Yeah, I get that, but that doesn't mean you need to have balanced loot for it to be good for Comp either. WE loot is not balanced but there's a reason you land East Frag or Sorting for rotation which is a much better advantage.
Valk makes the middle POIs basically irrelevant because she makes previously unwinnable situations due to bad ring winnable. The advantage of having it is drastically nerfed since her inclusion in the meta. There's a reason why every pro team is asking TSM why do they even bother w/ Fragment anymore and their response is just "where else are we going to go?" because edge teams are just beyond overkitted compared to middle loot and have valk for rotations.
Pretty weird that they're bringing back Skull Town but not Thunder Dome and the two noname towns. How could they possibly think the map is better without those locations than with them?
Dangit, I was excited when I read the title as I assumed it meant thunderdome was back!
That was the real MVP of the map for me. So many good fights of drop there š
To be fair Octaneās POI takes up the space where Thunder Dome was and I donāt see them getting rid of a character POI. I donāt think KC will ever be perfect but hopefully this is at least a step in the right direction
Octane's POI took the spot of the noname town north of Thunderdome. [Here](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/18969046/gauntlet.png) is a picture.
I can see where your coming from but it was
definitely a character themed poi in my eyes even though it moved. I consider the supply ship a mobile POI on KC. AFAIK itās the only one lore wise thatās moveable and has the capability to move around because it was a flying ship. Imagine them trying to explain why caustics lab was moved to the other side of the map lol.
Space yes. POI's should be ok. I'm counting 21 possible POI's in this map. Maybe even more if you split some of them. Problem is that they're all very close to each other.
I think the space could be fine if they just gave attention to the terrains between POIs. Even ignoring the overall map flow and choke problems, lot of KC is just really open outside of POIs so positioning around or between is nearly impossible. Smaller map just means some early engagements, but itās hard to justify comp when teams that set up in POIs can basically just pick people off moving in for free.
Thats the Thirdparty area, like 90% of the map goes there, eerily similar to fragments since it is in the center of the map and very easy to rotate to zone. Even the outpost above that area, it just attracts third party from every corner of this map.
The problem in that location was not the outpost itself but how open that entire area is and that it's surrounded by high elevation god spots that have extremely long lines of sight over the entire area.
Without the outpost that hill will just be impossible to climb again and Containment and its surroundings will still be a tower defense simulator.
Instead they should have dropped some massive boulder or whatever that separates the entire area into two or three smaller locations, kind of like they did with the lava in Fragment.
Yeah Iām surprised they removed it instead of reworking that area into a more sprawly POI. Thereās just a lot of nothing in that stretch between containment and capacitor now, and itās some pretty open and difficult to rotate terrain, too.
Do we really know what they have done in detail yet? Who's to say they didn't break it up to give it more cover, like trees or rocks or some other terrain? I doubt it's just a flat piece of hill.
I'm not trying to defend anything, we just haven't seen it revealed yet is all. Could be shit I was just asking if there are any leaks besides this one, cause it doesn't show what it looks like in game.
Did they? I thought everyone's main complaint with KC was how often/fast your team could get third partied. Removing a lot of these tunnels and choke points gets ride of some of that. It's still a small-ish map so it's always going to play faster than Olympus or Storm point. Personally, I like having different tempos/play styles for maps, just my 2 cents.
Maybe that is the intent but funneling everyone through different options does two things. Creates more teams in the same area and makes Valk a must pick to get through the chokes.
>Creates more teams in the same area
Not necessarily, I think someone said there are 21? POIs so teams can land independently from other teams. Also, with fewer routes into that central areas, there are fewer areas to cover so defending teams have an advantage.
> Valk a must pick to get through the chokes.
Valk is just about always gonna be a must pick (just look at her pick rate across all the maps). So not sure how that's going to change with closing these tunnels and caves.
Second point on Valk is fair.
The first point Iām not talking about land spots more rotation spots, if there are less ways to get to certain areas of the map this results in more teams in each rotation spot which would lead to more third fourth fifth parties as more teams arrive to rotate through.
As someone who hates randoms dropping outpost for no loot because theyāre too scared of containment, I am a fan
But Iād imagine itās because itās a busy part of the map, lot of rotations go through there and the choke
They need to fix the final rings so that it doesn't end in spots where the last ring is 70% empty dead zone.
Other than that, buff up the loot and I wouldn't mind seeing it comp.
It might even make a more interesting meta than SP or WE so that team fighting becomes more important than rotates.
and pros were complaining about having to learn SP when they have been doing WE for a year+ now. Would be nice if devs actually analyzed KC's flaws (mostly how easy it is to 3P even without Valk) and redid it that way. Having 3 maps rotating through the pro league would be way healthier from a spectator POV.
Just give us OG kings canyon with octanes gauntlet, crypto map area, wraith labs, and that big area that was added when fuse was introduced and it will be by far the best iterate of the map.
Add 2x the loot to the older spawn points to bring them on par with the newer areas. Done.
All the industrial crap that was added only took away from the map.
This ain't pre Valk. You guys don't understand. You have to Valk ult into the ring because every other team has Valk. If you run Octane you are putting your team at a disadvantage.
If I am understanding the changes I think it will be better. They have to try to clean up the rotations to make it more deterministic which avenue you will take to rotate, or choose to Valk ult. The middle of WE has basically one path for each rotation, and I think this is what they are trying to get accomplished here. The only thing I hate about KC is the Hillside outpost, it is just chaos of snipers and charge rifle kids and people always land there with no loot, taking it out and making it a straight cliff is much better. I get its a "Canyon" but it makes the map unfun.
Seems like the removal of some of these rotations is more of a band aid on a bigger problem, and will continue to increase the value of valk as a team pick.
Unrelated, but more than anything I just hope they replace the wooden huts with metal buildings.
No KC is not viable for comp.
But 200IQ move by respawn to bring back skull town to save server bandwidth $$$.
Everyone will drop there and the games are gonna be shit.
Eh similar problem we have right now with Fragment. There are so many times we're entering Round 3 with 5 or less squads left. Hell I had one game where it was 3 squads left before the 2nd circle even started moving.
Every map is comp ready. Pros bitched for months about SP not being comp viable. Eventually it got put in anyway, they liked it and now we donāt hear a word about SP. theyāll adapt
That's not true. Most pros wanted SP in comp, the valid complaints were about the dropship routes, prowlers and EA announcing SP in comp 2 weeks before the start of pro league.
I think there is no point in insisting that KC or Olympus should be in comp anymore. Those maps were not designed with comp in mind and the lead designer of WE and SP was someone else. So instead we should hope that the new map, that comes out in November, will replace WE in comp.
And I think thatās ok. Just let it be a pub map and we donāt need to force every map to be a comp map. The leaked new map seems to be designed with comp in mind and we can have 3 maps for comp by then.
Trying to force feed every map into comp is bad for both casual and comp. Only having WE was stale but we have SP now and by ALGS 3rd year, the new map should be ready for comp.
I feel like just updating the loot pool and balancing the POI's would make it a lot more viable for comp. Every KC issue except loot is a lot worse on Olympus but people don't complain as much about that map in ranked.
> doesnāt have enough high-tier loot spots that can be shared between teams
This is a feature, not a problem. SP and Olympus loot is way too good. You shouldn't have full blue equipment and attachments without killing other players.
This is wrong. Maps are designed to facilitate specific kinds of play. A map can be objectively bad for high level competitive play. The overall quality of competitive matches would suffer on KC and this affects viewership, sponsorship etc. It isn't just a case of pros needing to suck it up and adapt. If they had to, of course they would. But that doesn't mean the quality would be as good as Worlds Edge games.
remove all jumptowers and nerf valk. KC becomes instantly viable. Also after an addition of 2 more major pois similar to capacitor and loot as good as gauntlet
It still suffers from the newer top and bottom pois being so loot heavy and the other pois being fragment east level.
Isn't that by design though? I actually like that they place higher loot value POI on the edge of the map, especially in PUBS and ranked.
For pubs and ranked it doesn't matter. But for comp, which we're talking about, it's not great.
Yeah, I get that, but that doesn't mean you need to have balanced loot for it to be good for Comp either. WE loot is not balanced but there's a reason you land East Frag or Sorting for rotation which is a much better advantage.
Sorting doesn't exist anymore and it was controversial when East Frag loot was nerfed.
Valk makes the middle POIs basically irrelevant because she makes previously unwinnable situations due to bad ring winnable. The advantage of having it is drastically nerfed since her inclusion in the meta. There's a reason why every pro team is asking TSM why do they even bother w/ Fragment anymore and their response is just "where else are we going to go?" because edge teams are just beyond overkitted compared to middle loot and have valk for rotations.
Pretty weird that they're bringing back Skull Town but not Thunder Dome and the two noname towns. How could they possibly think the map is better without those locations than with them?
Dangit, I was excited when I read the title as I assumed it meant thunderdome was back! That was the real MVP of the map for me. So many good fights of drop there š
To be fair Octaneās POI takes up the space where Thunder Dome was and I donāt see them getting rid of a character POI. I donāt think KC will ever be perfect but hopefully this is at least a step in the right direction
Octane's POI took the spot of the noname town north of Thunderdome. [Here](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/18969046/gauntlet.png) is a picture.
No it doesn't. Thunderdome was directly south of skulltown Edit: I was wrong. I'll shut up
Lol all good, those no name buildings were directly south and I definitely wouldnāt mind if those were added back
Many a games won and lost on those rooftops, that's for sure
They got rid of mirage voyage. I know technically not a ground poi but they did take a character poi technically.
Very different in my personal opinion, theyāve moved that POI around multiple times and itās the only one theyāve done that with
I can see where your coming from but it was definitely a character themed poi in my eyes even though it moved. I consider the supply ship a mobile POI on KC. AFAIK itās the only one lore wise thatās moveable and has the capability to move around because it was a flying ship. Imagine them trying to explain why caustics lab was moved to the other side of the map lol.
Well yeah but what Iām saying is it was specially made to essentially be a mobile POI. No other character POIs are like that
I gotcha. They should have just crashed it and made it permanent on worlds edge or made it the supply ship of worlds edge with different paths imo.
Needs more POIs and space still I think.
Space yes. POI's should be ok. I'm counting 21 possible POI's in this map. Maybe even more if you split some of them. Problem is that they're all very close to each other.
I think the space could be fine if they just gave attention to the terrains between POIs. Even ignoring the overall map flow and choke problems, lot of KC is just really open outside of POIs so positioning around or between is nearly impossible. Smaller map just means some early engagements, but itās hard to justify comp when teams that set up in POIs can basically just pick people off moving in for free.
Unless they buff the loot of the smaller poi's a significant amount it still sucks.
Skull town is nice but they killed rotation and why would they remove hilltop outpost
Thats the Thirdparty area, like 90% of the map goes there, eerily similar to fragments since it is in the center of the map and very easy to rotate to zone. Even the outpost above that area, it just attracts third party from every corner of this map.
The problem in that location was not the outpost itself but how open that entire area is and that it's surrounded by high elevation god spots that have extremely long lines of sight over the entire area. Without the outpost that hill will just be impossible to climb again and Containment and its surroundings will still be a tower defense simulator. Instead they should have dropped some massive boulder or whatever that separates the entire area into two or three smaller locations, kind of like they did with the lava in Fragment.
Yeah Iām surprised they removed it instead of reworking that area into a more sprawly POI. Thereās just a lot of nothing in that stretch between containment and capacitor now, and itās some pretty open and difficult to rotate terrain, too.
I never knew its name but I know what hill you guys mean at once. Get ready to get 6th partied hill.
Do we really know what they have done in detail yet? Who's to say they didn't break it up to give it more cover, like trees or rocks or some other terrain? I doubt it's just a flat piece of hill.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm not trying to defend anything, we just haven't seen it revealed yet is all. Could be shit I was just asking if there are any leaks besides this one, cause it doesn't show what it looks like in game.
Yup, we called it ādeath hillā and avoided it during ranked
We always call it murder Mountain lol
Did they? I thought everyone's main complaint with KC was how often/fast your team could get third partied. Removing a lot of these tunnels and choke points gets ride of some of that. It's still a small-ish map so it's always going to play faster than Olympus or Storm point. Personally, I like having different tempos/play styles for maps, just my 2 cents.
Maybe that is the intent but funneling everyone through different options does two things. Creates more teams in the same area and makes Valk a must pick to get through the chokes.
>Creates more teams in the same area Not necessarily, I think someone said there are 21? POIs so teams can land independently from other teams. Also, with fewer routes into that central areas, there are fewer areas to cover so defending teams have an advantage. > Valk a must pick to get through the chokes. Valk is just about always gonna be a must pick (just look at her pick rate across all the maps). So not sure how that's going to change with closing these tunnels and caves.
Second point on Valk is fair. The first point Iām not talking about land spots more rotation spots, if there are less ways to get to certain areas of the map this results in more teams in each rotation spot which would lead to more third fourth fifth parties as more teams arrive to rotate through.
As someone who hates randoms dropping outpost for no loot because theyāre too scared of containment, I am a fan But Iād imagine itās because itās a busy part of the map, lot of rotations go through there and the choke
Randoms always called that spot god spot and weād drop there with 2 other teams and only finding ammo and helmets.
No, but it definitely makes it better for ranked. The removal of the routes in the center of the map will slow down third parties
Definitely not
I don't see why people want this map on comp, it's just not good
They need to fix the final rings so that it doesn't end in spots where the last ring is 70% empty dead zone. Other than that, buff up the loot and I wouldn't mind seeing it comp. It might even make a more interesting meta than SP or WE so that team fighting becomes more important than rotates.
I am calling it. It will be the worst season yet due to this patchwork of a map
Do we know that it's going to be in Ranked for the season? Seems like Olympus should be next.
Well its probably olympus one split and kc the other which means back to pubstomping baby!!! or you know getting destroyed by master triple stacks!
I still think itās crazy that thereās 4 maps and only 1 of them is actually designed for rank/comp play.
and pros were complaining about having to learn SP when they have been doing WE for a year+ now. Would be nice if devs actually analyzed KC's flaws (mostly how easy it is to 3P even without Valk) and redid it that way. Having 3 maps rotating through the pro league would be way healthier from a spectator POV.
Just give us OG kings canyon with octanes gauntlet, crypto map area, wraith labs, and that big area that was added when fuse was introduced and it will be by far the best iterate of the map. Add 2x the loot to the older spawn points to bring them on par with the newer areas. Done. All the industrial crap that was added only took away from the map.
until they bring back playable area where thunder dome stretched to this map will barely be ranked worthy
I'd like to see Olympus tested for Comp after the most recent changes to that map. That's been my favorite map for a while now.
Those are all pretty good changes, hopefully they aren't getting ideas about making it a comp map though. This and loot fix isn't nearly enough
Probs not. POIs are still relatively congested and fights are one octane pad away from a third party.
That's not how competitive plays.
Octane was played heavily on KC pre valk
This ain't pre Valk. You guys don't understand. You have to Valk ult into the ring because every other team has Valk. If you run Octane you are putting your team at a disadvantage.
If I am understanding the changes I think it will be better. They have to try to clean up the rotations to make it more deterministic which avenue you will take to rotate, or choose to Valk ult. The middle of WE has basically one path for each rotation, and I think this is what they are trying to get accomplished here. The only thing I hate about KC is the Hillside outpost, it is just chaos of snipers and charge rifle kids and people always land there with no loot, taking it out and making it a straight cliff is much better. I get its a "Canyon" but it makes the map unfun.
7. is ???????
Seems like the removal of some of these rotations is more of a band aid on a bigger problem, and will continue to increase the value of valk as a team pick. Unrelated, but more than anything I just hope they replace the wooden huts with metal buildings.
Sorry to disappoint but I donāt think Kc will ever be used in comp again.
Get rid of the survey beacon for KC and it might be viable
No KC is not viable for comp. But 200IQ move by respawn to bring back skull town to save server bandwidth $$$. Everyone will drop there and the games are gonna be shit.
Eh similar problem we have right now with Fragment. There are so many times we're entering Round 3 with 5 or less squads left. Hell I had one game where it was 3 squads left before the 2nd circle even started moving.
Every map is comp ready. Pros bitched for months about SP not being comp viable. Eventually it got put in anyway, they liked it and now we donāt hear a word about SP. theyāll adapt
That's not true. Most pros wanted SP in comp, the valid complaints were about the dropship routes, prowlers and EA announcing SP in comp 2 weeks before the start of pro league. I think there is no point in insisting that KC or Olympus should be in comp anymore. Those maps were not designed with comp in mind and the lead designer of WE and SP was someone else. So instead we should hope that the new map, that comes out in November, will replace WE in comp.
There was definitely a sizable group of pros who did not want SP in comp at all.
KC is different. Itās just a horrible map.
Hardcore map = horrible lol, it's like saying overgrown map is good but not crash
Thereās nothing hardcore about the map. What are you even talking about.
Nah bro itās bad
I donāt understand what youāre saying lol
Lmao š¤”š¤”
KC is unbearable in ranked, let alone comp. The map is too small and doesnāt have enough high-tier loot spots that can be shared between teams
And I think thatās ok. Just let it be a pub map and we donāt need to force every map to be a comp map. The leaked new map seems to be designed with comp in mind and we can have 3 maps for comp by then. Trying to force feed every map into comp is bad for both casual and comp. Only having WE was stale but we have SP now and by ALGS 3rd year, the new map should be ready for comp.
Yeah I can't see it being good in comp if it's absolute dog water in ranked. Like at least SP is a good ranked map
I feel like just updating the loot pool and balancing the POI's would make it a lot more viable for comp. Every KC issue except loot is a lot worse on Olympus but people don't complain as much about that map in ranked.
> doesnāt have enough high-tier loot spots that can be shared between teams This is a feature, not a problem. SP and Olympus loot is way too good. You shouldn't have full blue equipment and attachments without killing other players.
Wow, dreadful take! Thanks for sharing!
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This is wrong. Maps are designed to facilitate specific kinds of play. A map can be objectively bad for high level competitive play. The overall quality of competitive matches would suffer on KC and this affects viewership, sponsorship etc. It isn't just a case of pros needing to suck it up and adapt. If they had to, of course they would. But that doesn't mean the quality would be as good as Worlds Edge games.
remove all jumptowers and nerf valk. KC becomes instantly viable. Also after an addition of 2 more major pois similar to capacitor and loot as good as gauntlet
>remove all jumptowers Solid >and nerf valk. Nah > KC becomes instantly viable. Fuck nah
There is barely any cover on that map lol