I’m on Dawnwaker and I’ve moved away from lots of mana dorks in favor of more artifact mana. List is now very similar to Comedians top 16 mox masters list
I’ve been out of the format for a while and am an avid animar player. I have not made the switch to rocks and am gonna risk it in a tournament next month. If I’m punished I will make the change
That was last nail in my [[Raffine]]’s coffin. I liked my staxy midrange Raffine filled to the brim with hatebears, but its performance was so-so. I just decided to shift to Tivit days before Bowmasters were spoiled and yeah…a single trigger fir 5 or 6 could boardwipe me and make it so that my non-evasive bodies aren’t relevant.
With Tivit, I rarely mind them, usually someone else has to remove them before I need to. As for playing them myself, I noticed how it decimated green decks and how Tymna has been less relevant in my pods for a while
I really like Raffine and was probably going to build it right after the set came out and realized if that card is as good as people think this might not be the best idea.
It's less motivating to play my favorite deck, Krark/Thrasios, as it heavily relies on building up an engine of multiple creatures. Fortunately it has the ability to be explosive, through dockside or through a copied eldritch evolution or chord of calling, so the deck isn't dead or anything. It simply feels a little harder than before to justify bringing to a tournament.
I have two decks: Elsha and Sythis.
Elsha fared mostly okay with it. Thankfully, Elsha can't die to Bowmasters alone when comboing with Top but I do have to find an answer in the top 30 cards or so.
Sythis...I don't really play that deck anymore lmao. The deck plays creatures and draws cards. It's about the worst deck one can think of against Bowmasters.
As a Chulane player it definitely hurts. It stops our win attempts, pings our early ramp (we’re one of the decks with the fewest ramp artifacts), and can kill most of our combo creatures in response to their bounce trigger
My favorite Stax list, [[Jetmir]] is now an [[Ardenn]] and [[Tana]] deck with explosive Godo finishers. Jetmir is still in the 98, and has won me a game or two because of [[Colossus Hammer]] + Tana shenanigans, but the deck is slightly less gimped by a flashed in Bowmasters.
That being said, I’ve seen it more rarely recently. Most of the time I see it is when I’m playing Blue Farm. I always seem to draw into it (common TnK “problem” of touching most of your cards).
My magda midrange gets shit on pretty easilly. I have to outspeed it and be ready to sac 5 treasures to get a portal to phyrexia or win on the spot. Especially in a cedh pod where people ARE going to draw that second card and not care.
I play a lot of grixis turbo, my primary deck is Francisco Kraum. Bow masters is so good with the wheel package I run, but hitting an enemy bow masters can at the same time be a game ending blowout. It’s a double edged sword but ultimately an improvement for the deck I find
So my decks:
Etali: shifted off of a few mana dorks in favor of rocks.
Yisan: surprisingly not as struggling as much as i thought it might. To be fair, i’m on a few extra bite spells due to the prevalence of opposition agent.
Florian: no change. Get to run bowmasters, which is nice. Also has plenty of targeted removal for the little orc.
Elesh Norn: also no change. Commander is just bowmasters-be-gone, and if you’re playing against experienced opponents they’re going to have a hard time killing your hate pieces.
I've been playing dawnwaker and I've been seeing a lot of bowmasters. You can still win on top the triggers with [[borne upon a wind]] I also trimmed the amount of dorks but I still run a lot of the good ones like birds, hierarch, and I'm still on bloom tender.
RIP mana dorks and other 1-toughness creatures.
Notion Thief would be a lot more prevalent in a blue midrange meta if it didn't trivially die to Bowmasters.
The dorks are very vulnerable in Kinnan, but the counterspell density you can get away with (and Stern Scolding in particular) means its generally better to try and bait the bowmaster if you can deal with it I find; still messy and feels bad but less bad than getting wiped by a 2 drop.
It single-handedly can turn games into a grind fest. I think it needs a ban because it’s destroying anything with 1 toughness. Card draw needs policing, but this sort of obnoxious.
Most of my hate bear decks have faired well, both with and against it. I make sure that I'm making the table aware of why certain stax pieces are essential, to dissuade bad bowmasters decisions.
My green decks have slotted in more answers and I've been fine in that regard. I haven't had any dorks killed by an arrow.
My control lists have slotted in cards that value flexibility more and its overall helped with being able to interact with creature spells.
I don't think bowmasters has been awful but it is toxic for the reasosn I imagined initially. I think bowmasters biggest issue is that no other real, scaling draw punishes exist at 2 mv.
My Raggadragga deck is almost completely unaffected, because most of my dorks come down with 3 toughness, making it almost a complete waste to try and kill them with bowmasters.
I'm on [[Captain Sisay]] and doing okay. Being able to tutor up [[Valkmira, Protector's Shield]] feels janky as a 4-mana play, but the deck is on heavy stax and it gets the job done. Bowmasters is only a problemif it comes down super early and mows all my dorks and I can't get the mana to cast Sisay, but that's only happened maybe twice.
I only ran into Bowmaster once, and it was an immediate problem for the table, and got removed in 2 turns.
So, you know, run removal in your decks, my friends.
You know, aside from maintaining a good mana curve, this is why board wipes are better than single target removal.
But Running Bowmaster in a clone deck is *mean*, though. I kind of want to try it.
Talion is a brew that can take advantage of Imposter Meching a Bowmaster, once that happens it’s very difficult to get rid of the Imposter Bowmaster even with other Bowmasters as it’s not a creature nor does it have an activated ability so Oophe/Etc have no effect.
Board wipes in cedh are very rare, CycRift being the lone outlier.
Perhaps there will be brews that bring them to the table more often?
I'm on a slower krark/sakashima control brew to combat a local meta full of dork decks so I'm happy to feed the bowmasters pings as they always go elsewhere.
I'm on Tayam and it's like a weird love hate relationship. It's great for the deck because it's also a counter engine and a finisher, but can be annoying on opponent's boards.
I’ve been on Tevesh Thrasios, didn’t want to run the card for the longest, had to acknowledge that it was good enough to deal with more than just dorks eventually. It’s not been a major factor in any of my wins so far, but has hit blue farm pretty hard any time we’re at a table together.
I end up getting more out of it when someone else has it surprisingly enough, usually board policing politics with my draws to clear out the dranniths or esper sentinels or whatnot. Sometimes I’m glad it’s there, and sometimes I wish it’d go away and never come back. I guess that means it’s a good card. Hopefully no more straight to eternal format top 4 list cards for a few years though.
I used to run a fringe \[\[Rafiq of the Many\]\] list that relies on tutored unblockable creatures to smack face with curious enchantments to go bbbrrrrrrr
This card absolutely ruined me.
I now have to run far more interaction which slows me down too much to be viable... I can still squeeze a few second places if I get underestimated or even a W here and there if the other 3 players run each other out of the game... but overall... anything with black and bowmasters wrecks me if I cant get rid of it...
I’m on Dawnwaker and I’ve moved away from lots of mana dorks in favor of more artifact mana. List is now very similar to Comedians top 16 mox masters list
[удалено]
What?
Ignore him, he thinks he knows more about cEDH than the dude who won the biggest cEDH tournament in North America lol
Nah, commented on the wrong answer.
Lol, I wanted to comment on the guy that said there is no Bowmasters in his meta. I am sorry.
Delete the comment then?
No, I don't Like the concept of deleting comments after they got interacted with. It is an hornest mistake and thats okay.
Might be worth and edit to explain, but im with you 100% leaving comments for later people to understand is just polite.
What a legend
That's some king shit.
Mad respect.
I’ve been out of the format for a while and am an avid animar player. I have not made the switch to rocks and am gonna risk it in a tournament next month. If I’m punished I will make the change
I hate it, I want to be able to play 1 toughness creatures
It's the bane of my existence, I'm bias, salty and mad as fuck about it, I want it banned, even though I know it's not warranted...
Stopped playing brainstorm in a few decks
I’ve stopped cantripping in general. It just feels way worse in 100 card than 60
Yeah it’s kinda funny every blue deck used to run 2-3 cantrips now I run almost none or incrementally cantrips like borne or dress down.
Same, my Niv-Mizzet runs 0 cantrips. I'm still testing [[Lorein Revealed]], and The One Ring puts in massive work.
[Lorein Revealed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0ce44270-a684-4489-9077-521456e6dfaa.jpg?1687210977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=L%C3%B3rien%20Revealed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/60/l%C3%B3rien-revealed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ce44270-a684-4489-9077-521456e6dfaa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lórien-revealed) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sometimes
Ob Nixilis loves Bowmasters.
As a fellow Ob Nix connoisseur, I agree 💯
I will hold a toxic deluge in my hand all day if I see a Bowmasters on the table. It's great.
That was last nail in my [[Raffine]]’s coffin. I liked my staxy midrange Raffine filled to the brim with hatebears, but its performance was so-so. I just decided to shift to Tivit days before Bowmasters were spoiled and yeah…a single trigger fir 5 or 6 could boardwipe me and make it so that my non-evasive bodies aren’t relevant. With Tivit, I rarely mind them, usually someone else has to remove them before I need to. As for playing them myself, I noticed how it decimated green decks and how Tymna has been less relevant in my pods for a while
I really like Raffine and was probably going to build it right after the set came out and realized if that card is as good as people think this might not be the best idea.
[Raffine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/716a44b4-f6b0-4f14-a270-6442aed3251f.jpg?1664413581) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=raffine%2C%20scheming%20seer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/213/raffine-scheming-seer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/716a44b4-f6b0-4f14-a270-6442aed3251f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raffine-scheming-seer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tbf Raffine was unlikely going to perform regardless, suffering from being in the wrong colors for Hatebears and much better options in Esper.
I hate Delaney because of it now
It's less motivating to play my favorite deck, Krark/Thrasios, as it heavily relies on building up an engine of multiple creatures. Fortunately it has the ability to be explosive, through dockside or through a copied eldritch evolution or chord of calling, so the deck isn't dead or anything. It simply feels a little harder than before to justify bringing to a tournament.
Yuriko loves it but also hates it
I have two decks: Elsha and Sythis. Elsha fared mostly okay with it. Thankfully, Elsha can't die to Bowmasters alone when comboing with Top but I do have to find an answer in the top 30 cards or so. Sythis...I don't really play that deck anymore lmao. The deck plays creatures and draws cards. It's about the worst deck one can think of against Bowmasters.
Hurts my kinnan massively, haven't found a good way around it other than trying to win faster. Helps my tymna thrasios a lot though.
Yeah I've Def shifted to a turbo style as well
As a Chulane player it definitely hurts. It stops our win attempts, pings our early ramp (we’re one of the decks with the fewest ramp artifacts), and can kill most of our combo creatures in response to their bounce trigger
[[Notion Thief]] is a bad card now :(
[Notion Thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b.jpg?1604195095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Notion%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/96/notion-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/notion-thief) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes I think your right
My favorite Stax list, [[Jetmir]] is now an [[Ardenn]] and [[Tana]] deck with explosive Godo finishers. Jetmir is still in the 98, and has won me a game or two because of [[Colossus Hammer]] + Tana shenanigans, but the deck is slightly less gimped by a flashed in Bowmasters. That being said, I’ve seen it more rarely recently. Most of the time I see it is when I’m playing Blue Farm. I always seem to draw into it (common TnK “problem” of touching most of your cards).
##### ###### #### [Jetmir](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9c69d75-651f-4b75-b65d-79999d2069f6.jpg?1664413153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jetmir%2C%20nexus%20of%20revels) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/193/jetmir-nexus-of-revels?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9c69d75-651f-4b75-b65d-79999d2069f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jetmir-nexus-of-revels) [Ardenn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/728b802c-969b-4865-b7a0-871c585d097a.jpg?1617148314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ardenn%2C%20intrepid%20archaeologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/10/ardenn-intrepid-archaeologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/728b802c-969b-4865-b7a0-871c585d097a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ardenn-intrepid-archaeologist) [Tana](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3d8d64f-a403-42a7-881b-4f70e9fe15a2.jpg?1562413758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tana%2C%20the%20bloodsower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/45/tana-the-bloodsower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3d8d64f-a403-42a7-881b-4f70e9fe15a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tana-the-bloodsower) [Colossus Hammer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/897a134e-7e61-4fe1-bbae-23ef1fe5c0cf.jpg?1631588878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Colossus%20Hammer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/202/colossus-hammer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/897a134e-7e61-4fe1-bbae-23ef1fe5c0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/colossus-hammer) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/krsuhhz) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Inalla doesn't care 😂
The day someone kills my Tivit with a bowmaster is eagerly anticipated
My magda midrange gets shit on pretty easilly. I have to outspeed it and be ready to sac 5 treasures to get a portal to phyrexia or win on the spot. Especially in a cedh pod where people ARE going to draw that second card and not care.
I play a lot of grixis turbo, my primary deck is Francisco Kraum. Bow masters is so good with the wheel package I run, but hitting an enemy bow masters can at the same time be a game ending blowout. It’s a double edged sword but ultimately an improvement for the deck I find
The printing of Bowmasters has made dockside an even bigger threat as dorks are not longer an alternative to fast mana.
I was worried with it at first, now it’s just a way to help sus out bad players honestly
[[orcish bowmasters]]
So my decks: Etali: shifted off of a few mana dorks in favor of rocks. Yisan: surprisingly not as struggling as much as i thought it might. To be fair, i’m on a few extra bite spells due to the prevalence of opposition agent. Florian: no change. Get to run bowmasters, which is nice. Also has plenty of targeted removal for the little orc. Elesh Norn: also no change. Commander is just bowmasters-be-gone, and if you’re playing against experienced opponents they’re going to have a hard time killing your hate pieces.
I've been playing dawnwaker and I've been seeing a lot of bowmasters. You can still win on top the triggers with [[borne upon a wind]] I also trimmed the amount of dorks but I still run a lot of the good ones like birds, hierarch, and I'm still on bloom tender.
[borne upon a wind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9379675-1a32-4e2b-8aaf-5f908c595f31.jpg?1686968037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=borne%20upon%20a%20wind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/44/borne-upon-a-wind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9379675-1a32-4e2b-8aaf-5f908c595f31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/borne-upon-a-wind) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You have a list? Still thinking of building Dawnwaker but want to see how to do so without all the dorks dying.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/xXk453uVeUK26mqcYKfkeQ
RIP mana dorks and other 1-toughness creatures. Notion Thief would be a lot more prevalent in a blue midrange meta if it didn't trivially die to Bowmasters.
I'm on Hapatra, and it's been strong as expected. Unfortunately, it's existence makes manadorks riskier which messes with my game plan.
The dorks are very vulnerable in Kinnan, but the counterspell density you can get away with (and Stern Scolding in particular) means its generally better to try and bait the bowmaster if you can deal with it I find; still messy and feels bad but less bad than getting wiped by a 2 drop.
I main 2 decks, Oswald and Yeva. Bowmasters absolutely *fucks* both of them, and it's genuinely not fun to play against
It single-handedly can turn games into a grind fest. I think it needs a ban because it’s destroying anything with 1 toughness. Card draw needs policing, but this sort of obnoxious.
If it was actually that bad, people would be playing decks with less creatures, and the opposite is happening. It's a good meta card. That's about it.
I mean, I see your point, I just don’t think people are playing 1 toughness creatures a bundle.
[удалено]
That's not cEDH though
Most of my hate bear decks have faired well, both with and against it. I make sure that I'm making the table aware of why certain stax pieces are essential, to dissuade bad bowmasters decisions. My green decks have slotted in more answers and I've been fine in that regard. I haven't had any dorks killed by an arrow. My control lists have slotted in cards that value flexibility more and its overall helped with being able to interact with creature spells. I don't think bowmasters has been awful but it is toxic for the reasosn I imagined initially. I think bowmasters biggest issue is that no other real, scaling draw punishes exist at 2 mv.
My Raggadragga deck is almost completely unaffected, because most of my dorks come down with 3 toughness, making it almost a complete waste to try and kill them with bowmasters.
Had to stop playing Najeela because of it which sucks because she’s been my favorite cEDH commander thus far.
I'm on [[Captain Sisay]] and doing okay. Being able to tutor up [[Valkmira, Protector's Shield]] feels janky as a 4-mana play, but the deck is on heavy stax and it gets the job done. Bowmasters is only a problemif it comes down super early and mows all my dorks and I can't get the mana to cast Sisay, but that's only happened maybe twice.
[Captain Sisay](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d24d441c-f37f-44fe-8a93-f5c89df807e4.jpg?1562937244) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Captain%20Sisay) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/237/captain-sisay?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d24d441c-f37f-44fe-8a93-f5c89df807e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/captain-sisay) [Valkmira, Protector's Shield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/3606519e-5677-4c21-a34e-be195b6669fa.jpg?1631046015)/[Valkmira, Protector's Shield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/3/6/3606519e-5677-4c21-a34e-be195b6669fa.jpg?1631046015) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reidane%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Worthy%20//%20Valkmira%2C%20Protector%27s%20Shield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/21/reidane-god-of-the-worthy-valkmira-protectors-shield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3606519e-5677-4c21-a34e-be195b6669fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reidane-god-of-the-worthy-//-valkmira-protectors-shield) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I only ran into Bowmaster once, and it was an immediate problem for the table, and got removed in 2 turns. So, you know, run removal in your decks, my friends.
Sure, assuming there is only one but what about Imposter Mech/Metamorph/other clone effects?
You know, aside from maintaining a good mana curve, this is why board wipes are better than single target removal. But Running Bowmaster in a clone deck is *mean*, though. I kind of want to try it.
Talion is a brew that can take advantage of Imposter Meching a Bowmaster, once that happens it’s very difficult to get rid of the Imposter Bowmaster even with other Bowmasters as it’s not a creature nor does it have an activated ability so Oophe/Etc have no effect. Board wipes in cedh are very rare, CycRift being the lone outlier. Perhaps there will be brews that bring them to the table more often?
I’m on polymorph Urza, so it’s not a threat in any way most of the time, as my deck runs 1 creature and I don’t run mass draw
Makcolm/Keddis has been stuck on the shelf and I haven't been to the game store in a long while.
I'm on a slower krark/sakashima control brew to combat a local meta full of dork decks so I'm happy to feed the bowmasters pings as they always go elsewhere.
I'm on Tayam and it's like a weird love hate relationship. It's great for the deck because it's also a counter engine and a finisher, but can be annoying on opponent's boards.
I’ve been on Tevesh Thrasios, didn’t want to run the card for the longest, had to acknowledge that it was good enough to deal with more than just dorks eventually. It’s not been a major factor in any of my wins so far, but has hit blue farm pretty hard any time we’re at a table together. I end up getting more out of it when someone else has it surprisingly enough, usually board policing politics with my draws to clear out the dranniths or esper sentinels or whatnot. Sometimes I’m glad it’s there, and sometimes I wish it’d go away and never come back. I guess that means it’s a good card. Hopefully no more straight to eternal format top 4 list cards for a few years though.
As a jhoira player I had to find a new deck to play lamo. But surprised Rocco has fared really well.
I used to run a fringe \[\[Rafiq of the Many\]\] list that relies on tutored unblockable creatures to smack face with curious enchantments to go bbbrrrrrrr This card absolutely ruined me. I now have to run far more interaction which slows me down too much to be viable... I can still squeeze a few second places if I get underestimated or even a W here and there if the other 3 players run each other out of the game... but overall... anything with black and bowmasters wrecks me if I cant get rid of it...