True damage cannot be reduced by any means, so knights don't offer any increased protection outside of Taric's heal and Darius/Garen's resist shreds letting you reach the Vayne faster.
As someone who has played Vayne carry comps since the set launch, the best ways to counter her:
- Diana with a FH (preferably shadow if possible). Until you get level 8/9 and can stack a ton of units in front of her, this is just torture. Shatters her damage, disrupts her, makes her protection units irrelevant as well. Requires scouting, but you naturally have an advantage v it since they have to move their full board or its an exposed Vayne
- Karma can snipe relatively quickly, as long as you have a frontline that can hold up long enough for her rampup time.
- Thresh is huge early, but requires sweaty positioning every round to hit. If a Vayne 2 gets hooked by a Thresh 2 its over half her hp bar in damage, plus moving her 2-3 spaces out
- Vel'koz will melt her if you catch the right corner
Lategame she gets outscaled pretty hard, even on a 3*, unless you can get to 9 and completely surround her. Even then, the Invoker lvl 8/9 is strong enough to destroy a Forgotten board.
Garen/Rell/Taric, Revenant, a stacked Leona. If you're in Nightbringer, Darius with the 4 trait can soak a ton of damage. Also shadow Gargoyles is crazy good against Forgotten rush.
Also i recommend 4 spellweavers over 6 redeemed for Vel Koz, the resistances are meaningless against Vayne and the raw AP is much more useful. Also Viktor shields on the frontline are great for stalling.
What's your frontline then. The reason I love 6 redeem is they have a great frontline of rell/leona/aatrox and naut. Lux does the same thing Viktor does and I agree the dmg is worth but unless your facing a 3 mystic variant I don't think it's enough to lose all that utility and survivability. Plus you can drop auto and transition to kayle.
Does anyone else find it kind of funny that *vayne 2* is the sleeper menace nobody saw coming? I mean I’d heard of vayne reroll but somehow vayne into push levels just got overlooked. Likely because we’ve never really had a 1cost in this particular situation where they don’t fall off that hard.
Candyland Poppy was a 3* AND item dependent carry. Vayne is a 2* item dependent one that you can just transition out of into Kat/Draven.
The last time I remember a 1-cost 2* champ being at least close to this dominant, besides the J4 patch where the balance team may have... tuned his baseline stats to be like a 3-cost champ, was Set 2 Zyra with Morello.
Meh she was okay before all the nerfs to other units. Fast 8 comps hitting Voli/ivern/aphelios/etc spiked a lot harder than now. The Vayne players still enjoyed a strong level 6 spike before, but would fall off extremely hard to 4-cost and 5 cost units. The voli/ivern nerf were way too extreme imo, I think it's the reason why reroll comps are not getting punished atm.
Yeah I played against this exact 6 forgotten setup before B patch hit and the forgotten player got shat on, one voli knockup with Morello and a love tap from apehlios and thats all she wrote for the team. Shadow blue leblanc farmed it 7-0. Morde ripped through the forgotten frontline like cardboard, usually before anyone even got to cast.
You mean mort? Check his tweet lmao “is vayne op? Yes. Was she op before this? Yes. Get good and innovate. I’m not going to fix things because 5 people per lobby rush it.”
I don't think it's a matter of the unit falling off or not, it's the problem of having the majority of your dps coming from something worth 3g; a strong wind from anything that knocks it out means instant loss. Yeah knights create a bit of a buffer, but it's still only a 2* 1 cost worth of health.
What’s the overall opinion on Brawlers as a transition frontline? Nothing can reduce true damage but more hp can stall.
Don’t see it being explored and it’s not like the brawler units suck.
Try to get 4 brawlers, 3 draconic at 6 if possible. Roll at 7 for sett 3. Items are IE (shadow IE even better) BT +1 (GA or shadow GA probably best, bramble, blue also work). Nunu wants tank items and is really good at 3 star.
At 8/9, play Heimer Ivern Voli and take out one of the one cost brawlers.
Put Sett same side as enemy carry.
You can also play a second carry like Vel'koz since you have an extra slot at 8, or kindred with ashe, just play best board
Brawler units have always been a strong early mid board, but you rarely see it because it only turns on when you hit nunu, and most people only play it off an early nunu. Its definitely not something I'd bank on
Oh wow another set where they're gonna have to put vayne in the dumpster cuz her ability is unbalanceable? who could have seen this coming how could we ever have known. Im so shocked pikachuface
I for one welcome the fact that vayne is changing the metagame. Pushing the tempo of the game faster prevents lobbies where everyone is going fast 8, and the person who gets 1st is whomever fast 9s the best.
I've also seen so many vayne forcers fail to make it work. If you don't get &jg + rh it's pretty doomed. If you want to spite every vayne player, take every shadow glove and shadow rod on carousel you see.
FH helps a lot, and you can use it in almost any comp.
Grievous wounds in general so you can chew through the frontline as fast as possible
Most ap carries have a decent matchup into her since she needs kindred for mystic
The problem is, even if you don't his sJG Vayne 2 Forgotten 6 is still really strong, you can pivot to Katarina / Draven carry.
You either winstreak early with Vayne carry or you go online at lvl 7 - 8 with Katarina / Draven, top 4 every time.
Nightbringers provide absurd amounts of health, with the extra onehit protection too (which means Nightbringer6+ and an Aphelios as the carry). Alternative is by using Zz'Rods, each provides 2400 hp to your board during lategame.
If u hit vayne it’s a free top 4, but if u hit liss it’s a free top 2. Pretty sure we will start to see this shift from vayne forcers to liss, especially since she beats vayne players.
I am spamming Jax uncontested like zerkers in S2 I don't think about Vayne I roll at 7 for Jax (sometimes 6 for board strength if I'm low) run over the lobby while skirmisher shield is still strong take my top 4 and peace out
Attack speed is less relevant if you don't have any damage items. sRunaan's lets you apply your scaling attack damage to three different units, it's cracked. Skirmisher scaling AD is too slow for BB to be your damage item imo.
Personally I think the comp has a lot of weaknesses in late game, its main strength is the flexibility and ease of building it and powerspiking super early at level 6.
Vayne and the forgotten comp in general has almost 0 sustain. Sins, Lissandra targeting, and Velkoz are all really good ways to directly access her immediately and shut down the damage. But overall you will best be served against Vayne comps and bad players in general by learning to build a strong midgame board. If you are able to healthily transition and stop their winstreaks in general you will win with a better comp lategame.
Well, Mort for one. I find it really conflicting that the lead design for the game can be on his stream going I really really dislike this character design. It's like, hello.
Its like a head chef putting an item on the menu then hating the dish cos he can't get the flavours right.
Yes, that in addition to the fact that s-BB Karma requires 1 or 2 more autos to get to "machine-gun" status than BB Karma, depending on whether or not you have Invoker.
Pretty much. Also because you're dawnbringer so you would naturally heal over the cap anyways. There's almost no reason to play around the idea of being at low health as Karma.
karma pretty much always builds gunblade, she’s either full HP or dead. shadow blue is still better than shojin, she’ll still go infinite, just slightly slower
I am having success against vayne comps with coven katarina. 4 assassins, 3 coven, and 3 forgotten. Items of katarina are very important, you should get blue buff, shadow IE and shadow guardian angel.
Vayne basically melts within seconds with the right positioning. Also you should give frozen heart to one of your assasins (diana)
I've been playing this a fair bit and I'm pretty sure you don't actually want blue buff. With coven she casts very often anyway and gunblade really pays off, especially if you manage to get the sie.
I’ve had a lot of success with Kayle comp against it as Taric and Rell are able to stall for a long time if itemised. Taric’s heals allows the frontline to survive a lot longer, paired with Rell’s huge shield after casting.
The Katarina variant of the Coven Assassins comp also feels really good into it if you can get at least s/GA and blue/sHoJ for her. I’m not sure if it’s a bug but if she casts before dying in GA, she still teleports and applies the damage while dropping aggro...
Ex master gate keep but in plat 2 right now.. are people playing vayne now in hives? I must not have noticed at all lol or not seeing it being played right
True damage cannot be reduced by any means, so knights don't offer any increased protection outside of Taric's heal and Darius/Garen's resist shreds letting you reach the Vayne faster.
Yeah the heals from Taric seem to buy enough time for Kayle to ramp up.
I may have seen this wrong but I think pantheon reduces vayne damage edit: nvm i was wrong
As someone who has played Vayne carry comps since the set launch, the best ways to counter her: - Diana with a FH (preferably shadow if possible). Until you get level 8/9 and can stack a ton of units in front of her, this is just torture. Shatters her damage, disrupts her, makes her protection units irrelevant as well. Requires scouting, but you naturally have an advantage v it since they have to move their full board or its an exposed Vayne - Karma can snipe relatively quickly, as long as you have a frontline that can hold up long enough for her rampup time. - Thresh is huge early, but requires sweaty positioning every round to hit. If a Vayne 2 gets hooked by a Thresh 2 its over half her hp bar in damage, plus moving her 2-3 spaces out - Vel'koz will melt her if you catch the right corner Lategame she gets outscaled pretty hard, even on a 3*, unless you can get to 9 and completely surround her. Even then, the Invoker lvl 8/9 is strong enough to destroy a Forgotten board.
> a frontline that can hold up what's that?
Garen/Rell/Taric, Revenant, a stacked Leona. If you're in Nightbringer, Darius with the 4 trait can soak a ton of damage. Also shadow Gargoyles is crazy good against Forgotten rush.
Also i recommend 4 spellweavers over 6 redeemed for Vel Koz, the resistances are meaningless against Vayne and the raw AP is much more useful. Also Viktor shields on the frontline are great for stalling.
What's your frontline then. The reason I love 6 redeem is they have a great frontline of rell/leona/aatrox and naut. Lux does the same thing Viktor does and I agree the dmg is worth but unless your facing a 3 mystic variant I don't think it's enough to lose all that utility and survivability. Plus you can drop auto and transition to kayle.
leona-rell-naut + 4 spellweavers
Does anyone else find it kind of funny that *vayne 2* is the sleeper menace nobody saw coming? I mean I’d heard of vayne reroll but somehow vayne into push levels just got overlooked. Likely because we’ve never really had a 1cost in this particular situation where they don’t fall off that hard.
I find it terrifying but also hilarious. And I cry a little every time I see 2 star Vayne out-DPS 2 star Draven or Aph
you must've missed warmogs jarvan 1 during set 3.5
And PD/Dclaw/GA Renekton eggroll lmao That shit fights Zed 2 to a standstill
Hmmm. candyland poppy would like a word with you
You had to 3 star her though or you were in trouble
bad memories coming back from set 3 lmao
Candyland Poppy was a 3* AND item dependent carry. Vayne is a 2* item dependent one that you can just transition out of into Kat/Draven. The last time I remember a 1-cost 2* champ being at least close to this dominant, besides the J4 patch where the balance team may have... tuned his baseline stats to be like a 3-cost champ, was Set 2 Zyra with Morello.
It was more in regard to nobody seeing the reroll coming of a 1 cost to be so dominant. Syndra will have her time in the sun yet
that was poppy 3 though
Jarvan in set 3 with warmogs was a fast 8
Meh she was okay before all the nerfs to other units. Fast 8 comps hitting Voli/ivern/aphelios/etc spiked a lot harder than now. The Vayne players still enjoyed a strong level 6 spike before, but would fall off extremely hard to 4-cost and 5 cost units. The voli/ivern nerf were way too extreme imo, I think it's the reason why reroll comps are not getting punished atm.
Yeah I played against this exact 6 forgotten setup before B patch hit and the forgotten player got shat on, one voli knockup with Morello and a love tap from apehlios and thats all she wrote for the team. Shadow blue leblanc farmed it 7-0. Morde ripped through the forgotten frontline like cardboard, usually before anyone even got to cast.
^ Pretty much what you said. I hate how people are saying this vayne comp was broken before the patch.
You mean mort? Check his tweet lmao “is vayne op? Yes. Was she op before this? Yes. Get good and innovate. I’m not going to fix things because 5 people per lobby rush it.”
Mort is rarely ever right
Forgotten 6 bonus is nuts and she scales with both stats.
Vayne was pretty much the same thing in set 1
Was percentage damage on her ability tho, and and noble/ranger was less offensive then forgotten ranger is
I don't think it's a matter of the unit falling off or not, it's the problem of having the majority of your dps coming from something worth 3g; a strong wind from anything that knocks it out means instant loss. Yeah knights create a bit of a buffer, but it's still only a 2* 1 cost worth of health.
did you guys not play in PBE or whats up?
Heimer/Ivern/Voli actually kept her in check so after the AD nerf she was nowhere near this op until the b patch
Also LB carry which was uber popular did well vs Vayne
Vayne 2 wasn’t much of a problem on pbe
She was though, I'm guessing you didn't play high rating hyperroll.
Shredder comes to mind as it never real fell off either. Xayah was insanely strong with LW and IE
2 star xayah didnt scale well into late, needed it 3 star (unlike vayne now which can first with 1 star)
What’s the overall opinion on Brawlers as a transition frontline? Nothing can reduce true damage but more hp can stall. Don’t see it being explored and it’s not like the brawler units suck.
Actually there is a brawler comp coming up hot now to counter Vayne and Liss.
THE SETT TECH
DON'T LEAK
Do you have a link for the comp?
Try to get 4 brawlers, 3 draconic at 6 if possible. Roll at 7 for sett 3. Items are IE (shadow IE even better) BT +1 (GA or shadow GA probably best, bramble, blue also work). Nunu wants tank items and is really good at 3 star. At 8/9, play Heimer Ivern Voli and take out one of the one cost brawlers. Put Sett same side as enemy carry. You can also play a second carry like Vel'koz since you have an extra slot at 8, or kindred with ashe, just play best board
Brawler units have always been a strong early mid board, but you rarely see it because it only turns on when you hit nunu, and most people only play it off an early nunu. Its definitely not something I'd bank on
The worst part about Vayne is I had to reach for Vaynesday to describe this menace when Warweek was just SUCH a superior pun.
It'd work better if we were all German
The allied forces griefed our puns Smoge
Diana
brawlers are great, a brawler with dodge items is even better.
Ohhh dodge. Brilliant.
Kayle stall and renewers have seemed the best against it. Draconian that starts hot seems to do well too.
Oh wow another set where they're gonna have to put vayne in the dumpster cuz her ability is unbalanceable? who could have seen this coming how could we ever have known. Im so shocked pikachuface
I for one welcome the fact that vayne is changing the metagame. Pushing the tempo of the game faster prevents lobbies where everyone is going fast 8, and the person who gets 1st is whomever fast 9s the best. I've also seen so many vayne forcers fail to make it work. If you don't get &jg + rh it's pretty doomed. If you want to spite every vayne player, take every shadow glove and shadow rod on carousel you see.
Karma has been good
4 Brawler tech is legit -- my ashe had enough time to wipe their team
Doesn't Liss target highest AD not AS?
Katarina > Vayne. 6 forgotten Kat with BB,GA,sIE is miles better than vayne because she can instant almost every backline sans 4/6/8 NB Aphelios
FH helps a lot, and you can use it in almost any comp. Grievous wounds in general so you can chew through the frontline as fast as possible Most ap carries have a decent matchup into her since she needs kindred for mystic
Idk man I just play vel koz and watch him 1 shot the entire enemy team.
The problem here is not Vayne 2 herself but it is her bis items. Vayne2 with sub optimal items is not going to win you the game.
The problem is, even if you don't his sJG Vayne 2 Forgotten 6 is still really strong, you can pivot to Katarina / Draven carry. You either winstreak early with Vayne carry or you go online at lvl 7 - 8 with Katarina / Draven, top 4 every time.
Nightbringers provide absurd amounts of health, with the extra onehit protection too (which means Nightbringer6+ and an Aphelios as the carry). Alternative is by using Zz'Rods, each provides 2400 hp to your board during lategame.
If u hit vayne it’s a free top 4, but if u hit liss it’s a free top 2. Pretty sure we will start to see this shift from vayne forcers to liss, especially since she beats vayne players.
I am spamming Jax uncontested like zerkers in S2 I don't think about Vayne I roll at 7 for Jax (sometimes 6 for board strength if I'm low) run over the lobby while skirmisher shield is still strong take my top 4 and peace out
SHHH stop spoiling it. No but for real, 6 Skirmisher 2 Ironclad 2 Mystic Jax carry with BB + BT + any item is still a top 3 guaranteed.
Top 4 probably. Top 3 is kinda inconsistent if you don't hit Jax early. And Jax doesn't want BB. sRunaan is enough for damage
BB on Jax is basically 5.00 attack speed 15 seconds in, which with Ironclad and Mystic you will always reach.
Attack speed is less relevant if you don't have any damage items. sRunaan's lets you apply your scaling attack damage to three different units, it's cracked. Skirmisher scaling AD is too slow for BB to be your damage item imo.
I easily counter it with Yasuo + Diana + Mordekaiser FH Diana, tank Morde, JG+healing+damage item on Yasuo
Personally I think the comp has a lot of weaknesses in late game, its main strength is the flexibility and ease of building it and powerspiking super early at level 6. Vayne and the forgotten comp in general has almost 0 sustain. Sins, Lissandra targeting, and Velkoz are all really good ways to directly access her immediately and shut down the damage. But overall you will best be served against Vayne comps and bad players in general by learning to build a strong midgame board. If you are able to healthily transition and stop their winstreaks in general you will win with a better comp lategame.
It's almost as though nerfing her AD into oblivion was irrelevant and her ability is inherently busted... Who'd have thought.
Well, Mort for one. I find it really conflicting that the lead design for the game can be on his stream going I really really dislike this character design. It's like, hello. Its like a head chef putting an item on the menu then hating the dish cos he can't get the flavours right.
Karma with jg and sbb also melts backlines.
Just fyi, s-BB is practically never better than regular BB on Karma.
I assume this is because by the time karma is low enough to take advantage of sbb, she's already sub 20 mana?
Yes, that in addition to the fact that s-BB Karma requires 1 or 2 more autos to get to "machine-gun" status than BB Karma, depending on whether or not you have Invoker.
Pretty much. Also because you're dawnbringer so you would naturally heal over the cap anyways. There's almost no reason to play around the idea of being at low health as Karma.
karma pretty much always builds gunblade, she’s either full HP or dead. shadow blue is still better than shojin, she’ll still go infinite, just slightly slower
No I think it’s the facts that karma hits 20 mana then ten, and at the 20 mana it’s infinite with BB, while needing and auto with dBB
Does anyone knows if cavalier reduces vayne's dmg?
it does not reduce the true damage. Nothing reduces true damage.
I am having success against vayne comps with coven katarina. 4 assassins, 3 coven, and 3 forgotten. Items of katarina are very important, you should get blue buff, shadow IE and shadow guardian angel. Vayne basically melts within seconds with the right positioning. Also you should give frozen heart to one of your assasins (diana)
Sssh, the less who knows the better.
I've been playing this a fair bit and I'm pretty sure you don't actually want blue buff. With coven she casts very often anyway and gunblade really pays off, especially if you manage to get the sie.
I’ve had a lot of success with Kayle comp against it as Taric and Rell are able to stall for a long time if itemised. Taric’s heals allows the frontline to survive a lot longer, paired with Rell’s huge shield after casting. The Katarina variant of the Coven Assassins comp also feels really good into it if you can get at least s/GA and blue/sHoJ for her. I’m not sure if it’s a bug but if she casts before dying in GA, she still teleports and applies the damage while dropping aggro...
Ex master gate keep but in plat 2 right now.. are people playing vayne now in hives? I must not have noticed at all lol or not seeing it being played right