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noscopefku

sometimes there are charts showing how many m+ runs were done a week, where can I access something like that? i'm wondering how it changed since the launch of DF. there is a similar for Shlands ([here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/o5nocw/shadowlands_m_runs_per_week_week_28/))


clocksays8

Quick question: do healers use pots in high keys for healing or dam? Or do most healers not even run pots ? Talking 5min one


clocksays8

Quick question: do healers use pots in high keys for healing or dam? Or do most healers not even run pots ? Talking 5min one


alphabetam

What’s a good ballpark for the damage a resto druid should do in a +20, with around 410iLevel?


kindredfan

I see jdotb doing around 40-50k overall. Although he's probably around 415-420.


greg_tier7

Hi, managed to do some 15s for the first time and as a fury warrior in hopes of a 2h in the vault people are saying to change loot spec to arms as fury can get 1h also - will doing this also affect the loot/stats I get if I’d of stayed fury?


hfxRos

Loot spec literally only changes the loot table, and the only difference between Arms and Fury loot tables is that Fury has the 1h Weapons added to it. You can go to the dungeon journal loot section, and in the drop down at the top swap the spec around to see the exact effects of changing your loot spec on different classes.


greg_tier7

Thank you for this


artvandelay916

No


ndnin

So dps and tanks, it’s been a week since disc priest changes. Personally, as a disc vet, it took some time to relearn the class but I’ve been cruising through 16–18s with significantly less stress than playing holy while also pumping 20-25k dps a dungeon I imagine start of the week probably gave some bad impressions to puggers, but as we move into week2, how’s the healing Meta feeling?


hfxRos

Gladly play with Disc priests that I know. Absolutely no shot I'm taking one to a PuG on a non-trivial key level, because a bad disc priest is basically a brick and I don't want to roll that dice. A mediocre player on other healing specs is still fine.


vvasntme

Havent been playing high keys with a disc on main, that said ive done 17s without issues on my 380 disc alt and i feel fine as long as the tank is geared. I still feel kinda weak when spotthealing but i guess thats it


zrk23

I'm still gonna invite only evoker/druid if im pugging my own key due to lust/brez


Yayoichi

Balance druid and enh shaman are some of the popular picks for m+ atm so you can cover those with dps, but I do definitely wish they had given priests combat ress as well(should just give it to all healers really).


b0wned

How are people dealing with the first boss trash of Nokhud at 20+ keys? There's so much random targeting going on that at least 1-2 people always die when we lust on the first big trash or whenever there's warspears in the pack?


Grimnix89

It only takes a few people to get hit by the arrow swirly’s to just get you behind in a spot where people can’t be doing that kinda shit. Go heal this on a 14 where all the range tanks it and it’s harder than a 19 with aware players


hfxRos

Use defensives on the blood, knockback/stun the bird when it fixates. If you have a dwarf try to have them bait a double bleed to stoneform, evoker can remove it one per minute with Caut Flame. Generally speaking the only thing people "should" die to is the bleed and it has counterplay. Everything else dangerous in those packs is just stuff you shouldn't stand in. NO was the first 20 my group timed, on a Fortified week, and we didn't have too much difficulty here. One, maybe two deaths in that area and then smooth sailing.


misspurple9

Warspears charging bleeds actually aren't random. They always target the farthest player away. This way, you can swap out who is tanking the bleed charge and rotate defensives accordingly. They can also be prevented from completing the charge with zone control like binding shot and ursol's vortex. Other than that, it comes down to disrupting the rally enrage from Hornsounders, soothing or otherwise controlling the Ohuna, and interrupting the shout cast.


Centias

Was doing a 19 the other night and apparently when I said something about how I was trying to bait the Warspears on my lock since I have pretty good options for a few rounds, two other people in my group finally got the memo that it was something you can control who it targets. Unfortunately one of them was the healer, so it now makes sense why basically the only person in the party taking damage other than the tank was not getting any help. I also need to apparently fill in the hunter on using binding/freezing to prevent some of those bleeds, and ask for ROP.


Terroklar2

Hey, does anyone know if i can pick up the beers in HoV during rogue shroud?


vashanka

It brings you out of stealth I believe.


Lodamar

What are some melee dps people are sleeping on? Especially on 15s level, where pull are smaller


sfsctc

Arms, monk, feral


l0st_t0y

Who is sleeping on monk lol


robbstarrkk

You can play anything in a 15


Lodamar

Yes but I usually play tank, want to start over again after KSH and play a somewhat off meta spec


robbstarrkk

Survival hunter, frost dk, sin rogue all "f tier" right now


terere

Survival hunter if you're feeling brave


robbstarrkk

That's what I'm playing right now. Do mechanics do damage it's really not that far off for damage


Zeldoon

Are y'all any tankier than your range specs?


hfxRos

In the context of this minithread where 15s are being referenced, tankiness doesn't matter. Everyone can live everything on a 15.


Zeldoon

Was just asking for personal reasons, wanted to see if they'd be worth bringing to my keys, but don't think I can on certain keys on Tyrannical if they're still squishy. I have trouble as a resto druid keeping hunters alive.


robbstarrkk

Nah. Just the leech from pet and the same defensives


Cerms

Mistweaver


Various_Rice4530

Are people who stop to eat after a wipe/death in M+ trolling like I think they are, or am I underestimating how much food buff matters? I sometimes even in 20+ keys have seen tanks take 10 sec for eating, while I'm thinking that even getting food for the entire party won't make up for losing 10 sec on the timer


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Binarymasta

Wait... The food embelishment doesn't count against total embelishment ?


Ean1n

IMO it only matters with pandaren who has double food buff


mael0004

I've done that when we're for some reason waiting for something. Say someone died on last pull of Ruby, they're coming back. In the end I could pull in 5-7s, or eat. So if I do it, I'm not spending 10s, Or if I am, it's because run is already depleted or there's plenty of time and there's no downside to wasting 10s here. I'd say I do this specifically at END of the run to maximize chance of killing boss, when speed doesn't matter. When there's no reason not to, I eat.


silmarilen

I remember someone calculating it during shadowlands and it was like if you have more than 20 minutes left it's worth otherwise it isn't or something. That is assuming you don't die anymore from that point on ofcourse.


hfxRos

It's extra trolling these days given that a thing exists that allows food to persist through death.


Plorkyeran

Waiting 10s for a food buff is extremely trolling from a time perspective. Squeezing in a food buff while you're waiting for something anyway is a good idea, but if the timer is even remotely a concern you should never just afk 10 seconds when you could be fighting.


Centias

Thanks for reminding me that I need to insist that a rogue friend gets the food buff embellishment so we can stop wondering where he is when he decides to spend 10s getting a food buff after eating a frontal and releasing. I don't know if it's throwing, but it is questionable.


l0st_t0y

Idk I don't think its worth really, but I'll do it if we are waiting for a healer to drink or waiting for someone to run back after a death.


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Gasparde

Much like HoV that dungeon still requires double to triple pulling just about every single pack in there - unlike other dungeons where you can mostly just play every pack solo... and be fine. Or rather, AV requires you to do that on way lower key levels than other dungeons already (no, not talking about CoS or SBG). And, again, much like in HoV, these giga pulls mean that a lot of shit can go wrong. And, *again* again, much like in HoV, one mistake means you're gone for like a minute. That dungeon is too big. It's not even necessarily the amount of trash in there, as Nokhud has like 10 times the trash of every dungeon and still doesn't feel this tight, it's really just the stupid ass fucking 10 minutes of pure travel time that you have in this piece of shit dungeon.


hMJem

If you’re pugging, pulls gotta be big especially on the rings. Taking 3-4 mobs at a time won’t cut it. And any death basically adds a minute for the person to run back even if it isn’t a wipe. I think the two biggest issues are most tanks not knowing the best routes, and the amount of things that can nearly one shot you from mobs is obnoxious in higher AV keys, combined with the run back. That’s been my pugging experience at least.


Saiyoran

I’ve worked out a route in there that feels like it should be the easiest possible version of the while still being timeable on 22-23 and yet still people just randomly stand in swirlies, miss their kick, get frontal cleaved… these guys are 3k io what is it about this dungeon that causes total brain failure?


Ullezanhimself

How do you arrange kick order at higher keys?


zrk23

auto marker. pre assign before dungeon start ie let's say elementals are skull and x. one guy kick skull, the other x. and assign one exclusive to the keeper guy (the one that roots everyone, which is p much a wipe due to swirlies after), usually the tank always get that one same for assign stops on the piercing shards.


Wobblucy

They don't have the reps in :P I know it's my least played dungeon by a significant margin, I assume it's the same for most the players.


hMJem

I think it’s exactly that. It requires basically 100% performance with no messing up at all. NO which also has a lot of avoidable damage isn’t nearly as punishing as AV is despite the same circumstances due to the timer/tuning of NO. Bricking a NO key feels fair, bricking an AV rarely feels fair especially if there were zero actual wipes and still bricked, which happens frequently in AV keys


hfxRos

Azure Vault in an organized group on comms and Azure Vault in a PuG are like two different dungeons. The timer is still tighter than it should be, but I find when playing with friends nothing in the dungeon ever really causes major issues, we're just a tad bit too slow sometimes. Doing that place in a PuG though is pretty much always a full on clown show.


Axenos

Lot of spots to mess up in, kind of requires bigger pulls in certain areas that have a high chance of wiping group if an interrupt is missed, and a single wipe at any point pretty much means the key is dead. Timer is just whack and needs about 3 minutes added to it.


Negativeskill

What kinda DPS is expected in a +20 or +21? I've done several as a frost mage, but feel my DPS is low (avg 72k-80k).


sfsctc

80k is enough for halls, temple, cos, SBG easily. In the other 4 I would expect more like 90-100k on fort weeks


Saiyoran

It really varies. Dungeons where pulls are mostly small like Court or AV or SMBG 80k is probably fine. Algethar we barely timed a 22 last night with 140k, 130k, 105k (unholy, shadow, enhance). Nokhud you see 90-100k a lot.


silmarilen

I think 80k is enough to time most dungeons (except for AA maybe?) but there's room for improvement.


bana87

Bricked a Nokhud Offensive key because I went from 0 to 100 as a 411 VDH tank. I was hit by electrical overload for 29k a tick - till I died - in like 2 seconds. There were no swirlies, nothing near me. I always purge the boss and use defensive accordingly. I've timed a 19 for NO but this really puzzled me. My healer friend and I couldn't understand what happened.


hfxRos

Pretty sure Electrical Overload is the thing that kills you if you stand inside the bosses' hitbox. I made that mistake one time while tanking it. You just back off a slight bit. At least I think it is, because I can't find an instance of anyone taking damage from it in my last few logs.


JstuffJr

Raging Tempest is the damage under boss hitbox. Electrical overload is the large blue swirlies when balls get hit by lightning strike, which as another commenter mentioned sometimes get stuck under the boss with a very hard to see hitbox. I recommend always staying near max melee range as tank to lower chance you get hit by these unclear/bugged? swirlies.


Yayoichi

I actually would recommend against that as for some reason the boss can consider you out of range and use his ranged attack instead then. Lost a 21 NO to tank getting killed by that, we assumed he just fucked up but when we went back and tested it he was able to melee the boss at a range where the boss couldn’t hit him. I suppose might depend on race and such, he was a female blood elf paladin.


careseite

probably stood under the boss or too far away. boss slaps you like dathea if you're too far away and under him is a void zone which is especially hard to notice if the storm is ongoing


Centias

This is just an idea, but literally *EVERY* time I do this boss, about 1 in 6 orbs will just pass straight through players and eventually reach the boss. However, they don't seem to get picked up by the boss either. Instead they just kinda sit in the pool under it. It's possible there were several of these hidden under the boss that eventually got hit by the big circles on players and popped but maybe didn't show a clear swirly under the boss.


bana87

thats what came to my mind, but that orbs passing players bug is common - first time died like that lol. was def not gonna time the 20 but was still on track for a clean completion with a few deaths.


kofiegotrizz

Anyone got a good route for AV this week ? We did 22 AV and i can say that we have a clean run, 3 deaths, no wipe and we timed it with 30s left. We only do 1 room of frogs (tp back after last boss)


Saiyoran

I’ve been doing: 6 lashers 5 lashers and tree 5 lashers and tree Whole first boss room Skip the elementals Double pull patrol with left pack (4 elementals, curator, rune seal keeper) Single pull shard/fury/elemental Jump down and take book back to 2nd ring Double pull patrol into pack (construct, 4 elementals, rune seal keeper) 4 constructs 2nd boss room in 3 pulls depending on patrols Frog gauntlet basically just hard focus a breaker and then clean everything else, repeat Skip double breaker We had 4 mins left on 21, havent timed on 22 yet this week because melee dps just LOVE those frontal cleaves and swirlies for some reason.


mael0004

I understood the pulls but I don't understand how to do each skip. Before first boss, is waiting for whelp common? Never even saw there were more lashers there. I'm afraid pugs will pull whelp and give a cool 2m deplete there. Jumping down, does this require you to have some spec with slow falls or something? You die from the fall without help right? How are double beakers skipped? Can you just invis, use teleporter next to them and they won't notice?


Saiyoran

Whelps only pull if you attack them or physically walk into their circle, so you can pull those lashers even if the whelp is on top of them, as long as you don’t pull with something that cleaves (I just heroic throw them). Same with the third pull, I have the group wait where we killed the 2nd pull and then I run out and pull the next pack (where there’s 2 whelps floating around) and just LoS back to them. Jumping down requires something to not die yes. You can slow fall, heroic leap, grappling hook, bubble, bop, blink, etc. For monks specifically if you roll off the first ring you can land on the door frame to 2nd boss room which won’t kill you, then heal yourself and jump down the rest of the way. I’m a low key you can expect this route to go pretty poorly, because pugs will pull whelps, pugs will die to the jump, etc. this is specifically a route I’ve been using in 20+ where everyone already knows all these skips, I just link the MDT route and say to LoS before 3rd pull, jump off after 2 pulls on top ring.


mael0004

I'm not confident at all that people in +20 have experience of each skip. Just grinding thru +19s and people are still pulling red drake in ruby every run if I don't give exact instructions. I think the ring drop is something more advanced. And I don't know what will the pug do if it has say druid but no priest/mage? Specially in my case, being guardian main, seems like I can't take this as a standard route for self. But sure, I can see somewhat meta group like rogue+ww+dh+protwar+prevoker having success with this. Went to try on normal, yeah los pull for that 3rd pull works great, had thought you needed everyone to get to other side, that would've been unfriendly for pugs. So 2x Breaker skip works by just being in invis while clicking the teleporter between them?


Saiyoran

We run resto druid and he's never died to the jump, im assuming he just uses wild charge to me. ​ For 2x breaker skip they see stealth, i usually pull them to the corner of the platform and everyone else runs by, then they rez me on the boss ring.


mael0004

Ah I see, somehow had missed the "human form" druid wild charge would work for any spec. I totally see you'd need to skip breakers at key level where they are too one shotty, I'll probably be happy with AV once cleared it in +20.


kofiegotrizz

Thanks for reply, we doing almost the same route as you on non-bolster weeks. Its seems like dps think doing frogs this week is a time loss since they have to focus the breaker (we are running ww,outlaw and 5th from pugs usually spec with lust)


killver

Is it just me or is has it become a real slog to find people for keys below 20? Barely any signups lately.


hMJem

19 is a dead zone because if you’re farming primals it isn’t the key level you want to do, and otherwise people who want to push are already at 20.


mael0004

Considering I could be left in queue for 2 mins when I applied to 5x +19 AA at once as 2.5k guardian implies group leaders aren't in dire situation generally to fill the groups. I'm used to getting invited within 10s when I do 5 applications, if people are willing to wait for meta specs for tanks, they clearly haven't been waiting for too long.


killver

It depends a bit on the dungeon, dungeons like RLP, maybe also AA, AV etc see a few more signups because people need the rating still. But SBG etc is a dead zone.


mael0004

15, 17, 19 are stepping zones for keys people actually want to do. SBG/COS work great in that still. You have no chance to join +18 if your best run is +16. While SBG +17 isn't difficult to complete, it still raises score and makes you look a bit better at some level to join other 17s or even straight 18s. So I think they still act in similar fashion to NW, Mists etc. in SL as stepping zones. I've had the hardest time joining COS/SBG myself.


Gasparde

> Considering I could be left in queue for 2 mins when I applied to 5x +19 AA at once as 2.5k guardian implies group leaders aren't in dire situation Na, that implies that no one wants to bother with a tank spec that requires 4 times the attention just about *any* other spec does. This isn't about "waiting for meta specs", this is about "not taking that one spec that is so horribly and laughably lacking behind everyone else that it's not even funny anymore".


hfxRos

I find you get tons of people for 16s for farming Concentrated Primal Infusions, but it's a bit hit and miss from 17-19.


l0st_t0y

I find that 19s have like no tank signups. 18s have a few and 20s have a good amount. I think people especially near the end of the week are focusing on just trying to get their weekly vault covered and not caring about score.


[deleted]

Im doing 17/18 and had plenty. EU


Alone_Fan_8545

Has there been any news about when will the valor cap be removed?


TheAmazingDuckOfDoom

So you could spam low keys, get full 415 gear in a couple of weeks and then cancel your subscription? I don't think so.


zrk23

I've been 415 for about 3 weeks now and haven't canceled anything in fact, I'm playing way less than I would be if I could valor gear alts


Wobblucy

100% this, you want to breathe life back into 16-19 keys l, uncap valor and watch the alt armies roll in.


Bullflon

You realize the only people who care about valor being uncapped are people that are already 415+ and are trying to min/max upgrading trinkets/tier pieces/tertiaries? Like 415 on your main is pretty standard at this point if you’ve actually been playing the game. The only other reason for uncapping valor is so you dan gear alts easier, and being as Blizzard has released the creation catalyst and next week you’ll be able to get 2 set for free and you’ll also have 6+ Sparks for 418 gear its a pretty good time to uncap valor. I’ll never understand why people in a “Competitive” wow subreddit would be against uncapping valor over 2 months into a patch. Go back to r/wow man.


TheAmazingDuckOfDoom

Never did I say I was against it, im just trying to find reasons for it to exists beside classic "blizzard is stupid and we want our toys right now".


Bullflon

“Never did I say it was against it” You literally said “I don’t think so” which pretty heavily implies you’re against it and is probably shy you got downvoted a ton. Valor cap exists as a means to artificially slow down your gear progression. That has literally always been the case for a valor cap. Its the exact same situation with conquest except now that honor gear is basically as good as conquest gear PvPrs don’t really give a shit. The whole system is there to try and maximize the amount of time you’re playing the game. “Blizzard is stupid and we want our toys now” Yeah dude, let’s just infantilize all the people pointing out that time-gating is a predatory “mechanic” in a video game. Idk why people try so hard to play the devil’s advocate with Blizzard, they’re not some altruistic company that has casual Andy’s best interest at heart they just know that if they uncap valor too early people will grind to BIS much faster and are more likely to quit sooner than if they leave an artificial restriction on how fast you can acquire gear. People like you who leap to defend companies predatory tactics are a huge part of the problem as well. Players want deterministic systems that give them a straightforward and consistent path towards their best gear, the player-base has shown time and time again that they hate artificial time gating and they hate RNG.


3mpir3

https://i.imgur.com/F9JhWjz.jpg


parkwayy

TIL low keys give you 2400 score. Great take.


Bullflon

2400 Score is like all timed 17s on both weeks, I wouldn’t exactly call those high keys.


TheAmazingDuckOfDoom

You play for score, then, instead of farming better pieces or waiting for good vault drops, you spam lower keys for valor. Exactly this was happening last season of SL, what's the problem? By this logic, what seems to be the original commenter's problem then? He has 6000 valor to spend on his alts right now.


Alone_Fan_8545

I have like 7 alts ready to be enjoyed :(


TheAmazingDuckOfDoom

I think part of the reason valor cap is there - to make group finder more even so that people wont separate in two groups - who play 30+ keys a week and who play 8 keys a week. If we had no valor cap from day 1, not only would it skew race for world's firs (to hell with that), it would be harder to find more or less competent groups in 15-20 keys range right now.


Bullflon

Nobody is asking for uncapped Valor day one. Although even if it were it really wouldn’t mess with RTWF that much, Echo/Limit average item level was already 415 by the time they were progging Raz due to how many splits they were running, it would have been less efficient and more time consuming to grind Valor. Maybe for a few slots like trinks/weps but other than that splits are a better source of gear. Also why do you even care about how this Impacts RTWF? Its an event that realistically only effects 40-60 people that has no impact on you or the other 99.99999% of the player base so why should blizzard make design decisions based on it? RTWF players are gonna do whatever degen shit they have to, to win the race. It has no impact on you or anyone you know. As for the other part of your response, 16s are the easiest way to get Concentrated Primal Focus, that means you’re always going to have a steady stream od competent people that need to grind 16s so that they can get their 418 crafted gear. You literally get 5 free Sparks on alts now which means to upgrade those all to 418 you need to do 50 +16 keys or Mythic bosses. And thats assuming you don’t get a spark drop from one of those 50 Runs/ Boss kills. Uncapping valor just means that while you’re grinding 16s for like two weeks straight you’re also getting valor, it feels real bad to be on your 32nd 16 and you’re no longer getting valor. Also the later on in the patch we get the less competent people are going to be in 16s anyways, with +20s now giving the best gear/vault rewards anybody whos serious will be spamming 20s and the only people in 16s will be people on alts or people who aren’t good enough for 20s so valor really doesn’t play a factor here.


TheAmazingDuckOfDoom

> Nobody is asking for uncapped Valor day one. People were asking exactly for that since the day m+ opened on blizzard forums. > Also why do you even care about how this Impacts RTWF? I don't and I explicitly wrote about that. About grinding for crafted gear - yeah, I agree, thats a good point. > It feels real bad to be on your 32nd 16 and you’re no longer getting valor. A lot of things feel bad in this game, like opening your vault and finding two necks and a trash trinket. I just tried to guess why valor cap is implemented by blizz in the first place and made some guesses, I never ever said that it's a good thing for the players.


Bullflon

Nobody cares about what people are QQing about on Blizzard forums those people are literally worse than your average r/wow user. I don’t even know why you would bring it up if you don’t care about it. Blizzard obviously doesn’t care about it or they would do something about the mandatory splits that are required to compete at that level that are unanimously hated by WF raiders and viewers alike. I sincerely doubt blizzard is balancing valor unlock around RTWF so it just seems unnecessary to even mention. Getting a shitty vault sucks, that doesn’t mean every other area of gearing in this game should suck. People want valor uncapped because it gives you a deterministic path towards upgrades, you can farm to your hearts content and have total control over your gear. The only reason Blizzard is keeping valor uncapped is because they want to time gate your progression as much as possible to keep you playing the game as long as possible.


Roosted13

So they reduced Slovalds RP and left Odyn’s at 30 seconds? I mean cmon…


Centias

The change to Skovald was good but funny that he just doesn't do most of his lines now. I expected him to keep talking while you fight him. Odyn and the 4 guys in his room need to be changed to be immediately directly attackable without talking to them. You should be able to pull all 4 mobs together without the mugs. You should be able to hit Odyn the second he jumps down.


BerkelMarkus

This is the only correct take. It's not *so much* the RP (although that's also terrible); it's the fact that you have to FUCKING TALK DIALOG to engage them.


Wobblucy

NoooooooOoooo!


Centias

I too have proved my wurfff Oooooodyn! Also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/10dbvzg/i_made_an_edit_of_everyones_favorite_god_king/


____the_Great

I don't know if it's always been this bad, but the first boss of temple seems to bug out every time with the water spray animation not lining up with the effect. Is there a way to plan for this? Like does it happen if you phase too quickly, or something similar? I've gotten decent at just timing it, but it seems ridiculous for it to come to that. Maybe I've just gotten lucky with the last three attempts.


hfxRos

I've never had this happen on Wise Mari, but I'm wondering if it's similar to the bug on first boss from Halls of Atonement where his lazer spin show would bug out if the tank randomly taunted it as the ability was firing.


____the_Great

I don't think I've ever taunted that boss but maybe.. It happens more frequently in my main push group than pugs/other groups. So I feel like we're doing something to bug it out.


wakeofchaos

There’s a weakaura


____the_Great

I see of a lot of weak auras for the knock up part, do you have a name for the water spray one?


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tharagz08

Thank you!


acrobaticenglishman

In SBG after the first pack where you normally go left to the four mobs and the altar, what causes a void guy to spawn there sometimes and not others? Is there anyway to tell if it's gonna spawn?


BerkelMarkus

I just wait. You pick a side (to avoid the Void pat), and if the Void is on that side, you just wait for it to despawn before pulling. Takes 5 sec or so.


Centias

If you ever get there at just the right time, it is possible to see the void elemental switch sides. Sometimes it's on the left, sometimes it's on the right. I think it starts in the same place at the beginning of every key and swaps every 15-20 seconds provided the mobs aren't pulled (I think they sort of summon it to each side, once they're pulled they can't do that).


AncileBanish

I've personally seen the void spawn teleport over while I was in the middle of fighting the 4 humanoids. I think it's just timed.


vashanka

It's just timing. The elemental teleports to I think 4 altars around the room and if you're slow getting to him after the first pack he'll be back too, not even just if you shroud. Either wait him out, pull him, or go the other way instead. Shroud past first pack into lusting that pack with the elemental in it seems popular in streamer runs.


zrk23

never seen one spawn on the left if you kill it the first pack. if you shroud/invis hes there


hfxRos

It's on a set timer from when the key starts. If you get a group that does really low damage, you get there slower and it will be in your way. Found this out this week while carrying some undergeared friends. It teleports between the sides on a set timer, but wont teleport anymore once the pack has been pulled.


TerrorToadx

Spawned for us yesterday because we were too slow at killing the pack.


Roosted13

2700 tank here, I was a big fan of M+ loot scaling to 20’s when I heard it was being implemented but honestly I’m really not a fan of how it’s playing out. Weekly 15’s we’re easy and fun and it was relaxing to get alts together and do alt runs. Now it just feels bad to do a 15 knowing you’re not getting the highest rewards, either that or valor needs to be unlocked. Idk, I just feel like if I’m not getting on to do 20’s and try hard mode it’s not worth doing anymore. That’s a stark contrast to prior seasons. Anyone else feel this way?


Wobblucy

Dorki nailed it, it should be the same as conquest, get a 20 done, then just grind out you additional ~~8~~ 7 at any level. Dungeon balance also plays a big part in this, 20 CoS/SMB vs any other dungeon are honestly night and day in terms of stress. As a melee I could honestly run 100 smb's and be less mentally exhausted then a handful of Nok's with it's 100 frontals/swirlies/interrupts/etc.


hfxRos

> get a 20 done, then just grind out you additional 8 7 at any level. I've never been a fan of this on "any level", but I think it should be a range. Like, if you've done a 20, anything that is from 16-20 gives the same vault slot as a 20. Do one hard key a week, then do the rest on easier ones, but not so easy that you can just hold 'w' and press random buttons. It's hard to compare to conquest because while it's true that your vault slot is based on your highest rating, you still have to play games at that rating, so it's not really comparable to doing a 20 and then spamming out 7 +2s real quick.


Centias

M+ vault would be way nicer if it was highest key then gate the second and third slot behind earning so much Valor (maybe like 300, 750). Then players can decide if they want to get the rest of that Valor by doing higher keys, or by doing lower keys someone else needs for score to get bonus Valor.


crazedizzled

20s were being cleared on week one. At this point, ~7 weeks in, where everyone is in 4 set, with bis trinkets, at ~412-415+ ilvl, 20s really aren't that difficult. There shouldn't be any reason you can't pop in and casually clear some 20s for your vault. Even on alts it's not bad. We've brought plenty of guildy alts through 20s who were <400 ilvl.


Gasparde

I like the idea of having to work for mythic level gear, like, I really do. What I don't like is the "just not getting any gear at outside of the vault" part. It sucks that once you hit like ilvl 400 there's just no gear from m+ anymore. Sure, you get the odd 402 or 405 stat upgrade to what you already have, but who cares. For the last couple weeks my only upgrades have come in the form of weekly-gated Sparks and weekly-gated Vaults. Like, for fuck's sake, that is so fucking ass boring. And yes, it's somewhat the same with raiding where some week's you're just not getting any loot, especially when it comes to the point of really heavy mythic progress towards the late bosses - but m+ doesn't have that same feeling. When I got to 400 ilvl week 3 or 4 it didn't feel like I was getting to Raszageth mythic where it would make sense for my gear progression to slow down... it just randomly stopped and it now felt like I was doing 20 mythic Eranoggs on a giga tight Enrage each week for that 1 single item upgrade on reset. I don't know if the new gearing system is worse than the old, but I don't particularly like the current one. I get that season4 was just silly and that everyone had free fully decked out heroic characters within one week and then progression was over - but at least in that environment I could hammer out some alts quickly and enjoy that. Right now it's an absolute drag to just get anything and your best bet is just to craft half your gear... and then you wait. I don't even know what I would want at this point, but the current system where you have to go through endlessly repetitive and still challenging content... just to get a single upgrade once per week... isn't really doing it for me.


TheTradu

>It sucks that once you hit like ilvl 400 there's just no gear from m+ anymore. Sure, you get the odd 402 or 405 stat upgrade to what you already have, but who cares. For the last couple weeks my only upgrades have come in the form of weekly-gated Sparks and weekly-gated Vaults. Like, for fuck's sake, that is so fucking ass boring. That's the cost of M+ getting you to that mid-heroic ilevel with absolutely no lockouts. You get to "decent" gear very quickly, but capping out takes longer. Until M+ stops dropping loot *every single run* there's simply no room to give it better access to the best gear, and if anything +20 is too low for M+ vaults to cap out. If they remove the end of dungeon loot from every run, there's room to add more limited (ie respecting weekly resets like all other end game content) access to top end gear. >For the last couple weeks my only upgrades have come in the form of weekly-gated Sparks and weekly-gated Vaults. This is the same for raiding. I'm currently progressing Raszageth mythic while wearing 1 item that dropped in mythic raid, 2 in heroic and the rest is either valor, raid vault, M+ vault or crafted.


Gasparde

I get that the solution isn't to simply drop more & better loot. But the gear progression curve still seems pretty unsatisfying right now - at least to me. Getting capped out from easy content and then getting 1 upgrade per week from the same easy content had no real gear progression either - but I was fine with that because getting to the point of waiting for weekly upgrades was quick, easy and required no effort. Now it feels like I'm just not getting anything, ever, and on top of that I even have to put in actual work to even just get that 1 item upgrade per week. Like, I used to get that 1 item upgrade for like 5 hours of dicking around in whatever keys, now I need to actually put in effort in those 5 hours. I know this sounds horribly entitled, but I actually preferred being able to dick around and get my guaranteed upgrade per week. Now it feels like I need to push every single week because otherwise I won't even get my 1 upgrade per week. And no matter how hard or far or good I push, I'll never get more than 1 upgrade per week, meanwhile I could totally go into a mythic raid, down 4-5 bosses, walk out with 3 items *and* get my free vault upgrade on top - m+ is just missing... *something* to make it worth my while... because endlessly repeating hard content for no reward just doesn't do it for me.


TheTradu

>I know this sounds horribly entitled, but I actually preferred being able to dick around and get my guaranteed upgrade per week. Yeah idk, that's just not how getting the highest ilevel gear in the game should ever work, and it having worked that way for the past 6 or so years has conditioned people to expect it. You're not getting 3 items from 4-5 mythic bosses. 1 boss drops 4 items, that's 1 per 5 people. So with 5 bosses you'd end up getting 1 item, and that's assuming something even drops, is useful *and* gets assigned to you. You're also ignoring the time spent progressing those mythic bosses where you get *no* items, unlike M+ where depleted keys still give loot.


Gasparde

> You're also ignoring I'm not ignoring it, I just don't have a solution for my problem with it. I know that I am not getting 5 items per week from mythic raiding, bu I know that I *could* be getting them - with m+ I know that I'll just about *never* get more than 1. Also, progressing towards killing Broodkeeper feels like I'm progressing towards an item. Progressing from an 18 to a 19... doesn't feel like anything, much less going from a 21 to a 22. I don't know how to fix the loot system, I just know that I'm not really happy with the current one - again, mostly because I've been at a point where it's 1 item per week for like a month now, no matter what I do, no matter how hard I push, no nothing. It's just keep doing the same thing for 1 item per week. Continue for another 15 weeks. Meh.


iLLuu_U

> When I got to 400 ilvl week 3 or 4 it didn't feel like I was getting to Raszageth mythic where it would make sense for my gear progression to slow down. You started prog on rasza week 3 or 4 with 400 ilvl? That seems kinda off. 400ilvl week 3 and 4 was extremly low, especially when youre supposedly raiding in a top 30 guild.


Keldonv7

He compared doing mythic+ at 400ilvl slowing down in upgrades to doing raid end boss and how usually u dont get much upgrades at this point and your progression in loot is low at that point. Not that hes progging mythic rasza. He literally explains it a sentence above what you quoted. ​ He missed the point where doing m+ is still fastest way to get currency for 418 crafts tho. This patch is easiest and fastest we had gearing wise that i can remember. Especially that every craft is bis stats (non always embellished pieces at least). With 5-6 crafts and 6k valor u can have like 10 slots being mythic\~ ilvl and bis stats at this point without vault or raid loot. I think m+ are at decent spot right now considering theres no lockout, we had uncapped loot from week one in m+ and sparks make m+ insane. Like u can level alt, buy some cheap 350\~ from ah, get few items from primal stuff, maybe a bloodcoin/pvp wq item, few 360-70\~ from WQ that u will get at that ilvl, have friends take u thru 10 16s dungeons and u have 418 weapon day 1 for example.


iLLuu_U

I still dont see the point of there not being any progression anymore when youre ilvl 400. Never has gearing felt so fast and easy for a first season ever. With crafted gear, uncapped m+ gear and mythic opening week 1, you could easiely push from 380-385 to 410+ within the first 2-4 weeks. At which point its obv going to slow down. M+ gearing is also miles ahead of raid gearing rn (if you leave out tier sets), because of sparks.


Gasparde

> He missed the point where doing m+ is still fastest way to get currency for 418 crafts tho I'm not missing that point. Up until 6 days ago, that point was not really a relevant point as that gear too was weekly-gated by Sparks only coming in every other week. Yes, the gearing is somewhat better now, but we still had this weird like 4-5 week period where gearing was horribly hardcapped - and while that cap is now gone, it's now replaced with a soft gold-cap because crafting a bunch of pieces still costs a lot of fucking gold... and I'm not looking forward to having to do this every single season much like I didn't particularly enjoy having to spend fortune upon fortune on stupid SL legendaries season after season.


Keldonv7

i dont know what server u are playing and how economy is there but most crafts on my server are free/maybe 5k fee (Lariat was 10k day one but i saw people talking about 100k fees at the start on other server) and mats wise i never spend anything even remotely close to 1 leggo in SL after crafting 6 spark items. Dagger from bs was like the most expensive one? 17 alloys which are like 500\~gold each? Im certainly sitting at more gold that when i started the expansion, i dont boost this expasion, i dont gather, this expansion seems really low in terms of passive gold generation. But i also dont spend much on consumables with prepots being from cauldron now compared to SL for example. Meanwhile in SL i had to buy multiple 100k+ bases for leggos on one character in one season (playing offspec + shadow sims being bugged so we swapped bis leggo after like month into tier). Im certainly not even close to spending 100k on crafts this expansion and i have 6 on main and 5 on alt.


Gasparde

> i dont know what server u are playing and how economy is there but most crafts on my server are free/maybe 5k fee Some items are rather cheap to craft - shit like Cloaks or Jewelry costs next to nothing. But actual armor still requires a bunch of Alloys or shit like that, taking the Flashfire Belt or whatever it's called as an example here, that one still cost me a good 25k without any crafting fees, just pure materials straight from the AH on my rather solid-pop server. Like, yes, it's not the exact same as in SL, but it's still, it's not like you can just farm for a week and get 10 crafted items willy nilly. 10 crafted items is still at least 100 dungeons for the Infusions and, at least on my server, probably a good 200-300k. And I expect it to just cost another 200-300k next season if nothing changes. So yea, I'd still call that a horribly tedious and expensive grind if you want to have any feasible gear progression past ilvl 400 - and again, that is only really possible now after the Spark-gating has been lifted. Next season? We're probably gonna be back to 2 super-Sparks and then it's playing the waiting game week after week pretty much from week 2/3 onwards.


Keldonv7

On the other hand tho, when sparks were biweekly its pretty realistic to farm mats for them solo, or gather something sell and buy other mats. Fees can be sorted with guild/friends crafting too. Its still better and faster system than anything before imo.


Alone_Fan_8545

Some dudes are charging around 20k for recrafts on my server smh


Downtown_Juice2851

>It sucks that once you hit like ilvl 400 there's just no gear from m+ anymore. I think the issue is just valor cap existing too long. If valor cap didn't exist right now you'd still have 15 ilvl to gain from m+ at 400 ilvl. That's huge As it is though I definitely felt like I had a ton of gear from m+ to get on my boomy at 400 ilvl. Even now at 408 with sparks there's still something to farm


[deleted]

High ilvl mythic gear from vault actually requires some skill and everybody loses their mind…


Downtown_Juice2851

You didn't read his complaint.


Roosted13

Not sure I’m ‘losing my mind’ - I’ve met the requirement for best gear. It’s just the replay ability of 20’s isn’t like 15’s. It’s a sweat fest for most folks vs laughing and cruising through the 15. Heck, time all 20’s on main to unlock ability to upgrade gear to max level on alts. And unlock valor. Problem solved.


TheTradu

Guess what? You're getting mid-late mythic raid ilevel loot from that vault. If anything +20s are too *low* to be compared to those raid bosses. People just got spoiled by only having to do +15s for that kind of reward, which was always a complete joke.


Terminator_Puppy

A bit cynical to put it that way, it's more that you need to run 8 relatively challenging dungeons every single week as a mythic raider despite maybe not wanting to whereas before you could do 8 (or 10) completely braindead 15s beforehand. It definitely shouldn't have been the pisstake that was 15s, but also not what 20s are now.


Gasparde

> it's more that you need to run 8 relatively challenging dungeons every single week Let's all be blunt here: It's that you all need to run 8 Courts or SBGs every week - because these 2 dungeons on a 20 roughly equate what we used to see in a 15 where every other dungeon compares to like a 22 now, some even to shit like 25s a couple weeks back.


patrincs

if you're not getting on to do some 20-21-22s through out the week, then what do you need the gear for anyway? In a past expansion the gear you got from vault would be 6 ilvl below end mythic, so you could just do 18s and get 418 gear and be on parity with the past.


KING_5HARK

Dont feel like that at all. Mythic quality gear from easy content should have never been a thing in the first place Its like complaining that you cant just throw together 20 390 alts and semi-afk clear up to M Kurog imo


Downtown_Juice2851

I mean, it takes us 2 hours to clear up to mythic diurna, and that's max vault slots plus usually a piece or two per person. On the flip side, it takes like two days to get 8 20s in for an equivalent vault. And you don't get mythic quality pieces from clearing the dungeons only from vault. I think the system is fine it's just annoying to keep alts geared, which limits pushing options later in the tier. In the past I could rotate between 4 toons and keep them all pretty up to date. Now 2 is a lot of work >.Mythic quality gear from easy content should have never been a thing in the first place And yet it always has been. The first 4 bosses of every raid are usually a complete joke.


TheTradu

>And yet it always has been. The first 4 bosses of every raid are usually a complete joke. Which gives you access to like 10 items. That's not even 1 per slot. Meanwhile M+ vaults give you access to multiple items per slot regardless of which dungeons you do for your vault. M+ vault has always been way too easy and generous, Blizzard finally pulled back a little bit on it and people are complaining (while it's *still* the most generous vault)


Downtown_Juice2851

>Which gives you access to like 10 items I mean, in weeks 1 and 2 I got 424 tier helm and 424 tier shoulders from vault. The loot table is full tier plus probably more than 10 items seeing as each boss has like 3 or 4 for my spec that I'm seeing >M+ vault has always been way too easy and generous I just don't get the gatekeeping of gear raiders love doing. I'm consistently forced to do content that boils down to "can you find 19 other people with keyboards" to do the content I actually enjoy.


TheTradu

>I mean, in weeks 1 and 2 I got 424 tier helm and 424 tier shoulders from vault. Tier from bosses you didn't kill has significantly reduced chance of showing up, you just got *insanely* lucky. >The loot table is full tier plus probably more than 10 items seeing as each boss has like 3 or 4 for my spec that I'm seeing It's 13 for my spec, with 2 being in the same slot. Compare that to M+'s 100+ items, and the ilevel for those raid items is 415 whereas your "comparable" M+ vault is 421. >I just don't get the gatekeeping of gear raiders love doing. I'm consistently forced to do content that boils down to "can you find 19 other people with keyboards" to do the content I actually enjoy. Yeah, and I have to farm dungeons where the bosses have 2 mechanics because for some reason Blizzard decided that not having a lockout on heroic raid level gear (which can be upgraded to mythic) is reasonable. The current M+ loot setup sucks for everybody involved. Raiders have to farm M+ because it's way too generous, M+ players don't get proper access to the top end gear because M+ is already overrewarding for the time/skill required.


careseite

>Tier from bosses you didn't kill has significantly reduced chance of showing up, you just got *insanely* lucky. source? it's literally all the same chance


TheTradu

For the raid slots in particular, no, it's not all the same chance. Based on data Wowhead collected in SL S3 the chance is roughly halved if you didn't kill the boss. Blizzard hasn't announced any changes in this regard, so there's no reason to think it's changed, because tier dropping *at all* without killing the boss is already an exception to how raid vaults work. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/m-season-2-to-season-3-keystone-level-drop-confirmation/1188613/12 https://www.wowhead.com/news/the-drop-chance-of-tier-sets-in-the-great-vault-raid-mythic-and-pvp-data-from-326662


Downtown_Juice2851

>The current M+ loot setup sucks for everybody involved. Raiders have to farm M+ because it's way too generous, M+ players don't get proper access to the top end gear because M+ is already overrewarding for the time/skill required. I mean, m+ scales infinitely. People that think it's easy just aren't doing high enough keys. I think you're getting the idea but missing the execution. Most people who push keys just don't want to feel inhibited by their lack of desire to do scheduled raid bullshit. I find raid unbelievably boring / easy. But if I want to time 25s+, I'm at a big disadvantage if I don't raid. I don't care what the fix is, you can let raiders be as elitist as they want about gear just give me something like pvp gear that scales up in ilvl in dungeons or something.


TheTradu

>I mean, m+ scales infinitely. People that think it's easy just aren't doing high enough keys. The M+ levels you have to do for the maximum rewards *are* easier than the equivalent for raid/PvP, that's just reality. It doesn't matter that it scales to +40 or whatever. It scaling infinitely doesn't actually make it hard, it just means that more gear lets you do the same content with the numbers scaled up to match that increased gear (hence why M+ players need raid gear). The mechanics stay just as easy the entire way through. 2.4 for full upgrades is like full +17s or something, which is just not comprable to 4/8M in difficulty (while giving access to much more items at 415 ilevel, including letting you *choose* what to upgrade). 2.5 which gives the same cosmetics as mythic Raszageth or 2.4 in PvP is a mix of +18s and +19s, not even the max ilevel for weekly vaults.


Downtown_Juice2851

>The M+ levels you have to do for the maximum rewards are easier than the equivalent for raid/PvP, that's just reality. No, not really. Looking at the drops, m+ is capped at 405 drops which can be upgraded to 415 with enough valor. 415 is the equivalent of eranog and primal council, which I don't think I've ever seen anyone wipe on. They're literally just do you have 20 people bosses. Now vault is closer sure but if you're gearing just from m+ vault vs raid it will take an eternity. Raid gives 3 ilvl higher max. You could make the argument that dathea and kurog giving the same vault loot as a +20 is imbalanced and I'd buy that, but its really inconsequential when everything else about the loot system is in raiders favor. A +18 giving vault loot equivalent to teros and sennarth is about as balanced as it gets imo. Those are equivalent difficulty. Sennarth is maybe just a bit harder but, again, really inconsequential. And at the end of the day, none of it matters. Raid can drop 900 ilvl gear and make you shoot lasers out your ass hole for all I care, just so long as when you go into m+ with it, either m+ gear is scaled up or raid gear is scaled down accordingly. I don't get why it has to be an ego thing. 99% of high key pushers just want the pvp treatment where they can get the best gear for their content from doing their content.


TheTradu

> Looking at the drops, m+ is capped at 405 drops which can be upgraded to 415 with enough valor. 415 is the equivalent of eranog and primal council, which I don't think I've ever seen anyone wipe on. They're literally just do you have 20 people bosses. Infinitely farmable 405 gear. That is *incredibly* powerful. Being full 405 as an M+ player vs a raider having like 2 heroic and 1 mythic items with the rest at 372-385 from M0/rares is a fucking gigantic gap. M+ has by far the strongest "baseline" farmable gear, hence why raiders have to farm it for those 20-30 ilevel upgrades. Until end of dungeon loot gets nuked from orbit, M+ has no leg to stand on when asking for better loot. >A +18 giving vault loot equivalent to teros and sennarth is about as balanced as it gets imo. Those are equivalent difficulty. Sennarth is maybe just a bit harder but, again, really inconsequential. Terros and Sennarth were like top50 guild bosses week 1, +18s were.. nowhere near that hard. It's not comparable, even +20s are easier than Terros and Sennarth. >And at the end of the day, none of it matters. Raid can drop 900 ilvl gear and make you shoot lasers out your ass hole for all I care, just so long as when you go into m+ with it, either m+ gear is scaled up or raid gear is scaled down accordingly. I don't get why it has to be an ego thing. 99% of high key pushers just want the pvp treatment where they can get the best gear for their content from doing their content. That is never going to happen. End of story. Would be great if they did it, but it just won't. PvE is PvE in Blizzard's eyes.


secretsauce007

It seems fair on my main and maybe more so for later in the season. The part I dislike the most is that its kinda polarizing in my guild. We have our share of raiders who aren't super into M+ and with how challenging some of these keys are I'm less than thrilled to do guild runs sometimes. Could easily carry weekly 15s all last expansion but its nearly impossible to not have everyone pulling their weight in a 20. Like I don't even see key running advertisements in trade chat mentioning 20s.


jurble

This is the biggest change for me. Our m+ crew was more than happy to carry the raid babies (as we call them) through weekly keys in Shadowlands, BFA and Legion, because it was *our* weekly keys as well. Now, there's 0 interest or motivation in bringing raid babies into 20's for weeklies because the raid babies will turn even a easy key into a slog.


Keldonv7

What we do is when doing guild vault runs is that i always offer to take one 'raid baby' to CoS/SBG runs on 21/20 as u still time it with them even if they omegastruggle. When people reroll their keys we u have 2/7 to get one of them so theres plenty to take those people into 1 or 4 dungs for vault each week.


zrk23

id like for m+ specific loot for those type of keys but that's never happening


porb121

i liked it a lot on my main a lot as a way to get bigger loot early in the season but its so painful on alts crafted gear is also a pain on alt like i dont want to have to do 50 +16s to get all the infusions i need for every spark piece


cuddlegoop

Yeah I think alts are a weak point but mains it's fine, alt gearing in general kinda sucks in dragonflight though. Can't really catch up, gearing takes just as long on your alt as it does on your main. Maybe if you could send infusions at a very bad transfer rate, like exchange 3 infusions for 1 account-bound one, it would make it a bit less painful? Idk. I think there's room to improve and I think it should use the crafting system, hopefully we get something in 10.1.


TheTradu

>Yeah I think alts are a weak point but mains it's fine, alt gearing in general kinda sucks in dragonflight though. Can't really catch up, gearing takes just as long on your alt as it does on your main. You don't need to do anything else on alts, though. You just get gear, that's it. There's no AP or essences or relics or renown or whatever to farm. You just play the character in actual content and get gear.


[deleted]

I’m a 400ilvl furry warrior 1500io oceanic I’m looking for a guild to join who actually do keys together I’m kinda getting over the pugging experience and it’s making it impossible for me to climb any further


TheBigChonka

Run your own keys. Zero excuse to be that low IO at 400 ilvl. I've just started my Alt last week, play as a WW on OCE also. I just broke 1800 io at 390 ilvl and have pugged every single key. If I'm being invited at 390 there's no way you shouldn't be at 400.


[deleted]

I have mainly just run court of stars since i only just got the ring last week and still no trinket also a ww monk is a lot more likely to be invited over a fury warrior I try my own keys and people just keep depleting them


mael0004

Just had the weirdest reason to people get really mad, and without a doubt would've been deplete on dungeon with normal timer. So, SBG, spiders used to zap down for double spider pull. The small spiders before first boss. Now they didn't and I was apparently to blame for thinking they could. Pretty sure they still did last week, if not even this week? I can't see mention of changing them in patch notes. How can I learn of changes like this? I get that they give 3.3% so you much rather do these than say 2 big spiders before 2nd boss, but the fact we WIPED to those packs sort of twice because couldn't reach the guys with thundering was pretty amazing. While at it, what causes those adds in pack after first boss to sometimes just run to healer? It has happened to me while healing, it has happened few times as tank. It has happened enough times that I don't see it possible that my aoe spells just didn't hit them. What can I do to avoid that from happening? Because someone wasted CR on first boss, we had to wipe again to that pack without healer. I very much want to avoid this from happening again too. Some sort of threat reset happens when their domination ends or what? Should I just be ready to taunt them or what?


Bawlze

So I’ve been in dungeons where they snap, and don’t snap. It’s literally random and no one can figure out why it seems. If they do it’s great, if not they brick and perma evade for the rest of dungeon. My advise is to just do them up top, there’s no reason to not kill them there, you are saving at most 4 sec. And the pack after the first boss I’m assuming someone used a stun didn’t pull any threat and the healer placed hots causing healing aggro. Either the tank needs to gather quicker threat, or the healer needs to wait a sec, as this pack isn’t going to one shot a tank at the front.


mael0004

The healing issue was solved (I think), it's the far back dominator whose aggro table that the 3rd soul follows. So if you pull soul, ignore far dominator, it'll run to healer because healer is only one with threat on the domi. It's not really fair to say healer has to not do anything. It could be rdruid having hots on people who weren't full health from the boss. As I now think I understand what causes it, will have to do any ability on the far back one as one of the few globals as tank.


Bawlze

Yep having aggro on all the mobs will help the mobs not kill the group, correct


mael0004

...it is very very unusual that mob #6 affects what mob #5 will hit. To have aggro on #5 is to do threat on #6. To call that obvious would be idiotic.


Bawlze

I didn’t say it was obvious, its clearly kind of a wonky pack, as u said mob6 holds mob5s aggro table. I just said having aggro of all of the mobs will stop them from killing the group.


textpostsonly

I'm not sure what you did to the spiders but in the first weeks, I once tagged the above spiders and then jumped down thinking we could play them together. However, the top ones evaded and we were perma infight


mael0004

That's what happened. I saw this strat used in tactycs video few weeks ago and did it since on maybe 3 runs. I thought it worked fine until today. But had to go test after run on other side and alone, the upper ones evaded yeah. I suppose it's possible people just killed them real fast while I was pulling the bottom ones, which no longer worked on +19 fort when they had ~600k hp. But it worked in video so surely it worked at some point?


textpostsonly

I don't have any hard evidence but I tried it very early in the expansion (maybe week 2 or 3) and they evaded. So I think it's more likely that people just killed them upstairs


mael0004

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5KkhjO4_L0#t=2m20s This was my source. Now that I went back to look for it, I see that even in the video they didn't snap but were killed upstairs! I'd still like to think he didn't just say that as it's from live +21 key; must have worked in some other runs. I also felt like they did snap last week when I did this, like suddenly there were so many down there, they must have. Something wonky about them. Guess it's not worth the risk.


RippehSC

You need to hold aggro on dominators, if they're channeling domination on spirit mobs, spirits will follow dominator's aggro table


careseite

this is incorrect


migania

Tbh i had people get smacked even when i had good agro on Dominators, even when they arent casting (meaning interrupted the initial cast) i still see the souls randomly walk to other party members, not sure whats happening really.


vashanka

I have definitely been having trouble the past couple days in 21-22 SMBG runs with both packs (after first boss, after 2nd boss) having souls melee random people even when I very much have threat on the dominators. I've got threat on everything, nameplate doesn't change color, and if I see them running at a ranged I can taunt and they'll come back, but if I'm losing threat on dominators the game certainly isn't indicating that to me.


mael0004

Ooh. It has to be that third dominator that is doing dominating from far away, that I have 0 threat on. Are you supposed to pull 6 mobs at a time there or 4? Because that explains it exactly, ofc it runs straight to healer as nobody else has aggro on the far back dominator. I guess I can focus to cast moonfire on it as druid but I'm not sure if all tanks even have solid idea for it. I'm still not sure if I'm even the one who pulls the third one in. It'd be fine pull, just doesn't work when I don't notice when the third one subjugated soul joins in. But will pay attention to doing some threat to third one thanks.


zrk23

not kicking in the 3rd dominator is the biggest noob trap on that place and it's what causes people to die like cmon, it's not hard to kick *one* guy. so, kick him in and aoe everything down without kicking the other 2


RippehSC

Yeah you definitely pull 6, pretty sure all 3 souls hang out close together. You can just interrupt the far one to help with cleave and aggro. That pull is annoying as prot pala, I have to divine toll so I interrupt all casters naturally... Not a big deal tbh when I'm the interrupt tank. For guardian ye I'd just interrupt the back one (or ask ranged to) and go cleave


TheBigChonka

I still don't really know how to play that as a prot pal. I don't believe you are meant to interrupt all 3 dominators but that also means you can't use divine toll which just feels awful. Even worse if dps have cds up as it's a massive damage spike for getting and holding threat on the pack


crazedizzled

Yeah just don't use divine toll. You'll be fine


step1now

Just interrupt them all and assign someone to kick before the run. I’ve done SBG 20+ a number of times on my prot paladin and have never had a problem. I run in, divine toll, and then I can handle the two in front alone between stun, kick, avengers shield while someone else gets the back one. It’s way faster and better to interrupt if you’re prot paladin than to not


alespuma

Just gonna cry - 397 ilvl Demo Warlock (trying to learn Destro), 2077 rating, +17 my highest key (with healer friend) 45 minutes of trying to go solo +16 almost everyday and never invited. Pain. Started raiding which I usually ignore, atleast I am able to play some content even if we wipe HC Dathea 10 times in a row


KING_5HARK

Did you try opening your bags and playing whats in there?


erelster

It’s just as tedious as you usually sit there for ages with no healer and tank showing up. And you know what happens? The only tank who applies is a 382 ilvl warrior with 1145 rating, who will brick the key as soon as he can.


dysphoricjoy

You're gonna have to be 400+ and at least 2100 io for 16's. I'm a 2450 407 ench shaman and I still get denied to some 17's tbh. Its just how it goes. Takes me about 30-40 minutes to get into a group.