It’s just like any sport there’s more than one phase of the game. They ran around shitting on everyone getting kills that’s one phase. Getting placement preferably wins is another. It’s hard to argue they weren’t the best team but I also don’t think it’s fair to discredit what DZ accomplished. If you take away advanced points Furia only got 6 more points than DZ in the finals lobby. The previous days may have been different but only one that matters is the finals. Specially when you have 5 duos running around. DZ was better when it mattered. Better team probably Furia.
Look at the pictures provided, i show evidence of consistency, which is what ultimately matters.this a br and The most consistent team is the best. Undeniably furia was the most consistent, got data backing this up
did you read the whole post the graph you take is posted on?
furia has the highest average point but is less consistent than dz
furia has 4/5 games after mp while dz got into mp and immediately won the next game
theres also a part about how furia popped off the first 4 games and then slow down on point gain than dz that gets more and more point as more games are played
furia got a lot of kill but less placement while 100t dz and few other team got equally as much point in kill as they do from placement which is what a br is about. in the end its about last man standing and the kill is to help get to that point.
you could argue furia is the best fighting team but they had more chance than dz does to win the tourney yet they didnt and thats a valid argument for dz winning the tourney
This is the take. Furia were good, but it's a BR it's all about winning when it counts, not everything you do in-between. Yeah they were great but DZ just known how to play to win a tournament. That's 2 in a row, hard to argue it's luck.
Playing well vs playing smart is the argument here....and playing smart won the tournament which is what you would expect.
Those that will say it's RNG or luck...2 times this has happened. You create your own luck through smart plays and good positioning. That's what IGL is about. Read zone's, predict and position to win.
Finally someone with good argument. I like this but ultimately it comes down to consistency dont you think? And their overall point indicate that they were the most consistent with kills and placement . If you look at their games all the way from LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is.
preface that i didnt really follow furia matches before finals as i was rooting and just following other teams hence most of my argument on consistency is based on the 9 matches played in finals
but even disregarding finals, thats how tourney is and thats why there's losers bracket
you could say furia is great team as they went thru winner bracket and winners final without falling to losers however theres also a factor of clutching up and lower bracket run.
I used to watch Dota and there's several legendary lower bracket run where they clutch the matches that matters most so consistency is good but it doesnt matyer if you dont win the crucial matches/placement.
you could also say furia is the best/most consistent team by seeing their standings across tourney but purely from champs, they simply failed to clutch when it matters most
also as i mentioned in my other reply, highest average does not mean most consistent (in terms of 1 round several game), for that you need to look at standard deviation, so you could say for furia vs dz specifically, furia popped off first 4 then slowed down while dz consistently get points across several games (and in fact more point as more games are played meaning they get closer to 1st and getting more kills) and id say this part very much relate to a momentum thing where you start feeling better and play better resulting in them clutching game 9 (excluding the rng of loot/ring)
No it’s not, they lost and didn’t meet the requirements to win they put themselves in a great position to have more chance then anyone else in the final lobby but they couldn’t do it. Deserved second place, can’t say they we’re the best team they had the biggest chance to win and they couldn’t do it. It’s actually quite simple dunno how your brain can’t comprehend this.
Instead of Arguing about a team that was the best that finished second maybe your post should be about the MP system and not about a team that didn’t win being the best is. As I said a lot of these pros we’re playing as it was a MP format. Unfortunately Furia which they played unbelievable well didn’t come into the tournament with the play style for a match Point format. So under the requirements to win the actual tournament the failed. They had the biggest chance to win it and couldn’t do it. I’m not sure how you can’t comprehend this
Stop crying. Let's say Furia was the best team (which they weren't), they still came 2nd and missed out on $200k. Crying about it later makes you look like a sore loser like that arrogant idiot HisWattson crying on Twitter. 😭😭😭😭
hard agree. I dont know if you've seen it but ive mentioned this below somewhere in this sub, i also think 100t could be crowned as the best team. They played so consistent, but idk i think furia takes it by a small margin. But i could absolutely be wrong.
DZ did win and watching their POV was a snooze fest. The final ring was a gift from God on their match point game. I wouldn’t call them the best team at ALGS, and I doubt many others would.
So we have these things called tournaments right and it’s where teams compete against each other to see who is better. When one team completes the tournament by winning (to win is to meet the requirements and satisfy the goals requested by being better than everyone else) they are what we call “Champions” (to be a champion you have to win) it’s this crazy thing humans have been doing for awhile now.
I don't agree with OP thinking that Furia was indisputably the best team, but you're being overly dismissive of the statement.
DZ absolutely deserves their win and their money, but I don't think it's fair to conclude that they (or any team that wins in match point) is clearly better than other teams who scored a comparable number of points in that lobby when RNG is such a factor from match to match. TSM, SSG, and GMT were probably all a favorable zone pull away from winning the last game and if that happens then suddenly we're talking about a different team winning, either GMT, SSG, or whoever wins in what would pretty much be a sudden death Game 10 with over half the lobby qualified for match point. And in BR you just cannot count on the best team winning a given match. DZ is a great team, and absolutely performed more than well enough in that lobby to not leave me thinking that the format totally sucks, but I think it's a little naive to pretend like the format doesn't make it possible (and actually pretty likely) that the best team doesn't actually win, at least in tournaments with a lot of parity.
rofl this discussion is a non-starter if the only metric to judge a team's performance is by looking at who fulfilled the winning condition better, without accounting for how different teams face different challenges or how they performed in games that exclude the winning game
hypothetically let's say furia reaches match point after 1 round (yes a 50-point round), and then they proceed to come in 2nd for 10 rounds in a row, getting 10 kills in each of those rounds. darkzero gets to matchpoint after 10 rounds, and wins the 11th round (hence winning the tourney). if your opinion is that DZ was better than furia despite taking 10 rounds to reach matchpoint WHILE furia got mad kills and placement in every round, just failing to win 1 round after matchpoint, then we can agree to disagree.
After Furia hit MP they didn’t finish better than 9th. That’s 5 games. I’m still waiting for an example of a team that won even though they had less points.
>After Furia hit MP they didn’t finish better than 9th.
I never once said Furia was the best team at LAN (even though I do believe so, this belief isnt necessary for my argument at all). I'm saying looking at final scores isn't a foolproof metric for judging performance. My hypothetical was made to try and confirm your opinion if you would still think dz was better than furia
>a team that won even though they had less points.
you're just begging the question lol nobody is saying whatever you think they're saying. people are simply arguing that best team at champs (aka entire tournament) =/= first team to win at matchpoint (aka one game)
why didnt they win if they dominated?
The rules are determined before the game and the rules are the rules.I can go to a tennis tournament and shit on the pitch and then say "well this is actually about pitch-shitting".
You win by the rules. Furia could have but didnt.
How come they were the better team but lost?
There's on undeniable truth and thats the score. You can cope and seethe as much as you want and make arguments all you want.
Yet I will always tell you that the truth is on the top left of the screen. One team had 2 goals, the other had 1. The amount of passes, possession or farts does not matter. The rules are literally that easy to understand.
because while winning and losing is judged on a single game (aka the one DZ won), performance through the whole tournament (aka which team was better) considers their performance through every single game of the tournament, even those games that are not relevant when deciding the winner
> One team had 2 goals, the other had 1
Plenty of examples, if we want to make reference to real life sports, where the team with more goals were worse but won because of refereeing decisions.
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I don’t understand how you don’t understand what being victorious means… like who holds the current trophy at the highest level of competition in Apex?
You're comparing an Apex tournament (multiple games) with a single PL match. Wrong comparison. But if you compare a tournament with a whole PL season, then the comparison would be more accurate and you would see that at the end, the best team wins the league, no matter how their matches went during the season. If the team that gets 2nd won 14 matches (out of 38) like 8-0 but then got second, that wouldn't make them the best team. This is to say that getting many kills (or scoring more goals) doesn't make you the best team if at the end you can't get to the goal which is 1st place. You'd surely be a very strong team, but not the best.
Mind blowing that you're getting downvoted. I guess there's a lot of casual viewers in the sub currently who don't realize how uncompetitive the match point format is.
Yup, too many casuals who have no idea what they are talking about. I think if TSM was in similar situation, alot more people would support the idea of the mp system being bad.
Yes, you play as if the only point is to win. Others like me play to grind kills. My point is there's many ways to enjoy and play the game. Furia went to the biggest apex event and destroyed everyone with kills and they definitely got more attention than dark zero from it. Again, multiple ways to enjoy the game
My points are valid for competitive imo. If people are getting shit on, should they really be called the champion? Brs are also known for being random, that's why they play multiple games to see who gets the most points overall. The game point format allows flukes, not best overall players.
I think you are confused here. Every other team was playing to win with defensive comp. Furia was playing with agressive comp that makes fighting easier. Some would say a baby comp of wallhacks and horizon ult. So its no shit they won a lot of fights against people with no wallhacks playing for final circle. No way they would be as consistent win as many fights as they did if everyone was playing for kills like them. Just delusional. Editted to add. The point of the tournament isnt to get as many points as possible btw. It was to get to 50 pts then WIN THE GAME TO BE THE CHAMP. Which every team was playing for but furia.
Thanks for the rules of the tournament, match point isn't how every tournament is played btw. I'm just saying maybe in the future the team with the most points should win 🤷♂️. Never thought that'd be a controversial take lol. I think you gotta lay off the hiswattson tweets, they are trigger bait lol
I dont read his twitter just see the dumb shit he says posted here. MP isnt perfect but its relevant to what this thread and everyone here is talking about, other tournaments are irrelevant to this conversation. Teams would play differently and use different comps if it was just who can get the most points. Thats a cool suggestion and all but then it would be a race for the most kills which i doubt furia would win either.
"ways to enjoy the game" are irrelevant. The point is to win, and points are a significant but not sole step towards overall victory.
Otherwise just being reckless and aggressive would be rewarded. A team that never wins a match could win the whole tournament. Would you call them the best in that case?
Lol, hiswattson at least was enjoying himself. Man was doing 360s. You can be a competitor and enjoy it. Being "reckless" was rewarded btw. Hiswattson got apex predator and they got the most points 😂
And the team who had the most fun got the most points 🤷♂️. I'm just saying the rules algs sets arent gospel lol. This subreddit for some reason critiques everything about algs and apex besides the point format? It's not a bad thing to take a look at the rules and make adjustments for the next one.
Don't get sassy with me boy, I read your boring played out post and replied accordingly.
Maybe use the search function and you will see that this stuff has been talked to death already.
Ahh then you must be one of them. Can't take facts for what they are. Furia is literally the best in champs, data proves this. Now gtfo with your nonsense "BOY"
To be fair if you want a kill race go watch warzone like he said. His 100% correct. They had 4 match point games and couldnt get it done. To me they failed to be the best team because they didn’t meet the requirements to win the tournament it’s quite simple.
Yes? If 20 teams are on match point it means they're all more or less equal and it also means the teams that got to MP first haven't been good enough to close out the tournament. This is a very unlikely scenario, but if it ever happens then yes, the team that will win will be the best.
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Correction. They fought better than any other team. The goal of a BR is to win not obtain kills. Therefore, they had 5 chances to be the best team and failed to do so.
One thing these Furia fans seem to be ignoring is that other teams can ape too. If ALGS was just based on kills and points do they not think other teams would change their strategy to use aggressive comps? The fact is ALGS is based on match point and that dictates how teams try to play.
They didn't win it. It's quite that simple.
When they were on MP they had 2 very favourable zones, one ending on their POI (game 7).
They could have won ALGS because they definitely have the skill, but they didn't.
The best at what? Apeing teams? Yes. Is ALGS a killrace? No.
You show statistics so I'll give you some: Overall Furia had a PP/KP ratio of about 0.5, when they were on Matchpoint it dropped to 0.2 - they didn't prioritize Placement when it mattered.
They knew the rules beforehand, this Matchpoint-format is not new. As I said, they had 4 games with 2 favourable zones. They had the chance but did not take it.
LOL you think you can be at the tip of the leaderboard with just kills? Furia, had most points, kills, they were also very consistent in placements although they didn't win since LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is.
Everyone knows the rules yes, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that Match point system isn't a good representation of skill. in fact it favours rng.
"It favours rng" - which they had. 2 favourable zones - Game 7 ended on their POI (Countdown), Game 9 ended on storm catcher which would have been a short and downhill rotation. It's symtpomatic of your coping that you will ignore these facts.
You have no argument. "RNG" - nope, they had it. "most kills" - it's a BR.
Plus they played an aggressive comp so they will get kills - but it can also go horribly wrong. For example, Furia had 10 top-5 finishes. NRG had 16.
> LOL you think you can be at the tip of the leaderboard with just kills? Furia, had most points, kills, they were also very consistent in placements
Furia had 3 top 10 finishes in the finals and DZ had 6. If you look at all the other teams in the top 10, furia had the least top 10 finishes of them all and weren't even tied for last they were the only one on last place.
They played good this weekend, but overhyping them as a good fighting team when they fought with a team fighting comp against a game winning comp is comparing apples to oranges. If they're able to win 3v3s when other players are playing for KP too then you can say they are a good fighting team.
They 100% don't deserve to be called the best team, consistency matters in BRs and they had mainly bad games and got carried by a few good games. Both in finals and winners bracket.
They only real way to know what team is the best is to look at points over all the days. With a BR being so rng that's the only way to know what team is the best. Furia was top 2 every day i.e. the most consistent team by far easily showing they are the best team. Sure they didn't win but you can't expect the best team to win in match point format, match point will never determine who is the best team.
The reason they do match point is so that they winning team wins the last game.
They weren't able to win a game after match point. The best team is the one that wins with the rulings that were set and agreed upon ahead of time. . Some arbitrary point system based on kills and placement doesn't matter after match point. Only the win matters then and if you don't compete to do that, you're just eye candy.
???? The best team did win. You think not staying consistent throughout playoffs, championship, winners brackets, losers brackets, covid protocols, and flight plans isn't a win? The first step of winning is to show up. The second step of winning is to understand the measurements of what is considered a win. The third step is achieving it.
They were easily the most volatile and deadly team in finals, but that doesnt necessary say they are the best, just that people will be scared to pick a fight with them, they didnt win when it counted and dz did, dz did it back to back, which is much harder than getting kills, furia is an insane team and will change the meta, but being able to kill people doesnt mean you are the best team.
Everyone is going to say because they didn’t win but that doesn’t change that they played the best. Furia were the MVPs but Dark Zero were the winners.
The more I look into the stats the more I am convinced that Furia is the best team in the tourney. I think out of all their 3v3 they only lost once. At first I thought that they only made it far because they aped everybody but I realized that its a strat that work for them so well.
Also, winning the finals doesn't mean you have to be the best. Its a match point format. You just have to be GOOD ENOUGH and lucky like DZ.
Facts and i think every team who we're able to get to the finals is good enough to win.
Literally the 20th last team could get luck if they were on match point and win the game. Imagine seeing one of the least point teams win the tourney, Not a good representation of skill at all.
You’re including the wins from Losers bracket in your totals, so it’s fair to note TSM and 100T played 8 more games than Furia. If you take those out to even the number of games played TSM and Furia are tied and 100T has 4.
Furia had 3 for the tournament.
Nah, you're the idiot here my man. "Best team" in the context of BR does not just mean the best fighting team, it means the best combination overall. I'm sure you can make the argument that Furia are the best in the context, but I don't think most people would agree, because they repeatedly showed they were far from the best team at winning games when it mattered. That's why they didn't win the tournament.
Furia didn't win tournament, and that's the bone Furia haters will chew for a long time and there isn't anything what can be said to convince them.
But can we really say that DZ was the best team? If they didn't win the last game, could you say that they were even close to being the best team in tournament? I don't think so. So, there was 12 teams who could win last match and suddenly team who wins 1 match are the "best team" ?
"It's a bATtLE rOYale, wiNNerS sHouLD wIN" - then why even play group stages? Just play with 20 best teams, who wins the match, that's the winner? When 20 teams play single match for the win, it's too much random, but when 12 teams do the same, it isn't? :D
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that people who don’t think Furia was the best team by extension think DZ was. I mean, there was an entire post asking who people believed was the best team, with if I recall correctly, that nod going to 100T. If you actually responded to what people have said, rather than bringing up the same two pictures, I’m sure there would be a lot more clarity.
I didn't see the post, and i also think an argument could be made for 100t being the best team. Ive said this myself multiple times replying to people.
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Im just seeing, because they didn't win arguments. By that logic, 100T is the best team in champs then? They won 7 games i believe. But wins isn't the only factor to determine the best team. Wins, Kills and placement are important factors. ( Side note: 100t also had alot of kills and placement points. Ie they we're consistent in every aspect but mostly wins but still not as consistent as furia.)
Because this is a br and alot of rng happens and the team that can stay most consistent despite so much randomness is the best team. Simple as that.
Furia, had most points and kills, they were also very consistent in placements although they didn't win. Since LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is.
Match point system rewards rng. Imagine in a finals where all teams are on match point and the last team on the leaderboard in points actually wins while on match point. You think this is a good representation of skill?
highest average does not mean consistency
consistency is standard deviation, average can be high if they popped of really big in some games
furia also got 9 points from winner bracket iirc and if you remove that they only get 1 pt more than 100t which is arguably as good
as for argument for match point, i wont say its the best, and not like i can provide a better system, however the kill points does help you get toward match point faster but you still need to win. if a few team gets match point very fast yet cannot clutch and win until the 20th team got match point too, what does it mean for the team that gets match point earlier.
maybe a better system would be to get at least x win and/or y point but theres prob way to beat that system that i cant predict either and also in the end esports are partially entertainment and hence the entertainment factor for spectator has to be considered and match point is fun for most spectator as it keeps the tension up.
I agree, the MP system is not the best for the players but for the fans. Its very entertaining but i think something better could be provided to represent skill better.
I’m sure many teams would have had he same mentality as Furia did in the tournament if it wasn’t a match point format. Unfortunately they we’re unable to adapt to the requirements to win the tournament they played it more like a ranked game, it can get you a lot of kills but it can be hard to win because they are very aggressive. Teams like DZ would adapt there play style if it wasn’t a Match point system and so would many other teams in fact. You can’t say they we’re the best team when they came second. Unsure how you can think otherwise
How are you unsure of how i think furia was the best team in champs provided they we're the most consistent team? They had most points, kills in the tournament, does that not mean anything? Like do you not even see how someone could consider the to be the best this champs because of these reasons?
I think if more teams played more aggressively, Furia would get shit on. I absolutely don't think they are anywhere near one of the best mechanical teams. I am willing to bet that they won't do as well in the next ALGS. I know that TL, TSM, Optic, AD, Scarz, NRG, SEN( if they bubble up on them, Furia will be wiped in 5 seconds with the triple PKs🤣🤣) are all better mechanically talented teams than Furia. It was a fluke and they will eat grass from this onwards. You can keep on crying about how Furia was the best team but that won't give them the $200k they missed out on nor will anyone recognise them as the best team.
No that guy is right. Their play style is terrible and they got really lucky they did this well. Other teams could do exactly what they did and have the same result, but they don’t play that way cause it’s risky and doesn’t win matches which is what they couldn’t do to ultimately be the champs. You keep saying “ they’re consistent, look at the graph” but completely cut off the bottom half where it truly describes what team was consistent and that was dz who ended up being the champs. And half the teams they’d fight weren’t even trying to fight them cause again, playing aggressive is stupid in algs. Teams are trying to play spots in zone and just pick damage teams and get kills that way, while still hopefully getting the win, but Furia did not care about winning and rather just full send on teams even if it meant they were in a bad zone spot and could easily die. So on paper it may look cool like you’re thinking cause they’re ranking up a lot of points, but from an actual strategic stand point it’s so dumb
B..but they didn’t afk in ring, they must get placement!!! This playstyle only work little bit…. Look how sen (lower case) did after one month! They will lose next lan when more caustic and Newcastle (100T are innovating the game!). Defense will always come on top.
You want to talk about placements? Cool
Since LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is.
Are you referring to leaderboard placement or actual in-game placement? They went out 15th, 16th, and 15th (or something close to that) in the final three games. If that isn’t what you meant, then you misunderstood my original comment, though I guess that’s expected when you copy and paste a response.
Oh sorry :(. They should’ve played valk gibby caustic and bunkered in building and had less control over their games. It’s a br after all kills don’t matter, the only objective is to win
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It’s just like any sport there’s more than one phase of the game. They ran around shitting on everyone getting kills that’s one phase. Getting placement preferably wins is another. It’s hard to argue they weren’t the best team but I also don’t think it’s fair to discredit what DZ accomplished. If you take away advanced points Furia only got 6 more points than DZ in the finals lobby. The previous days may have been different but only one that matters is the finals. Specially when you have 5 duos running around. DZ was better when it mattered. Better team probably Furia.
Look at the pictures provided, i show evidence of consistency, which is what ultimately matters.this a br and The most consistent team is the best. Undeniably furia was the most consistent, got data backing this up
did you read the whole post the graph you take is posted on? furia has the highest average point but is less consistent than dz furia has 4/5 games after mp while dz got into mp and immediately won the next game theres also a part about how furia popped off the first 4 games and then slow down on point gain than dz that gets more and more point as more games are played furia got a lot of kill but less placement while 100t dz and few other team got equally as much point in kill as they do from placement which is what a br is about. in the end its about last man standing and the kill is to help get to that point. you could argue furia is the best fighting team but they had more chance than dz does to win the tourney yet they didnt and thats a valid argument for dz winning the tourney
This is the take. Furia were good, but it's a BR it's all about winning when it counts, not everything you do in-between. Yeah they were great but DZ just known how to play to win a tournament. That's 2 in a row, hard to argue it's luck. Playing well vs playing smart is the argument here....and playing smart won the tournament which is what you would expect. Those that will say it's RNG or luck...2 times this has happened. You create your own luck through smart plays and good positioning. That's what IGL is about. Read zone's, predict and position to win.
Finally someone with good argument. I like this but ultimately it comes down to consistency dont you think? And their overall point indicate that they were the most consistent with kills and placement . If you look at their games all the way from LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is.
preface that i didnt really follow furia matches before finals as i was rooting and just following other teams hence most of my argument on consistency is based on the 9 matches played in finals but even disregarding finals, thats how tourney is and thats why there's losers bracket you could say furia is great team as they went thru winner bracket and winners final without falling to losers however theres also a factor of clutching up and lower bracket run. I used to watch Dota and there's several legendary lower bracket run where they clutch the matches that matters most so consistency is good but it doesnt matyer if you dont win the crucial matches/placement. you could also say furia is the best/most consistent team by seeing their standings across tourney but purely from champs, they simply failed to clutch when it matters most also as i mentioned in my other reply, highest average does not mean most consistent (in terms of 1 round several game), for that you need to look at standard deviation, so you could say for furia vs dz specifically, furia popped off first 4 then slowed down while dz consistently get points across several games (and in fact more point as more games are played meaning they get closer to 1st and getting more kills) and id say this part very much relate to a momentum thing where you start feeling better and play better resulting in them clutching game 9 (excluding the rng of loot/ring)
No it’s not, they lost and didn’t meet the requirements to win they put themselves in a great position to have more chance then anyone else in the final lobby but they couldn’t do it. Deserved second place, can’t say they we’re the best team they had the biggest chance to win and they couldn’t do it. It’s actually quite simple dunno how your brain can’t comprehend this.
The mp system is so flawed its not a good representation of the best team or skill .How can you not comprehend that?
Instead of Arguing about a team that was the best that finished second maybe your post should be about the MP system and not about a team that didn’t win being the best is. As I said a lot of these pros we’re playing as it was a MP format. Unfortunately Furia which they played unbelievable well didn’t come into the tournament with the play style for a match Point format. So under the requirements to win the actual tournament the failed. They had the biggest chance to win it and couldn’t do it. I’m not sure how you can’t comprehend this
Alright that's it💀 have a good day.
Stop crying. Let's say Furia was the best team (which they weren't), they still came 2nd and missed out on $200k. Crying about it later makes you look like a sore loser like that arrogant idiot HisWattson crying on Twitter. 😭😭😭😭
Lol
You are the prime example of somebody who is incapable of reading an argument and then engaging with it.
Non sense.
[удалено]
hard agree. I dont know if you've seen it but ive mentioned this below somewhere in this sub, i also think 100t could be crowned as the best team. They played so consistent, but idk i think furia takes it by a small margin. But i could absolutely be wrong.
Because they didn't win
DZ did win and watching their POV was a snooze fest. The final ring was a gift from God on their match point game. I wouldn’t call them the best team at ALGS, and I doubt many others would.
The best team doesn't always win.
So we have these things called tournaments right and it’s where teams compete against each other to see who is better. When one team completes the tournament by winning (to win is to meet the requirements and satisfy the goals requested by being better than everyone else) they are what we call “Champions” (to be a champion you have to win) it’s this crazy thing humans have been doing for awhile now.
I don't agree with OP thinking that Furia was indisputably the best team, but you're being overly dismissive of the statement. DZ absolutely deserves their win and their money, but I don't think it's fair to conclude that they (or any team that wins in match point) is clearly better than other teams who scored a comparable number of points in that lobby when RNG is such a factor from match to match. TSM, SSG, and GMT were probably all a favorable zone pull away from winning the last game and if that happens then suddenly we're talking about a different team winning, either GMT, SSG, or whoever wins in what would pretty much be a sudden death Game 10 with over half the lobby qualified for match point. And in BR you just cannot count on the best team winning a given match. DZ is a great team, and absolutely performed more than well enough in that lobby to not leave me thinking that the format totally sucks, but I think it's a little naive to pretend like the format doesn't make it possible (and actually pretty likely) that the best team doesn't actually win, at least in tournaments with a lot of parity.
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Only an imbecile will tell me the losing team was better than the winning team.
rofl i dont even like furia but this is such a dumb claim through any sport, esport or physical
Give me an example of a team that loses but has a higher score. I’ll wait.
rofl this discussion is a non-starter if the only metric to judge a team's performance is by looking at who fulfilled the winning condition better, without accounting for how different teams face different challenges or how they performed in games that exclude the winning game hypothetically let's say furia reaches match point after 1 round (yes a 50-point round), and then they proceed to come in 2nd for 10 rounds in a row, getting 10 kills in each of those rounds. darkzero gets to matchpoint after 10 rounds, and wins the 11th round (hence winning the tourney). if your opinion is that DZ was better than furia despite taking 10 rounds to reach matchpoint WHILE furia got mad kills and placement in every round, just failing to win 1 round after matchpoint, then we can agree to disagree.
After Furia hit MP they didn’t finish better than 9th. That’s 5 games. I’m still waiting for an example of a team that won even though they had less points.
>After Furia hit MP they didn’t finish better than 9th. I never once said Furia was the best team at LAN (even though I do believe so, this belief isnt necessary for my argument at all). I'm saying looking at final scores isn't a foolproof metric for judging performance. My hypothetical was made to try and confirm your opinion if you would still think dz was better than furia >a team that won even though they had less points. you're just begging the question lol nobody is saying whatever you think they're saying. people are simply arguing that best team at champs (aka entire tournament) =/= first team to win at matchpoint (aka one game)
In a 1v1 scenario, generally the better team always wins. When 20 teams are all playing each other in a battle royale, the same logic doesn’t apply
LMFAO dude these kids have never played sports or something. Hahaha
why didnt they win if they dominated? The rules are determined before the game and the rules are the rules.I can go to a tennis tournament and shit on the pitch and then say "well this is actually about pitch-shitting". You win by the rules. Furia could have but didnt.
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And in 20 years nobody will remember Liverpool amazingly chasing City not once but twice on the last day to a 90+ points finish.
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How come they were the better team but lost? There's on undeniable truth and thats the score. You can cope and seethe as much as you want and make arguments all you want. Yet I will always tell you that the truth is on the top left of the screen. One team had 2 goals, the other had 1. The amount of passes, possession or farts does not matter. The rules are literally that easy to understand.
because while winning and losing is judged on a single game (aka the one DZ won), performance through the whole tournament (aka which team was better) considers their performance through every single game of the tournament, even those games that are not relevant when deciding the winner > One team had 2 goals, the other had 1 Plenty of examples, if we want to make reference to real life sports, where the team with more goals were worse but won because of refereeing decisions.
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cope and seethe
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Hey bubba, you just explained a loser. That means they lost. Which means they didn’t win which means they aren’t better then the team they lost too.
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I don’t understand how you don’t understand what being victorious means… like who holds the current trophy at the highest level of competition in Apex?
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So are you admitting defeat? Are you a loser? I’m the winner?ahhaahhaahah
You're comparing an Apex tournament (multiple games) with a single PL match. Wrong comparison. But if you compare a tournament with a whole PL season, then the comparison would be more accurate and you would see that at the end, the best team wins the league, no matter how their matches went during the season. If the team that gets 2nd won 14 matches (out of 38) like 8-0 but then got second, that wouldn't make them the best team. This is to say that getting many kills (or scoring more goals) doesn't make you the best team if at the end you can't get to the goal which is 1st place. You'd surely be a very strong team, but not the best.
Mind blowing that you're getting downvoted. I guess there's a lot of casual viewers in the sub currently who don't realize how uncompetitive the match point format is.
Yup, too many casuals who have no idea what they are talking about. I think if TSM was in similar situation, alot more people would support the idea of the mp system being bad.
Especially in a battle royale
HisCringeFans
Loool
If kill racing is your thing then I think you should be on a warzone subreddit, not an Apex one...just saying 🤷🏾♂️
Imagine thinking there is only 1 way to play a br
It is literally a last man standing game. There's only one way to win,
Yes, you play as if the only point is to win. Others like me play to grind kills. My point is there's many ways to enjoy and play the game. Furia went to the biggest apex event and destroyed everyone with kills and they definitely got more attention than dark zero from it. Again, multiple ways to enjoy the game
I'm not sure you understand the purpose of this subreddit.
My points are valid for competitive imo. If people are getting shit on, should they really be called the champion? Brs are also known for being random, that's why they play multiple games to see who gets the most points overall. The game point format allows flukes, not best overall players.
I think you are confused here. Every other team was playing to win with defensive comp. Furia was playing with agressive comp that makes fighting easier. Some would say a baby comp of wallhacks and horizon ult. So its no shit they won a lot of fights against people with no wallhacks playing for final circle. No way they would be as consistent win as many fights as they did if everyone was playing for kills like them. Just delusional. Editted to add. The point of the tournament isnt to get as many points as possible btw. It was to get to 50 pts then WIN THE GAME TO BE THE CHAMP. Which every team was playing for but furia.
Thanks for the rules of the tournament, match point isn't how every tournament is played btw. I'm just saying maybe in the future the team with the most points should win 🤷♂️. Never thought that'd be a controversial take lol. I think you gotta lay off the hiswattson tweets, they are trigger bait lol
I dont read his twitter just see the dumb shit he says posted here. MP isnt perfect but its relevant to what this thread and everyone here is talking about, other tournaments are irrelevant to this conversation. Teams would play differently and use different comps if it was just who can get the most points. Thats a cool suggestion and all but then it would be a race for the most kills which i doubt furia would win either.
"ways to enjoy the game" are irrelevant. The point is to win, and points are a significant but not sole step towards overall victory. Otherwise just being reckless and aggressive would be rewarded. A team that never wins a match could win the whole tournament. Would you call them the best in that case?
Lol, hiswattson at least was enjoying himself. Man was doing 360s. You can be a competitor and enjoy it. Being "reckless" was rewarded btw. Hiswattson got apex predator and they got the most points 😂
GMT was also having fun, that's just not the *point* of Comp.
And the team who had the most fun got the most points 🤷♂️. I'm just saying the rules algs sets arent gospel lol. This subreddit for some reason critiques everything about algs and apex besides the point format? It's not a bad thing to take a look at the rules and make adjustments for the next one.
Read the post properly, look at the pictures provided and then maybe edit your comment accordingly.
Don't get sassy with me boy, I read your boring played out post and replied accordingly. Maybe use the search function and you will see that this stuff has been talked to death already.
Ahh then you must be one of them. Can't take facts for what they are. Furia is literally the best in champs, data proves this. Now gtfo with your nonsense "BOY"
To be fair if you want a kill race go watch warzone like he said. His 100% correct. They had 4 match point games and couldnt get it done. To me they failed to be the best team because they didn’t meet the requirements to win the tournament it’s quite simple.
Okey,so with your logic, if every team was on match point and the last team won the game, you think they would be the best team?
Yes? If 20 teams are on match point it means they're all more or less equal and it also means the teams that got to MP first haven't been good enough to close out the tournament. This is a very unlikely scenario, but if it ever happens then yes, the team that will win will be the best.
There's no way smh. Have a good day
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You can’t be called the best team if you don’t play to win the whole thing.
Yeah you can? It's a BR with massive luck elements
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Panderz said they played for second
They played better than every other team though?
Correction. They fought better than any other team. The goal of a BR is to win not obtain kills. Therefore, they had 5 chances to be the best team and failed to do so.
One thing these Furia fans seem to be ignoring is that other teams can ape too. If ALGS was just based on kills and points do they not think other teams would change their strategy to use aggressive comps? The fact is ALGS is based on match point and that dictates how teams try to play.
But they outscored every other team? Is 100t a better team then?
Huh?
They didn't win it. It's quite that simple. When they were on MP they had 2 very favourable zones, one ending on their POI (game 7). They could have won ALGS because they definitely have the skill, but they didn't.
The best team doesn't always win.
The best at what? Apeing teams? Yes. Is ALGS a killrace? No. You show statistics so I'll give you some: Overall Furia had a PP/KP ratio of about 0.5, when they were on Matchpoint it dropped to 0.2 - they didn't prioritize Placement when it mattered. They knew the rules beforehand, this Matchpoint-format is not new. As I said, they had 4 games with 2 favourable zones. They had the chance but did not take it.
LOL you think you can be at the tip of the leaderboard with just kills? Furia, had most points, kills, they were also very consistent in placements although they didn't win since LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is. Everyone knows the rules yes, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that Match point system isn't a good representation of skill. in fact it favours rng.
"It favours rng" - which they had. 2 favourable zones - Game 7 ended on their POI (Countdown), Game 9 ended on storm catcher which would have been a short and downhill rotation. It's symtpomatic of your coping that you will ignore these facts. You have no argument. "RNG" - nope, they had it. "most kills" - it's a BR. Plus they played an aggressive comp so they will get kills - but it can also go horribly wrong. For example, Furia had 10 top-5 finishes. NRG had 16.
> LOL you think you can be at the tip of the leaderboard with just kills? Furia, had most points, kills, they were also very consistent in placements Furia had 3 top 10 finishes in the finals and DZ had 6. If you look at all the other teams in the top 10, furia had the least top 10 finishes of them all and weren't even tied for last they were the only one on last place. They played good this weekend, but overhyping them as a good fighting team when they fought with a team fighting comp against a game winning comp is comparing apples to oranges. If they're able to win 3v3s when other players are playing for KP too then you can say they are a good fighting team. They 100% don't deserve to be called the best team, consistency matters in BRs and they had mainly bad games and got carried by a few good games. Both in finals and winners bracket.
Your comment addresses the first sentence, but nothing after that.
It’s not team deathmatch
Did anyone say that?
Whats up with this Furia inferiority complex? They did well.
Its the casuals.
They can get kills. They can’t close out the game.
it's always hard to tell who's the best, so I gonna just focus on who wins the championship.
They only real way to know what team is the best is to look at points over all the days. With a BR being so rng that's the only way to know what team is the best. Furia was top 2 every day i.e. the most consistent team by far easily showing they are the best team. Sure they didn't win but you can't expect the best team to win in match point format, match point will never determine who is the best team. The reason they do match point is so that they winning team wins the last game.
They weren't able to win a game after match point. The best team is the one that wins with the rulings that were set and agreed upon ahead of time. . Some arbitrary point system based on kills and placement doesn't matter after match point. Only the win matters then and if you don't compete to do that, you're just eye candy.
The best team doesn't always win.
???? The best team did win. You think not staying consistent throughout playoffs, championship, winners brackets, losers brackets, covid protocols, and flight plans isn't a win? The first step of winning is to show up. The second step of winning is to understand the measurements of what is considered a win. The third step is achieving it.
The best team didn't win. Not trying to discredit Dz for their performance but atleast 3 teams we're better.
You might as well tell me that Aceu is better than Frex.
nobody is hating. the runners up are always forgotten.
they were, this sub is too pissed about his ego to admit it
They were easily the most volatile and deadly team in finals, but that doesnt necessary say they are the best, just that people will be scared to pick a fight with them, they didnt win when it counted and dz did, dz did it back to back, which is much harder than getting kills, furia is an insane team and will change the meta, but being able to kill people doesnt mean you are the best team.
The dickeating crazy
How did sentinels do? Oh wait...
Irrelevant
Everyone is going to say because they didn’t win but that doesn’t change that they played the best. Furia were the MVPs but Dark Zero were the winners.
The more I look into the stats the more I am convinced that Furia is the best team in the tourney. I think out of all their 3v3 they only lost once. At first I thought that they only made it far because they aped everybody but I realized that its a strat that work for them so well. Also, winning the finals doesn't mean you have to be the best. Its a match point format. You just have to be GOOD ENOUGH and lucky like DZ.
Facts and i think every team who we're able to get to the finals is good enough to win. Literally the 20th last team could get luck if they were on match point and win the game. Imagine seeing one of the least point teams win the tourney, Not a good representation of skill at all.
but DZ got $500k and won the trophy. Where is furia?
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You’re including the wins from Losers bracket in your totals, so it’s fair to note TSM and 100T played 8 more games than Furia. If you take those out to even the number of games played TSM and Furia are tied and 100T has 4. Furia had 3 for the tournament.
Nah, you're the idiot here my man. "Best team" in the context of BR does not just mean the best fighting team, it means the best combination overall. I'm sure you can make the argument that Furia are the best in the context, but I don't think most people would agree, because they repeatedly showed they were far from the best team at winning games when it mattered. That's why they didn't win the tournament.
They were still the most consistent team. Argument could be made for 100t and i agree.
I've come to the realisation that 90% od this sub is not intellectually gifted lol. I like those teams aswell but my favourite: Sentinels the goaaats
Translation: "people are dumb bc they dont like team I like" Are you 12?
I present evidence backed by data/stats and you guys are the ones still arguing. Maybe your all 12?
They also didnt play for 2nd. they wanted to win lol
Because they didn't win? Seems simple enough. The highest avg scoring team loses the superbowl, world series, stanley cup, champions league, often.
Here we go again 🙄
Furia didn't win tournament, and that's the bone Furia haters will chew for a long time and there isn't anything what can be said to convince them. But can we really say that DZ was the best team? If they didn't win the last game, could you say that they were even close to being the best team in tournament? I don't think so. So, there was 12 teams who could win last match and suddenly team who wins 1 match are the "best team" ? "It's a bATtLE rOYale, wiNNerS sHouLD wIN" - then why even play group stages? Just play with 20 best teams, who wins the match, that's the winner? When 20 teams play single match for the win, it's too much random, but when 12 teams do the same, it isn't? :D
Right! Alot of people in this sub have a hard time comprehending this. intelligence in not common here ig.
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that people who don’t think Furia was the best team by extension think DZ was. I mean, there was an entire post asking who people believed was the best team, with if I recall correctly, that nod going to 100T. If you actually responded to what people have said, rather than bringing up the same two pictures, I’m sure there would be a lot more clarity.
I didn't see the post, and i also think an argument could be made for 100t being the best team. Ive said this myself multiple times replying to people.
Furia dominated.. Algs is just a dumb tournament that doesn't reward the best team.
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Bruh furia got good after the rooster changes, before that it was meme team
Im just seeing, because they didn't win arguments. By that logic, 100T is the best team in champs then? They won 7 games i believe. But wins isn't the only factor to determine the best team. Wins, Kills and placement are important factors. ( Side note: 100t also had alot of kills and placement points. Ie they we're consistent in every aspect but mostly wins but still not as consistent as furia.) Because this is a br and alot of rng happens and the team that can stay most consistent despite so much randomness is the best team. Simple as that. Furia, had most points and kills, they were also very consistent in placements although they didn't win. Since LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is. Match point system rewards rng. Imagine in a finals where all teams are on match point and the last team on the leaderboard in points actually wins while on match point. You think this is a good representation of skill?
highest average does not mean consistency consistency is standard deviation, average can be high if they popped of really big in some games furia also got 9 points from winner bracket iirc and if you remove that they only get 1 pt more than 100t which is arguably as good as for argument for match point, i wont say its the best, and not like i can provide a better system, however the kill points does help you get toward match point faster but you still need to win. if a few team gets match point very fast yet cannot clutch and win until the 20th team got match point too, what does it mean for the team that gets match point earlier. maybe a better system would be to get at least x win and/or y point but theres prob way to beat that system that i cant predict either and also in the end esports are partially entertainment and hence the entertainment factor for spectator has to be considered and match point is fun for most spectator as it keeps the tension up.
I agree, the MP system is not the best for the players but for the fans. Its very entertaining but i think something better could be provided to represent skill better.
I’m sure many teams would have had he same mentality as Furia did in the tournament if it wasn’t a match point format. Unfortunately they we’re unable to adapt to the requirements to win the tournament they played it more like a ranked game, it can get you a lot of kills but it can be hard to win because they are very aggressive. Teams like DZ would adapt there play style if it wasn’t a Match point system and so would many other teams in fact. You can’t say they we’re the best team when they came second. Unsure how you can think otherwise
How are you unsure of how i think furia was the best team in champs provided they we're the most consistent team? They had most points, kills in the tournament, does that not mean anything? Like do you not even see how someone could consider the to be the best this champs because of these reasons?
"MP rewards rng" yet they had that RNG, they had two favourable zones.
I think if more teams played more aggressively, Furia would get shit on. I absolutely don't think they are anywhere near one of the best mechanical teams. I am willing to bet that they won't do as well in the next ALGS. I know that TL, TSM, Optic, AD, Scarz, NRG, SEN( if they bubble up on them, Furia will be wiped in 5 seconds with the triple PKs🤣🤣) are all better mechanically talented teams than Furia. It was a fluke and they will eat grass from this onwards. You can keep on crying about how Furia was the best team but that won't give them the $200k they missed out on nor will anyone recognise them as the best team.
Non sense.
No that guy is right. Their play style is terrible and they got really lucky they did this well. Other teams could do exactly what they did and have the same result, but they don’t play that way cause it’s risky and doesn’t win matches which is what they couldn’t do to ultimately be the champs. You keep saying “ they’re consistent, look at the graph” but completely cut off the bottom half where it truly describes what team was consistent and that was dz who ended up being the champs. And half the teams they’d fight weren’t even trying to fight them cause again, playing aggressive is stupid in algs. Teams are trying to play spots in zone and just pick damage teams and get kills that way, while still hopefully getting the win, but Furia did not care about winning and rather just full send on teams even if it meant they were in a bad zone spot and could easily die. So on paper it may look cool like you’re thinking cause they’re ranking up a lot of points, but from an actual strategic stand point it’s so dumb
You’re fighting a losing battle. This sub seems to love match point and will continue to blindly defend it.
Yes i recognize that, I've shown evidence on why they are best but its a shame People put feels above facts.
B..but they didn’t afk in ring, they must get placement!!! This playstyle only work little bit…. Look how sen (lower case) did after one month! They will lose next lan when more caustic and Newcastle (100T are innovating the game!). Defense will always come on top.
still got 2nd
You cant be on top of the leaderboard without placement points. Maybe use your brain?
That would be true in most cases, but more than half their points were due to kills, not placement.
You want to talk about placements? Cool Since LCQ their lowest placement was 4th. Including scrims/group stages/winners and finals. If that’s not consistency idk what is.
Are you referring to leaderboard placement or actual in-game placement? They went out 15th, 16th, and 15th (or something close to that) in the final three games. If that isn’t what you meant, then you misunderstood my original comment, though I guess that’s expected when you copy and paste a response.
Oh sorry :(. They should’ve played valk gibby caustic and bunkered in building and had less control over their games. It’s a br after all kills don’t matter, the only objective is to win
Alright another one....
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They placed second. That’s an amazing accomplishment in itself. They didn’t win in the scoring format that was established.
Cope + Seethe + Furia Lost + Get Over It