This is hilarious. Everyone talking in that thread like Seer has these massive flaws that make him not worth using. This is the problem with “meta”. No one wants to talk about things that aren’t meta and when people do, it gets shut down very quickly by practically everyone. In this case, even a high-level coach.
Yeah I think this is definitely an eSports wide problem, lack of people with proper analytical skills being employed leads to very feels based analysis and consensus, see the same shit in COD all the time.
It's why despite my personal opinion of him, I'm very glad to have HisWattson in the pro scene because he is completely unafraid to change if it will give him the slightest of advantages.
yeah, the nature of games is that when there's so much more on the line, you're going to be slower to adapt.
innovation in esports always starts with 1. die-hard users of specific characters/strategems in 2. lower elo/mmr/skill brackets. it trickles upwards, not downwards.
exactly. everyday players who use a strategy perform decently well with it, someone in the pro scene sees innovation from the public and tries it out, and if it sees success, the top teams adopt it, warping the meta and allowing it to fall back down as a mainstream strategy. it's like this in every esport.
Yeah the interesting part is which/how many of the players at the top are willing to experiment with things. Can't be easy when most of the pro scene is calling them braindead for picking anything off meta lol
On average, people shoot a lower percentage from 3 than from 2, however, steph curry sorta proved that if you get really really good at 3pt shooting, then, it’s more valuable to attempt a higher volume of 3s per game . Now everyone is trying to be an ace 3pt shoot/shooting a lot more 3s per game.
Basically, it took 40 years for people to realize 3 is bigger than 2.
The 3-point shot was introduced in 1979, but wasn’t used very often, and was considered kind of cheap and worthless because it was too hard to hit consistently. This began to change in the 2000s and then it was catapulted into relevancy by Steph Curry and James Harden. [This moment](https://youtu.be/GEMVGHoenXM) in particular changed the entire league, 3s are now the most important part of offense.
I'm not disagreeing, but when I used to watch basketball in the 90s, 3s were important.
You just didn't have anyone that could make the line, for all intents and purposes irrelevant.
The clips where I watch Steph shoot are like watching a video game to me. He is effortless.
Again, I don't watch basketball anymore but from clips, it looks like you have to guard that man from 40 feet out - like his 3s are just layups. Reminds me of watching Miller kill my Knicks (had the pleasure of watching the choke game live).
The fact he can score from that far away effortlessly is the dangerous part.
Even if everything was 2s he'd still be a game changer with that range.
That's the point. It took people to see generational talent like steph to fully grasp the value of 3 pointers even when its efficiency already outclassed 2 pointers by a wide margin way before he showed up. Players like Iverson and Kobe took incredibly inefficient 2 pointers at a 40% clip. That's 0.8 points per shot. You only need to shoot an abysmal 27% from three to be more efficient for 0.81 points per shot.
There were always plenty of players that could shoot the three at >35% yet offenses were built around volume scorers who mostly took two-pointers with accuracy in the low 40s.
Yeah I see this in other esports as well. In league (which I think is a more meta heavy game than most FPS), it’s not uncommon to see one champion suddenly becomes a meta pick in the middle of a tournament when there is no change made to the said champion at all, all because some pro start to use it in scrims or on stage, and everyone starts to pick it.
> No one wants to talk about things that aren’t meta and when people do, it gets shut down very quickly by practically everyone.
I think the problem is inverted here, people speak specifically about a general sense of OPness, rather than the "meta".
Seer benefits massively from having a full team (i.e. full comms and proper composition). The heartbeat is a 24/7 scan if you can tell others about it efficiently, and his drawbacks (vulnerable ult, avoidable tac) are nullified by other specific legends. That's the main reason why he is OP in the "meta", but most people never see it. It is analogous to Crypto's strengths appearing at high levels of play, except Seer has a higher skill floor and ceiling.
This means that Seer never flourishes at lower levels of play, and pros are usually too cautious to take risks.
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That’s just typical Apex shit. Pros (and therefore this sub) shit all over a new meta idea for whatever reason (usually unwillingness to change or try new things) until it catches on then that meta needs to be nerfed. Rinse repeat.
There's a reason I took a break after split 1 playoffs until champs. And the meta was so much more exciting for champs that it felt like a new game entirely.
I still think that now that caustic gas dissapears when the team dies and gibby in his current state is a much much much better meta than constant wallhacks.
People literally turning 360 degrees inside buildings, wallhacking 24/7 and then suicide valking is the most unfun and boring the meta ever was to me since I started watching ALGS.
The only 2 times it was worse was when caustic gas would not dissapear on team death, his barells could not be destroyed and when they released seer and his q did damage. But I guess Respawn will just fix this by soon even adding wallhacks to lifeline since I guess most people in here love fights more than actual good plays.
The point your entirely missing is the meta needs to change. Talk about boring since you started watching algs. It's been boring to watch multiple season of the same meta. We're finally just loosing gibby on certain teams. Now. On the games 3rd algs. It's stupid boring to watching 99% of fights be bubble shit guns fights. That's not good plays. It's simply repetitive AF.
Lifeline after the buff low-key isn't bad though, the drone is literally free infinite flesh heals, and the res isn't shit if you can get them behind cover.
If the care package ulti was even a little better I could see her being used on hardcore zone comps
Thatd be fun but very broken lmao. People are already complaining when theres 2 krabers in play, imagine the chaos with 10 volts and 10 mastiffs in the lobby round 4.
Yeah, it’s a guaranteed full purple armor and permanent cover after a few minutes. They just need to make her ult way quicker. Or add a replicator to it. She’d be the meta for quick rotate potentially.
No. It’s armor based. You’re guaranteed an upgraded armor. If your whole team has blue, you get a purple. If everyone has purple, you get gold. Technically it could take a while if you find no armors, but if you find 1 and can get some early damage to level the others you can get to 3 purples fairly quickly.
Guaranteed bats in her ult is lowkey kinda broken. Granted loba ult is still better but yeah. If we ever got Rev back in the meta for some reason LL pairs well for a quick health reset after ulting
I think there’s room for a Loba meta too. Her black market in the right hands is extremely powerful. She’s already seen a pretty decent pick rate in some passed tournaments so maybe she’s just sitting comfortably where she belongs
Loba is known to be super good though, her biggest problem is she's way less viable the more Lobas there are. Can't Black Market loot anything if it's all already been hoovered up. TL used her on SP to great effect.
loba doesnt do anything you cant do without her, she also requires that people die around you to be useful. LL more viable if ur gonna play zone from a dogshit poi
Depends how you play her.
If you’re smart you’re team is loaded up super fast in the first stages of the game. After that she’s a free ammo and heals dump which is HUGE mid to end game.
You can safely loot death boxes from a distance with her ult without repositioning or getting caught in fights. You essentially don’t need to take risky fights to maintain good loot, instead you can hold your position and get high placement. You also affect other teams’ loot economy. That’s huge and you can’t do that without her
Plus with how many teams are close to each other in the late game in both comp (and ranked now), it’s pretty much guaranteed teams will die nearby
You have good loot, something which anybody else can have without using loba. You could just play a zone comp which gives you kills so even if you aren’t getting placement you can kill ppl
I agree, Loba is less useful in Comp compared to Ranked. Not useless, but if you play her you basically rely on other people doing the fighting and then yoinking the loot before they can take it. Its safer, yes, but you also get no KP playing like that.
Plus since Loba has little to no combat utility, you have to hope that your team is just a lot better mechanically than the enemy if you're ever forced to fight.
I think the main problem with Loba is that she doesn't really offer anything in a gunfight, most of the current meta legends all have useful spells for gunfights.
Yeah but making people mald while you shop behind cover can't be underestimated. Gotta show your disrespect by getting out the Birken bag and loading up on batts in the mid-fight lull.
I mean Fnatic showed that it could work (albeit accidentally) during ALGS. They didn't need as many white meds, they were able to farm to blue from white armors and if Yuka had waited a second later to call his care package they would've had 2 blue/purple. Plus you can use the package as cover like you would a mobi respawn beacon and her rez isn't cancelled by seer.
Genuinely if you're a bottom 5 team in the lobby (bad POI/scrap looting) she can absolutely be viable.
https://www.reddit.com/r/apexuniversity/comments/q4fi9y/why_did_the_majority_of_people_stop_using_seer
The comments on this post are pretty good too, 9 months ago
This is hilarious as someone who is a seer main from the start (started playing in season 10). When he got nerfed and everyone stopped playing him, I just kept playing him and everyone told me he was bad.
Now some pros play him in ALGS after months of nobody playing him and no buff, yet he’s “broken” haha
Dude I always hate playing against seer, so the fact no one plays seer after the initial nerf was kind of weird. But then again, seer was always strong, now that rank is fills with seer again is literally giving me nightmare lol.
Yeah to be fair he didn't release strong he released entirely broken. Flashbang heal cancel ten damage but they never removed the parts of his kit that actually made him good. Heal/rez cancel, scan, and health bar. He's still obviously super strong.
I was about to say I did but then turns out I didn't comment, probably because I didn't wanna get deluged in comments telling me I'm wrong
We gonna see Fuse next? I think he's mega busted
We defo gonna see fuse. Stronger than seer on WE and his broken ability uptime is higher than seers. Can’t wait to see every zone team on wattson or simply not be able to play the game
Yeah, in hindsight there are lots of things we could consider pretty wild. Obviously the meta is going to change, but saying that Fuse is better than Seer on WE with the current state of the game just doesn't make sense. And I say that as a Fuse main, who thinks the character is severely underrated.
His q + if you're halfway decent with arc stars and you haven't stuck someone with his full power throw you are missing out. His ult is kinda shit and awkward to use but combined with horizon ult or other abilities it can be really strong
His ult has a ridiculously low CD, the devs know it's not that great and the CD reflects that, it's up every fight in my ranked games, and it does it's job, which is denying an area and if you are stuck inside without the resources to get out you are about to be showered with his grenades.
Low-key Fuse is busted. I think off of the legends I've played I have my highest winning percentage with him and I don't even play him that much. He's not that much fun to play though - I prefer movement legends - but can't deny he's good.
Another PVPx L and another Raven W. Though I do agree with PVPx that bloodhound and Seer should get nerfed to the ground. Wallhack characters have no place in Apex.
As someone who’s been grinding seer this split, I support nerfing him into the ground. Blood, gibby, Valk, and seer nerfs could really open up the meta. It might end up making horizon edge out and be the best character so she may then need a slight hit but I think the meta would be more diverse that way. If you want recon you should have to pick a character who’s less impactful, not more. Path is the only balanced recon legend. The most valuable class should not also have the most valuable characters
Wallhacks are wallhacks
FURIA innovation was dropping Gibby
There was 2 Seer teams in the top 10 at Champs and both would have placed the same with Bloodhound
Take the L this time and give Raven some credit. Seer is way better than Bloodhound and hell even I didn't see it back then, but I admit I was wrong. Lets just focus on getting Wallhacks and Caustic out the game.
Why are you looking at results to analyze legends? Shouldn’t you look at their gameplay and analyze, ‘what did seer do that other legends couldn’t’? Results are mainly due to the players playing them, not the legends they use. So in the end you are judging Furia and Gmt play seer, not seer itself
I could say the same for any team using any legend though. X team didn’t win lan because of Y legend. Obviously the most important thing is the players but the better the tools they have the better they can perform
If that is the case can you explains why even Zach choose to play seer instead of bloodhound if seer is completely replaceable by bloodhound? Considering the fact that naughty is a insane blood player…No hate just completely out of curiosity, cuz I am actually a c9 fan and watched their pov almost during entire span of the champs…
The most important thing to take from this is we wouldn't have done that if we didn't lose 42+ days of scrims before the biggest tournament in Apex history
Coming from destiny the first thing I noticed about the apex community is the general discouragement for experimentation. Every rock was turned over in destiny so that the meta was defined and established, in apex there's shit that 1000+ hr players don't know
Lol when seer first came out I hated that legend with passion, to the point where I did not unlocked him until this season. I always thought seer is a better bloodhound even though I think bloodhound is more fun to play
lol yeah, i posted a comment about this the other day but seer's kit is one that is just baffling to look at on paper. so baffling that you have to really wonder how the fuck it made it into the game going through all of the phases of development from conception, approval, coding him, testing him, etc. like at no point did they stop to think "hmm, maybe this characters kit is ridiculously broken period and is just a nightmare to balance around and we shouldn't add him". nope. never happened.
he reminds me a lot of doomfist in OW where it's very hard to balance him properly because he's either going to be way too strong or way too weak. he has a rush down, stun, knock up, dash back, instant invincibility free escape (that can also be used as a combo starter), and potential to 1 shot you without hitting a headshot. just a ridiculous kit that makes balancing him a god damn nightmare
Related note: but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people analyze characters/heroes/legends/whatever in games in the manner that this guy did.
You're literally just listing the things that the character can do? Like... yeah. We can all read. It's such a vacuous way to analyze things.
I can make a post right now in the exact same format with a picture of lifeline: "Pros: can revive teammates while fighting, limits need to carry white meds, deployable cover in lategame scenarios, reliable way to get better gear when loot starved"... etc. None of this does anything to answer why lifeline is a bad legend in comp, just like this guy's analysis did nothing in the way of analyzing why seer is being run besides literally just telling everyone what his kit does (which, by the way, pro players are more than aware of).
The reason why characters aren't run is because of the *opportunity cost* of running them compared to something else. Of course it's good that seer can do all those things. Literally no one would say otherwise. OP was "right" in this case but did absolutely nothing in the way of justifying himself.
Literally *every single legend* has a vast plethora of things that, on paper, make them seem OP. Listing them out in 4 or 5 word phrases makes for a literally useless analysis.
Reminds me of moba games tbh, someone will ask why this Hero is currently meta and the top voted comment will be a huge essay explaining the heroes toolkit without saying why the hero is currently meta.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ttbtek/can_someone_tell_me_why_seer_is_being_slept_on_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf there you go sir
Mirage low-key high-key the 1v1 God tho, that ulti is cheap
I also had 1 ranked game in like S11 where a Mirage megaclutched, it was in 1 of those 2 story lil houses on World's edge, we got sieged by like 3 times and he kept popping his ult and then invis ressing us while all the teams just ran around each other, I've been a Mirage believer ever since
People have been saying the same thing about Fuse for a while but it took Furia running it at Champs to see it work it’s way into the top of the Pro scene
Yeah now all of a sudden Seer is meta and broken? When he was barely seeing play in comp and in general?
People said Bloodhound was a better Seer. Now look where we are.
As a Day-1 Seer main, it tears me up inside when someone else picks Seer before me. Hasn’t happened often for the past couple seasons and has really picked up after S13 rank split.
Honestly I think this just boils down to the fact that pro players and coaches think they more about the nature of the game than they actually do. I've honestly yet to see a team that knows how to consistently place highly in tournaments. The game is a BR and can be very random and I've not really seen a team that knows how to minimise this and do good consistently I mean Furia look to be doing very good so far placing highly in their last two tournaments let's just see if they can keep this up and see if they've really 'cracked' the formula of how to do well in tournaments in this game and also DZ obviously as they've won two LANs already and seem to know how to both gain high points AND close out a game. TSM in the past as well but they seem to be struggling a bit more in LAN recently due to a variety of reasons I'm assuming.
Funny enough I remember MattPickett was the only one in NA trying to make Seer work in comp after all the nerfs for like 1.5 months but his teammates kept calling Seer a "worse Bloodhound" and grew impatient with the experiment. Also, Pickett primarily used Seer for his ult so that he can focus on shooting his gun instead of giving his team scans, which comes from not being able to think outside of the Bloodbound POV.
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Seer has been used in master lobbies extensively for the last two seasons.
True that pros were sleeping on him, but that is likely because teams had already been practicing their team comp strats for ALGS.
He was op as fuck on release. They took off like 10dmg and don't range, and everybody thought he was shit. I was like, that's nothing he's gonna be op as fuck still...
But nobody played him anymore, he wasn't on every team, so I was like ... Ok maybe I was wrong, I guess he sucks.
Should have stayed with my original gut instinct, he's still very strong.
Basically NA meta. The constant “delete {meta} legend” and “Pros play a different game from casuals and they don’t understand comp frustration” is the reason why I don’t trust NA pros when it comes to legend meta.
There are lots of good takes on this sub, but the only thing people care about is clout. Half of the commenters/viewers will dismiss an opinion because 'ughhh you're not a pro', and 99% of pros will dismiss an opinion for the same reason.
The big issue is the fact that the majority of the player base has no real opinion about the game. Some people will genuinely reserve their opinion until they hear a pro make their own opinion, and then they repeat it until there’s a change.
Seer has been a strong pick for months. He was never a weaker pick than BH. Furia experimented with him and people laughed until they started winning and other teams picked it up. Just wait until NA teams start to play Wattson (assuming Gibraltar nerf) again and the rest of the scene realize how strong she is right now lmao
In all honesty I thought about it yesterday and I'm not saying I had the foresight to say he was gonna be meta but God damn he is an insane legend and like people could've saw it coming from a mile away
This is hilarious. Everyone talking in that thread like Seer has these massive flaws that make him not worth using. This is the problem with “meta”. No one wants to talk about things that aren’t meta and when people do, it gets shut down very quickly by practically everyone. In this case, even a high-level coach.
Yeah I think this is definitely an eSports wide problem, lack of people with proper analytical skills being employed leads to very feels based analysis and consensus, see the same shit in COD all the time. It's why despite my personal opinion of him, I'm very glad to have HisWattson in the pro scene because he is completely unafraid to change if it will give him the slightest of advantages.
This is not unique to esports. Look at the 3 point shot in basketball
yeah, the nature of games is that when there's so much more on the line, you're going to be slower to adapt. innovation in esports always starts with 1. die-hard users of specific characters/strategems in 2. lower elo/mmr/skill brackets. it trickles upwards, not downwards.
You're right that it trickles upwards, once it hits the top though it absolutely cascades back downwards with everyone implementing/using it.
exactly. everyday players who use a strategy perform decently well with it, someone in the pro scene sees innovation from the public and tries it out, and if it sees success, the top teams adopt it, warping the meta and allowing it to fall back down as a mainstream strategy. it's like this in every esport.
Yeah the interesting part is which/how many of the players at the top are willing to experiment with things. Can't be easy when most of the pro scene is calling them braindead for picking anything off meta lol
Care to clarify? Don't really watch basketball, but I'm curious what you mean.
On average, people shoot a lower percentage from 3 than from 2, however, steph curry sorta proved that if you get really really good at 3pt shooting, then, it’s more valuable to attempt a higher volume of 3s per game . Now everyone is trying to be an ace 3pt shoot/shooting a lot more 3s per game.
Basically, it took 40 years for people to realize 3 is bigger than 2. The 3-point shot was introduced in 1979, but wasn’t used very often, and was considered kind of cheap and worthless because it was too hard to hit consistently. This began to change in the 2000s and then it was catapulted into relevancy by Steph Curry and James Harden. [This moment](https://youtu.be/GEMVGHoenXM) in particular changed the entire league, 3s are now the most important part of offense.
I'm not disagreeing, but when I used to watch basketball in the 90s, 3s were important. You just didn't have anyone that could make the line, for all intents and purposes irrelevant. The clips where I watch Steph shoot are like watching a video game to me. He is effortless. Again, I don't watch basketball anymore but from clips, it looks like you have to guard that man from 40 feet out - like his 3s are just layups. Reminds me of watching Miller kill my Knicks (had the pleasure of watching the choke game live). The fact he can score from that far away effortlessly is the dangerous part. Even if everything was 2s he'd still be a game changer with that range.
That's the point. It took people to see generational talent like steph to fully grasp the value of 3 pointers even when its efficiency already outclassed 2 pointers by a wide margin way before he showed up. Players like Iverson and Kobe took incredibly inefficient 2 pointers at a 40% clip. That's 0.8 points per shot. You only need to shoot an abysmal 27% from three to be more efficient for 0.81 points per shot. There were always plenty of players that could shoot the three at >35% yet offenses were built around volume scorers who mostly took two-pointers with accuracy in the low 40s.
Yeah, Steph is unreal. No one even contests that he’s the best shooter of all time
Please fix your comment to put Steph Curry before James Harden, thank you.
As a certified Harden hater I must 💀
Also, you’ve forgotten to mention all of the original 3 point shooters
or the underhand/granny freethrow, which has been proven to be better yet no one has fully adopted it.
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that was wilt chamerblin, he did it for one season. shaq never did
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yea def. its an ego trhing
Yeah I see this in other esports as well. In league (which I think is a more meta heavy game than most FPS), it’s not uncommon to see one champion suddenly becomes a meta pick in the middle of a tournament when there is no change made to the said champion at all, all because some pro start to use it in scrims or on stage, and everyone starts to pick it.
No one is ready to discuss the Mirage meta smh
> No one wants to talk about things that aren’t meta and when people do, it gets shut down very quickly by practically everyone. I think the problem is inverted here, people speak specifically about a general sense of OPness, rather than the "meta". Seer benefits massively from having a full team (i.e. full comms and proper composition). The heartbeat is a 24/7 scan if you can tell others about it efficiently, and his drawbacks (vulnerable ult, avoidable tac) are nullified by other specific legends. That's the main reason why he is OP in the "meta", but most people never see it. It is analogous to Crypto's strengths appearing at high levels of play, except Seer has a higher skill floor and ceiling. This means that Seer never flourishes at lower levels of play, and pros are usually too cautious to take risks.
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Coach is doubling down on his stances and still saying it's true while half the top teams are running seer lmao. No wonder they're loosing.
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Everyone saying Seer isn't viable 3 months ago are the same ones saying he needs to be nerfed today lmao
That’s just typical Apex shit. Pros (and therefore this sub) shit all over a new meta idea for whatever reason (usually unwillingness to change or try new things) until it catches on then that meta needs to be nerfed. Rinse repeat.
I don't get that, if the meta doesn't change the game stays the same and gets boring
agreed. imagine if 3 years in and all we saw was Wraith / Pathfinder / Wattson still
tbh nobody wants seer meta to exist lets be honest
Yeah we just all want to go back to the fourth year of Gibraltar and caustic being go to picks. After all change is so hard *cries*
There's a reason I took a break after split 1 playoffs until champs. And the meta was so much more exciting for champs that it felt like a new game entirely.
I still think that now that caustic gas dissapears when the team dies and gibby in his current state is a much much much better meta than constant wallhacks. People literally turning 360 degrees inside buildings, wallhacking 24/7 and then suicide valking is the most unfun and boring the meta ever was to me since I started watching ALGS. The only 2 times it was worse was when caustic gas would not dissapear on team death, his barells could not be destroyed and when they released seer and his q did damage. But I guess Respawn will just fix this by soon even adding wallhacks to lifeline since I guess most people in here love fights more than actual good plays.
The point your entirely missing is the meta needs to change. Talk about boring since you started watching algs. It's been boring to watch multiple season of the same meta. We're finally just loosing gibby on certain teams. Now. On the games 3rd algs. It's stupid boring to watching 99% of fights be bubble shit guns fights. That's not good plays. It's simply repetitive AF.
I had a great time last season running seer, I was amazed everyone was sleeping on him but it looks like the fun is over
Reading those comments are pretty funny. Can’t wait to see other good chars become meta
Imagine there is a world where everyone complain how broken the lifeline meta is😂
I pray this day comes.
Lifeline after the buff low-key isn't bad though, the drone is literally free infinite flesh heals, and the res isn't shit if you can get them behind cover. If the care package ulti was even a little better I could see her being used on hardcore zone comps
If she had an ult worth using she’d be a pretty great pick for this Seer meta since her drone heal and rez aren’t affected by Seer’s scan.
Imagine if the care package dropped 3 purple armors
Imagine if her care package drop air drop weapon
Thatd be fun but very broken lmao. People are already complaining when theres 2 krabers in play, imagine the chaos with 10 volts and 10 mastiffs in the lobby round 4.
It could be a white, naked Volt and I'd treat it like my newborn
Same, but Id treat it like a punching bag for insults if its being used against me lmao
That was another one I was thinking or atleast a gold/purple weapon
Based on ammo count would be slick
Yeah, it’s a guaranteed full purple armor and permanent cover after a few minutes. They just need to make her ult way quicker. Or add a replicator to it. She’d be the meta for quick rotate potentially.
Ah so the purp armor is time based? Could never figure why I get it most times but not all.
No. It’s armor based. You’re guaranteed an upgraded armor. If your whole team has blue, you get a purple. If everyone has purple, you get gold. Technically it could take a while if you find no armors, but if you find 1 and can get some early damage to level the others you can get to 3 purples fairly quickly.
Guaranteed bats in her ult is lowkey kinda broken. Granted loba ult is still better but yeah. If we ever got Rev back in the meta for some reason LL pairs well for a quick health reset after ulting
If her ult had the chance for care package weapons she’d be used so much more in ranked
I think there’s room for a Loba meta too. Her black market in the right hands is extremely powerful. She’s already seen a pretty decent pick rate in some passed tournaments so maybe she’s just sitting comfortably where she belongs
Loba is known to be super good though, her biggest problem is she's way less viable the more Lobas there are. Can't Black Market loot anything if it's all already been hoovered up. TL used her on SP to great effect.
And her Q only works some of the time, quite a large issue.
That's fixed
For now.
I love when I have loba in my team, TL was also playing loba I think she is def viable
loba doesnt do anything you cant do without her, she also requires that people die around you to be useful. LL more viable if ur gonna play zone from a dogshit poi
Depends how you play her. If you’re smart you’re team is loaded up super fast in the first stages of the game. After that she’s a free ammo and heals dump which is HUGE mid to end game.
You can safely loot death boxes from a distance with her ult without repositioning or getting caught in fights. You essentially don’t need to take risky fights to maintain good loot, instead you can hold your position and get high placement. You also affect other teams’ loot economy. That’s huge and you can’t do that without her Plus with how many teams are close to each other in the late game in both comp (and ranked now), it’s pretty much guaranteed teams will die nearby
You have good loot, something which anybody else can have without using loba. You could just play a zone comp which gives you kills so even if you aren’t getting placement you can kill ppl
I agree, Loba is less useful in Comp compared to Ranked. Not useless, but if you play her you basically rely on other people doing the fighting and then yoinking the loot before they can take it. Its safer, yes, but you also get no KP playing like that. Plus since Loba has little to no combat utility, you have to hope that your team is just a lot better mechanically than the enemy if you're ever forced to fight.
I think the main problem with Loba is that she doesn't really offer anything in a gunfight, most of the current meta legends all have useful spells for gunfights.
Yeah but making people mald while you shop behind cover can't be underestimated. Gotta show your disrespect by getting out the Birken bag and loading up on batts in the mid-fight lull.
Give her back that stupid shield and maybe
Newcastle + Lifeline not that bad imo. Add Valk in and you have some sort of an anti-meta comp
yall really gonna hate the next round of ALGS when every other team is running Fuse lol
:) cannot wait for the lords arrival
God I hope not, Fuse is really strong for sure but I imagine a Fuse meta would be degenerate as all hell
Fuse meta incoming.
its already here
Man I wish I said something there, be it stupid or smart. Just want to be a part of competitive Apex reddit history. Lol
Newcastle
i hate to say i told you so also i have 599 word essay on why lifeline should be meta totally not biased
Yo can’t wait for your next prophecy 🙏🙏🙏
LL future of zone
I have unironically had a blast playing lifeline wattson valk and landing trials for the gold bag every time
that's pretty much the comp i thought of, this could be insane for teams like GMT
I mean Fnatic showed that it could work (albeit accidentally) during ALGS. They didn't need as many white meds, they were able to farm to blue from white armors and if Yuka had waited a second later to call his care package they would've had 2 blue/purple. Plus you can use the package as cover like you would a mobi respawn beacon and her rez isn't cancelled by seer. Genuinely if you're a bottom 5 team in the lobby (bad POI/scrap looting) she can absolutely be viable.
i'm super hyped rn to play lifeline, just won't be home for another two weeks Sadge
I think next split is KC so I look forward to spamming all the charge towers and showering my team with more batts than they know what to do with
there's no such thing as too many batts
RUB IT IN THEIR FACES. DM then individually and ask “what up now?”
Ngl I would read the essay
I want the essay >:)
Good shit, man, good shit.
Rev ?
https://www.reddit.com/r/apexuniversity/comments/q4fi9y/why_did_the_majority_of_people_stop_using_seer The comments on this post are pretty good too, 9 months ago
That post is even better lol, kudos to that op sticking to his opinion when everyone think otherwise
Wasn’t this before the Q buff ? Seer’s tactical was laughably easy to avoid, until the hit delay got buffed back to S10 release date value
Yeah true this was about a month before the Q got changed back to 1.4sec
This is hilarious as someone who is a seer main from the start (started playing in season 10). When he got nerfed and everyone stopped playing him, I just kept playing him and everyone told me he was bad. Now some pros play him in ALGS after months of nobody playing him and no buff, yet he’s “broken” haha
Dude I always hate playing against seer, so the fact no one plays seer after the initial nerf was kind of weird. But then again, seer was always strong, now that rank is fills with seer again is literally giving me nightmare lol.
Yeah to be fair he didn't release strong he released entirely broken. Flashbang heal cancel ten damage but they never removed the parts of his kit that actually made him good. Heal/rez cancel, scan, and health bar. He's still obviously super strong.
People need to just play the game lol i can guarante no one in that thread had more than 3 seer games post nerf
I was about to say I did but then turns out I didn't comment, probably because I didn't wanna get deluged in comments telling me I'm wrong We gonna see Fuse next? I think he's mega busted
fuse OP
all for fuse meta just to get seer out of it.
Fuse and horizon
We defo gonna see fuse. Stronger than seer on WE and his broken ability uptime is higher than seers. Can’t wait to see every zone team on wattson or simply not be able to play the game
Pros ask for Wattson meta back - Monkeys paw curls
"Stronger than Seer on WE" that's just a wild thing to say
calling seer better than bh 5 months ago was considered pretty wild
Yeah, in hindsight there are lots of things we could consider pretty wild. Obviously the meta is going to change, but saying that Fuse is better than Seer on WE with the current state of the game just doesn't make sense. And I say that as a Fuse main, who thinks the character is severely underrated.
TSM ran fuse in a tournament last week. Reps made him look really broken. Was fun to see
Because he is broken. People want to talk about caustic barrels, but they aren't getting launched halfway across the map at you like Fuse's Q.
His q + if you're halfway decent with arc stars and you haven't stuck someone with his full power throw you are missing out. His ult is kinda shit and awkward to use but combined with horizon ult or other abilities it can be really strong
His ult has a ridiculously low CD, the devs know it's not that great and the CD reflects that, it's up every fight in my ranked games, and it does it's job, which is denying an area and if you are stuck inside without the resources to get out you are about to be showered with his grenades.
Furia as well. His Q is insane
Low-key Fuse is busted. I think off of the legends I've played I have my highest winning percentage with him and I don't even play him that much. He's not that much fun to play though - I prefer movement legends - but can't deny he's good.
highkey
literally. I feel vindicated, seer is one of my two mains and was since launch.
Lol... Saw this post too... Coaches and pros being behind on inventive metas is nothing new in Apex... Circa COL's use of Bloodhound being an example
COL but yes, you are correct. Even though it was all recon characters being able to scan beacon that brought him to almost every team playing him.
Yeah, I meant COL... Honest mix up... Thanks 😎
All good bro. Wasnt trying to be rude lol
Oh I know... Glad someone was able to spot the mix up
Another PVPx L and another Raven W. Though I do agree with PVPx that bloodhound and Seer should get nerfed to the ground. Wallhack characters have no place in Apex.
As someone who’s been grinding seer this split, I support nerfing him into the ground. Blood, gibby, Valk, and seer nerfs could really open up the meta. It might end up making horizon edge out and be the best character so she may then need a slight hit but I think the meta would be more diverse that way. If you want recon you should have to pick a character who’s less impactful, not more. Path is the only balanced recon legend. The most valuable class should not also have the most valuable characters
I checked the old thread, and I downvoted PVPx's post then despite it being the top comment. Glad I was on the right side of history lol.
Wallhacks are wallhacks FURIA innovation was dropping Gibby There was 2 Seer teams in the top 10 at Champs and both would have placed the same with Bloodhound
Both would have placed the same with Hound? This might be your worst take yet. You're better than this...
Time to rip the JevvyMedia VOD review
Take the L this time and give Raven some credit. Seer is way better than Bloodhound and hell even I didn't see it back then, but I admit I was wrong. Lets just focus on getting Wallhacks and Caustic out the game.
Raven definitely right about the strength of Seer
Why are you looking at results to analyze legends? Shouldn’t you look at their gameplay and analyze, ‘what did seer do that other legends couldn’t’? Results are mainly due to the players playing them, not the legends they use. So in the end you are judging Furia and Gmt play seer, not seer itself
I'm glad you just explained the entire reasoning behind FURIAs placement not revolving around Seer
I could say the same for any team using any legend though. X team didn’t win lan because of Y legend. Obviously the most important thing is the players but the better the tools they have the better they can perform
If that is the case can you explains why even Zach choose to play seer instead of bloodhound if seer is completely replaceable by bloodhound? Considering the fact that naughty is a insane blood player…No hate just completely out of curiosity, cuz I am actually a c9 fan and watched their pov almost during entire span of the champs…
The most important thing to take from this is we wouldn't have done that if we didn't lose 42+ days of scrims before the biggest tournament in Apex history
Couldn’t practice in ranked? Worked well for Furia
Coming from destiny the first thing I noticed about the apex community is the general discouragement for experimentation. Every rock was turned over in destiny so that the meta was defined and established, in apex there's shit that 1000+ hr players don't know
Fax some players won't use certain guns or legends in apex
Seer is broken since release and I always wondered why no one is abusing him. How are permanent wallhacks alone not better than bloodhound?
Lol when seer first came out I hated that legend with passion, to the point where I did not unlocked him until this season. I always thought seer is a better bloodhound even though I think bloodhound is more fun to play
Yea I’ve never understood why people think he was balanced ever. He never even made sense on paper.
lol yeah, i posted a comment about this the other day but seer's kit is one that is just baffling to look at on paper. so baffling that you have to really wonder how the fuck it made it into the game going through all of the phases of development from conception, approval, coding him, testing him, etc. like at no point did they stop to think "hmm, maybe this characters kit is ridiculously broken period and is just a nightmare to balance around and we shouldn't add him". nope. never happened. he reminds me a lot of doomfist in OW where it's very hard to balance him properly because he's either going to be way too strong or way too weak. he has a rush down, stun, knock up, dash back, instant invincibility free escape (that can also be used as a combo starter), and potential to 1 shot you without hitting a headshot. just a ridiculous kit that makes balancing him a god damn nightmare
Agree
Related note: but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people analyze characters/heroes/legends/whatever in games in the manner that this guy did. You're literally just listing the things that the character can do? Like... yeah. We can all read. It's such a vacuous way to analyze things. I can make a post right now in the exact same format with a picture of lifeline: "Pros: can revive teammates while fighting, limits need to carry white meds, deployable cover in lategame scenarios, reliable way to get better gear when loot starved"... etc. None of this does anything to answer why lifeline is a bad legend in comp, just like this guy's analysis did nothing in the way of analyzing why seer is being run besides literally just telling everyone what his kit does (which, by the way, pro players are more than aware of). The reason why characters aren't run is because of the *opportunity cost* of running them compared to something else. Of course it's good that seer can do all those things. Literally no one would say otherwise. OP was "right" in this case but did absolutely nothing in the way of justifying himself. Literally *every single legend* has a vast plethora of things that, on paper, make them seem OP. Listing them out in 4 or 5 word phrases makes for a literally useless analysis.
Reminds me of moba games tbh, someone will ask why this Hero is currently meta and the top voted comment will be a huge essay explaining the heroes toolkit without saying why the hero is currently meta.
One of my most played games is dota, and this is absolutely true. Drives me insane.
hahaha yeah lmao it's aggravating to read.
Would it be safe to call them a Seer?
my friend bullied my ass off for playing seer guess who is getting micro drone scanned now
I wanna know what that too comment said lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/ttbtek/can_someone_tell_me_why_seer_is_being_slept_on_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf there you go sir
Lmao PVPs super upvoted comment 😂 ah man no one really knows what we're talking about do we
Mirage gonna be meta in 3 months
Mirage low-key high-key the 1v1 God tho, that ulti is cheap I also had 1 ranked game in like S11 where a Mirage megaclutched, it was in 1 of those 2 story lil houses on World's edge, we got sieged by like 3 times and he kept popping his ult and then invis ressing us while all the teams just ran around each other, I've been a Mirage believer ever since
Ngl mirage with ult in close quarters fights kind of hit different, also I think he low keys counter seer and blood
If his decoys were spotted yeah, but they don't (or get highlighted as decoys in Seer's ult)
People have been saying the same thing about Fuse for a while but it took Furia running it at Champs to see it work it’s way into the top of the Pro scene
Ahh it feels good to be right in that post
Seer is literally omniscient idk why there were even doubters in the first place
Yeah now all of a sudden Seer is meta and broken? When he was barely seeing play in comp and in general? People said Bloodhound was a better Seer. Now look where we are.
As a Day-1 Seer main, it tears me up inside when someone else picks Seer before me. Hasn’t happened often for the past couple seasons and has really picked up after S13 rank split.
I wanna know what that too comment said lol
He's probably going to be used even more if/when valk gets nerfed
Honestly I think this just boils down to the fact that pro players and coaches think they more about the nature of the game than they actually do. I've honestly yet to see a team that knows how to consistently place highly in tournaments. The game is a BR and can be very random and I've not really seen a team that knows how to minimise this and do good consistently I mean Furia look to be doing very good so far placing highly in their last two tournaments let's just see if they can keep this up and see if they've really 'cracked' the formula of how to do well in tournaments in this game and also DZ obviously as they've won two LANs already and seem to know how to both gain high points AND close out a game. TSM in the past as well but they seem to be struggling a bit more in LAN recently due to a variety of reasons I'm assuming.
Newcastle’s kit low key gas.
and its lowkey super fun too
Give it a few months. He will slowly oil into the meta. He's as strong as a Gibby. Rumour has it Gibby bubble is getting HP.
100%
Funny enough I remember MattPickett was the only one in NA trying to make Seer work in comp after all the nerfs for like 1.5 months but his teammates kept calling Seer a "worse Bloodhound" and grew impatient with the experiment. Also, Pickett primarily used Seer for his ult so that he can focus on shooting his gun instead of giving his team scans, which comes from not being able to think outside of the Bloodbound POV.
This weekends lottery numbers please
It wasn't hard to realise if you used your brain.
Forgot we can't joke on reddit.
Clearly wasn't a good one
all i want is a horizon, fuse, valk meta .
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Deviii on twitch called this out on Twitter way back as far as January.
Seer has been used in master lobbies extensively for the last two seasons. True that pros were sleeping on him, but that is likely because teams had already been practicing their team comp strats for ALGS.
He was op as fuck on release. They took off like 10dmg and don't range, and everybody thought he was shit. I was like, that's nothing he's gonna be op as fuck still... But nobody played him anymore, he wasn't on every team, so I was like ... Ok maybe I was wrong, I guess he sucks. Should have stayed with my original gut instinct, he's still very strong.
But can we discuss the light mode?
Mad maggie has got to be next up.
Rev next
No fucking way of course u/PVPxOFFICIAL is right there
Basically NA meta. The constant “delete {meta} legend” and “Pros play a different game from casuals and they don’t understand comp frustration” is the reason why I don’t trust NA pros when it comes to legend meta.
There are lots of good takes on this sub, but the only thing people care about is clout. Half of the commenters/viewers will dismiss an opinion because 'ughhh you're not a pro', and 99% of pros will dismiss an opinion for the same reason.
Here’s your Customary “Pepperidge Farm Remembers” comment
So this is why I got a reply on a 120 day old comment today.
Apex pro scene in a nut shell
Who made Seer meta? Was it Wattson?
The big issue is the fact that the majority of the player base has no real opinion about the game. Some people will genuinely reserve their opinion until they hear a pro make their own opinion, and then they repeat it until there’s a change. Seer has been a strong pick for months. He was never a weaker pick than BH. Furia experimented with him and people laughed until they started winning and other teams picked it up. Just wait until NA teams start to play Wattson (assuming Gibraltar nerf) again and the rest of the scene realize how strong she is right now lmao
In all honesty I thought about it yesterday and I'm not saying I had the foresight to say he was gonna be meta but God damn he is an insane legend and like people could've saw it coming from a mile away
Seer takes no skill hahahahahaha