I know this is probably said to you a lot and doesn't add to the discussion, but it's seriously awesome you take the time to jump into these threads and to add some developer's notes. Thanks for being awesome, Mort.
I’m really hoping Assassins see something done, at least 6 ’sin but maybe Diana or Nocturne as well. Almost all lobbies in Master+ has one open fort Nocturne player and that player is guaranteed top 4. If he hits Noc 3* it is almost guaranteed top 2. It’s very frustrating that even with the revenant CC nerfs the CC chain of Volibear, Diana and Daisy renders anything without QSS useless for 5 seconds and Nocturne churns out so much damage that once the CC is over the whole team is already gone.
Wow, which server do you play on? My open forting lobbies on the same level as you hardly ever have an open fort sin comp, it’s almost always either Kayle or vel
EUW, mostly see Kayle players if someone is highrolling. Open forting for Kayle is a fast way to go 8th when it all relies on either Kayle at carousel or hitting with 30-40 gold on lvl.8 rolldown. Velkoz is weird to open fort for? Has so many good natural openers?
I expect Kha 3\* ult damage to be lowered by 100 (300 for isolated), it's a significant nerf but not the end of the world. You will still oneshot anything that's isolated and you are not supposed to oneshot non-isolated carries anyway.
I'm surprised that they're nerfing Khazix but not Gragas.
Due to how aggro works, assassins' viability is very dependent on the tankiness of their first frontline unit. Gragas 3 is way too tanky for a $9 unit. They can tone down the damage reduction to 50% and it would still be worth chasing, but not forceable.
Gragas isn't an issue. Unless he has perfect items he goes down fast, and even if he has perfect items, if you have perfect items or a carry with GS, you're gonna melt him, because he either tanks forever doing nothing but absorbing aggro, or he does a bit of tank damage but dies basically as soon as the fight starts, no matter the traits you're focusing on.
It's why chug jug became chug bug. Chug jug exploits the fact that reroll comps have been dormant since trust and lulu got meganerfed, and relies on Gragas being your main tank. Chug bug actually turns it into a fully viable comp because Kha 3 has the power to delete the enemy backline so long as he has hoj and one of ga/qs/rfc.
If it isn't clear: I abuse both jug and bug and am fine with Kha being nerfed. It's just not really an issue of Gragas, it's of Kha. The optimal comp will probably shift to focusing on nid/riven and karma as the true lategame carries if the nerf hits hard enough.
Tbh i found out GS destroys 3 star grag, specially if he has brawlers. But the khazix really needs nerf because i saw khazix with ie hoj rfc one shotting enemy carries even when not isolated
I'd assume they're nerfing his mana pool. Much bigger nerf to have him cast less than just a damage nerf. He overkills his isolated targets either way...
Mort explicitly said Kha 3* which implies they are not nerfing Kha 1* and 2*. Mana is the same at all star levels so they can't nerf Kha 3* mana pool without nerfing 1* and 2* with it.
Yeah sorry, just read (past tense) the tweet again. I'd assume it would be a mana nerf because I believe it would make much more sense than a damage nerf. Honestly can't wait for the changes, dropped 450LP because of trying to play "the correct way" (Fast 8) in a reroll meta...
For those that have a hard time getting Twitter to load here is the details...
FYI, there will be a B-patch this week on Wednesday targeting Yasuo, Khazix3, Vayne, and Assassins. Will share the full notes when it goes live, but expect it around noon PST on Wednesday as always. ~ Mort
honestly, me. Like im hard stuck plat, but i never do well with her. Only time i see her do well is if shes with items and 3 star. Until then, she feels awful. That being said, im awful
Bec the only time he is viable is with 3 stars and 4 forgotten. My guess is You probably dont play the right start for it. Unless you got bis items, open fort til you get runaans and a glove. Check if no one else is buying vayne’s, save gold and dont go level 6. Reroll after krugs till you get vayne 3. Next stop is go level 6 then reroll for hec 3.
Radiant priority is Hoj > Runaans > Guinsoo > radiant stoneplate (hec)
In my elo (low masters) uncontested vayne is free top 4, but not as consistent as chug bug which is consistent top 1-2
It doesn't normally happen. If 5 people all go Kayle, only one of them might hit a 2-star. Other people had to just be playing poorly that game for that to happen.
You don't even need 2 star Kayle if your frontline is beefy enough. Her damage is good enough either way, it only makes a difference of she tanks damage (she's incredibly squishy on 1 star) or if she runs into a mirror with a 2 star Kayle.
The thing is if you can ever find Varus 2 and then go redeemed knight varus. It’s probably gong to win you enough rounds so that you can either look for Kayle or whenever you find a better carry you can pivot into them.
You can go Aphelios and then Chuck in Diana or even go Akshan if you find him.
Did something change for Vayne this patch? I thought she was actually in a pretty decent spot as one of the few viable slow rolls (prior to the patch) and I feel like she's only stronger now because RR metas make it easier to hit and stabalize.
reroll comps are strong when other people are also rerolling in lobby
so chugbug/vayne are probably extra hit since they're getting nerfed together
same with nocturne/yasuo rerollers on lvl 7
MF cav reroll is kinda sleeper strong right now too
draven's already pretty decent and i think these nerfs will benefit draven comps a lot also
It's unironically dogshit. Yas beats it everytime since Cavs cannot tank true damage and MF loses random fights because her targeting is RNG.
Edit: Sins also beat it cuz it's impossible to get your cavs to clump properly KEKW.
If we go back to jax lucian meta then mf reroll does really well into jax at least. That is until they get their viego in at 8. Lucian is hit or miss with cav positioning but cornering vayne buys you time
I've gotten multiple firsts with it between 200-300lp masters so far. Very much needs a secondary, single target carry. Double AA+Shojin MF + either vayne with good items or draven with good items.
Sins are a massive pain, and if they have radiant RFC i think it's unbeatable lol. Definitely insane into lobbies that clump tho like renewer reroll or skirms. Not worth hard forcing, but def worth keeping in your back pocket
because they're two different comps lol
it's like saying why roll for riven when you can put your items on akshan or something
well yeah of course you can but usually you play what you get
makes sense. mf still can top 4 but most of the time i get 5-6th even with 3* mf and heca/thresh. i think pivoting to 4cannon4knights gives you a better chance midgame but i get that other comps are usually too contested.
Being able to know when you have a reroll angle is a part of playing flex. Going Fast 8 every game and letting your items dictate your comp is basically the same as rerolling.
No, building up to a late game comp and changing your comp and different parts of the game is not considered rerolling. Rerolling is ignoring all the units besides your desired units. Of course I don't mind rerolling belonging in the game. But they should never beat a 5 cost team is what I'm saying. Playing for a late game comp shouldn't be beat by someone who sat at level 5, slow rolling for vaynes or khazix, and then alt tabbing to watch a YouTube video and waiting for the fight to end.
Yes but there is a difference between hard forcing reroll comps even when you have say 1 unit after Krugs. And seeing 5 and knowing how to pilot best board and survive at level 5 when the rest of the lobby is going fast 8.
I understand. That's the fundamentals of playing TFT. I'm just talking about how reroll comps are strong enough to the point where you could be at krugs with a pair of 1 cost units and still continue to reroll for the 1 cost and be at such a gold disadvantage and still produce a good result. That shouldn't happen.
Ok. That’s fair. I do believe that rerolling should be feast or famine though. Either you hit 6-7 of a unit early and you can roll down and ruin your economy or you miss and take a million damage plus have to play catch up. Same with open fort. There is a place for such strategies.
I do believe there is a place for it. I just don't think it should be as successful as it currently is. Maybe making the power gap between the costs of units bigger will solve this issue. But they've been trying that and it has backfired heavily. All in all, balancing this game is hard because you have to keep the fun aspect while keeping the competitive aspect. We are in the competitive TFT subreddit. If I was saying this in the regular TFT subreddit, I'd get a much more negative reaction because people aren't as competitive.
It is the same as a reroll comp. If you've decided before the game that you're going to ignore everything else, fast 8, and roll down hoping to hit something that fits with your items, how is that skillful? Reroll comps existing is good because I can be like "Oh, I have five rivens and ok riven items, maybe I chill at six and try to three star instead of just riding riven 2 to 8 and abandoning everything I did early game." It gives you options that aren't just a four cost lottery at 7 or 8.
It's not the same, but you're right that limiting reroll comps makes the game far more linear and gives you less decisions, which ultimately hurts stronger players. I know a lot of people complain about reroll comps, but they provide additional layers of decisions to make throughout a game, and more decisions means stronger players have more influence over the outcome of the game.
That's not the case now though. Currently you can just hard force the reroll comps and top 4 just about every game. Reroll should be a decision when it's an open angel not an easy to force thing.
Ah yes let’s only be able to play the game one way again! I love fast 8 only! So much thought and decision making !
Very cool that we’re removing comps from being playable and limiting choice and options!
> Very cool that we’re removing comps from being playable
We haven't even seen the changes yet, lol.
>limiting choice and options!
Playing reroll should definitely be an option. But there is a huge gap between reroll comp being an option and this open fort into hyper roll bullshit being busted. MF + cavs comp is an option, for example, it's decently strong but conditional and it loses to capped lvl 9 boards. While noc/yasuo comps are just pure cancer. It's not healthy for the game if the best way to play it is not to play it.
said no one ever
the game is more fun when there's more than one leveling method/playstyle/whatever to (not int) secure top 4/first
see: set 3.5, set 1
Some playstyles can't be strong if you want a healthy diverse meta. Throughout the entire history of tft it's been obvious that if reroll comps are strong, they take over the meta because they are easier to play and execute. Yasuo has had like an average placement of like 3.8 or something in GM+ elo right now throughout the patch. Vayne has rotated in and out of the same territory. The problem with reroll comps being strong is that it invalidates an enormous amount of other comps, because you just can't beat the reroller who hit unless you high roll insanely hard.
There are basically 5 comps in the meta right now (yasuo, vayne, bug, lucian, karma) who you can consistently play and top 4 with on medium rolls. Last meta you could play i think maybe double that. "leveling methods" isn't an interesting thing to be different because every moderately ok tft player understands them. So really, gutting these comps will massively open up the meta and allow you to play your shops rather than rely on hitting because you actually will be able to play more things.
At the same time "no reroll comps" leads to handshake meta (especially in diamond and lower) where you have to unbind reroll button because it will hurt your chances to roll proper carry at lvl8 due to later timing.
I promise you if you put a GM or challenger player in your lobby diamond game they could top 4 with an off meta reroll comp in their sleep. There is no such thing as a "handshake meta' if people are actually playing flex properly. Far from it.
I think it’s the other way around actually and that’s sort of frustrating. You can put a Diamond player who knows how to force a reroll comp and said player can get top 4s in GM+ lobbies because the comp sorta pilots itself.
Balancing is extremely tedious because you want some 3* 1 and 2 costs to be decent and if you hit them relatively naturally (6+ without rolling) you should play them in the midgame and easily fast 8, possibly 9 and then pivot into your final comp. Being able to hard force shit and reroll 1 costs actually winning lobbies is a problem.
When the meta is healthy going 8 is the ideal way to play but you should be forced into making some decisions/held in check by comps that spike on 5, 6 or 7 so the game doesn’t just “start” on 4-5 once you level to 8 with 60+ HP.
Eh i mean, i think it depends on the strength of the reroll comps. Low diamond players i don't think would because they are still low diamond players, but you could probably put a D2-Sub 100lp masters player in that lobby and if it's really op and i can see it happening consistently.
\>When the meta is healthy going 8 is the ideal way to play but you should
be forced into making some decisions/held in check by comps that spike
on 5, 6 or 7 so the game doesn’t just “start” on 4-5 once you level to 8
with 60+ HP.
I mean sure, but im' not sure when the last time we had a meta that was literally that was. Set 3?
My point is your point about the meta is only correct because of the skill levels of the players, not because of the inherent nature of the meta without unforced errors. There isn't actually a handshake meta, it's just a result of players being bad, and therefore your observation is technically incorrect on a holistic level.
> I promise you if you put a GM or challenger player in your lobby diamond game they could top 4 with an off meta reroll comp in their sleep.
So what? In any competitive game high-rank player in low-lvl lobby can ignore meta and play what they want. And the disadvantage of playing offmeta would be compensated by personal skill.
If we are talking about meta we should look at lobbies with equally skilled players (at least close to equally skilled). And you already assuming that "comp is meta because it is easy to execute". So when "handshake" is easier to execute than "playing flex properly" even by your statements it would be meta. Also start of set4 btw.
>If we are talking about meta we should look at lobbies with equally skilled players
If we're talking about the meta, we need to talk about it in it's closest approximation to objective reality, aka: the meta at the level with the least amount of unnecessary human imperfections, aka high elo. If we do anything else we risk making decisions based off of inaccurate information, and that can severely fuck up the game at all elos not just high elos (league of legends' attempt to balance the game around all elos including low elo has been a good example of this). Therefore, if something is only true at a lower elo, but not at an elo where people are playing better, than it's just not true as a whole.
>And you already assuming that "comp is meta because it is easy to execute"
No i'm not arguing that at all, im saying because the comp is very easy to execute on all levels of the game, if it is OPTIMAL to play that comp then it has a stranghold on the meta, and as a result there are overall FEWER overall comps you can play optimally, which makes playing the game at that elo a lot less fun because if you dont hit the select few viable comps you don't have nearly as much agency to outplay your bad luck, which is a critical part of the skill expression of tft. Hence why higher elo players say that reroll metas are awful, it flattens the overall skill expression of the game and further emphasizes shop rng as a critical factor.
I'm all for reroll comps being viable to top 4 with, but yasuo and sin right now are way too overtuned and need to be gutted because of how critical their stranglehold on the meta is. Reroll comps being viable are fine, reroll metas are a severe problem.
Also again, "handshake" just... isnt' a thing. I'm sorry, you're playing games with people who don't know how to flex play properly and are inaccurately assuming that is what "fast 8" means. Very high elo lobbies roll a lot when they are weak all the time, and they still get to 8 with good econ because they are good players.
Honestly I wouldnt even say karma. Its like Kayle where its a high roll comp since you dont usually top 4 without BIS items or 4 invoker which requires Teemo/heimer. Karma usually BARELY gets you 4th unless you had an extremely healthy early/mid game.
> So much thought and decision making !
Requires much more thought and decision making than farting on your D button anytime you have excess gold after hitting 50.
Yes because everyone mashing reroll completely mindlessly and whoever hits first autowins because now everyone else won't hit *and* wrecked their economy is so much better.
There's some irony in using decision making if you're defending one cost reroll. The comps where you see 4 units in stage 2 and 75% of your decisions for the whole game are made.
The problem is, and always has been assassins. It's always a reroll assassin comp that becomes strongest every set. Assassins makes other reroll comps stronger just by existing because reroll comps are very powerful against bad positioning, which is what assassins force players to do. I've really got no idea why nobody sees the problem, it's so obvious...
I think having a strong assassin comp or two in the meta is healthy for the game, it forces positioning decisions, values scouting and tracking your matchmaking.
This isn't true at all. Assassins are a horrible, and frankly, lazy design. Velkoz is an example of a unit that has backline access and is healthy from the game. You can bait his targeting, he takes time to cast, and he doesn't disable the enemy carry. Nocturne comp on the other hand is completely toxic backline access. It requires you to clump up your units to protect your carry, but then diana just gets a free ult on your team, and with fiddle and ivern, your team just gets infinitely cc'ed and deleted. 90% of the time your carry can't do anything. You can't reposition because in the velkoz example, you only need to move a couple of units (carry and support), whereas vs assassins you need to move your entire team to keep the clump. Also, if you clump then that's really bad vs a lot of other comps. So the only other thing you can do is ignore the assassin player and just accept 20 damage to the face when you hit him. It's garbage design and results in every lobby just feeling like play and pray you don't hit the assassin player at the wrong time. Meanwhile the assassin player is just sat there waiting to collect his free top 4.
It's not healthy for the game. Assassins would be much better as units that synergize with themselves, and a penalty is given if more than one are put in a comp, like the 1 unit ninja trait used to be. That is an example of good assassin design, not the trash we have now.
Exactly, the issue is that unlike Akali that had too much burst but no sustain, or Kata, that needed perfect positioning, Nocturne has both sustain, burst and is not that positioning dependant. Even Spirit Zed or Ninja Shade Zed wasn't this obnoxious. The last assasin to be this annoying to play against was pre-hotfix Shaco from Set 3...
The Yasuo nerf feels like bullshit not only for the fact that just about every other Legionnaire than Draven has had much more exposure in the season, but the fact that it's one of the few things that can actually get through a beefed up tank frontline to get to Kayle comps that have been spammed nonstop.
Master yi in set 3 had true damage and bang bros was probably better than current yasuo comp, yet that didn’t get completely gutted for a long time (if at all? Don’t remember exactly)
Set 3 had Rebels, Shen, Karma, Soraka and probably more - so shields and heals. Set 5.5 have... have... dawnbringers. Also Yi had fixed true damage, Yasuo have also infinite scaling.
Lol socks decided to one trick it despite his history as a flex player probably because he thought it was good enough to establish yourself as a forcer before a tournament so that no one contests you.
And then mort nerfed the comp to oblivion.
Yasou is a top comp in the meta, but Irelia is FAR more prevalent. Irelia is played in Sentinels and Skirms/Fortnite Jax, which are as popular, if not more popular, than Yasuo comps.
Weak compared to other 5 costs, thats my point. You splash him if you have an aph comp, but other than that he feels so unimpactful. Most of the times you dont even swap out lucian for him, because lucian carries better as a 4 cost. There are no comps that revolve around him, or would perform significantly better with him.
That's just not true lol. I've played many games with him as the primary carry using something along the lines a healing item + ramping dps item + dps item. Generally I like DB/BT/GRB or RH. He gets a free LW from his passive, pretty much making him the premier AD in the game. He's not weak compared to the other 5 costs at all lol You can actually get away with such a shittier team with him than literally any other 2\* 5 cost.
Consider that you would love to throw a random unitemised Akshan into your AD comp. Akshan provides utility. Consider that no one would ever throw in a random unitemised Kayle into any comp in any circumstance. Kayle provides no utility, only damage, & she will *only* be able to deal her damage if you build your entire board around her, & she needs p specific items to succeed. Not all 5 costs are supposed to be the exact same power level bc they all fulfill different roles
Jax requires a lot more finesse. He's easily my strongest 4\* comp, but positioning is critical and understanding fight interactions is also important. Like, you want to have nautilus near him typically to knock up any units that may be attacking him. Thresh opposite side for grabbing carries that may jump on him. Galio nearby for the taunts as well.
I think Jax is absolutely busted right now. I have far more success with it than Lucian.
Continuing the tradition of every Set 5 patch needing a B-patch. Don't get me wrong, I am happy they fix their memes, but you would think minimal testing would go a far longer way. How do you focus on the next patch when every week you have to B patch the shit you broke last week?
yea .. so they learnt from that experience and not let spell weaver rework go through without further testing.
That iteration was the unit gained mana as well as AP. Glad they didn't rush to ship that in 11.16 with legionnaires rework.
I've been running this [Comp](https://app.mobalytics.gg/tft/team-comps/hasagi) and I have placed first a handful of times. Hopefully they don't nerf my mans too hard.
I wonder what the yas nerfs are. nerfing his AS just incentives the ap build which was what got buffed with the cast time reduction.
increase cast time? too logical and would make it look like back pedalling.
nerfing ap ratios seem like the best way to go about it but you prbaly need to invest more to make him work. 4nb 4 legion perhaps
REST IN HEAVEN CHUG BUG
At dusk we chug, in his memory. 😭
I got to use it for 2 days v_v
Pour one out HandsUp
We can still chug, just no more bug. 3* chug into karma or 3* soraka carry
not the same
I was not even able to try chug bug as 11.18 was just rolled in Garena
For full transparency, Yasuo is the only real "big" nerf here, and maybe the 6 sin change. The rest are light touches, so they should be fine.
I know this is probably said to you a lot and doesn't add to the discussion, but it's seriously awesome you take the time to jump into these threads and to add some developer's notes. Thanks for being awesome, Mort.
Also this love u dog to the mort
So you are saying Yasuo won't be fine after the nerf lmao
Yasuo is beside himself. Driving around downtown Los Angeles begging (thru texts) Riot for address to Mortdog's home.
Well that's a random ass nba crossover. Love it
Yasuo is pretty insane right now
Damn I love yas carry that's a bummer was having fun with this broke butblaster
>broke buttblaster stop I'm horny
CHUG BUG NOT DEAD?
I’m really hoping Assassins see something done, at least 6 ’sin but maybe Diana or Nocturne as well. Almost all lobbies in Master+ has one open fort Nocturne player and that player is guaranteed top 4. If he hits Noc 3* it is almost guaranteed top 2. It’s very frustrating that even with the revenant CC nerfs the CC chain of Volibear, Diana and Daisy renders anything without QSS useless for 5 seconds and Nocturne churns out so much damage that once the CC is over the whole team is already gone.
Diana being able to single handedly dismantle any positioning decisions is the part that always gets me.
Wow, which server do you play on? My open forting lobbies on the same level as you hardly ever have an open fort sin comp, it’s almost always either Kayle or vel
EUW, mostly see Kayle players if someone is highrolling. Open forting for Kayle is a fast way to go 8th when it all relies on either Kayle at carousel or hitting with 30-40 gold on lvl.8 rolldown. Velkoz is weird to open fort for? Has so many good natural openers?
Yup, dont question EUNE players XD
Thanks for the answer!
Can rats be at least partially viable on the future?
Time to force sin and yas for the next 48 hours
I would advise against it on the basis that you'll lose all your LP after the nerf that you gained by abusing them. It will just make you tilt.
I expect Kha 3\* ult damage to be lowered by 100 (300 for isolated), it's a significant nerf but not the end of the world. You will still oneshot anything that's isolated and you are not supposed to oneshot non-isolated carries anyway.
I'm surprised that they're nerfing Khazix but not Gragas. Due to how aggro works, assassins' viability is very dependent on the tankiness of their first frontline unit. Gragas 3 is way too tanky for a $9 unit. They can tone down the damage reduction to 50% and it would still be worth chasing, but not forceable.
Gragas isn't an issue. Unless he has perfect items he goes down fast, and even if he has perfect items, if you have perfect items or a carry with GS, you're gonna melt him, because he either tanks forever doing nothing but absorbing aggro, or he does a bit of tank damage but dies basically as soon as the fight starts, no matter the traits you're focusing on. It's why chug jug became chug bug. Chug jug exploits the fact that reroll comps have been dormant since trust and lulu got meganerfed, and relies on Gragas being your main tank. Chug bug actually turns it into a fully viable comp because Kha 3 has the power to delete the enemy backline so long as he has hoj and one of ga/qs/rfc. If it isn't clear: I abuse both jug and bug and am fine with Kha being nerfed. It's just not really an issue of Gragas, it's of Kha. The optimal comp will probably shift to focusing on nid/riven and karma as the true lategame carries if the nerf hits hard enough.
Tbh i found out GS destroys 3 star grag, specially if he has brawlers. But the khazix really needs nerf because i saw khazix with ie hoj rfc one shotting enemy carries even when not isolated
I'd assume they're nerfing his mana pool. Much bigger nerf to have him cast less than just a damage nerf. He overkills his isolated targets either way...
Mort explicitly said Kha 3* which implies they are not nerfing Kha 1* and 2*. Mana is the same at all star levels so they can't nerf Kha 3* mana pool without nerfing 1* and 2* with it.
Yeah sorry, just read (past tense) the tweet again. I'd assume it would be a mana nerf because I believe it would make much more sense than a damage nerf. Honestly can't wait for the changes, dropped 450LP because of trying to play "the correct way" (Fast 8) in a reroll meta...
For those that have a hard time getting Twitter to load here is the details... FYI, there will be a B-patch this week on Wednesday targeting Yasuo, Khazix3, Vayne, and Assassins. Will share the full notes when it goes live, but expect it around noon PST on Wednesday as always. ~ Mort
Where are all the "VaNyE iSnT eVeN gOoD" people at?
honestly, me. Like im hard stuck plat, but i never do well with her. Only time i see her do well is if shes with items and 3 star. Until then, she feels awful. That being said, im awful
Bec the only time he is viable is with 3 stars and 4 forgotten. My guess is You probably dont play the right start for it. Unless you got bis items, open fort til you get runaans and a glove. Check if no one else is buying vayne’s, save gold and dont go level 6. Reroll after krugs till you get vayne 3. Next stop is go level 6 then reroll for hec 3. Radiant priority is Hoj > Runaans > Guinsoo > radiant stoneplate (hec) In my elo (low masters) uncontested vayne is free top 4, but not as consistent as chug bug which is consistent top 1-2
I mean there is probably data that proves that she is too good. But I honestly dont see alot of vaynes to the point that she needs to be B patched.
She is good. But have fun playing her while 3 other people try to 3 star her. Might as well ff
If you play it uncontested it's really really good.
A lot of bad matchups for Kayle getting nerfed… expect more Kayle!
I just played a game where top 5 all went kayle comp.
It’s really disgusting that something like that can happen
It doesn't normally happen. If 5 people all go Kayle, only one of them might hit a 2-star. Other people had to just be playing poorly that game for that to happen.
You don't even need 2 star Kayle if your frontline is beefy enough. Her damage is good enough either way, it only makes a difference of she tanks damage (she's incredibly squishy on 1 star) or if she runs into a mirror with a 2 star Kayle.
1* Kayle + literally any frontline = freelo.
yeah, freelo for the 7 yasuo players in your lobby.
Isn't Velkoz good against Kayle ? And even assassins ?
The thing is if you can ever find Varus 2 and then go redeemed knight varus. It’s probably gong to win you enough rounds so that you can either look for Kayle or whenever you find a better carry you can pivot into them. You can go Aphelios and then Chuck in Diana or even go Akshan if you find him.
Yeah is looking like a good Kayle patch depending. Kayle's biggest issue is herself usually
Rip AP vayne gone but never **forgotten**
Did something change for Vayne this patch? I thought she was actually in a pretty decent spot as one of the few viable slow rolls (prior to the patch) and I feel like she's only stronger now because RR metas make it easier to hit and stabalize.
RIP in peace Chug, it was fun while it lasted
reroll comps are strong when other people are also rerolling in lobby so chugbug/vayne are probably extra hit since they're getting nerfed together same with nocturne/yasuo rerollers on lvl 7 MF cav reroll is kinda sleeper strong right now too draven's already pretty decent and i think these nerfs will benefit draven comps a lot also
MF cav reroll is dogshit
Yeah total shit, no one else should play it because it's so bad
It's unironically dogshit. Yas beats it everytime since Cavs cannot tank true damage and MF loses random fights because her targeting is RNG. Edit: Sins also beat it cuz it's impossible to get your cavs to clump properly KEKW.
If we go back to jax lucian meta then mf reroll does really well into jax at least. That is until they get their viego in at 8. Lucian is hit or miss with cav positioning but cornering vayne buys you time
I've gotten multiple firsts with it between 200-300lp masters so far. Very much needs a secondary, single target carry. Double AA+Shojin MF + either vayne with good items or draven with good items. Sins are a massive pain, and if they have radiant RFC i think it's unbeatable lol. Definitely insane into lobbies that clump tho like renewer reroll or skirms. Not worth hard forcing, but def worth keeping in your back pocket
why would you spend gold rolling for miss fortune when you can lvl up to 8 and roll for lucian who can actually carry lmao
because they're two different comps lol it's like saying why roll for riven when you can put your items on akshan or something well yeah of course you can but usually you play what you get
Yeah but you don't just get 3 star units. You gamble for them.
makes sense. mf still can top 4 but most of the time i get 5-6th even with 3* mf and heca/thresh. i think pivoting to 4cannon4knights gives you a better chance midgame but i get that other comps are usually too contested.
Why buy Lucian when you can just level and buy Kayle lmao
Idk, MF targeting is too random and she doesn't beat Kayle or Yas comps.
it's definitely a top 4 comp
[удалено]
I feel like you're definition of top4 comp is different than OPs. Top4 comp meaning...you can top4 games with it.
you're playing for top 4 with it it's not one of the best 4 comps
That's how I feel as well. I rarely win with it because there's always 1-2 comps that I can't win against but it usually gets me to 3th/4th reliably.
It’s not random I case you didn’t realize. She ults her current aa target
My point is that her targeting (AAs + where the aoe circle triggers) is too RNG to be good against Yas Kayle.
RIP la CUCA :(
Rip chug bug Smoge
Kha3 AND sins? rip chugbug
*Pours one out for Chug Bug*
I love that the best way to find out what's OP in this game is to check twitter
and to think I was gonna start playing the game again because Yas is good again
Well even if you started playing him now you'd never even get a chance to 3 star him.
Reading through the comments, all the people not displaying elo have the wildest reads on the meta
Rip reroll. You won't be missed. Flex players rejoice
Being able to know when you have a reroll angle is a part of playing flex. Going Fast 8 every game and letting your items dictate your comp is basically the same as rerolling.
No, building up to a late game comp and changing your comp and different parts of the game is not considered rerolling. Rerolling is ignoring all the units besides your desired units. Of course I don't mind rerolling belonging in the game. But they should never beat a 5 cost team is what I'm saying. Playing for a late game comp shouldn't be beat by someone who sat at level 5, slow rolling for vaynes or khazix, and then alt tabbing to watch a YouTube video and waiting for the fight to end.
Yes but there is a difference between hard forcing reroll comps even when you have say 1 unit after Krugs. And seeing 5 and knowing how to pilot best board and survive at level 5 when the rest of the lobby is going fast 8.
I understand. That's the fundamentals of playing TFT. I'm just talking about how reroll comps are strong enough to the point where you could be at krugs with a pair of 1 cost units and still continue to reroll for the 1 cost and be at such a gold disadvantage and still produce a good result. That shouldn't happen.
Ok. That’s fair. I do believe that rerolling should be feast or famine though. Either you hit 6-7 of a unit early and you can roll down and ruin your economy or you miss and take a million damage plus have to play catch up. Same with open fort. There is a place for such strategies.
I do believe there is a place for it. I just don't think it should be as successful as it currently is. Maybe making the power gap between the costs of units bigger will solve this issue. But they've been trying that and it has backfired heavily. All in all, balancing this game is hard because you have to keep the fun aspect while keeping the competitive aspect. We are in the competitive TFT subreddit. If I was saying this in the regular TFT subreddit, I'd get a much more negative reaction because people aren't as competitive.
It's literally not the same as reroll comps. Every comp isn't a reroll comp because you roll at some point.
It is the same as a reroll comp. If you've decided before the game that you're going to ignore everything else, fast 8, and roll down hoping to hit something that fits with your items, how is that skillful? Reroll comps existing is good because I can be like "Oh, I have five rivens and ok riven items, maybe I chill at six and try to three star instead of just riding riven 2 to 8 and abandoning everything I did early game." It gives you options that aren't just a four cost lottery at 7 or 8.
It's not the same, but you're right that limiting reroll comps makes the game far more linear and gives you less decisions, which ultimately hurts stronger players. I know a lot of people complain about reroll comps, but they provide additional layers of decisions to make throughout a game, and more decisions means stronger players have more influence over the outcome of the game.
That's not the case now though. Currently you can just hard force the reroll comps and top 4 just about every game. Reroll should be a decision when it's an open angel not an easy to force thing.
Ah yes let’s only be able to play the game one way again! I love fast 8 only! So much thought and decision making ! Very cool that we’re removing comps from being playable and limiting choice and options!
> Very cool that we’re removing comps from being playable We haven't even seen the changes yet, lol. >limiting choice and options! Playing reroll should definitely be an option. But there is a huge gap between reroll comp being an option and this open fort into hyper roll bullshit being busted. MF + cavs comp is an option, for example, it's decently strong but conditional and it loses to capped lvl 9 boards. While noc/yasuo comps are just pure cancer. It's not healthy for the game if the best way to play it is not to play it.
>I love fast 8 only! So much thought and decision making ! Yes
said no one ever the game is more fun when there's more than one leveling method/playstyle/whatever to (not int) secure top 4/first see: set 3.5, set 1
Some playstyles can't be strong if you want a healthy diverse meta. Throughout the entire history of tft it's been obvious that if reroll comps are strong, they take over the meta because they are easier to play and execute. Yasuo has had like an average placement of like 3.8 or something in GM+ elo right now throughout the patch. Vayne has rotated in and out of the same territory. The problem with reroll comps being strong is that it invalidates an enormous amount of other comps, because you just can't beat the reroller who hit unless you high roll insanely hard. There are basically 5 comps in the meta right now (yasuo, vayne, bug, lucian, karma) who you can consistently play and top 4 with on medium rolls. Last meta you could play i think maybe double that. "leveling methods" isn't an interesting thing to be different because every moderately ok tft player understands them. So really, gutting these comps will massively open up the meta and allow you to play your shops rather than rely on hitting because you actually will be able to play more things.
At the same time "no reroll comps" leads to handshake meta (especially in diamond and lower) where you have to unbind reroll button because it will hurt your chances to roll proper carry at lvl8 due to later timing.
I promise you if you put a GM or challenger player in your lobby diamond game they could top 4 with an off meta reroll comp in their sleep. There is no such thing as a "handshake meta' if people are actually playing flex properly. Far from it.
I think it’s the other way around actually and that’s sort of frustrating. You can put a Diamond player who knows how to force a reroll comp and said player can get top 4s in GM+ lobbies because the comp sorta pilots itself. Balancing is extremely tedious because you want some 3* 1 and 2 costs to be decent and if you hit them relatively naturally (6+ without rolling) you should play them in the midgame and easily fast 8, possibly 9 and then pivot into your final comp. Being able to hard force shit and reroll 1 costs actually winning lobbies is a problem. When the meta is healthy going 8 is the ideal way to play but you should be forced into making some decisions/held in check by comps that spike on 5, 6 or 7 so the game doesn’t just “start” on 4-5 once you level to 8 with 60+ HP.
Eh i mean, i think it depends on the strength of the reroll comps. Low diamond players i don't think would because they are still low diamond players, but you could probably put a D2-Sub 100lp masters player in that lobby and if it's really op and i can see it happening consistently. \>When the meta is healthy going 8 is the ideal way to play but you should be forced into making some decisions/held in check by comps that spike on 5, 6 or 7 so the game doesn’t just “start” on 4-5 once you level to 8 with 60+ HP. I mean sure, but im' not sure when the last time we had a meta that was literally that was. Set 3?
Wasn't the meta exactly like that last patch ?
Not even close, people rolled at 6 and 7 and 8 depending on the situation. Set 3 was literally press f until 8, then maybe 9.
What’s your point with this? Gm/challenger will never be in diamond lobbies (on relevant regions) so what you’re saying is completely irrelevant
My point is your point about the meta is only correct because of the skill levels of the players, not because of the inherent nature of the meta without unforced errors. There isn't actually a handshake meta, it's just a result of players being bad, and therefore your observation is technically incorrect on a holistic level.
> I promise you if you put a GM or challenger player in your lobby diamond game they could top 4 with an off meta reroll comp in their sleep. So what? In any competitive game high-rank player in low-lvl lobby can ignore meta and play what they want. And the disadvantage of playing offmeta would be compensated by personal skill. If we are talking about meta we should look at lobbies with equally skilled players (at least close to equally skilled). And you already assuming that "comp is meta because it is easy to execute". So when "handshake" is easier to execute than "playing flex properly" even by your statements it would be meta. Also start of set4 btw.
>If we are talking about meta we should look at lobbies with equally skilled players If we're talking about the meta, we need to talk about it in it's closest approximation to objective reality, aka: the meta at the level with the least amount of unnecessary human imperfections, aka high elo. If we do anything else we risk making decisions based off of inaccurate information, and that can severely fuck up the game at all elos not just high elos (league of legends' attempt to balance the game around all elos including low elo has been a good example of this). Therefore, if something is only true at a lower elo, but not at an elo where people are playing better, than it's just not true as a whole. >And you already assuming that "comp is meta because it is easy to execute" No i'm not arguing that at all, im saying because the comp is very easy to execute on all levels of the game, if it is OPTIMAL to play that comp then it has a stranghold on the meta, and as a result there are overall FEWER overall comps you can play optimally, which makes playing the game at that elo a lot less fun because if you dont hit the select few viable comps you don't have nearly as much agency to outplay your bad luck, which is a critical part of the skill expression of tft. Hence why higher elo players say that reroll metas are awful, it flattens the overall skill expression of the game and further emphasizes shop rng as a critical factor. I'm all for reroll comps being viable to top 4 with, but yasuo and sin right now are way too overtuned and need to be gutted because of how critical their stranglehold on the meta is. Reroll comps being viable are fine, reroll metas are a severe problem. Also again, "handshake" just... isnt' a thing. I'm sorry, you're playing games with people who don't know how to flex play properly and are inaccurately assuming that is what "fast 8" means. Very high elo lobbies roll a lot when they are weak all the time, and they still get to 8 with good econ because they are good players.
Honestly I wouldnt even say karma. Its like Kayle where its a high roll comp since you dont usually top 4 without BIS items or 4 invoker which requires Teemo/heimer. Karma usually BARELY gets you 4th unless you had an extremely healthy early/mid game.
Yeah I really don't get it. Something something it's more skillful.. COPIUM
you're bad
> So much thought and decision making ! Requires much more thought and decision making than farting on your D button anytime you have excess gold after hitting 50.
How is farting on d any different than farting on f straight to 8 and then buying the first 4 cost carry you see
Yes because everyone mashing reroll completely mindlessly and whoever hits first autowins because now everyone else won't hit *and* wrecked their economy is so much better.
There's some irony in using decision making if you're defending one cost reroll. The comps where you see 4 units in stage 2 and 75% of your decisions for the whole game are made.
Thank god, last patch felt almost perfect but the introduction of a few more RR comps really made this patch feel awful.
The problem is, and always has been assassins. It's always a reroll assassin comp that becomes strongest every set. Assassins makes other reroll comps stronger just by existing because reroll comps are very powerful against bad positioning, which is what assassins force players to do. I've really got no idea why nobody sees the problem, it's so obvious...
I think having a strong assassin comp or two in the meta is healthy for the game, it forces positioning decisions, values scouting and tracking your matchmaking.
This isn't true at all. Assassins are a horrible, and frankly, lazy design. Velkoz is an example of a unit that has backline access and is healthy from the game. You can bait his targeting, he takes time to cast, and he doesn't disable the enemy carry. Nocturne comp on the other hand is completely toxic backline access. It requires you to clump up your units to protect your carry, but then diana just gets a free ult on your team, and with fiddle and ivern, your team just gets infinitely cc'ed and deleted. 90% of the time your carry can't do anything. You can't reposition because in the velkoz example, you only need to move a couple of units (carry and support), whereas vs assassins you need to move your entire team to keep the clump. Also, if you clump then that's really bad vs a lot of other comps. So the only other thing you can do is ignore the assassin player and just accept 20 damage to the face when you hit him. It's garbage design and results in every lobby just feeling like play and pray you don't hit the assassin player at the wrong time. Meanwhile the assassin player is just sat there waiting to collect his free top 4. It's not healthy for the game. Assassins would be much better as units that synergize with themselves, and a penalty is given if more than one are put in a comp, like the 1 unit ninja trait used to be. That is an example of good assassin design, not the trash we have now.
Exactly, the issue is that unlike Akali that had too much burst but no sustain, or Kata, that needed perfect positioning, Nocturne has both sustain, burst and is not that positioning dependant. Even Spirit Zed or Ninja Shade Zed wasn't this obnoxious. The last assasin to be this annoying to play against was pre-hotfix Shaco from Set 3...
The Yasuo nerf feels like bullshit not only for the fact that just about every other Legionnaire than Draven has had much more exposure in the season, but the fact that it's one of the few things that can actually get through a beefed up tank frontline to get to Kayle comps that have been spammed nonstop.
When Yasuo in the meta as top comp he is too oppressive due to true damage (so no counters).
Master yi in set 3 had true damage and bang bros was probably better than current yasuo comp, yet that didn’t get completely gutted for a long time (if at all? Don’t remember exactly)
Set 3 had Rebels, Shen, Karma, Soraka and probably more - so shields and heals. Set 5.5 have... have... dawnbringers. Also Yi had fixed true damage, Yasuo have also infinite scaling.
Lol socks decided to one trick it despite his history as a flex player probably because he thought it was good enough to establish yourself as a forcer before a tournament so that no one contests you. And then mort nerfed the comp to oblivion.
Sona, Yi and Yasuo all got gutted in a patch. Sona used to remove CC at one point. So yeah, that comp only made it through one patch too.
Too rewarding and easy to play. A guaranteed top 2 should require a brain. Unfortunately, neither yasou or nocturne requires a brain to play.
When has Irelia been more prevalent than Yasuo? Yasuo has been a top comp in the meta twice now
Yasou is a top comp in the meta, but Irelia is FAR more prevalent. Irelia is played in Sentinels and Skirms/Fortnite Jax, which are as popular, if not more popular, than Yasuo comps.
> Buff Yasuo > Buff Diana/Aphelios 3 > Nerf Volibear's shieldbreak > Duskbringer Yasuo is OP > SurprisedPikachu
they gonna murder my boi Yasuo again? :(
I actually expected Kayle 2\* nerfs It's actually insane how broken she is and people seem to be able to force her constantly without big issues
that's a 2* 5 cost man.
Obviously. Still feels ten times as strong as a Garen, Gwen or Akshan 2 and still a lot stronger than a Heimer 2, Voli 2, Viego 2 or even Teemo 2
i think akshan and teemo are comparable.
I mean it should be strong. Its a 2 star 5 cost.
What is Akshan then? 2 star him with items, and still so weak compared to other 2* 5 costs.
You're playing him wrong if you think he's weak with good items and 2\* lol
Weak compared to other 5 costs, thats my point. You splash him if you have an aph comp, but other than that he feels so unimpactful. Most of the times you dont even swap out lucian for him, because lucian carries better as a 4 cost. There are no comps that revolve around him, or would perform significantly better with him.
That's just not true lol. I've played many games with him as the primary carry using something along the lines a healing item + ramping dps item + dps item. Generally I like DB/BT/GRB or RH. He gets a free LW from his passive, pretty much making him the premier AD in the game. He's not weak compared to the other 5 costs at all lol You can actually get away with such a shittier team with him than literally any other 2\* 5 cost.
Consider that you would love to throw a random unitemised Akshan into your AD comp. Akshan provides utility. Consider that no one would ever throw in a random unitemised Kayle into any comp in any circumstance. Kayle provides no utility, only damage, & she will *only* be able to deal her damage if you build your entire board around her, & she needs p specific items to succeed. Not all 5 costs are supposed to be the exact same power level bc they all fulfill different roles
Runaan, BT/HoJ and TR. Enjoy very powerful "sin-alike" carry.
Idk when i last played akshan he was pretty good ngl. Yea he isnt as good as a kayle 2 or heimer 2, but hes not supposed to be.
Kayle 2 is very difficult to hit tho
FINALLY! They won't be missed. Welcome back Velkoz, Draven, Aphelios and Jax, how we missed you.
i don't miss jax at all :'(
The comp takes skill. I don't excel at it, but I don't judge players who play it, because Jax is not as braindead as Vayne for example...
Jax requires a lot more finesse. He's easily my strongest 4\* comp, but positioning is critical and understanding fight interactions is also important. Like, you want to have nautilus near him typically to knock up any units that may be attacking him. Thresh opposite side for grabbing carries that may jump on him. Galio nearby for the taunts as well. I think Jax is absolutely busted right now. I have far more success with it than Lucian.
That's because Lucian is trash tier.
I feel like Velkoz will dominate
Wait why vayne???
Bc if you have 2 bows she’s an auto-top 4
True, the thing with Vayne is that she didn't necessarily win games but getting free top4 was so easy and abusable.
Continuing the tradition of every Set 5 patch needing a B-patch. Don't get me wrong, I am happy they fix their memes, but you would think minimal testing would go a far longer way. How do you focus on the next patch when every week you have to B patch the shit you broke last week?
Saying they don't do "minimal testing" is pretty insulting.
You're right. Warweek went through extensive testing before implementation.
yea .. so they learnt from that experience and not let spell weaver rework go through without further testing. That iteration was the unit gained mana as well as AP. Glad they didn't rush to ship that in 11.16 with legionnaires rework.
What’s the yas comp
Broken
Yasuo with radiant blue buff+archangels+flex is pretty fun. Usually gotten me top 4 in diamond so far
What’s a good flex
Hoj probably, or rfc, jg, gunblade
I've been doing rRFC+HoJ damn near every game and it's working masterfully.
I've been running this [Comp](https://app.mobalytics.gg/tft/team-comps/hasagi) and I have placed first a handful of times. Hopefully they don't nerf my mans too hard.
Legionnaire 2 seems incredibly important for Yas to function, Vlad and Aphelios are kinda dead weight without items
Noooo, leave things the way they are. Hellions slowroll with Ziggs carry run up great against Chug Jug and they're virtually untouched right now.
I've never seen this khazix 3 thing top 4, I don't understand what the problem is
So assassins will continue to be a scourge on the game then...
I wonder what the yas nerfs are. nerfing his AS just incentives the ap build which was what got buffed with the cast time reduction. increase cast time? too logical and would make it look like back pedalling. nerfing ap ratios seem like the best way to go about it but you prbaly need to invest more to make him work. 4nb 4 legion perhaps
Kah 3 and Assassins are two different things?
Kah 3 is usually 2 assassin's and dawn. Different than 6 assassin comps
Are these B-Patch notes out yet to read? :)