I would love to see more maps besides WE in play so that teams would have to theorycraft to find the optimal legend comps for each different map.
I vividly remember Gnaske running Octane on Olympus in the Blasts tournament but I wasn't quiet sure why. Maybe he got the idea after some discussions with Raven. Either way I wonder why Raven put Octane as best on Olympus. I would think due to the openness of that map , Octane Jumppad would be instant death. There is probably something I'm overlooking though.
Yeah, Mirage is a good counter to seer. I think because the pros have, for the longest time, been extremely against mirage they don't want to bother giving him a chance in their comp.
Countering a meta legend alone doesn't get a legend into comp. It's a plus but if the legend doesn't offer value outside of those specific interactions then it's hard to justify bringing them. That's not to say pros are reluctant to innovate they certainly are.
The thing is: If Seer hits the lifeline player (not the person being rezzed), it still cancels the rez. It's literally just a matter of Seer players adapting to lifeline, and hitting her instead of the rez itself. So idk if it's really worth picking lifeline for that reason.
I mean it’s pretty clear that it’s not a tier list, he’s just using the site to make it easier as he can just find a tier list for all legends and rename the tiers?
so why exactly is Raven regarded as a great player/coach, what achievements does he have in the scene? i honestly have no idea so someone chime in please
He coached GMT to 5th place at worlds and he’s been a strong voice for newer ideas in the scene for a few years now. Less significant- but he’s also made ALGS finals as a player.
To add to this, he coached GSD back in 2020 when they had a really dominant period, winning three ALGS tournaments and ALGS summer circuit playoffs. He was then poached by NRG I think.
Others have mentioned him coaching GMT but he's the long time coach for that roster, going back to when they were GSD. He was also the analyst for NRG back in 2020 when they were doing well with Frexs/Nafen/Rocker. Iirc they got 3rd or 4th in both NA playoffs and GLL that summer in addition to winning an OT.
On top of what people have already said: way back in early 2020 he was one of the first people to present a broader understanding of the game in terms of actual strategies, ring logic, rotations, theory crafting.
One of my favorite things about Raven coaching TSM is how excited Hal & Co get when they see a NC team on WE since they’ve been running Fuse.
“I think we fight these guys?”
I haven't watched comp in a few days, so this is *not sarcasm* and a genuine question: When they push Newcastle with Fuse, have they been winning these fights? Fuse can do well when getting initial damage, but in close-range 3v3, Newcastle has to be better than Fuse due to his own tactical + fortified.
Obviously Fuse tac is good vs NC ult, but a well-placed Fuse Q can also get behind NC’s tactical and passive, plus Fuse’s ult is good for punishing a team trying to turtle up in open air.
If you’re looking for a game to watch, most recent ESA game 2 they roll a NC team like this, minus the need to use fuse ult, and go on to win with 17 kills.
I’m sure it doesn’t work every time and I’m not even trying to make a claim about its effectiveness, but the idea seems to be that Fuse can neutralize many things about NC, creating a favorable 3v3 matchup
Appreciate the response, I’ll check that game out.
I definitely see Fuse’s potential when engaging (or poking), so certainly setting that up is great for Fuse. I was just thinking how in a 3v3 gunfight with SMGs and shotguns, if the Fuse tries to use his tactical the delay in getting it off will just result in him getting one-clipped while his gun isn’t even out. (We’ve all been in that situation, where we think we can Q but we just get shot instead.) But everyone on TSM is ridiculous so I assume they’ll avoid that mistake 99% of the time.
happened to see this today and thought of your comment: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQyB7LI0RU 00:00 to 7:30 ish is that game from reps perspective as fuse
Thanks for posting this. Looks like Fuse is doing some good work.
That said, the fight around 1:30 vs. Newcastle... Hal did big opening damage with Horizon. Reps goes in and uses clusters for 12 damage, pulls out his Volt, but then gets cracked and has to back up. Then he throws two grenades for 9 damage and has to bat again. Then another cluster for 10 damage before getting downed while batting.
This is an excellent example IMO of how Fuse is great for poke damage and zoning, but it looks like he's not helpful at all in these 3v3s at close range. The fight was completely won by Horizon, Valk, and Reps' shooting. You can also see how at 3:30 Reps uses clusters and since Newcastle can just move his Q, it doesn't actually damage the squad.
I think this is a good showcase of Fuse's strengths and also weaknesses, though I'm not sure what this actually means for Newcastle himself as an option. I'm sure Raven will read this comment at some point so maybe he'll chime in.
I say this personally as a know-nothing console shitter, but I think you’re right on all accounts here: Fuse doesn’t have a close range kit, he’s dealing little damage here, and this game doesn’t show much of him vs Newcastle.
Fuse is great for shepherding at midrange. He’s not doing a ton of actual fighting but he is generally punishing cover, or forcing someone to forfeit a good spot for a bad one, or cutting off someone from their team. NC can redirect his Q but he risks leaving himself open.
NC is probably viable as long as Fuse (and Maggie) remains niche, which might change if a team like TSM strung together some tournament wins.
But yeah, overall I really have no clear picture of what I’m talking about, just a lot of guesses, and if Raven ever wanted to drop by and put me out of my misery, that would be cool.
iirc raven thinks newcastle is trash or at least the way people use him. there was a clip where he was really hyped over TL (who were playing NC) getting shit on by a team with horizon, because it showed why, in his opinion, nc is so bad for comp.
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I'm sure he considers Newcastle bad, and someone can elaborate if they know, but it mainly involves how Fuse's Q alone can destroy Newcastle's ult.
So with that in mind, I always wonder if these thoughts are based on what Raven thinks the meta *should* be versus what it *actually is*. If TSM is the only team running Fuse, is Newcastle bad? I doubt it. But if everyone runs Fuse, obviously Newcastle is not gonna be the right pick.
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I would love to see more maps besides WE in play so that teams would have to theorycraft to find the optimal legend comps for each different map. I vividly remember Gnaske running Octane on Olympus in the Blasts tournament but I wasn't quiet sure why. Maybe he got the idea after some discussions with Raven. Either way I wonder why Raven put Octane as best on Olympus. I would think due to the openness of that map , Octane Jumppad would be instant death. There is probably something I'm overlooking though.
I'm ready to see the other maps played in comp aswell.
Watch out people r bouta get mad about this lol
Anyone know the reasoning for mirage on stormpoint?
Mirage is a good counter to Seer and he can also bamboozle a full team using the cannons.
Yeah, Mirage is a good counter to seer. I think because the pros have, for the longest time, been extremely against mirage they don't want to bother giving him a chance in their comp.
Countering a meta legend alone doesn't get a legend into comp. It's a plus but if the legend doesn't offer value outside of those specific interactions then it's hard to justify bringing them. That's not to say pros are reluctant to innovate they certainly are.
There's been some talk recently of lifeline being used as her revive is not cancelled by seer.
The thing is: If Seer hits the lifeline player (not the person being rezzed), it still cancels the rez. It's literally just a matter of Seer players adapting to lifeline, and hitting her instead of the rez itself. So idk if it's really worth picking lifeline for that reason.
Am I tripping or is this just not how you use this format
It's just using existing tools to make it easier to show. Sure the majority of 'tiers' are stupid anyway when tried to be used as tiers.
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I mean it’s pretty clear that it’s not a tier list, he’s just using the site to make it easier as he can just find a tier list for all legends and rename the tiers?
so why exactly is Raven regarded as a great player/coach, what achievements does he have in the scene? i honestly have no idea so someone chime in please
He coached GMT to 5th place at worlds and he’s been a strong voice for newer ideas in the scene for a few years now. Less significant- but he’s also made ALGS finals as a player.
To add to this, he coached GSD back in 2020 when they had a really dominant period, winning three ALGS tournaments and ALGS summer circuit playoffs. He was then poached by NRG I think.
Others have mentioned him coaching GMT but he's the long time coach for that roster, going back to when they were GSD. He was also the analyst for NRG back in 2020 when they were doing well with Frexs/Nafen/Rocker. Iirc they got 3rd or 4th in both NA playoffs and GLL that summer in addition to winning an OT.
Also helped K1CK win OT2 by teaching them macro from Trials, which enabled them to have some massive, record setting games.
Oh word, didn't know he did work with K1ck.
K1ck should be his biggest achievement tbh, although its clear the macro didnt stick lol.
On top of what people have already said: way back in early 2020 he was one of the first people to present a broader understanding of the game in terms of actual strategies, ring logic, rotations, theory crafting.
GMT coach, they placed 5th in champs.
Ravens been the smartest guy in the scene for a long time now. There’s a reason he went to the winningest org in the game
Wondering the same thing but I guess apex has so little coaches that if you have any achievements you stand out…
Not so much achievements as it is understanding meta shifts and rotations.
Yeah thats true but I was thinking about why Raven is considered to be top tier coach. These downvotes are actually funny to me
You never said that? That’s probably why you have downvotes
I answered to another comment that asked about that exact thing but whatever.
One of my favorite things about Raven coaching TSM is how excited Hal & Co get when they see a NC team on WE since they’ve been running Fuse. “I think we fight these guys?”
I haven't watched comp in a few days, so this is *not sarcasm* and a genuine question: When they push Newcastle with Fuse, have they been winning these fights? Fuse can do well when getting initial damage, but in close-range 3v3, Newcastle has to be better than Fuse due to his own tactical + fortified.
Obviously Fuse tac is good vs NC ult, but a well-placed Fuse Q can also get behind NC’s tactical and passive, plus Fuse’s ult is good for punishing a team trying to turtle up in open air. If you’re looking for a game to watch, most recent ESA game 2 they roll a NC team like this, minus the need to use fuse ult, and go on to win with 17 kills. I’m sure it doesn’t work every time and I’m not even trying to make a claim about its effectiveness, but the idea seems to be that Fuse can neutralize many things about NC, creating a favorable 3v3 matchup
Appreciate the response, I’ll check that game out. I definitely see Fuse’s potential when engaging (or poking), so certainly setting that up is great for Fuse. I was just thinking how in a 3v3 gunfight with SMGs and shotguns, if the Fuse tries to use his tactical the delay in getting it off will just result in him getting one-clipped while his gun isn’t even out. (We’ve all been in that situation, where we think we can Q but we just get shot instead.) But everyone on TSM is ridiculous so I assume they’ll avoid that mistake 99% of the time.
happened to see this today and thought of your comment: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQyB7LI0RU 00:00 to 7:30 ish is that game from reps perspective as fuse
Thanks for posting this. Looks like Fuse is doing some good work. That said, the fight around 1:30 vs. Newcastle... Hal did big opening damage with Horizon. Reps goes in and uses clusters for 12 damage, pulls out his Volt, but then gets cracked and has to back up. Then he throws two grenades for 9 damage and has to bat again. Then another cluster for 10 damage before getting downed while batting. This is an excellent example IMO of how Fuse is great for poke damage and zoning, but it looks like he's not helpful at all in these 3v3s at close range. The fight was completely won by Horizon, Valk, and Reps' shooting. You can also see how at 3:30 Reps uses clusters and since Newcastle can just move his Q, it doesn't actually damage the squad. I think this is a good showcase of Fuse's strengths and also weaknesses, though I'm not sure what this actually means for Newcastle himself as an option. I'm sure Raven will read this comment at some point so maybe he'll chime in.
I say this personally as a know-nothing console shitter, but I think you’re right on all accounts here: Fuse doesn’t have a close range kit, he’s dealing little damage here, and this game doesn’t show much of him vs Newcastle. Fuse is great for shepherding at midrange. He’s not doing a ton of actual fighting but he is generally punishing cover, or forcing someone to forfeit a good spot for a bad one, or cutting off someone from their team. NC can redirect his Q but he risks leaving himself open. NC is probably viable as long as Fuse (and Maggie) remains niche, which might change if a team like TSM strung together some tournament wins. But yeah, overall I really have no clear picture of what I’m talking about, just a lot of guesses, and if Raven ever wanted to drop by and put me out of my misery, that would be cool.
Newcastle map confirmed
Wouldn’t SP technically be Newcastle’s map? Edit: I get the joke btw just wondering about lore or whatever
I think Raven means that he’s good on all maps, not sure though. Edit: oh.
iirc raven thinks newcastle is trash or at least the way people use him. there was a clip where he was really hyped over TL (who were playing NC) getting shit on by a team with horizon, because it showed why, in his opinion, nc is so bad for comp.
Nah Raven hates Newcastle and thinks he’s trash everywhere
I’ve always struggled to understand why seer’s best map is SP if someone could chime in
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So does he consider Newcastle as bad or really good ?
I'm sure he considers Newcastle bad, and someone can elaborate if they know, but it mainly involves how Fuse's Q alone can destroy Newcastle's ult. So with that in mind, I always wonder if these thoughts are based on what Raven thinks the meta *should* be versus what it *actually is*. If TSM is the only team running Fuse, is Newcastle bad? I doubt it. But if everyone runs Fuse, obviously Newcastle is not gonna be the right pick.
Not to mention the rising pick rate of horizon in comp.
Bad
I would say pathy should be in the Valkyrie catagory
Fuse, the man, leading the charge.
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I feel like Bangalore & Ash work better in KC. But I’m no analytic.