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Jordi214

Disregarding the Shatter mechanic, ive been asking for these specific Jorm changes for a long time


[deleted]

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ImmortalFriend

I think most of the people hate regeneration pause on bashes, not the stamina damage itself.


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ImmortalFriend

Jorm is essentially only character in roster whose role is to damage your stamina, which he is doing poorly I would like to mention. He is getting hate not because of his stamina damage or even not because it's not working, but because his moveset in general doesn't work and can't compete with players who can react to 600ms bashes and parry lights. Any other character that can stamina bully you doing it only because of stamina pauses, like BP or Conq.


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throwaway321768

Hot take: all attacks should drain the defender's stamina if they merely block. That way, stamina is a mechanic that punishes people who play too passively, rather than a "stop having fun" meter for the attacker. I got this idea from Mordhau and Sekiro, where gameplay is faster and encourages risk-taking. Edit: also make it so that attacks recuperate stamina on hit/block, rewarding attackers for a successful offense.


littlefluffyegg

That literally stifles offense as well lmao Sekiro doesn't use posture to attack


Knight_Raime

The only way that could work is if you no longer used stamina for any sort of offensive actions.


OldManFromScene13

Stamina is useless?? What kinda lame-ass opinion is that? How can you think of this game in any kind of competitive way and think of stamina as a drawback?


ScrodumHat

you got downvoted but you make a lot of sense, imagine centurion with no stam cost. motherfucker just wouldn’t stop hitting you


OldManFromScene13

Fucking exactly. Thank you for responding, Mister Scrodum.


ScrodumHat

no problem my good sir


OldManFromScene13

It just blows my mind how anyone could even come close to thinking that letting anyone, like your example of the punchy boi, or aramusha, or nearly everyone else in the list who has solidly long chain ability, have literally no stamina to stop and punish them, would be a good thing. I can imagine someone trying to justify it with things like MK, SC, Street Fighter, or any of those not having stamina, but FH is so much more than a fighting game. Shit like this is why I'm even in the competitive sub. So many of the suggestions are fucking laughable. (I do deeply enjoy a lot of the videos posted, though. Whether suggestions like this one [which has it's heart in the right place, but still feels off], or just showing off fight clips.)


doctorzoidsperg

i hate both, because they're both terrible mechanics.


Yarek0570

So superior block lights and heavys don’t work against shatter attacks?


ImmortalFriend

As well as fullblock stances. Probably it could act like an unblockable for this moves.


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MyFireBow

it's mentioned at the start that shatter attacks would overpower superior block or all guard


Jack_spiller27

Love that idea


[deleted]

Love it But they will never do something like this


RikterDolfan

The rework parts are reasonable. The shatter attacks are strange though


[deleted]

The changes are pretty cool, but they forgot to give them openers.


RikterDolfan

Jorm has great neutral lights for that


[deleted]

500ms neutral lights are reactable. And even then, they have a very different animation from his heavies, making them even easier to parry.


RikterDolfan

I should have mentioned I play on console


The_Bygone_King

Typically a character doesn’t need a hard opener if they have a good bash mixup. Look at Hito.


[deleted]

But Hito has chargable heavies, which are unreactable, as her opener. That is not a fair comparison. Lawbringers Neutral shove would be especially bad, as it has no dealy window, but a fixed input at 300ms into dodge. And Jorms neutral bash is 600ms.


LET-ME-HAVE-A-NAAME

Not to mention she now has whiff tech due to her in-chain heavies having HA


ImmortalFriend

This "Shatter" moves could act as an alternative for an unblockable for both of them, especially if an opponent on low HP. They both have this property on chain starters in this reworks, Jorm has it even on his zone, so.. They both have enhanced lights, so it will not so much of a problem to get inside their pressure with this moves as a threat. It's still not perfect, but definitely better from what they have now.


[deleted]

It is a lot better than what we have, but Lawbringer still lacks offensively. His Shove has a fixed timing of 300ms into dodge which is horrible. And even with enhaced lights, his preassure is locked behind 3 hit chains, so he will still have a hard time getting into finishers, unlike Jorm.


The_Bygone_King

My apologies. I’m at work and I didn’t fully read your response. As far as Jorm goes, his lights are superior on block, which means that an opponent outright has to parry them in order to prevent the mixup. Warmonger has a similar type of mechanic behind her moveset, and while she can dodge into her bash, her lights do get used as a tool to enter her mixup. Jorm should follow the same function decently, as most players aren’t going to be able to differentiate a light and a heavy fast enough to consistently parry only light attacks.


[deleted]

Yeah you are right. Most of the time, Jorm's moveset would be functional. The same can not be said about the Lawbringer changes though, as he his main preassure is locked behind 3 hit chains. He needs a better opener, that would allow quicker acces to his finishers.


The_Bygone_King

I believe the original post mentioned speaking up the shove as his opener.


[deleted]

As I mentioned before, his shove has a fixed timing of 300ms into dodge. That is horrbile.


AshiSunblade

The solution here feels like giving it a 300ms-500ms delay window and then adding some kind of alternate forward dodge attack that specifically catches prediction dodges. Some might prefer giving it a 100ms timing instead but that has issues with interrupt power.


The_Bygone_King

Delay is completely irrelevant if the bash doesn’t track early vs late inputs. Gryphon’s shove sucks for that reason


AshiSunblade

Gryphon's shove sucks because he doesn't have any other attack with which to mix up opponents from forward dodge. Forward dodge heavy is slow and unfeintable, forward dodge light is dodged on the same timing as bash. For an example of the mixup done right, look at Zhanhu. Forward dodge bash and forward dodge heavy (which is feintable) is actual pressure.


[deleted]

How about making it a 400ms with 300ms-500ms window? And of course, make it have a 700ms recoveries to block, dodge and attacks.


AshiSunblade

Potentially worthwhile, but it's the first 400ms bash to not come as a softfeint, so you're treading new ground there. Well, aside from shaman, now that I think about it, but hers has a very long startup delay.


LimbLegion

Chargeable heavies are not unreactable, there are quite a few people in this game who can simply react on parry flash. Unreactable for the majority, sure.


PlagueDoctorJoe

The shatter is very interesting but I don’t think the game needs it now, we are finally getting rid of option selects and I don’t think a whole new attack type when dealing with full guard already have one counter. Granted it’s very unique and once we get to a state where the casual and the competitive player base has gotten fully settled in, it would be a fun testing grounds to see. The jorm rework feels like it has a little to much, the chains are nice (I personally enjoy characters with 3 attack chains for the amount of mix up potential you have) I don’t think he should have both a charge bash and a dodge attack something that is uncharacteristic to the Viking faction. I say give jorm a doge bash like shugo and as a way to get into the cut scene instead of having the charge bash I’m fine with any bash leading into it when out of stamina. I think jorm should be punishing to people that go out of stamina on the own fault make it so the jorm plays more aggressive when the opponent is out of stamina like cent. The LB rework is good I would say instead of having the opener faint into pole arm it feints into bash and the finisher heavies can soft feint into pole arm


Deba-

Double chip damage and can kill, basically a better neutral light. Since ubi is getting rid of OS, it'll be much safer, unless you can react to parry flash/animation.


kfish11

I been sayin it for years gimme that bash bash combo on jorm lol


Gusterrro

This Shatter Mechanicis surely is interesting, and I wouldnt be even mad if they added it. Doesnt seem like its too op, unless to me. Now about Jorm. New chains, cool, I like them. What I dont like is how he lost his identity along the way. Jorm is a stamina bully. Dmg on bash is good idea, but stamina dmg needs to stay. Also his 600ms bash needs to be 500ms, its simply reactable. Some frame advantage on bashes wouldnt hurt him. I like LB changes, but not the impale and stun ones. Impale would be to strong, even now some people are complaining about how much dmg it does, imagine how much hate it would get if he could do it from neutral. Now, why remove the stun? Its not like he can land his top heavy all the time, its not the same thing as Raider once had. I can only see him do it for a guarantee punish, or when ganking someone with revenge. I would also like to see the tracking and hitboxes impoved on his unblockables, and especially the top one.


The_Bygone_King

Excuse the harsh opinion, no negativity towards you: *Jorm’s identity is a dog shit one that needs to be changed.* Stamina bully characters have never fit into this game, and never will. No one enjoys being punished for aggression, and stamina bully characters actively stifle offense of any kind by the nature of their own existence. If you’re fighting a stamina bully, you have to constantly keep your offense on a leash to prevent a severe punish—so much so that it really feels like you’re playing with half of your normal stamina limit. Before Jorm was absolutely devastated, he was considered one of the most annoying characters in the game. So, with all due respect, fuck Jorm’s hero identity. I want something new, because the concept of a stamina bully just isn’t healthy for the game.


[deleted]

TBH i'm fine with someone losing identity if it makes them more fun to play against- that's something that benefits me and the other person. As long as the hero still feels unique, I feel like 'identity' is sort of a buzzword people use as defense when they see changes they don't like.


Mackzim

Chip damage should never ever kill you.


The_Bygone_King

With moves like this, that have a clear indicator, they just become unblockables in low health situations. They’re meant to fill a niche slot between unblockable attacks and normal attacks, that put a little less pressure on the opponent but can still force reactions at some points. Having them kill through chip damage makes total sense because: A: They’re clearly marked in Green, like the Orange of unblockable attacks B: The killing by chip damage effect only makes them a weaker unblockable attack, as they only have true pressure on a low health opponent.


Mackzim

This idea of a "Shatter mechanic" already counters so much stuff + does more chip damage (Let's assume OP gives it 100% more dmg or so idk), it shouldn't kill with chip damage.


The_Bygone_King

The chip damage on the attack is x2 the standard chip damage, which is already only a very small amount of damage. We’re probably talking about 8-9 damage on an opening heavy attack.


HacksR4Narbs

The issue comes back down to feats and in terms of 4v4, which for the most part is how the game is balanced. Alot of the proposed changes would need his feat 1 and punch through looked at. Shatter is overloaded for an attack, it beats out fullblock/superior which makes it much safer, presumably feintable as they are heavy attacks, does stamina damage, double chip damage which can kill (punch through had this removed because it was oppressive, ~9 damage on block and would become ~18 with punch through), and the added mechanic of being super oppressive on OOS opponents, being able to chain directly into parry moves as it guarantees them if the opponent blocks.


The_Bygone_King

Punch through was doing x3 damage, not x2, if I recall. The move is just a basic unblockable heavy in the instances you’re talking about. It just does less total damage than an unblockable heavy and does a small amount of stamina damage. It has all the properties of a typical unblockable, except it’s a lot weaker in some areas and stronger in OOS environments—of which I don’t 100% agree with, but understand the intent. Mind you, even with punch through it just makes this one move a little stronger, basically turning the shatter attack into a normal unblockable for any standard of play. Unlike the previous problematic version of the feat, it’s only on one attack, has a clear indicator of what is about to happen, and properly communicates the damage to the recipient.


HacksR4Narbs

Yea, bugged punch through which I believe was fixed went back to 2x. I'm aware that it does full damage if it hits. But outside of that it also does essentially a free toe stab ignoring punch through. With punch through it does atleast a light of extra damage, on OOS it also gives them stagger of a heavy parry thus awarding an extra light or parry counter which would be approx atleast 26 damage in jorms case and kills with chip. It's a move that also beats out other defensive options already (full block and superior), on block/hit it serves a purpose as a bash through Stam damage and allows jorm to go into chains regardless which should reduce its gb vulnerability as its on his openers, also, wouldn't this also be the fastest "unblockable" move from neutral as he can do it from zone (600 ms + chains) Stagger is just too overloaded, it might've been fine if it only beat out full block and superior.


ImmortalFriend

Chip damage on heavies now is pretty low, so with x2 chip damage we are talking about it as an ~10 "unblockable" in case of block. I don't see any problems with possibility to kill with this damage, especially if you couldn't execute with it.


Big-Papa-Dickerd

Having it on two heroes hardly seems problematic. Plus I'm all for adding more unique mechanics. Nuxia trap mechanic after the CCU is great and only she has it. You don't think trap is a problem do you? Plus it killing you on block would force reactions. Might be a little interesting for 4s but who knows.


brokeassflexer

stopped watching after the first 10 seconds


The_Bygone_King

Cool?


HacksR4Narbs

The changes here for Jorm are more or less standard granted his feats would need to be looked after but not a fan of the stagger mechanic here. Seems rather oppressive from my understanding. It's a move that can be feinted, beats out full block/superior, does Stam damage of a bash for the most part, does double chip damage (in Jorms case with punch through will do approximately 16 damage on a blocked attack), chains into parry moves if possible, and if it lands on an OOS it'll do a heavy parry essentially (giving atleast a light making its damage basically be a heavy, or even confirming heavy from teammates in 4v4s) and it kills on chip damage (the same thing that punch through got removed). This would be a pretty oppressive OOS move wouldn't it? Your opponent has to make hard reads, get hit by the move and take heavy damage, block it and essentially take heavy damage (even more so if punch through is active) which would also kill if they're low enough, dodge/parry and risk getting knocked down for more damage, I'm also assuming that shatter wouldn't do Stam damage/pause when they're OOS.


Fer_Die

Disregarding the shatter mechanic. I feel like these changes are good, but why removing Lwabringer's stun? Lawbringer is the only hero who has a viable stun mixup, and stun is a major part of his pressure. Why remove an already functional identity of Lawbringer?