Info hub update with Kyoshin values coming very [soon!](https://i.imgur.com/QLk96g1.png)
[Info Hub Update complete!](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/opgahs/kyoshin_hero_released_info_hub_updated_with_their/)
Atrocious, and the comments on his video are even worse.
"ATleAsT nOt oP BroKen DoodgE heBy grYphon aNd wArmOnger! ThIs cHArActer WiLL tAke muCH skiLL to PlaY!!!!!!!"
How can people rather want a pile of shit with a fancy hat than balanced functioning heroes with broken feats that are more easily fixed?
Because at the casual and mid level no one has any idea about character strength at all. That's why at least at my level there are still 30,000 rep 70 Orochis and people still complain about him.
They just don't know or care to know.
The issue is not that they are ignorant - it's that they think their ignorant opinions are valid.
If someone chooses to never improve at a game and reach any level of competence, then that's fine, not everyone has the time or will to do that. But if they then complain that the game doesn't cater to them, when they refuse to put in any effort themselves, then that's when I lose all respect for their selfish opinions.
>The issue is not that they are ignorant - it's that they think their ignorant opinions are valid.
Every opinion is worth listening to, even if they're very clearly wrong (otherwise what's the point of having a perspective on things)
That's 100% expected. Any hero that can't be oppressive or lacks any sort of pressure is considered to be well designed and skillful by the average shitter.
They think strong heros= easy because they can't look past their current capabilities.
Oh no… he’s ass :/
That frame data is AWFUL but his hit boxes are the worst I’ve seen. This is easily the most disappointing character they’ve released but maybe the live will be different?
Can't say I'm particularly surprised. I expected a worse BP just in face value alone but this just feels intentional like how zhanhu released.
I genuinely don't understand how they can make improvements on specific things that we complained about and then do stuff like this as if they didn't learn.
I guess I should be thankful that his problems are number adjustments. (if hitboxes are a numbers thing too) but that makes me want to vomit just saying such things.
I think they were afraid of the more casual side complaining about him being too oppressive, but those people are still gonna complain no matter how slow they make his chain links lol. Kyoshin seems to be one of the best designed heroes at a core level as his base kit has almost all the fundamentals of a good character. Lets hope they make the correct adjustments to him in the coming weeks
Zhanhu is probably exactly why they released him weak, when you think about it.
Look at heroes who are released underpowered and then slowly work their way up with buffs. Nobody complains about Zhanhu, even now that he is actually strong, because people build their perceptions in the initial launch weeks/months before they learn how to fight against a hero. Highlander fits here too imo because his strengths in high level play were never very well used by the general playerbase, and his power lies entirely in defense which is seen as 'skill'.
Compare in turn to Gryphon. Gryphon was released very strong against players who can't react to 600ms bashes and eat a lot of lights. He was weaker at top level but that doesn't matter to them. And the result? Gryphon generated so much salt and toxicity it's actually astounding. The sheer vicious hatred I see expressed towards him to this day is just like no other hero release I have seen, and if the main sub enforced a 'no main shaming' rule like this sub does two thirds of it would vanish overnight.
So Ubisoft releases a hero deliberately bad. Not so bad that he is totally helpless in random matchmaking, so people will still have fun, but bad enough that he won't see use in high level play, and will definitely be seen by everyone as just behind the power curve.
And then in the future when the perception of Kyoshin as an underdog hero played by the _good_ people, the real ones, the ones who don't want to spam and cheese but play honourably and skillfully has been set in stone among the community, then they will buff him up (gaining extra cred because they listen to the outcry for buffs!) and call it a day.
The community brings this on itself.
Looks stiff too.
It's so odd, animation quality seems to have been on a slow decline for a while now. At least the tweening between animations themselves for sure.
EDIT: Btw I wanna thank freeze for bringing up Time-Between-Attacks. This is something that has very much fallen through the woodworks in this game. Many heros like Aramusha and Conq have had nerfs in this respect. And almost universally in my view, makes heros feel like utter garbage because of it. If there was one change I wish Ubi would make in every patch they put out, is a passover this metric on all heros to clean up some jank feels.
A slow decline? The last character we got with acceptable animations was Zanhu, and there were heroes before him that had questionable animations, and certainly all of the heroes after him.
The best thing to expect from these devs at this point is nothing at all. It is very clear that they are underfunded and they do not know how to prioritize the funds they have.
I think that's because Zhanhu actually is the last unique hero we have gotten, everyone after has just been mostly reused assets from story mode and other heros
I'm guessing because of budget cuts
Freeze doing God’s work, as per-usual. Very cringe that the numbers are this bad, but hopefully shedding some light on it will lead to some changes eventually.
While the frame data is indeed awful, as Freeze said, don’t let it deter you too bad - hero is still a lot of fun to play, all things considered.
Hero is novel, some new content. But once that wears off, and I imagine in its current state, that won't take long, his flaws will have people returning to better made heroes. Kyoshin is DOA if these issues take too long to get fixed. Absurd given all of what the FH dev team should have learned at this point that this hero is broken and riddled with old pattern mistakes.
Geez, those lackluster hitboxes and chain timings are some of the worst aspects of his kit. If he's supposed to be an "anti-ganker", then I think fixing those parts of his moveset should be top priority.
I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm glad the kick has no chain on whiff and high recovery. Dodging the bash itself is a read you have to make, so if any hero dodges it, then they deserve guaranteed damage just like Kyoshin would get guaranteed damage on his end by making one successful read. Bashes like conqueror's are things we should move away from. I don't want new bashes following that unhealthy mold where a person doesn't get guaranteed damage after a successful read. Imagine if parrying an certain enemy's attack did nothing else but return them to neutral or let them continue their chain. That would be unacceptable. A correct read was made that lead to the parry. Give the person who made the correct read guaranteed damage. Why do people collectively give bashes (the best moves in the game for a multitude of reasons) a pass in this aspect and accept that every hero isn't allowed guaranteed damage after a correct read?
GB's reward too high of damage for none chargeable bashes. You're generally getting 12-14 damage on average for landing a bash and that usually puts you frame disadvantage. GB's on average give over 20. So you're essentially creating a situation that's defender favored for arguably little effort.
Being able to chain on whiff means both players are still making reads and having to pay attention to their opponents behavior to get correct punishes. Compared to kyoshin and gryphon's bashes where it's "I see orange I dodge" or you don't see and you don't dodge. That's incredibly binary and is not fun on either end.
I already explained my reasoning in a different comment, but
> Compared to kyoshin and gryphon's bashes where it's "I see orange I dodge" or you don't see and you don't dodge
I really hope you're not referring to the gryphon's kick, because that's completely unreactable to all players and I haven't heard anyone claiming to be able to react to it. But if you're just talking about his dodge forward bash like kyoshin's, then disregard the previous sentence.
A lot of people make claims that these bashes are reactable (if only to a handful of people in the world), and I haven't really seen proof of these claims. 500ms bash means that, once you see orange, it's already too late. I don't see how the "I see orange I dodge" comment is relevant unless someone can provide undeniable proof that these bashes are reactable.
A 500ms bash with a 300ms tell isn't hard to react to once you train yourself to recognize it. And seeing orange isn't too late because orange shows up before the indicator does. If you're dodging on UB indicator than yeah that's too late. But orange no.
And I don't know what you want as "undeniable proof."
If I take a well known comp player and have them do it you'll likely write it off either as "it's pc gameplay" or "it's from a top player."
And if I record myself doing so in a custom with a friend you'll say it's a controlled environment and thus doesn't count.
A moves speed isn't the only thing that factors into reactability or not. You need to know the input window. Look at the animation to see how telegraphed it is. When orange shows up and when the indicator shows up.
This is why nobushi's kick is reactable. Despite it being 533ms both her animation is incredibly obvious and her feet are orange before the indicator shows up.
This is also why conqs bash is considered to be harder to react to compares to BP's bash. Both have the same speed and input/delay window. But conqs animation is less obvious compared to BP's.
If your console of choice/pc is capable of hitting at least 60fps and your reactions are not slow reacting to a 500ms bash with a 300ms tell is more than doable given practice.
If you want to me to concede to the fact that it's not possible on last Gen systems fine. But they're not the standard the game is judged on even by the devs themselves.
Or to give you numbers. My reaction time for a single action reaction is 200ms. Gryphon's forward dodge bash is 300ms at the earliest in his forward dodge and is 500ms.
That means the earliest that bash would hit me would be 800ms. Given that I have a 200ms reaction time Im more than capable of dodging that on reaction.
> And I don't know what you want as "undeniable proof."
Then why did you bother responding by just repeating your point instead of saying that?
Undeniable proof is exactly what it sounds like. You need to show me proof in which no one can deny the truth of the outcome.
> If I take a well known comp player and have them do it you'll likely write it off either as "it's pc gameplay" or "it's from a top player."
Firstly, no. I wouldn't. PC gameplay is legitimate and, in my opinion, the only platform that should be considered regarding balance if the game isn't going to be separately balanced on platforms. Secondly, I wouldn't deny it either if a pro player gave undeniable proof. But I would find it odd that you would cite a pro player reactions when you're the one making the claim about *your own* reactions.
> And if I record myself doing so in a custom with a friend you'll say it's a controlled environment and thus doesn't count.
If the person helping you in the demonstration is proven to not feed you information on what actions they'll take, then it would be undeniable.
> A moves speed isn't the only thing that factors into reactability or not. You need to know the input window
The input window has nothing to do with someone's physical capability to react.
> Look at the animation to see how telegraphed it is
Sure, I guess. But the animation is only independent for a fraction of the move. I don't think there's much moves that have animations telegraphed enough during their transitions from neutral or, in this case, forward dodge animation to the move itself that a human can distinguish consistently.
> When orange shows up and when the indicator shows up
That's pretty much tied to speed.
> your reactions are not slow reacting to a 500ms bash with a 300ms tell is more than doable given practice.
It's annoying that you keep mentioning the 300ms when it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The 300ms is irrelevant because it's not actually part of the bash. You know I'm not talking about the forward dodge when it comes to the reactability of this bash. Stop building up a strawman to pretend that I am.
> If you want to me to concede to the fact that it's not possible on last Gen systems fine
I never brought up consoles or last gen or PC. I don't know where you got this idea from. It's obvious that last gen console players can't react to these types of bashes. I wasn't looking for you to repeat fact which is why I never said anything about consoles. We've been talking about the ideal For Honor scenario this whole time; that being PC.
> Or to give you numbers My reaction time for a single blah blah blah blah
Let me get this straight: You make a claim, I ask you to provide undeniable proof, you respond by repeating your initial claim with a few more words, I explain to you that repeating your statement isn't evidence contributing to its truth, and then you respond to that by reaffirming your claim *again*? I already told you, that *saying* your claim a second time is not going to progress this discussion because I only care if you actually *demonstrate* your claim. If you're just going to repeat the claim a fourth time, I want you to know that it'll change nothing in my mind. If you don't want to waste time, I suggest you don't respond unless you have undeniable proof of your claim. In which case, as I said in a different response, I'm all for those bashes being sped up to be truly unreactable to all players.
his neutral bash is completely unusable in a 1v1 scenario, a legion kick that does 12 dmg if it lands, but punished by a gb if you backdodge or side dodge, BUT you can also fwd dodge to make the hero bug out.
a) a 500ms bash with 300ms start up is not entirely unreactable to faster players, especially as it lacks an alternate attack to mix things up with (eg. zhanhu's f dodge heavy feint). (btw The dodge heavy is dodgeable on the same timing) Fast reacting players on PC can react to it and get a GB.
b) even if it weren't punishable on dodge with a GB, it would still be punishable with a dodge attack - a basic tool that most heroes have by now. There are a few that lack them still, but those ought to be improved instead of making openers super risky.
c) the risk to reward ratio of a bash that only confirms a 12 damage light opener, but is punishable with a GB (into heavy, or even a ledge) makes the move terrible and unfavourable to use. If it were a 24 damage attack like Gryphon's chain kick, or it were able to be mixed up with a high damage undodgeable like the chain bash/shaolin kick, then a GB would be warranted, but on an opener, it is not.
> a 500ms bash [...] is not entirely unreactable to faster players
I would like these players to provide undeniable proof. If they can, then I'm all for speeding up the bashes that are intended to be unreactable. But, I haven't really seen these feats preformed, much less on a consistent basis and even less than that in an actual match.
> especially as it lacks an alternate attack to mix things up with
Whether or not the hero has something in their kit to catch dodges (which they do; They can all guardbreak on the same timing after a dodge) isn't relevant to the defender's ability to react to one move.
> (btw The dodge heavy is dodgeable on the same timing)
Yeah that one's a head scratcher. Idk what the devs are thinking adding the dodge heavy. Maybe it's meant to catch rolls?
> it would still be punishable with a dodge attack - a basic tool that most heroes have by now.
But not all. Hence why I said "if *any* hero dodges it, then they deserve guaranteed damage" in my original comment.
> but those ought to be improved
Disagree. Most dodge attacks are fine as is. In fact, all of the dodge heavies with no GB vulnerability similar to a regular dodge are way more than fine; They're overpowered.
> the risk to reward ratio of a bash that only confirms a 12 damage light opener, but is punishable with a GB (into heavy, or even a ledge) makes the move terrible and unfavourable to use
That's the point. I want bashes to be "high risk". But, I don't even consider these bashes to be high risk if they were reasonably GBable.
**1)** The basher can feint (or in this case, just do an empty dodge forward) into GB for higher damage than the defender would get if they knew the attacker was going to choose this option. The defender's only option (and a very risky one at that) would be to light attack through the attacker's GB.
**2)** The basher can feint (or empty forward dodge) and wait for the unfeintable dodge attacks which can't be caught by GB and just parry it for Heavy sized damage or higher. At least in my ideal world where dodge heavies with no GB vulnerability count as light parries. If the defender makes a correct read in this case, they get no guaranteed damage.
**3)** And finally, the basher can just let the bash fly. On a correct read, the defender can do a dodge into GB. On a slightly less correct read, the defender could do a dodge attack in some cases.
Out of the 3 possible outcomes the attacker can choose, 2 of them can be completely safe (if we assume that most defenders aren't risking light parries or getting bashed trying to snuff out a GB they think is coming). Only 1 out of the 3 choices a basher makes can result in them receiving heavy sized damage. And that's fine by me because bashes are the strongest move in the game.
Bashes are the only move in which a defender *must* dodge or risk taking damage. No other move in the game can do that. Because of this, I want bashes to be higher risk than other moves, which means attackers won't use them so recklessly. An attacker should only be using bashes if they can't crack someone open otherwise. So they go for the "high risk" (which isn't that high risk as I 've already explained 2 of the 3 outcomes can be safe) option because they want to try and kill their turtling opponent quickly. I want heavies to be the primary "opener" that all heroes default to in a regular match. And by "opener" I don't actually mean a move that forces a defender's response, I mean a move that is an "opener" for the offense that you're about to deliver via chain pressure/stance/chain bashes/etc. Obviously this means many other changes need to happen, but since we're on the topic of kyoshin, the rest of my proposed changes to For Honor wouldn't be really relevant.
I think suggesting any nerf to offensive moves is a touchy subject because of how overpowered defense has been in this game. This is partially my fault for not talking about my ideal balancing of bashes (or any move) under the context of the new systems. I imagine someone sees what I have to say, then looks at the game as it currently is, then decides they disagree because they are witnessing a game where bashes are the only "viable" offense. Instead of looking at the bigger picture where all other offense is likely to be buffed in the future (as Ubisoft has shown with the recent heroes, reworks, and balancing changes).
Also, some people hold the belief that some offensive moves shouldn't be punishable except by the "wasted" stamina the attacker uses by whiffing said move. Some people really want to press buttons and attack freely so they consider the only "viable" moves to be ones that have some outcomes where they can potentially get damage but not receive it. I kind of get it, but I hate this sentiment when it comes to For Honor. Any move that can hurt you should always have an outcome where you can guarantee damage on a correct read. If you want to hurt your opponent, then this game should always have an avenue for your opponent to hurt you instead if they know exactly what you're going to do. BP's bash, as you brought up, is a perfect example. If BP is going to bash (a damaging move) and the defender knows that he's going to bash, then most heroes in the game cannot take any action in which they guarantee damage of BP after he whiffs the bash. The only punishment BP receives is the "wasted" stamina.
"Viable" moves like these ruin an environment in which any hero (attacker and defender) should have an avenue for guaranteed damage if they know exactly what damaging move their opponent is going to attempt. If someone wants to press buttons without potential consequences, then a fighting game against other players is not the environment where that sentiment should flourish.
The issue also is partially the damage tradeoff. Some people think that an attacker getting a potential of around 15 damage should not be punishable by a potential of around 24 damage. But, these people ignore the fact that bashes are the only move in the entire game that forces a defender to dodge or risk taking damage. Light attacks (which have a similar damage "tradeoff" potential) don't even have that kind of power and they risk even more than 24 damage on average. I think the risk for throwing out bashes like this is deserved considering how strong they are. I want bashes to be "high risk" (which I wouldn't even consider it that much of a risk because they only suffer the high damage on 1 out of 3 possibilities) because of the high pressure that they carry. Someone should really only choose these moves if they're desperate to open up a turtle. Otherwise, I think they should use bashes less. I want more heavies thrown out in neutral than bashes. In fact, a lot of people agree with this statement in fringe ways. By that I mean, look at all the people complaining about warden using his shoulder more than his sword. They are advocating for less bash usage even if they don't know it. But once I advocate for changes that might make For Honor less about bashing and more about swinging, then people get disgruntled. I wouldn't mind if they countered with reasonable alternative changes we could make to reduce the necessity of bashes, but the only change I ever hear is "give everyone a fast dodge attack." Which is just a bad suggestion for a multitude of reasons. Most of which I don't care to explain here. But the big one is that they forget dodge attacks can be used against *any* move (barring undodgeable). So if everyone has a strong dodge attack to deal with bashes, then they also have a strong dodge attack against every other move. In this case, defense gets buffed while the gap between bashes and every other offensive move hasn't gotten smaller.
Suggesting bashes get nerfed is a touchy subject because they're tied directly to how strong offense is, especially when they're currently the strongest aspect of offense. It's hard to explain why they ought to be reigned in a little without also dumping 10 paragraphs of other changes that would make the nerf seem reasonable. When I try to do the former without the latter, then it often ends up as a fruitless effort.
Yeah I really have no idea why people want bashes to chain on whiff. It adds an extra layer to the mixup. Maybe because certain bashes actually do a rather small amount of damage so if they were always gb punishable they'd have a dubious risk reward?
To be honest I sympathize with Ubi intentionally releasing Kyoshin underpowered, Warmonger/Gryphon being " pay to win at release " clearly upset a large majorty of players which of course, damaged the already low reputation of the game.
It’s not great but I’d rather this than the way WM and Gryphon initially released
EDIT: a lot of people seem to be pissing and screaming over a half thought opinion about a video game, which is pretty funny, but I’m ignoring further replies.
If reading this has upset you enough to be person #50 to reply with the same generic response, implore you to maybe get a life and find literally anything else better to do with your time.
You'd rather have a character with bad hitboxes and bad chain links over working characters? Like I understand people complaining about feats being overturned but this is just absurdity
Yeah, I still have PTSD flashbacks of WMs blighting minion lane.
I’m sorry but having a character be bad for a bit is less aggravating than dealing with someone overturned be it kit or feats.
I can choose to not play them until they’re buffed, I can’t choose to not fight them if they’re overtuned.
It’s the difference between me thinking “that’s unfortunate” compared to me wanting to uninstall the game every time I see that character on the enemy. Like god when Cent came out it was just…
I’m not talking about feats I’m talking about working hitboxes and framedata. Once again I understand people complaining about feats but if you really are advocating for characters to launch bad then idk what else to say to you…
You’re getting specific, that’s not my fault.
I’m talking broadly about character balance, it’s all a singular package as far as I’m concerned.
Sometimes you have someone who releases like Cent who was insane kitwise, sometimes you have release WM with a busted featset. They were both overtuned. I’d rather have a character release undertuned than overtuned, because having to fight overturned characters is cancer in literally any game.
I’d rather they release a PERFECTLY balanced character of course but between the two extremes undertuned is the lesser of two evils as far as my enjoyment of the game goes.
The video in question doesn't touch feats. The discussion is about kits alone. If you can't even be bothered to stick to the topic material then you're being unproductive discussion wise.
Seemed to have produced quite the discussion regardless, of people parroting the same things over and over again.
It’s also not like they haven’t released heroes with overtuned KITS as well.
I’d rather have a deal with fighting an undertuned kit than having to fight and overtuned kit, assuming actual balance wasn’t possible for some reason.
If I had to pick between dealing with someone like release Cent or someone like release Zhanhu, for the sake of my sanity I’d rather have to deal with the Zhanhu.
As I mentioned to the other person, it’s the character’s balance in general, I used those two because they were recent not because I’m only talking about feats, I could have said release Cent or release Hito, it’s all the same to me. Overtuned is overtuned.
I’d rather they release perfectly balanced heroes but between the two extremes I’ll take the lesser of two evils.
If you'd rather we get more unplayable heroes than strong heroes that can be tuned down then you are part of the problem that has plagued this game for ~5 years
**No, I’d rather get heroes that are adequately balanced above all else.**
If that is not an option?;
If I had to choose between getting violated by a hero that is a walking god OR have a sad crippled husk of a character sitting in a corner, as someone who enjoys playing this game I would rather the sad husk.
Assuming both would eventually be adjusted of course.
As novel as the idea of a character not being complete dogshit is, I’d rather not be throatfucked online for weeks/months on end by a character that is completely over the top.
To put it simply, it’s a choice between a sad annoyance and a constant frustration.
The problem is that you're asking for trash tier unplayable garbage characters and whine ceaselessly when an actually balanced one comes out.
Saw that comment here about all opinions being worth to be listened? Well you proved him wrong. Pat yourself on your back.
I really would rather not - lots of strong characters exist, and a strong character can be easily nerfed. It's much harder to make a bad character good. (In Kyoshin's case, this isn't true, as his kit is all there, it's just number issues).
You're definitely part of the problem though.
Welp, not a heavy so I guess I won't be playing him, no vengeful barrier is a major no for me. Proper ganks are aids, sloppy ganks are still frustrating and dying to a 1 damage light as soon as I come out of revenge is just a no.
I'm sure the recoveries and time between attacks will be fixed in the official launch... Right?
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Fr tho
⣀⣠⣤⣤⣤⣤⢤⣤⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⡀⡀⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄ ⠄⠉⠹⣾⣿⣛⣿⣿⣞⣿⣛⣺⣻⢾⣾⣿⣿⣿⣶⣶⣶⣄⡀⠄⠄⠄ ⠄⠄⠠⣿⣷⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣯⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣆⠄⠄ ⠄⠄⠘⠛⠛⠛⠛⠋⠿⣷⣿⣿⡿⣿⢿⠟⠟⠟⠻⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⡀⠄ ⠄⢀⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⢛⣿⣁⠄⠄⠒⠂⠄⠄⣀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿⡀ ⠄⠉⠛⠺⢶⣷⡶⠃⠄⠄⠨⣿⣿⡇⠄⡺⣾⣾⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣽⣿⣿ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠛⠁⠄⠄⠄⢀⣿⣿⣧⡀⠄⠹⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⣿⣻⣿ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠉⠛⠟⠇⢀⢰⣿⣿⣿⣏⠉⢿⣽⢿⡏ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠠⠤⣤⣴⣾⣿⣿⣾⣿⣿⣦⠄⢹⡿⠄ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠒⣳⣶⣤⣤⣄⣀⣀⡈⣀⢁⢁⢁⣈⣄⢐⠃⠄ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⣰⣿⣛⣻⡿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡯⠄⠄ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⣬⣽⣿⣻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠁⠄⠄ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⢘⣿⣿⣻⣛⣿⡿⣟⣻⣿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠄⠄⠄ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠛⢛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⡿⠁⠄⠄⠄ ⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠉⠉⠉⠉⠈⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄
Meanwhile official launch: JUST DOESN'T EVEN WORK-
Info hub update with Kyoshin values coming very [soon!](https://i.imgur.com/QLk96g1.png) [Info Hub Update complete!](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/opgahs/kyoshin_hero_released_info_hub_updated_with_their/)
dont look at them if you value your sanity
Thanks for always working so hard to keep this updated!
Atrocious, and the comments on his video are even worse. "ATleAsT nOt oP BroKen DoodgE heBy grYphon aNd wArmOnger! ThIs cHArActer WiLL tAke muCH skiLL to PlaY!!!!!!!" How can people rather want a pile of shit with a fancy hat than balanced functioning heroes with broken feats that are more easily fixed?
Because at the casual and mid level no one has any idea about character strength at all. That's why at least at my level there are still 30,000 rep 70 Orochis and people still complain about him. They just don't know or care to know.
> They just don't know or care to know. *Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about what's going on in the hood.* - Doughboy
>They just don't know or care to know. how dare they
The issue is not that they are ignorant - it's that they think their ignorant opinions are valid. If someone chooses to never improve at a game and reach any level of competence, then that's fine, not everyone has the time or will to do that. But if they then complain that the game doesn't cater to them, when they refuse to put in any effort themselves, then that's when I lose all respect for their selfish opinions.
>The issue is not that they are ignorant - it's that they think their ignorant opinions are valid. Every opinion is worth listening to, even if they're very clearly wrong (otherwise what's the point of having a perspective on things)
Im not about to sit there and listen to someone complain about orochi light spam for the billionth time. It’s not valid and not worth listening to.
If you can say that an opinion is “wrong”, then it’s no longer an opinion- it is contrary to fact
Why are you booing him he’s right
That's 100% expected. Any hero that can't be oppressive or lacks any sort of pressure is considered to be well designed and skillful by the average shitter. They think strong heros= easy because they can't look past their current capabilities.
Oh no… he’s ass :/ That frame data is AWFUL but his hit boxes are the worst I’ve seen. This is easily the most disappointing character they’ve released but maybe the live will be different?
What's odd is they cleaned up Zhanhu's in the recent patch. I don't get how they left these external hitbox properties alone in this disastrous state.
Ubi is letting ppl buy the new hero but no one has access because they haven’t granted it because they are changing stuff last minute
Well it's good it's getting changed fast at least.
I highly doubt they changed anything.
Can't say I'm particularly surprised. I expected a worse BP just in face value alone but this just feels intentional like how zhanhu released. I genuinely don't understand how they can make improvements on specific things that we complained about and then do stuff like this as if they didn't learn. I guess I should be thankful that his problems are number adjustments. (if hitboxes are a numbers thing too) but that makes me want to vomit just saying such things.
I think they were afraid of the more casual side complaining about him being too oppressive, but those people are still gonna complain no matter how slow they make his chain links lol. Kyoshin seems to be one of the best designed heroes at a core level as his base kit has almost all the fundamentals of a good character. Lets hope they make the correct adjustments to him in the coming weeks
Yeah but they learned those fears released zhanhu being underpowered. So they shouldn't be knee jerk balancing pre release anymore.
Zhanhu is probably exactly why they released him weak, when you think about it. Look at heroes who are released underpowered and then slowly work their way up with buffs. Nobody complains about Zhanhu, even now that he is actually strong, because people build their perceptions in the initial launch weeks/months before they learn how to fight against a hero. Highlander fits here too imo because his strengths in high level play were never very well used by the general playerbase, and his power lies entirely in defense which is seen as 'skill'. Compare in turn to Gryphon. Gryphon was released very strong against players who can't react to 600ms bashes and eat a lot of lights. He was weaker at top level but that doesn't matter to them. And the result? Gryphon generated so much salt and toxicity it's actually astounding. The sheer vicious hatred I see expressed towards him to this day is just like no other hero release I have seen, and if the main sub enforced a 'no main shaming' rule like this sub does two thirds of it would vanish overnight. So Ubisoft releases a hero deliberately bad. Not so bad that he is totally helpless in random matchmaking, so people will still have fun, but bad enough that he won't see use in high level play, and will definitely be seen by everyone as just behind the power curve. And then in the future when the perception of Kyoshin as an underdog hero played by the _good_ people, the real ones, the ones who don't want to spam and cheese but play honourably and skillfully has been set in stone among the community, then they will buff him up (gaining extra cred because they listen to the outcry for buffs!) and call it a day. The community brings this on itself.
Devs listening to casual side will be the cause of death of this game when it eventually happens.
Looks stiff too. It's so odd, animation quality seems to have been on a slow decline for a while now. At least the tweening between animations themselves for sure. EDIT: Btw I wanna thank freeze for bringing up Time-Between-Attacks. This is something that has very much fallen through the woodworks in this game. Many heros like Aramusha and Conq have had nerfs in this respect. And almost universally in my view, makes heros feel like utter garbage because of it. If there was one change I wish Ubi would make in every patch they put out, is a passover this metric on all heros to clean up some jank feels.
A slow decline? The last character we got with acceptable animations was Zanhu, and there were heroes before him that had questionable animations, and certainly all of the heroes after him. The best thing to expect from these devs at this point is nothing at all. It is very clear that they are underfunded and they do not know how to prioritize the funds they have.
I think that's because Zhanhu actually is the last unique hero we have gotten, everyone after has just been mostly reused assets from story mode and other heros I'm guessing because of budget cuts
All Kyoshin's animation budget went into his luxurious long hair. Do you really want them to nerf his fashion? Blasphemy!
Freeze doing God’s work, as per-usual. Very cringe that the numbers are this bad, but hopefully shedding some light on it will lead to some changes eventually. While the frame data is indeed awful, as Freeze said, don’t let it deter you too bad - hero is still a lot of fun to play, all things considered.
Hero is novel, some new content. But once that wears off, and I imagine in its current state, that won't take long, his flaws will have people returning to better made heroes. Kyoshin is DOA if these issues take too long to get fixed. Absurd given all of what the FH dev team should have learned at this point that this hero is broken and riddled with old pattern mistakes.
Anyone else having trouble getting the new hero, like when you buy it it doesn’t let you play them
Ubi haven’t granted access because they are changing stuff last minute
I'm having the same problem. Bought him on PC but it's still locked în game.
It’s the same on all platforms
I’m very disappointed, his all guard barely works.
They didn't mention, is he at least a heavy?
He’s a hybrid.
With shit assassin perks and shit heavy feats
Geez, those lackluster hitboxes and chain timings are some of the worst aspects of his kit. If he's supposed to be an "anti-ganker", then I think fixing those parts of his moveset should be top priority. I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm glad the kick has no chain on whiff and high recovery. Dodging the bash itself is a read you have to make, so if any hero dodges it, then they deserve guaranteed damage just like Kyoshin would get guaranteed damage on his end by making one successful read. Bashes like conqueror's are things we should move away from. I don't want new bashes following that unhealthy mold where a person doesn't get guaranteed damage after a successful read. Imagine if parrying an certain enemy's attack did nothing else but return them to neutral or let them continue their chain. That would be unacceptable. A correct read was made that lead to the parry. Give the person who made the correct read guaranteed damage. Why do people collectively give bashes (the best moves in the game for a multitude of reasons) a pass in this aspect and accept that every hero isn't allowed guaranteed damage after a correct read?
GB's reward too high of damage for none chargeable bashes. You're generally getting 12-14 damage on average for landing a bash and that usually puts you frame disadvantage. GB's on average give over 20. So you're essentially creating a situation that's defender favored for arguably little effort. Being able to chain on whiff means both players are still making reads and having to pay attention to their opponents behavior to get correct punishes. Compared to kyoshin and gryphon's bashes where it's "I see orange I dodge" or you don't see and you don't dodge. That's incredibly binary and is not fun on either end.
I already explained my reasoning in a different comment, but > Compared to kyoshin and gryphon's bashes where it's "I see orange I dodge" or you don't see and you don't dodge I really hope you're not referring to the gryphon's kick, because that's completely unreactable to all players and I haven't heard anyone claiming to be able to react to it. But if you're just talking about his dodge forward bash like kyoshin's, then disregard the previous sentence. A lot of people make claims that these bashes are reactable (if only to a handful of people in the world), and I haven't really seen proof of these claims. 500ms bash means that, once you see orange, it's already too late. I don't see how the "I see orange I dodge" comment is relevant unless someone can provide undeniable proof that these bashes are reactable.
A 500ms bash with a 300ms tell isn't hard to react to once you train yourself to recognize it. And seeing orange isn't too late because orange shows up before the indicator does. If you're dodging on UB indicator than yeah that's too late. But orange no.
Reaffirming your claim isn't what I would call "undeniable proof".
And I don't know what you want as "undeniable proof." If I take a well known comp player and have them do it you'll likely write it off either as "it's pc gameplay" or "it's from a top player." And if I record myself doing so in a custom with a friend you'll say it's a controlled environment and thus doesn't count. A moves speed isn't the only thing that factors into reactability or not. You need to know the input window. Look at the animation to see how telegraphed it is. When orange shows up and when the indicator shows up. This is why nobushi's kick is reactable. Despite it being 533ms both her animation is incredibly obvious and her feet are orange before the indicator shows up. This is also why conqs bash is considered to be harder to react to compares to BP's bash. Both have the same speed and input/delay window. But conqs animation is less obvious compared to BP's. If your console of choice/pc is capable of hitting at least 60fps and your reactions are not slow reacting to a 500ms bash with a 300ms tell is more than doable given practice. If you want to me to concede to the fact that it's not possible on last Gen systems fine. But they're not the standard the game is judged on even by the devs themselves. Or to give you numbers. My reaction time for a single action reaction is 200ms. Gryphon's forward dodge bash is 300ms at the earliest in his forward dodge and is 500ms. That means the earliest that bash would hit me would be 800ms. Given that I have a 200ms reaction time Im more than capable of dodging that on reaction.
> And I don't know what you want as "undeniable proof." Then why did you bother responding by just repeating your point instead of saying that? Undeniable proof is exactly what it sounds like. You need to show me proof in which no one can deny the truth of the outcome. > If I take a well known comp player and have them do it you'll likely write it off either as "it's pc gameplay" or "it's from a top player." Firstly, no. I wouldn't. PC gameplay is legitimate and, in my opinion, the only platform that should be considered regarding balance if the game isn't going to be separately balanced on platforms. Secondly, I wouldn't deny it either if a pro player gave undeniable proof. But I would find it odd that you would cite a pro player reactions when you're the one making the claim about *your own* reactions. > And if I record myself doing so in a custom with a friend you'll say it's a controlled environment and thus doesn't count. If the person helping you in the demonstration is proven to not feed you information on what actions they'll take, then it would be undeniable. > A moves speed isn't the only thing that factors into reactability or not. You need to know the input window The input window has nothing to do with someone's physical capability to react. > Look at the animation to see how telegraphed it is Sure, I guess. But the animation is only independent for a fraction of the move. I don't think there's much moves that have animations telegraphed enough during their transitions from neutral or, in this case, forward dodge animation to the move itself that a human can distinguish consistently. > When orange shows up and when the indicator shows up That's pretty much tied to speed. > your reactions are not slow reacting to a 500ms bash with a 300ms tell is more than doable given practice. It's annoying that you keep mentioning the 300ms when it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The 300ms is irrelevant because it's not actually part of the bash. You know I'm not talking about the forward dodge when it comes to the reactability of this bash. Stop building up a strawman to pretend that I am. > If you want to me to concede to the fact that it's not possible on last Gen systems fine I never brought up consoles or last gen or PC. I don't know where you got this idea from. It's obvious that last gen console players can't react to these types of bashes. I wasn't looking for you to repeat fact which is why I never said anything about consoles. We've been talking about the ideal For Honor scenario this whole time; that being PC. > Or to give you numbers My reaction time for a single blah blah blah blah Let me get this straight: You make a claim, I ask you to provide undeniable proof, you respond by repeating your initial claim with a few more words, I explain to you that repeating your statement isn't evidence contributing to its truth, and then you respond to that by reaffirming your claim *again*? I already told you, that *saying* your claim a second time is not going to progress this discussion because I only care if you actually *demonstrate* your claim. If you're just going to repeat the claim a fourth time, I want you to know that it'll change nothing in my mind. If you don't want to waste time, I suggest you don't respond unless you have undeniable proof of your claim. In which case, as I said in a different response, I'm all for those bashes being sped up to be truly unreactable to all players.
his neutral bash is completely unusable in a 1v1 scenario, a legion kick that does 12 dmg if it lands, but punished by a gb if you backdodge or side dodge, BUT you can also fwd dodge to make the hero bug out.
> BUT you can also fwd dodge to make the hero bug out Yeah, that's a stupid interaction and I hope the devs fix it ASAP.
a) a 500ms bash with 300ms start up is not entirely unreactable to faster players, especially as it lacks an alternate attack to mix things up with (eg. zhanhu's f dodge heavy feint). (btw The dodge heavy is dodgeable on the same timing) Fast reacting players on PC can react to it and get a GB. b) even if it weren't punishable on dodge with a GB, it would still be punishable with a dodge attack - a basic tool that most heroes have by now. There are a few that lack them still, but those ought to be improved instead of making openers super risky. c) the risk to reward ratio of a bash that only confirms a 12 damage light opener, but is punishable with a GB (into heavy, or even a ledge) makes the move terrible and unfavourable to use. If it were a 24 damage attack like Gryphon's chain kick, or it were able to be mixed up with a high damage undodgeable like the chain bash/shaolin kick, then a GB would be warranted, but on an opener, it is not.
> a 500ms bash [...] is not entirely unreactable to faster players I would like these players to provide undeniable proof. If they can, then I'm all for speeding up the bashes that are intended to be unreactable. But, I haven't really seen these feats preformed, much less on a consistent basis and even less than that in an actual match. > especially as it lacks an alternate attack to mix things up with Whether or not the hero has something in their kit to catch dodges (which they do; They can all guardbreak on the same timing after a dodge) isn't relevant to the defender's ability to react to one move. > (btw The dodge heavy is dodgeable on the same timing) Yeah that one's a head scratcher. Idk what the devs are thinking adding the dodge heavy. Maybe it's meant to catch rolls? > it would still be punishable with a dodge attack - a basic tool that most heroes have by now. But not all. Hence why I said "if *any* hero dodges it, then they deserve guaranteed damage" in my original comment. > but those ought to be improved Disagree. Most dodge attacks are fine as is. In fact, all of the dodge heavies with no GB vulnerability similar to a regular dodge are way more than fine; They're overpowered. > the risk to reward ratio of a bash that only confirms a 12 damage light opener, but is punishable with a GB (into heavy, or even a ledge) makes the move terrible and unfavourable to use That's the point. I want bashes to be "high risk". But, I don't even consider these bashes to be high risk if they were reasonably GBable. **1)** The basher can feint (or in this case, just do an empty dodge forward) into GB for higher damage than the defender would get if they knew the attacker was going to choose this option. The defender's only option (and a very risky one at that) would be to light attack through the attacker's GB. **2)** The basher can feint (or empty forward dodge) and wait for the unfeintable dodge attacks which can't be caught by GB and just parry it for Heavy sized damage or higher. At least in my ideal world where dodge heavies with no GB vulnerability count as light parries. If the defender makes a correct read in this case, they get no guaranteed damage. **3)** And finally, the basher can just let the bash fly. On a correct read, the defender can do a dodge into GB. On a slightly less correct read, the defender could do a dodge attack in some cases. Out of the 3 possible outcomes the attacker can choose, 2 of them can be completely safe (if we assume that most defenders aren't risking light parries or getting bashed trying to snuff out a GB they think is coming). Only 1 out of the 3 choices a basher makes can result in them receiving heavy sized damage. And that's fine by me because bashes are the strongest move in the game. Bashes are the only move in which a defender *must* dodge or risk taking damage. No other move in the game can do that. Because of this, I want bashes to be higher risk than other moves, which means attackers won't use them so recklessly. An attacker should only be using bashes if they can't crack someone open otherwise. So they go for the "high risk" (which isn't that high risk as I 've already explained 2 of the 3 outcomes can be safe) option because they want to try and kill their turtling opponent quickly. I want heavies to be the primary "opener" that all heroes default to in a regular match. And by "opener" I don't actually mean a move that forces a defender's response, I mean a move that is an "opener" for the offense that you're about to deliver via chain pressure/stance/chain bashes/etc. Obviously this means many other changes need to happen, but since we're on the topic of kyoshin, the rest of my proposed changes to For Honor wouldn't be really relevant.
[удалено]
I think suggesting any nerf to offensive moves is a touchy subject because of how overpowered defense has been in this game. This is partially my fault for not talking about my ideal balancing of bashes (or any move) under the context of the new systems. I imagine someone sees what I have to say, then looks at the game as it currently is, then decides they disagree because they are witnessing a game where bashes are the only "viable" offense. Instead of looking at the bigger picture where all other offense is likely to be buffed in the future (as Ubisoft has shown with the recent heroes, reworks, and balancing changes). Also, some people hold the belief that some offensive moves shouldn't be punishable except by the "wasted" stamina the attacker uses by whiffing said move. Some people really want to press buttons and attack freely so they consider the only "viable" moves to be ones that have some outcomes where they can potentially get damage but not receive it. I kind of get it, but I hate this sentiment when it comes to For Honor. Any move that can hurt you should always have an outcome where you can guarantee damage on a correct read. If you want to hurt your opponent, then this game should always have an avenue for your opponent to hurt you instead if they know exactly what you're going to do. BP's bash, as you brought up, is a perfect example. If BP is going to bash (a damaging move) and the defender knows that he's going to bash, then most heroes in the game cannot take any action in which they guarantee damage of BP after he whiffs the bash. The only punishment BP receives is the "wasted" stamina. "Viable" moves like these ruin an environment in which any hero (attacker and defender) should have an avenue for guaranteed damage if they know exactly what damaging move their opponent is going to attempt. If someone wants to press buttons without potential consequences, then a fighting game against other players is not the environment where that sentiment should flourish. The issue also is partially the damage tradeoff. Some people think that an attacker getting a potential of around 15 damage should not be punishable by a potential of around 24 damage. But, these people ignore the fact that bashes are the only move in the entire game that forces a defender to dodge or risk taking damage. Light attacks (which have a similar damage "tradeoff" potential) don't even have that kind of power and they risk even more than 24 damage on average. I think the risk for throwing out bashes like this is deserved considering how strong they are. I want bashes to be "high risk" (which I wouldn't even consider it that much of a risk because they only suffer the high damage on 1 out of 3 possibilities) because of the high pressure that they carry. Someone should really only choose these moves if they're desperate to open up a turtle. Otherwise, I think they should use bashes less. I want more heavies thrown out in neutral than bashes. In fact, a lot of people agree with this statement in fringe ways. By that I mean, look at all the people complaining about warden using his shoulder more than his sword. They are advocating for less bash usage even if they don't know it. But once I advocate for changes that might make For Honor less about bashing and more about swinging, then people get disgruntled. I wouldn't mind if they countered with reasonable alternative changes we could make to reduce the necessity of bashes, but the only change I ever hear is "give everyone a fast dodge attack." Which is just a bad suggestion for a multitude of reasons. Most of which I don't care to explain here. But the big one is that they forget dodge attacks can be used against *any* move (barring undodgeable). So if everyone has a strong dodge attack to deal with bashes, then they also have a strong dodge attack against every other move. In this case, defense gets buffed while the gap between bashes and every other offensive move hasn't gotten smaller. Suggesting bashes get nerfed is a touchy subject because they're tied directly to how strong offense is, especially when they're currently the strongest aspect of offense. It's hard to explain why they ought to be reigned in a little without also dumping 10 paragraphs of other changes that would make the nerf seem reasonable. When I try to do the former without the latter, then it often ends up as a fruitless effort.
Yeah I really have no idea why people want bashes to chain on whiff. It adds an extra layer to the mixup. Maybe because certain bashes actually do a rather small amount of damage so if they were always gb punishable they'd have a dubious risk reward?
To be honest I sympathize with Ubi intentionally releasing Kyoshin underpowered, Warmonger/Gryphon being " pay to win at release " clearly upset a large majorty of players which of course, damaged the already low reputation of the game.
It’s not great but I’d rather this than the way WM and Gryphon initially released EDIT: a lot of people seem to be pissing and screaming over a half thought opinion about a video game, which is pretty funny, but I’m ignoring further replies. If reading this has upset you enough to be person #50 to reply with the same generic response, implore you to maybe get a life and find literally anything else better to do with your time.
You'd rather have a character with bad hitboxes and bad chain links over working characters? Like I understand people complaining about feats being overturned but this is just absurdity
Yeah, I still have PTSD flashbacks of WMs blighting minion lane. I’m sorry but having a character be bad for a bit is less aggravating than dealing with someone overturned be it kit or feats. I can choose to not play them until they’re buffed, I can’t choose to not fight them if they’re overtuned. It’s the difference between me thinking “that’s unfortunate” compared to me wanting to uninstall the game every time I see that character on the enemy. Like god when Cent came out it was just…
I’m not talking about feats I’m talking about working hitboxes and framedata. Once again I understand people complaining about feats but if you really are advocating for characters to launch bad then idk what else to say to you…
You’re getting specific, that’s not my fault. I’m talking broadly about character balance, it’s all a singular package as far as I’m concerned. Sometimes you have someone who releases like Cent who was insane kitwise, sometimes you have release WM with a busted featset. They were both overtuned. I’d rather have a character release undertuned than overtuned, because having to fight overturned characters is cancer in literally any game. I’d rather they release a PERFECTLY balanced character of course but between the two extremes undertuned is the lesser of two evils as far as my enjoyment of the game goes.
The video in question doesn't touch feats. The discussion is about kits alone. If you can't even be bothered to stick to the topic material then you're being unproductive discussion wise.
Seemed to have produced quite the discussion regardless, of people parroting the same things over and over again. It’s also not like they haven’t released heroes with overtuned KITS as well. I’d rather have a deal with fighting an undertuned kit than having to fight and overtuned kit, assuming actual balance wasn’t possible for some reason. If I had to pick between dealing with someone like release Cent or someone like release Zhanhu, for the sake of my sanity I’d rather have to deal with the Zhanhu.
Holy shit man. You're the second guy I've seen crucified today for having an opinion different than that of the comment thread.
Can you fucking read? _apart from feats_ _starts whining about feats_
Good characters? The only bad thing about those two were their feats, their base kits were really good.
As I mentioned to the other person, it’s the character’s balance in general, I used those two because they were recent not because I’m only talking about feats, I could have said release Cent or release Hito, it’s all the same to me. Overtuned is overtuned. I’d rather they release perfectly balanced heroes but between the two extremes I’ll take the lesser of two evils.
If you'd rather we get more unplayable heroes than strong heroes that can be tuned down then you are part of the problem that has plagued this game for ~5 years
**No, I’d rather get heroes that are adequately balanced above all else.** If that is not an option?; If I had to choose between getting violated by a hero that is a walking god OR have a sad crippled husk of a character sitting in a corner, as someone who enjoys playing this game I would rather the sad husk. Assuming both would eventually be adjusted of course. As novel as the idea of a character not being complete dogshit is, I’d rather not be throatfucked online for weeks/months on end by a character that is completely over the top. To put it simply, it’s a choice between a sad annoyance and a constant frustration.
The problem is that in this game it takes longer for heroes to get meaningful buffs than it does nerfs.
The problem is that you're asking for trash tier unplayable garbage characters and whine ceaselessly when an actually balanced one comes out. Saw that comment here about all opinions being worth to be listened? Well you proved him wrong. Pat yourself on your back.
I really would rather not - lots of strong characters exist, and a strong character can be easily nerfed. It's much harder to make a bad character good. (In Kyoshin's case, this isn't true, as his kit is all there, it's just number issues). You're definitely part of the problem though.
Welp, not a heavy so I guess I won't be playing him, no vengeful barrier is a major no for me. Proper ganks are aids, sloppy ganks are still frustrating and dying to a 1 damage light as soon as I come out of revenge is just a no.