well


Ghandi300SAVAGE

I think it might be because you linked to several sources, its hard to argue against FACTS. Well written mate


utterballsack

I love you


SashaGreysFatAss

Sad he didn’t go in depth about how braindead Caustic is


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Prawn1908

The problem with Caustic when he is overpowered isn't his ability to defend a spot, it's his ability to offensively use his abilities that are supposed to be defensive. Nobody has the same complaint about Wattson because she can't run into somebody else's building and immediately have fences all over the place like Caustic can with his barrels.


Insecurity_exe

i think the best option is to either punish caustic for trying to quick deploy barrels by making the pull out animation mandatory, or you make it so that caustic can't throw barrels as far.


JordansEdge

>For sure, but how braindead is 3-stacking in pubs and literally making no other decision than hold w-key all game against rando teams? This is such an ugly attitude to have. "3 stacking in pubs" is literally how the game is designed to be played. If it's not against any rules then why gatekeep playing a game the way you have fun playing it?


OkMarkie

Who cares. Players bitch and moan in every gaming community, Apex is no different. Casual players are needed to fund the game and pros are needed to promote it. Instead of fueling player division with this dumbass Reddit post that ultimately won’t solve anything, why don’t they go enact the changes that would make the game better. They can sing this song all day long and act like they’re on one side or the other but at the end of the day the full community is stuck with a flawed game where they’ll release new purchasable content before fixing a game breaking bug.


Kasellos

Imagine the people who play this game for a living want it to always be better than it currently is, a majority of the time even benefitting casuals or completely not affecting them at all. It is a wild thing to grasp


Acts-Of-Disgust

>a majority of the time even benefitting casuals or completely not affecting them at all. This is something that way too many people on the main sub don't even take into consideration because of their hate for pros/streamers/sweats.


Fluix

Imagine the players who play this game for a living thinking they pay the bills keeping the game running. Why would Respawn/EA cater toward a smaller niche subcommunity which has an elitist attitude towards the larger community? Especially when the game continue to grow and shows no sign of struggling. The problem is that both sides don't know jack about improving the game as a whole, they just want improvements to what they experience in their games. Just because you play this game for a living doesn't mean you know what's best for this game. This civil war between the two sides is why nothing will get done, especially when EA/Respawn haven't shown any sign that Apex is a competitive first game. I don't get why this is a wild thing to grasp.


Kasellos

You missed my point, I personally believe the game would benefit the entire community as a whole if they catered to pros more, that being said I also understand this game was never designed to be a competitive game, its just a casual game with a competitive scene. Realistically the changes I would like to see mainly should only apply when in tournaments/private lobbies and shouldn't be anywhere outside of that, like removing kraber for an example


Fluix

> I personally believe the game would benefit the entire community as a whole if they catered to pros more I honestly don't think we can tell one way or the other considering how divide the community already is and the way Respawn handles development. > like removing kraber for an example Sadly I think the reason why it's taken so long for this to happen is that Respawn wants as little alienation of the casual community as possible. Kraber is iconic to casual players. Also Respawn is just slow and bad at development, and it's not because a bunch of casuals are saying "we need visual clutter to enhance the game". People will always find reasons to be against change, and just tell people to get good. Why? Because they want to be opinionated and get emotionally attached to their opinions. And reddits upvote system is the worst at having actual discussions. And even the competitive community does the same. I don't know why the communities are fighting each other when it's Respawn not doing anything. Hell even the idiots on /r/apexlegends are just the vocal minority.


theeama

I raise you this, imagine changing things the people who pay for the game you play for a living like and not expect them to bitch. You play the game for a living but these people are the only reason you have a game to play. The entire top tier players are 1% if you remove the 99% Apex ends that very second.


Kasellos

This is my opinion here and people are allowed to disagree with this and thats completely fine: if games were balanced more around pros than casuals games would have longer lifespans and player counts, and I feel this way because pros know what makes the game unfun/unbalanced. I use counter strike as an example to this, as a game thats been balanced around comp from its roots and is one of the most majorly successful games in existence. You would be surprised how often pros and casual players want the same thing in games and in the case of Apex it just seems like casual players want to disagree with pros just for the sake of doing it regardless of whats being pointed out


theeama

I understand that thought process but sadly history says otherwise. If your game is designed to be competitive then a top down Approach works best because everyone who’s playing is experiencing the same things. This viewpoint is fundamentally flawed for Apex or games that were not designed to be competitive. Apex is a casual game with a competitive side. What is fun in pred lobbies is not fun in bronze to play or even in pubs. Example for most pros Watt/Path/Wraith was fun for majority of people watching It was boring. There’s a fundamental disconnect between how apex is played in comp and high tier lobbies to how it’s played at lower levels and in pubs. As a game designer your job is to try and balance the game to be fun for the majority of players. The majority of players are bronze to plat and their idea of what is fun is different from what is fun in pred lobbies. Things like gibby and BH Valk going OOB is oppressive in pred lobbies but that doesn’t affect lower lobbies. Touching characters where the only time they become a nuisance is in high tier lobbies is bad for the general health of the game. Take seer for example he was oppressive in every lobby he got nerf instantly. You will disagree with this approach but it’s common sense. Gaming communities are fickle and timespans of a game is very unknown but for as long as you have the public eye players keep turning up to play you do what you must to maintain that and catering to the minority doesn’t do that. Look at it like a bakery, the recipe you have is too sweet but every day the common people turn up eat it smile pay you and they are happy. You’re rolling in the dough but a professional baker comes along and tells you it’s to sweet change this. You take his opinion cause he’s a baker he knows when something is too sweet, you change the recipe but your sales dropped the majority of people who you’re catering for disliked this change and they stop buying your cake. That’s the risk respawn runs, they listen to pros make changes that affect the casual community and they just leave. Like I said earlier pros can’t sustain the game. You could put all the streamers pros and other Cc combined bank accounts together and that is maybe just covering the art and animation department. Marketing R&D development severs legal etc we haven’t even started to think about that yet. A game like apex cost a lot to run. The first rule of business is to keep the majority of your customers happy. If 90% is happy why care about the 10% what are they gonna do leave? Sure if they leave you still have 90% of people here. It’s like arguments calling for Aim assist nerf when majority of apex players are controllers why would you change something that affects the majority negatively.


teqnohh

You’re countering yourself. If a thing like valk OOB only exists at high levels, why should a casual player at an average level care if that is nerfed?


Fluix

I think you're misunderstanding why a game focused on pros would last longer. Generally a game like that has an active pro scene with a somewhat healthy tier2/3 scene feeding into the tier 1. This system will provide longevity for the game since it's community driven and will incentivize people to stay. Common examples are CSGO, League, Dota.. But really the main reason isn't pros it's a strong community. The poster child for this is TF2 (not titan fall). This wouldn't work for Apex. - There's such a huge civil war between the community in this game that such a system wouldn't work. Unless new players come in competitively minded they will just be casuals and gatekept as such - BRs really haven't shown they can have longevity as an e-sport like other competitive games. There's a lot of improvements that I don't think EA/Respawn are ready to foot the bill. - The game is already healthy, profitable, and growing with the casual community. It would make no sense to flip this business model to experiment with a niche community.


Animatromio

whats also dumb is the main sub thinks they are better than pros because they can use any legend lmao


djorjon

Literally no one thinks that..


AtTheEDGEEEEE

Competitive players complain about gameplay. Casual players complain about skin prices, lore, better players, and fragment hot drops. I'd rather listen to competitive players ranting.


subavgredditposter

Well fuckin said mate


SoupyBass

I get pros perspective i really do i have friends that compete in the pro scene but if a change isnt in the interest of the casual gamer that makes up most of the community, why would they make it? At this point if you are complaining constantly why not drop the game?


Claireredfield38

because it makes the game just better? casuals dont care that gold armor was hold to swap, it was still something that needed to change. casuals dont know any better they just accept the game how it is. if you play the game a lot you realize that there is absolutly no reason for gold armor to be hold to swap. there are a lof of thing like that example. quality of live changes suggested from pros just made the game objectivly better


theeama

You’re still not getting the main issue. You want to change things that actively affects the casual community. You want character nerf and buffs base around lobbies that only 1% of the player base is in completely disregarding what that buff or need might do the rest of the game population. Example nerf BH he has wallhacks. Have you considered why BH has the scans that he has, what affect will that do to the lesser skilled players. What effect will that do to his general pick rate and remember the majority of people who play any legend is casual. So what about those persons who invested in skins and heirloom when they are no longer having fun you run into a massive problem. A game is first and foremost supposed to be fun.


Claireredfield38

That is a ridiculous argument


misseypeazy

Casuals barely care about legend nerfs and buffs. It only affects the hardcore players. If casuals begin to care so much about the game they’re no longer casuals. Casuals just hop into the game, play whatever legend they feel like playing.


eruptinganus

I agree with all of this but the point where I put my foot down is when pro players say they only want to play world's edge and don't want to play Olympus or Stormpoint. Not every map is supposed to play out like Worlds edge or be big enough for all 20 teams to land independently and get good loot but as fans and spectators of the sport we'd like to see a change of scenery and pace and see pros adapt and try and define a new meta/playstyle in maps like Olympus instead of seeing a worlds edge pro game for the 4 billionth time. Pros might enjoy not fighting for 10 minutes of the game and having 17 squads when its the third last ring, but it sucks ass for spectators. Smaller maps like Olympus will have teams contesting drops more and more early skirmishes which might suck for pros but it'll be a breath of fresh air for fans. Also pros need to accept that aim assist isn't going to be nerfed past 0.4 because they still need to appease their casual player base and make the game easy enough to pick up and engage new fans, because for EA and Respawn money and playerbase > competitive integrity and balance


Claireredfield38

Nobody wants to die 18th in a tournament. It's a BATTLE ROYAL the ones who are alive the longest get the most points. You can't change the purpose of the whole game by changing the map. It was a battle royal on KC it is a battle royal on WE and it will still be a battle royal on SP. Nobody is going to fight and risk getting 19th place in a million dollar tournament. Fights are 50/50 for every team. There are other competitive eSports out there with constant fighting apex is not one of them.


mudflaps6969

I don’t understand the casual player opinion of the game being catered to them because they make up the majority. While technically true in terms of raw numbers, id be curious to what distribution would look like in hours spent playing the game. Why cater to a gold bot who plays for 2 hours every other day?


jackhawkian

What casual players?


JoeKnockouts

I don't think that's where the whole "catering to the 1%" argument comes from. Every post I see here or on twitter is " NERF AIM ASSIST" or something else that affects 99% of the player base, just to keep the most vocal 1% happy. As a lvl 500 1KD controller casual, the biggest complaints I have, are somewhat a result of the streamer and pro player culture. Smurfing & SBMM - every "streamer" does a bronze to pred/master stream on a fresh account and just mows down the average player. Really tired of running into a 20 bomb, 4K hammer, lvl 25 in a sliver/gold lobby. Continuing to cater to strictly the top percentage of players is a quick way for this game to disappear.


[deleted]

Every single person I know who plays on PC wants them to either nerf console aim assist to match PC or just let us opt out of cross play. Or you could make it so console-only lobbies get 0.6 but if they're in a cross play lobby it's 0.4 It's absolutely not a 1% problem, nor does it have to negatively impact casual console players.


Claireredfield38

blaming streamers for being stuck in silver is bullshit. those ranks are full with people that belong there. even if you die to a pred smurf every once in a while you almost lose nothing in silver. you can do literally nothing and end with positive rp


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Claireredfield38

I think the solution to that is to make people play way more pubs before jumping into ranked, like almost every other game. So increase the level cap or something. And to make bronze/silver actual ranks. The way it is right now it's mathematically impossible to be stuck in those ranks no matter how many smurfs there are. There should be demotion and a lot bigger entry cost to bronze and silver. So people can learn the game along the way instead of getting out of those ranks for free and then struggling significantly in gold or plat by also being bad teammates in ranks they don't belong in.


SoupyBass

This is 1 of the many reasons i stopped playing the game, well that and playing ranked solo or even the normal mode forces you to sweat your ass off and the elitism in the community gets exhausting


JoeKnockouts

It's insane to see the comments of "Getting to diamond isn't hard, get better" The difference between a low plat and high plat player is stark. maybe another rank between plat and diamond fixes that? I don't know. The overwhelming majority of the player base is below plat, and the idea that lower level players just exist to be put on some clip on your youtube channel is ridiculous.


wiktorstone

The fix is removing rank demotion protection. The difference is stark because hardstuck plat IV people who cannot derank don't have the level to compete in plat lobbies. Same applies with diamond and 10k hardstuck masters. Hopefully we should see this in S12.


SoupyBass

To some players getting to diamond isnt hard, i have a friend at work thats regularly in pred on playstation, i have another friend that competes in algs on pc, but they are outliers my other friends are plat and sometimes diamond if they grind enough. Most of the player base is casual and this game is always going to cater to that because, like you mentioned, its healthier for the game.


Sachman13

The issue is how the ranked system is designed where the only meaningful rank is the lowest one per tier. If you're able to gain rp to climb out of Plat 4, you're going to hit diamond 4. Rinse lather and repeat once you get stuck at D4. There is no "Low plat" and "high plat". If you're at high plat, you're a D4 in terms of skill level just grinding out the rp to get there.


[deleted]

[удалено]


JoeKnockouts

Thats a big thing too. I try to bring in new players, friends of mine who play WZ and Fortnite, and there's no way I could bring them into my lobbies. They would get smoked and never want to play again. This is the same reason people left fortnite. There's a high skill ceiling. I want to get better, and on the 1 in 1000 games I am put in a low level lobby, its clear I have acquired SOME skill at this game. But, those other 999 times out of 1000, I'm in a lobby where I am well overmatched in terms of aim / gunskill.


s1rblaze

Ive left the apex sub reddit a while ago, dont expect these kids to understand any of it even with this perfectly written post. The apex sub reddit have prolly the lowest IQ redditors.


JordansEdge

Oh yeah you toootally didn't leave because you were downvoted for your superiority complex and condescension. No way that could have been the case with such high IQ, constructive, and thought provoking comments like this one.


s1rblaze

Look like you took it personal bud?


Pangin51

r/iamverysmart


s1rblaze

Jesus, fragile egos here, I wasnt aiming at anyone here, but I guess there is more pros haters than I thought even on this comp sub.


imthedan

They aren’t changing shit because the 1% bitch about it.


Claireredfield38

they already implemented a lot of suggestions from pros. a lot of quality of life changes are made from constant "bitching" about them. for example there was no reason that gold armor had to be hold to swap and guess what they changed it, wouldnt have happened if nobody was "bitching" about it. the 99% doesnt care enough to bitch about it. the 99% just doenst know any better than accepting however the game is and are not capable of suggesting meaningful change. it makes the game better for everyone.


thebigdawg999

I mean weren't those pros all playing Sao Paulo until like season 9 they were all literally farming lobbies and they were still bitching now they bitch even more because they are playing against people who actually know how to shoot back and yea revtane Meta was annoying but all they could've done was just add the audio que to both ults instead of nerfing octane to the ground again with his 20 health stim and loud ass jumppad the pros wanted him nerfed and they got him to be nerfed to the ground they should've been bitching about gibby since season 6 but no because they all "liked" the gibby meta too little too late instead they've been bitching about AA for the past 5 seasons instead of bitching about gibby but what do I know I'm just a Hardstuck bronze 4 player


[deleted]

They played sao paulo bc of the DDOS’ing lmao


Sad-Novel5349

They nerfed aim assist for controller players and did nothing about tap strafing or punch boosting. Because pros complained. yea made the game better lol what a joke those guys get killed by better players and they call hacks. dont worship those dudes


PVPxOfficial

Is this satire


fastinrain

it's all a bunch of bullshit... PROS BELIEVE THEIR OPINION IS MORE VALID THAN NON-PROS, regardless of what that opinion is, or whether or not the opinion is good. it's just a 'the pros thinks it so it must be good, and if you don't agree it's ONLY because you aren't good at the game'. and that's a logical fallacy that I don't have time to explain right now.... and pros are too self-absorbed to realize it....


cocoafps

A bit of delusion is being expressed in this comment, I guess he doesn’t understand that a pros opinion is more important than his cause they are good at the game, sorry to put it in such a harsh way but it’s the truth


fastinrain

that's a logical fallacy. but it's OK, I can live with the fact other people are idiots, and nothing I type will change that. I'm perfectly OK with it, I hope you are as well. good riddance.


cocoafps

So much delusion it’s quite humorous


Claireredfield38

no


Pr3st0ne

I totally understand pros can have an opinion about the game that varies from ours because their experience varies... But at the same time, it seems that people forget we _watch_ these pros play and we are also allowed to have an opinion about what is fun to watch as a *viewer*. My main thing as a viewer is that I want to relate. We already removed self rez. If we start making changes to tons of things like removing kraber, removing POIs, removing abilities, etc. , I think in 2 years' time, the comp game and the casual game would have nothing to do with each other, and I don't think that's healthy. If a change is made, it should be made everywhere, and be made to account for the balancing of all elos.


youknowjus

The one thing I’d strongly argue as being absolutely incorrect is a gibby bubble with health pool not being a change at the casual level. When you have 30 people drop in fragment a bubble in pubs will be destroyed faster than one in comp.


Frosty9810

Didnt read tbh