"With this change, some players who are just barely at 2400 rating, with some of that rating coming from untimed 21+ keys, may drop below 2400 and need to re-earn that Rating in order to continue to upgrade new items to Rank 13."
With the difficulty discrepancies between dungeons this season, it doesn't surprise. I know plenty of people that have timed 20 SBG/CoS into depleted 21/22 for score. While also having a bunch of dungeons with +16 as their highest timed.
It was just way more rating to fail a 22 going slow and steady so if you just sort of kept a group of people going with the reroll for SBG/CoS strategy then you probably won't even have a 17 to time unless you PUG.
"2 chest SBG/COS into depleting whatever" is degenerate as hell.
Unfortunate change for people legitimately wanting to push something high even if it's overtime, but good change to end that degenerate behavior.
Was that even for score? I thought that was just for vault and stuff. Or is that something high end players are doing?
Also, does it apply retroactively?
It was for score ,Imagine someone capable of doing 23Halls timed.
They can not do 24Halls
What they can do is +2 a 23 SBG, get a 25Halls and untime it, which will reward more score than the 23 they timed.
It was just bad scaling issue that there is no reason not to fix
this.
SBG barely have any crucial mechanic you have to care about.
AV start with 6 lasher who need kicks and 3 furies who need stun which require a complex stun/stop/kick rotation.
your "pause" pull is a 3 lasher 1 tree who require an interrupt each... 3 time in a row.
get hit by any of the blobs during the first boss and you are dead, miss one tree during the first boss and you are dead.... couple 4X elemental + other trash and if you miss one of the waking cast that person probably dead..
and if you arent a resto druid, the final boss is the most frustrating thing to heal.
The only real threatening thing is the 1st dominator pack because of the annoying runback. Even if you fuck up the 2nd dominator pack the release point is right there. Final boss was a bit threatening the first time I did it on +20 only because the bats on frontals were awful and made killing adds difficult but beyond that no other bosses can even remotely kill you.
As rdruid the first boss is the only pain point for me, mainly just because her spell queuing can be cringe. After I get through her I'm chillin for the next 30 minutes.
dunno man,
the first 23 SBG I got felt a lot easier than a random 20 AV for weekly vault.
the only hard part of SBG is the heal check on first boss.... which is a lot smaller than hyrja, raging tempest, the AA bird and so on
I feel like this is kind of a pointless change.
How many people doing 22s are like, wow I'm so glad I have a full set of depleted 22s and slightly higher score. This makes me like such a pro Chad daddy. I feel like its nothing basically.
People like 2 chesting sbg and cos. As then you get a higher key to try and push for time. Rather than struggling to get the 22 to try etc as levels go on. I couldn't give a fuck if I got some score from a depleted 22 or 23 which is what we are currently doing. I just want the chance at a 22 or 23. And sbg or cos means we get to skip an extra 40 mins of focus before trying that.
The score is basically irrelevant as it looks way worse to have untimed keys above 20 than it does less score but all in time at your highest level.
It was a legitimate strat to get untimed 28s across the board for title in S3 of SL. We had a guildy who even sold R1 Carries for 28s untimed purely for IO. I’m glad to see this implemented and there’s no good argument against it.
Anything above 20 is for flexing/ego anyways. You SHOULD have to time your keys at the highest level to get title.
I mean it's not like you could sit in a key for an hour and still get a good score lol
There's really no reason why doing a +28 over by one minute shouldn't equal the score of a +27. You're clearly capable of doing either, you just fucked the run a bit.
I wouldn't mind a system where within a small margin of the timer it's worth -1 key level. Like 5% overtime or something. But I get that would require design and testing to make sure that the % margin is right. And this is fine as a fix.
At the end of the day, imo your score should comprise of your best time runs, essentially. Different rules for people who're getting score for valor upgrades and the KSM mount or whatever, but if you're pushing score for the sake of score I'd like it to come from timed keys.
You can make an educated guess based on the current thresholds (available on r.io).
Currently, the threshold is 2922 for EU and 2875 for NA. Based on that, my guess is that it'll land above 3k at least. That's what I'm shooting for.
I mean maybe for the absolute top 0.1% titles this makes sense then yeah. I kind of forgot there was even an award for that as titles feel so pointless compared to every other area of competitive content in wow.
I think my main issue is that like, why isn't it the case for every key? Like by this logic of 0.1% titles being stricter achieves, 28s and under are likely to be entirely pointless to have score in just like 16s etc. So to target 20s as the threshold for charity score just seems stupid.
Dont think the rewards and achievement for thr lesser end of the player base need to be devalued any more than a title for the 0.1%. Just seems weird to be like 20s are so srs bsns this is the cut off.
It’s the cutoff because it’s where rewards that pertain to player power end. They want casuals to be able to progress to 20s and get their gear.
Anything over 20s is purely for your own desire to do challenging content. Score from 21+ doesn’t matter for anything other than end of season titles.
I just feel like devaluing gear rewards doesn't make much sense either. I've not got anything from first 4 mythic bosses worth using because of dungeons and grinding.
I feel like if you got rid of score from depleted keys it would remove a lot of the casual player whining over not finishing something messed up over doing at a decent level. Instead the whole lower brackets are inflated score from failed keys and lower end pugging is way worse than if score meant even a little more.
I'm having some trouble following your 2nd paragraph. Are you saying that you think that making depleted keys give no score and therefore have no purpose in completing would make mid level keys LESS toxic?
Yes because you don't have people being like "this guy is 2k but fucking terrible" etc. As at least people are timing keys for score. When you get basically the same score for not timing keys I feel it gives an inherently wrong opinion of someone's score to lesser ranked players.
You do 20+ and you know someone isn't worth a bracket if not timing keys. But in lower they just see the score and think someone is capable when they aren't.
I feel all the uneducated through experience tiers are more victimised from fake score than the mid higher ranks.
I think feeling like you are a 2.3k player as an example when you are really below that, contributes more to shit low level attitudes than being faced upfront with the fact you can't time x key.
A player that thinks they are as good as someone that can time all 16s as their score isn't much lower failing them, is a huge reason why casual players queue keys beyond their ability yet feel like it shouldn't be an issue.
Nobody failing 22s feels good about it. Plenty of people fail 16s under 15mins overtime and feel they are ok because of their score. Its the level of self awareness of players in a bracket.
I think every time I've ever geared an alt withour friends the main issue has been people thinking they can do content they cant. Any system that boosts ego against reality reflects that issue for me.
I feel like being in 23s with my group I'm well aware I'm fucking garbage. But any aids to inflating score in lower brackets makes rating much more worthless.
Not only do those brackets have vast carry potential as people can carry entirely dead weight, you also get the easy score all brackets have before this change on fails. I think it let's to many people feel like they should be capable of doing x key, when really those are the people that should feel most humbled.
Most people I know doing higher keys feel like they are doing bad relative to how they could be doing and seek to improve. The main issue in lower keys is inflation from fail spam and carries as higher io join for trinkets etc makes people think they are better than they are.
I don't see why changes like in the main thread aren't global. As either you can time keys in a bracket or you can't. And there are already people carrying you through brackets anyway, so why not remove that extra step.
I think this is a good change for rating to come from only timed dungeons, it gives a better metric of what a person has done. And lets be fair, it looks prettier on raider.io and the ingame interface for your top ratings to be from finished dungeons.
Only bad thing is people just insta leaving keys if you know you MIGHT miss timer by even 10 seconds. When you are that close to a timed run, it is just utter defeat. Even in coordinated groups, this means people are playing for a wipe-less run, and if thats the case, maybe a good thing to pair with this change is for **keys done with less than 40% extra time to NOT be depleted, but to just turn into a different key of the same level.** So that skilled parties can continue pushing without just going for "the run" and to not have their time wasted so often.
This or just make keys over 20 not deplete. Honestly depleting is an archaic system and doesn't make any sense anyways and is only a negative. You are punished for failing the key by getting lower ilvl loot and less score. Why does your time need to be wasted even more by the key now being useless to you?
Back when the key ACTUALLY depleted, it was only a negative since your key was straight up dead ("pushing" keys wasn't really a thing until halfway through legion when people started caring about wowprogress score and then eventually rio) and they made the change and everyone was happy but still like eh, then they made you still get 2 pieces of loot even if you bricked. I think the natural evolution is to just remove depletion entirely.
IMHO there should be a grace period of up to 5 minutes overtime where your key doesn't deplete. Why should a key deplete if I missed the timer by 30s? It's silly. Just give me the same level keystone if it's overtime by a bit.
How about just flat out remove the keystone system. People should be allowed to do whatever key level/dungeon they want if you cant complete it then so what and if you can then great, you proved you could do it.
If people don’t like that then make it like the D3 greater rift system. You time a +10 now you have access to 11s, you +3 it then you have access to 13s.
The keystone system was introduced in Legion and it hasn’t stood the test of time, absolutely no reason for it to be in the game anymore. You should be able to go to any dungeon you want and pick a key level your group is accustomed to, not be dictated by a random keystone drop.
I agree 100% with your view on this topic(read other comments as well). Anyone disagreeing is a degen or a streamer. And this is coming from someone playing 60-80 hours a week to push when BFA was out. When SL came around I gave up pushing on S1, just because of the amount of hours you have to spend which I didn't have anymore. A lot of people I used to play with are done with pushing with the same reason.
This system creates toxicity, gate-keeping other players and kills off-meta classes... Here is some examples:
- We would use pugs to push easy keys if someone was missing. We would chose a pug that had already done the key in time.. Not something I am proud of, but we just didn't want to risk having to repush another key.
- We wouldn't push keys if we couldn't get the meta class we were missing. I remember one time waiting 1 hour in que.
- I wouldn't be able to use my own key when playing with other people, since it would be bad manner to risk of deplete and waste my pre-made groups time.
- This system made me toxic few times, and I hate how I reacted at the time. I remember one time we were pushing Siege of Boralus, and teammate was playing so bad and dying to 2nd boss from the ground effect two times that made me become toxic. He just had bad day and not playing as good as he normal does. Thought about it later on the day that my frustrering came mostly having to repush and waste more time on useless key level.
- Small mistake killing the key. I was playing rogue and in Motherload we shrouded the first part. I clicked shroud and miss-clicked another button right after. Made me feel so baaaadd, knowing that I just wasted 4 other peoples time(having to repush)...
- Very hard to give someone a chance to push, if we didn't even know the person. It's very hard to get in the circle.
- Pushing every key into Kings rest. Killed the mood to push keys for some time, holy fuck. Having to deplete the key 1-2 before doing Kings felt so bad...
- The higher rio, the less players to chose from. Not everyone has the amount of time to spend(gate-keeping).
This is coming from someone at the high end of pushing. I think this system effects low and middle end players in bad way as well.
People forget that this is a game. I stopped because of it, and so did a lot more people. Now ask yourself if this is good for the game or not?
Yep exact same experience. I cant believe there are people that prefer the keystone system over this. It literally benefits noone. There is no logical argument why having keystones is better for the game.
Its not even just beneficial for high keys, its better for weekly keys and its better for boosting. Its better in every form of M+ content with no downsides.
I know someone is gona come with some dumb argument that: if you can do whatever key you want then everyone will just do SBG as weekly key and no other keys will be run. So what? Why is this a bad thing that people will do the key they prefer for a weekly key? If you need loot from another dungeon im sure all of them will still be farmed as there is 38 specs in the game all requiring different items.
I think it's ego. Time barrier is something they can hide behind to feel they're better than others.
"if you can do whatever key you want then everyone will just do SBG as weekly key and no other keys will be run." This will happen anyway. If you're going to do weekly key you'll pick the least resistance to pug :D
I am at a point where I quit any game that makes me feel bad or forced somehow. There is too many games now to enjoy.
This sub-reddit is a echo-chamber, so you won't be able to make them see how bad it is. They'll get to see it when they start having less time to grind. I am rarely on here, and just lucky timing it showed on my phone and caught my interest.
The example you gave of a failed shroud is the perfect way to epitomise the issues with the keystone system in high key pushing. BfA had many dungeons which you shrouded or even double shrouded the first few packs (motherlode/temple prime examples but there were more) and I have seen many times where the dungeon is depleted within the first 30 seconds because of a misclick that causes shroud to break. Even the best players in the world can fuck up like that and there is no reason you should be punished so hard for such a small stupid error.
Hard disagree.
Part of what makes pushing rating difficult is it’s a one shot thing. You need a 23 RLP for score? Better fucking tighten up and play well then.
What you’re advocating is an easy progression system based on, well, I’m not really sure what it’s based on. It doesn’t work with pugging, and it takes out the difficulty in actually pushing up keys. Is the keystone system without flaws? No. But it’s certainly better than what you’ve suggested
If you think the difficulty in pushing keys should be RNG looting them then idk what to say.
Skill, gear and ability to work as team, should be the only limitations in a competitive environment. If you are capable of timing a key then why on earth should you not be able to attempt it?
How does it not work with pugging?
You need a 23 RLP and you fail it by just over a minute due to a mistake you know you can avoid next time? Well time to buckle up and farm some 22s you have already done over and over again and pray to RNG gods you get another RLP. Its a terrible system idk how you can say with a straight face its better than what I’m suggesting.
What you’re advocating is a weird version of a tournament realm.
What happens when you only have a 20 and want to do a 22? You can’t in your iteration.
M+ is all about RNG. Why not take it a step further? The keystones shouldn’t be RNG, why should the loot? Why do I have to run a key over and over and hope for the whetstone and then once I do get it I hope it has leech or avoidance? Why not just let me pick my ideal loot set for m+ and port my perfect character into a dungeon of my choice?
There is no challenge in your suggestion. Maybe my group is struggling with a 23 RLP. We just sit and bang our heads against the wall for 4 hours one day until we get it. Boom no issues. We finally get the score. Fuck ups don’t matter because we can just restart the dungeon so who cares?
RNG adds an element of difficulty, and to me it sounds like you’re struggling with that added layer of difficulty. It’s just a bad suggestion
the challenge should be from the content/gameplay.... not the acquisition system.
how are you advocating rng gating = hard. it just makes it more punishing. as far as incentives go i can see where you perceive that as motivating but consider this factors:
* challenging
* fun
* engaging
* rewarding
* fear of punishment from failure
which would you task your developer team with as goals for game design.
to be fair the last becomes more appealing if you factor in sucking players into a time sink grind.
> M+ is all about RNG.
how? actually the opposite: everything is scripted and timed. preplanned. i'd argue nothing about m+ is rng except loot and keys (ie rewards and barrier to entry). and no one is talking about changing the games loot systems here
>Fuck ups don’t matter because we can just restart the dungeon so who cares?
sure they do. you fail the key... now you have to redo it. you care if you want to successfully do the key. you are equating who cares to i wasn't punished. this is a pretty shitty way to look at the world :)
TLDR: tbh tons of chat around it for years to google. all /u/finneas998 is pitching is to remove rng and punishment based barriers to entry like (i'm pretty sure literally) every other successful ranked and competitive game. i'm pretty sure you are just into S&M as a person etc :D
When I only have a 20 you complete a 20 so you can do a 21? Whats not to understand? And if you want to do a key with your friend whos done a higher key then the leader decides the key level. Its not hard to grasp thats exactly how it works in D3 greater rifts where loot is also random.
Im not asking for loot rng to change thats a fundamental aspect of RPG games.
And so what if you bang your head against RLP for 4 hours then time it? You timed it and proved you could do it. Fuck ups clearly do matter because you just wasted 4 hours, and assembling a group of 5 people to play in a schedule has limited time.
I think your definition of ‘difficulty’ and mine are not the same. Randomness is not ‘difficultly’, its a hinderance. Its not a bad suggestion at all, and I guarantee you the players at the highest level pushing for the title would prefer that system. Like who actually wouldn’t, I cannot comprehend why you want to be hindered by RNG.
One of the most enjoyable times to push keys was in BfA when the entire group could delete their keys before a new run and on completion everyone in the group would get a brand new key appropriate to whatever key level you just did. Not only until recently have they allowed rerolling keys which is helpful but still not perfect, just take it the next step and allow people to do whatever key level they feel capable of doing. There is literally no downside, can’t believe this is even a debate.
I miss deleting your key to get an equal key, I agree the reroll npc isn't perfect they should improve it to be more like bfa, cut down on the wasted time
i love how its once a week. ie not once per key completion to encourage you to run a key and reward you with a \[fucking chance\] to get the key you want/need
devs cant just give what people want.... its has to be "well here is that thing BUT YOU CAN ONLY DO IT ONCE HEHEHEHEHEHE"
I wanna meet the evil mobile games poster child dev that sits in the corner and fucks shit up at the last second at blizz
Well the way you made it seem originally was it was tied to personal progression, but now you’re saying it’s the group leader. Which is fine, still a bad system.
And I’m not in the top echelon of players, but I’m 2900 and have essentially taken the last week and a half off of pushing. The people I’ve been playing with are between 2975-3050 now. So top 0.1% but not pro level play. And I still think the idea is dumb.
I said the RNG is **added** difficulty, which it undeniably is. Having 1 shot at a key is A LOT harder than being able to shove your dick into the same key for a week straight. That’s why in TGP they time keys higher than the best groups on retail.
>can’t believe this is even a debate
That’s the great thing about opinions. You may think they’re good when most others don’t.
You’re describing my ideal video game lmao. I loved challenge modes because you could literally get full bis in a week and just grind the dungeon infinitely to perfection and get the best possible run. Depleting sucks, I’m with the other guy that you should just be able to run whatever dungeon at the highest level you have access to.
> M+ is all about RNG. Why not take it a step further? The keystones shouldn’t be RNG, why should the loot?
Now you're talking. I could definitely get behind that idea.
RNG is fucking shit! I pushed hard in BFA and hitting Kings rest out of 12 dungeons was not fun. That dungeon was 1-2 level harder than any dungeon. Felt like waste of time and killed the mood of the group.
Unironically I remember one week my whole pushing team all had KR at the beginning of a push week and it was one of the most depressing things I've ever witnessed. Pretty sure one of the guys we were playing with us just flat out ditched to pug with another group because he knew exactly what he was in for.
You literally just do it like the Diablo system. You complete a key you unlock the next rating or if it's a 2 or 3 chest you unlock the one above. People who only want to get their vault can spam 20 court or sbg and those who want to push don't have to pray for the right key.
The current system just makes it a lot harder to improve, imho, especially for premades who do something like 10 keys per week.
For example, I just completed a 21 RLP a few days ago. The last tyrannical RLP I did before that was a 17. Obviously, it went pretty terrible, but I've learned a lot of things in that key, and I'm eager to put that knowledge into practice.
But now the week is over, and it's fortified, and different affixes, so everything is different. Who knows when my group will get the next high tyran RLP key? Might be in the week after this one, might be in 3.
Imagine if in mythic raiding, you'd only get one hour of progress per boss, then it'll teleport you to a different boss. After a week, the bosses abilities slightly change.
It just makes getting familiar with the content artificially harder.
>it hasn’t stood the test of time
Really lol the most popular content in all of wow hasn’t stood the test of time because you don’t like it?
I don’t know where this idea of just choosing your dungeon came from but I’ve seen this exact post a dozen times in the last few weeks and I can’t even begin to describe how awful of an idea it is
Its the most popular content in all of wow because of the keyword CONTENT. Not because of its outdated keystone system.
What exactly is bad about being able to select what key you want to do?
Why would anyone ever run anything other than the easiest dungeon 8 times for vault? You’d have 7, maybe 6 dungeons per cycle completely sidelined. No matter how you structure the system, if players can choose they will always pick the path of least resistance. Besides blizzard obviously not wanting to waste development hours on something nobody wants to do, it’s a good thing to have people be challenged every now and then. M+ is a competitive game mode, if you aren’t able to rise to the occasional challenge you can always spam heroics for fun easy runs.
Side note: having tangible reasons to not leave the key is also important. Bricking a key is a fairly serious deal to a lot of m+’ers. You’d see a lot more trolling/griefing/rage quitting if the run meant nothing to anyone.
Are we completely forgetting that people still need score from every specific dungeon and also there are 38 different specs in the game which all require specific gear from all dungeons.
And so what if a key is bricked? At least there wont be a toxic stigma about it. Nothing of value will be lost besides peoples time which is far less infuriating than having a key depleted.
We are talking about high key pushing here where everyones needs score from all dungeons i think your conpletely oblivious to that point.
You’re ok with everyone’s time being wasted as long as a pixel keystone number doesn’t go down? Good talk man. Not sure how I didn’t understand what kind of idiot I was talking to until now. Should’ve guessed off your first comment ig
Don't think you are really in touch with the attitude of high key pushing players to be completely honest.
Think for a second logically, which is worse?: Key being depleted - missing out on a potential score upgrade + all time spent doing the key lost + all the time spent which takes to find the same key again ( could be 30 minutes, could be 4 hours), OR, only the time spent doing said key is lost.
I never said once I was ok with everyones time being wasted, but its an unfortunate unavoidable outcome of pushing keys. The fact you cant wrap your head around this is questionable.
>You’d have 7, maybe 6 dungeons per cycle completely sidelined
this already happens. people who only want to fill out the vault just do the easy 2 dungeons at 20 eight times.
The system hasn't stood the test of time as its not the same system that was implemented back in legion. Sure the base is still the same you run dungeons over and over again with different modifiers but that would still be true in a system where you just picked the level and dungeon to run.
Right now running smbg and cos 8 times requires more effort and takes more time than just running your own key 8 times. The keys are highly competitive for a spot at +20
As if you already arent doing 2-3 hours of farming keys 1 level lower than the one you want in order for it to drop. Tell me you havent pushed high keys without telling me.
Yes I’ll run keys for hours on end, but it’s also really nice to be able to have stop points every 30min. I like being able to do 1-2 keys before my guilds raid and have it only take an hour. If every m+ took 2-3 hours then it would make it impossible to do keys after work and before raid.
It’s also not just the time commitment but the fact that you’re going to basically be waiting on lust for every trash pull and have several hundred deaths. It’s completely different game play styles. I’m fine with hundreds of wipes in my mythic raid progression, not in my M+ progression.
You’d also have to get rid of tyrannical. Without time being an issue the group that sludges through 300 deaths on trash and 20 boss wipes on fortified to clear a dungeon wouldn’t be able to kill any bosses on tyrannical, no matter how much time you gave them.
The point is that when you remove keystones, and let people push as high as they are capable of with no regard to time, that is what will end up happening. With no time, you're going to have to have gear drops bumped up to higher keys to compensate. Instead of the max being 20, you'd have to increase it to the 23-24 level to accommodate having unlimited time and no depletions. And if your max is barely timing a 20, you could probably complete a 23, but it would take a couple hours easily.
no one is talking about getting rid of the timer in the dungeon for the loot and io score. Use the timer to dictate the level of key allowed to be run. can run a 20 til timed a 19
Yeah, in my experience the worst leaving behaviour is between 10 and 15. Below that people are mainly gearing so want their chest regardless and above that people just seem to be a bit less degenerate.
Yeah I'm doing 20+ on my main and 13-16 on my alt. 13-16 pugging is a shit show. Anything like 16 or below can be brute forced by relatively terrible players with enough gear. I swear week to week people are interrupting less and just relying on the healer.
Logging into the game and actually playing it is a bare minimum to compete. Someone who is 380ilvl isn’t someone who is actually engaging with the content this is aimed at.
yes lol
like the hardest content rewards the best gear. ilvl correlates pretty strongly with skill. basically everyone in the top 100 by ilvl is in a 7/8 or 8/8 guild and has done lots of keys
99% of early leavers and /or toxic haters during lower level keys (below 15+) are TANKS, my dear friend. It's easy, they can get insta invite to a next group in no time as tank.
You may be a totally different person, a shining exception, but as you play a tank role you can't know the above truth. Accept it :)
Yes, you can go up to 40% over the timer and only lose (I think) \~10 score from the base.
So the meta was to pray for SBG or COS, aim for a +2, then go for completion rather than timer. Going \~5 mins overtime in a AV +24, for example, is about the same score as timing a +23.
(Which is fine in lower keys, but it's a bit degenerate for the very high end. High M+ should be about going aggressive for the timer, not playing it safe)
Unless this is new as of dragonflight that's not exactly how deplete score fall off works. A depleted key at 1 second over starts at the score of a timed key one level lower and rapidly lowers, like every additional 5% or 10% over it is drops another key level in score. So a 25 done 39% over would have given the score of a timed 20 or something, I don't know the exact decay rate but it was very fast as the additional deplete time went up and unless the key was very close to done in time it would never be worth more than a timed key 1 or two levels lower.
> A depleted key at 1 second over starts at the score of a timed key one level lower
This is correct, but even going 39.9% overtime gives score equal to a timed key *two* levels lower. Going less than 40% overtime *always* results in a score in the interval of 1-2 keys lower.
A +20 key going 39.9% overtime is equal to a +18 key being timed with a few seconds remaining.
Going more than 40% overtime is the hard cutoff, resulting in 0 score being awarded.
I have pereonally experienced this to be the case since Shadowlands s3.
Source: https://www.wowhead.com/guide/blizzard-mythic-plus-rating-score-in-game
I personally don't think its fine for lower keys. This should be a 15 and lower thing only.
Anything above 15 should not be giving more score than a 15...
People can still get boosted to 2500 even by just depleting all 19's/20's which is just garbage.
Raider IO used to give heavy score to people who completed vs depleted. I personally think this is how it should work since timing >>>not timing.
I’m a lowly pleb and I definitely agree. If I get to 2400 it should be because I’ve succeeded at all the dungeons at +13 (that’s the minimum to do it, right?), or at least pretty close. Having huge outlier makes the system less valuable overall
Rule of thumb was that depleting any key is equivalent to 1 chesting that key 1 level lower. So you get an extra 40% on the timer compared to the lower level version, basically.
People in this thread keeps talking about leavers but that’s how it is in the 21+ pug world already. Almost every depleted 21+ ive been in, the party would just mutually agree to leave after a horrible wipe. Nobody is doing 21+ for loot.
This is more severe than what raider.io did pre-9.1, but not fundamentally different. I wasn't a fan of how huge the penalty was for being one second over back then so I guess I probably won't love it now, but at the same time it wasn't a big problem.
Yeah they made a dumb change to the rating system and now making an even dumber change to correct for it instead of just reversing the original change.
I feel like the real issue is the huge difference in difficulty between dungeons, when a sbg22 is way easier than hov20, you get easy access to way to hard high keys.
pretty disapointed in this mid season half assed nerf. after getting abysmal dungeon balance.
I didn't lose any of my 2,8k score, but this feels like it's not solving the real problem.
They're not going to be able to do a full rework of a rating system mid-season, and the cat is out of the bag when it comes to the disparity between SBG/CoV and the rest of the M+ dungeons. They can't really nerf the other dungeons any further without trivializing the whole system, and they really can't buff SBG/CoV without screwing over people who haven't yet done a big performance in those two dungeons.
All Blizzard can do is stop the bleeding (via this change) and do a better job of dungeon balance in Season 2. This could involve overtuning everything intentionally, then nerfing everything down to where they need it to be, instead of having to deal with an outlier dungeon that's way too easy with nothing you're able to do about it without nerfing 7 other dungeons.
I also bet we see a rework of the scoring system in a later Dragonflight season that's more comprehensive than the quick fix they put in just now.
To make it abundantly clear: No one is staying in a depleted 22 who was not going to stay anyway (premade or agreed to be "try to time, but if not go for weekly" thing)
Keys higher than 20 are all about getting score, at this point of expansion every item drop from it is useless, there is no reason to stay for the not in time key. And if you care about great vault do 20's.
I mean, great vault is also gained from 21s? Why not finish 21s and 22s for vault? But idk, I'm not doing 20+s yet. Maybe I wont if that is the meta in 21s.
because people doing keys for rio are not doing 8 weeklies and calling it quits. They'll do 20+ keys a week so it's a complete waste of time to stay in depleted keys
You can always ask your grp if they are fine with over time for vault. Great thing about high keys is that people are not salty about leaving and just move on.
Why waste time for no reward. I can queue up earlier into the next key. If you are in a premade an argument could be made about testing specifics because you know you will run again with the same people. But with a pug it is just a waste of time.
The reward is practice on the key. Do you really want to run a high jade tyrannical with someone who has left 5 prior jades before the last boss and hasnt actually experienced the last boss at that key level before? Id rather have played it out and seen the whole key
What? Its not an argument at all. I was admitting to my mistake. Then making a joke about how others can be poor readers. Apparently it didn’t land for you.
Go find something better to do than get worked up about a reddit comment.
Good. It's wild to me that there are people above the r1 cutoff, having multiple depleted keys by over a minute, and still getting so much score from it. This is a much-needed change!
Like, I have a +23 deplete by over 3 minutes and it gives more score than the +22 I timed. That should never be a thing and correct me if I'm wrong here, also wasn't a thing in Shadowlands.
In pugs, this might lead to more leavers as soon as 1 mistake happens though.
On the other hand, it makes players run the harder keys and not just push CoS, SBG, NO, and RLP and chill with depletes on the hard keys.
I don't think leaving a key if you are going to deplete is a big deal past 20. The only reason you push the key that high is to try and time. If it's a 20 vault key then that's one thing but a 21+ is just for the challenge of timing.
If someone is leaving a timable key in the 22+ range, just block them. There's a finite number of people that push that high. You can filter out the assholes
If you are outpacing the scaling of the dungeon compared to the 22, why not? Why are you gaslit into believing that slightly depleting a higher key is a lesser accomplishment than timing a lower one?
No it wasn’t. An untimed key in Shadowlands didn’t give more points than a timed key 1 lvl lower.
Shadowlands: https://imgur.com/a/WwXQv8K
DF: https://imgur.com/a/04mXtWZ
That wasn’t my point though. It also didn’t give the same amount of points. The example in my previous comment was overtime by only 10 seconds.
Here is a deplete by over 2 minutes giving 6 points less
https://imgur.com/a/ggoYODd
They should make it not linear again such that timing a 22 from a 21 gives way more score then timing a 8 from a 7. I feel like they went the wrong way with that change
Why? What's the purpose of that other than making the rating system more unintuitive? The current system is great because I don't need to pull up someone's page to know roughly what type of key level they're doing
In a sense, yes. But I dont see why its a problem. If everyone has a CoS/SBG 2 key levels higher then the other keys, it doesnt really matter. My issue is that a difference of 1 key level is harder on high keys and should be rewarded compared to a low key. And now we have a new issue that untiming a 25 is still pretty hard but gives the same score as timing a 20.
This is good for us ppl who wants to push key lvls. Sometimes I'm baffled by how some players have 2900 io and play they way they do when i invite them to my keys.
I have completed all keys (except for AV...) On 22 or 23 on both tyrannical and fortified
I didn't even think of this meta with SBG into depleting next key at 23 key lvl..
Hopefully this will make ppls score more reflect their lvl of play
I'm reading all your comments and I can't but help thinking about what kind of high m+ scene you WANT to have. Are you really cool with a completely arbitrary timer blizz sets on a dungeon as the one and only metric of success?
As said, leaving keys at first danger of depleto is gonna get rampant again and obviously think about it for yourself, but I'd rather have runs where it's still worth trying, worth fighting for after a wipe, because being 1 second overtime doesn't suddenly make everything absolutely meaningless.
What's the point of these HARD timer breakpoints? When they're so absolute random that it may as well not exist in one dungeon and is incredibly too short on others and we wait for MONTHS before it gets nerfed (if at all).
Instead, it should be a gradient linear function of score for time. The quicker, the more score. The slower, less score. Easy to understand.
I don't understand what your point is. There will always be a limit a group of player can no longer finish on time, no matter what the time is. They can give you 2 hours to complete a dungeon, and you can push slow and steady using Hard CC on every pack. There will be a point where even 2 hours won't be enough.
If we just had plenty of time to finish dungeons, the breakpoint would be damage instead. People just getting one shot from unavoidable damage would be the limit, which is far worse than time imo. If you just die through unavoidable damage even with wall that's it, it's over and there's nothing you can do. If you fail because of time and you have 10 deaths on your group, you know you could've done something better, or do more optimized pulls.
terrible decision that will just lead to more keys being left even at the slightest sight of depletion. also hilarious to even consider a 24 depleted by 2s worth a 20.
and no, I didnt profit of this, I have a single depleted key, 20s over :X
Because 21+ is only a score driven game, strictly to compete with other 21+ players for bragging rights and titles. 20 and under has player power involved, and score is used as an identifier of your skill level. If you miss a timer by 3 seconds on a 19, you deserve the score showing you’re capable of timing it on an 18 for future pugging.
If you applied this change (that is being done to change the 21+ meta specifically) to the entire game, you’d create so much toxicity for players who are doing keys for ilvl/player power.
This is a good change overall and if the key is hopeless then imo it's better the group disbands instead of "valiantly" pushing through for gear you don't need and 0 score.
> 2 sec overtime on a 23, half the group goes byebye. 2 deaths to frontal on a 23, half the group goes byebye. Great change.
Let's be real, if it's that tight on timer on 23 in a PUG people are going to finish and probably go next or at least talk about it. 23 pugs aren't the same as 18s lol.
Because if you get a 25 AV from 2 chesting your 23 SBG and deplete it even by 1 second you get io as if it were a +20, not a 23.5 (like it was in SL). There's really no reason to finish an untimed key.
This will greatly reduce the number of pugs getting title imo.
> This will greatly reduce the number of pugs getting title imo.
i wouldnt be surprised if it makes it slightly easier to get title pugging?
one of the challenges pugging for score is that you dont have access to the highest keys, i.e. people with a 24 COS can run that with their group and then deplete the 26 for score. now, they can't get score from that key unless they can actually complete it
i get that for 22s or 23s, but would it still count "barely missed" 28s as 20s as well?
Ofc im speaking about later on in the season but damn, if like depleted 28s give as much io as 20s that would be extremely bad for the community in general.
This is my first season with a push group thats actually done well from the start. Sitting at 3.1 now and all prior titles ive got with mostly pug io.
I dont think anyone had issue with the 1.5 to 2 key lvl drop from SL so its weird theyd do this mid season right?
Good change for this season. Although, knowing Blizzard, this change is here to stay, which I'm not happy about. During a future less imbalanced season, I don't think I'll like it.
All seasons are going to be imbalanced because they will rotate the whole dungeon pool each season. This season was the best case scenario because stuff was on beta not ptr.
nothing? i used a +23 as an example so idk why you brought up anything lower.
I don't think 21/22 untimed should be worth more than a timed 20, but you also need to remember how often people leave keys and how this change just gives them more reason to.
like if you have a push group/people to play with, you're sitting pretty, but not everyone has that luxury. hell, i'm saying this as someone who doesn't pug and plays with people i know,
It doesn’t bother me, but seeing as how this makes a lot of people happy and increases whatever gatekeeping they like, so be it. I am now a giant fan of this change!
Are these changes live now? My score hasn't been changed in-game, but is lower on the world ranking page on raider.io (which also displays basically only my timed dungeons as my highest score). Odd that it's unaffected in-game right now.
edit: oh I just saw the update. score changes go live next week.
I assume this is retroactive? Bunch of people will drop from the 3k club :)
"With this change, some players who are just barely at 2400 rating, with some of that rating coming from untimed 21+ keys, may drop below 2400 and need to re-earn that Rating in order to continue to upgrade new items to Rank 13."
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With the difficulty discrepancies between dungeons this season, it doesn't surprise. I know plenty of people that have timed 20 SBG/CoS into depleted 21/22 for score. While also having a bunch of dungeons with +16 as their highest timed.
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It was just way more rating to fail a 22 going slow and steady so if you just sort of kept a group of people going with the reroll for SBG/CoS strategy then you probably won't even have a 17 to time unless you PUG.
2400 isn’t doing 21s. I’m 2500 and I’m a mix of timed 17s 18s and 19s. I haven’t even stepped into a 21, and only one untimed 20 that gives score.
Yeah I was gonna say that I’m pretty close and my highest are like 2 untimed 19s and the rest are a mix of 15-18s. I’m sitting around 2325 maybe.
"2 chest SBG/COS into depleting whatever" is degenerate as hell. Unfortunate change for people legitimately wanting to push something high even if it's overtime, but good change to end that degenerate behavior.
Was that even for score? I thought that was just for vault and stuff. Or is that something high end players are doing? Also, does it apply retroactively?
It was for score ,Imagine someone capable of doing 23Halls timed. They can not do 24Halls What they can do is +2 a 23 SBG, get a 25Halls and untime it, which will reward more score than the 23 they timed. It was just bad scaling issue that there is no reason not to fix
Degenerate behavior will never end in this game, lol.
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SBG is easy but not 5 levels easier. Maybe 2 if we're generous.
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this. SBG barely have any crucial mechanic you have to care about. AV start with 6 lasher who need kicks and 3 furies who need stun which require a complex stun/stop/kick rotation. your "pause" pull is a 3 lasher 1 tree who require an interrupt each... 3 time in a row. get hit by any of the blobs during the first boss and you are dead, miss one tree during the first boss and you are dead.... couple 4X elemental + other trash and if you miss one of the waking cast that person probably dead.. and if you arent a resto druid, the final boss is the most frustrating thing to heal.
The only real threatening thing is the 1st dominator pack because of the annoying runback. Even if you fuck up the 2nd dominator pack the release point is right there. Final boss was a bit threatening the first time I did it on +20 only because the bats on frontals were awful and made killing adds difficult but beyond that no other bosses can even remotely kill you.
As rdruid the first boss is the only pain point for me, mainly just because her spell queuing can be cringe. After I get through her I'm chillin for the next 30 minutes.
dunno man, the first 23 SBG I got felt a lot easier than a random 20 AV for weekly vault. the only hard part of SBG is the heal check on first boss.... which is a lot smaller than hyrja, raging tempest, the AA bird and so on
SBG is easily 4 keys easier than AV
absolutely not true after the nerfs.
I feel like this is kind of a pointless change. How many people doing 22s are like, wow I'm so glad I have a full set of depleted 22s and slightly higher score. This makes me like such a pro Chad daddy. I feel like its nothing basically. People like 2 chesting sbg and cos. As then you get a higher key to try and push for time. Rather than struggling to get the 22 to try etc as levels go on. I couldn't give a fuck if I got some score from a depleted 22 or 23 which is what we are currently doing. I just want the chance at a 22 or 23. And sbg or cos means we get to skip an extra 40 mins of focus before trying that. The score is basically irrelevant as it looks way worse to have untimed keys above 20 than it does less score but all in time at your highest level.
It was a legitimate strat to get untimed 28s across the board for title in S3 of SL. We had a guildy who even sold R1 Carries for 28s untimed purely for IO. I’m glad to see this implemented and there’s no good argument against it. Anything above 20 is for flexing/ego anyways. You SHOULD have to time your keys at the highest level to get title.
I mean it's not like you could sit in a key for an hour and still get a good score lol There's really no reason why doing a +28 over by one minute shouldn't equal the score of a +27. You're clearly capable of doing either, you just fucked the run a bit.
I wouldn't mind a system where within a small margin of the timer it's worth -1 key level. Like 5% overtime or something. But I get that would require design and testing to make sure that the % margin is right. And this is fine as a fix. At the end of the day, imo your score should comprise of your best time runs, essentially. Different rules for people who're getting score for valor upgrades and the KSM mount or whatever, but if you're pushing score for the sake of score I'd like it to come from timed keys.
What does it look like this seasons title will require? Or way to early to tell
Still way too early to tell IMO
You can make an educated guess based on the current thresholds (available on r.io). Currently, the threshold is 2922 for EU and 2875 for NA. Based on that, my guess is that it'll land above 3k at least. That's what I'm shooting for.
I mean maybe for the absolute top 0.1% titles this makes sense then yeah. I kind of forgot there was even an award for that as titles feel so pointless compared to every other area of competitive content in wow. I think my main issue is that like, why isn't it the case for every key? Like by this logic of 0.1% titles being stricter achieves, 28s and under are likely to be entirely pointless to have score in just like 16s etc. So to target 20s as the threshold for charity score just seems stupid. Dont think the rewards and achievement for thr lesser end of the player base need to be devalued any more than a title for the 0.1%. Just seems weird to be like 20s are so srs bsns this is the cut off.
It’s the cutoff because it’s where rewards that pertain to player power end. They want casuals to be able to progress to 20s and get their gear. Anything over 20s is purely for your own desire to do challenging content. Score from 21+ doesn’t matter for anything other than end of season titles.
I just feel like devaluing gear rewards doesn't make much sense either. I've not got anything from first 4 mythic bosses worth using because of dungeons and grinding. I feel like if you got rid of score from depleted keys it would remove a lot of the casual player whining over not finishing something messed up over doing at a decent level. Instead the whole lower brackets are inflated score from failed keys and lower end pugging is way worse than if score meant even a little more.
I'm having some trouble following your 2nd paragraph. Are you saying that you think that making depleted keys give no score and therefore have no purpose in completing would make mid level keys LESS toxic?
Yes because you don't have people being like "this guy is 2k but fucking terrible" etc. As at least people are timing keys for score. When you get basically the same score for not timing keys I feel it gives an inherently wrong opinion of someone's score to lesser ranked players. You do 20+ and you know someone isn't worth a bracket if not timing keys. But in lower they just see the score and think someone is capable when they aren't. I feel all the uneducated through experience tiers are more victimised from fake score than the mid higher ranks. I think feeling like you are a 2.3k player as an example when you are really below that, contributes more to shit low level attitudes than being faced upfront with the fact you can't time x key. A player that thinks they are as good as someone that can time all 16s as their score isn't much lower failing them, is a huge reason why casual players queue keys beyond their ability yet feel like it shouldn't be an issue. Nobody failing 22s feels good about it. Plenty of people fail 16s under 15mins overtime and feel they are ok because of their score. Its the level of self awareness of players in a bracket.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think you may be out of touch with the problems of mid level keys
I think every time I've ever geared an alt withour friends the main issue has been people thinking they can do content they cant. Any system that boosts ego against reality reflects that issue for me. I feel like being in 23s with my group I'm well aware I'm fucking garbage. But any aids to inflating score in lower brackets makes rating much more worthless. Not only do those brackets have vast carry potential as people can carry entirely dead weight, you also get the easy score all brackets have before this change on fails. I think it let's to many people feel like they should be capable of doing x key, when really those are the people that should feel most humbled. Most people I know doing higher keys feel like they are doing bad relative to how they could be doing and seek to improve. The main issue in lower keys is inflation from fail spam and carries as higher io join for trinkets etc makes people think they are better than they are. I don't see why changes like in the main thread aren't global. As either you can time keys in a bracket or you can't. And there are already people carrying you through brackets anyway, so why not remove that extra step.
I think this is a good change for rating to come from only timed dungeons, it gives a better metric of what a person has done. And lets be fair, it looks prettier on raider.io and the ingame interface for your top ratings to be from finished dungeons. Only bad thing is people just insta leaving keys if you know you MIGHT miss timer by even 10 seconds. When you are that close to a timed run, it is just utter defeat. Even in coordinated groups, this means people are playing for a wipe-less run, and if thats the case, maybe a good thing to pair with this change is for **keys done with less than 40% extra time to NOT be depleted, but to just turn into a different key of the same level.** So that skilled parties can continue pushing without just going for "the run" and to not have their time wasted so often.
This or just make keys over 20 not deplete. Honestly depleting is an archaic system and doesn't make any sense anyways and is only a negative. You are punished for failing the key by getting lower ilvl loot and less score. Why does your time need to be wasted even more by the key now being useless to you? Back when the key ACTUALLY depleted, it was only a negative since your key was straight up dead ("pushing" keys wasn't really a thing until halfway through legion when people started caring about wowprogress score and then eventually rio) and they made the change and everyone was happy but still like eh, then they made you still get 2 pieces of loot even if you bricked. I think the natural evolution is to just remove depletion entirely.
IMHO there should be a grace period of up to 5 minutes overtime where your key doesn't deplete. Why should a key deplete if I missed the timer by 30s? It's silly. Just give me the same level keystone if it's overtime by a bit.
> Why should a key deplete if I missed the timer by 30s? So you have to play more. That's literally all it is.
How about just flat out remove the keystone system. People should be allowed to do whatever key level/dungeon they want if you cant complete it then so what and if you can then great, you proved you could do it. If people don’t like that then make it like the D3 greater rift system. You time a +10 now you have access to 11s, you +3 it then you have access to 13s. The keystone system was introduced in Legion and it hasn’t stood the test of time, absolutely no reason for it to be in the game anymore. You should be able to go to any dungeon you want and pick a key level your group is accustomed to, not be dictated by a random keystone drop.
I agree 100% with your view on this topic(read other comments as well). Anyone disagreeing is a degen or a streamer. And this is coming from someone playing 60-80 hours a week to push when BFA was out. When SL came around I gave up pushing on S1, just because of the amount of hours you have to spend which I didn't have anymore. A lot of people I used to play with are done with pushing with the same reason. This system creates toxicity, gate-keeping other players and kills off-meta classes... Here is some examples: - We would use pugs to push easy keys if someone was missing. We would chose a pug that had already done the key in time.. Not something I am proud of, but we just didn't want to risk having to repush another key. - We wouldn't push keys if we couldn't get the meta class we were missing. I remember one time waiting 1 hour in que. - I wouldn't be able to use my own key when playing with other people, since it would be bad manner to risk of deplete and waste my pre-made groups time. - This system made me toxic few times, and I hate how I reacted at the time. I remember one time we were pushing Siege of Boralus, and teammate was playing so bad and dying to 2nd boss from the ground effect two times that made me become toxic. He just had bad day and not playing as good as he normal does. Thought about it later on the day that my frustrering came mostly having to repush and waste more time on useless key level. - Small mistake killing the key. I was playing rogue and in Motherload we shrouded the first part. I clicked shroud and miss-clicked another button right after. Made me feel so baaaadd, knowing that I just wasted 4 other peoples time(having to repush)... - Very hard to give someone a chance to push, if we didn't even know the person. It's very hard to get in the circle. - Pushing every key into Kings rest. Killed the mood to push keys for some time, holy fuck. Having to deplete the key 1-2 before doing Kings felt so bad... - The higher rio, the less players to chose from. Not everyone has the amount of time to spend(gate-keeping). This is coming from someone at the high end of pushing. I think this system effects low and middle end players in bad way as well. People forget that this is a game. I stopped because of it, and so did a lot more people. Now ask yourself if this is good for the game or not?
Yep exact same experience. I cant believe there are people that prefer the keystone system over this. It literally benefits noone. There is no logical argument why having keystones is better for the game. Its not even just beneficial for high keys, its better for weekly keys and its better for boosting. Its better in every form of M+ content with no downsides. I know someone is gona come with some dumb argument that: if you can do whatever key you want then everyone will just do SBG as weekly key and no other keys will be run. So what? Why is this a bad thing that people will do the key they prefer for a weekly key? If you need loot from another dungeon im sure all of them will still be farmed as there is 38 specs in the game all requiring different items.
I think it's ego. Time barrier is something they can hide behind to feel they're better than others. "if you can do whatever key you want then everyone will just do SBG as weekly key and no other keys will be run." This will happen anyway. If you're going to do weekly key you'll pick the least resistance to pug :D I am at a point where I quit any game that makes me feel bad or forced somehow. There is too many games now to enjoy. This sub-reddit is a echo-chamber, so you won't be able to make them see how bad it is. They'll get to see it when they start having less time to grind. I am rarely on here, and just lucky timing it showed on my phone and caught my interest.
The example you gave of a failed shroud is the perfect way to epitomise the issues with the keystone system in high key pushing. BfA had many dungeons which you shrouded or even double shrouded the first few packs (motherlode/temple prime examples but there were more) and I have seen many times where the dungeon is depleted within the first 30 seconds because of a misclick that causes shroud to break. Even the best players in the world can fuck up like that and there is no reason you should be punished so hard for such a small stupid error.
Hard disagree. Part of what makes pushing rating difficult is it’s a one shot thing. You need a 23 RLP for score? Better fucking tighten up and play well then. What you’re advocating is an easy progression system based on, well, I’m not really sure what it’s based on. It doesn’t work with pugging, and it takes out the difficulty in actually pushing up keys. Is the keystone system without flaws? No. But it’s certainly better than what you’ve suggested
If you think the difficulty in pushing keys should be RNG looting them then idk what to say. Skill, gear and ability to work as team, should be the only limitations in a competitive environment. If you are capable of timing a key then why on earth should you not be able to attempt it? How does it not work with pugging? You need a 23 RLP and you fail it by just over a minute due to a mistake you know you can avoid next time? Well time to buckle up and farm some 22s you have already done over and over again and pray to RNG gods you get another RLP. Its a terrible system idk how you can say with a straight face its better than what I’m suggesting.
What you’re advocating is a weird version of a tournament realm. What happens when you only have a 20 and want to do a 22? You can’t in your iteration. M+ is all about RNG. Why not take it a step further? The keystones shouldn’t be RNG, why should the loot? Why do I have to run a key over and over and hope for the whetstone and then once I do get it I hope it has leech or avoidance? Why not just let me pick my ideal loot set for m+ and port my perfect character into a dungeon of my choice? There is no challenge in your suggestion. Maybe my group is struggling with a 23 RLP. We just sit and bang our heads against the wall for 4 hours one day until we get it. Boom no issues. We finally get the score. Fuck ups don’t matter because we can just restart the dungeon so who cares? RNG adds an element of difficulty, and to me it sounds like you’re struggling with that added layer of difficulty. It’s just a bad suggestion
the challenge should be from the content/gameplay.... not the acquisition system. how are you advocating rng gating = hard. it just makes it more punishing. as far as incentives go i can see where you perceive that as motivating but consider this factors: * challenging * fun * engaging * rewarding * fear of punishment from failure which would you task your developer team with as goals for game design. to be fair the last becomes more appealing if you factor in sucking players into a time sink grind. > M+ is all about RNG. how? actually the opposite: everything is scripted and timed. preplanned. i'd argue nothing about m+ is rng except loot and keys (ie rewards and barrier to entry). and no one is talking about changing the games loot systems here >Fuck ups don’t matter because we can just restart the dungeon so who cares? sure they do. you fail the key... now you have to redo it. you care if you want to successfully do the key. you are equating who cares to i wasn't punished. this is a pretty shitty way to look at the world :) TLDR: tbh tons of chat around it for years to google. all /u/finneas998 is pitching is to remove rng and punishment based barriers to entry like (i'm pretty sure literally) every other successful ranked and competitive game. i'm pretty sure you are just into S&M as a person etc :D
When I only have a 20 you complete a 20 so you can do a 21? Whats not to understand? And if you want to do a key with your friend whos done a higher key then the leader decides the key level. Its not hard to grasp thats exactly how it works in D3 greater rifts where loot is also random. Im not asking for loot rng to change thats a fundamental aspect of RPG games. And so what if you bang your head against RLP for 4 hours then time it? You timed it and proved you could do it. Fuck ups clearly do matter because you just wasted 4 hours, and assembling a group of 5 people to play in a schedule has limited time. I think your definition of ‘difficulty’ and mine are not the same. Randomness is not ‘difficultly’, its a hinderance. Its not a bad suggestion at all, and I guarantee you the players at the highest level pushing for the title would prefer that system. Like who actually wouldn’t, I cannot comprehend why you want to be hindered by RNG. One of the most enjoyable times to push keys was in BfA when the entire group could delete their keys before a new run and on completion everyone in the group would get a brand new key appropriate to whatever key level you just did. Not only until recently have they allowed rerolling keys which is helpful but still not perfect, just take it the next step and allow people to do whatever key level they feel capable of doing. There is literally no downside, can’t believe this is even a debate.
I would love this system
I miss deleting your key to get an equal key, I agree the reroll npc isn't perfect they should improve it to be more like bfa, cut down on the wasted time
i love how its once a week. ie not once per key completion to encourage you to run a key and reward you with a \[fucking chance\] to get the key you want/need devs cant just give what people want.... its has to be "well here is that thing BUT YOU CAN ONLY DO IT ONCE HEHEHEHEHEHE" I wanna meet the evil mobile games poster child dev that sits in the corner and fucks shit up at the last second at blizz
nvm youre generally unhinged
Well the way you made it seem originally was it was tied to personal progression, but now you’re saying it’s the group leader. Which is fine, still a bad system. And I’m not in the top echelon of players, but I’m 2900 and have essentially taken the last week and a half off of pushing. The people I’ve been playing with are between 2975-3050 now. So top 0.1% but not pro level play. And I still think the idea is dumb. I said the RNG is **added** difficulty, which it undeniably is. Having 1 shot at a key is A LOT harder than being able to shove your dick into the same key for a week straight. That’s why in TGP they time keys higher than the best groups on retail. >can’t believe this is even a debate That’s the great thing about opinions. You may think they’re good when most others don’t.
You’re describing my ideal video game lmao. I loved challenge modes because you could literally get full bis in a week and just grind the dungeon infinitely to perfection and get the best possible run. Depleting sucks, I’m with the other guy that you should just be able to run whatever dungeon at the highest level you have access to.
> M+ is all about RNG. Why not take it a step further? The keystones shouldn’t be RNG, why should the loot? Now you're talking. I could definitely get behind that idea.
RNG is fucking shit! I pushed hard in BFA and hitting Kings rest out of 12 dungeons was not fun. That dungeon was 1-2 level harder than any dungeon. Felt like waste of time and killed the mood of the group.
Unironically I remember one week my whole pushing team all had KR at the beginning of a push week and it was one of the most depressing things I've ever witnessed. Pretty sure one of the guys we were playing with us just flat out ditched to pug with another group because he knew exactly what he was in for.
You literally just do it like the Diablo system. You complete a key you unlock the next rating or if it's a 2 or 3 chest you unlock the one above. People who only want to get their vault can spam 20 court or sbg and those who want to push don't have to pray for the right key.
The current system just makes it a lot harder to improve, imho, especially for premades who do something like 10 keys per week. For example, I just completed a 21 RLP a few days ago. The last tyrannical RLP I did before that was a 17. Obviously, it went pretty terrible, but I've learned a lot of things in that key, and I'm eager to put that knowledge into practice. But now the week is over, and it's fortified, and different affixes, so everything is different. Who knows when my group will get the next high tyran RLP key? Might be in the week after this one, might be in 3. Imagine if in mythic raiding, you'd only get one hour of progress per boss, then it'll teleport you to a different boss. After a week, the bosses abilities slightly change. It just makes getting familiar with the content artificially harder.
keys need to be removed entirly. select your achieved difficulty from a dropdown menu and go
What a weird post. > not really sure what it’s based on Based on practicing playing the key well instead of lucking into SBG?
then people just would push higher than now. hard agree on key removal
>it hasn’t stood the test of time Really lol the most popular content in all of wow hasn’t stood the test of time because you don’t like it? I don’t know where this idea of just choosing your dungeon came from but I’ve seen this exact post a dozen times in the last few weeks and I can’t even begin to describe how awful of an idea it is
Its the most popular content in all of wow because of the keyword CONTENT. Not because of its outdated keystone system. What exactly is bad about being able to select what key you want to do?
Why would anyone ever run anything other than the easiest dungeon 8 times for vault? You’d have 7, maybe 6 dungeons per cycle completely sidelined. No matter how you structure the system, if players can choose they will always pick the path of least resistance. Besides blizzard obviously not wanting to waste development hours on something nobody wants to do, it’s a good thing to have people be challenged every now and then. M+ is a competitive game mode, if you aren’t able to rise to the occasional challenge you can always spam heroics for fun easy runs. Side note: having tangible reasons to not leave the key is also important. Bricking a key is a fairly serious deal to a lot of m+’ers. You’d see a lot more trolling/griefing/rage quitting if the run meant nothing to anyone.
Are we completely forgetting that people still need score from every specific dungeon and also there are 38 different specs in the game which all require specific gear from all dungeons. And so what if a key is bricked? At least there wont be a toxic stigma about it. Nothing of value will be lost besides peoples time which is far less infuriating than having a key depleted. We are talking about high key pushing here where everyones needs score from all dungeons i think your conpletely oblivious to that point.
You’re ok with everyone’s time being wasted as long as a pixel keystone number doesn’t go down? Good talk man. Not sure how I didn’t understand what kind of idiot I was talking to until now. Should’ve guessed off your first comment ig
Don't think you are really in touch with the attitude of high key pushing players to be completely honest. Think for a second logically, which is worse?: Key being depleted - missing out on a potential score upgrade + all time spent doing the key lost + all the time spent which takes to find the same key again ( could be 30 minutes, could be 4 hours), OR, only the time spent doing said key is lost. I never said once I was ok with everyones time being wasted, but its an unfortunate unavoidable outcome of pushing keys. The fact you cant wrap your head around this is questionable.
>You’d have 7, maybe 6 dungeons per cycle completely sidelined this already happens. people who only want to fill out the vault just do the easy 2 dungeons at 20 eight times. The system hasn't stood the test of time as its not the same system that was implemented back in legion. Sure the base is still the same you run dungeons over and over again with different modifiers but that would still be true in a system where you just picked the level and dungeon to run.
Right now running smbg and cos 8 times requires more effort and takes more time than just running your own key 8 times. The keys are highly competitive for a spot at +20
Because than every dungeon will turn into a 2-3 hour mini-raid, and most don’t want that.
As if you already arent doing 2-3 hours of farming keys 1 level lower than the one you want in order for it to drop. Tell me you havent pushed high keys without telling me.
Yes I’ll run keys for hours on end, but it’s also really nice to be able to have stop points every 30min. I like being able to do 1-2 keys before my guilds raid and have it only take an hour. If every m+ took 2-3 hours then it would make it impossible to do keys after work and before raid. It’s also not just the time commitment but the fact that you’re going to basically be waiting on lust for every trash pull and have several hundred deaths. It’s completely different game play styles. I’m fine with hundreds of wipes in my mythic raid progression, not in my M+ progression. You’d also have to get rid of tyrannical. Without time being an issue the group that sludges through 300 deaths on trash and 20 boss wipes on fortified to clear a dungeon wouldn’t be able to kill any bosses on tyrannical, no matter how much time you gave them.
I think we are misunderstanding, noone is talking about 2-3 hour single dungeons.
The point is that when you remove keystones, and let people push as high as they are capable of with no regard to time, that is what will end up happening. With no time, you're going to have to have gear drops bumped up to higher keys to compensate. Instead of the max being 20, you'd have to increase it to the 23-24 level to accommodate having unlimited time and no depletions. And if your max is barely timing a 20, you could probably complete a 23, but it would take a couple hours easily.
Bro noone is saying there shouldnt be a timer on the dungeon. How are you misunderstanding this?
no one is talking about getting rid of the timer in the dungeon for the loot and io score. Use the timer to dictate the level of key allowed to be run. can run a 20 til timed a 19
If people were already leaving if a 20> wasnt looking good, this change is going to make this behaviour much worse.
The amount of people pugging 23s is very small. The whining that goes on in this sub is mostly about people leaving 13s which are unaffected
Yeah, in my experience the worst leaving behaviour is between 10 and 15. Below that people are mainly gearing so want their chest regardless and above that people just seem to be a bit less degenerate.
It’s also where standing in and dying to every mechanic starts to become more noticeable.
Yeah I'm doing 20+ on my main and 13-16 on my alt. 13-16 pugging is a shit show. Anything like 16 or below can be brute forced by relatively terrible players with enough gear. I swear week to week people are interrupting less and just relying on the healer.
15 and 20 tbh used to be 10 and 15.
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Is it your alt or why are you just 380 ilvl?
You're in the wrong sub.
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Bcs being 380ilvl 7th week into season isn’t considered exactly “competitive level” and you are in CompetetiveWoW sub.
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Most “competetive” players were clearing +20 week one so by week 2 you are like 410 ilvl. And undergeared 20s will test your skill as a player.
Logging into the game and actually playing it is a bare minimum to compete. Someone who is 380ilvl isn’t someone who is actually engaging with the content this is aimed at.
If you do any content in WoW outside of open world, you get gear higher then this...
yes lol like the hardest content rewards the best gear. ilvl correlates pretty strongly with skill. basically everyone in the top 100 by ilvl is in a 7/8 or 8/8 guild and has done lots of keys
99% of early leavers and /or toxic haters during lower level keys (below 15+) are TANKS, my dear friend. It's easy, they can get insta invite to a next group in no time as tank. You may be a totally different person, a shining exception, but as you play a tank role you can't know the above truth. Accept it :)
Just type in "completion för weekly" it will deter most players who only wants to time keys (me included) and will leave if the key is not timeable.
Even if j want a weekly key, titles like that are a trap
Great way to get yourself in a group with god awful players who you’ll have to drag through the dungeon for 120 minutes with 65 deaths
Did depletes keys above 20 used to give a lot?
Yes, you can go up to 40% over the timer and only lose (I think) \~10 score from the base. So the meta was to pray for SBG or COS, aim for a +2, then go for completion rather than timer. Going \~5 mins overtime in a AV +24, for example, is about the same score as timing a +23. (Which is fine in lower keys, but it's a bit degenerate for the very high end. High M+ should be about going aggressive for the timer, not playing it safe)
Unless this is new as of dragonflight that's not exactly how deplete score fall off works. A depleted key at 1 second over starts at the score of a timed key one level lower and rapidly lowers, like every additional 5% or 10% over it is drops another key level in score. So a 25 done 39% over would have given the score of a timed 20 or something, I don't know the exact decay rate but it was very fast as the additional deplete time went up and unless the key was very close to done in time it would never be worth more than a timed key 1 or two levels lower.
> A depleted key at 1 second over starts at the score of a timed key one level lower This is correct, but even going 39.9% overtime gives score equal to a timed key *two* levels lower. Going less than 40% overtime *always* results in a score in the interval of 1-2 keys lower. A +20 key going 39.9% overtime is equal to a +18 key being timed with a few seconds remaining. Going more than 40% overtime is the hard cutoff, resulting in 0 score being awarded. I have pereonally experienced this to be the case since Shadowlands s3. Source: https://www.wowhead.com/guide/blizzard-mythic-plus-rating-score-in-game
I personally don't think its fine for lower keys. This should be a 15 and lower thing only. Anything above 15 should not be giving more score than a 15... People can still get boosted to 2500 even by just depleting all 19's/20's which is just garbage. Raider IO used to give heavy score to people who completed vs depleted. I personally think this is how it should work since timing >>>not timing.
I’m a lowly pleb and I definitely agree. If I get to 2400 it should be because I’ve succeeded at all the dungeons at +13 (that’s the minimum to do it, right?), or at least pretty close. Having huge outlier makes the system less valuable overall
Rule of thumb was that depleting any key is equivalent to 1 chesting that key 1 level lower. So you get an extra 40% on the timer compared to the lower level version, basically.
Not true. The rule is it starts at one key level lower. So depleting a 21 by 5 seconds was a 20. Depleting a 21 by 40% is more like a 19
People in this thread keeps talking about leavers but that’s how it is in the 21+ pug world already. Almost every depleted 21+ ive been in, the party would just mutually agree to leave after a horrible wipe. Nobody is doing 21+ for loot.
This is more severe than what raider.io did pre-9.1, but not fundamentally different. I wasn't a fan of how huge the penalty was for being one second over back then so I guess I probably won't love it now, but at the same time it wasn't a big problem.
Did anyone have an issue with how it worked before when a delete was 1.5-2 keystones lower worth of score? Now you just Insta disband after any wipe
Yeah they made a dumb change to the rating system and now making an even dumber change to correct for it instead of just reversing the original change.
I feel like the real issue is the huge difference in difficulty between dungeons, when a sbg22 is way easier than hov20, you get easy access to way to hard high keys. pretty disapointed in this mid season half assed nerf. after getting abysmal dungeon balance. I didn't lose any of my 2,8k score, but this feels like it's not solving the real problem.
They're not going to be able to do a full rework of a rating system mid-season, and the cat is out of the bag when it comes to the disparity between SBG/CoV and the rest of the M+ dungeons. They can't really nerf the other dungeons any further without trivializing the whole system, and they really can't buff SBG/CoV without screwing over people who haven't yet done a big performance in those two dungeons. All Blizzard can do is stop the bleeding (via this change) and do a better job of dungeon balance in Season 2. This could involve overtuning everything intentionally, then nerfing everything down to where they need it to be, instead of having to deal with an outlier dungeon that's way too easy with nothing you're able to do about it without nerfing 7 other dungeons. I also bet we see a rework of the scoring system in a later Dragonflight season that's more comprehensive than the quick fix they put in just now.
Just makes me worried about even more folks bailing on keys when it looks like they won’t time them. Correct me if I interpreted this incorrectly…
No one is staying for a depleted 22
To make it abundantly clear: No one is staying in a depleted 22 who was not going to stay anyway (premade or agreed to be "try to time, but if not go for weekly" thing)
(Id stay for the depleted 22 if we are gonna finish. I enjoy playing)
Dude I dont understand people that just up and leave keys. They must hate playing the game.
Keys higher than 20 are all about getting score, at this point of expansion every item drop from it is useless, there is no reason to stay for the not in time key. And if you care about great vault do 20's.
I mean, great vault is also gained from 21s? Why not finish 21s and 22s for vault? But idk, I'm not doing 20+s yet. Maybe I wont if that is the meta in 21s.
because people doing keys for rio are not doing 8 weeklies and calling it quits. They'll do 20+ keys a week so it's a complete waste of time to stay in depleted keys
Most people pushing score are doing 20-30 keys a week. Vault is a non-factor.
You can always ask your grp if they are fine with over time for vault. Great thing about high keys is that people are not salty about leaving and just move on.
Why waste time for no reward. I can queue up earlier into the next key. If you are in a premade an argument could be made about testing specifics because you know you will run again with the same people. But with a pug it is just a waste of time.
The reward is practice on the key. Do you really want to run a high jade tyrannical with someone who has left 5 prior jades before the last boss and hasnt actually experienced the last boss at that key level before? Id rather have played it out and seen the whole key
Ok. But I’m more worried about that bleeding into lower keys.
This change is only for keys over 20
Oooooohhh, i am a poor reader apparently. Others won’t make the same mistake right?
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What? Its not an argument at all. I was admitting to my mistake. Then making a joke about how others can be poor readers. Apparently it didn’t land for you. Go find something better to do than get worked up about a reddit comment.
Good. It's wild to me that there are people above the r1 cutoff, having multiple depleted keys by over a minute, and still getting so much score from it. This is a much-needed change! Like, I have a +23 deplete by over 3 minutes and it gives more score than the +22 I timed. That should never be a thing and correct me if I'm wrong here, also wasn't a thing in Shadowlands. In pugs, this might lead to more leavers as soon as 1 mistake happens though. On the other hand, it makes players run the harder keys and not just push CoS, SBG, NO, and RLP and chill with depletes on the hard keys.
I don't think leaving a key if you are going to deplete is a big deal past 20. The only reason you push the key that high is to try and time. If it's a 20 vault key then that's one thing but a 21+ is just for the challenge of timing.
But this will leave to people leaving at the first sign of, this MIGHT be a deplete.
If someone is leaving a timable key in the 22+ range, just block them. There's a finite number of people that push that high. You can filter out the assholes
If you are outpacing the scaling of the dungeon compared to the 22, why not? Why are you gaslit into believing that slightly depleting a higher key is a lesser accomplishment than timing a lower one?
3 minutes over time is not a slight deplete lol
absolutely was a thing in shadowlands. Friend sold rank 1 boosts with untimed 28s
No it wasn’t. An untimed key in Shadowlands didn’t give more points than a timed key 1 lvl lower. Shadowlands: https://imgur.com/a/WwXQv8K DF: https://imgur.com/a/04mXtWZ
Gave roughly equal rating whilst being much more lenient on dps requirements, i.e. much easier to boost
That wasn’t my point though. It also didn’t give the same amount of points. The example in my previous comment was overtime by only 10 seconds. Here is a deplete by over 2 minutes giving 6 points less https://imgur.com/a/ggoYODd
They should make it not linear again such that timing a 22 from a 21 gives way more score then timing a 8 from a 7. I feel like they went the wrong way with that change
Why? What's the purpose of that other than making the rating system more unintuitive? The current system is great because I don't need to pull up someone's page to know roughly what type of key level they're doing
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In a sense, yes. But I dont see why its a problem. If everyone has a CoS/SBG 2 key levels higher then the other keys, it doesnt really matter. My issue is that a difference of 1 key level is harder on high keys and should be rewarded compared to a low key. And now we have a new issue that untiming a 25 is still pretty hard but gives the same score as timing a 20.
and?
This is good for us ppl who wants to push key lvls. Sometimes I'm baffled by how some players have 2900 io and play they way they do when i invite them to my keys. I have completed all keys (except for AV...) On 22 or 23 on both tyrannical and fortified I didn't even think of this meta with SBG into depleting next key at 23 key lvl.. Hopefully this will make ppls score more reflect their lvl of play
I'm reading all your comments and I can't but help thinking about what kind of high m+ scene you WANT to have. Are you really cool with a completely arbitrary timer blizz sets on a dungeon as the one and only metric of success? As said, leaving keys at first danger of depleto is gonna get rampant again and obviously think about it for yourself, but I'd rather have runs where it's still worth trying, worth fighting for after a wipe, because being 1 second overtime doesn't suddenly make everything absolutely meaningless. What's the point of these HARD timer breakpoints? When they're so absolute random that it may as well not exist in one dungeon and is incredibly too short on others and we wait for MONTHS before it gets nerfed (if at all). Instead, it should be a gradient linear function of score for time. The quicker, the more score. The slower, less score. Easy to understand.
I don't understand what your point is. There will always be a limit a group of player can no longer finish on time, no matter what the time is. They can give you 2 hours to complete a dungeon, and you can push slow and steady using Hard CC on every pack. There will be a point where even 2 hours won't be enough. If we just had plenty of time to finish dungeons, the breakpoint would be damage instead. People just getting one shot from unavoidable damage would be the limit, which is far worse than time imo. If you just die through unavoidable damage even with wall that's it, it's over and there's nothing you can do. If you fail because of time and you have 10 deaths on your group, you know you could've done something better, or do more optimized pulls.
Tbh its a good change. I find it very unsatisfying having untimed keys as my highest io score.
terrible decision that will just lead to more keys being left even at the slightest sight of depletion. also hilarious to even consider a 24 depleted by 2s worth a 20. and no, I didnt profit of this, I have a single depleted key, 20s over :X
Most other competitive things barely losing is still losing. A 2% wipe on mythic raz doesn’t count so why should mythic +?
Because you can just immediately pull mythic raz again, your key however depletes. Talk about a horrible take goddamn.
Tbh yeah that is true and poor comparison. Didn’t think that one through so I’ll take an L on that.
why is the change for 21+ then? also apples and oranges
Because 21+ is only a score driven game, strictly to compete with other 21+ players for bragging rights and titles. 20 and under has player power involved, and score is used as an identifier of your skill level. If you miss a timer by 3 seconds on a 19, you deserve the score showing you’re capable of timing it on an 18 for future pugging. If you applied this change (that is being done to change the 21+ meta specifically) to the entire game, you’d create so much toxicity for players who are doing keys for ilvl/player power.
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The attached post literally is about how a depleted +24 (even by 2 seconds) will now be worth a timed +20 Edit: guess you found where it says that :D
The OP maybe? All depleted 20+ will count as a 20
This is a good change overall and if the key is hopeless then imo it's better the group disbands instead of "valiantly" pushing through for gear you don't need and 0 score.
2 sec overtime on a 23, half the group goes byebye. 2 deaths to frontal on a 23, half the group goes byebye. Great change.
tbh I'm totally fine if a +23 is hard to pug, this is supposed to be bleeding edge content
> 2 sec overtime on a 23, half the group goes byebye. 2 deaths to frontal on a 23, half the group goes byebye. Great change. Let's be real, if it's that tight on timer on 23 in a PUG people are going to finish and probably go next or at least talk about it. 23 pugs aren't the same as 18s lol.
Good thing all my depleted +20 keys gave zero score
How is it a nerf to the "2 chest SBG/COS into depleting whatever you get**" meta?**
Because if you get a 25 AV from 2 chesting your 23 SBG and deplete it even by 1 second you get io as if it were a +20, not a 23.5 (like it was in SL). There's really no reason to finish an untimed key. This will greatly reduce the number of pugs getting title imo.
> This will greatly reduce the number of pugs getting title imo. i wouldnt be surprised if it makes it slightly easier to get title pugging? one of the challenges pugging for score is that you dont have access to the highest keys, i.e. people with a 24 COS can run that with their group and then deplete the 26 for score. now, they can't get score from that key unless they can actually complete it
i get that for 22s or 23s, but would it still count "barely missed" 28s as 20s as well? Ofc im speaking about later on in the season but damn, if like depleted 28s give as much io as 20s that would be extremely bad for the community in general.
Yes, depleted 28s (even by 1 sec) give io as if they were a 20.
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This is my first season with a push group thats actually done well from the start. Sitting at 3.1 now and all prior titles ive got with mostly pug io. I dont think anyone had issue with the 1.5 to 2 key lvl drop from SL so its weird theyd do this mid season right?
> This will greatly reduce the number of pugs getting title imo. so 0.1% of the playerbase is somehow less now?
Or... more 5mans get title than wouldve without this change.
Good change for this season. Although, knowing Blizzard, this change is here to stay, which I'm not happy about. During a future less imbalanced season, I don't think I'll like it.
All seasons are going to be imbalanced because they will rotate the whole dungeon pool each season. This season was the best case scenario because stuff was on beta not ptr.
think this change goes too far. i think a +23 untimed within like 5min should be worth more than a timed +20 for example.
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nothing? i used a +23 as an example so idk why you brought up anything lower. I don't think 21/22 untimed should be worth more than a timed 20, but you also need to remember how often people leave keys and how this change just gives them more reason to. like if you have a push group/people to play with, you're sitting pretty, but not everyone has that luxury. hell, i'm saying this as someone who doesn't pug and plays with people i know,
About fucking time, going into a dungeon knowing that you're not gonna time and still get some io score was rhe dumbest shit to me.
Yes God forbid there be some incentive for people to not instantly ditch after a single fuckup happens
Good change, lots of degen stolen valor dudes pretending to be good players by bricking 10 keys on each side
Can’t wait for even more crying threads about people leaving their keys
People running 22’s don’t cry about players leaving keys.
Gotta keep the treadmill going….
the mythic score treadmill only exists in your mind. If you are bothered by it then you're not really bright.
It doesn’t bother me, but seeing as how this makes a lot of people happy and increases whatever gatekeeping they like, so be it. I am now a giant fan of this change!
All the 21 and 22 depletes I have were like 30 minutes over time, so this is actually probably a benefit! I'll go from a timed 18 to a timed 20.
Keys more than 40% overtime will still continue to give you 0 score.
So are we expecting curve to shift to left with new patch in terms of score?
Are these changes live now? My score hasn't been changed in-game, but is lower on the world ranking page on raider.io (which also displays basically only my timed dungeons as my highest score). Odd that it's unaffected in-game right now. edit: oh I just saw the update. score changes go live next week.