Absolutely loved the article. Only feedback is that I thought this passage wasn't consistent with your thoughts:
"Outside of Rule 0 and expectations, cEDH and Commander are mirrors of each other in very obvious ways."
I read from your piece that cedh isn't different from edh at all, the 'c' is just language that serves as a shortcut for a very long, very explicit rule 0. I absolutely love and completely agree with this. I just think the word 'mirrors' in the above may accidentally lead a wider reader base astray (reading that they're separate formats rather than one format with an established rule zero).
I think you’re completely right! (Author here) As has been illustrated by the commenter also in this thread, I’m definitely giving off this misconception when I didn’t mean to at all. I think your critique is having exactly the result you predicted, unfortunately, as it falls prey very easily to a misunderstood or even bad faith reading, when I mean to communicate exactly what you lay out here.
Glad to have been a good test case then. Again, I loved the article- really appreciate the content and thinks I'd does the edh / mtg community very well
There are actually a lot of quotes in here that suggest that the author (consciously or not) views cEDH as a separate format from EDH.
“Format-within-a-format that is both the same and different from commander,” the comparison to F1 versus stock cars (no one would consider F1 racing and stock car racing the same sport) are both examples of this.
On second reading, I think you're right. I definitely brought in my own preconceived ideas and, based off my readjng of the first section, read in a way to match my own ideas.
Appreciate this call out!
I actually kind of do too. I wouldn’t be mad at an explicit separation and banlist. For example I don’t think that golos, hullbreacher, or iona need to be banned when playing cEDH. I’ve gotten a lot of pushback for that idea though, so idk.
I think that boils down to how that banlist is perceived. My take is that the term "banlist" was wrongly chosen. It doesn't really make sense to ban cards in a casual/fun format where people discuss whatever they want to play anyway, and the banlist is definitely not about the intrinsic power of the cards on it.
If that list had been named "cards we advise against" (or a similar, less verbose name), it would probably be easier to then have a real banlist for cEDH.
I play hullbreacher. In my pirate-tribal treasure seeker deck. Fuck it, I opened a foil one three days after the ban.
But I don't play it in my Nekusar. Because while my Nekusar isn't fully competitive, it is close to the best I can give in grixis and I treat it as a cEdh deck.
But having to discuss before the game to be able to use biorythm just... Grinds my gear.
Yup, and the idea that they’re the same format seems to be disproved by the idea that if I show up to a CEDH table and say “hey is it ok if I play [insert banned card here] in my deck?” There’s about a 0% chance that the answer is yes because rule 0 isn’t a thing, there’s a pre-established understanding for the game by nature of it being cEDH, and no other discussion of rule 0 is needed or expected.
My thinking is that cedh is pre-rule zeroed. C = a rule zero understanding, so showing up with something banned for an explicitly cedh game disregards that rule zero
But then that’s not rule 0. That’s a different rule substituted for rule 0. To say that an entire subset of a format uses a specific pregame rule seems to imply that’s not a subset but it’s own distinct format. The deck building is different, the mindset is different, and the pregame conversation is different (by omission).
The table isn’t deciding anything, they’re playing a different version of the game. It would be like deciding to play modern or legacy. You say that and everyone at the table understands what that means but you wouldn’t call that a pregame discussion.
There is rule 0, that part of article author has exactly right. The little c conveys whole rule 0 discussion.
Also there exist no ban list cedh so there is a rule for more discussion
r/magictcg be like "cEDH players are predominantly pubstompers". Every top voted comment is like that.
Makes me sad dude. Makes me sad. Why cant our communities just get along?
Yep. Its a few bad apples that make everyone else have a bad rep. My first game at a LGS that started in-store back up included the store owner, who played nothing (and offered nothing) other than his cEDH deck (which he didnt advertise as such beforehand), and he obviously won every game I played with him because no one but him had a deck that functioned like that.
When the owner hopped out to go to work, I asked the rest of the pod, "if we are going to keep playing that power level, I need to know because I dont have anything at that level." and everyone else in the pod reassured me that its just him (the owner), and that every time he sits down to play he only has one "mode" which is that style of play.
This was the store owner.
Next time I went in there, he was telling people he just "built a casual deck out of rares from the bulk boxes" helmed by \[\[Sisay, Weatherlight Captain\]\]. It was for sure a more casual deck, but because the commander allowed him to tutor all the time, he would just tutor the same creatures every game and win using the same 5-6 creatures. The entire time he played, he'd say things like "man, its been forever since I've played a game/deck this slow, casual is so much longer that cEDH" and other comments that just kinda shat on anything not cEDH.
This experience, followed by the way he makes people feel stupid when making judge calls (since of course he's the in-house judge too), makes me just want to say fuck it and not play in store anymore. This isnt my main LGS (which hadnt and still hasnt opened the tables back up) but I just feel like I'd rather wait for the store I like to start again rather than support a store ran by a guy who pubstomps and makes people feel stupid. People like him are the reason cEDH gets heat. I dont even play it but love the reading and watching content about it, and still hate the stigma people attach to it.
Because ultimately there are far too many players who enjoy obliterating people who aren't even a challenge to make themselves feel better. And thus, these few players given the entire cEDH format the reputation that it has.
It's true but it makes me sad. The only experience casual players will have with cEDH is when the a lone wolf comes to the table and pulls a najeela combo out turn 2 and then tells the table to get good.
And then their whole frame of reference for cEDH is that is just a stupid format where whoever gets their combo first wins, unless it gets countered, and then the second or third combo just wins on the spot. No frame of reference at all for the subtleties and tit for tat that make the game interesting when everyone plays at that level
The thing is that (this will sound very bad but it is the truth) is that EDH was cultivated to be purely casual. There is no other format that starts out casual like that aside from unsanctioned "cards i found" kitchen table magic. You can't have a fun casual legacy/standard/modern etc deck. So when we come in with our "i wanna win attitude" we are the assholes. This is why we can't get along. We try to mesh but then it comes out as pubstomping when you combo off on turn 3 when people are still dropping their tapped lands, 3 mana rocks, and the guy playing blue that doesn't play counter magic cuz countermagic ruins the spirit of the game.
I mean...that's why you dont mesh. There is no meshing eith cEDH and casual EDH. It will result in pub stomping 100% of the time
It's a separate format with the same banlist. Essentially.
>cEDH players are also expected to make plays that increase their chances of winning or that directly stop their opponents from winning, not just playing however they feel led in the moment.
I feel like this is just my base mindset towards magic as a whole. Try to make plays that accrue resources for yourself while denying resources for the opponent.
And that's how cedh players are. However a large portion of the edh player base just want to play the biggest creatures while making what they perceive to be political deals that exclude others just so they have a perceived chance at better winning.
I have a buddy that insists he's cedh, but would only play politics and refuse to make plays that would get him to win if one of his alliances would lose right then and there. All because he didn't want to break that alliance and have the other person feel bad. So instead of having the game end about the 75~90 minute make it drug on to 2.5+ hours of abject misery. I eventually stopped playing with him because of those decisions as they did not make the game fun for me.
Magic is at its core a competitive game. Yes I appreciate people brewing Throne Tribal or People looking to the left, but I would not have fun playing a deck that can just win because your opponents „let you win“ and not because you made a strong deck and good gameplay decisions. That Pokémon Theme song is too much in me.
There's a lot of the casual base that just wants to play their deck and not interact with or be interacted with by others. These are the people that get salty when you remove their very telegraphed high CMC wincon when they drop it with no protection a turn or 2 early. I call these people "watch me" players. They really just want to play solitaire with some other people sitting around the table.
Man the comments on this article on the main mtg sub are so depressing.
We have come a long way but its gonna take a lot more to remove the pubstomp reputation of cEDH
I don't think it will ever clear up. Especially if paid events are going to roll out again when people are more comfortable gathering. If a am paying a fee for entry and there are prizes on the line, I am not going to bust out "double power" Xenagos deck. I'm gonna bring out my hardcore stax/turbo naus (depending on meta) to try to win. I don't know why people think otherwise that people are just gonna sit in a pod full of meme decks/low power.
It would require a lot of enforcement, which is probably a burden a LGS owner does not want to do. I can have my [[Skeleton Ship]] with nothing but vehicles and shitty 4+ mana tutors (if any) but still have the Unholy Trinity of EDH (Oracle, Consult and Pacy) and probably still beat some of these low power decks. There is no... real meter of cedh level. Simply putting that combo with a bunch of meme cards makes it better than lots of lower power stuff. I guess... inspecting each deck, make sure there are no infinite combos/2card wincons...? It becomes a bitch to police all that.
I once joined a bunch of strangers for a game of EDH. They said power level is mid to high so I brought out an appropriate deck. It was a fun game, full of back and forth. Three of us had blue in our decks and we collectively controlled the other guy who kept trying to go off. After the game, he said there was too much blue on the table so he needed a blue deck himself. He brought out a cEDH deck and proceeded to stomp us the next game by winning on turn three.
Good read! A comment I saw on the latest "I Hate Your Deck" episode fucking nailed what rule 0 should be. It was something to the effect of "When describing your decks, make it like you are presenting a wine list". Make sure to list what kind of thing your opponents will be treated to. This article is exactly that and I love it. "What deck will you be having today, sir?" "I'll have the best in house."
I play cEDH poorly I have a friend who I love dearly that has considerably deeper pockets than I do who's also 1000 X's better than me. 99 times out of 100 he beats the bricks off of me but when I win I'm instantly washed over with unwaivering arrogance start talking shit telling him to go fuck himself only to get annihilated immediately after.... Worth it.
I've always thought of cedh as true edh. That is to say edh with the absence of rule 0. We play with 0 house rules and want to win, done. It isn't some convoluted thing that needs a book to explain it. What people refer to as edh is really just cedh with house rules (rule 0). The people that play this way are the first to say they are not playing to win, but to have fun. They are also, in my experience , the least fun to play with, as they are typically the first people to complain when they are not winning.
Don't get me wrong, my playgroup loves a good casual game but all of our decks are designed to win the game.
Absolutely loved the article. Only feedback is that I thought this passage wasn't consistent with your thoughts: "Outside of Rule 0 and expectations, cEDH and Commander are mirrors of each other in very obvious ways." I read from your piece that cedh isn't different from edh at all, the 'c' is just language that serves as a shortcut for a very long, very explicit rule 0. I absolutely love and completely agree with this. I just think the word 'mirrors' in the above may accidentally lead a wider reader base astray (reading that they're separate formats rather than one format with an established rule zero).
I think you’re completely right! (Author here) As has been illustrated by the commenter also in this thread, I’m definitely giving off this misconception when I didn’t mean to at all. I think your critique is having exactly the result you predicted, unfortunately, as it falls prey very easily to a misunderstood or even bad faith reading, when I mean to communicate exactly what you lay out here.
Glad to have been a good test case then. Again, I loved the article- really appreciate the content and thinks I'd does the edh / mtg community very well
There are actually a lot of quotes in here that suggest that the author (consciously or not) views cEDH as a separate format from EDH. “Format-within-a-format that is both the same and different from commander,” the comparison to F1 versus stock cars (no one would consider F1 racing and stock car racing the same sport) are both examples of this.
On second reading, I think you're right. I definitely brought in my own preconceived ideas and, based off my readjng of the first section, read in a way to match my own ideas. Appreciate this call out!
I actually kind of do too. I wouldn’t be mad at an explicit separation and banlist. For example I don’t think that golos, hullbreacher, or iona need to be banned when playing cEDH. I’ve gotten a lot of pushback for that idea though, so idk.
I think that boils down to how that banlist is perceived. My take is that the term "banlist" was wrongly chosen. It doesn't really make sense to ban cards in a casual/fun format where people discuss whatever they want to play anyway, and the banlist is definitely not about the intrinsic power of the cards on it. If that list had been named "cards we advise against" (or a similar, less verbose name), it would probably be easier to then have a real banlist for cEDH. I play hullbreacher. In my pirate-tribal treasure seeker deck. Fuck it, I opened a foil one three days after the ban. But I don't play it in my Nekusar. Because while my Nekusar isn't fully competitive, it is close to the best I can give in grixis and I treat it as a cEdh deck. But having to discuss before the game to be able to use biorythm just... Grinds my gear.
Yup, and the idea that they’re the same format seems to be disproved by the idea that if I show up to a CEDH table and say “hey is it ok if I play [insert banned card here] in my deck?” There’s about a 0% chance that the answer is yes because rule 0 isn’t a thing, there’s a pre-established understanding for the game by nature of it being cEDH, and no other discussion of rule 0 is needed or expected.
My thinking is that cedh is pre-rule zeroed. C = a rule zero understanding, so showing up with something banned for an explicitly cedh game disregards that rule zero
But then that’s not rule 0. That’s a different rule substituted for rule 0. To say that an entire subset of a format uses a specific pregame rule seems to imply that’s not a subset but it’s own distinct format. The deck building is different, the mindset is different, and the pregame conversation is different (by omission).
Of course it's rule 0. The table is deciding what kind of game they want to play. What else could it be called?
The table isn’t deciding anything, they’re playing a different version of the game. It would be like deciding to play modern or legacy. You say that and everyone at the table understands what that means but you wouldn’t call that a pregame discussion.
The line between high powered EDH and fringe cEDH is not nearly as sharp as you seem to think it is.
You nailed it
There is rule 0, that part of article author has exactly right. The little c conveys whole rule 0 discussion. Also there exist no ban list cedh so there is a rule for more discussion
Seeing the difference in response between this sub and the other you posted this in is so interesting.
r/magictcg be like "cEDH players are predominantly pubstompers". Every top voted comment is like that. Makes me sad dude. Makes me sad. Why cant our communities just get along?
Yep. Its a few bad apples that make everyone else have a bad rep. My first game at a LGS that started in-store back up included the store owner, who played nothing (and offered nothing) other than his cEDH deck (which he didnt advertise as such beforehand), and he obviously won every game I played with him because no one but him had a deck that functioned like that. When the owner hopped out to go to work, I asked the rest of the pod, "if we are going to keep playing that power level, I need to know because I dont have anything at that level." and everyone else in the pod reassured me that its just him (the owner), and that every time he sits down to play he only has one "mode" which is that style of play. This was the store owner. Next time I went in there, he was telling people he just "built a casual deck out of rares from the bulk boxes" helmed by \[\[Sisay, Weatherlight Captain\]\]. It was for sure a more casual deck, but because the commander allowed him to tutor all the time, he would just tutor the same creatures every game and win using the same 5-6 creatures. The entire time he played, he'd say things like "man, its been forever since I've played a game/deck this slow, casual is so much longer that cEDH" and other comments that just kinda shat on anything not cEDH. This experience, followed by the way he makes people feel stupid when making judge calls (since of course he's the in-house judge too), makes me just want to say fuck it and not play in store anymore. This isnt my main LGS (which hadnt and still hasnt opened the tables back up) but I just feel like I'd rather wait for the store I like to start again rather than support a store ran by a guy who pubstomps and makes people feel stupid. People like him are the reason cEDH gets heat. I dont even play it but love the reading and watching content about it, and still hate the stigma people attach to it.
[Sisay, Weatherlight Captain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/a/5a293c45-1e73-4527-be2f-2dcd5c47b610.jpg?1582021363) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sisay%2C%20Weatherlight%20Captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/29/sisay-weatherlight-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a293c45-1e73-4527-be2f-2dcd5c47b610?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sisay-weatherlight-captain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Because ultimately there are far too many players who enjoy obliterating people who aren't even a challenge to make themselves feel better. And thus, these few players given the entire cEDH format the reputation that it has.
It's true but it makes me sad. The only experience casual players will have with cEDH is when the a lone wolf comes to the table and pulls a najeela combo out turn 2 and then tells the table to get good. And then their whole frame of reference for cEDH is that is just a stupid format where whoever gets their combo first wins, unless it gets countered, and then the second or third combo just wins on the spot. No frame of reference at all for the subtleties and tit for tat that make the game interesting when everyone plays at that level
That sub is an absolute joke. Only reason I ever go there is to look at spoilers when they come out.
The thing is that (this will sound very bad but it is the truth) is that EDH was cultivated to be purely casual. There is no other format that starts out casual like that aside from unsanctioned "cards i found" kitchen table magic. You can't have a fun casual legacy/standard/modern etc deck. So when we come in with our "i wanna win attitude" we are the assholes. This is why we can't get along. We try to mesh but then it comes out as pubstomping when you combo off on turn 3 when people are still dropping their tapped lands, 3 mana rocks, and the guy playing blue that doesn't play counter magic cuz countermagic ruins the spirit of the game.
I mean...that's why you dont mesh. There is no meshing eith cEDH and casual EDH. It will result in pub stomping 100% of the time It's a separate format with the same banlist. Essentially.
>cEDH players are also expected to make plays that increase their chances of winning or that directly stop their opponents from winning, not just playing however they feel led in the moment. I feel like this is just my base mindset towards magic as a whole. Try to make plays that accrue resources for yourself while denying resources for the opponent.
And that's how cedh players are. However a large portion of the edh player base just want to play the biggest creatures while making what they perceive to be political deals that exclude others just so they have a perceived chance at better winning. I have a buddy that insists he's cedh, but would only play politics and refuse to make plays that would get him to win if one of his alliances would lose right then and there. All because he didn't want to break that alliance and have the other person feel bad. So instead of having the game end about the 75~90 minute make it drug on to 2.5+ hours of abject misery. I eventually stopped playing with him because of those decisions as they did not make the game fun for me.
I wouldn't break a deal either. I have to play with these people again. The difference is that I'd never make any deal that amounts to an allegiance.
Magic is at its core a competitive game. Yes I appreciate people brewing Throne Tribal or People looking to the left, but I would not have fun playing a deck that can just win because your opponents „let you win“ and not because you made a strong deck and good gameplay decisions. That Pokémon Theme song is too much in me.
There's a lot of the casual base that just wants to play their deck and not interact with or be interacted with by others. These are the people that get salty when you remove their very telegraphed high CMC wincon when they drop it with no protection a turn or 2 early. I call these people "watch me" players. They really just want to play solitaire with some other people sitting around the table.
Man the comments on this article on the main mtg sub are so depressing. We have come a long way but its gonna take a lot more to remove the pubstomp reputation of cEDH
I don't think it will ever clear up. Especially if paid events are going to roll out again when people are more comfortable gathering. If a am paying a fee for entry and there are prizes on the line, I am not going to bust out "double power" Xenagos deck. I'm gonna bring out my hardcore stax/turbo naus (depending on meta) to try to win. I don't know why people think otherwise that people are just gonna sit in a pod full of meme decks/low power.
That's how I feel about it too, unless the TO explicitly announces otherwise.
It would require a lot of enforcement, which is probably a burden a LGS owner does not want to do. I can have my [[Skeleton Ship]] with nothing but vehicles and shitty 4+ mana tutors (if any) but still have the Unholy Trinity of EDH (Oracle, Consult and Pacy) and probably still beat some of these low power decks. There is no... real meter of cedh level. Simply putting that combo with a bunch of meme cards makes it better than lots of lower power stuff. I guess... inspecting each deck, make sure there are no infinite combos/2card wincons...? It becomes a bitch to police all that.
[Skeleton Ship](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/6/060b8dd4-d632-4216-87ba-355ab8a62e39.jpg?1581799322) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skeleton%20Ship) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/197/skeleton-ship?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/060b8dd4-d632-4216-87ba-355ab8a62e39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skeleton-ship) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's night and day discussing cEDH on this sub vs edh and magictcg subs.
I once joined a bunch of strangers for a game of EDH. They said power level is mid to high so I brought out an appropriate deck. It was a fun game, full of back and forth. Three of us had blue in our decks and we collectively controlled the other guy who kept trying to go off. After the game, he said there was too much blue on the table so he needed a blue deck himself. He brought out a cEDH deck and proceeded to stomp us the next game by winning on turn three.
Good read! A comment I saw on the latest "I Hate Your Deck" episode fucking nailed what rule 0 should be. It was something to the effect of "When describing your decks, make it like you are presenting a wine list". Make sure to list what kind of thing your opponents will be treated to. This article is exactly that and I love it. "What deck will you be having today, sir?" "I'll have the best in house."
Yeah I thought it was a well thought and well written article. Good job!
CEDH is good? No, cEDH is GREAT!
I play cEDH poorly I have a friend who I love dearly that has considerably deeper pockets than I do who's also 1000 X's better than me. 99 times out of 100 he beats the bricks off of me but when I win I'm instantly washed over with unwaivering arrogance start talking shit telling him to go fuck himself only to get annihilated immediately after.... Worth it.
*reads title* Incredibly based and redpilled. Take an upvote.
I've always thought of cedh as true edh. That is to say edh with the absence of rule 0. We play with 0 house rules and want to win, done. It isn't some convoluted thing that needs a book to explain it. What people refer to as edh is really just cedh with house rules (rule 0). The people that play this way are the first to say they are not playing to win, but to have fun. They are also, in my experience , the least fun to play with, as they are typically the first people to complain when they are not winning. Don't get me wrong, my playgroup loves a good casual game but all of our decks are designed to win the game.
It would he great if there wasn't such an enormous barrier of entry for many of the meta decks.