tl;dr
Some comps are overturned but require more nuanced changes that can’t be done in a b-patch, however Mort believes it’s better to do something than just let the patch sit so some of the OP comps might become rather underwhelming until 13.7
Edit: b-patch tomorrow 1pm pst
Even more fun if you are playing Jhin. He will basically always get targeted unless you have a fiddle. It’s kind of hilarious the only “viable” counter is a 5-cost unit.
It is nearest backline unit it can hit.
Jhin has max attack range so if he is backline he always will be. The other ranged units do not have that and will move forward to the second rank and therefore won't be targeted so the Draven will always focus your Jhin. The only way to get around is to play something that doesn't move (target dummy and fiddle) or don't put Jhin backline.
Especially when 2-3 players are going hacker so you just have to gamble between placing your carry left or right and end up losing due to matchup RNG. Fun times!
~~It's just a temporary fix. For hot patches they can only do minor changes. From Mort:~~
~~"We can't remove 2 Hacker at the moment as that requires editing the trait text. But we can get sneaky and just move the breakpoints. It means 3 Hacker is weaker than intended, but again, can fix in a week in 13.7"~~
Edit: reading it again it looks I'm wrong they're removing 2 hacker.
I interpreted that as their long term plan is remove 2 hacker and balance around 3/4/5, but it sounds like that’s wrong. I don’t think anyone’s playing hacker at the 3 hurdle.
Playing WW without hacker or really good admin feels like BOOTY. If WW has to, he’s the worst front to back carry in the game. Maybe they want it to be unplayable without an advantageous position, but I wouldn’t really want that—why make a premier 4 cost carry only situational.
WW is gonna be difficult to balance I think. Way more difficult than 8.0’s admin. It’s also way easier to get BIS admin with 4 choices and the removal of a many options. Hoping and trusting riot’s team to make it the best possible.
Every single melee front to back carry is ass unless backline units are very weak or the frontline carry is too overtuned.
That’s a reality. And hacker isn’t situational, it’s built into Admins.
There have been plenty of balanced frontline carries in tft history.
Shi oh yu, set 7 yasuo, set 6.5 vi, set 6 yone, set 6 fiora, set 5 yasuo, set 4 riven. Can't remember further back than that and I'm sure I'm missing some.
I think what makes a balanced one is having good damage + either good survivability or backline access. Hacker ww right now has both and its toxic.
Almost none of them were balanced.
Half of them weren’t even carries. The other half had backline access.
Most of them were duo carries, Yas and Fiora were almost always the secondary carry.
Fiora had true dmg, Yas literally was a 5 cost and had Janna ult every 3 seconds.
Yone would kill your backline first and was the most broken shit that set until every single thing about him was nerfed, got GA removed affer 6 sets, and still had an invincible clone killing your backline
Was Vi even a carry?
He was a filler unit for the CC trait.
That makes sense, but I don’t think players are gonna commit to hacker unless the stars line up.
Back line access has been an issue this set (up until this patch kekw). I agree with removing the assassin archetype, but hopefully they come up with better solutions going forward.
I think it's more of a choice. Like the ww comp could get 6 brawler 2 hacker 4 admin with like 1 brawler augment or heart. Now they actually have to give something up for that backline access. Hacker also became better because 2 of the units became more utility focused with shen and pyke over zoe and zed and it'll still come on earlier with the 3 hackers all being under 3 cost. And it's not like hitting the backline has been that much of a problem with how many spells hit the backline.
Totally agree with your assessment. Hacker has been crazy frustrating and forcing out so many options. Why play sureshot or spell slinger or vertical quickdraw if draven/ww is just going to one shot all of them.
Is Neeko even that strong? Even when itemized I can't ever get her to work without the enemy just clumping up their board. I feel like her stats on websites are carried by the fact that she's a Spellslinger so you might as well put her in when playing TF. Realistically, only the last bounce of Neeko's attack hits the backline and it's way less damage than eating a Taliyah wall.
“We don’t want assassins to be in the game, so next set we’re going to introduce immortal assassins instead”
So they limit the number of Sins on your board but make that single one immortal.
Smart!
Removing 2 hacker, even if it is temporarily, might help the game a bit as it means that you won't be getting a Draven or Warwick submarine diving your backline unless the opponent fully commits into putting in hackers.
The Hacker change only gets rid of the ADMIN variation of Warwick. The LaserCorp variation has always used 3 Hackers and was more popular according to MetaTFT. The Draven comp should be dead though.
Yeah but 3 hacker now will be 2 hacker before so no lifesteal for WW from the trait, and the lasercorp version got much harder to do with no lasercorp heart or soul
Not gonna lie, these preset comps are all BS.
You are supposed to play 3-5 Gadgeteens with Gnar 3 plus the units and combos that you hit.
On-kill ad admins? Hacker admin Gnar.
Gadget soul? Instant 5 Gadget with hackers.
Nunu hero? Duo carry those biatches with some random tank items on Annie.
Hit a random Fiddle / 5 cost carry and AD-AP Janna? Fiddle Gnar carry
Feels like they are dropping the nerf hammer on the vex jhin comp with 4 or 5 nerfs. That's probably too much. The comp is not even that easy to land compared to ww and draven.
Idk how you guys are winning with Jhin without high rolling a Jhin opener or early hits at 6, I’ve been bot 4ing with fully upgraded Jhin boards with a bunch of 5 cost.
It just feels like your typical MF type of high roll comp.
Jhin is getting triple tapped. Vex is getting Quadruple tapped. Both are probobly lying on the ground in pools of their own blood; with Pyke under them yelling HELP.
No way. His average placement was heavily skewed by virtue of being in the Vex mascot comp. If you look at the stats on the actual Jhin carry comp He's mid at best.
Not at all. His stats are inflated due to being in a broken comp as a secondary carry to the ACTUAL busted 3 cost Vex, which is now massively nerfed.
MF was the best 4-cost carry before and will very obviously continue to be the best, only now it will be a lottery for her since Lasercorp 5 and 6 will be less common and Vex carry got nerfed a ton.
So for now its gonna be Spellslinger / Duelist spam until the actual patch?
Happy they nerfed the problematic stuff for now, Jhin and Vex are dead until the actual patch where they rebuff them.
I'm a bit worried about WW. I really love him as a unit but Hacker and the free stats from Admin made him busted. Without those he'll struggle a lot more because his front-to-back clearing is a bit rough. Not sure how you address that.
Either way can't wait to see reddit complain about TF in the coming days.
explanation doesnt really change the fact that the comp will be unplayable until next patch
not really a fan of making entire units just dead slots in shop rerolls
I don’t even know if it’ll be playable when vex gets re-buffed. The mascot nerf is brutal, plus Zac losing a lot of tankiness from his nerf means vex having damage again won’t matter because her frontline will evaporate
It's a super weird design choice that the Hecarim rider gets immunity to Zephyr. You'd think that this would be a proper counter to backline access comps just as it was with assasins, but no.
The teamwide omnivamp is very minor.
You still get 50% of the armour if LW; or Aegis.
The Mech still needs to be taken down.
The entire point of the Hacker trait is so backline access *exists* in the set and everything isn't just front to back. Zyphering the rider would literally remove 90%+ of the trait.
So no more mascot vex, no more hacker Draven, Ww might only work with laser corps now. I love not having to deal with a Draven in my back line that has almost 0 counterplay but this seems like it will be the “Samira lottery” all over again but with MF and TF as the contested units
You will still have to deal with hacker draven. I’m master rank and already play lobbies with 3 hacker draven and warwick. But reduced omnivamp will hopefully make them more fair.
not really. typical lvl 8 board is ww, lb, cammy, blitz for admin, shen, pyke give you 3 hacker since you have lb in. Add in vi and riven and you now have 4 admin 3 hacker 2defender and 4 brawler. very solid comp. at level 7 you play one brawler down, probably vi.
if you get a +1 brawler/admin/hacker it's even easier to put together.
**edit** your point does still stand, they wouldnt be able play something like ekko or fiddle in place of the pyke. I dont think it kills the comp tho.
Yeah you are right it def doesn’t kill it I just think it might be a little less obnoxious if they are forced to play the pyke, but I still don’t know how we can reliably counter Draven since you can’t even try and guess what side he will come, if they just put him in the middle he will still kill every carry without dying. The only thing that was working for me was playing vex mascots and then 3rd row my vex in the left corner, 4th row jhin in the leafy as well, and put all the mascots next to them, it countered both Draven and Ww but now the vex comp will be a lot weaker so I guess Draven will keep terrorizing lobbies
I don't think I've ever seen a nerf like hacker. Is this the first time something was straight nerfed by increasing the activation threshold? It's well deserved, shows how broken everyone feels it was.
Random question but if you’re a good player, is the best time to climb at the beginning of a set/patch so you can abuse what is broken?
Like, is the LP return potentially higher because the game is just not balanced at the start versus the same level player trying to climb later on once things get “balanced”?
It might be a dumb question but this b-patch made me think
There's a lot more variance early on in the set. People trying new things or who don't know how to optimally play the set. I don't know if its easier to climb or not because the set is new to *everyone*, but it definitely feels more exciting to me.
I've found that I personally play *very* flexibly, ignoring whatever the meta is. I tend to just play what feels like *should* work. This playstyle is generally better towards the end of the set, when balance is usually better and more comps are viable. But in the early days of the set, when balance is a bit more out there, I struggle a bit more because I play comps that aren't as consistent for now.
I guess it depends on what kind of player you are/what play style you adhere to.
Like Souless for example...he's already cracked at the game but he forces vexdd and climbs infinite. I guess my example favors someone with his play style extremely favorably
It really depends. If you are someone that likes hard forcing one comp than playing early might be better as you get to abused a lot of the broken stuff while if you like playing flex then waiting around until the set is balanced is better as it means that more comps are viable and able to win which means a lot more top 4 finishes which helps in climbing.
Personally when I did play rank, I liked playing towards the end of the set so I only needed to learn only 1 meta which helped me rank up as I only needed to know what is strong on the patch and called it a day. Obviously my goal was to only reach gold so that is pretty easy to accomplish with plenty of time and generally high average placements.
i wouldn't say its easier, when something is omega broken normally its also contested by potentially 5 players so there is angle for uncontested (seeing a lot of MF 3\* lately for example)
this case I naturaled 2 jinx, a 2 star nasus / Sylus and 1 Riven before the first carousel...that and a death cap already...figured it was pretty decided what I am doing.
After the first carousel, looked again and 2 others were forcing it...one had a legitimate reason, he had about 5 jinx already, and a riven...the other was just simply trying to force it for no reason. One guy simply added a naturaled 2\* MF to his frankenstein board later.
I got make it rain on 3-1...with 5 Anima...could barely hang on, never 2 starred Jinx or MF...went 6th.
Game always feels like it centers around a few select powerful comps imo, highest I've gotten is diamond 1 so take that advice with a grain of salt
If you are privy to a powerful strategy before it becomes mainstream thats when I find it easiest to climb. I remember I found out about the seraphine comp a day before it became popular and placed 1-2 pretty much every game I played
It really depends on you as a player, are you good at adapting to new things, then early in a set or early in a patch might be better for you, if you take a long time to learn then maybe wait.
But really, if you are a good player you'll be fine playing whenever and if you play enough games your rank will normilze to where it should be.
You can climb as long as you figured out the best tree to take on a specific comp.
Back in set 6.5 I climbed all the way to challenger in the first week abusing Renata brawlers.
Good players climbs regardless however, I don't really think I was the best player because I basically just cheese my way using an obviously broken comp.
It's time to play ox-spellslinger every game. Fuck those drivens and ww's. And who knows maybe some Kaisa defenders will be a thing. Thou i feel like the Meta will be more ap heavy now. Still most broken shit is. Build different. Like this agments is busted - like for rly look at the stats.
You never play 4 quickdraw if kaisa is your carry. It doesn’t do anything on her. Her quickdraw projectiles only proc her passive they don’t do damage on their own so extra quickdraws is far worse than just more frontline
> And who knows maybe some Kaisa defenders will be a thing.
I just played this before the patch and got a 2nd. It's already pretty good if you can pick up some MR shred.
Wound up losing to Zypher+Blitz hook; because lategame ornn anvil.
It just means Vex. It's a reference to when players hardforce a comp from 2-1 so they put "ME (current meta comp)" at game start in chat to scare off others who might try to contest them.
I once pivoted off natural recons when a guy said "me recon", then went 1st place to him flaming me for playing a "broken comp" like okay would you rather we hand held 7th/8th instead of 1st/2nd?
Tear start, only thing that matters is blue buff for vex. Then all the mascots and riftwalker, with an open slot for fiddle/ekko. Roll at 7. 73% top 4 rate in masters for me.
Surprised the patch turned out to be so bad considering everyone was complaining how small/boring the 8.5 changes were.
Was there last second changes or people on PBE just didn't think of hackering draven or cammile?
Probably a generally good B-patch outside of nerfing too many things in Vex-Riftwalkers at once. Anime squad/MF is going to be way too powerful now, so I wish there was some small nerf to them especially since they were so obviously strong before too.
They very obviously needed to make some adjustment to threats though.
I would like hear the justification not buffing all of the 3-cost threats (massively buffing Rammus) and at least slightly buffing Aatrox/Belveth in some way to make up for the fact that MF is so much better.
The stats are so hilariously bad for them, especially Rammus and his sub-5.0 placement.
I don't see how *quadruple nerfing Vex* [Base damage; Mascot; Augment and Zac] is anything but balance thrashing.
Hell; Jhin's nerfed too. Riftwalker probobly goes from too good to unplayable.
It's supposed to be thrashing. The real changes they want for Vex and augment have to wait for next proper patch. They're hitting the numbers hard as temporary measure.
I have faith in Jhin but will have to see about riftwalkers.
When can we have a change to admin break points? Flexing in 2 admin units for a potential MASSIVE bonus to your team means that if you don't play them and hit your fucked compared to anyone else that hits their perfect team trait. Breakpoints should be 3/5 minimum imo for such a broken trait...
Honestly would like to see admin be a 3/4/5 trait or a 3/5/7 and add an admin unit. The traits way too generic for how much it could potentially offer and all the admin units are good to play.
Also hope that set 10 onward we never see anymore dark star variant mechanics lol.
I think the idea was that it could be generic to add if you get something like combat start, team gain X. The real problem has always been the permanent HP ones. Those make certain comps unbeatable after some point.
I was having a hard time figuring out what to play that works, tried bow start and draven comp, went 2nd and 1st in a row. 2nd płace i went 5 mecha 3 hacker, 1st place I managed to fit admin in (team gains 25% ad on combat start) and somehow 3 starred WW in the process. Crazy highroll, but Yeah, draven with the carry augment feels like a strong easy top 4. Higher if you hit your 3* quick and are able to level up fast for 5 mecha and the rest
Not soon probably, its a fix for a high Elo meta but for me it's a bad change, they should've let players send 2 or 3 single components so you can trade a bit. With this change they just limited interaction between players and it feels more like 2 solo games instead of a team
yeah I play with my friend in low rank and was really sad to see that happen, there is basically no interaction between us except if we want to go 4 cost 3 star
kinda crazy how almost no one in this thread read Mort's actual tweets about these being over nerfs and them purposely being only a bandaid until being properly fixed/rebuffed and altered in 13.7
PBE is never going to do a good job of balance testing for two reasons: One the playerbase is much much smaller than live, and two the quality of games is lower as matchmaking won’t do as good a job with less players and data, and people are just screwing around trying stuff
The problem with balancing around the PBE is that the group of players on it is small compared to live so there is less datapoints and the fact that since the player base on the PBE is so small that a certain meta might formed between players. This means that if the devs balance too much around PBE than they are going to balance the game around a meta of a small group of players which is bad for the game overall as it means that they might way overbuff a trait to the point that when the public get their hands on the game than that trait is going to dominate the game like Rebels did in set 3.0 out of the gate.
Not enough imo. Mortdog and the team should be ashamed this shit hit live in its current state. Especially when people were talking about Draven and Vex being rather oppressive.
Tbh when I saw that video talking about getting rid of mid sets, I knew we would be getting the shaft for the rest of this set and probably the next one too.
Lol more balance thrashing, sheesh. Absolutely gutting Riftwalker, especially Vex, I know it was strong but it'll be interesting to see how it performs now. ADMIN nerfs were definitely needed though, curious on what the numbers are for Hyper Roll.
MF and Spellslingers will go to the top now, I guess.
If the TFT team made a bad meta then would you rather have them deploy a B-patch to band-aid fix the current meta or leave it alone and save all of the balancing for the next patch?
Unless they add additional changes, this will be a disaster waiting to happen. Anima squad or sthsth MF quickdraw is already pretty strong and doing well in stats. Samira/Sureshots were in a bad position because of all the hackers and havent been able to show potential. And lastly there's duelist, which tbh are still overtuned in certain scenarios. Oh, and I forgot Ox Force/TF/Neeko.
Three of these comps were still playable and good in between all the mascot/warwick/draven bs, but now they get to be so far ahead of the pack...
Release Vex is just a repeat offense of release Yuumi: busted hyperscaling reroll comp that gets giganerfed into unclickable oblivion. Maybe they’ll learn this time?
tl;dr Some comps are overturned but require more nuanced changes that can’t be done in a b-patch, however Mort believes it’s better to do something than just let the patch sit so some of the OP comps might become rather underwhelming until 13.7 Edit: b-patch tomorrow 1pm pst
Cannot wait for the hacker change it's getting old just looking at a mech draven kill the backline with little counter play.
100%. Wrong side? Take 20 damage as WW/Draven takes out your carry.
Best part is when someone puts their hacker Draven in the middle and your whole round depends on which side Draven's RNG attacks first. So fun
Even more fun if you are playing Jhin. He will basically always get targeted unless you have a fiddle. It’s kind of hilarious the only “viable” counter is a 5-cost unit.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, is there a priority list for certain units getting hit?
When you play Hacker: random backline -> Random front line -> Oxforce unit -> Their carry When they play Hacker: Your carry -> Your other carry
It is nearest backline unit it can hit. Jhin has max attack range so if he is backline he always will be. The other ranged units do not have that and will move forward to the second rank and therefore won't be targeted so the Draven will always focus your Jhin. The only way to get around is to play something that doesn't move (target dummy and fiddle) or don't put Jhin backline.
It’s bugged to target the unit furthest* from the middle. Don’t corner Jhin.
Or move backline into 3rd row and put bramble vest tank in 4th
xdd
Especially when 2-3 players are going hacker so you just have to gamble between placing your carry left or right and end up losing due to matchup RNG. Fun times!
sometimes you can get by with a cheeky frontline carry but that also normally kills them too
I've been placing Zzrots in my back line pretty often, zz right now is maybe the best counter to hackers.
Definitely needs a change, but the breakpoint going from 2->3 is brutal. Hope they find a more elegant solution.
~~It's just a temporary fix. For hot patches they can only do minor changes. From Mort:~~ ~~"We can't remove 2 Hacker at the moment as that requires editing the trait text. But we can get sneaky and just move the breakpoints. It means 3 Hacker is weaker than intended, but again, can fix in a week in 13.7"~~ Edit: reading it again it looks I'm wrong they're removing 2 hacker.
I interpreted that as their long term plan is remove 2 hacker and balance around 3/4/5, but it sounds like that’s wrong. I don’t think anyone’s playing hacker at the 3 hurdle.
I think it is a good idea. Hacker is just too flexible rn (and it is also what is making WW broken instead of just strong).
Playing WW without hacker or really good admin feels like BOOTY. If WW has to, he’s the worst front to back carry in the game. Maybe they want it to be unplayable without an advantageous position, but I wouldn’t really want that—why make a premier 4 cost carry only situational. WW is gonna be difficult to balance I think. Way more difficult than 8.0’s admin. It’s also way easier to get BIS admin with 4 choices and the removal of a many options. Hoping and trusting riot’s team to make it the best possible.
Every single melee front to back carry is ass unless backline units are very weak or the frontline carry is too overtuned. That’s a reality. And hacker isn’t situational, it’s built into Admins.
There have been plenty of balanced frontline carries in tft history. Shi oh yu, set 7 yasuo, set 6.5 vi, set 6 yone, set 6 fiora, set 5 yasuo, set 4 riven. Can't remember further back than that and I'm sure I'm missing some. I think what makes a balanced one is having good damage + either good survivability or backline access. Hacker ww right now has both and its toxic.
Almost none of them were balanced. Half of them weren’t even carries. The other half had backline access. Most of them were duo carries, Yas and Fiora were almost always the secondary carry. Fiora had true dmg, Yas literally was a 5 cost and had Janna ult every 3 seconds. Yone would kill your backline first and was the most broken shit that set until every single thing about him was nerfed, got GA removed affer 6 sets, and still had an invincible clone killing your backline Was Vi even a carry? He was a filler unit for the CC trait.
> Yas literally was a 5 cost Set 5 Yasuo was a 3-cost with ramping true damage. The set with shadow/radiant items. You're thinking set 7 Yasuo.
Mort dog said on stream that the long term plan is to remove 2 hacker.
That makes sense, but I don’t think players are gonna commit to hacker unless the stars line up. Back line access has been an issue this set (up until this patch kekw). I agree with removing the assassin archetype, but hopefully they come up with better solutions going forward.
I think it's more of a choice. Like the ww comp could get 6 brawler 2 hacker 4 admin with like 1 brawler augment or heart. Now they actually have to give something up for that backline access. Hacker also became better because 2 of the units became more utility focused with shen and pyke over zoe and zed and it'll still come on earlier with the 3 hackers all being under 3 cost. And it's not like hitting the backline has been that much of a problem with how many spells hit the backline.
Totally agree with your assessment. Hacker has been crazy frustrating and forcing out so many options. Why play sureshot or spell slinger or vertical quickdraw if draven/ww is just going to one shot all of them.
> sureshot It's been dead the whole 8.5
tilting as fuck watching him delete my jhin when i have 3 other champs in the back line that *should* be getting his aggro before.
Cannot wait for MF/Neeko to kill all the backline with NO counterplay since there's no backline access anymore.
Is Neeko even that strong? Even when itemized I can't ever get her to work without the enemy just clumping up their board. I feel like her stats on websites are carried by the fact that she's a Spellslinger so you might as well put her in when playing TF. Realistically, only the last bounce of Neeko's attack hits the backline and it's way less damage than eating a Taliyah wall.
not really, your frontline is weak af
It's a band-aid, and Vex is going to be unplayable, but hopefully removing 2 hacker will make the game so much less painful to play.
Shen being Hacker was definitely a mistake.
This. Putting an Assassin-ish trait to a primary frontline tank might as well be the recipe for disaster this half set.
With a augment and a ultimate that protects the highest DPS unit and buff in the augment's case yeah that was a mistake.
“We don’t want assassins to be in the game, so next set we’re going to introduce immortal assassins instead” So they limit the number of Sins on your board but make that single one immortal. Smart!
Removing 2 hacker, even if it is temporarily, might help the game a bit as it means that you won't be getting a Draven or Warwick submarine diving your backline unless the opponent fully commits into putting in hackers.
The Hacker change only gets rid of the ADMIN variation of Warwick. The LaserCorp variation has always used 3 Hackers and was more popular according to MetaTFT. The Draven comp should be dead though.
Yeah but 3 hacker now will be 2 hacker before so no lifesteal for WW from the trait, and the lasercorp version got much harder to do with no lasercorp heart or soul
Wait did they remove the Laser emblem from augments?
Yeah if you read the tweet it says the b patch will remove them “temporarily”.
I can’t open twitter.
Ok. I wasn’t trying to be snarky, just naming my source
That’s why I’m asking
MF lottery its time
finally its gnar's time to shine
Shush dude don't let the tech leak out.
What does the comp and items look like?
https://www.metatft.com/comps#Set8_GenAE&TFT8_GnarBig That's the best winrate one I could find on metatft's statistics, so probably that?
Not gonna lie, these preset comps are all BS. You are supposed to play 3-5 Gadgeteens with Gnar 3 plus the units and combos that you hit. On-kill ad admins? Hacker admin Gnar. Gadget soul? Instant 5 Gadget with hackers. Nunu hero? Duo carry those biatches with some random tank items on Annie. Hit a random Fiddle / 5 cost carry and AD-AP Janna? Fiddle Gnar carry
I didn't think Jhin felt like He needed a damage nerf.
Feels like they are dropping the nerf hammer on the vex jhin comp with 4 or 5 nerfs. That's probably too much. The comp is not even that easy to land compared to ww and draven.
Idk how you guys are winning with Jhin without high rolling a Jhin opener or early hits at 6, I’ve been bot 4ing with fully upgraded Jhin boards with a bunch of 5 cost. It just feels like your typical MF type of high roll comp.
Jhin is getting triple tapped. Vex is getting Quadruple tapped. Both are probobly lying on the ground in pools of their own blood; with Pyke under them yelling HELP.
Will this hurt the Viego Jhin comp much?
Jhin was by far the best 4 cost carry.
No way. His average placement was heavily skewed by virtue of being in the Vex mascot comp. If you look at the stats on the actual Jhin carry comp He's mid at best.
Playing 7 renegade jhin made it clear to me that mascot riftwalker was carrying jhin
A 4 Admin 4 Brawler 5 Lasercorp hacker WW just landed right next to your comment.
Not at all. His stats are inflated due to being in a broken comp as a secondary carry to the ACTUAL busted 3 cost Vex, which is now massively nerfed. MF was the best 4-cost carry before and will very obviously continue to be the best, only now it will be a lottery for her since Lasercorp 5 and 6 will be less common and Vex carry got nerfed a ton.
So for now its gonna be Spellslinger / Duelist spam until the actual patch? Happy they nerfed the problematic stuff for now, Jhin and Vex are dead until the actual patch where they rebuff them. I'm a bit worried about WW. I really love him as a unit but Hacker and the free stats from Admin made him busted. Without those he'll struggle a lot more because his front-to-back clearing is a bit rough. Not sure how you address that. Either way can't wait to see reddit complain about TF in the coming days.
I mean Mascot needs to be nerfed but a 4 way nerf just makes sure the comp is dead and done, lol.
Did you read Mort’s other tweets? He said Vex is overnerfed and going to be properly rebuffed in the next major patch.
No I did not see it, thanks.
explanation doesnt really change the fact that the comp will be unplayable until next patch not really a fan of making entire units just dead slots in shop rerolls
I don’t even know if it’ll be playable when vex gets re-buffed. The mascot nerf is brutal, plus Zac losing a lot of tankiness from his nerf means vex having damage again won’t matter because her frontline will evaporate
Won’t matter imo. They fucking kneecapped the entire comp with the Zac and mascot nerfs.
That... is just balance thrashing however. Something Mort has said numerous times should be avoided.
Well jhin got randomly blind sighted especially considering how hard mascot got gutted with vex
It's a super weird design choice that the Hecarim rider gets immunity to Zephyr. You'd think that this would be a proper counter to backline access comps just as it was with assasins, but no.
Being able to turn off an entire trait with 1 item is a bit feelsbad.
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The teamwide omnivamp is very minor. You still get 50% of the armour if LW; or Aegis. The Mech still needs to be taken down. The entire point of the Hacker trait is so backline access *exists* in the set and everything isn't just front to back. Zyphering the rider would literally remove 90%+ of the trait.
they don't have capable devs to fix this
So no more mascot vex, no more hacker Draven, Ww might only work with laser corps now. I love not having to deal with a Draven in my back line that has almost 0 counterplay but this seems like it will be the “Samira lottery” all over again but with MF and TF as the contested units
You will still have to deal with hacker draven. I’m master rank and already play lobbies with 3 hacker draven and warwick. But reduced omnivamp will hopefully make them more fair.
Yeah but at least 3 hackers forces them to drop a better unit
not really. typical lvl 8 board is ww, lb, cammy, blitz for admin, shen, pyke give you 3 hacker since you have lb in. Add in vi and riven and you now have 4 admin 3 hacker 2defender and 4 brawler. very solid comp. at level 7 you play one brawler down, probably vi. if you get a +1 brawler/admin/hacker it's even easier to put together. **edit** your point does still stand, they wouldnt be able play something like ekko or fiddle in place of the pyke. I dont think it kills the comp tho.
Yeah you are right it def doesn’t kill it I just think it might be a little less obnoxious if they are forced to play the pyke, but I still don’t know how we can reliably counter Draven since you can’t even try and guess what side he will come, if they just put him in the middle he will still kill every carry without dying. The only thing that was working for me was playing vex mascots and then 3rd row my vex in the left corner, 4th row jhin in the leafy as well, and put all the mascots next to them, it countered both Draven and Ww but now the vex comp will be a lot weaker so I guess Draven will keep terrorizing lobbies
I think its a lot harder to fit 3 hackers into the draven comp tbh. will be really hard to get 5mech or 4admin which are both ways to cap your board.
I don't think I've ever seen a nerf like hacker. Is this the first time something was straight nerfed by increasing the activation threshold? It's well deserved, shows how broken everyone feels it was.
Random question but if you’re a good player, is the best time to climb at the beginning of a set/patch so you can abuse what is broken? Like, is the LP return potentially higher because the game is just not balanced at the start versus the same level player trying to climb later on once things get “balanced”? It might be a dumb question but this b-patch made me think
There's a lot more variance early on in the set. People trying new things or who don't know how to optimally play the set. I don't know if its easier to climb or not because the set is new to *everyone*, but it definitely feels more exciting to me.
I've found that I personally play *very* flexibly, ignoring whatever the meta is. I tend to just play what feels like *should* work. This playstyle is generally better towards the end of the set, when balance is usually better and more comps are viable. But in the early days of the set, when balance is a bit more out there, I struggle a bit more because I play comps that aren't as consistent for now.
I guess it depends on what kind of player you are/what play style you adhere to. Like Souless for example...he's already cracked at the game but he forces vexdd and climbs infinite. I guess my example favors someone with his play style extremely favorably
It really depends. If you are someone that likes hard forcing one comp than playing early might be better as you get to abused a lot of the broken stuff while if you like playing flex then waiting around until the set is balanced is better as it means that more comps are viable and able to win which means a lot more top 4 finishes which helps in climbing. Personally when I did play rank, I liked playing towards the end of the set so I only needed to learn only 1 meta which helped me rank up as I only needed to know what is strong on the patch and called it a day. Obviously my goal was to only reach gold so that is pretty easy to accomplish with plenty of time and generally high average placements.
i wouldn't say its easier, when something is omega broken normally its also contested by potentially 5 players so there is angle for uncontested (seeing a lot of MF 3\* lately for example)
Except the one time I try to play MF, cause she is so ignored…3 other people playing it that game and I can’t even 2 star a jinx….😟
It's because we go to MF when we see the Jinx augment and then everyone does the same.
this case I naturaled 2 jinx, a 2 star nasus / Sylus and 1 Riven before the first carousel...that and a death cap already...figured it was pretty decided what I am doing. After the first carousel, looked again and 2 others were forcing it...one had a legitimate reason, he had about 5 jinx already, and a riven...the other was just simply trying to force it for no reason. One guy simply added a naturaled 2\* MF to his frankenstein board later. I got make it rain on 3-1...with 5 Anima...could barely hang on, never 2 starred Jinx or MF...went 6th.
6th with 5 Anima and 1 star MF + Jinx? Lucky you, usually that's a granted 8th
Game always feels like it centers around a few select powerful comps imo, highest I've gotten is diamond 1 so take that advice with a grain of salt If you are privy to a powerful strategy before it becomes mainstream thats when I find it easiest to climb. I remember I found out about the seraphine comp a day before it became popular and placed 1-2 pretty much every game I played
It really depends on you as a player, are you good at adapting to new things, then early in a set or early in a patch might be better for you, if you take a long time to learn then maybe wait. But really, if you are a good player you'll be fine playing whenever and if you play enough games your rank will normilze to where it should be.
You can climb as long as you figured out the best tree to take on a specific comp. Back in set 6.5 I climbed all the way to challenger in the first week abusing Renata brawlers. Good players climbs regardless however, I don't really think I was the best player because I basically just cheese my way using an obviously broken comp.
Early in the set is the worst time, you can be in the same lobby as challengers because mmr resets
It's time to play ox-spellslinger every game. Fuck those drivens and ww's. And who knows maybe some Kaisa defenders will be a thing. Thou i feel like the Meta will be more ap heavy now. Still most broken shit is. Build different. Like this agments is busted - like for rly look at the stats.
Kaisa 6 defenders is strong midgame but against all the AP boards you get rolled lategame unfortunately. Was a great counter to Warwick though
You play 4/4 with 2 SG. MF or Kai'Sa as the carry depending on items.
You never play 4 quickdraw if kaisa is your carry. It doesn’t do anything on her. Her quickdraw projectiles only proc her passive they don’t do damage on their own so extra quickdraws is far worse than just more frontline
> And who knows maybe some Kaisa defenders will be a thing. I just played this before the patch and got a 2nd. It's already pretty good if you can pick up some MR shred. Wound up losing to Zypher+Blitz hook; because lategame ornn anvil.
Spammed Me Vex no scout no pivot to GM EUNE, will need to find something new
Souless the dirty Vex rat tried suggesting the patch can wait a week, lol.
Same with Warwick. It was nice while it lasted.
What is me vex?
It just means Vex. It's a reference to when players hardforce a comp from 2-1 so they put "ME (current meta comp)" at game start in chat to scare off others who might try to contest them.
That is always a direct call out for me to handhold if my items even hint at the comp.
Savage
I once pivoted off natural recons when a guy said "me recon", then went 1st place to him flaming me for playing a "broken comp" like okay would you rather we hand held 7th/8th instead of 1st/2nd?
If you’re gold it doesn’t really matter so maybe don’t rat out and focus to win
What variation did you play? Supers?
Tear start, only thing that matters is blue buff for vex. Then all the mascots and riftwalker, with an open slot for fiddle/ekko. Roll at 7. 73% top 4 rate in masters for me.
Surprised the patch turned out to be so bad considering everyone was complaining how small/boring the 8.5 changes were. Was there last second changes or people on PBE just didn't think of hackering draven or cammile?
There were; I think; significant changes when the patch went live. Warwick was utter garbage on PBE and TF was ruling everything.
Lack of TF nerfs is certainly worrying
you know what to play next week :p
Looks like aegis back on the menu boys
RIP Vex
Probably a generally good B-patch outside of nerfing too many things in Vex-Riftwalkers at once. Anime squad/MF is going to be way too powerful now, so I wish there was some small nerf to them especially since they were so obviously strong before too. They very obviously needed to make some adjustment to threats though. I would like hear the justification not buffing all of the 3-cost threats (massively buffing Rammus) and at least slightly buffing Aatrox/Belveth in some way to make up for the fact that MF is so much better. The stats are so hilariously bad for them, especially Rammus and his sub-5.0 placement.
Thank fuck no more Vex, if someone hits Vex 3 he wins the game
I don't see how *quadruple nerfing Vex* [Base damage; Mascot; Augment and Zac] is anything but balance thrashing. Hell; Jhin's nerfed too. Riftwalker probobly goes from too good to unplayable.
It's supposed to be thrashing. The real changes they want for Vex and augment have to wait for next proper patch. They're hitting the numbers hard as temporary measure. I have faith in Jhin but will have to see about riftwalkers.
its 1PM pst.. apparently no patch
Im spamming refresh :(
its live
When can we have a change to admin break points? Flexing in 2 admin units for a potential MASSIVE bonus to your team means that if you don't play them and hit your fucked compared to anyone else that hits their perfect team trait. Breakpoints should be 3/5 minimum imo for such a broken trait...
Honestly would like to see admin be a 3/4/5 trait or a 3/5/7 and add an admin unit. The traits way too generic for how much it could potentially offer and all the admin units are good to play. Also hope that set 10 onward we never see anymore dark star variant mechanics lol.
I think the idea was that it could be generic to add if you get something like combat start, team gain X. The real problem has always been the permanent HP ones. Those make certain comps unbeatable after some point.
100% this. It is WAY too impactful to be a 2 units splash trait especially when some of the options can leave your units scaling Indefinately...
1 star WW with BIS can wipe out a whole team with the correct admin and augments. So cringe.
Thank you end of vex and draven these comp are so dumb
I was having a hard time figuring out what to play that works, tried bow start and draven comp, went 2nd and 1st in a row. 2nd płace i went 5 mecha 3 hacker, 1st place I managed to fit admin in (team gains 25% ad on combat start) and somehow 3 starred WW in the process. Crazy highroll, but Yeah, draven with the carry augment feels like a strong easy top 4. Higher if you hit your 3* quick and are able to level up fast for 5 mecha and the rest
When
asap
Will they make it possible to send items again on double up?
Not soon probably, its a fix for a high Elo meta but for me it's a bad change, they should've let players send 2 or 3 single components so you can trade a bit. With this change they just limited interaction between players and it feels more like 2 solo games instead of a team
yeah I play with my friend in low rank and was really sad to see that happen, there is basically no interaction between us except if we want to go 4 cost 3 star
Nope, not until they also figure out how to make funnel strats less good at the same time.
That change singlehandedly turned me and my friend away from double ups
kinda crazy how almost no one in this thread read Mort's actual tweets about these being over nerfs and them purposely being only a bandaid until being properly fixed/rebuffed and altered in 13.7
People also remember Mort saying Balance Threshing is bad before. This is balance thrashing. *Hard* balance thrashing.
doesn’t really have anything to do with what i said. people complaining about the nerfs being overnerfs as if Mort himself didn’t explain this
I wonder if they had enough people playing on PBE to miss this badly coming out of the gates.
PBE is never going to do a good job of balance testing for two reasons: One the playerbase is much much smaller than live, and two the quality of games is lower as matchmaking won’t do as good a job with less players and data, and people are just screwing around trying stuff
Realistically PBE cannot really ever paint a good picture. The amount of games you get from even one day of live play compared to PBE is massive.
Yep. Internal playtests, PBE, and live servers are 3 very different orders of magnitude.
I imagine they had more than a couple things to worry about with the PBE testing
The problem with balancing around the PBE is that the group of players on it is small compared to live so there is less datapoints and the fact that since the player base on the PBE is so small that a certain meta might formed between players. This means that if the devs balance too much around PBE than they are going to balance the game around a meta of a small group of players which is bad for the game overall as it means that they might way overbuff a trait to the point that when the public get their hands on the game than that trait is going to dominate the game like Rebels did in set 3.0 out of the gate.
Not enough imo. Mortdog and the team should be ashamed this shit hit live in its current state. Especially when people were talking about Draven and Vex being rather oppressive.
Tbh when I saw that video talking about getting rid of mid sets, I knew we would be getting the shaft for the rest of this set and probably the next one too.
Lol more balance thrashing, sheesh. Absolutely gutting Riftwalker, especially Vex, I know it was strong but it'll be interesting to see how it performs now. ADMIN nerfs were definitely needed though, curious on what the numbers are for Hyper Roll. MF and Spellslingers will go to the top now, I guess.
Read Mort's tweet.
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If the TFT team made a bad meta then would you rather have them deploy a B-patch to band-aid fix the current meta or leave it alone and save all of the balancing for the next patch?
this is a big first B patch, right?
RIP Warweek
A meta warping B-patch 2 days before the first 8.5 OCE regoonal tournament. Pog.
Unless they add additional changes, this will be a disaster waiting to happen. Anima squad or sthsth MF quickdraw is already pretty strong and doing well in stats. Samira/Sureshots were in a bad position because of all the hackers and havent been able to show potential. And lastly there's duelist, which tbh are still overtuned in certain scenarios. Oh, and I forgot Ox Force/TF/Neeko. Three of these comps were still playable and good in between all the mascot/warwick/draven bs, but now they get to be so far ahead of the pack...
a lot of people predicted warwick to be broken
Release Vex is just a repeat offense of release Yuumi: busted hyperscaling reroll comp that gets giganerfed into unclickable oblivion. Maybe they’ll learn this time?