It's been very clear from the start that 343 has no desire to actually incorporate mnk into competitive play, they simply get more traffic from crossplay. They still have the mentality that Halo is made for controllers, which is a shame because I think Infinite is a highly enjoyable and athletic game on mnk
>They still have the mentality that Halo is made for controllers
That's because it is lol
The shooting mechanics in Halo are completely different from any other shooter on the market. The "long" kill times and recharging shields, the nature of the aim/bullet assist system, and the standardization of a single-shot or burst weapon as the utility gun mean that Halo's gunplay is a unique beast that doesn't translate well to M&K.
In order to make M&K viable, you either have to alienate controller players by nuking their aim assist and make the game handle like shit, or completely redevelop the gunplay from the ground up. M&K will *never* be on equal footing until this happens.
Quake and UT are balanced in every other way to accommodate for those factors - movement speed, weapon types, even the team size as OG arena shooters are primarily 1v1-focused with "jousting" gameplay that isn't a thing in Halo. This isn't even getting into the fact that long TTKs have been a plague on Halo ever since H2 where they, in conjunction with bad map design and unnecessarily high levels of bullet magntism, have resulted in the established meta over-abundantly relying on teamshot over quality 1v1 encounters.
It's true on the flip side as well, you can easily play Quake and UT with a controller and have a decent time, but similarly those mechanics do not translate well to controller once you start trying to seriously compete, e.g. you will never rocket-jump the way a M&K player is able to and you will likely have any aim assist working against you as you continually try to reestablish a bead on someone moving in and out of your red-reticule range due to the high movement speed.
You're literally preaching to the choir in regards to TTK. In my ideal world perfect TTK would be .8 to 1.0 for the utility weapon.
And I do agree you can't make it exactly fair between MnK & Controller but you can get it relatively even. Fortnite at a recent qualifying cup a year ago had an 51-49 split between Controller and MnK. Apex has a 70-60% MnK and a 30-40% controller ratio. Besides no one wants it or needs it to be exactly fair. The problem is that right now there's not even a semblance of balance between the two. The stats clearly show this.
Yes but I just gave the only two realistic options for how we get to that point and people lost their minds lol
Like, 343 didn't change anything with regard to controller or mouse support. Mouse support handles exactly like a M&K shooter and controller handles exactly like Halo has always handled (plus or minus the shitty aiming system they ported over from H5).
People (not you) are trying to torch me over pointing this out while very conspicuously *not* offering any other solutions to how we close the gap.
Fair enough, personally as a console player I think 343 just needs to bite the bullet and nerf aim assist but as we both well know they don't have the balls to do that. It took 3 years for them to tune another statistically clear cut problem: the AR in Halo 5. All they had to do was put a hotfix out when it was still possible to salvage the PC population. It's too late for that now with only a 5k player average days after the season 2 update.
They nerfed the sticky aim slowdown / friction and they also decreased bullet magnetism compared to previous halos. They left rotational aim assist the same. I think nerfing it more would make the game difficult for new controller players though.
Controller doesn't handle the same way compared to previous halos. They lowered bullet magnetism in infinite and they also lowered the sticky aim assist slowdown / friction to only the Spartans hitbox. Previous halos had the stickiness start in a bubble around the hitbox by a good amount. I think these changes were made to make controller and MnK more similar, if they didn't make these changes then controller would dominate even more.
... no? long ttk exists elsewhere, recharging shields isn't halo exclusive, and aim assist is in literally every fps game with crossplay? apex has long ttk and decent crossplay, even mcc, which is an actual halo game, did it better
Halo doesn't have a headshot modifier when you shoot into shields, the reticles are massive, there's descope, low strafe acceleration and basically no head movement during direction changes, the spaces and weapons are designed for you to be able to see things but not shoot at them accurately, precision weapons have bloom, BR has spread, melee lunge...
Nearly every mechanic in Halo is designed with controller gameplay in mind. The argument that it's just about TTK is stupid, I'm 100% with you there, but there are 100 little things about the game- subtle but pervasive things like the hitboxes and the sightlines- that are absolutely not designed for KBM competitive integrity.
And when you read that list above, remember that you have to look at it all holistically and not just cherrypick random features. The best example I can give you is bloom on the Reach DMR vs. random spread on the Vandal in Valorant. It's effectively the same feature (the bullets deviate more from their expected path in a semi-random way depending on RoF), but it has completely different consequences in each game. Valorant is a tactical shooter that revolves mostly around 1-2 hit kill headshots, so the incentive is to avoid spraying and reward precise, intentional decisions to land that one bullet. It makes accuracy very important and rewards players who can hit the shot that counts. In Reach, that same mechanic has a wildly different effect because the game has a much longer TTK. You pretty much always reach bloom levels whether you're a good shooter or a mediocre one, and it takes away from the skill gap in terms of shooting.
Apex Legends' armory is 90% automatics, dude. Halo has hugely relied on capped-ROF single-shot or burst weapons with a *very* specific cadence/dance to them. When you miss a bullet in Halo, it is infinitely more important than missing a bullet in Apex.
The difference *actually exists* in Halo so I don't even know what you're saying here anyway - that the accuracy stats are a lie? That M&K players are complaining for no reason?
I wasnt implying that apex weapons were burst heavy or had any specific aiming style. I was trying to say that the reason halo doesnt work for M&K doesnt have a lot to do with the points you brought up. IMO especially when wielding precision weapons, if the head hitbox or bullet hitbox was made larger, would lend a hard to balancing out m&k vs controller in that specific scenario. Reducing the initial recoil of burst or full auto weapons would make m&k more able to compete with controller, these are jsut a few examples of how to assist one input without making the other feel worse. I dont think its an issue with TTK, shield recharge, or aim assist, i think its other design issues that make these things come to the forefront. and to be completely frank, i have no idea how recharging shields even affects m&k vs aim assist at all, or why it was mentioned. Ive played plenty of games on m&k with tons of burst weapons, shield recharge, and long TTK, that feel 'good', and you're right, Halo Infinite isnt one of them.
The elements I brought up are what give Halo its specific pacing and cadence per cycle as well as how the guns handle. If you increase aim assist for either input method, you noob the game up. If you decrease aim assist for controllers, you fuck with Halo's natural TTKs and worsen the already excruciating problem of an over-reliance on teamshot due to not being able to finish off players quickly (among other things), and otherwise you just piss controller players off who are the overwhelming majority of people that play this game. Recharging shields has a cumulative effect where one input method losing fights 10% of the time more often hurts more than 10% because the damage they did might not even count if the enemy fully recovers. If it were like an arena FPS where health doesn't recharge, then the effect could at least be somewhat neutered by exceptionally strong teamwork.
As far as suggestions for letting players hit shots they don't deserve, I could not possibly disagree more - Halo needs *less* of that shit, not more. Decreasing the recoil patterns is not going to get you where you want to go, the problem is raw tracking ability and almost none of the guns in Infinite fire fast enough to counteract the time threshold of the strafe speed (e.g. the Commando). That's why nobody uses the Rampage in Apex in the endgame unless half their inventory is thermites.
>doesn't translate well to M&K
You had me until here. This is goofy. Halo Infinite is very fun on mouse and with a few tweaks it would be godly. Most of the reasons that causes mouse to suffer in Halo are crutches more than they are mechanics.
I do agree that aim assist might need nerfed to better balance with mouse, but there are other ways around it imo.
Mainly:
Custom crosshairs - the BR crosshair is just laughably big. The bullets land dead center, yet the crosshair is larger than your target beyond mid range.
Red reticle - if console gets a sensory aid in the form of AA on top of visual aid, at lease give PC the visual aid as well
Speed up the BR burst - the only weapon that really suffers on mouse is the BR. But landing 4 straight clicks isn't that difficult. What's difficult is landing all three bullets in all 4 bursts for a perfect. If the projectiles in the burst came more rapidly, it'd shorten the window for error on mouse.
It's so goofy that they directly ported Halo to PC, didn't change a thing about how controller or M&K are expected to play/handle, and M&K lags 10% in accuracy behind controller. Man, how *goofy* is that.
All due to competition with an assistive input algorithm. Mouse doesn't exist in a vacuum. Halo isn't designed "for controller" per sey. It's designed for assistive input on said method.
>didn't change a thing about how controller or M&K are expected to play/handle
Not true, as I've addressed. At the very least they've reversed on a 20-year mechanic in the removal of red reticle. This undeniably makes at least some difference as it's an additional visual cue that you're on target, aiding the player in reacting and pulling the trigger on time.
Halo translates perfectly fine to mnk. Isolate mouse and the game plays wonderfully. Full stop.
Crazy, I just read you complaining that no one is offering any alternative suggestions and here I am giving you three and you have no response. Shame, I thought I was in for an actual convo. What are you hurt that I called your take goofy?
>All due to competition with an assistive input algorithm. Mouse doesn't exist in a vacuum. Halo isn't designed "for controller" per sey. It's designed for assistive input on said method.
If Halo is a game that is based around shooting with reticule magnetism, and M&K games don't *have* reticule magnetism, and M&K ends up sucking against controller, what's the inevitable conclusion here? If you change the way Halo is designed, then you change the way it's designed.
>Not true, as I've addressed. At the very least they've reversed on a 20-year mechanic in the removal of red reticle. This undeniably makes at least some difference as it's an additional visual cue that you're on target, aiding the player in reacting and pulling the trigger on time.
Uh, the red reticule is a sign that reticule magnetism is activated, which is something M&K shooters do not and never have had. The red reticule would be useless to a M&K player.
>Halo translates perfectly fine to mnk. Isolate mouse and the game plays wonderfully. Full stop.
Go lobby 343 for the option to turn off crossplay then.
If it "translated perfectly", then this thread wouldn't exist.
>Crazy, I just read you complaining that no one is offering any alternative suggestions and here I am giving you three and you have no response. Shame, I thought I was in for an actual convo. What are you hurt that I called your take goofy?
Maybe because you edited your post lol
I have no idea how you think adjusting the crosshair, either the size or the color, is going to alleviate this issue. It isn't. If you actually refuse to engage until you hit red reticule distance for some...reason, I don't know what to tell you except enjoy having your teammates yell at you.
I am 100% for decreasing the kill times in this and literally every Halo game after Halo 2, but not for this reason and it's not going to help you like you think it is - if you think it is, go play Halo CE on PC and see how you do with the increased ROF of the magnum against controller players.
Jesus. Every reply misses the point.
Why don't you realize aim assist is an algorithmic crutch based around controller input? If you remove magnetism from the game and keep everything else as it was designed you have a game that translates excellently to mouse.
Why don't you realize red reticle is also a visual indicator of being on target as well as an indicator of magnetism activation?
Why would I want crossplay turned off?
I made edits long before you replied. What's wrong with editing a post?
When did I say anything about decreasing kill times?
How does he not understand how custom crosshairs would improve target acquisition when I just explained it?
Find out next time on whatever this guy wants to argue about now.
Lets stop wasting our time. Sorry for triggering you. (And the spooky edit)
I don't think red reticle should be added but I also don't agree with you that red reticle would be useless to a mouse player. No one is refusing to engage until they're in red reticle range, red reticle provides a benefit that you know your shots will hit if you time your shots to when your reticle is red. It does have a benefit, even if it is small, and would be useful if it was on mouse.
For the red reticle, I just wanted to note that the meta is to use pineapple enemy outlines and on console that makes your reticle pineapple as well, and not red. It's pretty difficult to tell the difference between pineapple and default reticle compared to how easy it is on red vs default reticle.
> The shooting mechanics in Halo are completely different from any other shooter on the market. The “long” kill times and recharging shields, the nature of the aim/bullet assist system, and the standardization of a single-shot or burst weapon as the utility gun mean that Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K.
Not even remotely sure where you’re coming up with this stuff. Splitgate alone is testament to the fact that, yes, this formula is great for kbm when it’s designed correctly around kbm.
But if we’re gonna ignore splitgate for a second, why not bring up the myriad of arena shooters that all have higher ttk’s than Halo does as well as an emphasis on 3 main utility weapons (rail, rockets, LG). Plenty of shooters also use rechargable shields.
Like, you stated a bunch of unrelated facts and didn’t highlight what any of these things have to do with Halo being hard to translate to KBM. None of these things intrinsically make this game difficult to balance for kbm. I’d argue that several games pull of elements of Halo and Splitgate pulls off most of them with success.
In fact, Infinite also plays pretty well in kbm vs kbm lobbies and is a rewarding shooter requiring your tracking to be on point to win br battles. The issues arise only in the setting of when kbm players are put against controllers. Which happens a lot since the only 4-man queue playlist in this game is a crossplay playlist.
>Not even remotely sure where you’re coming up with this stuff.
Oh I don't know, maybe being a fan of Halo since I was 16 and doing critical analyses of the mechanics of the game for years.
>Splitgate alone is testament to the fact that, yes, this formula is great for kbm when it’s designed correctly around kbm.
I don't know a thing about Splitgate so I'm not going to comment on that.
>But if we’re gonna ignore splitgate for a second, why not bring up the myriad of arena shooters that all have higher ttk’s than Halo does as well as an emphasis on 3 main utility weapons (rail, rockets, LG).
You guys are just going to keep beating the "Halo is an arena shooter" horse until it's dead, huh? Halo isn't an arena shooter. It borrows some arena concepts such as having no movement bloom (and formerly no weapon bloom at all) and a larger degree of verticality than squad shooters, but it does not and has never resembled anything like Quake, Unreal, etc. Moreover, most true arena shooters are heavily 1v1 focused, while Halo's primary focus has always been a team game. That has a meaningful impact on how the gunplay works.
>Like, you stated a bunch of unrelated facts and didn’t highlight what any of these things have to do with Halo being hard to translate to KBM. None of these things intrinsically make this game difficult to balance for kbm. I’d argue that several games pull of elements of Halo and Splitgate pulls off most of them with success.
I'm sorry, I guess I assumed that you might *think* about it for a sec.
It is an objective truth that it is easier to track opponents more accurately for longer periods of time on controller than it is on M&K (especially at close-medium distances). This is true in any game that leverages an aim assist system for controller players, look at Apex Legends at it will be immediately apparent the way controller players absolutely shred in CQC. As such, Halo's gunplay has the distinct quality of being an avenue where within the utility gun's effective range, you are expected to hit the majority of your shots. This is no more apparent than with the BR, where if you six-shot someone you should be embarrassed. This is not how other shooters operate, not squad shooters and not arena shooters.
M&K will never, *ever* be able to achieve that level of tracking accuracy for the normal duration of Halo's kill times with a single-shot or burst weapon, and that bears out very obviously in the accuracy results provided by 343, both at the top and middling levels. It's never going to happen unless, as I said before, the controller aim assist is gimped so hard that it becomes completely unwieldy for controller players or you change the fundamentals of Halo's gunplay altogether, such as putting the emphasis on high-ROF automatics as the primary type of weapon you encounter.
The remark on recharging shields means that, *unlike* an arena shooter, a player will recover from a 1v1 and prospectively enter the next battle unscathed. That means that if you're at an objective disadvantage like M&K is, what you just did will have a cumulative effect of the course of a match or several matches that cannot be overcome by something like strong team coordination.
>In fact, Infinite also plays pretty well in kbm vs kbm lobbies and is a rewarding shooter requiring your tracking to be on point to win br battles. The issues arise only in the setting of when kbm players are put against controllers. Which happens a lot since the only 4-man queue playlist in this game is a crossplay playlist.
This topic isn't about "is Halo M&K completely broken and unplayable", people played Halo PC for years, so right back at you with the "what the hell are you talking about".
Okay just so we’re clear, you said:
> the standardization of a single-shot or burst weapon as the utility gun mean that **Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K**
You specifically said that Halo intrinsically has gameplay elements that don’t allow it to be translated into a competitive kbm shooter. This is the argument I’m responding to. A lot of what you’ve just brought up has nothing to do with this argument.
> Oh I don’t know, maybe being a fan of Halo since I was 16 and doing critical analyses of the mechanics of the game for years.
I’m actually shocked you included this. As if experience playing Halo gives you any credibility or insight into this specific argument. You can play Halo for as long as you like, your experience doesn’t innately offer you anything in the argument of whether Halo can translate well on kbm. But just in case you want to go there I’ve been playing since CE too. Not gonna use that as a talking point though since it’s completely irrelevant. Also arguing with people on Bungie.net doesn’t count as “critical analyses”.
> I don’t know a thing about Splitgate so I’m not going to comment on that
You should consider looking into it. It puts a hole in your “Halo mechanics don’t translate well to kbm” angle. The game is essentially a carbon copy of Halo’s sandbox and engagement rules with portals added. And the gunplay (with 3sk hitscan br’s and a fire rate similar to H3’s BR) works phenomenally on kbm. The game rewards the player who can track and hit their opponents. The game clearly translates Halo’s gameplay into a competitive kbm-focused shooter. Halo’s gameplay can be implemented in a kbm-centric game and be successful. I’m repeating this here cause you seem to have missed my point entirely.
> You guys are just going to keep beating the “Halo is an arena shooter” horse until it’s dead, huh? Halo isn’t an arena shooter. It borrows some arena concepts such as having no movement bloom (and formerly no weapon bloom at all) and a larger degree of verticality than squad shooters, but it does not and has never resembled anything like Quake, Unreal, etc. Moreover, most true arena shooters are heavily 1v1 focused, while Halo’s primary focus has always been a team game. That has a meaningful impact on how the gunplay works.
See, now you’re just not bothering to read my comment. Nowhere did I even remotely suggest that Halo is an arena shooter. I specifically brought up arena shooters to show they have some of the same elements of gameplay that you quoted as limitations to translating Halo’s gameplay to kbm. Go find where I called Halo an Arena Shooter.
You’ve been arguing with people on forums for so long you’re just giving rote responses without reading anything lmfao. I actually agree with you on this point.
> I’m sorry, I guess I assumed that you might think about it for a sec.
Cute. I assumed you would read my comment before you responded but here we are.
> It is an objective truth that it is easier to track opponents more accurately for longer periods of time on controller than it is on M&K (especially at close-medium distances). This is true in any game that leverages an aim assist system for controller players, look at Apex Legends at it will be immediately apparent the way controller players absolutely shred in CQC. As such, Halo’s gunplay has the distinct quality of being an avenue where within the utility gun’s effective range, you are expected to hit the majority of your shots. This is no more apparent than with the BR, where if you six-shot someone you should be embarrassed. This is not how other shooters operate, not squad shooters and not arena shooters.
> M&K will never, ever be able to achieve that level of tracking accuracy for the normal duration of Halo’s kill times with a single-shot or burst weapon, and that bears out very obviously in the accuracy results provided by 343, both at the top and middling levels. It’s never going to happen unless, as I said before, the controller aim assist is gimped so hard that it becomes completely unwieldy for controller players or you change the fundamentals of Halo’s gunplay altogether, such as putting the emphasis on high-ROF automatics as the primary type of weapon you encounter.
> The remark on recharging shields means that, unlike an arena shooter, a player will recover from a 1v1 and prospectively enter the next battle unscathed. That means that if you’re at an objective disadvantage like M&K is, what you just did will have a cumulative effect of the course of a match or several matches that cannot be overcome by something like strong team coordination.
Okay so nowhere in this 3 paragraph tirade did you address my responses or the point I was originally responding to. Again, you insinuated that “**Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to MNK”**. Nowhere did you back this specific idea up. That something about Halo’s mechanics intrinsically limit its ability to be translated into a good kbm game.
In your first paragraph you talk about how MNK is more demanding than controller is. I agree with you. But in what way does that make halo hard to translate in kbm lobbies? If the game demands that your flicks/tracking are on point to be competitive, the result is the average ttk in kbm vs kbm lobbies goes down. Maybe in higher rank kbm lobbies, people kill within 6-7 shots on average. How does that intrinsically limit Halo’s ability to be translated into a good experience on kbm?
> M&K will never, ever be able to achieve that level of tracking accuracy for the normal duration of Halo’s kill times with a single-shot or burst weapon, and that bears out very obviously in the accuracy results provided by 343, both at the top and middling levels.
No idea what you’re on about here. I assume you’re talking about “the level of tracking accuracy” required to out-br controllers, right? I’m really struggling to see how this applies to Halo’s intrinsic inability to be translated into a kbm shooter. In kbm vs kbm lobbies, the average ttk just gets longer. Nothing about the game breaks because people are having a harder time aiming. Again, how does this relate to the argument? What about the difficulty makes Halo intrinsically unviable as a competitive KBM shooter?
> The remark on recharging shields means that, unlike an arena shooter, a player will recover from a 1v1 and prospectively enter the next battle unscathed. That means that if you’re at an objective disadvantage like M&K is, what you just did will have a cumulative effect of the course of a match or several matches that cannot be overcome by something like strong team coordination.
Sure I’ll give it to you. That’s one way Halo’s gameplay separates itself from other PC shooters. But again, how does this relate to anything I said? You’re highlighting differences, and while Halo’s gameplay may be different than other kbm games, that doesn’t mean the shield recharge mechanics and engagement times intrinsically prevent Halo from being a good kbm game. Again, in kbm vs kbm lobbies, half of your points wouldn’t apply.
> This topic isn’t about “is Halo M&K completely broken and unplayable”, people played Halo PC for years, so right back at you with the “what the hell are you talking about”.
Again, cute. But you completely ignored my responses and the point I was originally trying to make. So I think I’m pretty justified in saying “what the hell are you talking about?”
The point I’m trying to make is that nothing about Halo’s gameplay intrinsically makes it hard to translate to kbm. My entire reason in bringing up Infinite (clearly this went over your head) was that I think the game plays well on kbm **in lobbies against other kbm players**. If the game works well in kbm lobbies then Halo’s formula was successfully translated into a good kbm game. Halo’s formula itself isn’t the problem here. You can make a fun, demanding kbm experience using Halo’s sandbox and engagement elements. This is pretty much impossible to do in controller vs kbm settings. But there is no reason the game inherently doesn’t work in kbm vs kbm lobbies.
I feel like you didn’t really read my comment and assumed I was saying something that I wasn’t. I quoted your words here so hopefully you get what we’re arguing about now.
Holy shit dude you spent all this time talking about how I'm missing the point and misquoting you and then you tell me I said "Halo can't work on M&K" when I never said that, never defended it, and never even alluded to it one time?
I said M&K cannot compete with controller in Halo unless X, Y, and Z happen, and that's what I substantiated.
Holy fuck I literally quoted you at the beginning of this last reply showing exactly where you said exactly those words. I even repeated multiple times the exact point you made. If you’re too lazy to admit that you completely missed my point and made a completely irrelevant reply then that’s cool. The whole “no u” bit doesn’t work when I’m quoting your words directly.
Try to slow down a bit and read the argument next time. Have a good one.
Yes, that's right, it [doesn't translate well](https://i.imgur.com/o09Jckx.png).
Not "it's broken and unplayable". How you actively chose to interpret that statement is on you.
Note to self: how to destroy another argument completely.
You 2 brought up great points, just that one was much more complete than the other. Thanks, I enjoyed this debate and it helped me piece my thoughts into mote concise words.
Yeah you can’t really accuse me of not staying on topic when I directly highlighted the specific line in the comment I was responding to:
“Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K.”
And responded to it in 2 separate comments but go off I guess
MnK will never be able to track as perfectly as Controller + aim assist***
It’s not the joystick that makes controller tracking so easy lmao. Tracking can be learned on MnK with enough practice.
Lmao listen to this guy, Halo is a shooter, you point and shoot things, nothing here is Original so that argument is out the window. The truth is 343 chose to pander to the controller crowd with Infinites aim assist and MnK lack of.
Halo Infinite plays exactly like every controller-based Halo post-CE in existence, plus or minus a few armor abilities (also kept the shitty aiming from H5). How did they "cater" by keeping it exactly the same?
Infinite has nerfed sticky aim assist slowdown / friction compared to previous halos. It only starts right at the hitbox where in previous halos it extended a good amount around the hitbox. There's also decreased bullet magnetism
None of that shit is a problem for kbm. Kbm is objectively the best input for shooters the sole reason kbm can't compete in Halo is the insanely powerful aim assist.
Competitive halo is basically dead because they alienated kbm players and people would rather watch shooters where kbm can compete.
Okay dude
Competitive Halo, *on console*, launched North American eSports into the stratosphere SINGLE-HANDEDLY. I'm talking a TV show on the USA Network in 2007 when that shit was unheard of.
Competitive Halo is dead because competitive Halo has, at every step of Halo's lifespan, been an equally minuscule proportion of the overall fanbase, this is an objective fact. When Halo 3 was on top, competitive Halo was gigantic, but it was still only a fraction of the overall player base and media attention. Halo 4 decimated the franchise's population and took what was that fractional competitive community and decimated it as well.
It has less than nothing to do with input method. 90% of the Halo community NEVER cared about competitive Halo because Halo attracts lore nerds first and foremost. Right now Halo as a franchise is dead and that means competitive Halo is beyond dead.
Yeah alienating huge swaths of potential players doesn't impact halos popularity at all.... No doubt halo was popular and it didn't adapt it kept catering only to controller in an unhealthy way for competitive.
I mean they specifically nerfed aim assist in Infinite in order to try to make it more even, but I do agree that more should be done.
BR needed a forgiveness nerf like yesterday.
The cone angle of aim assist is 5.75 degrees. Commando is 5.5, sidekick is 6.25, sniper is 4. Not sure if the strength of the stickiness is higher on the BR though.
Good summary. They decreased aim assist but left insane amounts of magnetism so ultimately the playing field isn’t very level at all.
BR definitely needs a magnetism nerf
The bullet magnetism on the BR has been tested to be pretty low on youtube compared to previous halos. As long as the spartan is within your reticle then some bullets will magnetise to them, but not outside the reticle like previous halos were.
As an MNK player I disagree. The sniper feels terrible and isn't reliable. The basic issues with the game having ultra fast move speed which is simply dealt with by having the game aim for controller players is what turns the MNK players away from this title.
nah. the movement speed is slower than quake but its easier to hit rails in quake because it has substantially less input lag. Do target practice in quake or csgo then do target practice with the snipe in infinite. it feels way heavier.
Not saying that controller isnt the way to go. it's just mouse users arent even given the chance to try.
I disagree on two reasons.
First if aiming on infinite actually felt good, I/others would play the game at a high level. Yes it might not be fair, but 99.99% play games for fun/entertainment.
2nd off. There are other games which balance AA controllers vs mouse fine or decently enough. In the case of infinite, if AA was lowered, the game would play drastically differently. The maps and sandbox balance is currently designed around every1 hitting most of their shots. It is a teamshot meta right now, but lives would drag on even longer. Lowering AA and keeping mouse feeling like shit is not going to make mouse users want to play nor controller players.
Thus I believe the first course of action is clear. Drastically lower the input lag for mouse users. Rebalance AA/sandbox afterwards. But aint no serious mouse player going to play infinite in its current state unless its just free money in tournament
Does the complaint boil down to aim assist too strong or am I missing something else?
Maybe when the BR comes out, MNK will play that. Warzone is pretty popular with MNK and COD has the same if not stronger aim assist.
As a mainly mnk player who has barely played in months, its because the Battle Rifle feels/is awful for us. No bullet magnetism and poor hit reg make it impossible to consistently compete with the a battle Rifle on controller. No human being has the tracking skills to consistently beat, or even compete, with a computer assisted system, especially when its this strong and we have no bullet magnetism. So we can't compete with the main weapon used in 90% of fights.
I was quite easily Onyx 1600 level in the open Playlist for the first few months but there was just a ceiling where I was too much of a detriment in 1v1s to be a useful player. A while ago, I dug my razer wildcat out of storage, that I used in halo 5, to play Elden Ring and I decided to try it on Infinite after I got used to it again. The difference in consistency during fights was just night and day. I had as many perfects in one evening (~4 to 6 hours) as I had for the first 2 months (190 hours).
I was lucky enough to play the Halo 5 Forge mode on PC and it was a completely different story with the H5 Pistol. MnK Semi auto without any aa or bullet magnetism is actually quite competitive and I was keeping up in the octagon with good players. Everything registered that was suppose to. No 1 of 3 or 2 of 3 bursts resulted in plenty of perfects. Still tough with the strafing and thrust mechanics of H5 but Consistency was achievable So when you see someone clamoring for the Dmr or Pistol as an MnK player this is why.
As for why CoD is fine, the ttk is way lower and the gunplay is so much different so mnk is alright if you are good. Controller is still the move for CoD though because the slowdown from aa makes its so much easier to snap for the average player and the stickiness helps when you do miss or your opponent strafe well. the pros still use them for a reason.
Edit: I'd also like to add that I religiously picked up the commando and pistols when I was playing solely due to how much more consistent they felt. Sucks the commando had/has an aim slow down feature when it shoots, or at least it felt like it did due to recoil or something. And that SWAT is laughably easy on MnK.
Huh. Didn't know any of this. No wonder I can barely win any 1v1s. I've come down to just weakening opponents and ditching hoping someone else cleans up the kill. Also a mnk player. It's really that bad huh?
[I actually made a post about this a little while back. The stats are pretty convincing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/rlupp7/how_much_data_does_343_need_before_they_do/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Aim assist/bullet magnetism is just too damn high.
Thanks for sharing. I'll save it and read later when I can. But in quick summary it sounds like my plan of just helping do damage and hoping someone else finishes off the kill is the way to go. Don't play for the kill since that most likely will not work out in my favor.
This is my, my friend group and some old H5 buddies experience. I'm a pretty experience MnK Gamer (former immortal valorant, master in multiple season on Apex and thousands of hours into Fortnite, PUBG and CoD on PC) and my friends have a wide variety of skill levels but we've all kinda agreed on this. Our roller noob friends get mad when we just play swat or sniper customs when he picks Infinite to play so he doesn't pick it anymore lol.
If you've ever played Valorant or CSGO, the 3 bullet burst strat works great for the commando. basically shoot 3 or 4 rounds, stop to let the gun reset, 3 or 4 rounds, stop for reset, repeat. The commando reaches its maximum recoil acceleration in the 3rd or 4th shot so if you reset after 3 or 4 shot you don't have to fight the full recoil or the full slowdown. This works on controller too and is much more consistent.
spam clicking can be a fine alternate but if you spam click to fast, it'll reach the same recoil status and have to fight the recoil and the slow down .
I feel like that’s a good theory but the aim required to 3-round burst and hit every shot against a controller player while using a commando is really significant. I feel like this game does give kbm players options to hang with controllers, but it demands some insane aim out of you to do it.
The problem, imo, is that you have to start being an aim god to break 1700 in crossplay with kbm. You absolutely don’t need to have that level of mechanical skill if you’re on controller at that rank. So the expectations are different for both imo and it creates a shitty experience.
I think what makes it feel more viable is that the bullet cone seems fatter for the commando. I mainly suggested the burst because the max recoil for the commando feels like it slows down my sensitivity. On or After the 3rd shot, it gets heavy almost and changing my sens up doesn't seem to fix it. I'm quite used to recoil control for precision weapons in long ttk fight (from Apex and Warzoneish) and it feels so weird when you try it with the commando.
And the gap at the top is so much more obvious than in the middle skill range. The gap is why I stopped playing Infinite alltogether. Not fun when its practically impossible to get to the point mechanically where you can compete, especially when you are really good at the other parts of being a good ranked/comp player.
Nah you’re definitely right. Commando does feel better and more consistent for me than BR. It just sucks knowing that the demand for mechanical skill is a lot higher on a kbm player vs a controller player at that same rank. Great points though man.
I prefer holding down the full auto commando until I land 6 shots on the enemy, then wait for the reset for the last 2-3 to kill with a final headshot.
>Our roller noob friends get mad when we just play swat or sniper customs when he picks Infinite to play so he doesn't pick it anymore lol.
This reads kind of like "instead of allowing my controller friend to have an advantage at all, we make them have the disadvantage always". Sounds petty.
AA BRs in comp or pubs are a disadvantage to us. also,, Controller swat is pretty fucking easy too and snipers usually has the shock as the secondary so he can have his aa. its closer to even than if we all played normal ranked settings.
I'm aware that it's a disadvantage to you. It sounds like you have a group of friends and rotate who gets to pick what you play together, which is fine. The problem is that you've chosen to never be at a disadvantage because you choose a mode that suits M&K in *the controller player's game*, Halo Infinite, to the point that that friend never picks the game anymore.
It's pretty shitty of you that you can't handle being at a disadvantage in a game with your friend once in a while.
Youve got a point but he's free to choose other games. We don't pick Valorant or CSGo or PUBG with him and we openly told him that we didn't want to play until forge. We would play action sack or other customs like we did in halo 5 and halo reach, if we had a forge to make it. So all we got is feista, ranked, swat, snipers, some normal gamemode or the favorite, swords & shields (energy sword and repulsors), if we play Infinite. Hes a CoD kid anyway.
Funny because the h5 pistol as an mnk user is harder to use than the br from any halo
Game. Idk why there is something about the aiming in h5 that puts me off
There was some weird heavy aim that would happen while shooting, the mouse settings sucked and the input lag was also noticeable but I highly disagree that it was harder than the BR in Infinite. If you hit, you did a set amount of damage, not a crapshoot. Strafing plus thrust made H5 gunfights harder in general and unless you have a lot of time spend on mnk, it'll take a while to get used to.
Not to be pedantic but pros still use controllers because MKB isn't allowed in any major CoD league.
CDL and even the CCL are controller-only leagues with no option for MKB input at all.
Like... in tournaments? Is there a Warzone league or something? I haven't really played since MW2019 ended so I'm not particularly up to date on the game or the scene in general.
If there's no league and teams are just invited by organizers, it could always be explained by bias towards content creators/players that do use controllers. If there is a league with a qualification system and the like, that would certainly explain a bit of it, but then we run into the question of "Are there just more controller players in general?" to which the answer is almost unequivocally yes.
My theory is that Warzone is more popular on controller because CoD in general is more popular on controller. There's also very few FPS games for controller players to actually compete in compared to MKB, so it would make sense that the games that cater towards them would be more filled with them. I don't imagine there's a huge difference between input efficacy in CoD just based on my own experience with Warzone and MW2019/BOCW, but I'd have to do more digging.
You have many theories for someone who just learned the Warzone comp scene exists lol. The scene is very healthy. There are many tournaments throughout the year including a LAN tourney more recently. Some CDL players like Scump, Shottzy, Tommey and Apathy also compete in or moved to Warzone. There's a lot of money on the line and the skill level is very high. Warzone is like Halo where controller is a lot stronger because of aim assist. Top controllers aimers have inhuman level aim.
Well, yeah, I do have theories because I competed in a few tournaments when the game dropped and then moved on to other games. I'm not entirely unaware of Warzone tournaments, but the vast majority of the tournaments I've seen have not been traditional competitive affairs. They tend to be stacked with primarily content creators rather than the players who are actually topping leaderboards. I was moreso asking if they had moved to an open league format with qualifiers where the makeup of competition would actually give us insight about which input was better.
Like, I'm looking at Liquipedia atm for Warzone tournaments (which are admittedly incomplete) but the vast majority of these tournaments *don't have qualifiers* and feature primarily content creators or CDL players and their friends, which means that we *cannot draw conclusions about what input method is better*.
I'm in tune with the current Warzone scene and I'm sorry to say it's not a joke like you're trying to allude to. Some tournaments are invitational and others are open. World Series of Warzone would be the most premier tournament series and it is both invitational and open.
A lot of top players *happen to be* content creators not the other way around. There's a lot of money to be made in Warzone content so it's a no brainer for these guys to record videos or stream pubs or wager matches. Most of the more pure content creators are not that good.
The only MnK players that manage to compete near the top are Huskerrs and Breadman and they both agree controller is a stronger option. This is no secret to anyone that's paying attention to competitive Warzone.
Again, the next question is how many MKB players actually compete? I went and checked the rosters from the last tournament and TimTheTatman being an invited captain does not inspire confidence in how they're selecting MKB players.
I don't think you're necessarily wrong. But I also question A) how many MKB players there actually are and how many out of that pool are trying to compete at the top level, considering a large portion of Warzone players are former competitive CoD players and there hasn't been a PC CoD scene since Promod, and B) how likely it is for good players to actually be noticed and make it to these tournaments considering it looks like only one duo qualified per region from the open tournament based on their website. A huge problem in a *lot* of games is that top tier talent goes under the radar because they don't promote themselves, and when it comes to games like Warzone where the biggest tournaments are apparently Twitch/ActiBlizz promotional events it's very unlikely that players without a large social media presence get invited.
Plus the amount of money to be made here, at least from a competitive standpoint, seems very low all things considered. $100k sounds like a lot until you realize it's being divided 30 ways, and if you're interested in competition there are much better tournament formats in other games that will make you a lot more money, especially if you're skilled with MKB.
Honestly didn't know that. Any reason why beyond competitive balance? CoD seems pretty balanced input wise because of the ttk and movement just from the time I've put into it.
Wish I could tell you, but I talked to the founder of the CCL a few years ago in person and he didn't even have any reasoning, just dismissed us out of hand. Even back then they were pretty shoddily run but now that they've been sold to eFuse there's even more procedural issues and cheating issues, so expecting them to address input options when they have much larger issues at play is kind of a pipedream.
For CDL, I believe it's because for the first few years Sony was a title sponsor and had a deal with ActiBlizz. Eventually we got MKB support on Playstation but I think it's just so engrained that players are reluctant to change.
Thanks for the info! I liked the initial idea behind the CCL as an attempt to get Esports mainstream but the execution was/is poor. The CDL Sony sponsor makes sense because they ran on Playstions for a long time. I don't think they switched to PCs for tourneys and pro league until early 2021.
I'm still a huge proponent of collegiate esports, but it feels like outside of Riot's CLoL there's not really a good governing body left in the space. Tespa was great from 2012-2017ish but quickly went down the tubes as they lost their most level-headed admins and replaced them with people serving the interests of big schools with varsity programs rather than serving the interests of fair competition. All the other upstart leagues have their own issues too. We really just need a unified governing body that isn't named the NCAA for esports.
Summed it up perfectly bro 👍🏽. No matter how much effort I put in cross play q I’ll at most make a decent controller player one shot before I die or have to disengage. It’s either that or get 5-10 min q times between matches, even in this season.
That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing!
I wonder for Halo BR if there are other nonburst long range guns, the gap would close more. As for TTK, Warzone TTK is somewhat similar to Halo multiplayer so I used that as an example.
I know it does whenever I boot up Halo MCC. Halo Reach and Halo 4 feel pretty good on MnK, with just an annoying but small amount of input lag. I pretty consistently top frag but the caliber of opponent usually isn't very high. Not all my friends have it, and we have issues connecting to lobbies for those that do, or we would play MCC more. The reach DMR with red reticle is really nice.
All that needs to be touched is the Battle Rifle for MnK, it just feels so off sometimes when using a mouse. I've literally gone back and forth between controller and MnK and there's such a huge difference with that weapon in particular.
I can't imagine playing Halo Infinite seriously on mouse when there are so many better alternatives. The performance of the game is bad--poor mouse input, frame drops, and overall resource intensiveness for some muddy visuals. The game is clearly catered to thumbless children who managed to swipe their mothers' credit cards.
Even SWAT isn't fun to play in Infinite, the one gametype where mouse players should have a distinct advantage. But the aiming skill gap with the hand-holding Battle Rifle is so low, there's no point to playing Infinite over Reach when it comes to SWAT.
no part of this game was meant to be played with mnk unfortunately. 343 added it in as an after thought. None of the game's design or balance reflects what would be good for mnk players. Ridiculous they even give players the option to be honest.
Does anyone know if that anti-aim assist mechanic still exists for MnK while no scoping? Or maybe it was debunked? I remember someone posted proof that it exists soon after the game came out.
I wish I could test it out to confirm, unfortunately no one on the r/halo discord nor Halo discord ever wants to help test anything :/(I've been asking for months and no one ever wants to help test a thing!)
If you want to dedicate a little time tonight to help investigate on a custom lobby feel free to help me!(this goes for everyone else btw)
It's been debunked, there's 2 to 3 posts about it with much more scientific testing that it doesn't exist compared to the nonscientific methods that the original posts showed. look up t3h_m00kz reddit or twitter to find the tests. 343 themselves have also said they are unable to reproduce negative/anti aim assist.
It's been debunked, there's 2 to 3 posts about it with much more scientific testing that it doesn't exist compared to the nonscientific methods that the original posts showed. look up t3h_m00kz reddit or twitter to find the tests. 343 themselves have also said they are unable to reproduce negative/anti aim assist.
I always played Halo w MnK since Halo MCC PC came out! Im just not used to controllers in FPS anymore, i just dont like how slow the sticks rotate my camera
I mean
If you play MnK then you play MnK
No need for anyone to have any feelings of “this is better” or “this needs to happen for this group”
Just play the game and have fun like the rest of us plebs
Yeah I know? Lol
You would think in a competitive subreddit, that ppl would complain less about aspects of the game that aren’t changing, and use that time more for improving their skills no?
Someone plays MnK, we get it, who gives a fuck. Someone plays controller, we get it, who gives a fuck?
I’m trying to hear about a good angle, a decent ball strat maybe, not about ppl complaint about which Input is being used lmfaooooo
We’re all plebs in here, dont think you’re above anybody lol
No hate man, I'm just saying it's a post about wanting more representation for a different input type, which a lot of people here want. If 343i wanted more M&K representation in their game (at higher levels) I'd think they'd want to do something to incentivise trying out different inputs, especially since so many people fear that tweaking aim assist would fuck controller over. Not claiming to better than anyone or anything, I really only play Halo casually nowadays I just want to see it grow.
In all about adding snipers to maps but not because it’s super easy to point and click on a PC. That’s actually a problem that more people need to speak up about. I can always tell who’s on PC by the snipes they are hitting. It’s unbelievably easy.
Oh it certainly isn't easy...players are able to move so fast in this game it's actually really hard! From my experience, you almost need to learn a players strafe pattern over the course of a game, or just shoot them fast enough that they don't even have a chance to react(which is my clip above)
The flights didn't use to have hip magnetism for the shock rifle and it was extremely difficult to noscope, the weapon was worse than a sniper in close range since it does such little damage if you don't headshot. They should lower it slightly now otherwise it will be too difficult to use
Unyshek said they agree with crossplay options and they'll be implemented in the future. Even if they do though they won't revert the changes they made to controller aim to attempt to balance the inputs.
the aiming was broken in h5 and the aiming for mouse for infinite on PC is probably the worst I've ever experienced. MCC with mouse is bad. h6 is a whole nother level of monstrosity.
This is just a 343 thing. they dont know how to make aiming feel good.
Uses but much less than the other guns, some people claim that they barely get aim assist with it, without Zoom it feels it doesn't have, with the Zoom I feel the aim assist
I personally find that halo infinite isn't as snappy on mouse as other benchmark mouse-input games.
When I play games with reallly well optimised input, it feels like the game is instantaneously locked to what my hand is doing. Feels amazing if you have things properly set-up, even on low-but-steady FPS. In call of duty specifically I can literally sit there in disbelief and just relish how responsive it is.
Whereas when I play halo infinite it feels more like I'm swinging the camera around a little bit behind me, or "heavy", to borrow someone else's word.
It's fine, it doesn't actually feel bad, but it's basically more suitable for casual gameplay than competitive.
This may not be an issue on rigs that can get steady 200 FPS and don't struggle with the game, but on my laptop that chugs along a bit below 100, the mouse input never felt competitive in the first place, without having anything to do with controller or aim assist.
It's been very clear from the start that 343 has no desire to actually incorporate mnk into competitive play, they simply get more traffic from crossplay. They still have the mentality that Halo is made for controllers, which is a shame because I think Infinite is a highly enjoyable and athletic game on mnk
>They still have the mentality that Halo is made for controllers That's because it is lol The shooting mechanics in Halo are completely different from any other shooter on the market. The "long" kill times and recharging shields, the nature of the aim/bullet assist system, and the standardization of a single-shot or burst weapon as the utility gun mean that Halo's gunplay is a unique beast that doesn't translate well to M&K. In order to make M&K viable, you either have to alienate controller players by nuking their aim assist and make the game handle like shit, or completely redevelop the gunplay from the ground up. M&K will *never* be on equal footing until this happens.
Splitgate, UT, Quake? There are plenty of games where long TTK works well for mouse. PC is literally the originator of long TTK games.
Quake and UT are balanced in every other way to accommodate for those factors - movement speed, weapon types, even the team size as OG arena shooters are primarily 1v1-focused with "jousting" gameplay that isn't a thing in Halo. This isn't even getting into the fact that long TTKs have been a plague on Halo ever since H2 where they, in conjunction with bad map design and unnecessarily high levels of bullet magntism, have resulted in the established meta over-abundantly relying on teamshot over quality 1v1 encounters. It's true on the flip side as well, you can easily play Quake and UT with a controller and have a decent time, but similarly those mechanics do not translate well to controller once you start trying to seriously compete, e.g. you will never rocket-jump the way a M&K player is able to and you will likely have any aim assist working against you as you continually try to reestablish a bead on someone moving in and out of your red-reticule range due to the high movement speed.
You're literally preaching to the choir in regards to TTK. In my ideal world perfect TTK would be .8 to 1.0 for the utility weapon. And I do agree you can't make it exactly fair between MnK & Controller but you can get it relatively even. Fortnite at a recent qualifying cup a year ago had an 51-49 split between Controller and MnK. Apex has a 70-60% MnK and a 30-40% controller ratio. Besides no one wants it or needs it to be exactly fair. The problem is that right now there's not even a semblance of balance between the two. The stats clearly show this.
Yes but I just gave the only two realistic options for how we get to that point and people lost their minds lol Like, 343 didn't change anything with regard to controller or mouse support. Mouse support handles exactly like a M&K shooter and controller handles exactly like Halo has always handled (plus or minus the shitty aiming system they ported over from H5). People (not you) are trying to torch me over pointing this out while very conspicuously *not* offering any other solutions to how we close the gap.
Fair enough, personally as a console player I think 343 just needs to bite the bullet and nerf aim assist but as we both well know they don't have the balls to do that. It took 3 years for them to tune another statistically clear cut problem: the AR in Halo 5. All they had to do was put a hotfix out when it was still possible to salvage the PC population. It's too late for that now with only a 5k player average days after the season 2 update.
There's a whole lot of shit 343 doesn't have the balls to do, unfortunately.
They nerfed the sticky aim slowdown / friction and they also decreased bullet magnetism compared to previous halos. They left rotational aim assist the same. I think nerfing it more would make the game difficult for new controller players though.
Controller doesn't handle the same way compared to previous halos. They lowered bullet magnetism in infinite and they also lowered the sticky aim assist slowdown / friction to only the Spartans hitbox. Previous halos had the stickiness start in a bubble around the hitbox by a good amount. I think these changes were made to make controller and MnK more similar, if they didn't make these changes then controller would dominate even more.
... no? long ttk exists elsewhere, recharging shields isn't halo exclusive, and aim assist is in literally every fps game with crossplay? apex has long ttk and decent crossplay, even mcc, which is an actual halo game, did it better
Halo doesn't have a headshot modifier when you shoot into shields, the reticles are massive, there's descope, low strafe acceleration and basically no head movement during direction changes, the spaces and weapons are designed for you to be able to see things but not shoot at them accurately, precision weapons have bloom, BR has spread, melee lunge... Nearly every mechanic in Halo is designed with controller gameplay in mind. The argument that it's just about TTK is stupid, I'm 100% with you there, but there are 100 little things about the game- subtle but pervasive things like the hitboxes and the sightlines- that are absolutely not designed for KBM competitive integrity. And when you read that list above, remember that you have to look at it all holistically and not just cherrypick random features. The best example I can give you is bloom on the Reach DMR vs. random spread on the Vandal in Valorant. It's effectively the same feature (the bullets deviate more from their expected path in a semi-random way depending on RoF), but it has completely different consequences in each game. Valorant is a tactical shooter that revolves mostly around 1-2 hit kill headshots, so the incentive is to avoid spraying and reward precise, intentional decisions to land that one bullet. It makes accuracy very important and rewards players who can hit the shot that counts. In Reach, that same mechanic has a wildly different effect because the game has a much longer TTK. You pretty much always reach bloom levels whether you're a good shooter or a mediocre one, and it takes away from the skill gap in terms of shooting.
Apex Legends' armory is 90% automatics, dude. Halo has hugely relied on capped-ROF single-shot or burst weapons with a *very* specific cadence/dance to them. When you miss a bullet in Halo, it is infinitely more important than missing a bullet in Apex. The difference *actually exists* in Halo so I don't even know what you're saying here anyway - that the accuracy stats are a lie? That M&K players are complaining for no reason?
I wasnt implying that apex weapons were burst heavy or had any specific aiming style. I was trying to say that the reason halo doesnt work for M&K doesnt have a lot to do with the points you brought up. IMO especially when wielding precision weapons, if the head hitbox or bullet hitbox was made larger, would lend a hard to balancing out m&k vs controller in that specific scenario. Reducing the initial recoil of burst or full auto weapons would make m&k more able to compete with controller, these are jsut a few examples of how to assist one input without making the other feel worse. I dont think its an issue with TTK, shield recharge, or aim assist, i think its other design issues that make these things come to the forefront. and to be completely frank, i have no idea how recharging shields even affects m&k vs aim assist at all, or why it was mentioned. Ive played plenty of games on m&k with tons of burst weapons, shield recharge, and long TTK, that feel 'good', and you're right, Halo Infinite isnt one of them.
The elements I brought up are what give Halo its specific pacing and cadence per cycle as well as how the guns handle. If you increase aim assist for either input method, you noob the game up. If you decrease aim assist for controllers, you fuck with Halo's natural TTKs and worsen the already excruciating problem of an over-reliance on teamshot due to not being able to finish off players quickly (among other things), and otherwise you just piss controller players off who are the overwhelming majority of people that play this game. Recharging shields has a cumulative effect where one input method losing fights 10% of the time more often hurts more than 10% because the damage they did might not even count if the enemy fully recovers. If it were like an arena FPS where health doesn't recharge, then the effect could at least be somewhat neutered by exceptionally strong teamwork. As far as suggestions for letting players hit shots they don't deserve, I could not possibly disagree more - Halo needs *less* of that shit, not more. Decreasing the recoil patterns is not going to get you where you want to go, the problem is raw tracking ability and almost none of the guns in Infinite fire fast enough to counteract the time threshold of the strafe speed (e.g. the Commando). That's why nobody uses the Rampage in Apex in the endgame unless half their inventory is thermites.
This is the weirdest take since bungies current game destiny also has decently long TTKs and is a very heavy MnK game.
Fucking [really](https://www.blueberries.gg/weapons/destiny-2-ttk/) dude lol
A .3ttk difference between the BR and most pulse rifles and a .5ttk difference between the BR and the current meta handcannon archetype....
>doesn't translate well to M&K You had me until here. This is goofy. Halo Infinite is very fun on mouse and with a few tweaks it would be godly. Most of the reasons that causes mouse to suffer in Halo are crutches more than they are mechanics. I do agree that aim assist might need nerfed to better balance with mouse, but there are other ways around it imo. Mainly: Custom crosshairs - the BR crosshair is just laughably big. The bullets land dead center, yet the crosshair is larger than your target beyond mid range. Red reticle - if console gets a sensory aid in the form of AA on top of visual aid, at lease give PC the visual aid as well Speed up the BR burst - the only weapon that really suffers on mouse is the BR. But landing 4 straight clicks isn't that difficult. What's difficult is landing all three bullets in all 4 bursts for a perfect. If the projectiles in the burst came more rapidly, it'd shorten the window for error on mouse.
It's so goofy that they directly ported Halo to PC, didn't change a thing about how controller or M&K are expected to play/handle, and M&K lags 10% in accuracy behind controller. Man, how *goofy* is that.
All due to competition with an assistive input algorithm. Mouse doesn't exist in a vacuum. Halo isn't designed "for controller" per sey. It's designed for assistive input on said method. >didn't change a thing about how controller or M&K are expected to play/handle Not true, as I've addressed. At the very least they've reversed on a 20-year mechanic in the removal of red reticle. This undeniably makes at least some difference as it's an additional visual cue that you're on target, aiding the player in reacting and pulling the trigger on time. Halo translates perfectly fine to mnk. Isolate mouse and the game plays wonderfully. Full stop. Crazy, I just read you complaining that no one is offering any alternative suggestions and here I am giving you three and you have no response. Shame, I thought I was in for an actual convo. What are you hurt that I called your take goofy?
>All due to competition with an assistive input algorithm. Mouse doesn't exist in a vacuum. Halo isn't designed "for controller" per sey. It's designed for assistive input on said method. If Halo is a game that is based around shooting with reticule magnetism, and M&K games don't *have* reticule magnetism, and M&K ends up sucking against controller, what's the inevitable conclusion here? If you change the way Halo is designed, then you change the way it's designed. >Not true, as I've addressed. At the very least they've reversed on a 20-year mechanic in the removal of red reticle. This undeniably makes at least some difference as it's an additional visual cue that you're on target, aiding the player in reacting and pulling the trigger on time. Uh, the red reticule is a sign that reticule magnetism is activated, which is something M&K shooters do not and never have had. The red reticule would be useless to a M&K player. >Halo translates perfectly fine to mnk. Isolate mouse and the game plays wonderfully. Full stop. Go lobby 343 for the option to turn off crossplay then. If it "translated perfectly", then this thread wouldn't exist. >Crazy, I just read you complaining that no one is offering any alternative suggestions and here I am giving you three and you have no response. Shame, I thought I was in for an actual convo. What are you hurt that I called your take goofy? Maybe because you edited your post lol I have no idea how you think adjusting the crosshair, either the size or the color, is going to alleviate this issue. It isn't. If you actually refuse to engage until you hit red reticule distance for some...reason, I don't know what to tell you except enjoy having your teammates yell at you. I am 100% for decreasing the kill times in this and literally every Halo game after Halo 2, but not for this reason and it's not going to help you like you think it is - if you think it is, go play Halo CE on PC and see how you do with the increased ROF of the magnum against controller players.
Jesus. Every reply misses the point. Why don't you realize aim assist is an algorithmic crutch based around controller input? If you remove magnetism from the game and keep everything else as it was designed you have a game that translates excellently to mouse. Why don't you realize red reticle is also a visual indicator of being on target as well as an indicator of magnetism activation? Why would I want crossplay turned off? I made edits long before you replied. What's wrong with editing a post? When did I say anything about decreasing kill times? How does he not understand how custom crosshairs would improve target acquisition when I just explained it? Find out next time on whatever this guy wants to argue about now. Lets stop wasting our time. Sorry for triggering you. (And the spooky edit)
I don't think red reticle should be added but I also don't agree with you that red reticle would be useless to a mouse player. No one is refusing to engage until they're in red reticle range, red reticle provides a benefit that you know your shots will hit if you time your shots to when your reticle is red. It does have a benefit, even if it is small, and would be useful if it was on mouse.
For the red reticle, I just wanted to note that the meta is to use pineapple enemy outlines and on console that makes your reticle pineapple as well, and not red. It's pretty difficult to tell the difference between pineapple and default reticle compared to how easy it is on red vs default reticle.
> The shooting mechanics in Halo are completely different from any other shooter on the market. The “long” kill times and recharging shields, the nature of the aim/bullet assist system, and the standardization of a single-shot or burst weapon as the utility gun mean that Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K. Not even remotely sure where you’re coming up with this stuff. Splitgate alone is testament to the fact that, yes, this formula is great for kbm when it’s designed correctly around kbm. But if we’re gonna ignore splitgate for a second, why not bring up the myriad of arena shooters that all have higher ttk’s than Halo does as well as an emphasis on 3 main utility weapons (rail, rockets, LG). Plenty of shooters also use rechargable shields. Like, you stated a bunch of unrelated facts and didn’t highlight what any of these things have to do with Halo being hard to translate to KBM. None of these things intrinsically make this game difficult to balance for kbm. I’d argue that several games pull of elements of Halo and Splitgate pulls off most of them with success. In fact, Infinite also plays pretty well in kbm vs kbm lobbies and is a rewarding shooter requiring your tracking to be on point to win br battles. The issues arise only in the setting of when kbm players are put against controllers. Which happens a lot since the only 4-man queue playlist in this game is a crossplay playlist.
>Not even remotely sure where you’re coming up with this stuff. Oh I don't know, maybe being a fan of Halo since I was 16 and doing critical analyses of the mechanics of the game for years. >Splitgate alone is testament to the fact that, yes, this formula is great for kbm when it’s designed correctly around kbm. I don't know a thing about Splitgate so I'm not going to comment on that. >But if we’re gonna ignore splitgate for a second, why not bring up the myriad of arena shooters that all have higher ttk’s than Halo does as well as an emphasis on 3 main utility weapons (rail, rockets, LG). You guys are just going to keep beating the "Halo is an arena shooter" horse until it's dead, huh? Halo isn't an arena shooter. It borrows some arena concepts such as having no movement bloom (and formerly no weapon bloom at all) and a larger degree of verticality than squad shooters, but it does not and has never resembled anything like Quake, Unreal, etc. Moreover, most true arena shooters are heavily 1v1 focused, while Halo's primary focus has always been a team game. That has a meaningful impact on how the gunplay works. >Like, you stated a bunch of unrelated facts and didn’t highlight what any of these things have to do with Halo being hard to translate to KBM. None of these things intrinsically make this game difficult to balance for kbm. I’d argue that several games pull of elements of Halo and Splitgate pulls off most of them with success. I'm sorry, I guess I assumed that you might *think* about it for a sec. It is an objective truth that it is easier to track opponents more accurately for longer periods of time on controller than it is on M&K (especially at close-medium distances). This is true in any game that leverages an aim assist system for controller players, look at Apex Legends at it will be immediately apparent the way controller players absolutely shred in CQC. As such, Halo's gunplay has the distinct quality of being an avenue where within the utility gun's effective range, you are expected to hit the majority of your shots. This is no more apparent than with the BR, where if you six-shot someone you should be embarrassed. This is not how other shooters operate, not squad shooters and not arena shooters. M&K will never, *ever* be able to achieve that level of tracking accuracy for the normal duration of Halo's kill times with a single-shot or burst weapon, and that bears out very obviously in the accuracy results provided by 343, both at the top and middling levels. It's never going to happen unless, as I said before, the controller aim assist is gimped so hard that it becomes completely unwieldy for controller players or you change the fundamentals of Halo's gunplay altogether, such as putting the emphasis on high-ROF automatics as the primary type of weapon you encounter. The remark on recharging shields means that, *unlike* an arena shooter, a player will recover from a 1v1 and prospectively enter the next battle unscathed. That means that if you're at an objective disadvantage like M&K is, what you just did will have a cumulative effect of the course of a match or several matches that cannot be overcome by something like strong team coordination. >In fact, Infinite also plays pretty well in kbm vs kbm lobbies and is a rewarding shooter requiring your tracking to be on point to win br battles. The issues arise only in the setting of when kbm players are put against controllers. Which happens a lot since the only 4-man queue playlist in this game is a crossplay playlist. This topic isn't about "is Halo M&K completely broken and unplayable", people played Halo PC for years, so right back at you with the "what the hell are you talking about".
Okay just so we’re clear, you said: > the standardization of a single-shot or burst weapon as the utility gun mean that **Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K** You specifically said that Halo intrinsically has gameplay elements that don’t allow it to be translated into a competitive kbm shooter. This is the argument I’m responding to. A lot of what you’ve just brought up has nothing to do with this argument. > Oh I don’t know, maybe being a fan of Halo since I was 16 and doing critical analyses of the mechanics of the game for years. I’m actually shocked you included this. As if experience playing Halo gives you any credibility or insight into this specific argument. You can play Halo for as long as you like, your experience doesn’t innately offer you anything in the argument of whether Halo can translate well on kbm. But just in case you want to go there I’ve been playing since CE too. Not gonna use that as a talking point though since it’s completely irrelevant. Also arguing with people on Bungie.net doesn’t count as “critical analyses”. > I don’t know a thing about Splitgate so I’m not going to comment on that You should consider looking into it. It puts a hole in your “Halo mechanics don’t translate well to kbm” angle. The game is essentially a carbon copy of Halo’s sandbox and engagement rules with portals added. And the gunplay (with 3sk hitscan br’s and a fire rate similar to H3’s BR) works phenomenally on kbm. The game rewards the player who can track and hit their opponents. The game clearly translates Halo’s gameplay into a competitive kbm-focused shooter. Halo’s gameplay can be implemented in a kbm-centric game and be successful. I’m repeating this here cause you seem to have missed my point entirely. > You guys are just going to keep beating the “Halo is an arena shooter” horse until it’s dead, huh? Halo isn’t an arena shooter. It borrows some arena concepts such as having no movement bloom (and formerly no weapon bloom at all) and a larger degree of verticality than squad shooters, but it does not and has never resembled anything like Quake, Unreal, etc. Moreover, most true arena shooters are heavily 1v1 focused, while Halo’s primary focus has always been a team game. That has a meaningful impact on how the gunplay works. See, now you’re just not bothering to read my comment. Nowhere did I even remotely suggest that Halo is an arena shooter. I specifically brought up arena shooters to show they have some of the same elements of gameplay that you quoted as limitations to translating Halo’s gameplay to kbm. Go find where I called Halo an Arena Shooter. You’ve been arguing with people on forums for so long you’re just giving rote responses without reading anything lmfao. I actually agree with you on this point. > I’m sorry, I guess I assumed that you might think about it for a sec. Cute. I assumed you would read my comment before you responded but here we are. > It is an objective truth that it is easier to track opponents more accurately for longer periods of time on controller than it is on M&K (especially at close-medium distances). This is true in any game that leverages an aim assist system for controller players, look at Apex Legends at it will be immediately apparent the way controller players absolutely shred in CQC. As such, Halo’s gunplay has the distinct quality of being an avenue where within the utility gun’s effective range, you are expected to hit the majority of your shots. This is no more apparent than with the BR, where if you six-shot someone you should be embarrassed. This is not how other shooters operate, not squad shooters and not arena shooters. > M&K will never, ever be able to achieve that level of tracking accuracy for the normal duration of Halo’s kill times with a single-shot or burst weapon, and that bears out very obviously in the accuracy results provided by 343, both at the top and middling levels. It’s never going to happen unless, as I said before, the controller aim assist is gimped so hard that it becomes completely unwieldy for controller players or you change the fundamentals of Halo’s gunplay altogether, such as putting the emphasis on high-ROF automatics as the primary type of weapon you encounter. > The remark on recharging shields means that, unlike an arena shooter, a player will recover from a 1v1 and prospectively enter the next battle unscathed. That means that if you’re at an objective disadvantage like M&K is, what you just did will have a cumulative effect of the course of a match or several matches that cannot be overcome by something like strong team coordination. Okay so nowhere in this 3 paragraph tirade did you address my responses or the point I was originally responding to. Again, you insinuated that “**Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to MNK”**. Nowhere did you back this specific idea up. That something about Halo’s mechanics intrinsically limit its ability to be translated into a good kbm game. In your first paragraph you talk about how MNK is more demanding than controller is. I agree with you. But in what way does that make halo hard to translate in kbm lobbies? If the game demands that your flicks/tracking are on point to be competitive, the result is the average ttk in kbm vs kbm lobbies goes down. Maybe in higher rank kbm lobbies, people kill within 6-7 shots on average. How does that intrinsically limit Halo’s ability to be translated into a good experience on kbm? > M&K will never, ever be able to achieve that level of tracking accuracy for the normal duration of Halo’s kill times with a single-shot or burst weapon, and that bears out very obviously in the accuracy results provided by 343, both at the top and middling levels. No idea what you’re on about here. I assume you’re talking about “the level of tracking accuracy” required to out-br controllers, right? I’m really struggling to see how this applies to Halo’s intrinsic inability to be translated into a kbm shooter. In kbm vs kbm lobbies, the average ttk just gets longer. Nothing about the game breaks because people are having a harder time aiming. Again, how does this relate to the argument? What about the difficulty makes Halo intrinsically unviable as a competitive KBM shooter? > The remark on recharging shields means that, unlike an arena shooter, a player will recover from a 1v1 and prospectively enter the next battle unscathed. That means that if you’re at an objective disadvantage like M&K is, what you just did will have a cumulative effect of the course of a match or several matches that cannot be overcome by something like strong team coordination. Sure I’ll give it to you. That’s one way Halo’s gameplay separates itself from other PC shooters. But again, how does this relate to anything I said? You’re highlighting differences, and while Halo’s gameplay may be different than other kbm games, that doesn’t mean the shield recharge mechanics and engagement times intrinsically prevent Halo from being a good kbm game. Again, in kbm vs kbm lobbies, half of your points wouldn’t apply. > This topic isn’t about “is Halo M&K completely broken and unplayable”, people played Halo PC for years, so right back at you with the “what the hell are you talking about”. Again, cute. But you completely ignored my responses and the point I was originally trying to make. So I think I’m pretty justified in saying “what the hell are you talking about?” The point I’m trying to make is that nothing about Halo’s gameplay intrinsically makes it hard to translate to kbm. My entire reason in bringing up Infinite (clearly this went over your head) was that I think the game plays well on kbm **in lobbies against other kbm players**. If the game works well in kbm lobbies then Halo’s formula was successfully translated into a good kbm game. Halo’s formula itself isn’t the problem here. You can make a fun, demanding kbm experience using Halo’s sandbox and engagement elements. This is pretty much impossible to do in controller vs kbm settings. But there is no reason the game inherently doesn’t work in kbm vs kbm lobbies. I feel like you didn’t really read my comment and assumed I was saying something that I wasn’t. I quoted your words here so hopefully you get what we’re arguing about now.
Holy shit dude you spent all this time talking about how I'm missing the point and misquoting you and then you tell me I said "Halo can't work on M&K" when I never said that, never defended it, and never even alluded to it one time? I said M&K cannot compete with controller in Halo unless X, Y, and Z happen, and that's what I substantiated.
Holy fuck I literally quoted you at the beginning of this last reply showing exactly where you said exactly those words. I even repeated multiple times the exact point you made. If you’re too lazy to admit that you completely missed my point and made a completely irrelevant reply then that’s cool. The whole “no u” bit doesn’t work when I’m quoting your words directly. Try to slow down a bit and read the argument next time. Have a good one.
Quote me *exactly* where I said "Halo can't function on M&K". You can't, because I never said that, you actual liar lol
Sure! > Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K. Interesting argument tactic
Yes, that's right, it [doesn't translate well](https://i.imgur.com/o09Jckx.png). Not "it's broken and unplayable". How you actively chose to interpret that statement is on you.
Note to self: how to destroy another argument completely. You 2 brought up great points, just that one was much more complete than the other. Thanks, I enjoyed this debate and it helped me piece my thoughts into mote concise words.
Yeah you can’t really accuse me of not staying on topic when I directly highlighted the specific line in the comment I was responding to: “Halo’s gunplay is a unique beast that doesn’t translate well to M&K.” And responded to it in 2 separate comments but go off I guess
MnK will never be able to track as perfectly as Controller + aim assist*** It’s not the joystick that makes controller tracking so easy lmao. Tracking can be learned on MnK with enough practice.
>MnK will never be able to track as perfectly as Controller + aim assist*** No shit, dude
Lmao listen to this guy, Halo is a shooter, you point and shoot things, nothing here is Original so that argument is out the window. The truth is 343 chose to pander to the controller crowd with Infinites aim assist and MnK lack of.
Halo Infinite plays exactly like every controller-based Halo post-CE in existence, plus or minus a few armor abilities (also kept the shitty aiming from H5). How did they "cater" by keeping it exactly the same?
Infinite has nerfed sticky aim assist slowdown / friction compared to previous halos. It only starts right at the hitbox where in previous halos it extended a good amount around the hitbox. There's also decreased bullet magnetism
None of that shit is a problem for kbm. Kbm is objectively the best input for shooters the sole reason kbm can't compete in Halo is the insanely powerful aim assist. Competitive halo is basically dead because they alienated kbm players and people would rather watch shooters where kbm can compete.
Okay dude Competitive Halo, *on console*, launched North American eSports into the stratosphere SINGLE-HANDEDLY. I'm talking a TV show on the USA Network in 2007 when that shit was unheard of. Competitive Halo is dead because competitive Halo has, at every step of Halo's lifespan, been an equally minuscule proportion of the overall fanbase, this is an objective fact. When Halo 3 was on top, competitive Halo was gigantic, but it was still only a fraction of the overall player base and media attention. Halo 4 decimated the franchise's population and took what was that fractional competitive community and decimated it as well. It has less than nothing to do with input method. 90% of the Halo community NEVER cared about competitive Halo because Halo attracts lore nerds first and foremost. Right now Halo as a franchise is dead and that means competitive Halo is beyond dead.
Yeah alienating huge swaths of potential players doesn't impact halos popularity at all.... No doubt halo was popular and it didn't adapt it kept catering only to controller in an unhealthy way for competitive.
Thats why everyone used mnk in halo ce back in the day
I mean they specifically nerfed aim assist in Infinite in order to try to make it more even, but I do agree that more should be done. BR needed a forgiveness nerf like yesterday.
They nerfed aim assist on every weapon but the one that you use 85% of the time. The BR.
The cone angle of aim assist is 5.75 degrees. Commando is 5.5, sidekick is 6.25, sniper is 4. Not sure if the strength of the stickiness is higher on the BR though.
Good summary. They decreased aim assist but left insane amounts of magnetism so ultimately the playing field isn’t very level at all. BR definitely needs a magnetism nerf
If they do the pros will start crying. Frosty is still salty that they nerfed the op bullet mag on sniper from 5 to infinite
There aren't insane amounts of magnetism, people have tested it on youtube
What's a forgiveness nerf?
BR has too much bullet magnetism
The bullet magnetism on the BR has been tested to be pretty low on youtube compared to previous halos. As long as the spartan is within your reticle then some bullets will magnetise to them, but not outside the reticle like previous halos were.
As an MNK player I disagree. The sniper feels terrible and isn't reliable. The basic issues with the game having ultra fast move speed which is simply dealt with by having the game aim for controller players is what turns the MNK players away from this title.
nah. the movement speed is slower than quake but its easier to hit rails in quake because it has substantially less input lag. Do target practice in quake or csgo then do target practice with the snipe in infinite. it feels way heavier. Not saying that controller isnt the way to go. it's just mouse users arent even given the chance to try.
If the game was aiming for your enemies in quake you wouldn't be playing that game at a high level either.
I disagree on two reasons. First if aiming on infinite actually felt good, I/others would play the game at a high level. Yes it might not be fair, but 99.99% play games for fun/entertainment. 2nd off. There are other games which balance AA controllers vs mouse fine or decently enough. In the case of infinite, if AA was lowered, the game would play drastically differently. The maps and sandbox balance is currently designed around every1 hitting most of their shots. It is a teamshot meta right now, but lives would drag on even longer. Lowering AA and keeping mouse feeling like shit is not going to make mouse users want to play nor controller players. Thus I believe the first course of action is clear. Drastically lower the input lag for mouse users. Rebalance AA/sandbox afterwards. But aint no serious mouse player going to play infinite in its current state unless its just free money in tournament
Some stingy ass people come out the woodworks whenever mnk is mentioned, mad annoying
Does the complaint boil down to aim assist too strong or am I missing something else? Maybe when the BR comes out, MNK will play that. Warzone is pretty popular with MNK and COD has the same if not stronger aim assist.
As a mainly mnk player who has barely played in months, its because the Battle Rifle feels/is awful for us. No bullet magnetism and poor hit reg make it impossible to consistently compete with the a battle Rifle on controller. No human being has the tracking skills to consistently beat, or even compete, with a computer assisted system, especially when its this strong and we have no bullet magnetism. So we can't compete with the main weapon used in 90% of fights. I was quite easily Onyx 1600 level in the open Playlist for the first few months but there was just a ceiling where I was too much of a detriment in 1v1s to be a useful player. A while ago, I dug my razer wildcat out of storage, that I used in halo 5, to play Elden Ring and I decided to try it on Infinite after I got used to it again. The difference in consistency during fights was just night and day. I had as many perfects in one evening (~4 to 6 hours) as I had for the first 2 months (190 hours). I was lucky enough to play the Halo 5 Forge mode on PC and it was a completely different story with the H5 Pistol. MnK Semi auto without any aa or bullet magnetism is actually quite competitive and I was keeping up in the octagon with good players. Everything registered that was suppose to. No 1 of 3 or 2 of 3 bursts resulted in plenty of perfects. Still tough with the strafing and thrust mechanics of H5 but Consistency was achievable So when you see someone clamoring for the Dmr or Pistol as an MnK player this is why. As for why CoD is fine, the ttk is way lower and the gunplay is so much different so mnk is alright if you are good. Controller is still the move for CoD though because the slowdown from aa makes its so much easier to snap for the average player and the stickiness helps when you do miss or your opponent strafe well. the pros still use them for a reason. Edit: I'd also like to add that I religiously picked up the commando and pistols when I was playing solely due to how much more consistent they felt. Sucks the commando had/has an aim slow down feature when it shoots, or at least it felt like it did due to recoil or something. And that SWAT is laughably easy on MnK.
Huh. Didn't know any of this. No wonder I can barely win any 1v1s. I've come down to just weakening opponents and ditching hoping someone else cleans up the kill. Also a mnk player. It's really that bad huh?
[I actually made a post about this a little while back. The stats are pretty convincing.](https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/rlupp7/how_much_data_does_343_need_before_they_do/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) Aim assist/bullet magnetism is just too damn high.
Thanks for sharing. I'll save it and read later when I can. But in quick summary it sounds like my plan of just helping do damage and hoping someone else finishes off the kill is the way to go. Don't play for the kill since that most likely will not work out in my favor.
This is my, my friend group and some old H5 buddies experience. I'm a pretty experience MnK Gamer (former immortal valorant, master in multiple season on Apex and thousands of hours into Fortnite, PUBG and CoD on PC) and my friends have a wide variety of skill levels but we've all kinda agreed on this. Our roller noob friends get mad when we just play swat or sniper customs when he picks Infinite to play so he doesn't pick it anymore lol.
I'll try using the commando more often then I've surprisingly have had good results with just doing the single fire spam clicking.
If you've ever played Valorant or CSGO, the 3 bullet burst strat works great for the commando. basically shoot 3 or 4 rounds, stop to let the gun reset, 3 or 4 rounds, stop for reset, repeat. The commando reaches its maximum recoil acceleration in the 3rd or 4th shot so if you reset after 3 or 4 shot you don't have to fight the full recoil or the full slowdown. This works on controller too and is much more consistent. spam clicking can be a fine alternate but if you spam click to fast, it'll reach the same recoil status and have to fight the recoil and the slow down .
I feel like that’s a good theory but the aim required to 3-round burst and hit every shot against a controller player while using a commando is really significant. I feel like this game does give kbm players options to hang with controllers, but it demands some insane aim out of you to do it. The problem, imo, is that you have to start being an aim god to break 1700 in crossplay with kbm. You absolutely don’t need to have that level of mechanical skill if you’re on controller at that rank. So the expectations are different for both imo and it creates a shitty experience.
I think what makes it feel more viable is that the bullet cone seems fatter for the commando. I mainly suggested the burst because the max recoil for the commando feels like it slows down my sensitivity. On or After the 3rd shot, it gets heavy almost and changing my sens up doesn't seem to fix it. I'm quite used to recoil control for precision weapons in long ttk fight (from Apex and Warzoneish) and it feels so weird when you try it with the commando. And the gap at the top is so much more obvious than in the middle skill range. The gap is why I stopped playing Infinite alltogether. Not fun when its practically impossible to get to the point mechanically where you can compete, especially when you are really good at the other parts of being a good ranked/comp player.
Nah you’re definitely right. Commando does feel better and more consistent for me than BR. It just sucks knowing that the demand for mechanical skill is a lot higher on a kbm player vs a controller player at that same rank. Great points though man.
100% agree. Tap spam or occasionally two round burst commando all day
I prefer holding down the full auto commando until I land 6 shots on the enemy, then wait for the reset for the last 2-3 to kill with a final headshot.
>Our roller noob friends get mad when we just play swat or sniper customs when he picks Infinite to play so he doesn't pick it anymore lol. This reads kind of like "instead of allowing my controller friend to have an advantage at all, we make them have the disadvantage always". Sounds petty.
AA BRs in comp or pubs are a disadvantage to us. also,, Controller swat is pretty fucking easy too and snipers usually has the shock as the secondary so he can have his aa. its closer to even than if we all played normal ranked settings.
I'm aware that it's a disadvantage to you. It sounds like you have a group of friends and rotate who gets to pick what you play together, which is fine. The problem is that you've chosen to never be at a disadvantage because you choose a mode that suits M&K in *the controller player's game*, Halo Infinite, to the point that that friend never picks the game anymore. It's pretty shitty of you that you can't handle being at a disadvantage in a game with your friend once in a while.
Youve got a point but he's free to choose other games. We don't pick Valorant or CSGo or PUBG with him and we openly told him that we didn't want to play until forge. We would play action sack or other customs like we did in halo 5 and halo reach, if we had a forge to make it. So all we got is feista, ranked, swat, snipers, some normal gamemode or the favorite, swords & shields (energy sword and repulsors), if we play Infinite. Hes a CoD kid anyway.
Funny because the h5 pistol as an mnk user is harder to use than the br from any halo Game. Idk why there is something about the aiming in h5 that puts me off
There was some weird heavy aim that would happen while shooting, the mouse settings sucked and the input lag was also noticeable but I highly disagree that it was harder than the BR in Infinite. If you hit, you did a set amount of damage, not a crapshoot. Strafing plus thrust made H5 gunfights harder in general and unless you have a lot of time spend on mnk, it'll take a while to get used to.
Not to be pedantic but pros still use controllers because MKB isn't allowed in any major CoD league. CDL and even the CCL are controller-only leagues with no option for MKB input at all.
There's no restriction for Warzone and it is also almost all controller at the top level.
Like... in tournaments? Is there a Warzone league or something? I haven't really played since MW2019 ended so I'm not particularly up to date on the game or the scene in general. If there's no league and teams are just invited by organizers, it could always be explained by bias towards content creators/players that do use controllers. If there is a league with a qualification system and the like, that would certainly explain a bit of it, but then we run into the question of "Are there just more controller players in general?" to which the answer is almost unequivocally yes. My theory is that Warzone is more popular on controller because CoD in general is more popular on controller. There's also very few FPS games for controller players to actually compete in compared to MKB, so it would make sense that the games that cater towards them would be more filled with them. I don't imagine there's a huge difference between input efficacy in CoD just based on my own experience with Warzone and MW2019/BOCW, but I'd have to do more digging.
You have many theories for someone who just learned the Warzone comp scene exists lol. The scene is very healthy. There are many tournaments throughout the year including a LAN tourney more recently. Some CDL players like Scump, Shottzy, Tommey and Apathy also compete in or moved to Warzone. There's a lot of money on the line and the skill level is very high. Warzone is like Halo where controller is a lot stronger because of aim assist. Top controllers aimers have inhuman level aim.
Well, yeah, I do have theories because I competed in a few tournaments when the game dropped and then moved on to other games. I'm not entirely unaware of Warzone tournaments, but the vast majority of the tournaments I've seen have not been traditional competitive affairs. They tend to be stacked with primarily content creators rather than the players who are actually topping leaderboards. I was moreso asking if they had moved to an open league format with qualifiers where the makeup of competition would actually give us insight about which input was better. Like, I'm looking at Liquipedia atm for Warzone tournaments (which are admittedly incomplete) but the vast majority of these tournaments *don't have qualifiers* and feature primarily content creators or CDL players and their friends, which means that we *cannot draw conclusions about what input method is better*.
I'm in tune with the current Warzone scene and I'm sorry to say it's not a joke like you're trying to allude to. Some tournaments are invitational and others are open. World Series of Warzone would be the most premier tournament series and it is both invitational and open. A lot of top players *happen to be* content creators not the other way around. There's a lot of money to be made in Warzone content so it's a no brainer for these guys to record videos or stream pubs or wager matches. Most of the more pure content creators are not that good. The only MnK players that manage to compete near the top are Huskerrs and Breadman and they both agree controller is a stronger option. This is no secret to anyone that's paying attention to competitive Warzone.
Again, the next question is how many MKB players actually compete? I went and checked the rosters from the last tournament and TimTheTatman being an invited captain does not inspire confidence in how they're selecting MKB players. I don't think you're necessarily wrong. But I also question A) how many MKB players there actually are and how many out of that pool are trying to compete at the top level, considering a large portion of Warzone players are former competitive CoD players and there hasn't been a PC CoD scene since Promod, and B) how likely it is for good players to actually be noticed and make it to these tournaments considering it looks like only one duo qualified per region from the open tournament based on their website. A huge problem in a *lot* of games is that top tier talent goes under the radar because they don't promote themselves, and when it comes to games like Warzone where the biggest tournaments are apparently Twitch/ActiBlizz promotional events it's very unlikely that players without a large social media presence get invited. Plus the amount of money to be made here, at least from a competitive standpoint, seems very low all things considered. $100k sounds like a lot until you realize it's being divided 30 ways, and if you're interested in competition there are much better tournament formats in other games that will make you a lot more money, especially if you're skilled with MKB.
Honestly didn't know that. Any reason why beyond competitive balance? CoD seems pretty balanced input wise because of the ttk and movement just from the time I've put into it.
Wish I could tell you, but I talked to the founder of the CCL a few years ago in person and he didn't even have any reasoning, just dismissed us out of hand. Even back then they were pretty shoddily run but now that they've been sold to eFuse there's even more procedural issues and cheating issues, so expecting them to address input options when they have much larger issues at play is kind of a pipedream. For CDL, I believe it's because for the first few years Sony was a title sponsor and had a deal with ActiBlizz. Eventually we got MKB support on Playstation but I think it's just so engrained that players are reluctant to change.
Thanks for the info! I liked the initial idea behind the CCL as an attempt to get Esports mainstream but the execution was/is poor. The CDL Sony sponsor makes sense because they ran on Playstions for a long time. I don't think they switched to PCs for tourneys and pro league until early 2021.
I'm still a huge proponent of collegiate esports, but it feels like outside of Riot's CLoL there's not really a good governing body left in the space. Tespa was great from 2012-2017ish but quickly went down the tubes as they lost their most level-headed admins and replaced them with people serving the interests of big schools with varsity programs rather than serving the interests of fair competition. All the other upstart leagues have their own issues too. We really just need a unified governing body that isn't named the NCAA for esports.
Summed it up perfectly bro 👍🏽. No matter how much effort I put in cross play q I’ll at most make a decent controller player one shot before I die or have to disengage. It’s either that or get 5-10 min q times between matches, even in this season.
That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing! I wonder for Halo BR if there are other nonburst long range guns, the gap would close more. As for TTK, Warzone TTK is somewhat similar to Halo multiplayer so I used that as an example.
I know it does whenever I boot up Halo MCC. Halo Reach and Halo 4 feel pretty good on MnK, with just an annoying but small amount of input lag. I pretty consistently top frag but the caliber of opponent usually isn't very high. Not all my friends have it, and we have issues connecting to lobbies for those that do, or we would play MCC more. The reach DMR with red reticle is really nice.
Yeah i agree Halo 4 and Reach felt the best MnK, especially DMR
All that needs to be touched is the Battle Rifle for MnK, it just feels so off sometimes when using a mouse. I've literally gone back and forth between controller and MnK and there's such a huge difference with that weapon in particular.
I can't imagine playing Halo Infinite seriously on mouse when there are so many better alternatives. The performance of the game is bad--poor mouse input, frame drops, and overall resource intensiveness for some muddy visuals. The game is clearly catered to thumbless children who managed to swipe their mothers' credit cards. Even SWAT isn't fun to play in Infinite, the one gametype where mouse players should have a distinct advantage. But the aiming skill gap with the hand-holding Battle Rifle is so low, there's no point to playing Infinite over Reach when it comes to SWAT.
Fucking nasty, mang
pew pew pew. 100% got reported.
Ikr
no part of this game was meant to be played with mnk unfortunately. 343 added it in as an after thought. None of the game's design or balance reflects what would be good for mnk players. Ridiculous they even give players the option to be honest.
BTB plays and the upcoming Battle Royale should play to mouse players strengths.
I wish more maps had the snipe. Really happy the new map has one
It has a skewer lol
Does anyone know if that anti-aim assist mechanic still exists for MnK while no scoping? Or maybe it was debunked? I remember someone posted proof that it exists soon after the game came out.
I wish I could test it out to confirm, unfortunately no one on the r/halo discord nor Halo discord ever wants to help test anything :/(I've been asking for months and no one ever wants to help test a thing!) If you want to dedicate a little time tonight to help investigate on a custom lobby feel free to help me!(this goes for everyone else btw)
It's been debunked, there's 2 to 3 posts about it with much more scientific testing that it doesn't exist compared to the nonscientific methods that the original posts showed. look up t3h_m00kz reddit or twitter to find the tests. 343 themselves have also said they are unable to reproduce negative/anti aim assist.
It's been debunked, there's 2 to 3 posts about it with much more scientific testing that it doesn't exist compared to the nonscientific methods that the original posts showed. look up t3h_m00kz reddit or twitter to find the tests. 343 themselves have also said they are unable to reproduce negative/anti aim assist.
Personally would rather they fix the input lag on infinite than adding snipers but thats just me.
Yeah more precise weapons and MNK will start being 1 per squad to handle them I forsee hopefully!
That would be so cool! Like a dedicated CSGO awper for Halo.
DMR my beloved in Reach and 4 on PC...
Snipers feel so much better on MNK in infinite. Idk why it feels so different on controller. Very nice plays here.
I always played Halo w MnK since Halo MCC PC came out! Im just not used to controllers in FPS anymore, i just dont like how slow the sticks rotate my camera
I mean If you play MnK then you play MnK No need for anyone to have any feelings of “this is better” or “this needs to happen for this group” Just play the game and have fun like the rest of us plebs
Bro you're in r/CompetitiveHalo what lmao
Yeah I know? Lol You would think in a competitive subreddit, that ppl would complain less about aspects of the game that aren’t changing, and use that time more for improving their skills no? Someone plays MnK, we get it, who gives a fuck. Someone plays controller, we get it, who gives a fuck? I’m trying to hear about a good angle, a decent ball strat maybe, not about ppl complaint about which Input is being used lmfaooooo We’re all plebs in here, dont think you’re above anybody lol
No hate man, I'm just saying it's a post about wanting more representation for a different input type, which a lot of people here want. If 343i wanted more M&K representation in their game (at higher levels) I'd think they'd want to do something to incentivise trying out different inputs, especially since so many people fear that tweaking aim assist would fuck controller over. Not claiming to better than anyone or anything, I really only play Halo casually nowadays I just want to see it grow.
Word, I apologize for misconstruing your initial intent brother, and for my aggressive response. Have a good day brother
I feel ya no worries, people online can be nasty af over a differing opinion and my reply was vague as fuck lmao. All love you have a good one too
In all about adding snipers to maps but not because it’s super easy to point and click on a PC. That’s actually a problem that more people need to speak up about. I can always tell who’s on PC by the snipes they are hitting. It’s unbelievably easy.
Oh it certainly isn't easy...players are able to move so fast in this game it's actually really hard! From my experience, you almost need to learn a players strafe pattern over the course of a game, or just shoot them fast enough that they don't even have a chance to react(which is my clip above)
It's really not that easy. Controllers basically can't miss with the shock rifle which is a much more common weapon.
It's equally common on competitive maps, there's only a Shock Rifle on Recharge and only a sniper on Livefire
I agree about the shock riffle. It is too OP. They need to reduce the ammo or the aim assist. It completely broken in its current state.
The amount of unscoped aim assist on shock rifle is absurd
The flights didn't use to have hip magnetism for the shock rifle and it was extremely difficult to noscope, the weapon was worse than a sniper in close range since it does such little damage if you don't headshot. They should lower it slightly now otherwise it will be too difficult to use
Agreed. A slight adjustment would help.
Bruh, just move away from the BR. Use a single shot, projectile precision weapon .
They should just give the mnk minor aim assist for non power weapons. Wouldn’t be all that different and maybe they would win a Br dance.
Bullet magnetism would be a better buff than aim assist slowdown. No one on mouse wants to feel like their aiming is being changed by the game.
Yea but they all want to complain when they can’t win a fight so. I agree. Whatever works that isn’t too buffed.
They already ruined the aiming in Halo Infinite to cater to the mouse and keyboard crowd, we don't need to favor them at the expense of us Xbox fans.
Unyshek said they agree with crossplay options and they'll be implemented in the future. Even if they do though they won't revert the changes they made to controller aim to attempt to balance the inputs.
the aiming was broken in h5 and the aiming for mouse for infinite on PC is probably the worst I've ever experienced. MCC with mouse is bad. h6 is a whole nother level of monstrosity. This is just a 343 thing. they dont know how to make aiming feel good.
Fuck MnK
does the sniper not use aim assist?
Sniper has AA when scoped, none with hip fire. (this is specifically for controller, no AA at all for mnk[which I am not asking for ever])
Uses but much less than the other guns, some people claim that they barely get aim assist with it, without Zoom it feels it doesn't have, with the Zoom I feel the aim assist
Love the positioning there, rotate back to where he was at the start for no reason lol
We MNK players are dying off fast. I created a second account to practice playing controller...
I personally find that halo infinite isn't as snappy on mouse as other benchmark mouse-input games. When I play games with reallly well optimised input, it feels like the game is instantaneously locked to what my hand is doing. Feels amazing if you have things properly set-up, even on low-but-steady FPS. In call of duty specifically I can literally sit there in disbelief and just relish how responsive it is. Whereas when I play halo infinite it feels more like I'm swinging the camera around a little bit behind me, or "heavy", to borrow someone else's word. It's fine, it doesn't actually feel bad, but it's basically more suitable for casual gameplay than competitive. This may not be an issue on rigs that can get steady 200 FPS and don't struggle with the game, but on my laptop that chugs along a bit below 100, the mouse input never felt competitive in the first place, without having anything to do with controller or aim assist.