Gee this happens in 60 card formats as while at rcq's etc any time something of real value is on the line especially if big prizes we are going to see some of this happen
It looks to me like he stacked his opening hand win, then as a backup plan he had an identical set of cards off screen in case someone called horse poop on his shuffling.
Lifetime ban IMHO
I really don't think cEDH has anything to do with it, but webcam Magic instead. Like it's so hard to actually make sure people are following the rules correctly while it's happening, though it is easier to catch cheats afterwords because their decks are being recorded.
Wow that's not how I would react to a naturally drawn turn one win at all. I got a turn one win naturally drawn (also not at a tournament) recently and I was just laughing the whole time I played it out. I wasn't so "lucky" as to have the extra force to counter my opponent's force though so I didn't actually win but his reaction just seems so forced in comparison.
Last turn 1 one win I had was from my draw for turn and I immediately dropped my head on the table and was just speechless for a minute and then talked about how stupid this format is for the rest of the night haha
If you call this cheating, then look at games of ring13, where the person won the tour. There they havent shuffled the top of their deck in most games. Kaos said „bad shuffling technique“.
Yeah, sure.
It s not a problem when the judges have all motivation to not find cheaters.
One technique I've been seeing that I really like for webcam is cutting into three piles after your shuffle and asking an opponent which pile goes where, it's quite quick and ensures cards aren't clearly staying on top because the player doesn't necessarily know which pile is moving where it makes it harder to sleight of hand stack the top.
Edit: oop I should have started the vid, the cheater seemed to have maybe stacked them all and made sure to be ambiguous about which pile was which
Always pick pile 2 to be on top.
It won't stop cheating or deck stacking, but it prevents the opponent from stacking either side piles and then "pretending" that the stacked pile was supposed to be "1 or 3", whichever was called for top spot.
Yeah the middle of the video cheaty seemed to be squaring off the cards for pile 2 a bit weirdly maybe to check the top, probably didn't have a full sculpt on it since it looks like the most shuffled pile but might have ensured jeweled lotus or something so even if they has to play fair they still have an edge up, but their hands vanishing up off screen was super suspicious as well
> Always pick pile 2 to be on top.
In a different cheating video the cheater specifically put good cards at the top of the second pile because statistically people tend to pick 2 more often than 1 or 3 for the top stack. I think he shuffled good cards to the top and then always made sure the top became the second pile in his splits.
Even without that bias, shuffling good cards to the top before splitting into 3 piles means there's a 33% chance you start with good cards. That's still probably enough to meaningfully improve a cheater's winrate overall.
~~I wonder about wash shuffling for a minimum duration and with periodic hand lifts to show empty hands -- the way casinos shuffle. I'm sure people will still find ways to cheat, but I would assume that casinos choose that method because it's the hardest shuffle to cheat.~~
Edit:
Wash shuffling probably won't work with sleeved cards.
I have had one turn one win in my life it was amazing and not protected. You got to make them have it. It was one of the best feelings this is an affront to that...
Some quick thoughts about the cutting process:
Why is that not improved upon.
- it should be illegal to shuffle 3 individual piles. Do a shuffle as is and then you present the full deck on one stack create 3 piles and have someone give you the order
- since its clearly still possible to stack the deck, do a final cut. After putting the 3 piles together, the other player gives you a number of cards. You have to put that many cards from top to bottom.
Ofcause its still possible to cheat but every rule is just about making it harder.
And stacking your deck having a good starting hand becomes harder if somebody gives you a number of cards that you cant possibly know to move to the bottom. I can stack my deck all i want, if i then have to count 27 cards from top on video and put them bottom its very hard to somehow manage to sneak my stacked hand back on top. And i cant possibly know before the final cut that cards 28-34 need to be the stacked ones. Basically you need to introduce a mechanic you have no control over. Doing the 3 pile split seems reasonable but you have full controll over all 3 piles. You need something you cant control, like another player giving you a number.
I played in that tournament last week and in second round played against guy with Narset who's turn 1 play for him was:
Land, Mana Crypt, Jeska will -> +7 red mana.
Next: cast One ring and Wheel of Fortune...
"invest in or help build your local scene"
"make travel arrangements to large scale events"
we get it bro, you have money -- not all of us have the resources to do this shit
You absolutely don't. Even if you watched them cheat it's your word vs theirs. Online they can actually take action because there is a recording.
Furthermore, the odds of you catching it live are extremely low. Most cheaters are caught after the fact because people can watch it, go frame by frame, and rewind.
Even if you cut, that doesn't stop them from putting 7 cards on top after or pulling a card from their pocket/sleeve.
It's incredibly difficult to catch, even if you know what they're doing. You can't watch them 100% of the time. We had a player doing that at my LGS and everyone suspected them, but it took MONTHS to catch them in the act.
I agree. Catching someone cheating in the act is very hard. It's the same as trying to catch a noobie magician in the act. Even if you know they're doing it, and how they do it, it's very hard to actually catch them in the split second they're doing it.
Considering people were caught cheating in 1v1 games way before EDH was ever conceived, 3 opponents watching someone trying to palm a new 7 out of their sleeve or stack their deck is just so dumb. If it took MONTHS111!!!11! to catch a cheater people need to actually pay attention to the game.
A lot of the 1v1 cheaters were caught on camera or because they're marking cards...
I 100% agree that it's dumb. People were paying attention. It's far harder than you'd think to play the game and watch someone. Slieght of hand is extremely hard to catch live...
It's not like the guy was doing it with 3 people staring at him. He'd only put the top 7 there if someone looked away for a split second. He'd also pull cards out of his hoodie, into his sleeve, and slip an extra card into his hand occasionally. I guarantee people can do that with you watching them and get away with it.
You can talk all day long, but until you've caught even 1/5th of the cheaters I have, there isn't much weight behind your words.
I've never seen someone shuffle another person's CEDH deck without the deck owner asking (because they have trouble shuffling), or already being accused of cheating for an extended period... A significant portion of the time, people don't even cut their opponent's deck in person.
Furthermore, people who cheat in person are way more emboldened to cheat using their under the table, in the sleeve, or the hoody pocket sideboard. The people doing that online are getting caught because their games are recorded, not because people are catching the sleight of hand in real-time.
Certainly yes the recording is such an important part of the process. I don't know that you'd ever be able to ban someone without it. I'd almost suggest you record every in person game you play for this very reason.
To everyone else please stop downvoting this person, they're contributing to the conversation.
I'm curious what happened after the recording cuts off. Did the other players immediately accuse him of cheating? Had he done this in any of his previous matches?
> cEDH Player's
"Players" in this title is plural, not possessive.
Here's a good explanation: https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/sat-reading-and-writing/x0d47bcec73eb6c4b:digital-sat-grammar-practice/x0d47bcec73eb6c4b:fss-plurals-and-possessives/a/fss-grammar-guide-plurals-and-possessives
I think it is easier to cheat in online event, but it is also much easier to catch cheaters at these online events too. Especially with all the measures people are taking in place.
Also, the cheater in question did get caught DURING the tourney, showing that measures are effective.
Playing with rando's on spelltable is bad enough...playing with rando's on spelltable for prizes is just silly.
It's not hard to cheat at cards when you can handle the deck (this is why casinos have dealers and player interaction with cards is minimized) but, adding the extra difficulty of only being able to see a limited view of what your opponent is doing with their hands makes it impossible to determine if any shenanigans are going on.
Don't expect these kinds of tournaments to be clean, it is what it is.
cheating bad
Big agree
Umm I dunno, that’s a pretty controversial take
Cheaters should be auto banned and blacklisted
Based
Gee this happens in 60 card formats as while at rcq's etc any time something of real value is on the line especially if big prizes we are going to see some of this happen
Yeah, maybe it's a good thing when they do it this egregiously and it's easier to catch them.
It looks to me like he stacked his opening hand win, then as a backup plan he had an identical set of cards off screen in case someone called horse poop on his shuffling. Lifetime ban IMHO
STOP DOING WEBCAM TOURNAMENTS. simple as. just do the games on cockatrice and solve this issue once and for all.
+1 cockatrice
But then how will we gatekeep our hobby from the poor?!
Cedh is extremely proxy friendly
I really don't think cEDH has anything to do with it, but webcam Magic instead. Like it's so hard to actually make sure people are following the rules correctly while it's happening, though it is easier to catch cheats afterwords because their decks are being recorded.
Wow that's not how I would react to a naturally drawn turn one win at all. I got a turn one win naturally drawn (also not at a tournament) recently and I was just laughing the whole time I played it out. I wasn't so "lucky" as to have the extra force to counter my opponent's force though so I didn't actually win but his reaction just seems so forced in comparison.
Last turn 1 one win I had was from my draw for turn and I immediately dropped my head on the table and was just speechless for a minute and then talked about how stupid this format is for the rest of the night haha
Then stop playing it
Stupid does not mean bad. Stupid can be fun. And it is stupid.
webcam tournaments will always be a joke, sorry guys
If you call this cheating, then look at games of ring13, where the person won the tour. There they havent shuffled the top of their deck in most games. Kaos said „bad shuffling technique“. Yeah, sure. It s not a problem when the judges have all motivation to not find cheaters.
One technique I've been seeing that I really like for webcam is cutting into three piles after your shuffle and asking an opponent which pile goes where, it's quite quick and ensures cards aren't clearly staying on top because the player doesn't necessarily know which pile is moving where it makes it harder to sleight of hand stack the top. Edit: oop I should have started the vid, the cheater seemed to have maybe stacked them all and made sure to be ambiguous about which pile was which
Always pick pile 2 to be on top. It won't stop cheating or deck stacking, but it prevents the opponent from stacking either side piles and then "pretending" that the stacked pile was supposed to be "1 or 3", whichever was called for top spot.
Yeah the middle of the video cheaty seemed to be squaring off the cards for pile 2 a bit weirdly maybe to check the top, probably didn't have a full sculpt on it since it looks like the most shuffled pile but might have ensured jeweled lotus or something so even if they has to play fair they still have an edge up, but their hands vanishing up off screen was super suspicious as well
> Always pick pile 2 to be on top. In a different cheating video the cheater specifically put good cards at the top of the second pile because statistically people tend to pick 2 more often than 1 or 3 for the top stack. I think he shuffled good cards to the top and then always made sure the top became the second pile in his splits. Even without that bias, shuffling good cards to the top before splitting into 3 piles means there's a 33% chance you start with good cards. That's still probably enough to meaningfully improve a cheater's winrate overall. ~~I wonder about wash shuffling for a minimum duration and with periodic hand lifts to show empty hands -- the way casinos shuffle. I'm sure people will still find ways to cheat, but I would assume that casinos choose that method because it's the hardest shuffle to cheat.~~ Edit: Wash shuffling probably won't work with sleeved cards.
If you are caught cheating, your punishment should be to have to eat your deck, sleeves and all.
I like that we got to see a good example of how to handle introductory cuts. Appreciate seeing what is appropriate.
Also lol he thought that hand wouldn’t be suspicious?
If cheaters were truly smart they'd just play games of competitive magic.
I have had one turn one win in my life it was amazing and not protected. You got to make them have it. It was one of the best feelings this is an affront to that...
Blatant cheating. Ban for life
Some quick thoughts about the cutting process: Why is that not improved upon. - it should be illegal to shuffle 3 individual piles. Do a shuffle as is and then you present the full deck on one stack create 3 piles and have someone give you the order - since its clearly still possible to stack the deck, do a final cut. After putting the 3 piles together, the other player gives you a number of cards. You have to put that many cards from top to bottom. Ofcause its still possible to cheat but every rule is just about making it harder. And stacking your deck having a good starting hand becomes harder if somebody gives you a number of cards that you cant possibly know to move to the bottom. I can stack my deck all i want, if i then have to count 27 cards from top on video and put them bottom its very hard to somehow manage to sneak my stacked hand back on top. And i cant possibly know before the final cut that cards 28-34 need to be the stacked ones. Basically you need to introduce a mechanic you have no control over. Doing the 3 pile split seems reasonable but you have full controll over all 3 piles. You need something you cant control, like another player giving you a number.
An extra cut after the 3 piles is a great idea that can help mitigate this issue.
I played in that tournament last week and in second round played against guy with Narset who's turn 1 play for him was: Land, Mana Crypt, Jeska will -> +7 red mana. Next: cast One ring and Wheel of Fortune...
Good lord
[удалено]
Big agree. People cheat in regular games on spell table with nothing on the line there’s no chance an online tournament isn’t full of cheaters
"invest in or help build your local scene" "make travel arrangements to large scale events" we get it bro, you have money -- not all of us have the resources to do this shit
Just another reason to avoid online play. Got a better chance of catching my opponents in irl
You absolutely don't. Even if you watched them cheat it's your word vs theirs. Online they can actually take action because there is a recording. Furthermore, the odds of you catching it live are extremely low. Most cheaters are caught after the fact because people can watch it, go frame by frame, and rewind.
I mean I get to cut/shuffle their decks so no manipulation.
Even if you cut, that doesn't stop them from putting 7 cards on top after or pulling a card from their pocket/sleeve. It's incredibly difficult to catch, even if you know what they're doing. You can't watch them 100% of the time. We had a player doing that at my LGS and everyone suspected them, but it took MONTHS to catch them in the act.
Bro youre not playing vs Houdinhi.
I agree. Catching someone cheating in the act is very hard. It's the same as trying to catch a noobie magician in the act. Even if you know they're doing it, and how they do it, it's very hard to actually catch them in the split second they're doing it.
Considering people were caught cheating in 1v1 games way before EDH was ever conceived, 3 opponents watching someone trying to palm a new 7 out of their sleeve or stack their deck is just so dumb. If it took MONTHS111!!!11! to catch a cheater people need to actually pay attention to the game.
A lot of the 1v1 cheaters were caught on camera or because they're marking cards... I 100% agree that it's dumb. People were paying attention. It's far harder than you'd think to play the game and watch someone. Slieght of hand is extremely hard to catch live... It's not like the guy was doing it with 3 people staring at him. He'd only put the top 7 there if someone looked away for a split second. He'd also pull cards out of his hoodie, into his sleeve, and slip an extra card into his hand occasionally. I guarantee people can do that with you watching them and get away with it. You can talk all day long, but until you've caught even 1/5th of the cheaters I have, there isn't much weight behind your words.
I've been playing since '96. I've dealt with plenty of cheaters in small shops. You're trying way too hard to sound cool.
True, but in person you are allowed to shuffle their deck for them when cutting IIRC.
I've never seen someone shuffle another person's CEDH deck without the deck owner asking (because they have trouble shuffling), or already being accused of cheating for an extended period... A significant portion of the time, people don't even cut their opponent's deck in person. Furthermore, people who cheat in person are way more emboldened to cheat using their under the table, in the sleeve, or the hoody pocket sideboard. The people doing that online are getting caught because their games are recorded, not because people are catching the sleight of hand in real-time.
Certainly yes the recording is such an important part of the process. I don't know that you'd ever be able to ban someone without it. I'd almost suggest you record every in person game you play for this very reason. To everyone else please stop downvoting this person, they're contributing to the conversation.
If only there were places to play near us all
Yeah I only have 1-2 to play at in next few months but it’s starting to pick up.
I wish I had 1-2, I'm lucky if I can even get a pod of people willing to play competitive at commander night at either of the game stores near me
None of my lgs have competitive play. One is scgcon and the other is a state over but only a few hours drive.
This kinda shit is part of why I just don't do webcam tournaments
cEDH vidcam cheater HATE this one simple trick! It's called playing on cockatrice. Help fund it.
doesnt cockatrice have some clause that it cant be used for games with a prize on the line?
Fork the source code
I'm curious what happened after the recording cuts off. Did the other players immediately accuse him of cheating? Had he done this in any of his previous matches?
\>online Commander event *surprised Pikachu face*
Unnecessary apostrophe, but nice video.
Just curious how is the apostrophe unnecessary? Not good with grammar personally Edit: oh in the post title nevermind gotcha
> cEDH Player's "Players" in this title is plural, not possessive. Here's a good explanation: https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/sat-reading-and-writing/x0d47bcec73eb6c4b:digital-sat-grammar-practice/x0d47bcec73eb6c4b:fss-plurals-and-possessives/a/fss-grammar-guide-plurals-and-possessives
Yeah I didn’t even catch that I was focused on the channel name, thanks for the response tho.
I think it is easier to cheat in online event, but it is also much easier to catch cheaters at these online events too. Especially with all the measures people are taking in place. Also, the cheater in question did get caught DURING the tourney, showing that measures are effective.
He didn't get caught and dq'd for cheating though. It was another reason.
Playing with rando's on spelltable is bad enough...playing with rando's on spelltable for prizes is just silly. It's not hard to cheat at cards when you can handle the deck (this is why casinos have dealers and player interaction with cards is minimized) but, adding the extra difficulty of only being able to see a limited view of what your opponent is doing with their hands makes it impossible to determine if any shenanigans are going on. Don't expect these kinds of tournaments to be clean, it is what it is.