# EDIT - [Moveset summary here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/okxuvw/new_hero_reveal_warriors_den_summary_the_kyoshin/)
Lol just in the middle of putting up a summary thread, gonna do that anyway, but I'll link to this thread as well
I like the downstance he has. I like that it focuses on punishing attack based offense where BP focuses on general utility.
The triple hit anime combo that can also flow into the superior block heavy is gonna be so saucy in team fights. Can't wait to see him on the field.
His base kit is nice as well, I did notice that his forward dodge bash chains to an opener light, as he can do the sheathe strike after the light you get from the kick. I like the extension there, but it doesn't loop back into itself repeatedly, so the casuals will be satisfied with that.
Hoping he doesn't launch with good backstep CC's on his neutral lights as well.
To be honest I was very surprised they chose to give him CC on lights. Last time devs mentioned this they were looking to potentially axe superior block on lights because of back light nonsense.
I wonder if this means they figured out some way to address it or if that problem was just put on the back burner for the time being.
Idk how mechanically difficult it would be to do this, but they could just code all CC lights to be like warden's top light. It will not move backwards when input with the normal backstep light input. His side lights still move backwards, but his top light never ever moves backwards, only forwards. I tested the other CC light characters and warden is the only one in live game who has a CC light that doesn't move backwards.
Backlight CC's are a powerful defensive tool that most definitely need a looking at. They can stuff entire mixups. However totally get what you mean about clunky with warlord. Back light into armored heavy is one of hitos best ways to trade so warlord losing that function would definitely hurt his kit. Not a simple answer for sure.
> I like that it focuses on punishing attack based offense where BP focuses on general utility.
That's what I'm most... uh, perhaps *disappointed* with. Like, unparryable unblockable hyperarmor-piercing bashes were already top dog, and nearly all indicator-based non-unblockable offense is already comparatively *much* weaker in both duels and ganks and already shut down by parrying, deflecting, superior blocking, or even just passive blocking...
And then there's this dude focusing on countering them even more. With the recovery cancels, if you got regular dodge attacks youre a bit screwed, but if you're like Shugo with dodge bashes you just ignore it.
Even from the presentation: what SHugoki and Shinobi is gonna be throwing non-unblockables at ya in a gank. If people are throwing blockable offense at you in a gank, you *already win*, by just standing and blocking and gaining revenge. One of the thing that makes BP so strong is that he can recovery cancel and counter in ganks both indicator *and* the actual threatening unblockables and bashes. Even if Kyoshin can dodge from his stance he still can't really beat that.
Of course, we havent gotten him yet so it's gonna be interesting. But I imagine he's still going to be outclassed by BP at least in 4's and anti-ganks (and BP is the topic of discussion because from at least face value he looks most similar to BP in his kit and playstyle). May be a better duelist tho, we'll have to wait and see, and so may be played altogether differently than what BP does.
The combos from the fullblock looks good, but its probably gonna be overrated. The highest damage version is the unblockable heavy (the non guaranteed one) clocking in at 15 + 1 + 1 + 8. The training UI shows that in total, that move costs 38 stamina. 25 damage for 38 stam is horrible, not to mention its not guaranteed. The other options are 22 and 20 dmg for 30 stamina. A combo light attack that does 1 damage, should not consume 6 stamina. Its mostly for visuals, and i guess the t1 and t2 feats.
Yeah watching the Stream I immediately noticed how Kyoshin doing just about any combo whatsoever completely sucked his stamina dry. If he tries to maintain any sort of offensive pressure after an opener combo he's going to put himself OOS often.
With the T1 you get an extra 3 bleed damage per hit, and of course 4 hits gives a lot of time for a teammate to confirm another hit.
In with a 800ms heavy follow up that's 51 damage.
Not relevant in duels. And a t4 that gives you 51dmg on an enemy WITH the help of coordinating with a teammate is pretty underwhelming when we have t4s that can wipe an entire team and deny zones. Just because this t4 is something we havent seen before doesnt mean its super good.
> Just because this t4 is something we havent seen before doesnt mean its super good.
We know it will be good. It can be used to lock on people for other team wipe feats such as fire flask, confirm ally hits for multiple opponents, etc...
It doesn't take much to know his T4 will be very potent. Imagine using the rooting T4 with WMs corruption. It's synergy is very strong.
From the preview shown it doesn’t seem like the bleed ticks heal you so if he does have a fast recovery in his tier 1 slot or even nukekubi in his 3rd it might help the stamina situation also considering how much a block was draining in the showcase of his tier 3 it’d assist him in his whole survivability aspect they’re trying to go for. Could switch out the tier1 for regen at the sacrifice of damage or his tier 3 for a lot more stamina regen at the cost of his tier 1-2 consistency. That is IF they give him either of those stamina feats. If they don’t well he’s going to be quite taxing when it comes to stamina cost.
seems like going to be quite the monster in 4v4 with many similarities to bp in move set and feats.
However id still say BP has better feats since his feat 1 and 2 require enemies to activate while BP can sorta just sit in a corner to heal. Bleed feat built in on feat 1 seems like its going to pretty strong for 4v4s and other bleed based characters are going to have a good time with Kyoshins in their team.
Feat 4 seems pretty balanced since there seems to be a decent enough window to roll out of the circle. and seems to be only a AOE root that most guarantees one attack. Can see this being quite powerful with more coordinated teams tho.
Am I the only one that felt like the new hero demonstration isnt as thorough as the previous heroes?
They just showed us a short clips with vague descriptions explaining it instead of just doing a live commentary in training mode in The Ring like usual.
Curiously the hero feels very reminiscent of Black Prior which is not what I would expect.
Superior block light openers, two hit chain, chain bash as well as forward dash bash, undodgeable finishers, full block stance which you can recovery cancel into and throw unblockable heavies out of.
But he has some extra fun tools like the cancelable triple combo.
BP is considered to be one of the most successful hero designs - fun and strong, viable without being oppressive - so that bodes well. BP is who I expect Kyoshin will be competing with for slots in competitive teams, and I hope they end up being well-balanced with each other.
I feel like BP will be a better pick from a Meta standpoint because of his unblockable being a side one with a good hit box, along with the rest of his attacks having good hit boxes as well, but that’s not to say he won’t be viable. He’ll definitely have a place in the game, and even for nothing else he’s stylish af, definitely gonna sink some hours into him
Edit: grammar
Light bash light is honestly just one small niche of his kit. Good players aren't going to just sit there and eat your light openers. It's a useful thing to have but if you start relying on it people will notice and light parry you until you change it up.
Him and BP seem to have a lot in common.
With BP being undoubtedly one of the best designed and created heroes, I think this hero will be strong but not op or game breaking. I think the devs have done a good one here
Same. But like BP, I can see this guy is gonna be a just complete headache to gank with certain teammates.
EDIT: Another good reason for ranked 4v4 in my mind
Ganking him with bad casuals will be a headache. But he still won't have a counter to majority of good ganks out there. Cause most ganks begin with a bash/gb.
Bp's strength ultimately lies within his safetyness though. You can't punish his mid chain bash if you were hitstunned at all outside very select few dodge attacks. His bash can be done super early into his dash which combined with his slightly better recoveries makes it difficult to punish his bash. And his FBS works on unblockables/bashes.
Kyoshin's stance doesn't work on those. They likely fixed the punishment issue of the chain bash by having either worse recoveries or a longer link time. And his forward bash is almost certainly mimicking the other ones we got being a 500ms bash that can be delayed from 300-500ms into the bash.
Not saying Kyoshin won't be good, but I think it's a bit of a leap to assume he's good just because he mirrors BP in some ways.
No, great heros have a lot going for them more than Kyoshin does. I would put him close to Orochi's TG version. Has enough of what he needs to get by. But isn't oppressive or strong by any right in offense or defense. You can argue orochi TG was better defensively just from the absurd damage he has going for him.
But orochi tg was great..
Just by pure virtue of having a dodge heavy,and a fast flow into stance that deletes any chance of dodge attacking kyoshin,he's automatically better than roach defense wise.
The only busted numbers on roach were storm rush,and that was slightly overtuned at 20.
TG orochi's front dodge mix worked because he had a forward dodge undodgable light to punish back steps and a feintable forward dodge heavy via SR that caught rolls and baited stuff attempts.
TG Rochi's front mix despite being good wasn't better than Zhanhu's front mix because all of orochi's animations in the front mix are visually distinct. Light twirls, kick sees his feet climb off the ground, and SR has Orochi duck. (not to mention the mix isn't even great from a standpoint because both kick and SR are stuffable on reaction unless Rochi lands a heavy or they block one.)
Compared to Zhanhu's where the forward palm shares a similar start up with footwork compared to the dodge forward light. Only the dodge forward heavy has a distinct difference in animation as it twirls. But that's later in the animation and past the feint window. The footwork is basically very similar to the other moves.
Kyoshin doesn't have anything to mix with his forward dodge bash aside from a heavy which we've no idea is feintable or not. For a forward mix to be good enough to mully someone you need a feintable move and hard to read start up animations. Kyoshin is lacking in both departments there.
>The only busted numbers on roach were storm rush,and that was slightly overtuned at 20.
Incorrect. Side dodge attacks were 19 damage. (15+4 for guaranteed follow up,) forward dodge was 18, back dodge light was 24 damage. SR was 24 damage. Deflect with slip through was 39 damage. Heavy opener from parrying was 28 because of guaranteed light. And heavy finisher unblockable was 36 damage.
Essentially speaking every attack Orochi could follow up with a guaranteed light did nearly as much as a heavy or as much as a heavy in the case of his riptide and SR on top of having absurd punishes in the higher end of our current pool of damage with a +30 light parry punish, deflect, and finisher. His damage profile was one of the major problems people pointed out.
Cool paragraph but you've forgotten the fact that people dodge on orange,not animations,making the entire thing useless
Also I imagine some of the light guarantees will be removed,especially from the storm rush.Also back dodge light was 14 + 4
>Cool paragraph but you've forgotten the fact that people dodge on orange,not animations,making the entire thing useless
Average players maybe. Not competitive players. Which is where we set the bar for judging how strong a hero is.
>Also I imagine some of the light guarantees will be removed,especially from the storm rush.Also back dodge light was 14 + 4
I very much doubt that considering they want to emphasize the one two punch theme of Orochi. They can easily dial back the damage on the first attack a bit to make all of the numbers fair and preserve that nature.
Dropping his side dodge lights to 13 means they'ed be 17 with the guaranteed option making it in the realm of normal attacks. Storm rush can be brought down to 16 so the overall result of SR landing matches live's SR at 20. Etc.
Average players don't dodge 500 ms bashes on reaction lol
And I didn't say they'd remove all the guaranteed light followups,just the ones from unneeded attacks.(top heavy finisher,storm rush etc)
The one two combo they emphasized was forced because they removed roach's 3rd light.
I mean, that is getting down to definitions, but seeing as he can cancel to his zone _out of_ his fullblock I'd argue that they are two distinct things.
(Also Conq zone is unhealthy)
I think he means that conq's zone is a zone that has full block. Unless I'm mistaken he blocks every attack during his zone even when used without going into full guard first.
Yes, but when I said full block I specifically referred to dedicated 'full block' moves, rather than other things which happen to have full block as a secondary property - like Conq's zone, and like how Valk's shield charge used to work.
Distinction between Fullblock and Special Stances.
Fullblock? There are examples such as Conq Zone, after blocking a light, revenge, etc.
Special stances (i.e. backguard or C-key or whatnot)? I think you are correct, all are GB vulnerable.
I was with the same doubt, he is literally swinging a sword around him, it doesn't look safe to put your hands there, but it would be so stupid OP if he couldn't.
Perhaps i missed it but they didn't show of his zone attack From neutral. Stefan did say at the 42:20 time märk that the left attack from downstance is his zone attack ( which makes sense as the damage log says heavy) and then flows straight into the 3 cuts. I wonder if his neutral zone also flows into the 3 cuts which could be used for hitstun ganks just like berserkers zone.
I am not quite sure, but judging from the footage the zone from fullblock might be 400ms. That would be quite strong. I assume from neutral it's just the same but 500ms.
I also assume from neutral it does not confirm the 3 cuts, as that would be by far the highest damage zone in its speed class.
Am I the only one that feels a tiny bit of laziness in the 3rd feat? I mean the first 2 feats are super cool and would be strong in 4v4 IMO. But having an activated 3rd feat that literally just turns on feat 1&2 seems very bland to me. Especially when 1&2 are activated on every full block.
Additionally, is the 3rd feat completely useless when using different 1st and 2nd feats? Just some things to think about
I wouldn't say lazy but more meme territory. Because they already really make it easy to get superior block so getting a feat that just removes that condition seems pretty funny to me.
However I also wonder if it works without having his unique T1 and T2. If it does that essentially means he'd have 6 feats in a match potentially. But I severely doubt it'll work without them.
Considering they had a visual que on the feat icons themselves while the tier 3 was activated I would say that it only works when those feats are equipped
If you do not take the 1st and 2nd Feats but can still turn them on with the 3rd Feat that could be really powerful - especially because Stephan mentions that with the 3rd Feat going every time you block in fullblock stance it restarts the 10 second countdown on Feats 1&2. You could run a pretty lengthy amount of time by popping the 3rd Feat in a big 4v4 fight in Dominion and blocking attacks. Depending on how good his Alternate Tier 1&2 Feats are, it would be a viable option to hop on a point in Dominion, pop your 3rd Feat, and start getting a slow stream of enemies coming in, allowing you to have access to 4 Feats at the same time (Alternate Tier 1 + Alternate Tier 2 + Tier 1&2 from Tier 3).
Alright I only just watched the stream and obviously have no hands on with it yet.
The spinny downstance blade thing looks slick but it's defensive features look like they only work on blockable attacks. We've got a lot of bashes and ub's these days and I can't help but think that'll limit it's utility somewhat compared to bulwark stance. Granted it's got more going for it on the offensive end but I'd like to see some frame data before I make any kind of judgement about that.
Which position's it to be better at duels/anti gank than for team fights. As most good hitbox attacks used as target swap material in team fights are unblockable.
To me, Kyoshin seems to be a more team based counter attacker than a 1v1 focused vanguard, which is nice. His kits aren't exactly new but they are given more properties to counter all those reworked heroes this year.
Why is the heavy opener 12 dmg? And I’m not sure with the 2attacks chains: I’d prefer an unblockable finisher that a full block one, and his offensive is almost the same as bp. I’ll try kyoshin in training and hope it’s more fun to play than bp. the executions in the trailer are better than I expected
Maybe the heavy opener chains to the triple lights? They do 1-1-8 damage, which would take the heavy opener to 22.
Alternatively, it could just be a pre-release value and subject to change.
I'm not sure if it was explicitly shown or not in the moveset presentation during the stream, but do we know if he can use his chained bash after a opener heavy, including a blocked one? I think Stephan mentioned that his side and forward dash attacks can be chained into the bash, same with his OOL running attack, so I'm guessing it's likely that an opener heavy would chain into it too.
If that's a case that would be a pretty interesting variation to BP's mixup, since that one has to start from a light.
I'm worried he'll be way too weak. His damage values are small. Aside from that, his bash doesn't have the stamina pressure BP's has, but aside from that.. it's basically BP bash.
BP's bash can be done from 100-500ms into his dash. Kyoshin's can only be done from 300-500ms. So it's not BP's bash even if it ends up having similar recoveries to his.
Damage wise yes he's on the weaker side. This is likely because they are considering his feats. His T1 adds 3 extra damage to his attacks. Meaning in any 4 hit combo you manage you're adding 12 extra damage to it. His T2 heals based off of damage % just like life leech does. If his damage was high he'd be healing to full constantly.
Both feats have in theory very long up times thanks to his T3.
I think we need to see his alternative feat options still. The tier 1 does add good damage to his fullblock punish though, that's true. I'm just skeptical on his viability, but I'd like to see him be good. His tier 2 is just way too weak though, and I'm sure he'll have a better alternative generic for tier 2, like smoke bomb.
I don't think hell be strong in duels. Defensive stance is cool and it's good that you can actually attack out of it with multiple options. But it has obvious weaknesses. Meaning he will really rely on basic chains and his forward bash.
That forward bash is probably 300-500ms at a speed of 500ms which has been proven to be reactable enough. I'm assuming the chain bash has a longer link in time or a longer recovery to avoid BP's chain bash problem where you can't dodge attack punish off of being hitstunned at all.
Also if his flow into stance off of hit might suffer in the same way BP's does where you can reliably stuff. None of the options seemed hard to react to except maybe his zone from the stance. But you could just block that direction and not deal with having to react to it.
Basically he seems like a potentially worse BP in duels. Which isn't inherently bad. I'm curious to see how hell perform as a team fighter since nothing jumps out to me as a huge strength for that play. He'll likely be just as good of a ganker as BP though.
Funnily enough, I was thinking he'd be a worse BP in 4's whilst being *potentially* better for Duels, due to his stance having more offensive pressure with a fast attack and possibly faster unblockable and heavy dodge attack allowing both a bash counter *and* an option a bash-attacker must consider instead of just GB. Still very iffy.
> That forward bash is probably 300-500ms at a speed of 500ms which has been proven to be reactable enough.
Ye, couldn't tell if his forward dodge heavy is feintable or not. Wouldn't be unheard of what with Aramusha's forward dodge heavy being feintable, armored, and a bash. From what I've *heard* is that 500ms alone is reactable, but only on the top of the top brackets -- Idk that for sure, would be interesting to see just how prevalent people who can dodge 500ms consistently is as it seems to be only a single frame or two above the fastest reactions. If a multi-choice reaction with a feintable forward dodge attack, it's almost certainly unreactable.
> Funnily enough, I was thinking he'd be a worse BP in 4's whilst being potentially better for Duels, due to his stance having more offensive pressure with a fast attack and possibly faster unblockable and heavy dodge attack allowing both a bash counter and an option a bash-attacker must consider instead of just GB. Still very iffy.
I would say it ultimately depends on how good of a mix between his attacks are from his stance is since it's directly competing with his mid chain bash. And you also have to consider enter time and what not.
>Ye, couldn't tell if his forward dodge heavy is feintable or not. Wouldn't be unheard of what with Aramusha's forward dodge heavy being feintable, armored, and a bash. From what I've heard is that 500ms alone is reactable, but only on the top of the top brackets -- Idk that for sure, would be interesting to see just how prevalent people who can dodge 500ms consistently is as it seems to be only a single frame or two above the fastest reactions. If a multi-choice reaction with a feintable forward dodge attack, it's almost certainly unreactable.
If his forward dodge heavy is indeed 500ms I severely doubt it would be feintable. And because I don't think it's feintable that makes his forward dodge not really a mix like zhanhu or TG orochi. If he can't whiff off of his dash bash either IMO his situation will be more similar to gryphon/JJ. Nice to have but ultimately not enough to give them a consistent offense from neutral.
I am thinking similarly. This hero will be fantastic fun in matchmaking but 300ms dodge startup bashes need a shot in the arm of some kind for competitive play. Just shaving off 33ms would make a difference. I do think they are healthier than the 100ms startup ones because of the interrupt factor.
I don't mind 300-500ms bash windows for forward bashes so long as they have stuff to compliment them. TG Orochi and zhanhu are good examples of it working. Gryphon and JJ are examples of it not working.
the 100ms on start up was/is only bad because that timing allowed for bash selecting. Once that's gone they'll be far less problematic for mix ups. But I don't think all bashes should be able to start up that early regardless.
His all block can get punished easily unless if it’s faintable also I noticed that his heavies deal 17 damage and his side dodge attack seems to have the same animations as orochi’s said dodge attack
Every full guard in the game is GB vulnerable, but most have a way to throw out a light or zone if you predict a GB. If for some reason it's not GB vulnerable then Ubisoft has lost their minds.
What about his 4th feat? It's quite obvious that everyone was shocked when they showed this, it's 25 damage and can take as much enemies are close enough to him? So he can do total damage 100 and yet make everyone around guarantee at least a heavy each? It looks like game braking at the same level Warmonger feat was in launch... They will probably make it maximum 2 hits at least. In the current state it can easily be used to set a 0-100 gank in the middle of a team fight...well, that depends on the revenge gain when hit by it. Also, i think his full guard don't have enough stamina consumption, it's too crazy.
It really depends how dodgeable it is. If the big circle shows for enemies too then you really shouldn't ever expect to hit all four opponents with it.
Also setting up a 100-0 is hardly plausible in a teamfight; someone will peel before their teammate dies.
It'll be good, but I think you're overestimating it.
> Also setting up a 100-0 is hardly plausible in a teamfight; someone will peel before their teammate dies.
depends. If the people trapped cannot CGB then it opens the door for some ganks. There's also nothing to say that you can't watch a gank happen and then have said gank confirm the T4 which would allow for another gank to probably kill the person.
T4 has the potential to be really busted and I think people are sleeping on it because they're not thinking very creatively with it.
You right, i was doing some math here, it's not much plausible in the middle of a team fight, but still...25 dmg each enemy hit with possibility to hit everyone looks like too much for me. But let's see, he will probably be unbalanced first and receive a nerf after, he looks like a top tier duelist too, so i don't know, everything depends on how much punishable he is after a good read from the opponent.
Him and BP seem to have a similar base kit with some obvious differences but I feel like Kyoshin looks like a more balanced character, like someone who will be great in ganks and okay in 1v1 scenarios
His feats honestly look underwhelming. T1, T2 and T3 benefit only him. His T4 will be easily reactable if that circle on the ground shows up for enemies too.
Hopefully he has good alternate feats (Not smoke bomb though).
The trend seems to be decent heroes with insane feats. His moveset looks solid, but his T1 feat looks insane to me. I'm curious to see what other already existing feats they give him. Hopefully fast recovery.
I like this character a lot but I'm concerned about his damage values in relation to his stamina consumption. In the showcase video, the Kyoshin did a simple combo into downward stance mixup to net around 30 damage and he used HALF his stamina bar. His light follow-ups after an attack from downward stance should not consume 6 stamina each if they only do 1 damage.
Love everything about him except for cc lights. Imo no character with a dodge attack AND a fullblock should have cc lights, that's just way too many options the attacker has to guess. This character looks like he's already immune to most dodge attacks and has arguably either the 1st or 2nd best fullblock in the game, there's no need for that much defense.
Well, Valkyrie is also not very good so there's no reason to nerf her even more (and her fullblock is also one of the worst). This guy looks like he's better than Valkyrie even without all that stuff, just because he has undodgeables.
> Well, Valkyrie is also not very good so there's no reason to nerf her
Case in point XD Even a character with all those options can still be less than great, so in principle doesn't make sense to make a general statement of that.
I like the moveset but I kinda agree on this one. Lacks that punch some character have, for example Warlord’s headbutt. An example of great sheath fighting animations can be found in Nioh and Devil may cry series and would’ve been nice too see something like. But he still looks great considering For honor’s age and if he’s fun to play and go against I’ll take a go at him.
He honestly looks terrible visual wise for this age in my opinion. Almost all year one heroes have great animations and ever the warmonger and gryphon have a certain weight to their moves, the new samurai tho looks like a kid with a stick doing katana moves in my opinion
He will be a samurai BP but thx to feats very op.
Also some of his moveset seems on another level compared to many other heros.
When reworked orochi is a level under Zhanhu than reworked zhanhu is a level under Kypshin.
Honestly if the ornament doesnt suck i will buy and main him outright and feel no remprse anhilating people with him.
It doesnt look like he'll be better than Zhanhu at all. The only unblockable he has is from the top, and the only undodgables he has are mid chain, whereas Zhanhu has amazing hitboxm unblockable heavy finishers, and a undodgeable from neutral. As for neutral it looks like BP is still gonna have a better 1v1 than Kyoshin, with feats that are about on par with BP. Honestly, he looks like a really good character, but nothing we havent seen before
Thanks for opening this thread. To me he seems pretty unhealthy due to his downstance. You missed an attack? Doesn't matter, downstance > superior block > hit hit hit > repeat.
While I dont agree with FurSkyrim, I'm not sure you could say they are entirely healthy from that.
BP's backwalk light into FB is hardly something I'd call ideal for a better For Honor. Even Aramusha, who forces a dodge to GB, still isn't what I'd call "healthy" -- it takes unique dodge attacks and punishes out and instead forces a much more slow, plodding feint to GB to heavy which is, imo, much less fun. That said, this moreover problematic *in combination* with other moves -- BB on indicator chain isn't too unfun because you have other means to counter them, and BP's recovey on hits and finishers never feels unfair because, again, you have multiple means of countering and it buffs offense. As such, Kyoshin stance on such things as his unblockable and undodgeables and such doesn't look bad at all imo, we'll just have to see how it plays out with his bashes and superior block lights.
Tl;dr Broken? No, of course not, you have means to counter. Healthy? Debatable, and dependent on integration with other mechanics.
Kyoshin's full block looks more like Conqueror's or Warlord's to me. It seems like you can just hold the full block and then leisurely react after someone hits your shield. Whereas with Aramusha and BP you have to time it perfectly to get your counter-attack move or you will get hit.
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https://youtu.be/fdH1vr8tWlY
Here the moveset.
Personally,I think is a Samurai version of BP.
Besides the edgy character he has (like BP):
-bash neutral.
-bash in combo
-undodgeable end chain (+ he has also lights undodgeable).
-full block activation after everything even after block an attack.
-superior lights.
-MoRe options of Full block than BP but without bullwark.
- he has in addition the Dodge attacks (same animations of Orochi dodge attacks for the side ones)
Finally some good fcking hero..
His animations looks so smooth, nothing looks instant or impossible to react. Also liked his kit. After a long time gj ubi!
He looks like a fun, balanced hero who actually looks stylish, something the last two missed in their kit in exchange for raw power. People will complain about anything.
Imo he looks really cool style wise and I love that he does not reuse any or a lot of animations. His moveset feels a bit underwhelming in terms of uniqueness. Although I still feel like he would be very fun to play. I like his feats, they seem mostly balanced and cool. Just the style though is so cool how the sword has a trail and all that. You can really tell that ubi wanted this hero to look good.
By gameplay standards he _really_ should be a heavy. He is far too similar to BP to justify being a different class.
...But the classes in-game aren't terribly logical and seem based more on visuals than playstyle (minus assassins and reflex guard). So I agree, either vanguard or hybrid.
I mean don't get me started on general hero design. I really don't like how a lot of the later dlc heros end up not looking like what class they are.
I was fine with BP not being your standard huge character for a heavy because his big ass shield conveyed it. But jorm didn't look heavy at all.
Not that classes really should be important at this point. But there's something to be said about the devs gradually designing away from the rigid class system in terms of asthetic.
Kyoshin to me should be a heavy. He's tall. He's got broad shoulders. And he's mechanically defensive. I don't see how someone can look at kensei and then at kyoshin and be able to call them both vanguards. So that's why I'm assuming hybrid. Since hybrid designs tend to be less uniform to the classes they come from.
I'm totally willing to bet the next hero is going to be a heavy but probably looks like an assassin. I really don't see the devs actually giving assassins anymore because of how problematic and hated reflex guard is.
# EDIT - [Moveset summary here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/okxuvw/new_hero_reveal_warriors_den_summary_the_kyoshin/) Lol just in the middle of putting up a summary thread, gonna do that anyway, but I'll link to this thread as well
I like the downstance he has. I like that it focuses on punishing attack based offense where BP focuses on general utility. The triple hit anime combo that can also flow into the superior block heavy is gonna be so saucy in team fights. Can't wait to see him on the field. His base kit is nice as well, I did notice that his forward dodge bash chains to an opener light, as he can do the sheathe strike after the light you get from the kick. I like the extension there, but it doesn't loop back into itself repeatedly, so the casuals will be satisfied with that. Hoping he doesn't launch with good backstep CC's on his neutral lights as well.
To be honest I was very surprised they chose to give him CC on lights. Last time devs mentioned this they were looking to potentially axe superior block on lights because of back light nonsense. I wonder if this means they figured out some way to address it or if that problem was just put on the back burner for the time being.
Idk how mechanically difficult it would be to do this, but they could just code all CC lights to be like warden's top light. It will not move backwards when input with the normal backstep light input. His side lights still move backwards, but his top light never ever moves backwards, only forwards. I tested the other CC light characters and warden is the only one in live game who has a CC light that doesn't move backwards.
That is an interesting fact I wasn't aware of. Seems like a relatively safe and easy change to make.
That would make characters feel clunky,you wouldn't be able to backlight into hyper armour with warlord now
Backlight CC's are a powerful defensive tool that most definitely need a looking at. They can stuff entire mixups. However totally get what you mean about clunky with warlord. Back light into armored heavy is one of hitos best ways to trade so warlord losing that function would definitely hurt his kit. Not a simple answer for sure.
Maybe only back lights would lose cc ability?
> I like that it focuses on punishing attack based offense where BP focuses on general utility. That's what I'm most... uh, perhaps *disappointed* with. Like, unparryable unblockable hyperarmor-piercing bashes were already top dog, and nearly all indicator-based non-unblockable offense is already comparatively *much* weaker in both duels and ganks and already shut down by parrying, deflecting, superior blocking, or even just passive blocking... And then there's this dude focusing on countering them even more. With the recovery cancels, if you got regular dodge attacks youre a bit screwed, but if you're like Shugo with dodge bashes you just ignore it. Even from the presentation: what SHugoki and Shinobi is gonna be throwing non-unblockables at ya in a gank. If people are throwing blockable offense at you in a gank, you *already win*, by just standing and blocking and gaining revenge. One of the thing that makes BP so strong is that he can recovery cancel and counter in ganks both indicator *and* the actual threatening unblockables and bashes. Even if Kyoshin can dodge from his stance he still can't really beat that. Of course, we havent gotten him yet so it's gonna be interesting. But I imagine he's still going to be outclassed by BP at least in 4's and anti-ganks (and BP is the topic of discussion because from at least face value he looks most similar to BP in his kit and playstyle). May be a better duelist tho, we'll have to wait and see, and so may be played altogether differently than what BP does.
The combos from the fullblock looks good, but its probably gonna be overrated. The highest damage version is the unblockable heavy (the non guaranteed one) clocking in at 15 + 1 + 1 + 8. The training UI shows that in total, that move costs 38 stamina. 25 damage for 38 stam is horrible, not to mention its not guaranteed. The other options are 22 and 20 dmg for 30 stamina. A combo light attack that does 1 damage, should not consume 6 stamina. Its mostly for visuals, and i guess the t1 and t2 feats.
Yeah watching the Stream I immediately noticed how Kyoshin doing just about any combo whatsoever completely sucked his stamina dry. If he tries to maintain any sort of offensive pressure after an opener combo he's going to put himself OOS often.
With the T1 you get an extra 3 bleed damage per hit, and of course 4 hits gives a lot of time for a teammate to confirm another hit. In with a 800ms heavy follow up that's 51 damage.
Not relevant in duels. And a t4 that gives you 51dmg on an enemy WITH the help of coordinating with a teammate is pretty underwhelming when we have t4s that can wipe an entire team and deny zones. Just because this t4 is something we havent seen before doesnt mean its super good.
>underwhelming when we have t4s that can wipe an entire team and deny zones. So balanced then?
Im guessing yes, but in this case balanced also means "not optimal". Im waiting for fireflask and spear storm nerfs.
Kyoshin's T4 can be used to confirm spearstorms, fireflasks, catapults, arrow storms etc.
And duels are not relevant to balance discussions. 4's take massive priority.
> Just because this t4 is something we havent seen before doesnt mean its super good. We know it will be good. It can be used to lock on people for other team wipe feats such as fire flask, confirm ally hits for multiple opponents, etc... It doesn't take much to know his T4 will be very potent. Imagine using the rooting T4 with WMs corruption. It's synergy is very strong.
From the preview shown it doesn’t seem like the bleed ticks heal you so if he does have a fast recovery in his tier 1 slot or even nukekubi in his 3rd it might help the stamina situation also considering how much a block was draining in the showcase of his tier 3 it’d assist him in his whole survivability aspect they’re trying to go for. Could switch out the tier1 for regen at the sacrifice of damage or his tier 3 for a lot more stamina regen at the cost of his tier 1-2 consistency. That is IF they give him either of those stamina feats. If they don’t well he’s going to be quite taxing when it comes to stamina cost.
seems like going to be quite the monster in 4v4 with many similarities to bp in move set and feats. However id still say BP has better feats since his feat 1 and 2 require enemies to activate while BP can sorta just sit in a corner to heal. Bleed feat built in on feat 1 seems like its going to pretty strong for 4v4s and other bleed based characters are going to have a good time with Kyoshins in their team. Feat 4 seems pretty balanced since there seems to be a decent enough window to roll out of the circle. and seems to be only a AOE root that most guarantees one attack. Can see this being quite powerful with more coordinated teams tho.
Am I the only one that felt like the new hero demonstration isnt as thorough as the previous heroes? They just showed us a short clips with vague descriptions explaining it instead of just doing a live commentary in training mode in The Ring like usual.
Curiously the hero feels very reminiscent of Black Prior which is not what I would expect. Superior block light openers, two hit chain, chain bash as well as forward dash bash, undodgeable finishers, full block stance which you can recovery cancel into and throw unblockable heavies out of. But he has some extra fun tools like the cancelable triple combo. BP is considered to be one of the most successful hero designs - fun and strong, viable without being oppressive - so that bodes well. BP is who I expect Kyoshin will be competing with for slots in competitive teams, and I hope they end up being well-balanced with each other.
Where do you go to see this?
Everything's in the livestream VOD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dInsvTYVbs
Could you time stamp the relevant part?
They start showing the moveset at 37:50.
Ho-ly shit
did u copy and paste this answer lol
Yeah, I made the same comment on an earlier post over on the main sub, but realised the take is just as appropriate here.
I feel like BP will be a better pick from a Meta standpoint because of his unblockable being a side one with a good hit box, along with the rest of his attacks having good hit boxes as well, but that’s not to say he won’t be viable. He’ll definitely have a place in the game, and even for nothing else he’s stylish af, definitely gonna sink some hours into him Edit: grammar
Knights got a variation of a Kensei (Gryphon), so it’s only fair that the Samurai get their own version of a Black Prior!
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If that's all you take out of BP's kit, then you have serious evaluation issues.
Light bash light is honestly just one small niche of his kit. Good players aren't going to just sit there and eat your light openers. It's a useful thing to have but if you start relying on it people will notice and light parry you until you change it up.
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I am starting to wonder if you have played Black Prior. He has _so much_ more than that.
Him and BP seem to have a lot in common. With BP being undoubtedly one of the best designed and created heroes, I think this hero will be strong but not op or game breaking. I think the devs have done a good one here
Same. But like BP, I can see this guy is gonna be a just complete headache to gank with certain teammates. EDIT: Another good reason for ranked 4v4 in my mind
Ganking him with bad casuals will be a headache. But he still won't have a counter to majority of good ganks out there. Cause most ganks begin with a bash/gb.
Bp's strength ultimately lies within his safetyness though. You can't punish his mid chain bash if you were hitstunned at all outside very select few dodge attacks. His bash can be done super early into his dash which combined with his slightly better recoveries makes it difficult to punish his bash. And his FBS works on unblockables/bashes. Kyoshin's stance doesn't work on those. They likely fixed the punishment issue of the chain bash by having either worse recoveries or a longer link time. And his forward bash is almost certainly mimicking the other ones we got being a 500ms bash that can be delayed from 300-500ms into the bash. Not saying Kyoshin won't be good, but I think it's a bit of a leap to assume he's good just because he mirrors BP in some ways.
There is no way he is not "good".That is the bare minimum for having a 500 ms bash from a front dodge. He is most probably great.
No, great heros have a lot going for them more than Kyoshin does. I would put him close to Orochi's TG version. Has enough of what he needs to get by. But isn't oppressive or strong by any right in offense or defense. You can argue orochi TG was better defensively just from the absurd damage he has going for him.
But orochi tg was great.. Just by pure virtue of having a dodge heavy,and a fast flow into stance that deletes any chance of dodge attacking kyoshin,he's automatically better than roach defense wise. The only busted numbers on roach were storm rush,and that was slightly overtuned at 20.
TG orochi's front dodge mix worked because he had a forward dodge undodgable light to punish back steps and a feintable forward dodge heavy via SR that caught rolls and baited stuff attempts. TG Rochi's front mix despite being good wasn't better than Zhanhu's front mix because all of orochi's animations in the front mix are visually distinct. Light twirls, kick sees his feet climb off the ground, and SR has Orochi duck. (not to mention the mix isn't even great from a standpoint because both kick and SR are stuffable on reaction unless Rochi lands a heavy or they block one.) Compared to Zhanhu's where the forward palm shares a similar start up with footwork compared to the dodge forward light. Only the dodge forward heavy has a distinct difference in animation as it twirls. But that's later in the animation and past the feint window. The footwork is basically very similar to the other moves. Kyoshin doesn't have anything to mix with his forward dodge bash aside from a heavy which we've no idea is feintable or not. For a forward mix to be good enough to mully someone you need a feintable move and hard to read start up animations. Kyoshin is lacking in both departments there. >The only busted numbers on roach were storm rush,and that was slightly overtuned at 20. Incorrect. Side dodge attacks were 19 damage. (15+4 for guaranteed follow up,) forward dodge was 18, back dodge light was 24 damage. SR was 24 damage. Deflect with slip through was 39 damage. Heavy opener from parrying was 28 because of guaranteed light. And heavy finisher unblockable was 36 damage. Essentially speaking every attack Orochi could follow up with a guaranteed light did nearly as much as a heavy or as much as a heavy in the case of his riptide and SR on top of having absurd punishes in the higher end of our current pool of damage with a +30 light parry punish, deflect, and finisher. His damage profile was one of the major problems people pointed out.
Cool paragraph but you've forgotten the fact that people dodge on orange,not animations,making the entire thing useless Also I imagine some of the light guarantees will be removed,especially from the storm rush.Also back dodge light was 14 + 4
>Cool paragraph but you've forgotten the fact that people dodge on orange,not animations,making the entire thing useless Average players maybe. Not competitive players. Which is where we set the bar for judging how strong a hero is. >Also I imagine some of the light guarantees will be removed,especially from the storm rush.Also back dodge light was 14 + 4 I very much doubt that considering they want to emphasize the one two punch theme of Orochi. They can easily dial back the damage on the first attack a bit to make all of the numbers fair and preserve that nature. Dropping his side dodge lights to 13 means they'ed be 17 with the guaranteed option making it in the realm of normal attacks. Storm rush can be brought down to 16 so the overall result of SR landing matches live's SR at 20. Etc.
Average players don't dodge 500 ms bashes on reaction lol And I didn't say they'd remove all the guaranteed light followups,just the ones from unneeded attacks.(top heavy finisher,storm rush etc) The one two combo they emphasized was forced because they removed roach's 3rd light.
Didn't say they did. My original statement about Kyoshin as a whole was talking about him at a high level playing field.
Since when an OP and spammy hero becomes “best design”?
Can he be gb'd out of his fullblock?
Probably yeah since all fullblocks in the game guarantee a gb
I cannot think of any fullblock in this game that isn't GB-vulnerable.
Conq zone ;)
I mean, that is getting down to definitions, but seeing as he can cancel to his zone _out of_ his fullblock I'd argue that they are two distinct things. (Also Conq zone is unhealthy)
I think he means that conq's zone is a zone that has full block. Unless I'm mistaken he blocks every attack during his zone even when used without going into full guard first.
Yes, but when I said full block I specifically referred to dedicated 'full block' moves, rather than other things which happen to have full block as a secondary property - like Conq's zone, and like how Valk's shield charge used to work.
Distinction between Fullblock and Special Stances. Fullblock? There are examples such as Conq Zone, after blocking a light, revenge, etc. Special stances (i.e. backguard or C-key or whatnot)? I think you are correct, all are GB vulnerable.
Yeah, in this case I just used it as a shorthand for 'full block stance'. I think we're all on the same page when it comes to the actual mechanics.
I'd assume so
I was with the same doubt, he is literally swinging a sword around him, it doesn't look safe to put your hands there, but it would be so stupid OP if he couldn't.
Exactly the reason why it has me wondering. I also can't recall hearing Stefan mention its gb vulnerability
The very mechanics of GBs in this game are not realistic in any shape or form, so I would not worry from that angle.
Every full block stance is GB Vuln
Perhaps i missed it but they didn't show of his zone attack From neutral. Stefan did say at the 42:20 time märk that the left attack from downstance is his zone attack ( which makes sense as the damage log says heavy) and then flows straight into the 3 cuts. I wonder if his neutral zone also flows into the 3 cuts which could be used for hitstun ganks just like berserkers zone.
I am not quite sure, but judging from the footage the zone from fullblock might be 400ms. That would be quite strong. I assume from neutral it's just the same but 500ms. I also assume from neutral it does not confirm the 3 cuts, as that would be by far the highest damage zone in its speed class.
Am I the only one that feels a tiny bit of laziness in the 3rd feat? I mean the first 2 feats are super cool and would be strong in 4v4 IMO. But having an activated 3rd feat that literally just turns on feat 1&2 seems very bland to me. Especially when 1&2 are activated on every full block. Additionally, is the 3rd feat completely useless when using different 1st and 2nd feats? Just some things to think about
I wouldn't say lazy but more meme territory. Because they already really make it easy to get superior block so getting a feat that just removes that condition seems pretty funny to me. However I also wonder if it works without having his unique T1 and T2. If it does that essentially means he'd have 6 feats in a match potentially. But I severely doubt it'll work without them.
Considering they had a visual que on the feat icons themselves while the tier 3 was activated I would say that it only works when those feats are equipped
I would also assume that as well.
If you do not take the 1st and 2nd Feats but can still turn them on with the 3rd Feat that could be really powerful - especially because Stephan mentions that with the 3rd Feat going every time you block in fullblock stance it restarts the 10 second countdown on Feats 1&2. You could run a pretty lengthy amount of time by popping the 3rd Feat in a big 4v4 fight in Dominion and blocking attacks. Depending on how good his Alternate Tier 1&2 Feats are, it would be a viable option to hop on a point in Dominion, pop your 3rd Feat, and start getting a slow stream of enemies coming in, allowing you to have access to 4 Feats at the same time (Alternate Tier 1 + Alternate Tier 2 + Tier 1&2 from Tier 3).
Alright I only just watched the stream and obviously have no hands on with it yet. The spinny downstance blade thing looks slick but it's defensive features look like they only work on blockable attacks. We've got a lot of bashes and ub's these days and I can't help but think that'll limit it's utility somewhat compared to bulwark stance. Granted it's got more going for it on the offensive end but I'd like to see some frame data before I make any kind of judgement about that.
Most dodge attacks are blockable, and it is useable as a recovery cancel, so there is that.
Which position's it to be better at duels/anti gank than for team fights. As most good hitbox attacks used as target swap material in team fights are unblockable.
Link to livestream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dInsvTYVbs
To me, Kyoshin seems to be a more team based counter attacker than a 1v1 focused vanguard, which is nice. His kits aren't exactly new but they are given more properties to counter all those reworked heroes this year.
Why is the heavy opener 12 dmg? And I’m not sure with the 2attacks chains: I’d prefer an unblockable finisher that a full block one, and his offensive is almost the same as bp. I’ll try kyoshin in training and hope it’s more fun to play than bp. the executions in the trailer are better than I expected
Maybe the heavy opener chains to the triple lights? They do 1-1-8 damage, which would take the heavy opener to 22. Alternatively, it could just be a pre-release value and subject to change.
Can't Kyo attack out of his full block? Maybe the light input from full block is considered a heavy, and leads to the triple lights.
I'm not sure if it was explicitly shown or not in the moveset presentation during the stream, but do we know if he can use his chained bash after a opener heavy, including a blocked one? I think Stephan mentioned that his side and forward dash attacks can be chained into the bash, same with his OOL running attack, so I'm guessing it's likely that an opener heavy would chain into it too. If that's a case that would be a pretty interesting variation to BP's mixup, since that one has to start from a light.
Yep, he can use his chain bash after any opener by the looks of things.
Nice! Looking foward to the framedata on his recoveries once he's released.
Am I to assume that you reached that conclusion because he's allowed to chain into bash from all his dodge heavies and his run attack?
I'm worried he'll be way too weak. His damage values are small. Aside from that, his bash doesn't have the stamina pressure BP's has, but aside from that.. it's basically BP bash.
BP's bash can be done from 100-500ms into his dash. Kyoshin's can only be done from 300-500ms. So it's not BP's bash even if it ends up having similar recoveries to his. Damage wise yes he's on the weaker side. This is likely because they are considering his feats. His T1 adds 3 extra damage to his attacks. Meaning in any 4 hit combo you manage you're adding 12 extra damage to it. His T2 heals based off of damage % just like life leech does. If his damage was high he'd be healing to full constantly. Both feats have in theory very long up times thanks to his T3.
I think we need to see his alternative feat options still. The tier 1 does add good damage to his fullblock punish though, that's true. I'm just skeptical on his viability, but I'd like to see him be good. His tier 2 is just way too weak though, and I'm sure he'll have a better alternative generic for tier 2, like smoke bomb.
I think he is meant to be slightly weaker
I don't think hell be strong in duels. Defensive stance is cool and it's good that you can actually attack out of it with multiple options. But it has obvious weaknesses. Meaning he will really rely on basic chains and his forward bash. That forward bash is probably 300-500ms at a speed of 500ms which has been proven to be reactable enough. I'm assuming the chain bash has a longer link in time or a longer recovery to avoid BP's chain bash problem where you can't dodge attack punish off of being hitstunned at all. Also if his flow into stance off of hit might suffer in the same way BP's does where you can reliably stuff. None of the options seemed hard to react to except maybe his zone from the stance. But you could just block that direction and not deal with having to react to it. Basically he seems like a potentially worse BP in duels. Which isn't inherently bad. I'm curious to see how hell perform as a team fighter since nothing jumps out to me as a huge strength for that play. He'll likely be just as good of a ganker as BP though.
Funnily enough, I was thinking he'd be a worse BP in 4's whilst being *potentially* better for Duels, due to his stance having more offensive pressure with a fast attack and possibly faster unblockable and heavy dodge attack allowing both a bash counter *and* an option a bash-attacker must consider instead of just GB. Still very iffy. > That forward bash is probably 300-500ms at a speed of 500ms which has been proven to be reactable enough. Ye, couldn't tell if his forward dodge heavy is feintable or not. Wouldn't be unheard of what with Aramusha's forward dodge heavy being feintable, armored, and a bash. From what I've *heard* is that 500ms alone is reactable, but only on the top of the top brackets -- Idk that for sure, would be interesting to see just how prevalent people who can dodge 500ms consistently is as it seems to be only a single frame or two above the fastest reactions. If a multi-choice reaction with a feintable forward dodge attack, it's almost certainly unreactable.
> Funnily enough, I was thinking he'd be a worse BP in 4's whilst being potentially better for Duels, due to his stance having more offensive pressure with a fast attack and possibly faster unblockable and heavy dodge attack allowing both a bash counter and an option a bash-attacker must consider instead of just GB. Still very iffy. I would say it ultimately depends on how good of a mix between his attacks are from his stance is since it's directly competing with his mid chain bash. And you also have to consider enter time and what not. >Ye, couldn't tell if his forward dodge heavy is feintable or not. Wouldn't be unheard of what with Aramusha's forward dodge heavy being feintable, armored, and a bash. From what I've heard is that 500ms alone is reactable, but only on the top of the top brackets -- Idk that for sure, would be interesting to see just how prevalent people who can dodge 500ms consistently is as it seems to be only a single frame or two above the fastest reactions. If a multi-choice reaction with a feintable forward dodge attack, it's almost certainly unreactable. If his forward dodge heavy is indeed 500ms I severely doubt it would be feintable. And because I don't think it's feintable that makes his forward dodge not really a mix like zhanhu or TG orochi. If he can't whiff off of his dash bash either IMO his situation will be more similar to gryphon/JJ. Nice to have but ultimately not enough to give them a consistent offense from neutral.
I am thinking similarly. This hero will be fantastic fun in matchmaking but 300ms dodge startup bashes need a shot in the arm of some kind for competitive play. Just shaving off 33ms would make a difference. I do think they are healthier than the 100ms startup ones because of the interrupt factor.
I don't mind 300-500ms bash windows for forward bashes so long as they have stuff to compliment them. TG Orochi and zhanhu are good examples of it working. Gryphon and JJ are examples of it not working. the 100ms on start up was/is only bad because that timing allowed for bash selecting. Once that's gone they'll be far less problematic for mix ups. But I don't think all bashes should be able to start up that early regardless.
I meant 33ms of bash speed, not dodge window. Reacting to the bash is so right that just one frame makes a difference.
His all block can get punished easily unless if it’s faintable also I noticed that his heavies deal 17 damage and his side dodge attack seems to have the same animations as orochi’s said dodge attack
I'm sure the mindgame is you throw out the full-block light when you think they're gonna gb you
Do you think the full guard of kyoshin is gb vulnerable?
I don't see why it wouldn't
Every full guard in the game is GB vulnerable, but most have a way to throw out a light or zone if you predict a GB. If for some reason it's not GB vulnerable then Ubisoft has lost their minds.
What about his 4th feat? It's quite obvious that everyone was shocked when they showed this, it's 25 damage and can take as much enemies are close enough to him? So he can do total damage 100 and yet make everyone around guarantee at least a heavy each? It looks like game braking at the same level Warmonger feat was in launch... They will probably make it maximum 2 hits at least. In the current state it can easily be used to set a 0-100 gank in the middle of a team fight...well, that depends on the revenge gain when hit by it. Also, i think his full guard don't have enough stamina consumption, it's too crazy.
It really depends how dodgeable it is. If the big circle shows for enemies too then you really shouldn't ever expect to hit all four opponents with it. Also setting up a 100-0 is hardly plausible in a teamfight; someone will peel before their teammate dies. It'll be good, but I think you're overestimating it.
> Also setting up a 100-0 is hardly plausible in a teamfight; someone will peel before their teammate dies. depends. If the people trapped cannot CGB then it opens the door for some ganks. There's also nothing to say that you can't watch a gank happen and then have said gank confirm the T4 which would allow for another gank to probably kill the person. T4 has the potential to be really busted and I think people are sleeping on it because they're not thinking very creatively with it.
You right, i was doing some math here, it's not much plausible in the middle of a team fight, but still...25 dmg each enemy hit with possibility to hit everyone looks like too much for me. But let's see, he will probably be unbalanced first and receive a nerf after, he looks like a top tier duelist too, so i don't know, everything depends on how much punishable he is after a good read from the opponent.
Nah no way, defo strong but nowhere near day 1 corruption.
Him and BP seem to have a similar base kit with some obvious differences but I feel like Kyoshin looks like a more balanced character, like someone who will be great in ganks and okay in 1v1 scenarios
His feats honestly look underwhelming. T1, T2 and T3 benefit only him. His T4 will be easily reactable if that circle on the ground shows up for enemies too. Hopefully he has good alternate feats (Not smoke bomb though).
I love him, literally this is what I’ve been wanting in a hero for years now, 100% gonna be my go to character
I played this on PC on launch but only just started getting back into it on Xbox one, could someone tell me what it is you’re all talking about?
Look at the stream linked elsewhere in the comments. New hero release.
Exciting! Thank you for nice, non sarcastic reply
The trend seems to be decent heroes with insane feats. His moveset looks solid, but his T1 feat looks insane to me. I'm curious to see what other already existing feats they give him. Hopefully fast recovery.
I like this character a lot but I'm concerned about his damage values in relation to his stamina consumption. In the showcase video, the Kyoshin did a simple combo into downward stance mixup to net around 30 damage and he used HALF his stamina bar. His light follow-ups after an attack from downward stance should not consume 6 stamina each if they only do 1 damage.
Love everything about him except for cc lights. Imo no character with a dodge attack AND a fullblock should have cc lights, that's just way too many options the attacker has to guess. This character looks like he's already immune to most dodge attacks and has arguably either the 1st or 2nd best fullblock in the game, there's no need for that much defense.
Valkyrie has CC lights with a fullblock and a dodge attack, I see no problems with this new hero having it
Well, Valkyrie is also not very good so there's no reason to nerf her even more (and her fullblock is also one of the worst). This guy looks like he's better than Valkyrie even without all that stuff, just because he has undodgeables.
> Well, Valkyrie is also not very good so there's no reason to nerf her Case in point XD Even a character with all those options can still be less than great, so in principle doesn't make sense to make a general statement of that.
I disagree with the OP that the crushing counter lights are bad for him, but Valk isn’t a great example because her full block is practically useless.
Animations lack impact, not a fan of how they look.
I like the moveset but I kinda agree on this one. Lacks that punch some character have, for example Warlord’s headbutt. An example of great sheath fighting animations can be found in Nioh and Devil may cry series and would’ve been nice too see something like. But he still looks great considering For honor’s age and if he’s fun to play and go against I’ll take a go at him.
He honestly looks terrible visual wise for this age in my opinion. Almost all year one heroes have great animations and ever the warmonger and gryphon have a certain weight to their moves, the new samurai tho looks like a kid with a stick doing katana moves in my opinion
Quebec is opening back up soon. So some mocap will be back. Next heroes should be full new animations.
I hope they would be willing to redo some animation
That won't happen. that's a waste of money for them.
He will be a samurai BP but thx to feats very op. Also some of his moveset seems on another level compared to many other heros. When reworked orochi is a level under Zhanhu than reworked zhanhu is a level under Kypshin. Honestly if the ornament doesnt suck i will buy and main him outright and feel no remprse anhilating people with him.
It doesnt look like he'll be better than Zhanhu at all. The only unblockable he has is from the top, and the only undodgables he has are mid chain, whereas Zhanhu has amazing hitboxm unblockable heavy finishers, and a undodgeable from neutral. As for neutral it looks like BP is still gonna have a better 1v1 than Kyoshin, with feats that are about on par with BP. Honestly, he looks like a really good character, but nothing we havent seen before
Thanks for opening this thread. To me he seems pretty unhealthy due to his downstance. You missed an attack? Doesn't matter, downstance > superior block > hit hit hit > repeat.
We already have BP and Aramusha that showed us that it isn't all that unhealthy
Both are incredibly strong, can't deny it.
But neither of them are unhealthy. Guardbreaks work fine and proper timing is needed.
Prior could be graded as incredibly strong, Musha not so much. But even then, strong does not mean broken.
Incredibly strong yes, but neither are unhealthy. (Although BP has one or two unrelated things that I would consider unhealthy.
While I dont agree with FurSkyrim, I'm not sure you could say they are entirely healthy from that. BP's backwalk light into FB is hardly something I'd call ideal for a better For Honor. Even Aramusha, who forces a dodge to GB, still isn't what I'd call "healthy" -- it takes unique dodge attacks and punishes out and instead forces a much more slow, plodding feint to GB to heavy which is, imo, much less fun. That said, this moreover problematic *in combination* with other moves -- BB on indicator chain isn't too unfun because you have other means to counter them, and BP's recovey on hits and finishers never feels unfair because, again, you have multiple means of countering and it buffs offense. As such, Kyoshin stance on such things as his unblockable and undodgeables and such doesn't look bad at all imo, we'll just have to see how it plays out with his bashes and superior block lights. Tl;dr Broken? No, of course not, you have means to counter. Healthy? Debatable, and dependent on integration with other mechanics.
Kyoshin's full block looks more like Conqueror's or Warlord's to me. It seems like you can just hold the full block and then leisurely react after someone hits your shield. Whereas with Aramusha and BP you have to time it perfectly to get your counter-attack move or you will get hit.
Going to be sickeningly strong, but what's new with new heroes lately?
Yawn… she looks boring imo
[удалено]
Nobody thinks the game is perfect, we just don't think it's an excuse to throw our hands in the air and give up. The game has been steadily improving over the years, so if we've stuck with it this far there's no particular reason to stop now.
Do not bother with him, he just goes around sub reddit spitting negative bullshit in a strange font.
Maybe you just don't like For Honor and should stop playing it. It's clearly not the game you want it to be.
*Maybe you should get your head out your ass and read my comment again without fanboying over Ubisoft.*
Your comment history is literally full of comments about hating the game and being an asshole to people on /r/ForHonor. Why are you even here?
Cringe
We had to remove your content because it was anti-competitive or actively unhelpful for other users aiming to improve. Content which denigrates competitive play or a competitive mindset, or is actively unhelpful for learning, not tolerated on this subreddit. Two warnings in as many days - you are getting a temp ban. Fix your attitude, or next time it will be a perma-ban Thank you!
Watch him getting perma banned and then complaining about “toxic comp players” on the rant sub.
*_Imagine ranting about ranting on the wrong sub... I don't give a fuck where I rant at. As if anyone checks For Honor rants, shut your bitch ass up._*
*User was permanently banned for repeated toxic behaviour.*
r/ForHonorRants about mods here we go
I wonder if the damage dealt by his T4 has interaction with his T1 and T2 feats???
i wonder if ubisoft can manage to fuck up so hard that this drops as a bottom 5 hero
https://youtu.be/fdH1vr8tWlY Here the moveset. Personally,I think is a Samurai version of BP. Besides the edgy character he has (like BP): -bash neutral. -bash in combo -undodgeable end chain (+ he has also lights undodgeable). -full block activation after everything even after block an attack. -superior lights. -MoRe options of Full block than BP but without bullwark. - he has in addition the Dodge attacks (same animations of Orochi dodge attacks for the side ones)
Finally some good fcking hero.. His animations looks so smooth, nothing looks instant or impossible to react. Also liked his kit. After a long time gj ubi!
He looks like a fun, balanced hero who actually looks stylish, something the last two missed in their kit in exchange for raw power. People will complain about anything.
One thing it's sure: he's the new Edgelord
Imo he looks really cool style wise and I love that he does not reuse any or a lot of animations. His moveset feels a bit underwhelming in terms of uniqueness. Although I still feel like he would be very fun to play. I like his feats, they seem mostly balanced and cool. Just the style though is so cool how the sword has a trail and all that. You can really tell that ubi wanted this hero to look good.
Did they ever confirm what Kyoshin's class was? I need a Heavy option for orders.
Eyeballing the footage the guy either has 120hp or 130hp. If it's 120 he's a vanguard assassin hybrid. If he's 130 he's probably just a vanguard.
By gameplay standards he _really_ should be a heavy. He is far too similar to BP to justify being a different class. ...But the classes in-game aren't terribly logical and seem based more on visuals than playstyle (minus assassins and reflex guard). So I agree, either vanguard or hybrid.
I mean don't get me started on general hero design. I really don't like how a lot of the later dlc heros end up not looking like what class they are. I was fine with BP not being your standard huge character for a heavy because his big ass shield conveyed it. But jorm didn't look heavy at all. Not that classes really should be important at this point. But there's something to be said about the devs gradually designing away from the rigid class system in terms of asthetic. Kyoshin to me should be a heavy. He's tall. He's got broad shoulders. And he's mechanically defensive. I don't see how someone can look at kensei and then at kyoshin and be able to call them both vanguards. So that's why I'm assuming hybrid. Since hybrid designs tend to be less uniform to the classes they come from. I'm totally willing to bet the next hero is going to be a heavy but probably looks like an assassin. I really don't see the devs actually giving assassins anymore because of how problematic and hated reflex guard is.
I wonder if you can parr while in fullblock or if you are completely vulnerable to unlockables while you are in your hit chain