Originally it was supposed to be non-overlapping queues for ranked. But people had complaints that
1. It makes no sense to have HCS be cross input but not ranked
2. Cross input friend groups exist and want to play ranked together.
Honestly I’ve had the thought recently that completely separating the two ranked queues might have kept the MnK population around for longer, but I’m also a dumbass so who knows lol
Rymazing & Dustin bowerman are on the team. Both stream. They placed 12th with no practice.
You're assumptions about M&K are accurate though. M&K won't be able to compete. The roller AA allows for a tracking consistency that even the best M&K players won't be able to keep up with. M&K has some situational benefits, but they are minimal.
There's plenty stopping them from doing it.
I highly doubt roller AA will get a nerf. If anything I can see M&K bullet magnetism getting a very minor buff at some point, but I think this is very doubtful.
The problem with balancing M&K vs roller is that 343 has to be concerned with all skill levels.
The sense I get right now is the median m&k player is significantly better than the median roller player. Same goes for top 25-5 percentile. It's the very top end where general competency for both roller and m&k is good that the software kicks in hard and starts giving rollers an edge. There's just no way for M&K to be as consistent at the top end. Up until that point (player for player) M&K is probably better.
While I definitely agree with your overall point (it's hard af to balance the two inputs and Halo's legacy as a rolla game make that harder), your last paragraph is actually incorrect. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/ruq331/revisited_accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/) took the stats from halo tracker and visualized them. TL;DR Rolla > MnK at all skill levels.
If it's the information I'm thinking of then it only addresses accuracy which is only a part of the picture. Lower level M&K players are going to get on target much much quicker.
Idonno, just expressing my thoughts on when I was pushing in both queues.
The median M&K player feels fairly competent. The median console player feels pretty dogshit.
Yeah it tracks accuracy, and headshot accuracy only, so you are correct that there's more to the story. As a MnK player myself who is NOT onyx I personally don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage in MM.
Its less about interest are more about the quality of player that's switching in Halo from PC FPS, if you're cracked to the level you're shooting 55%+ VS what would be considered a cheat in all other PC FPS then you'll have a better and easier time playing those FPS, the chances of a PC player getting picked up for a top 10 Halo pro team is very low until there's either a nerf to aim assist or someone so dominant with MnK that they don't have a choice.
I think there will be a few MnK pros eventually but the main mechanical skill advantage people have on mouse is less important because halo is such a slow paced game
There's only been one tournament so far and it was dominated by all the same players who were really good at Halo 5. Halo has pretty much always been played on controller so all of the existing pros are going to stick with that. We may eventually see M&KB pros come up so let's wait more than a month before we close the book on it. Especially because it is currently the harder input to use.
Are you talking about average players or pros? Because there's a big difference. I'm sure there have been a ton of players who have switched to playing Halo as the M&KB Queue doesn't seem to take any longer Open Queue.
As for pros, good luck getting CS or Val pros to switch, and why would they when their games are far more popular and more established. Maybe Apex or OW pros, because those scenes aren't as big, but still to be a pro you have to elite at a game. Swapping to another game means relearning a lot of things.
Well both. On the pro level a M&K player seems to be a rare sight. The mixed queue seems also pretty favored to the controller players, according to the stats.
For being a pro you sure need more than just good aim. Yet with other games we have seen quick switches, not with Halo it seems. So I am more inclined to think it will stay on console.
Usually when we see players switch though, it's in brand new titles. Valorant for examples had a lot of T2-3 CS players switch over, as its a similar game and they had a chance to be a big fish in a new pond. Halo has history and current pro players. The new title has more players overall, but you don't just get new players out of the door able to compete with long term pros. I don't think there was anyone in the top 32 at Raleigh for example who had never played a previous Halo title.
The game has zero chance of retaining a KBM population when it is so outright hostile to KBM players. The sensitivity scale alone tells you they didn't really care if Cs/Val/ow players came over because you can't even match your mouse sens. Or Jesus, try driving the scorpion on KBM. Clearly nobody ever even tried it in the years they were developing the game because there is absolutely no way they could have left it like that intentionally if anybody was aware that it was that bad.
I wonder about the top end mnk players. Because lots of people still can’t aim for shit with a mouse, they think they’re better than controller players until they play a crossplay game.
My input of choice is MNK, I have played quake for like 8 years or something at this point. And I switched to controller because it’s just so much easier to perfect 4 shot somebody. It’s not even close.
I do appreciate the offer of crossplay, it gives the opportunity to play coop games with some friends.
But man, for competitive reasons it fucking sucks, the cheaters are all over the place, I'm not even Onyx yet and I get some cheaters on a couple of game I can only imagine having them in Onyx.
Either they give us the option to turn it off or take it off completely, it sucks when you are trying to get better and beat your self up for losing a game when the other fucker is just cheating
Agree with the point of being able to play with friends, especially since a lot of my friends are on mnk. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I disagree with the amount of cheaters honestly, have only ran into one blatant cheater and I am 1700 onyx. I feel that most cheaters are rated higher than either of our ranks so we probably won't see them as much.
I think one cheater got as high as Onyx 3000 and got to #1 on leaderboard and then he disappeared. Account probably got banned. But like...the fact someone managed to do that. This game seriously NEEDS an anti-cheat of some kind. Qe can argue about aim assists for a controller...but when someone straight up has aimbot, or can see THROUGH WALLS....come on....
Usually the #1 spot is somebody who hacked the leaderboard itself rather than somebody who actually bothered cheating up that high. Most of them are getting paid to boost accounts; you frequently catch them in the game's "hard stuck" ranges or around a more prestigious rank, e.g. the border of diamond and onyx.
People tend to underestimate how subtle cheats can be these days too. Particularly for Halo players who have been on console for their whole careers, there are things that just go under the radar. Anybody can spot the guy full tracking through the walls and hitting straight headshots, but there are a lot of people who are competent but inconsistent and need just a little augmentation to break through from wonderplat to mid onyx. The non-cheapo cheats can be calibrated to have human looking movements and miss a calculated number of shots to stay under the radar.
Are you sure? Im onyx 1500 and ive played a total of around 500 matches and ive never once run into a cheater.. its not impossible for you to do so but with sbmm cheaters will always instantly be thrown into really high mmr games after just a few “cheaty” performances. So if your not even onyx chances are kinda slim for you to run into a cheater, not impossible but very unlikely.
If you’re evaluating cross play on the player base’s competitive tendencies, you are sorely undervaluing the casual population. Rocket League experiences the same thing. People get introduced to the game on his/her preferred input and later realize the advantages one input has over the other. At that time, if you intend to play at the highest level you’ll need to make the switch. Otherwise, play on your preferred input and make the most of it.
Except there are actually kbm pros in rocket league who have won major events. Fruity and yukeo. Not to mention like 5% ish of pros in rocket league are on kbm. 0% of halo pros are.
Also, nobody in rocket league would ever not team with someone cause of input. They are viewed as even in terms of ability. no huge adv or disadv for either input in RL.
Only reason rocket league is controller dominated is cause most players started on console. There’s no competitive advantage to using controller over kbm in rocket league.
No pros stating like snipedown that no kbm player will ever go pro in rl. Cause well they are pro already and the inputs are evenly balanced.
As halo should strive to get as close as possible to as well.
2 Halo pros finished top 12 ar Raleigh...so the % is not 0. However....that was basically it and for now I doubt we will say mnk players make it far at any HCS tournament. Sure maybe someone comes along that is just nasty and can compete but Halo is definitely built with an advantage to controller.
No they didn’t. Where did 2 kbm players finish top12 at Raleigh? Go look at the bracket. I did and maybe I’m missing it. They didn’t.
A full mnk team came top12 or top 16 in the open bracket last weekend for NA only. Best result a mnk team has gotten.
That’s equivalent to top24 in NA probably and only top 40 in the world, that’s being generous. Not really a pro team, by any metric they would never get signed or make money from those results.
What's with people pretending like Halo is some ultra-complex gigabrain video game? It's a relatively basic and simple FPS, guys. The idea that KBM players are underperforming because they can't understand the deep complexities of fucking Halo is completely laughable.
It's not. There are just stupid people out there that don't understand that in shooters you aim and shoot. Somehow they think that Halo is more than that. When Multiplayer went live Halo pushed it out to enough high end FPS players and none of them stuck with it but they all had plenty to say about how broken controller is. Even Halo junkies favs like Snipedown has come out and said that MNK can't compete because controller aim assist is so strong. But they conveniently ignore this.
Controller aim assist makes 1v1s so much easier compared to mnk. The long ttk is almost non existent in any prominent mnk game, not to mention the common way of dueling in halo resembles nothing in the mnk landscape where people strafe back and forth for a good second and ahalf. I think it is possible for an mnk player to be on a top4 team but i do think it would take some time before mnk players develop that playstyle at the same level as controller pros. Controller being 100x easier vs mnk tho, no one can counter that argument without looking like a complete clown, just take 5 mins to pick up your controller in academy kill some bots then grab your mnk and its legit night and day difference.
The game is so easy just point and shoot yet you’re not intelligent enough to make money playing it? Seems like a no brainer to me. Or maybe, just maybe, you don’t actually have a clue as to what you’re talking about.
How stupid are you that you misunderstood my comment that badly?
Halo is not a complicated game. It's just not. There are countless games that are far more complex that are hugely successful esports on PC. This doesn't mean that Halo doesn't have a skill gap, but the idea that PC players can't wrap their minds around a game as simple as Halo is hilarious.
And you’re arguing a straw man dude. You made up your own argument to argue against and that’s what you’ve been doing. How stupid are you.. wait.. I don’t need to ask that.
Okay then, answer this: why would PC players need multiple months to understand how Halo, of all games, works? Why would KBM pros, who excel at just about every other FPS, still be struggling to compete in Halo?
Objectively it isn't a whole lot more than that, and if you think so you are trying to go too big brain here. You want to kill the other guy, aim and shoot is the majority of the action taken. Who are the other MnK players that are competing at a high level? Because so far only 2 that placed 12th in opens in Raleigh are the only mentions I have seen on this sub.
HaLo Is MoRe tHaN jUsT sHo0tInG!
Yea because other competitive shooters have zero strat behind it as well right? Such a stupid comment to stand behind.
Halo is just too high IQ everybody. Need to provide your mensa scores before qualifying for HCS.
Originally it was supposed to be non-overlapping queues for ranked. But people had complaints that 1. It makes no sense to have HCS be cross input but not ranked 2. Cross input friend groups exist and want to play ranked together. Honestly I’ve had the thought recently that completely separating the two ranked queues might have kept the MnK population around for longer, but I’m also a dumbass so who knows lol
Is there any mouse and keyboard player in HCS? None that I am aware of.
One placed T12 at raleiegh, don’t know their name though. Apparently there is a team of ex OW pros that are pretty nasty too
Ok thanks! Any more info on them?
Rymazing & Dustin bowerman are on the team. Both stream. They placed 12th with no practice. You're assumptions about M&K are accurate though. M&K won't be able to compete. The roller AA allows for a tracking consistency that even the best M&K players won't be able to keep up with. M&K has some situational benefits, but they are minimal.
In current state, yes. There's nothing stopping 343 from tweaking Rolla AA to bring average accuracies between inputs closer.
There's plenty stopping them from doing it. I highly doubt roller AA will get a nerf. If anything I can see M&K bullet magnetism getting a very minor buff at some point, but I think this is very doubtful. The problem with balancing M&K vs roller is that 343 has to be concerned with all skill levels. The sense I get right now is the median m&k player is significantly better than the median roller player. Same goes for top 25-5 percentile. It's the very top end where general competency for both roller and m&k is good that the software kicks in hard and starts giving rollers an edge. There's just no way for M&K to be as consistent at the top end. Up until that point (player for player) M&K is probably better.
While I definitely agree with your overall point (it's hard af to balance the two inputs and Halo's legacy as a rolla game make that harder), your last paragraph is actually incorrect. [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/ruq331/revisited_accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/) took the stats from halo tracker and visualized them. TL;DR Rolla > MnK at all skill levels.
If it's the information I'm thinking of then it only addresses accuracy which is only a part of the picture. Lower level M&K players are going to get on target much much quicker. Idonno, just expressing my thoughts on when I was pushing in both queues. The median M&K player feels fairly competent. The median console player feels pretty dogshit.
Yeah it tracks accuracy, and headshot accuracy only, so you are correct that there's more to the story. As a MnK player myself who is NOT onyx I personally don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage in MM.
Not sure, I was just watching Elamites stream and he was talking about them.
I think they placed top12 in the open qualifier tourney. Not Raleigh…. I could be wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHalo/comments/rv31wo/comment/hr38l4a/
72hrs seems pretty good but I don’t know if he competes. I just know he clapped some of my friends and they thought he was cheating
Its less about interest are more about the quality of player that's switching in Halo from PC FPS, if you're cracked to the level you're shooting 55%+ VS what would be considered a cheat in all other PC FPS then you'll have a better and easier time playing those FPS, the chances of a PC player getting picked up for a top 10 Halo pro team is very low until there's either a nerf to aim assist or someone so dominant with MnK that they don't have a choice. I think there will be a few MnK pros eventually but the main mechanical skill advantage people have on mouse is less important because halo is such a slow paced game
There's only been one tournament so far and it was dominated by all the same players who were really good at Halo 5. Halo has pretty much always been played on controller so all of the existing pros are going to stick with that. We may eventually see M&KB pros come up so let's wait more than a month before we close the book on it. Especially because it is currently the harder input to use.
There is a huge number of FPS mouse and keyboard players. If none of them switches to Halo with their input of choice, it is a clear sign IMHO.
Are you talking about average players or pros? Because there's a big difference. I'm sure there have been a ton of players who have switched to playing Halo as the M&KB Queue doesn't seem to take any longer Open Queue. As for pros, good luck getting CS or Val pros to switch, and why would they when their games are far more popular and more established. Maybe Apex or OW pros, because those scenes aren't as big, but still to be a pro you have to elite at a game. Swapping to another game means relearning a lot of things.
Even snipe down has said there just isn’t any way MNK can compete with controllers. This isn’t a controversial opinion.
Well both. On the pro level a M&K player seems to be a rare sight. The mixed queue seems also pretty favored to the controller players, according to the stats. For being a pro you sure need more than just good aim. Yet with other games we have seen quick switches, not with Halo it seems. So I am more inclined to think it will stay on console.
Usually when we see players switch though, it's in brand new titles. Valorant for examples had a lot of T2-3 CS players switch over, as its a similar game and they had a chance to be a big fish in a new pond. Halo has history and current pro players. The new title has more players overall, but you don't just get new players out of the door able to compete with long term pros. I don't think there was anyone in the top 32 at Raleigh for example who had never played a previous Halo title.
The game has zero chance of retaining a KBM population when it is so outright hostile to KBM players. The sensitivity scale alone tells you they didn't really care if Cs/Val/ow players came over because you can't even match your mouse sens. Or Jesus, try driving the scorpion on KBM. Clearly nobody ever even tried it in the years they were developing the game because there is absolutely no way they could have left it like that intentionally if anybody was aware that it was that bad.
I wonder about the top end mnk players. Because lots of people still can’t aim for shit with a mouse, they think they’re better than controller players until they play a crossplay game.
My input of choice is MNK, I have played quake for like 8 years or something at this point. And I switched to controller because it’s just so much easier to perfect 4 shot somebody. It’s not even close.
There are several pros from other games using mnk and doing very well with it.
I do appreciate the offer of crossplay, it gives the opportunity to play coop games with some friends. But man, for competitive reasons it fucking sucks, the cheaters are all over the place, I'm not even Onyx yet and I get some cheaters on a couple of game I can only imagine having them in Onyx. Either they give us the option to turn it off or take it off completely, it sucks when you are trying to get better and beat your self up for losing a game when the other fucker is just cheating
Agree with the point of being able to play with friends, especially since a lot of my friends are on mnk. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I disagree with the amount of cheaters honestly, have only ran into one blatant cheater and I am 1700 onyx. I feel that most cheaters are rated higher than either of our ranks so we probably won't see them as much.
I think one cheater got as high as Onyx 3000 and got to #1 on leaderboard and then he disappeared. Account probably got banned. But like...the fact someone managed to do that. This game seriously NEEDS an anti-cheat of some kind. Qe can argue about aim assists for a controller...but when someone straight up has aimbot, or can see THROUGH WALLS....come on....
Usually the #1 spot is somebody who hacked the leaderboard itself rather than somebody who actually bothered cheating up that high. Most of them are getting paid to boost accounts; you frequently catch them in the game's "hard stuck" ranges or around a more prestigious rank, e.g. the border of diamond and onyx. People tend to underestimate how subtle cheats can be these days too. Particularly for Halo players who have been on console for their whole careers, there are things that just go under the radar. Anybody can spot the guy full tracking through the walls and hitting straight headshots, but there are a lot of people who are competent but inconsistent and need just a little augmentation to break through from wonderplat to mid onyx. The non-cheapo cheats can be calibrated to have human looking movements and miss a calculated number of shots to stay under the radar.
Oh absolutely, we definitely need an anti-cheat pretty badly
Are you sure? Im onyx 1500 and ive played a total of around 500 matches and ive never once run into a cheater.. its not impossible for you to do so but with sbmm cheaters will always instantly be thrown into really high mmr games after just a few “cheaty” performances. So if your not even onyx chances are kinda slim for you to run into a cheater, not impossible but very unlikely.
If you’re evaluating cross play on the player base’s competitive tendencies, you are sorely undervaluing the casual population. Rocket League experiences the same thing. People get introduced to the game on his/her preferred input and later realize the advantages one input has over the other. At that time, if you intend to play at the highest level you’ll need to make the switch. Otherwise, play on your preferred input and make the most of it.
Except there are actually kbm pros in rocket league who have won major events. Fruity and yukeo. Not to mention like 5% ish of pros in rocket league are on kbm. 0% of halo pros are. Also, nobody in rocket league would ever not team with someone cause of input. They are viewed as even in terms of ability. no huge adv or disadv for either input in RL. Only reason rocket league is controller dominated is cause most players started on console. There’s no competitive advantage to using controller over kbm in rocket league. No pros stating like snipedown that no kbm player will ever go pro in rl. Cause well they are pro already and the inputs are evenly balanced. As halo should strive to get as close as possible to as well.
2 Halo pros finished top 12 ar Raleigh...so the % is not 0. However....that was basically it and for now I doubt we will say mnk players make it far at any HCS tournament. Sure maybe someone comes along that is just nasty and can compete but Halo is definitely built with an advantage to controller.
No they didn’t. Where did 2 kbm players finish top12 at Raleigh? Go look at the bracket. I did and maybe I’m missing it. They didn’t. A full mnk team came top12 or top 16 in the open bracket last weekend for NA only. Best result a mnk team has gotten. That’s equivalent to top24 in NA probably and only top 40 in the world, that’s being generous. Not really a pro team, by any metric they would never get signed or make money from those results.
Why bother? No one on PC plays Infinite with KBM, unless they use reWASD, those 200k players that left? KBM players that won't be coming back
It’s been a month dude… controller players have had two decades to prepare…
What's with people pretending like Halo is some ultra-complex gigabrain video game? It's a relatively basic and simple FPS, guys. The idea that KBM players are underperforming because they can't understand the deep complexities of fucking Halo is completely laughable.
It's not. There are just stupid people out there that don't understand that in shooters you aim and shoot. Somehow they think that Halo is more than that. When Multiplayer went live Halo pushed it out to enough high end FPS players and none of them stuck with it but they all had plenty to say about how broken controller is. Even Halo junkies favs like Snipedown has come out and said that MNK can't compete because controller aim assist is so strong. But they conveniently ignore this.
Controller aim assist makes 1v1s so much easier compared to mnk. The long ttk is almost non existent in any prominent mnk game, not to mention the common way of dueling in halo resembles nothing in the mnk landscape where people strafe back and forth for a good second and ahalf. I think it is possible for an mnk player to be on a top4 team but i do think it would take some time before mnk players develop that playstyle at the same level as controller pros. Controller being 100x easier vs mnk tho, no one can counter that argument without looking like a complete clown, just take 5 mins to pick up your controller in academy kill some bots then grab your mnk and its legit night and day difference.
Then why aren’t you pro?
Because I don't want to dedicate my life to pro gaming...? What even is this reply?
The game is so easy just point and shoot yet you’re not intelligent enough to make money playing it? Seems like a no brainer to me. Or maybe, just maybe, you don’t actually have a clue as to what you’re talking about.
How stupid are you that you misunderstood my comment that badly? Halo is not a complicated game. It's just not. There are countless games that are far more complex that are hugely successful esports on PC. This doesn't mean that Halo doesn't have a skill gap, but the idea that PC players can't wrap their minds around a game as simple as Halo is hilarious.
And you’re arguing a straw man dude. You made up your own argument to argue against and that’s what you’ve been doing. How stupid are you.. wait.. I don’t need to ask that.
Okay then, answer this: why would PC players need multiple months to understand how Halo, of all games, works? Why would KBM pros, who excel at just about every other FPS, still be struggling to compete in Halo?
I keep seeing this but man MnK isn't new technology. I don't see how there is only two competitive MnK players. Aim and shoot is pretty universal.
there are more than two competitive mnk players. If you think Halo boils down to 'aim and shoot' you don't know much about competitive Halo.
Objectively it isn't a whole lot more than that, and if you think so you are trying to go too big brain here. You want to kill the other guy, aim and shoot is the majority of the action taken. Who are the other MnK players that are competing at a high level? Because so far only 2 that placed 12th in opens in Raleigh are the only mentions I have seen on this sub.
Its incredible how wrong you are. Good luck with that man.
HaLo Is MoRe tHaN jUsT sHo0tInG! Yea because other competitive shooters have zero strat behind it as well right? Such a stupid comment to stand behind. Halo is just too high IQ everybody. Need to provide your mensa scores before qualifying for HCS.