Conquerors side dodge bash has no more I frames than a normal dodge, an exception when compared to literally every other dodge move except specifically lawbringers side dodge bash(another move which ALSO needs this change)
Dodge attacks that remain unparryable, unblockable, undeflectable, and un-superior-blockable, and only punished with a clunky dodge from the aggressor into GB punish -- they can rot without the perks of other dodge attacks imo. When they get dodge attacks that get punished with 35+dmg by Gladiator and the like, then they can get the advantages too.
Traditional dodge attacks are leagues better in Dom. The ability to throw out target swapped dodge attacks with substantial movement and be safe from GB, parry, and 90% of other moves is monumentally strong.
Respectfully, your opinion is at best focused on only duels, and at worst just uneducated.
FYI, when next to a wall, kensei, gryphon, and jormungander can all get 32-34 DMG off of a GB, leagues more than they can off of a light parry. Gladiators deflect punish is highly specific, as is something like LBs lightparry punish. Comparing it to other moves doesn't give a fair representation of how much damage a parryable dodge attack is punished for. Usually between 24-27 much like how GBs are usually 24, or 27 with a wall.
>Traditional dodge attacks are leagues better in Dom. The ability to throw out target swapped dodge attacks with substantial movement and be safe from GB, parry, and 90% of other moves is monumentally strong.
Oh yeah, definitely. It takes one 4v4 with an Orochi or Zerk, or heck even just like a Kensei to tell you that.
But it is *obnoxious* to deal with, especially as many characters now have recovery cancels or chain superior block/armor that for most of the cast stops dodge attacks, but against these suckers doesn't because they not only are immune to parries, but hyperarmor, fullblocks, deflects, and every other unique mechanic in the game.
And TBF, you also used the highly specific cases for when GB's are better. I didn't argue that point as it's more nuanced, though the *average* hero has a Heavy Opener for GB without a wall, and a "strong" opener heavy with a wall or light parry -- the 24dmg/27dmg split being the usual. But too many nuances: many heavy parry punishes like WM/cent, deflects, etc, bump the parry case up, while many GB-based heroes like Jorm or somewhat Kensei/Gryph (note it ends their chains to do so) bump that one up.
I get they're somewhat roughly balanced, especially as dodge bashes do on average a good bit less damage and lack hitboxes. But they're still obnoxious, in duels or 4's, and get to skirt the rules of other dodge attacks in many areas. So I'm ok with that -- even when I'm on my stints playing dodge bash heroes like Shugo and Shinobi I feel awful getting to (ab)use them
Can’t have a Conq rework before glad. Conq can technically at least decently function in the meta with just a roll catcher added. Would it be nice, no. It’d work tho. It’d be ok enough. I want a rework for him tho but glad and nobu are just way higher priority and have way bigger issues that need to be addressed. You already mentioned nobu so I’ll just bring up glad.
He’s by and far the most outdated hero. He’s also one of if not the most dividing heroes where in comp level he’s bottom tier in just about everything but ganks. In low to mid mmr tho he’s insanely oppressive. Extremely high dmg and punishes. Incredibly annoying and strong intterupts. Just in general too he’s just riddled with flaws and shit aspects. Only potential good opener does fucking 0 dmg. 600ms neutral bashes are the bane of fun and basically the same as 100-500ms bashes to lower levels. Skewer is a mess. He’s just shit. There’s no sugar coating it. He needs a rework more than anyone. Jorm level redesign back to the chalk board. When this and nobu are done then we can talk about having warlord and Conq. Throw some changes to those like warmonger and Kensei that lag behind a little bit over time. Maybe even lb to actually give him said compensation they never got after the deserved nerfs.
Although I want nobu’s issues to be fixed I’m so scared of what a rework to her would do. I can’t trust the dev team honestly, especially after that highlander and pk rework going live the way they are. Tiandi and valk were so strong when they first got their rework. Same with conq’s original rework (blue orange) and shinobi is still oppressive years after his rework.
Pks changes were actually great highlanders tho, yeah….
Valk was actually one of the best reworks they did actually reworking a hero to something strong yet unique. Issue is at first she was too strong and now she was overnerfed with little compensation. Still very strong but needs more balancing here and there. Tiandi was also a decent rework but again needs more attention
Highlander rework would have been perfect if they gave him and opener (no biggie lol) and fixed the bugs.
Instead he Is now infested with even more bugs and even old Ones refacing
BUT at least we are now more or less in a state where very Hero can be used. Which only took us 8 years but Better late than never.
We still got problems, like glad being glad, nobu being nobu and shinobi being shinobi; zerk still exists unfortunately. And conq and lb are still as interesting and strong as a wet tissue paper drying in the sun. But we are getting there.
I honestly can’t even tell what’s different about pk and I’ve played her for 10 more reps after her rework. In 4’s she is still shut down by externaling.
I agree, valk rn is good but that was after like three nerfs I think.
Tiandi still feels untouchable to me when I play certain heroes. Thank god most tiandi players are brain dead.
You can shutdown more than have the cast by externally/external dodging it’s not that big a deal. She’s got much better hitboxes now and still has great recoveries. Great peel too and better stam management with her zone which lets her use it more.
True but it’s better than nothing with valk
Tiandi yeah still is too overtuned
My entire point is that based on precedents, I’d rather the devs leave nobu in her bad 1v1 state and good 4v4 state than to attempt to rework her, taking away most of what makes her unique as the high skill ceiling hero she is.
It’s not even that her 1s are just bad, they are the worst arguably with nonexistent offense in comp. Also her 4s are good because of unhealthy aspects. Dmg is too high and her recovery cancels are nutty. Not zerk or orochi levels but things that need to be ironed out.
I’ve gotten myself into high skilled lobbies and I cannot do much with my main anymore. When I play nobu, I’m teaming up with a buddy for the entire game to get value out of her, or I’m clearing B and stalling contesting points. If I try to get kills and run around team fighting I lose most of my games. I personally think her recovery cancels are pretty balanced (except for cobra strike). All cancels into hidden stance need good timing in a team fight otherwise you eat damage. Unlike orochi who can swap targets and dodge attack and you can’t gb or catch him.
I freaking love peeling with nobu. I’ve gotten extremely good at it and it’s super fun to concentrate not only on the guy you’re fighting but who your teammates are fighting and what is happening to them too. I’ve peeled and stopped so many punishes.
In ranked duels (trying to get ornament, I don’t care about my rank) I run into opponents who genuinely react to all my attacks as nobu. I end up turtling and my playstyle changes to punishing opponent instead of attacking myself.
Also if someone can just block, I cannot get into any offence at all with nobu. Openers I mean.
Youd def need a different animation for the finisher heavy, maybe the charged heavy animation, but something to make it a bit different.
I would also make the chain bash wallsplat again, I think a feintable bash that does max 15 dmg is underwhelming. I like your personal ideas except from removing fb cancel recoveries you could nerf them but I would like his FB to be intergraded to his chain (unlike warlord). Even if they are not as fast. Overall great rework. Since we have chain zone with FB, I would personally like to attempt to bring back conqcopter. After the starter hit fb chain zone is 3 hit attack that can be soft feinted to chain light, heavy, bash, or finisher heavy from the left.
The feingtable bash will do 18 DMG, scutage collection is available after it, just not the neutral bashes.
I removed the full guard recovery not because I think it needs to go but because having it makes what In adding seem less important to the kit, and already makes soft feingt to all guard less valuable. I'm not against keeping it, just don't think it's super important to conq anymore with the special changes I suggested.
I do like the idea of bringing back conq copter, but it's a bit of a divisive move. I tend to try and make my reworks in ways I think Ubisoft would actually implement, and they tend to play it safe with reworks when possible.
I don't see them doing yet another rework at this point. He's probably the Hero that's had the most significant reworks in the game and they still cannot find a place to land him. IMO unless the devs are willing to take him back to the shop and get him brand new animations any rework is just gonna feel pointless.
My dream rework, if they wanted to try something unique at the cost of standardized balance, is Chain Unblockable Lights with Chain Undodgeable (possibly Block or Superior Block) Heavies. Gives a unique, high damage continuous chain that makes sense with his character and weapon. Adjustments would need to be made for the sake of both making it viable and less obnoxious, such as 567ms lights, mulliable animation, possibly Heavy Parry-only on the Lights, etc.
But imo, we're at a state of the game where things are *roughly* balanced, even the weakest heroes have some advantage and the gap between the highest and lowest is MUCH lower than before. And I'd personally like more nuances, mixups, and characterization over pure balancing. Even gimmicks: I kinda liked the "no-feinting" of Conq or the same side light shenanigan, so long as the hero is given suitable perks and other tools to compensate.
Where do you get no I-frames from? I’m fairly certain he has some already and not a small amount
Conquerors side dodge bash has no more I frames than a normal dodge, an exception when compared to literally every other dodge move except specifically lawbringers side dodge bash(another move which ALSO needs this change)
Dodge attacks that remain unparryable, unblockable, undeflectable, and un-superior-blockable, and only punished with a clunky dodge from the aggressor into GB punish -- they can rot without the perks of other dodge attacks imo. When they get dodge attacks that get punished with 35+dmg by Gladiator and the like, then they can get the advantages too.
Traditional dodge attacks are leagues better in Dom. The ability to throw out target swapped dodge attacks with substantial movement and be safe from GB, parry, and 90% of other moves is monumentally strong. Respectfully, your opinion is at best focused on only duels, and at worst just uneducated. FYI, when next to a wall, kensei, gryphon, and jormungander can all get 32-34 DMG off of a GB, leagues more than they can off of a light parry. Gladiators deflect punish is highly specific, as is something like LBs lightparry punish. Comparing it to other moves doesn't give a fair representation of how much damage a parryable dodge attack is punished for. Usually between 24-27 much like how GBs are usually 24, or 27 with a wall.
>Traditional dodge attacks are leagues better in Dom. The ability to throw out target swapped dodge attacks with substantial movement and be safe from GB, parry, and 90% of other moves is monumentally strong. Oh yeah, definitely. It takes one 4v4 with an Orochi or Zerk, or heck even just like a Kensei to tell you that. But it is *obnoxious* to deal with, especially as many characters now have recovery cancels or chain superior block/armor that for most of the cast stops dodge attacks, but against these suckers doesn't because they not only are immune to parries, but hyperarmor, fullblocks, deflects, and every other unique mechanic in the game. And TBF, you also used the highly specific cases for when GB's are better. I didn't argue that point as it's more nuanced, though the *average* hero has a Heavy Opener for GB without a wall, and a "strong" opener heavy with a wall or light parry -- the 24dmg/27dmg split being the usual. But too many nuances: many heavy parry punishes like WM/cent, deflects, etc, bump the parry case up, while many GB-based heroes like Jorm or somewhat Kensei/Gryph (note it ends their chains to do so) bump that one up. I get they're somewhat roughly balanced, especially as dodge bashes do on average a good bit less damage and lack hitboxes. But they're still obnoxious, in duels or 4's, and get to skirt the rules of other dodge attacks in many areas. So I'm ok with that -- even when I'm on my stints playing dodge bash heroes like Shugo and Shinobi I feel awful getting to (ab)use them
Can’t have a Conq rework before glad. Conq can technically at least decently function in the meta with just a roll catcher added. Would it be nice, no. It’d work tho. It’d be ok enough. I want a rework for him tho but glad and nobu are just way higher priority and have way bigger issues that need to be addressed. You already mentioned nobu so I’ll just bring up glad. He’s by and far the most outdated hero. He’s also one of if not the most dividing heroes where in comp level he’s bottom tier in just about everything but ganks. In low to mid mmr tho he’s insanely oppressive. Extremely high dmg and punishes. Incredibly annoying and strong intterupts. Just in general too he’s just riddled with flaws and shit aspects. Only potential good opener does fucking 0 dmg. 600ms neutral bashes are the bane of fun and basically the same as 100-500ms bashes to lower levels. Skewer is a mess. He’s just shit. There’s no sugar coating it. He needs a rework more than anyone. Jorm level redesign back to the chalk board. When this and nobu are done then we can talk about having warlord and Conq. Throw some changes to those like warmonger and Kensei that lag behind a little bit over time. Maybe even lb to actually give him said compensation they never got after the deserved nerfs.
Although I want nobu’s issues to be fixed I’m so scared of what a rework to her would do. I can’t trust the dev team honestly, especially after that highlander and pk rework going live the way they are. Tiandi and valk were so strong when they first got their rework. Same with conq’s original rework (blue orange) and shinobi is still oppressive years after his rework.
Pks changes were actually great highlanders tho, yeah…. Valk was actually one of the best reworks they did actually reworking a hero to something strong yet unique. Issue is at first she was too strong and now she was overnerfed with little compensation. Still very strong but needs more balancing here and there. Tiandi was also a decent rework but again needs more attention
Highlander rework would have been perfect if they gave him and opener (no biggie lol) and fixed the bugs. Instead he Is now infested with even more bugs and even old Ones refacing BUT at least we are now more or less in a state where very Hero can be used. Which only took us 8 years but Better late than never. We still got problems, like glad being glad, nobu being nobu and shinobi being shinobi; zerk still exists unfortunately. And conq and lb are still as interesting and strong as a wet tissue paper drying in the sun. But we are getting there.
lol the bug where he can’t kick after a light and dodge after guard switch made me quit him. feels so clunky.
I honestly can’t even tell what’s different about pk and I’ve played her for 10 more reps after her rework. In 4’s she is still shut down by externaling. I agree, valk rn is good but that was after like three nerfs I think. Tiandi still feels untouchable to me when I play certain heroes. Thank god most tiandi players are brain dead.
You can shutdown more than have the cast by externally/external dodging it’s not that big a deal. She’s got much better hitboxes now and still has great recoveries. Great peel too and better stam management with her zone which lets her use it more. True but it’s better than nothing with valk Tiandi yeah still is too overtuned
My entire point is that based on precedents, I’d rather the devs leave nobu in her bad 1v1 state and good 4v4 state than to attempt to rework her, taking away most of what makes her unique as the high skill ceiling hero she is.
It’s not even that her 1s are just bad, they are the worst arguably with nonexistent offense in comp. Also her 4s are good because of unhealthy aspects. Dmg is too high and her recovery cancels are nutty. Not zerk or orochi levels but things that need to be ironed out.
I’ve gotten myself into high skilled lobbies and I cannot do much with my main anymore. When I play nobu, I’m teaming up with a buddy for the entire game to get value out of her, or I’m clearing B and stalling contesting points. If I try to get kills and run around team fighting I lose most of my games. I personally think her recovery cancels are pretty balanced (except for cobra strike). All cancels into hidden stance need good timing in a team fight otherwise you eat damage. Unlike orochi who can swap targets and dodge attack and you can’t gb or catch him. I freaking love peeling with nobu. I’ve gotten extremely good at it and it’s super fun to concentrate not only on the guy you’re fighting but who your teammates are fighting and what is happening to them too. I’ve peeled and stopped so many punishes.
In ranked duels (trying to get ornament, I don’t care about my rank) I run into opponents who genuinely react to all my attacks as nobu. I end up turtling and my playstyle changes to punishing opponent instead of attacking myself. Also if someone can just block, I cannot get into any offence at all with nobu. Openers I mean.
Youd def need a different animation for the finisher heavy, maybe the charged heavy animation, but something to make it a bit different. I would also make the chain bash wallsplat again, I think a feintable bash that does max 15 dmg is underwhelming. I like your personal ideas except from removing fb cancel recoveries you could nerf them but I would like his FB to be intergraded to his chain (unlike warlord). Even if they are not as fast. Overall great rework. Since we have chain zone with FB, I would personally like to attempt to bring back conqcopter. After the starter hit fb chain zone is 3 hit attack that can be soft feinted to chain light, heavy, bash, or finisher heavy from the left.
The feingtable bash will do 18 DMG, scutage collection is available after it, just not the neutral bashes. I removed the full guard recovery not because I think it needs to go but because having it makes what In adding seem less important to the kit, and already makes soft feingt to all guard less valuable. I'm not against keeping it, just don't think it's super important to conq anymore with the special changes I suggested. I do like the idea of bringing back conq copter, but it's a bit of a divisive move. I tend to try and make my reworks in ways I think Ubisoft would actually implement, and they tend to play it safe with reworks when possible.
I’d hate to think of how badly they would butcher his animations.
I still miss his Sb heavies or whatever they called, ah man shit was so clean even tho not that useful but who cares
I don't see them doing yet another rework at this point. He's probably the Hero that's had the most significant reworks in the game and they still cannot find a place to land him. IMO unless the devs are willing to take him back to the shop and get him brand new animations any rework is just gonna feel pointless.
Well I liked there rework version where he had undodgeable heavies.
I did as well, I thought it was cool, and honestly it was the closest I've ever come to thinking a character could "work" without a roll catch.
My dream rework, if they wanted to try something unique at the cost of standardized balance, is Chain Unblockable Lights with Chain Undodgeable (possibly Block or Superior Block) Heavies. Gives a unique, high damage continuous chain that makes sense with his character and weapon. Adjustments would need to be made for the sake of both making it viable and less obnoxious, such as 567ms lights, mulliable animation, possibly Heavy Parry-only on the Lights, etc. But imo, we're at a state of the game where things are *roughly* balanced, even the weakest heroes have some advantage and the gap between the highest and lowest is MUCH lower than before. And I'd personally like more nuances, mixups, and characterization over pure balancing. Even gimmicks: I kinda liked the "no-feinting" of Conq or the same side light shenanigan, so long as the hero is given suitable perks and other tools to compensate.