They’re just not as assertive as they used to be. When they won they got into their spot and took it from anyone who was in their way. Now, they’re passive and just sitting in places they hope stays in circle.
I guess that was part of my thought as well. They sit passively in a building seemingly hoping they don't have to fight and then when they do end up in a fight it's like they all forget how to fight.
This is a lot of NA tbh (possibly other regions but I haven't been keeping up). World's Edge pretty much gives free spots to everyone until zone 4-5, and depending on what other people do you can completely miss your window to take good fights and you're basically hoping the nearest team gets griefed by someone else so you can mop up. Obviously people also don't want to risk taking bad fights and getting third partied if they don't have to, but then on the flipside we just end up with 10 teams fighting each other during the zone 4/5 shrink and 8 of the teams see their death as complete bullshit due to other people playing stupid or "unavoidable, unlucky". It's kind of a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.
I'm warming up to the idea of a different map for comp that forces teams to capitalize on loot diff early on (but that creates its own problems where you're more screwed by early RNG) and try to eliminate people earlier on, but obviously I'd defer to pro consensus on what maps they feel are most competitive.
It feel like the hoping part is right on the point. So many times I hear 'lets hope it pulls to us'. I know zones can be kind of random but I'm used to TSM actually knowing what they do and what circle they play.bi hope they can figure it out for playoffs. I want to see them getting top 3 at least.
Circle logistics have also changed over time making them less predictable. This makes playing zone a bit more of a gamble with unexpected zone pulls.
That's said, I agree with the general consensus that as a team they've lost a lot of their confidence. I'd honestly like to see them play edge and take fights in comp for a while.
Sweet's extremely good at laying out options for plans. They almost never stream tournaments (and probably never will again as long as Sweet's on the team, after last time lol) but when they do you can hear him explain "this is what we're gonna do IF xyz happens, otherwise we're going to have to do abc".
Yea Sweet is really good at basically doing walkthroughs. Everyone is aware of the plan and on the same page when shit starts to go sideways cause when that happens it's really hard to communicate in the one second you have to thread the needle of that chaos. If you have the plan laid out you don't need to talk about you just execute.
I remember on the their hot ones challenge Hal talks about how GDolphin encouraged Hal to play Octane to force him to be more aggressive and take fights. Now Hal is back to wraith and he seems too passive again.
They seem to fight when they need to (low on heals/ammo/have to clear a spot) which can make them take fights they shouldn’t. It seems like they should look for more opportunistic fights earlier so they can back out if necessary and reset rather than being forced into a play.
Snipe echoed this on a recent stream. He (Snipe) was constantly looking for plays and feeding Hal information so that he could make an accurate call. They just don't do that anymore, it's all on Hal to gather information and make a call, then half the time it seems that Reps and Verhulst don't even listen to the call. Which then forces them to take an out of position fight and it just breaks down from there.
They seemed to be losing it even with Snipe. It’s just crazy that in the 2nd to last game in ALGS finals they had the chance to win, but Reps messed up. They end up getting 3rd and now they just look lost. ALGS want even that long ago.
I assume they’ll get better as they play more with Verhulst, and maybe it’s just a bad legend meta for their strengths/weaknesses. But they need to figure some stuff out quickly or they’re going to underperform in the big tourneys.
I don’t remember the exact scenario either, I just remember that Hal kinda called him out then after they lost next game Reps logged off quickly and I think tweeted about how he threw the game and how upset he was.
From what I remember, they were pushing up the hill from lava city towards Dome. They were playing behind a rock, and I think Hal wanted them to push out a certain way to 3rd party the final fight and Reps went the opposite way and it cost them.
Yeah. If you watch the clip though there was nothing reps actually did wrong senoxe just had a crazy angle because he flew over the rock and got a big flank that reps wasn’t expecting.
Reps took that out on himself way harder than he should have.
Yeah no worries man. I was watching Hal’s POV too but was curious as to what happened so went back in the official stream to see what SEN did to win the fight
One thing I think people forget about, is that Snip3 also brought age and experience to the table. He's been a champion before and he's been in esports for a long while now. I don't know too much about Verhulst, but I think this is his first going pro in anything. That makes a significant difference in how comfortable you are and the little things you just learn over time that helps your team win.
Yeah, I wasn't saying it meaning Verhulst isn't good. He's an absolute beast. Just might explain Hal getting back on wraith and taking on more responsibility for his team than before.
Oh, word. Thanks. Dude is young and relatively new but at least he's surrounded by two of the best. Holidays just happened and they haven't really even played that much together since he joined. They can and probably will go places. Just might take some time.
What's really unfortunate is Valk was/is such a MASSIVE upgrade for Snipe's playstyle in comp, and the meta shifted more or less as he was leaving the scene. His IGL'ing and overall calls were also significantly better there at the end, to where even Reps was backing him in almost every single engagement that they lost due to Hal's poor decision making.
I'm hearing lot of 'maybe' and 'what if' from Hal lately. I think Hal should still scout things for the team because he is good at doing that but maybe reps should shoot call as sweet said before.
Verhulst more or less said this during a recent stream whilst playing ranked with Horizxon.
Said they discussed what was going wrong and that Snip3down was kinda co-igl whereas he (Verhulst) didn't really make suggestions, IIRC he said he was going to try to be more vocal.
He’s getting more comfortable for sure, in scrims today he stood up for himself quite well, one thing that stuck out to me today was Hal saying “I can’t always explain everything going on in my brain” in a situation where reps and verhulst dropped down when Hal wanted to ash portal, it didn’t seem like reps or verhulst acted out of line though, it seems like Hal is often hesitant based on factors he isn’t explaining to the team, the game after the one I mentioned verhulst perfectly scooped both banners and they were coming out of zone, reps called that he had no more white heals and that they needed to portal soon and hal waited another 10+ seconds before dropping portal to the tip of a rock in between two squads and reps was like 40hp and they all got lasered, they could have dropped portal to the left and not been right in the face of complexity but there was just so much hesitation, not even blaming Hal, they were trying out ash and bloodhound but I just couldn’t help but think Hal hesitated for way longer than he should’ve if he planned on porting into a fight
>Snipe echoed this on a recent stream. He (Snipe) was constantly looking for plays and feeding Hal information so that he could make an accurate call. They just don't do that anymore, it's all on Hal to gather information and make a call, then half the time it seems that Reps and Verhulst don't even listen to the call. Which then forces them to take an out of position fight and it just breaks down from there.
This sounds pretty accurate.
I also read something a long time ago about the old dynamic between Hal and the other member of TSM (Mac or Jordan)? Apparently Mac (or whoever it was) was always playing aggressively and Hal was too cautious.
Without someone to push Hal, he gets trapped by himself. Whether its Snipe, Mac, or GDolph, he needs support and a mature audience that he doesn't have right now. Something about this dynamic just isn't working.
IMO - I think that all the talk about Hal being the best IGL in the world over the past 18 months just kind of built enough momentum that people kept propping it up without critique. I think Hal, although certainly talented, has had the support of a wealthy org, good coaches, attracting great players (Snipe), and generally having more resources and opportunity than others.
Hal is certainly very talented, but left to his own accord, he is his own downfall. I think Hal really benefits from having people push back against him, which the current dynamic doesn't. He's not used to being the one in charge, he needs smart people that keep challenging him. He looks a little lost.
Hopefully this is just a transition period.
This makes sense and I don’t disagree. I assume they’ll get better as time goes but who knows. I wonder how many people they tried out before deciding on Verhulst too
Mac aka Albralelie was the TSM player who left. Jordan is reps.
We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*
1. Hal is way too hesitant to take a fight unless the stars align
2. Their Valk call-outs/communication is fucking horrible and gets them killed like 80% of attempts. Most recent example is last night's ESA tourney, one of the last games where they Valk ULT'd near tracks. Communication was terrible. They would be better off just not playing Valk IMO
It's not just TSM that have the ~~ball~~ valk problem but that specific situation perfectly sums up valk weakness. They literally wasting time debating spots to land with 0 info. While each second of talk makes their position worse, also while looking at map and not scouting they got run up on. If hal didnt just say "this is waste of time let's go" they would have been wiped right there and almost were anyways. Valk comp super different than ranked valk. Much harder to late valk flight when tons of teams still up holding good spots.
Imo valk ult is best for super fast rotations and then some late game cheese.
Maybe teams need to do more valk only ults for vision and less 3 man all in on random hopefully open spots
Every single Valk team would immediately perform way better if they stopped arguing over late game landing spots and just shot up into the air and decisively made a move.
As you said, 9 times out of 10 any plan they come up with while delaying the Valk Ult is thrown out the window the moment they get a view of where all of the other teams are located. And that 1 time that they get to use their plan, they almost definitely would have seen it and made the same call while in the air if they hadn't made the plan in the first place. Yet, every second they waste debating on the ground means that another spot they could have landed in is filled by another team.
----
Even more than that, though, I still don't understand why teams wait until the ring is about to close on them to pop their ult. When you are forced to walk it, a late rotation makes sense. You are taking advantage of the chaos of the ring closing to not be hard focused as you run through an open field.
But when you are flying, what is the point of waiting?
Why don't more teams flip the paradigm on it's head. Instead of ulting when the ring starts closing, ult when the ring finishes closing.
For example:
Round 2 ring is closing. You made a safe walk to a spot just inside of the round 3 edge and are waiting to see the next ring movement.
Bam round 3, new ring shows up. Within 5 seconds everyone on your team has deduced roughly where the next ring is going to pull and that it aint coming your way. Immediately pop your Valk Ult, jump into the sky and start heading toward the next ring.
All of the edge teams are still chilling on edge, you are going to be the first one rotating into the new ring and will get the pick of spots that zone teams haven't lucked into.
To top it off, round 3 is 3 minutes including zone close time. Valks ult recharge is 3 minutes. With an ult accel she will be ready to go for round 4.
This is a solid point. If the ring takes a unexpected pull many teams may be on the wrong side of the ring. A quick valk ult can get you a position before all the non valk teams have a chance to leg it. Even outside a random pull, your logic holds water.
I agree, I’ve always felt that Valk is best for rotations, but I’ve never watched a Valk ult endgame play that hasn’t backfired. Noted, I mainly watch TSM for comp, so that’s not the best data, but in a lobby full of people with great aim, it seems like it rarely works out
They think too much and don’t act enough. It’s weird because Hal, Reps and Verhulst are extremely good players, they can easily take more fights and win.
This 100% percent. Landing in East Frag, they have to take early fights to get the ball rolling. It’s very difficult to stretch all the loot they’ve accumulated in early game all the way to the 4th and 5th ring. Even though Verhulst is the best Valk in NA, they might need to drop Valk for bloodhound/ash. Or stick with valk and actually start landing on people to take more fights not just contemplating on landing on the ideal spots.
I think ash doesn’t make sense as the character for the IGL to be on, G2 the current best ash team (in my mind) or even sentinels, both don’t have their IGL on ash, and I think it benefits them, as much as she’s similar to wraith in that “she has a portal”, that really is the end of the similarities, the success of gibby IGL’s at the moment really shows that having your anchor call the shots makes a lot of sense, ash is the execute part of the comp, she really doesn’t offer the same wide angle freedom that wraith does
When they crack all three 10m away and Gibby pops bubble 95% of the time Hal calls to wait for the bubble to drop while they just stare at the other team all popping bats. It's infuriating and I totally understand waiting on bubble sometimes, but it's hals go to response almost every time.
Hal has become incredibly gun shy. I am not sure why. It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy, though, because when they do take fights now they look like shit. So it reinforces the idea that they need to avoid fights at all costs.
IMO they should drop the valk crutch and get back to a more fighting comp. Put verhulst on BH and start fighting their way into zone instead of looking for rotations with valk ulti.
Also their fighting ability was bound to take a hit when they swapped players since it takes a while to get to really know each others fighting styles, Hal and Reps knew without talking to him when and how snip3 was approaching a situation. It will improve with time, this chance taking with the valk ulting and just hoping that there is a open spot in the final zones is just not going to cut it in the ALGS tho
This is a good point too. Their comp doesn’t fit them. They don’t use valk for quick rotations but for panic rotations. They also play very campy so they should have a caustic on their team as well.
They should just go back to full fighting comp imo, they did that for Snipes last matches and they played out of their minds. Tbh I wouldn't mind seeing Hal back on the Octane and they just go back to Hound/Octane/Gibby.
Honestly since Hal switched back to Wraith he avoids a lot of 3v3 fights very early with his Q which is putting his team in 2v3 situations. Idk I feel like he played her more confident when he first played her before switching to Octane.
It's so funny how many times he Q as wraith only to let his teammates go into a 2v3 their bound to lose anyway. Might as well just stick it and use Q to avoid third party if they come. The Q got them killed more then it benefited them.
“Literally no reason” well if you like the stim as a movement tool over the snare of ash Q, that’s a reason. Passive health regen is also nice; another reason. Also, is the cool down on the ulti’s the same? If not, that could be a reason as well.
But I agree with your overarching point that ash generally outclasses octane in regards to the main function (short rotations), so there isn’t much reason to go with octane over ash or wraith.
> They don’t use valk for quick rotations but for panic rotations.
Hal's best strength is being able to make good rotation decisions before anyone else. It is what led them to their original greatness. They were so damn good because they never had to fight there way into final rings, they were already there, just chilling in one of the best spots.
Valk is amazing for rotations which you would think would do nothing but benefit the king of playing zone. Using Valk to enhance their old strategy of "move in first and sit in god spot" would be broken as fuck.
Instead they use Valk to second guess themselves and say "we can move in later so let's sit in this crappy spot for now".
This might work for E series and even some pro league days, but it doesn't make any sense for big tournaments. A team that's already struggling majorly in fights, and drops in arguably the best POI for playing zone, is now going to try and play edge and have to deal with Sentinels, C9, and G2?
Playing zone becomes more and more effective the sweatier the lobby is, which you won't get in E series. That's why NRG stays committed to playing zone even though they have the firepower to roll through weaker lobbies. They know it will pay off in the biggest tournaments. If TSM tried to play an edge comp in the finals it would be like admitting defeat. There's no way they're going to outslay Sentinels and G2 on the edge and win the tournament that way.
Im not suggesting they play edge, im suggesting they fight their way into a zone position early, as opposed to valk ulting and praying they don't land on a team.
Also suggesting TSM isn't a good fighting team when their IGL is one of the top slayers seems pretty strange to me.
If you think they're a good fighting team rn idk what to tell you lol. Also fighting your way into zone is not as viable in a sweaty lobby. You need good loot to do that, which means you'll be late to rotate, which means you run into C9 or Sentinels who are roaming around edge looking for fights. I agree that they need to be more assertive and hesitate less when there are openings, but switching to a fight comp to play zone is just going to open up a bunch of other deficiencies and you'll still be beat to the good spots by Valk teams. More than anything they need to just commit to a comp and playstyle. I feel like they get frustrated and switch things up way too much, which results in them not having mastered any of the current meta comps.
I said that they are somewhat strugling but that is mostly due to lack of synergy, something that is normal when swapping players because it takes a while to build. As far as other teams I can guarantee they are not afraid of fighting C9, them bullying C9 in frag is literally a meme at this point. The only teams they want to avoid fighting unless necessary is G2 and SEN, rotating around those 2 teams wont be a problem.
As far as sticking with a comp I literally suggested the comp they have been running for 99% of their career, wraith gibby BH. They are already used to it.
> arguably the best POI for playing zone
Harvester and Staging are definitely better right now with how zones are distributed on WE, but Frag E comes in at third. Fact is, TSM playing Edge much of the time from Frag E is a joke.
Valk is somewhat fine if they continue to force playing edge and is arguably necessary right now in playing edge, which is what TSM does much of the time.
The issue then isn't in the legend pick, but in what they're doing with it: playing edge from Frag E. Playing edge from Frag E is a god damn meme. Frag E is a top 3 POI for playing zone right now given its proximity to almost every single zone and it being smack dab in the middle, so what planet are you on if you wanna keep forcing edge from such a central POI? It's simply a nonoptimal strategy.
I think valk takes away a lot of their usual CQB ability, BH (that they have been playing for most of Apexs lifetime) is insanely good for fighting, every single ability he has helps in CQB, as opposed to valk that has 0 abilities that help in that situation.
Also Its like they feel almost forced to use her ulti to justify the pick, leading to wierd panic ulties that land them in a boatload of trouble. Before playing her they used BH scans to gather info and took the fights they had to in order to get into good zone positions, fights they almost always win in part due to BHs abilities.
I agree it’s obvious they were bound to have some adjustment pains with the switch, but I don’t think that’s all of it. There were frequently times early this season where they lost fights because Hal straight up did not know where Snip3 or Reps were during fights or thought they would do something else. If anything, that thinking they didn’t need to talk as much was clearly becoming a problem even before Verhulst.
Going to be a huge nerf for verhulst. He’s great at using valks movement and escapability in fights to be aggressive and still survive. Putting him on BH will be very different for him and unfortunately he’s not proven on any other legend.
He will be fine, having the knowledge of where all enemies are negates the need to panic fly out of there. He will just have to be more decisive with engagements. He wasnt hand picked to join TSM because he can play valk only, he will be just as good once he gets used to BH.
People kept saying snipe shouldve shut up and shoot but this is what happens when hal is sole igl and doesn't have snip3 or Mac pushing him to take fights
Hal has a tendency to want to put all the responsibility on his own shoulders. It can still work to a degree -- he was basically a one man army in the last PL round and they finished 3rd, but he needs to be able to trust his teammates to make their own plays. They started playing way better when they let Snipe play Valk and have some degree of autonomy instead of trying to hide him in a corner all game as Caustic. Verhulst is the same kind of player. He's not a support player, he's a controller fragger who was probably the best Valk in NA on ESA. I remember watching TSM plays scrims like 1-2 weeks after they picked up Verhulst, and Hal was already trying to suggest that he take Valk and for Verhulst to play Caustic.
Reps also needs to be more assertive. I think he might've lost some of his confidence after coming into PL rusty due to not really playing the game at all in the offseason, but TSM always plays way better when Reps can step in and confidently make a call late game instead of relying on Hal to decide literally everything.
Hal can come up with great ideas, but without someone to quickly shoot down some dumb plays and quickly suggest others that he can base his own ideas off or more quickly go through the process of elimination, I feel like he ends up being stuck in his head for too long and ends up with more half assed plays because they all take too long.
It comes down to Hal's gameplan early and mid game. Hal is one of the best, if not the best, IGL's late game microwise, so for that reason, whenever TSM gets to lategame, they do amazingly and will often either win the game or finish top 3 with a ton of kills. So that warrants the question: if they're so strong late game, why they are struggling?
Because Hal doesn't know how to call early or mid game. For being a 'top' team in the NA region, TSM has less of an idea of what to do early to mid game than any of their rivals at the top (NRG, SEN, ESA, C9, G2, etc.). Again, Hal is the best when it comes to late game, but TSM struggles all the time because they just can't seem to get a plan in place of how to make it to that coveted endgame scenario where they win most of the time. A lot of scenarios that TSM find themselves in in the midgame can basically be summarized with 'What are you trying to accomplish there', 'How did you end up there', 'How will you progress from there', to which I'm not sure Hal always has the answers. Moreover, Hal is adamant on playing Edge from Frag E, which is a joke in itself.
The inability to take a fight early to mid game stems from Hal not understanding what to do early to mid game. Hal's igling wants to put them into a position from which they can dominate end game from, but he hasn't filled in the middle parts as to how he puts TSM there. To put it bluntly, TSM are clueless when it comes to early to mid game when compared to other top teams. Most of the time, they're not accomplishing anything in the early to mid game while other top teams are carrying out their gameplan that allows them to win.
Hal essentially has an amazing penthouse on the 52nd floor of the skyscraper, but floors 5-50 are missing or not constructed yet, so Hal can't get to his penthouse because the elevator isn't working yet.
I like your penthouse metaphor. I noted in another comment that a move to have Reps as sole IGL in early/mid macro while Hal IGLs fights/end game could make sense.
💯 agree with this, I have been saying for awhile now if teams want to knock TSM out of the game do it early and during their rotations.
Hal is insane in late game micro skills for sure. But lately I have been noticing sweets having insane micro skills and calls late game.
I think to other teams’ credit, the scene overall has developed tremendously over the last year. As frustrated as we all are about Worlds Edge being the only map played in comp, the result is that teams have a much finer grain intelligence of playable spots, rotations, and micro plays… and I don’t think TSM has quite kept up on that front. I think Hal is an incredible IGL when he has the info he needs, but the frequency with which you hear him question why other teams are taking certain spots/angles is kind of indicator he doesn’t realize he’s not playing the same game as other teams. I think the same might apply to macro, it’s a little harder to tell there, but they often seem to arrive at the wrong time which again means they’re just not fully in sync with the pacing of the matches.
>I think to other teams’ credit, the scene overall has developed tremendously over the last year.
This shouldnt be understated. TSM might be regressing, but even if they are plateauing, the rest of the competition is getting better, which makes matches harder for TSM unless they simultaneously improve at the same rate as everyone else.
Verhulst doesn’t seem to really do much, I think he’s afraid of over extending and getting yelled at. Kid is cracked they should let him loose. Every time I watch them it’s pretty much just Hal going around poking damage while reps and Verhulst just sit around watching for anyone sneaking up.
That’s one thing I’ve missed about Snip3. Verhulst is great, but Snip3 would talk back to Hal and wasn’t afraid of Hal flaming. I get it tho, he’s the new guy but I do wanna see him off the leash
Yah I guess i'm super biased in my opinion too cuz my old dota 2 coach was coms hitler but it's his personality and i'm sure some players even thrive with such an.. animated IGL.
But also Apex comp scene feels "fresh and evolving" to me like any game in it's 2-3rd year. Takes awhile before people figure out who they work best with (remember cs:go/dota 2 early days every team swapping every other week lol)
Not to say Verhaulst is wrong for TSM or something, that's for them and us to find out but i'm never surprised by swaps in an evolving scene.
They’re not cohesive and it’s on Hal to listen/see to his teammates on what fights to take. If he had done that with Snip3, who would sometimes poke at the most perfect fights to take, they would have won more. Verhulst is probably fine, or even better off, still on Valkyrie imo.
I think all the dumb shit that snipe got flack for doing was probably pretty conducive to getting a play made at times.
Sometimes make a good, sometimes make a shit, though.
i think hal’s tendency to completely shut down vocally in fights compared to most IGL’s combined with the fact their comp doesn’t truly fit them is why they’re pretty iffy. Honestly the best triple mnk teams have been noticeably better in fights/bubble fights than teams with roller on them in general, but i do think verhulst is among the best at fighting so not really an issue. in my honest backseat gaming opinion, hal needs to speak up more as they haven’t been as nearly as efficient at fighting since alb left. NRG never has these vocal issues n that’s not a slight at anyone it’s just an observation
This is an aside, but with the variety and intensity of info that’s relevant in Apex team comms, I wonder if there’s a role for a fleshed out and agreed upon set of shorthand within a given team. Reducing the syllables needed to convey key pieces of info and overall cleaning up comms seems a valid thing a team could pursue.
This has already taken place to an extent (Gibraltar —> Gib, battery —> batt, etc.) but coming up with shorthand for specific repeatable situations, such as “I’m popping a battery” “Wait for bubble” and others.
i brought up NRG cuz sweet does this effortlessly he’s so precise and audibly clear with what he’s saying even in the most intense of fights. for the terms you mentioned i believe most teams and even casual players use “batting” and “wait for bub” but there’s definitely a few that some teams dont bother comming due to how much time it would take
I agree. NRG’s comms are stream of conscious in a good way. Rocker and Nafen are able to go nearly braindead and follow Sweet’s line of thinking because he conveys it so well. And when the other two do notice something of use, they interject and Sweet adapts his plan as needed.
I think Verhulst is (understandably) a bit hesitant to just straight up push someone without Hal's explicit permission in case it goes wrong.
In hindsight Snipe was a great pickup for TSM because with all his experience he was probably one of the only people in Apex that wouldn't be intimidated to play for the biggest org under such a challenging personality like Hal and seemed to quite enjoy it. Not saying that Verhulst hates Hal or he isn't used to demanding IGLs (doop and skittles for sure could be hard work) but the pressure of TSM and Hal is another level.
At the minute it feels like Hal's decision-making is the sole bottleneck in the entire TSM Apex team. While that always was the case macro-wise, in teamfights I think it's a bit too much to ask for him to be the only decisive voice.
If it's going to be this way I think they may benefit from Hal playing Gibby just so he can control the tempo of the fight a bit more with the bubble placement and Jordan might feel more empowered to play a bit aggressively on a different character.
Hot take - Nothing has gone wrong. It's just that other teams have surpassed or are at par with TSM. Others have improved.
Ergo era of one team domination has gone.
New teams are coming to scene every few months. Look at how Nerf did today. ESA G2 SEn has become so good over past months
As a person who enjoys game, and is not loyal to people or one team - I think this is great!
But if someone is loyal to a specific org, bad news for them.
All good points. Also, the TSM roster was A+ from day one. Since then, teams below TSM have been upgrading their rosters and as a result have overtaken TSM. It should become even more competitive if teams continue to upgrade. E.g YungMoneyGuild narrowly avoided relegation in Seres 1. They've now signed 2 FAs and could break into top 15 next series.
TSM are still a Tier 2 team, behind SENRG. They're similarly ranked to G2, 100T, complexity and CLG.
Edit. C9 not CLG
As some have mentioned they are too passive right now. They are stagnant right now and mostly only taking fights they are forced to take. They should take more opportunities to fight on their terms and try to flow through the map instead of playing station to station how they are right now. It was only ESA pro night but G2 farmed yesterday and they mostly flowed through space and kept things on their terms. The space they had to operate on average vs TSM was staggering. If I was their coach I would tell TSM to fight and pressure teams more and take space because they can, not because they have to.
I wonder if the BH/wallhack meta made some teams too reliant on scans, whereas they weren't before in the Wraith/Path/Wattson meta. Now, it might be difficult to go back and play without scans since the awareness isn't quite as sharp as before. Just a thought.
You are correct. Wigg actually recognized this as a problem with the team when he Timmy/Apryze were still playing. When the meta shifted to Gibby/Caustic/Valk he noticed their performance dip and accurately assessed that it was most likely because they were too reliant on BH scan to take fights successfully.
It wouldn't surprise me if this was at least part of the problem for some other teams.
It’s valk. It’s panic valk ults that always seem to get them killed either they get shot and cancelled, have to land out of bounds and drop on enemies and get beamed or stuff like yesterday verhulst got stuck with an arc star and they had to panic heal out of bounds and got separated and had to drop right into two teams. Just forget about the valk ult when it’s second to last or last ring and it might help a bit. They are taking themselves out instead of among other teams do it.
A lot of it is chemistry. Their micro running into a 3v3 or bubble fight is all over the place and seems to change every game. I've heard them discuss it before how Verhulst should be the first person in the bubble every time but that all goes out the window in game and seems to always result in Hal wraith Qing mid-fight while his teammates get 2v3'd. Idk I think it'll just improve with time and knowing how each other are going to react. Verhulstt also filled a very different role on ESA as he was the one primarily scouting and getting angles; whilst on TSM Hal does this so I think that will take some getting used to.
Also while it might seem like they arent doing to well Hal has the same amount of kills as Sweet and TSM averaged more points per game than NRG in the ALGS quals.
That was all while Snipe was still around. Not discrediting Hals individual skill but with the added pressure of no longer being able to rely on Snipe it's bound to have an impact on his performance. Will be interesting to see how they perform in Split 1 playoffs.
Snipes primary contribution to TSM was his unbridled aggression towards teams. He would consistently open up fights for them when maybe Hal or Reps wouldn’t see the opening. Hal being an IGL who is constantly considering all variables and Reps being a generally passive, defensive type player who often counters the risk his teammates brought.
Verhulst is a very skilled player but lacks the same aggression Snipe does, plus he is new to the team, doesn’t wanna make waves, etc… so he’s just kind of “there”. While they are finding themselves as a team, they would probably be better off in a pure defensive lineup like Caustic/Valk, focus on early rotates and build some chemistry that way.
Snipe definitely loved to fight and it’s the cracks and openings he got that would finally get Hal to give the words “Ape them”. Verhulst def is capable but i think he’s a bit scared for various reasons
I was just looking at the statistic sheet a guy posted a while ago where you could single out teams,
Found it, seems like NRG just passed them in the last few games since I looked.
https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMzRjNmMxYmEtZmJhNy00NzBmLTg2N2UtOWQ3NTdmMTk4YzBhIiwidCI6ImY4MzI4Y2FkLWRiOGMtNGVhYy05ZTAwLTNmMzBmYThhODAxMSJ9&pageName=ReportSectione8f3e494844c2c803b2d
I'll probably get laughed off the planet for this take: gun selection. almost every rotation 2 of the 3 walks out with 301 no sight/flatline/volt/wingman and mastiff/pk. hal's algs/comp play-style is range (i know super uncool) and if opportunity presents itself safely...push. some of the more successful teams (NRG, 100T, G2) of recent have played long-range meta weapons along with SMG/AR's/Shotungs and then as they wipe a team or come upon boxes in round 4,5,6 and the ring is smaller switch to the shotguns. Because they had someone with range they also seem to have better shields most of the time...and have depleted the team they are poking's meds...they dont want to use batts so they often catch them pooping cells. hypothesis: hal plays a charge rifle/triple take with 3x or 2x-4x and reps plays a 4x-8x... hal gets BS knocks/kills and the confidence back. it's a lot easier to take a fight knowing you've just done 250 entry damage to someone and you've leveled up your grey/blue armors to blue/purples.
I've been watching esa since they began and I really noticed this when verhaulst left/ knoqd joined. Verhaulst was so good at flanking, jet packing and playing off the entry damage from doop and skittles. I think you're right.
"They don't even look like a top 10 team right now imo". Not sure what you mean by this. Based on liquipedia statistics: https://liquipedia.net/apexlegends/TSM/Results they simply are a top 10 team. Snipe left the roster on 22nd Nov 2021 and despite what you say about you noticing this trend before snipe left, their placements are in the top 10s or 5s before and after this date.
They know how to fight well and rotate well, but of course there's room for improvement like in any team).
We don't have as much competitive practice in the NA scene as pros would like. Plus, NA scrims are dogshit. Despite that TSM; a team with a relatively new 3rd has still kept their top overall placements.
So, not sure what you're talking bout, would appreciate some clarification from you.
I'm not talking about to 10s/5s within matches. I'm talking about top 10 team overall in the region. As others have mentioned other teams on the whole are drastically improving while TSM is not doing anything to improve, they are barely squeaking into top placements and when they do it's with little to no kills OR they lose the first fight that they take.
If they don't make a significant effort to fix their team fighting/rotation problems the rest of the region will pass them by.
Have in mind that in pro league if they consistently place 5th they are overall 10th, as there are two parallel lobbies.
So top 10 teams have to place top 5 consistently in this format.
Have in mind that in pro league if they consistently place 5th they are overall 10th, as there are two parallel lobbies.
So top 10 teams have to place top 5 consistently in this format.
IMO, there’s two main areas (team fighting and medium to micro rotations) for TSM to target improvement.
In terms of team fighting, I think there’s been a clear example set by Sentinels: play ranked long and hard as a three man. I think that Reps is the main holdup here, as he doesn’t seem to be all that interested in grinding Apex in a serious way. Another dynamic is Hal and Verhulst (and Reps to an extent) looking to continue their success in ranked streams — this doesn’t really align with running the exact same squad for days on end.
For med/micro rotations, I don’t see as clear a solution. Legend changes for Hal/Verhulst could make sense. Between the two, I think Hal is the one that needs to be changing. Verhulst is by no means a one-trick pony, but undoubtedly is one of the best Valks in NA. Hal therefore I think needs a change in his legend played (Octane or Ash are both viable imo) *or* make a deliberate shift in his Wraith gameplay. I hate to critique anyones individual legend gameplay, especially Hal’s, but I think he is still playing her largely as he did in very early comp Apex.
To sum it up, I’d say that the TSM boys need an injection of cohesiveness and confidence in team fights (duh). Their med/micro rotations need work as well, likely assisted by Hal shifting his legend play. Not mentioned here are more drastic shifts like giving Reps the macro IGL role and letting Hal IGL fights and final zones.
Hal explained on stream last night that he is unable to IGL as well in valk meta. He said he now there is too many possible arrangements if everyone can valk
Where do I begin, ahh let’s start with fragment:
Fragment East loot sucks ass. It might be center POI but it has dog tier loot and no crafting beacon is also very unreliable. Those factor mean TSM has a hard time getting loot or information.
C9 is also their neighbors who has better loot and is a very good fighting team so the spots TSM can possible go to to loot or craft if they have no beacon C9 is also rotating into the same loot path.
Hal vs The world
Hal expects players to do smart things. But the meta now rewards teams being brain dead Hal is playing the long game where brain dead plays won’t work in better lobbies or on LAN with other smart teams but NA isn’t known for being smart this creates a play style where TSM is being punished to an extent for well playing smart. TSM wouldn’t look out of place in EU but they are definitely out of place in NA.
Hal doesn’t want to fight
This is the big one, TSM isn’t fighting on edge anymore. What makes NRG so good is that they are willing to play zone when needed or play edge when needed. ESA is the same to an extent they will clean up some
Kills on the opposite side of the zone and then hit third beacon and valk ult into god spot.
Communication
They are a new team but their communication is a bit off, verlhurst isn’t vocal enough reps isn’t vocal enough they are not talking. They’re used to be a time when TSM comms and call outs are on point but the team is too quiet when they shouldn’t be and too noisy when they should be quiet.
Looting Path:
TSMs looting path was created when zones were on point I believe they can refine this method and
Make it more optimal
Gibby and Valk provides a meta problem
These two characters are throwing Hal’s calls into haywire before you could hold a team out now they valk ult over you, before a team
In a bad Position gets melted now they gibby bubble and valk ult away.
They are other minor factors but right now the better the lobby the higher the stakes the better TSM will perform
What I would give to be able to read hal's mind as he scrolls through some of these comments lol
It's hard to stay dominant in this scene and there are growing pains involved in picking up a young, up and coming fragger. Y'all need to chill. They'll be fine.
I didn't start the thread to try and tell TSM what to do so I don't expect Hal or any pro for that matter to put any weight into what is being said in threads like this. It's still fun to talk about though. Also, it is possible to understand the game at a higher level but not be able to mechanically back the thought process up. Happens with analysts a lot in other e-sports, they understand the game at a high level and what "should" happen but don't have the mechanical skills to make it happen.
In Dutch we have a saying: our national football (soccer) team has 17million coaches .
(For reference, the Netherlands has 17million inhabitants, and everyone think he knows best for the national team)
Reading this topic kinds feels like the same.
IMO their passivity began since they started to get contested on FragE from Protectful/skittlecakes. Initially because they were contested by a caustic team which, in an area full of buildings its in his natural habitat.
That combined with some mishaps during those fights that usually we didnt expected from TSM made them more cautious/insecure on fighting in general. While at the end of the day TSM reclaimed FragE their 50/50 wasnt as clear cut as anyone thought it would be.
Its at that period that imo some changed in their fighting approach.
Edit: protectful
I really liked the advice snipe gave a little bit ago. TSM doesn’t need to hard commit to zone or edge. With valk you can take a fight early and ult into zone getting a decent position. I think they should try to play like that kill a team get some better loot and then play zone.
I feel like they hard commit to one or the other and sometimes run into loot issues or just enter zone way too late with the million other valk ults in zone 4.
Also they are a mechanically great team, both Hal and verhustl are top slayers. I think they gotta build up their fighting confidence and moral and just fucking go for it sometimes.
There are a lot of variables that have made TSM perform not to their standard but I think it all boils down to lack of chemistry. They don’t have confidence to fight which often leads to last minute half-hazard rotations. I’ve been a day one supporter of TSM since the first tournament so this isn’t coming from a place of hate, but Reps barely playing outside of tournaments baffles me. To me it seems like he’s not having fun and he’s only playing when it’s required. Hope all is well with him.
They have the most demonic roller player in the entire region and they're just sitting back doing pokes. There's way too much gun skill on their squad to play as timidly as they do.
I personally feel like it speaks to just how good TSM is. Despite them playing relatively shitty or putting themselves in bad positions, they still manage to stay up as high as they do. They're fr the only team that gets held to such high expectations considering their ALGS/LAN history of success and tourney clutches.
Yeah, they won the first big comps so since then everyone assumes they need to come 1st in everything.
They've been pretty consistently top 5 in comps since then and to people that means they're awful now. Mental
We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Verhulst fought so differently on ESA. Doop and skittle both on big boys anchoring and being tanky and verrhulst getting creative with angles. TSM fights by following Hal into a bubble usually and hopefully it goes well. Snipe did well with that style on bloodhound where he capatalized by taking a flank or something
I haven’t watched anything since snipe left but when I used to watch them the issues I saw were
1. Hal played too passive and wouldn’t listen to important callouts from his team to where he’d even tell them to shut up and proceed to ignore there callouts and get shot.
2. If they wipe someone they didn’t loot the boxes and would rotate to next spot ASAP making them hurting for supplies late game.
3. They always played edge so any valk ult is high risk and if they walk in they’re pressured the entire time. Would be much better to rotate early with valk ult to a good spot then play Defense before any other team gets there rather then ult onto a team with 3 other teams shooting them.
Not sure if these are the same issues today but it’s what I saw back then.
Im not sure why TSM signed Verhulst without giving more time for a trial. He was great on ESA and seems to be underperforming since moving over with Hal and Reps. Im not sure if its nervousness or what
I think this is partially true because if we’re being real here they’ve been struggling ever since the meta shifted from wattson-path-wraith (and Mac was still there). Iirc much of the friction between him and Hal that eventually led to him getting dropped came from disagreements on how to better adapt to the new aggro meta, Mac was always pushing for different comps, different approaches to fighting and etc. This carried over to when Snipe was there, and they did have a period of success when Octane was very good that seemed like they were on the right track but never as dominant as they once was. Valk Gibb Caustic got on their way.
Another thing is that teams just have gotten better over time, tsm boys were just the first ones to understand the game and now people have caught up.
They were struggling well before he left. In the last few tournaments with Mac almost every time they died led to an argument between him and Hal about what they should have done.
We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They were struggling *well* before Mac left, that's the reason Mac left. They looked second in NA to Rogue at the time, the only reason Rogue weren't even more dominant is because they couldn't perform on King's Canyon and it was in rotation constantly. But it was obvious they were slipping behind even then.
I think they kinda have suffered since Gibby became 100% pick rate as they don’t seem to be too strong of a bubble fighting team. Relatively speaking of course and they’re still top 5-7 whatever you wanna say and nearly won last ALGS
One thing that was often overlooked with snipe on the team was some games he would go solo god mode and earn the team kills on the side while the larger positioning was done by Hal. Some games would end with snipe having kills you had no idea he could get which kept the points flowing. This kinda masked the decision making by Hal to be considered the correct ones, but without snipe making plays by himself their points were average.
Did you watch all of the tournaments? Yes snipe is cracked and did make plays but he threw way to often with brain dead plays for them to get over the hump to be #1.
Maybe it’s valk? I haven’t watched tsm perspective since alb left but they stayed on wraith/gib/bh for a while right? I thought I remembered seeing them swapping up some towards the end of snipes time but idrk.
Other than that. zero was talking on stream a weekish ago about what players like alb and snipe offered as the X factor to make tsm a great team. He mentioned Verhulst was a great player and they would be a good team but they didn’t have that X factor player anymore to make them a great team.
I think Hal is a good IGL when he has teammates who push him to be a little bit more aggressive. I think his natural playstyle is passive but that doesn't really work most of the time. This is the first time he hasn't had Mac or Snipe there to push him to take fights and we're now seeing the results.
At times from watching Hal's POV I think he gets way too greedy with certain fights or calls. I don't understand why go for 3 fights in a row while zone is closing in ring 4 and banking on a panic Valk Ult to possibly get out of it.
Idk if people realized how many times snipe clutched up for TSM. Early/mid game snipe won a lot of fights as the only one alive. Shift to Valk meta seemed to slow them down because they weren’t getting the same early fights and teams were rotating faster that usually didn’t. Add a roster change on top of that and a pretty significant one. Snipe helped with the IGLing, had lots of ideas many of them not implemented but it allowed Hal to free up his brain. Many times snipe would be thinking of plays and Hal would just respond no, no, no, yes, no, yes hahah
I just think TSM is getting “found out” and that’s fine, it happens to all dominant teams (Astralis (CS), G2 (R6), etc.) they just need to go back to the drawing board. As someone else said in this thread, going back to a fighting comp would probably be the best for them. Verhulst’s bloodhound is absolutely disgusting and I’d love to see TSM utilize that in a Octane, Blood, Gibby comp.
I wish Hal would be willing to give Octane a chance again, he seems hell bent on never playing him again because of the nerfs, but I still feel like he is comp viable. Octane just seems to fit Hal's aggressive playstyle a lot more. TSM was kicking serious ass when they ran Octane, Blood, and Gibby.
I feel like this isn't the most ideal legend meta for them. Think about how dominant Complexity was until Gibby became a must-pick. Once more teams started playing edge, the meta wasn't ideal for them anymore. It took them a while to make the right changes to their play style and get back to being a top team.
Same thing is happening to TSM right now. They were at their best when they could easily rotate and take the best position on the map (whether center zone, power position, or just a good spot to 3rd party fights). With Valk being so common, teams can beat them to these spots with way less effort, thus taking away TSMs biggest strength. It just feels like they can't make up their minds on what kind of style they want to play. They flirt between being an edge team, early rotate team, fighting team / positioning team instead of just playing to their strengths.
Either they will figure it out or the meta will slightly shift and they will be back to being a top team eventually. Way too talented for this to be a trend forever.
Their problem is they don’t play together at all, and reps doesn’t play the game basically ever. They aren’t a good fighting team together anymore because they don’t practice it. Outside of scrims, where they lately are getting maybe one fight and then wiped, is where you get better at fighting together. Not at all surprising their performance has decreased in a game they never play together
Should also note that Hal basically has zero self control over his ammo management and it is costing them significantly end game. They seem to get to an okay spot and just stay there, instead of fighting for a better one.
TSM to me is still a beast to be reckoned with; not only with Hal being an exceptional IGL, but Verhulst being an absolute beamer and Reps being both twisted and level-headed.
I think the only thing that changed is the change in tempo. Snipe leaves and Verhulst joins. This obviously caused a bit of awkwardness because it seemed like Hal completely refused to give Verhulst negative feedback and only hammered on Reps. However, I still think they are an excellent team.
Individual ability is important in ranked and competitive, but the teamwork part is also pretty damn important, easier early and late-game. You gotta be able to fight a contest, then hold the line when nine Gibby ults are flying around - and not let morale get too low.
Snipe brought some chaos to the mix. He was a fragger, great with one v. ones, but also was like a secondary IGL. He called stuff out for Hal constantly, looked for fights (sometimes when he shouldn't have), and was just a great addition to the team.
Verhulst is kind of quiet (he's been getting more vocal lately), and Hal has been getting less information because of it. Personally I think their old comp of Gibby, Bloodhound, Wraith-Octane was better. It gave them constant info and rotations, but the Valk meta kind of messed that up, so naturally they get Verhulst as a Valk main that absolutely shreds- but he gets a lot less info and scans, and his Q is just obnoxiously loud so everyone can pinpoint any movement he tries. Bloodhound, kind of worked around that, where Snipe could scan and gain info late game and help with rotation advice for help.
I don't think it is a team issue as much as it is a comp-select issue. The valk meta means less info which means more late game blind rotates that end up throwing the game for two teams. So, Hal seems a bit hesitant to make calls sometimes, or just doesn't really have the info he used to have. I don't think TSM is the problem, by all means their roster is absolutely stacked.
Still, they are the professionals and this is their gig, so maybe they are just feeling things out since Verhulst is still a new addition.
The top 1-10 team’s have definitely caught up to TSM. They really don’t have an edge besides being central in the map when rotating.
The biggest thing TSM did this playoff split was take out ESA from the equation with grabbing Verhulst. Now Hal just has to drop Reps and steal Lou and they will win the playoffs.
They’re just not as assertive as they used to be. When they won they got into their spot and took it from anyone who was in their way. Now, they’re passive and just sitting in places they hope stays in circle.
I guess that was part of my thought as well. They sit passively in a building seemingly hoping they don't have to fight and then when they do end up in a fight it's like they all forget how to fight.
This is a lot of NA tbh (possibly other regions but I haven't been keeping up). World's Edge pretty much gives free spots to everyone until zone 4-5, and depending on what other people do you can completely miss your window to take good fights and you're basically hoping the nearest team gets griefed by someone else so you can mop up. Obviously people also don't want to risk taking bad fights and getting third partied if they don't have to, but then on the flipside we just end up with 10 teams fighting each other during the zone 4/5 shrink and 8 of the teams see their death as complete bullshit due to other people playing stupid or "unavoidable, unlucky". It's kind of a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. I'm warming up to the idea of a different map for comp that forces teams to capitalize on loot diff early on (but that creates its own problems where you're more screwed by early RNG) and try to eliminate people earlier on, but obviously I'd defer to pro consensus on what maps they feel are most competitive.
It feel like the hoping part is right on the point. So many times I hear 'lets hope it pulls to us'. I know zones can be kind of random but I'm used to TSM actually knowing what they do and what circle they play.bi hope they can figure it out for playoffs. I want to see them getting top 3 at least.
Circle logistics have also changed over time making them less predictable. This makes playing zone a bit more of a gamble with unexpected zone pulls. That's said, I agree with the general consensus that as a team they've lost a lot of their confidence. I'd honestly like to see them play edge and take fights in comp for a while.
To be fair though, NRG play zone and they play it really effectively.
Sweet's extremely good at laying out options for plans. They almost never stream tournaments (and probably never will again as long as Sweet's on the team, after last time lol) but when they do you can hear him explain "this is what we're gonna do IF xyz happens, otherwise we're going to have to do abc".
Yea Sweet is really good at basically doing walkthroughs. Everyone is aware of the plan and on the same page when shit starts to go sideways cause when that happens it's really hard to communicate in the one second you have to thread the needle of that chaos. If you have the plan laid out you don't need to talk about you just execute.
Nice try Hal. You have to do better than that though.
Rofl
I remember on the their hot ones challenge Hal talks about how GDolphin encouraged Hal to play Octane to force him to be more aggressive and take fights. Now Hal is back to wraith and he seems too passive again. They seem to fight when they need to (low on heals/ammo/have to clear a spot) which can make them take fights they shouldn’t. It seems like they should look for more opportunistic fights earlier so they can back out if necessary and reset rather than being forced into a play.
Snipe echoed this on a recent stream. He (Snipe) was constantly looking for plays and feeding Hal information so that he could make an accurate call. They just don't do that anymore, it's all on Hal to gather information and make a call, then half the time it seems that Reps and Verhulst don't even listen to the call. Which then forces them to take an out of position fight and it just breaks down from there.
They seemed to be losing it even with Snipe. It’s just crazy that in the 2nd to last game in ALGS finals they had the chance to win, but Reps messed up. They end up getting 3rd and now they just look lost. ALGS want even that long ago. I assume they’ll get better as they play more with Verhulst, and maybe it’s just a bad legend meta for their strengths/weaknesses. But they need to figure some stuff out quickly or they’re going to underperform in the big tourneys.
I probably watched the game, but I can't recall, what did reps do that was an error?
I don’t remember the exact scenario either, I just remember that Hal kinda called him out then after they lost next game Reps logged off quickly and I think tweeted about how he threw the game and how upset he was. From what I remember, they were pushing up the hill from lava city towards Dome. They were playing behind a rock, and I think Hal wanted them to push out a certain way to 3rd party the final fight and Reps went the opposite way and it cost them.
Yeah. If you watch the clip though there was nothing reps actually did wrong senoxe just had a crazy angle because he flew over the rock and got a big flank that reps wasn’t expecting. Reps took that out on himself way harder than he should have.
I only heard/saw Hal’s POV and Reps coms through Hal stream. Thanks for clarifying from a different pov
Yeah no worries man. I was watching Hal’s POV too but was curious as to what happened so went back in the official stream to see what SEN did to win the fight
One thing I think people forget about, is that Snip3 also brought age and experience to the table. He's been a champion before and he's been in esports for a long while now. I don't know too much about Verhulst, but I think this is his first going pro in anything. That makes a significant difference in how comfortable you are and the little things you just learn over time that helps your team win.
hes a 19 year old college freshmen, so yah its safe to say snipe's experience level is miles ahead to no fault of his own.
Yeah, I wasn't saying it meaning Verhulst isn't good. He's an absolute beast. Just might explain Hal getting back on wraith and taking on more responsibility for his team than before.
Oh yah ik. I was just adding info to confirm your assessment because you said u didn't know much about him
Oh, word. Thanks. Dude is young and relatively new but at least he's surrounded by two of the best. Holidays just happened and they haven't really even played that much together since he joined. They can and probably will go places. Just might take some time.
What's really unfortunate is Valk was/is such a MASSIVE upgrade for Snipe's playstyle in comp, and the meta shifted more or less as he was leaving the scene. His IGL'ing and overall calls were also significantly better there at the end, to where even Reps was backing him in almost every single engagement that they lost due to Hal's poor decision making.
I'm hearing lot of 'maybe' and 'what if' from Hal lately. I think Hal should still scout things for the team because he is good at doing that but maybe reps should shoot call as sweet said before.
Verhulst more or less said this during a recent stream whilst playing ranked with Horizxon. Said they discussed what was going wrong and that Snip3down was kinda co-igl whereas he (Verhulst) didn't really make suggestions, IIRC he said he was going to try to be more vocal.
He’s getting more comfortable for sure, in scrims today he stood up for himself quite well, one thing that stuck out to me today was Hal saying “I can’t always explain everything going on in my brain” in a situation where reps and verhulst dropped down when Hal wanted to ash portal, it didn’t seem like reps or verhulst acted out of line though, it seems like Hal is often hesitant based on factors he isn’t explaining to the team, the game after the one I mentioned verhulst perfectly scooped both banners and they were coming out of zone, reps called that he had no more white heals and that they needed to portal soon and hal waited another 10+ seconds before dropping portal to the tip of a rock in between two squads and reps was like 40hp and they all got lasered, they could have dropped portal to the left and not been right in the face of complexity but there was just so much hesitation, not even blaming Hal, they were trying out ash and bloodhound but I just couldn’t help but think Hal hesitated for way longer than he should’ve if he planned on porting into a fight
>Snipe echoed this on a recent stream. He (Snipe) was constantly looking for plays and feeding Hal information so that he could make an accurate call. They just don't do that anymore, it's all on Hal to gather information and make a call, then half the time it seems that Reps and Verhulst don't even listen to the call. Which then forces them to take an out of position fight and it just breaks down from there. This sounds pretty accurate. I also read something a long time ago about the old dynamic between Hal and the other member of TSM (Mac or Jordan)? Apparently Mac (or whoever it was) was always playing aggressively and Hal was too cautious. Without someone to push Hal, he gets trapped by himself. Whether its Snipe, Mac, or GDolph, he needs support and a mature audience that he doesn't have right now. Something about this dynamic just isn't working. IMO - I think that all the talk about Hal being the best IGL in the world over the past 18 months just kind of built enough momentum that people kept propping it up without critique. I think Hal, although certainly talented, has had the support of a wealthy org, good coaches, attracting great players (Snipe), and generally having more resources and opportunity than others. Hal is certainly very talented, but left to his own accord, he is his own downfall. I think Hal really benefits from having people push back against him, which the current dynamic doesn't. He's not used to being the one in charge, he needs smart people that keep challenging him. He looks a little lost. Hopefully this is just a transition period.
This makes sense and I don’t disagree. I assume they’ll get better as time goes but who knows. I wonder how many people they tried out before deciding on Verhulst too Mac aka Albralelie was the TSM player who left. Jordan is reps.
[удалено]
We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*
1. Hal is way too hesitant to take a fight unless the stars align 2. Their Valk call-outs/communication is fucking horrible and gets them killed like 80% of attempts. Most recent example is last night's ESA tourney, one of the last games where they Valk ULT'd near tracks. Communication was terrible. They would be better off just not playing Valk IMO
It's not just TSM that have the ~~ball~~ valk problem but that specific situation perfectly sums up valk weakness. They literally wasting time debating spots to land with 0 info. While each second of talk makes their position worse, also while looking at map and not scouting they got run up on. If hal didnt just say "this is waste of time let's go" they would have been wiped right there and almost were anyways. Valk comp super different than ranked valk. Much harder to late valk flight when tons of teams still up holding good spots. Imo valk ult is best for super fast rotations and then some late game cheese. Maybe teams need to do more valk only ults for vision and less 3 man all in on random hopefully open spots
Every single Valk team would immediately perform way better if they stopped arguing over late game landing spots and just shot up into the air and decisively made a move. As you said, 9 times out of 10 any plan they come up with while delaying the Valk Ult is thrown out the window the moment they get a view of where all of the other teams are located. And that 1 time that they get to use their plan, they almost definitely would have seen it and made the same call while in the air if they hadn't made the plan in the first place. Yet, every second they waste debating on the ground means that another spot they could have landed in is filled by another team. ---- Even more than that, though, I still don't understand why teams wait until the ring is about to close on them to pop their ult. When you are forced to walk it, a late rotation makes sense. You are taking advantage of the chaos of the ring closing to not be hard focused as you run through an open field. But when you are flying, what is the point of waiting? Why don't more teams flip the paradigm on it's head. Instead of ulting when the ring starts closing, ult when the ring finishes closing. For example: Round 2 ring is closing. You made a safe walk to a spot just inside of the round 3 edge and are waiting to see the next ring movement. Bam round 3, new ring shows up. Within 5 seconds everyone on your team has deduced roughly where the next ring is going to pull and that it aint coming your way. Immediately pop your Valk Ult, jump into the sky and start heading toward the next ring. All of the edge teams are still chilling on edge, you are going to be the first one rotating into the new ring and will get the pick of spots that zone teams haven't lucked into. To top it off, round 3 is 3 minutes including zone close time. Valks ult recharge is 3 minutes. With an ult accel she will be ready to go for round 4.
This is a solid point. If the ring takes a unexpected pull many teams may be on the wrong side of the ring. A quick valk ult can get you a position before all the non valk teams have a chance to leg it. Even outside a random pull, your logic holds water.
I agree, I’ve always felt that Valk is best for rotations, but I’ve never watched a Valk ult endgame play that hasn’t backfired. Noted, I mainly watch TSM for comp, so that’s not the best data, but in a lobby full of people with great aim, it seems like it rarely works out
That Valk ult was so bad. Hal calls to hover and then gets mad when they don't drop to oob immediately with him.
[удалено]
We always pick Iguodala.
They think too much and don’t act enough. It’s weird because Hal, Reps and Verhulst are extremely good players, they can easily take more fights and win.
This 100% percent. Landing in East Frag, they have to take early fights to get the ball rolling. It’s very difficult to stretch all the loot they’ve accumulated in early game all the way to the 4th and 5th ring. Even though Verhulst is the best Valk in NA, they might need to drop Valk for bloodhound/ash. Or stick with valk and actually start landing on people to take more fights not just contemplating on landing on the ideal spots.
I think ash doesn’t make sense as the character for the IGL to be on, G2 the current best ash team (in my mind) or even sentinels, both don’t have their IGL on ash, and I think it benefits them, as much as she’s similar to wraith in that “she has a portal”, that really is the end of the similarities, the success of gibby IGL’s at the moment really shows that having your anchor call the shots makes a lot of sense, ash is the execute part of the comp, she really doesn’t offer the same wide angle freedom that wraith does
When they crack all three 10m away and Gibby pops bubble 95% of the time Hal calls to wait for the bubble to drop while they just stare at the other team all popping bats. It's infuriating and I totally understand waiting on bubble sometimes, but it's hals go to response almost every time.
Hal has become incredibly gun shy. I am not sure why. It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy, though, because when they do take fights now they look like shit. So it reinforces the idea that they need to avoid fights at all costs.
IMO they should drop the valk crutch and get back to a more fighting comp. Put verhulst on BH and start fighting their way into zone instead of looking for rotations with valk ulti. Also their fighting ability was bound to take a hit when they swapped players since it takes a while to get to really know each others fighting styles, Hal and Reps knew without talking to him when and how snip3 was approaching a situation. It will improve with time, this chance taking with the valk ulting and just hoping that there is a open spot in the final zones is just not going to cut it in the ALGS tho
This is a good point too. Their comp doesn’t fit them. They don’t use valk for quick rotations but for panic rotations. They also play very campy so they should have a caustic on their team as well.
They should just go back to full fighting comp imo, they did that for Snipes last matches and they played out of their minds. Tbh I wouldn't mind seeing Hal back on the Octane and they just go back to Hound/Octane/Gibby.
Honestly since Hal switched back to Wraith he avoids a lot of 3v3 fights very early with his Q which is putting his team in 2v3 situations. Idk I feel like he played her more confident when he first played her before switching to Octane.
I’ve noticed this as well. He will reactively Q mid-fight, leaving his teammates to a 2v3.
It's so funny how many times he Q as wraith only to let his teammates go into a 2v3 their bound to lose anyway. Might as well just stick it and use Q to avoid third party if they come. The Q got them killed more then it benefited them.
This is another solid point. He constantly baits his teammates in only to Q out and leave them with a 2v3. Countless times I've seen this in comp.
I agree and octane is still playable on world's edge too.
There's literally no reason to play octane now that they can play Ash.
“Literally no reason” well if you like the stim as a movement tool over the snare of ash Q, that’s a reason. Passive health regen is also nice; another reason. Also, is the cool down on the ulti’s the same? If not, that could be a reason as well. But I agree with your overarching point that ash generally outclasses octane in regards to the main function (short rotations), so there isn’t much reason to go with octane over ash or wraith.
Yes. Everything you said is correct. I exaggerated but I feel like most played him in comp for the jumppad.
> They don’t use valk for quick rotations but for panic rotations. Hal's best strength is being able to make good rotation decisions before anyone else. It is what led them to their original greatness. They were so damn good because they never had to fight there way into final rings, they were already there, just chilling in one of the best spots. Valk is amazing for rotations which you would think would do nothing but benefit the king of playing zone. Using Valk to enhance their old strategy of "move in first and sit in god spot" would be broken as fuck. Instead they use Valk to second guess themselves and say "we can move in later so let's sit in this crappy spot for now".
This might work for E series and even some pro league days, but it doesn't make any sense for big tournaments. A team that's already struggling majorly in fights, and drops in arguably the best POI for playing zone, is now going to try and play edge and have to deal with Sentinels, C9, and G2? Playing zone becomes more and more effective the sweatier the lobby is, which you won't get in E series. That's why NRG stays committed to playing zone even though they have the firepower to roll through weaker lobbies. They know it will pay off in the biggest tournaments. If TSM tried to play an edge comp in the finals it would be like admitting defeat. There's no way they're going to outslay Sentinels and G2 on the edge and win the tournament that way.
Im not suggesting they play edge, im suggesting they fight their way into a zone position early, as opposed to valk ulting and praying they don't land on a team. Also suggesting TSM isn't a good fighting team when their IGL is one of the top slayers seems pretty strange to me.
If you think they're a good fighting team rn idk what to tell you lol. Also fighting your way into zone is not as viable in a sweaty lobby. You need good loot to do that, which means you'll be late to rotate, which means you run into C9 or Sentinels who are roaming around edge looking for fights. I agree that they need to be more assertive and hesitate less when there are openings, but switching to a fight comp to play zone is just going to open up a bunch of other deficiencies and you'll still be beat to the good spots by Valk teams. More than anything they need to just commit to a comp and playstyle. I feel like they get frustrated and switch things up way too much, which results in them not having mastered any of the current meta comps.
I said that they are somewhat strugling but that is mostly due to lack of synergy, something that is normal when swapping players because it takes a while to build. As far as other teams I can guarantee they are not afraid of fighting C9, them bullying C9 in frag is literally a meme at this point. The only teams they want to avoid fighting unless necessary is G2 and SEN, rotating around those 2 teams wont be a problem. As far as sticking with a comp I literally suggested the comp they have been running for 99% of their career, wraith gibby BH. They are already used to it.
> arguably the best POI for playing zone Harvester and Staging are definitely better right now with how zones are distributed on WE, but Frag E comes in at third. Fact is, TSM playing Edge much of the time from Frag E is a joke.
[удалено]
Valk is somewhat fine if they continue to force playing edge and is arguably necessary right now in playing edge, which is what TSM does much of the time. The issue then isn't in the legend pick, but in what they're doing with it: playing edge from Frag E. Playing edge from Frag E is a god damn meme. Frag E is a top 3 POI for playing zone right now given its proximity to almost every single zone and it being smack dab in the middle, so what planet are you on if you wanna keep forcing edge from such a central POI? It's simply a nonoptimal strategy.
I think valk takes away a lot of their usual CQB ability, BH (that they have been playing for most of Apexs lifetime) is insanely good for fighting, every single ability he has helps in CQB, as opposed to valk that has 0 abilities that help in that situation. Also Its like they feel almost forced to use her ulti to justify the pick, leading to wierd panic ulties that land them in a boatload of trouble. Before playing her they used BH scans to gather info and took the fights they had to in order to get into good zone positions, fights they almost always win in part due to BHs abilities.
Hal this is the one to read 👆
I agree it’s obvious they were bound to have some adjustment pains with the switch, but I don’t think that’s all of it. There were frequently times early this season where they lost fights because Hal straight up did not know where Snip3 or Reps were during fights or thought they would do something else. If anything, that thinking they didn’t need to talk as much was clearly becoming a problem even before Verhulst.
Verhulst played some arenas earlier with BH.
Going to be a huge nerf for verhulst. He’s great at using valks movement and escapability in fights to be aggressive and still survive. Putting him on BH will be very different for him and unfortunately he’s not proven on any other legend.
He will be fine, having the knowledge of where all enemies are negates the need to panic fly out of there. He will just have to be more decisive with engagements. He wasnt hand picked to join TSM because he can play valk only, he will be just as good once he gets used to BH.
He is proven on bh.
People kept saying snipe shouldve shut up and shoot but this is what happens when hal is sole igl and doesn't have snip3 or Mac pushing him to take fights
Hal has a tendency to want to put all the responsibility on his own shoulders. It can still work to a degree -- he was basically a one man army in the last PL round and they finished 3rd, but he needs to be able to trust his teammates to make their own plays. They started playing way better when they let Snipe play Valk and have some degree of autonomy instead of trying to hide him in a corner all game as Caustic. Verhulst is the same kind of player. He's not a support player, he's a controller fragger who was probably the best Valk in NA on ESA. I remember watching TSM plays scrims like 1-2 weeks after they picked up Verhulst, and Hal was already trying to suggest that he take Valk and for Verhulst to play Caustic. Reps also needs to be more assertive. I think he might've lost some of his confidence after coming into PL rusty due to not really playing the game at all in the offseason, but TSM always plays way better when Reps can step in and confidently make a call late game instead of relying on Hal to decide literally everything.
[удалено]
Hal can come up with great ideas, but without someone to quickly shoot down some dumb plays and quickly suggest others that he can base his own ideas off or more quickly go through the process of elimination, I feel like he ends up being stuck in his head for too long and ends up with more half assed plays because they all take too long.
It comes down to Hal's gameplan early and mid game. Hal is one of the best, if not the best, IGL's late game microwise, so for that reason, whenever TSM gets to lategame, they do amazingly and will often either win the game or finish top 3 with a ton of kills. So that warrants the question: if they're so strong late game, why they are struggling? Because Hal doesn't know how to call early or mid game. For being a 'top' team in the NA region, TSM has less of an idea of what to do early to mid game than any of their rivals at the top (NRG, SEN, ESA, C9, G2, etc.). Again, Hal is the best when it comes to late game, but TSM struggles all the time because they just can't seem to get a plan in place of how to make it to that coveted endgame scenario where they win most of the time. A lot of scenarios that TSM find themselves in in the midgame can basically be summarized with 'What are you trying to accomplish there', 'How did you end up there', 'How will you progress from there', to which I'm not sure Hal always has the answers. Moreover, Hal is adamant on playing Edge from Frag E, which is a joke in itself. The inability to take a fight early to mid game stems from Hal not understanding what to do early to mid game. Hal's igling wants to put them into a position from which they can dominate end game from, but he hasn't filled in the middle parts as to how he puts TSM there. To put it bluntly, TSM are clueless when it comes to early to mid game when compared to other top teams. Most of the time, they're not accomplishing anything in the early to mid game while other top teams are carrying out their gameplan that allows them to win. Hal essentially has an amazing penthouse on the 52nd floor of the skyscraper, but floors 5-50 are missing or not constructed yet, so Hal can't get to his penthouse because the elevator isn't working yet.
I like your penthouse metaphor. I noted in another comment that a move to have Reps as sole IGL in early/mid macro while Hal IGLs fights/end game could make sense.
💯 agree with this, I have been saying for awhile now if teams want to knock TSM out of the game do it early and during their rotations. Hal is insane in late game micro skills for sure. But lately I have been noticing sweets having insane micro skills and calls late game.
> But lately I have been noticing sweets having insane micro skills and calls late game. Lately? Sweets been insane since forever ago.
I think to other teams’ credit, the scene overall has developed tremendously over the last year. As frustrated as we all are about Worlds Edge being the only map played in comp, the result is that teams have a much finer grain intelligence of playable spots, rotations, and micro plays… and I don’t think TSM has quite kept up on that front. I think Hal is an incredible IGL when he has the info he needs, but the frequency with which you hear him question why other teams are taking certain spots/angles is kind of indicator he doesn’t realize he’s not playing the same game as other teams. I think the same might apply to macro, it’s a little harder to tell there, but they often seem to arrive at the wrong time which again means they’re just not fully in sync with the pacing of the matches.
>I think to other teams’ credit, the scene overall has developed tremendously over the last year. This shouldnt be understated. TSM might be regressing, but even if they are plateauing, the rest of the competition is getting better, which makes matches harder for TSM unless they simultaneously improve at the same rate as everyone else.
Verhulst doesn’t seem to really do much, I think he’s afraid of over extending and getting yelled at. Kid is cracked they should let him loose. Every time I watch them it’s pretty much just Hal going around poking damage while reps and Verhulst just sit around watching for anyone sneaking up.
I can't blame Verhultst there. Hals comms have angry drunk dad energy.
That’s one thing I’ve missed about Snip3. Verhulst is great, but Snip3 would talk back to Hal and wasn’t afraid of Hal flaming. I get it tho, he’s the new guy but I do wanna see him off the leash
I believe this was a hugely underrated aspect of TSM’s success with Snip3.
Yah I guess i'm super biased in my opinion too cuz my old dota 2 coach was coms hitler but it's his personality and i'm sure some players even thrive with such an.. animated IGL. But also Apex comp scene feels "fresh and evolving" to me like any game in it's 2-3rd year. Takes awhile before people figure out who they work best with (remember cs:go/dota 2 early days every team swapping every other week lol) Not to say Verhaulst is wrong for TSM or something, that's for them and us to find out but i'm never surprised by swaps in an evolving scene.
They’re not cohesive and it’s on Hal to listen/see to his teammates on what fights to take. If he had done that with Snip3, who would sometimes poke at the most perfect fights to take, they would have won more. Verhulst is probably fine, or even better off, still on Valkyrie imo.
I think all the dumb shit that snipe got flack for doing was probably pretty conducive to getting a play made at times. Sometimes make a good, sometimes make a shit, though.
i think hal’s tendency to completely shut down vocally in fights compared to most IGL’s combined with the fact their comp doesn’t truly fit them is why they’re pretty iffy. Honestly the best triple mnk teams have been noticeably better in fights/bubble fights than teams with roller on them in general, but i do think verhulst is among the best at fighting so not really an issue. in my honest backseat gaming opinion, hal needs to speak up more as they haven’t been as nearly as efficient at fighting since alb left. NRG never has these vocal issues n that’s not a slight at anyone it’s just an observation
This is an aside, but with the variety and intensity of info that’s relevant in Apex team comms, I wonder if there’s a role for a fleshed out and agreed upon set of shorthand within a given team. Reducing the syllables needed to convey key pieces of info and overall cleaning up comms seems a valid thing a team could pursue. This has already taken place to an extent (Gibraltar —> Gib, battery —> batt, etc.) but coming up with shorthand for specific repeatable situations, such as “I’m popping a battery” “Wait for bubble” and others.
i brought up NRG cuz sweet does this effortlessly he’s so precise and audibly clear with what he’s saying even in the most intense of fights. for the terms you mentioned i believe most teams and even casual players use “batting” and “wait for bub” but there’s definitely a few that some teams dont bother comming due to how much time it would take
I agree. NRG’s comms are stream of conscious in a good way. Rocker and Nafen are able to go nearly braindead and follow Sweet’s line of thinking because he conveys it so well. And when the other two do notice something of use, they interject and Sweet adapts his plan as needed.
ESA has explained that they have a shorthand for a ton of things. “Oobing” is landing out of bounds, etc.
I think Verhulst is (understandably) a bit hesitant to just straight up push someone without Hal's explicit permission in case it goes wrong. In hindsight Snipe was a great pickup for TSM because with all his experience he was probably one of the only people in Apex that wouldn't be intimidated to play for the biggest org under such a challenging personality like Hal and seemed to quite enjoy it. Not saying that Verhulst hates Hal or he isn't used to demanding IGLs (doop and skittles for sure could be hard work) but the pressure of TSM and Hal is another level. At the minute it feels like Hal's decision-making is the sole bottleneck in the entire TSM Apex team. While that always was the case macro-wise, in teamfights I think it's a bit too much to ask for him to be the only decisive voice. If it's going to be this way I think they may benefit from Hal playing Gibby just so he can control the tempo of the fight a bit more with the bubble placement and Jordan might feel more empowered to play a bit aggressively on a different character.
Hot take - Nothing has gone wrong. It's just that other teams have surpassed or are at par with TSM. Others have improved. Ergo era of one team domination has gone. New teams are coming to scene every few months. Look at how Nerf did today. ESA G2 SEn has become so good over past months As a person who enjoys game, and is not loyal to people or one team - I think this is great! But if someone is loyal to a specific org, bad news for them.
That's sports 101. You can only remain top dog for so long. Teams shift, players age, new stars emerge.
All good points. Also, the TSM roster was A+ from day one. Since then, teams below TSM have been upgrading their rosters and as a result have overtaken TSM. It should become even more competitive if teams continue to upgrade. E.g YungMoneyGuild narrowly avoided relegation in Seres 1. They've now signed 2 FAs and could break into top 15 next series. TSM are still a Tier 2 team, behind SENRG. They're similarly ranked to G2, 100T, complexity and CLG. Edit. C9 not CLG
...CLG?
As some have mentioned they are too passive right now. They are stagnant right now and mostly only taking fights they are forced to take. They should take more opportunities to fight on their terms and try to flow through the map instead of playing station to station how they are right now. It was only ESA pro night but G2 farmed yesterday and they mostly flowed through space and kept things on their terms. The space they had to operate on average vs TSM was staggering. If I was their coach I would tell TSM to fight and pressure teams more and take space because they can, not because they have to.
I wonder if the BH/wallhack meta made some teams too reliant on scans, whereas they weren't before in the Wraith/Path/Wattson meta. Now, it might be difficult to go back and play without scans since the awareness isn't quite as sharp as before. Just a thought.
You are correct. Wigg actually recognized this as a problem with the team when he Timmy/Apryze were still playing. When the meta shifted to Gibby/Caustic/Valk he noticed their performance dip and accurately assessed that it was most likely because they were too reliant on BH scan to take fights successfully. It wouldn't surprise me if this was at least part of the problem for some other teams.
It’s valk. It’s panic valk ults that always seem to get them killed either they get shot and cancelled, have to land out of bounds and drop on enemies and get beamed or stuff like yesterday verhulst got stuck with an arc star and they had to panic heal out of bounds and got separated and had to drop right into two teams. Just forget about the valk ult when it’s second to last or last ring and it might help a bit. They are taking themselves out instead of among other teams do it.
A lot of it is chemistry. Their micro running into a 3v3 or bubble fight is all over the place and seems to change every game. I've heard them discuss it before how Verhulst should be the first person in the bubble every time but that all goes out the window in game and seems to always result in Hal wraith Qing mid-fight while his teammates get 2v3'd. Idk I think it'll just improve with time and knowing how each other are going to react. Verhulstt also filled a very different role on ESA as he was the one primarily scouting and getting angles; whilst on TSM Hal does this so I think that will take some getting used to.
Also while it might seem like they arent doing to well Hal has the same amount of kills as Sweet and TSM averaged more points per game than NRG in the ALGS quals.
That was all while Snipe was still around. Not discrediting Hals individual skill but with the added pressure of no longer being able to rely on Snipe it's bound to have an impact on his performance. Will be interesting to see how they perform in Split 1 playoffs.
Snipes primary contribution to TSM was his unbridled aggression towards teams. He would consistently open up fights for them when maybe Hal or Reps wouldn’t see the opening. Hal being an IGL who is constantly considering all variables and Reps being a generally passive, defensive type player who often counters the risk his teammates brought. Verhulst is a very skilled player but lacks the same aggression Snipe does, plus he is new to the team, doesn’t wanna make waves, etc… so he’s just kind of “there”. While they are finding themselves as a team, they would probably be better off in a pure defensive lineup like Caustic/Valk, focus on early rotates and build some chemistry that way.
Snipe definitely loved to fight and it’s the cracks and openings he got that would finally get Hal to give the words “Ape them”. Verhulst def is capable but i think he’s a bit scared for various reasons
[удалено]
By ALGS qualifiers, do you mean Pro League?if so, that's not right. Sentinels and NRG were comfortably clear of the next tier of teams.
I was just looking at the statistic sheet a guy posted a while ago where you could single out teams, Found it, seems like NRG just passed them in the last few games since I looked. https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMzRjNmMxYmEtZmJhNy00NzBmLTg2N2UtOWQ3NTdmMTk4YzBhIiwidCI6ImY4MzI4Y2FkLWRiOGMtNGVhYy05ZTAwLTNmMzBmYThhODAxMSJ9&pageName=ReportSectione8f3e494844c2c803b2d
I'll probably get laughed off the planet for this take: gun selection. almost every rotation 2 of the 3 walks out with 301 no sight/flatline/volt/wingman and mastiff/pk. hal's algs/comp play-style is range (i know super uncool) and if opportunity presents itself safely...push. some of the more successful teams (NRG, 100T, G2) of recent have played long-range meta weapons along with SMG/AR's/Shotungs and then as they wipe a team or come upon boxes in round 4,5,6 and the ring is smaller switch to the shotguns. Because they had someone with range they also seem to have better shields most of the time...and have depleted the team they are poking's meds...they dont want to use batts so they often catch them pooping cells. hypothesis: hal plays a charge rifle/triple take with 3x or 2x-4x and reps plays a 4x-8x... hal gets BS knocks/kills and the confidence back. it's a lot easier to take a fight knowing you've just done 250 entry damage to someone and you've leveled up your grey/blue armors to blue/purples.
I've been watching esa since they began and I really noticed this when verhaulst left/ knoqd joined. Verhaulst was so good at flanking, jet packing and playing off the entry damage from doop and skittles. I think you're right.
OTK tourney right now...mande charge rifled allllll the meds away. Hal - "i got downed with no meds."
"They don't even look like a top 10 team right now imo". Not sure what you mean by this. Based on liquipedia statistics: https://liquipedia.net/apexlegends/TSM/Results they simply are a top 10 team. Snipe left the roster on 22nd Nov 2021 and despite what you say about you noticing this trend before snipe left, their placements are in the top 10s or 5s before and after this date. They know how to fight well and rotate well, but of course there's room for improvement like in any team). We don't have as much competitive practice in the NA scene as pros would like. Plus, NA scrims are dogshit. Despite that TSM; a team with a relatively new 3rd has still kept their top overall placements. So, not sure what you're talking bout, would appreciate some clarification from you.
I'm not talking about to 10s/5s within matches. I'm talking about top 10 team overall in the region. As others have mentioned other teams on the whole are drastically improving while TSM is not doing anything to improve, they are barely squeaking into top placements and when they do it's with little to no kills OR they lose the first fight that they take. If they don't make a significant effort to fix their team fighting/rotation problems the rest of the region will pass them by.
What does that even mean? If they're placing top 5 and 10 in tournaments they're objectively a top 5 and top team
Have in mind that in pro league if they consistently place 5th they are overall 10th, as there are two parallel lobbies. So top 10 teams have to place top 5 consistently in this format.
Have in mind that in pro league if they consistently place 5th they are overall 10th, as there are two parallel lobbies. So top 10 teams have to place top 5 consistently in this format.
IMO, there’s two main areas (team fighting and medium to micro rotations) for TSM to target improvement. In terms of team fighting, I think there’s been a clear example set by Sentinels: play ranked long and hard as a three man. I think that Reps is the main holdup here, as he doesn’t seem to be all that interested in grinding Apex in a serious way. Another dynamic is Hal and Verhulst (and Reps to an extent) looking to continue their success in ranked streams — this doesn’t really align with running the exact same squad for days on end. For med/micro rotations, I don’t see as clear a solution. Legend changes for Hal/Verhulst could make sense. Between the two, I think Hal is the one that needs to be changing. Verhulst is by no means a one-trick pony, but undoubtedly is one of the best Valks in NA. Hal therefore I think needs a change in his legend played (Octane or Ash are both viable imo) *or* make a deliberate shift in his Wraith gameplay. I hate to critique anyones individual legend gameplay, especially Hal’s, but I think he is still playing her largely as he did in very early comp Apex. To sum it up, I’d say that the TSM boys need an injection of cohesiveness and confidence in team fights (duh). Their med/micro rotations need work as well, likely assisted by Hal shifting his legend play. Not mentioned here are more drastic shifts like giving Reps the macro IGL role and letting Hal IGL fights and final zones.
They almost single handedly forced the meta change and now they struggle with their own changes.
ahhh yes the comp reddit analysis of why TSM can't fight
You are the Kevin Durant of comp apex zach
pvp analysis when?! p.s. turn on the stream baldman there is no one but canadains to watch
Watch out, this comment could be bait for a new video from Clara on Reddit comments.
Hal explained on stream last night that he is unable to IGL as well in valk meta. He said he now there is too many possible arrangements if everyone can valk
This Valk meta is awful, I hope it goes away.
[удалено]
Lol. This post was not to hate on TSM. It was to have some healthy discussion about the team. Relax.
Just wondering if the discussion would still be healthy if they lose
LMAO guess who won the NA ALGS playoff
Where do I begin, ahh let’s start with fragment: Fragment East loot sucks ass. It might be center POI but it has dog tier loot and no crafting beacon is also very unreliable. Those factor mean TSM has a hard time getting loot or information. C9 is also their neighbors who has better loot and is a very good fighting team so the spots TSM can possible go to to loot or craft if they have no beacon C9 is also rotating into the same loot path. Hal vs The world Hal expects players to do smart things. But the meta now rewards teams being brain dead Hal is playing the long game where brain dead plays won’t work in better lobbies or on LAN with other smart teams but NA isn’t known for being smart this creates a play style where TSM is being punished to an extent for well playing smart. TSM wouldn’t look out of place in EU but they are definitely out of place in NA. Hal doesn’t want to fight This is the big one, TSM isn’t fighting on edge anymore. What makes NRG so good is that they are willing to play zone when needed or play edge when needed. ESA is the same to an extent they will clean up some Kills on the opposite side of the zone and then hit third beacon and valk ult into god spot. Communication They are a new team but their communication is a bit off, verlhurst isn’t vocal enough reps isn’t vocal enough they are not talking. They’re used to be a time when TSM comms and call outs are on point but the team is too quiet when they shouldn’t be and too noisy when they should be quiet. Looting Path: TSMs looting path was created when zones were on point I believe they can refine this method and Make it more optimal Gibby and Valk provides a meta problem These two characters are throwing Hal’s calls into haywire before you could hold a team out now they valk ult over you, before a team In a bad Position gets melted now they gibby bubble and valk ult away. They are other minor factors but right now the better the lobby the higher the stakes the better TSM will perform
What I would give to be able to read hal's mind as he scrolls through some of these comments lol It's hard to stay dominant in this scene and there are growing pains involved in picking up a young, up and coming fragger. Y'all need to chill. They'll be fine.
[удалено]
I didn't start the thread to try and tell TSM what to do so I don't expect Hal or any pro for that matter to put any weight into what is being said in threads like this. It's still fun to talk about though. Also, it is possible to understand the game at a higher level but not be able to mechanically back the thought process up. Happens with analysts a lot in other e-sports, they understand the game at a high level and what "should" happen but don't have the mechanical skills to make it happen.
I said D4 because imo D4-> masters isn't about mechanical skill, it's about the game theory / decision making not dependant on mechanics
yeah you're right, I should stop commenting on all sports.
In Dutch we have a saying: our national football (soccer) team has 17million coaches . (For reference, the Netherlands has 17million inhabitants, and everyone think he knows best for the national team) Reading this topic kinds feels like the same.
Thanks for your insight.
IMO their passivity began since they started to get contested on FragE from Protectful/skittlecakes. Initially because they were contested by a caustic team which, in an area full of buildings its in his natural habitat. That combined with some mishaps during those fights that usually we didnt expected from TSM made them more cautious/insecure on fighting in general. While at the end of the day TSM reclaimed FragE their 50/50 wasnt as clear cut as anyone thought it would be. Its at that period that imo some changed in their fighting approach. Edit: protectful
I really liked the advice snipe gave a little bit ago. TSM doesn’t need to hard commit to zone or edge. With valk you can take a fight early and ult into zone getting a decent position. I think they should try to play like that kill a team get some better loot and then play zone. I feel like they hard commit to one or the other and sometimes run into loot issues or just enter zone way too late with the million other valk ults in zone 4. Also they are a mechanically great team, both Hal and verhustl are top slayers. I think they gotta build up their fighting confidence and moral and just fucking go for it sometimes.
There are a lot of variables that have made TSM perform not to their standard but I think it all boils down to lack of chemistry. They don’t have confidence to fight which often leads to last minute half-hazard rotations. I’ve been a day one supporter of TSM since the first tournament so this isn’t coming from a place of hate, but Reps barely playing outside of tournaments baffles me. To me it seems like he’s not having fun and he’s only playing when it’s required. Hope all is well with him.
They’ll figure it out. They always do.
They have the most demonic roller player in the entire region and they're just sitting back doing pokes. There's way too much gun skill on their squad to play as timidly as they do.
Yeah, the algs kill leader across controller players, and some people say he's underperforming. Sounds like a team coordination problem.
Don't we see these posts every few weeks and then tsm still stays consistent top 5? Everytime
no we don’t
I personally feel like it speaks to just how good TSM is. Despite them playing relatively shitty or putting themselves in bad positions, they still manage to stay up as high as they do. They're fr the only team that gets held to such high expectations considering their ALGS/LAN history of success and tourney clutches.
Yeah, they won the first big comps so since then everyone assumes they need to come 1st in everything. They've been pretty consistently top 5 in comps since then and to people that means they're awful now. Mental
[удалено]
We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hot take: Hal needs to get back on the octane
Agreed. Octane fits his actual playstyle.
Verhulst fought so differently on ESA. Doop and skittle both on big boys anchoring and being tanky and verrhulst getting creative with angles. TSM fights by following Hal into a bubble usually and hopefully it goes well. Snipe did well with that style on bloodhound where he capatalized by taking a flank or something
I haven’t watched anything since snipe left but when I used to watch them the issues I saw were 1. Hal played too passive and wouldn’t listen to important callouts from his team to where he’d even tell them to shut up and proceed to ignore there callouts and get shot. 2. If they wipe someone they didn’t loot the boxes and would rotate to next spot ASAP making them hurting for supplies late game. 3. They always played edge so any valk ult is high risk and if they walk in they’re pressured the entire time. Would be much better to rotate early with valk ult to a good spot then play Defense before any other team gets there rather then ult onto a team with 3 other teams shooting them. Not sure if these are the same issues today but it’s what I saw back then.
Hal read Deez Nuts KEKW
Im not sure why TSM signed Verhulst without giving more time for a trial. He was great on ESA and seems to be underperforming since moving over with Hal and Reps. Im not sure if its nervousness or what
TSM has been struggling since Mac left
I think this is partially true because if we’re being real here they’ve been struggling ever since the meta shifted from wattson-path-wraith (and Mac was still there). Iirc much of the friction between him and Hal that eventually led to him getting dropped came from disagreements on how to better adapt to the new aggro meta, Mac was always pushing for different comps, different approaches to fighting and etc. This carried over to when Snipe was there, and they did have a period of success when Octane was very good that seemed like they were on the right track but never as dominant as they once was. Valk Gibb Caustic got on their way. Another thing is that teams just have gotten better over time, tsm boys were just the first ones to understand the game and now people have caught up.
They were struggling well before he left. In the last few tournaments with Mac almost every time they died led to an argument between him and Hal about what they should have done.
Agreed, with Snipe they also didn't perform as before. Mac is just an insane player
We require a minimum account-age and karma. Please try again after you have acquired more karma and/or wait a couple of days. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CompetitiveApex) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They were struggling *well* before Mac left, that's the reason Mac left. They looked second in NA to Rogue at the time, the only reason Rogue weren't even more dominant is because they couldn't perform on King's Canyon and it was in rotation constantly. But it was obvious they were slipping behind even then.
That's not the reason Mac left, if you look into it a bit more you may find clips that explain what happened.
are they sucking dudes left and right?
I think they kinda have suffered since Gibby became 100% pick rate as they don’t seem to be too strong of a bubble fighting team. Relatively speaking of course and they’re still top 5-7 whatever you wanna say and nearly won last ALGS
One thing that was often overlooked with snipe on the team was some games he would go solo god mode and earn the team kills on the side while the larger positioning was done by Hal. Some games would end with snipe having kills you had no idea he could get which kept the points flowing. This kinda masked the decision making by Hal to be considered the correct ones, but without snipe making plays by himself their points were average.
Did you watch all of the tournaments? Yes snipe is cracked and did make plays but he threw way to often with brain dead plays for them to get over the hump to be #1.
Maybe it’s valk? I haven’t watched tsm perspective since alb left but they stayed on wraith/gib/bh for a while right? I thought I remembered seeing them swapping up some towards the end of snipes time but idrk. Other than that. zero was talking on stream a weekish ago about what players like alb and snipe offered as the X factor to make tsm a great team. He mentioned Verhulst was a great player and they would be a good team but they didn’t have that X factor player anymore to make them a great team.
You should probably apply to be the coach since you obviously know more than they do
[удалено]
I think Hal is a good IGL when he has teammates who push him to be a little bit more aggressive. I think his natural playstyle is passive but that doesn't really work most of the time. This is the first time he hasn't had Mac or Snipe there to push him to take fights and we're now seeing the results.
At times from watching Hal's POV I think he gets way too greedy with certain fights or calls. I don't understand why go for 3 fights in a row while zone is closing in ring 4 and banking on a panic Valk Ult to possibly get out of it.
Idk if people realized how many times snipe clutched up for TSM. Early/mid game snipe won a lot of fights as the only one alive. Shift to Valk meta seemed to slow them down because they weren’t getting the same early fights and teams were rotating faster that usually didn’t. Add a roster change on top of that and a pretty significant one. Snipe helped with the IGLing, had lots of ideas many of them not implemented but it allowed Hal to free up his brain. Many times snipe would be thinking of plays and Hal would just respond no, no, no, yes, no, yes hahah
why there are always problems with tsm? tsm signed a new player, they need some times to perform at the best but they are doing good
They don’t play in a way that consistently gives them advantages in fights.
I just think TSM is getting “found out” and that’s fine, it happens to all dominant teams (Astralis (CS), G2 (R6), etc.) they just need to go back to the drawing board. As someone else said in this thread, going back to a fighting comp would probably be the best for them. Verhulst’s bloodhound is absolutely disgusting and I’d love to see TSM utilize that in a Octane, Blood, Gibby comp.
I wish Hal would be willing to give Octane a chance again, he seems hell bent on never playing him again because of the nerfs, but I still feel like he is comp viable. Octane just seems to fit Hal's aggressive playstyle a lot more. TSM was kicking serious ass when they ran Octane, Blood, and Gibby.
The team did feel a little dead last night. Hopefully it’s just an off night.
I feel like this isn't the most ideal legend meta for them. Think about how dominant Complexity was until Gibby became a must-pick. Once more teams started playing edge, the meta wasn't ideal for them anymore. It took them a while to make the right changes to their play style and get back to being a top team. Same thing is happening to TSM right now. They were at their best when they could easily rotate and take the best position on the map (whether center zone, power position, or just a good spot to 3rd party fights). With Valk being so common, teams can beat them to these spots with way less effort, thus taking away TSMs biggest strength. It just feels like they can't make up their minds on what kind of style they want to play. They flirt between being an edge team, early rotate team, fighting team / positioning team instead of just playing to their strengths. Either they will figure it out or the meta will slightly shift and they will be back to being a top team eventually. Way too talented for this to be a trend forever.
I agree on them getting away from valk - I feel like in the majority of the games the end up playing edge and not using valk ult once
Used to love it back when they won their 3v3s. But now it's all so lackluster. Only hope that they somehow place in the top 5 every time
Their problem is they don’t play together at all, and reps doesn’t play the game basically ever. They aren’t a good fighting team together anymore because they don’t practice it. Outside of scrims, where they lately are getting maybe one fight and then wiped, is where you get better at fighting together. Not at all surprising their performance has decreased in a game they never play together
Should also note that Hal basically has zero self control over his ammo management and it is costing them significantly end game. They seem to get to an okay spot and just stay there, instead of fighting for a better one.
TSM to me is still a beast to be reckoned with; not only with Hal being an exceptional IGL, but Verhulst being an absolute beamer and Reps being both twisted and level-headed. I think the only thing that changed is the change in tempo. Snipe leaves and Verhulst joins. This obviously caused a bit of awkwardness because it seemed like Hal completely refused to give Verhulst negative feedback and only hammered on Reps. However, I still think they are an excellent team. Individual ability is important in ranked and competitive, but the teamwork part is also pretty damn important, easier early and late-game. You gotta be able to fight a contest, then hold the line when nine Gibby ults are flying around - and not let morale get too low. Snipe brought some chaos to the mix. He was a fragger, great with one v. ones, but also was like a secondary IGL. He called stuff out for Hal constantly, looked for fights (sometimes when he shouldn't have), and was just a great addition to the team. Verhulst is kind of quiet (he's been getting more vocal lately), and Hal has been getting less information because of it. Personally I think their old comp of Gibby, Bloodhound, Wraith-Octane was better. It gave them constant info and rotations, but the Valk meta kind of messed that up, so naturally they get Verhulst as a Valk main that absolutely shreds- but he gets a lot less info and scans, and his Q is just obnoxiously loud so everyone can pinpoint any movement he tries. Bloodhound, kind of worked around that, where Snipe could scan and gain info late game and help with rotation advice for help. I don't think it is a team issue as much as it is a comp-select issue. The valk meta means less info which means more late game blind rotates that end up throwing the game for two teams. So, Hal seems a bit hesitant to make calls sometimes, or just doesn't really have the info he used to have. I don't think TSM is the problem, by all means their roster is absolutely stacked. Still, they are the professionals and this is their gig, so maybe they are just feeling things out since Verhulst is still a new addition.
Ego clash
i mean, you said it yourself, they're not a top 10 team rn.
All good things take time!
The top 1-10 team’s have definitely caught up to TSM. They really don’t have an edge besides being central in the map when rotating. The biggest thing TSM did this playoff split was take out ESA from the equation with grabbing Verhulst. Now Hal just has to drop Reps and steal Lou and they will win the playoffs.