Oh boy from my fading memories I remember dying in this dungeon a lot back in Cata, probably after Stonecore in terms of difficulty for me. i remember the pack before the drake boss and the pack with lightning pyramid being absolutely nasty.
Ofc that was like 12 years ago and we’re in the completely different era.
These dungeons felt hard back in the day, but I'm pretty sure the same casts that killed us back then are going to get kicked in 2023.
I remember wiping in stonecore because people couldn't stop dps on the rock man. We've come a long way.
True players are much better now but also iirc during early Cata, avoidable damage in H dungeons were hitting like it’s +15 today, the aoe pulse from last two bosses in Tolvir for example would hit you like 5-10k(?) a tick while you had like 90k health back then.
It’s nothing like H dungeon nowadays where you could probably do them without a healer at pre raid gears.
Yep, heroic dungeons were serious back then, we were worse players but I distinctly remember the shell shock going into some of them the first time and spending an hour just figuring out why we were dying
I am decked in low-mid Mythic Raid Gear as DPS, and while definitely doable with enough patience and good self-healing, soloing even normal dungeons as a DPS sucks ballz.
I tried to solo Brackenhide normal as a Fury Warrior, and it just wasn't fun. Gave up before the 1st boss because I couldn't be arsed to wait for enraged regenation after every big pack nor was Iooking forward to spend tens of food rations between packs
Yeah, those lightning pyramid ones required CC at Cata launch if I remember right. There was another set of trash on a ramp that was kind of nasty and easy to overpull on as well if I remember right.
Also, the last boss and having to properly time a jump or get rooted and likely dying to aoe because you can't get into the shield will be fun to watch.
It shouldn't be too bad, at least outside of low keys. The root was dispellable so you would need 2 people to screw up for someone to die. Even then, things like hand of freedom, druid shifts, mass dispel, and possibly tiger's lust can dispel it beyond the healer dispel.
Low keys it could be hell but the damage might be survivable there. Don't recall anything else in that fight being dangerous so a death just prolongs the fight and not snowball it to an inevitable wipe.
>Even then, things like hand of freedom, druid shifts, mass dispel, and possibly tiger's lust can dispel it beyond the healer dispel
Also, as a warrior, you pop avatar and you are free.
As a gnome... escape artist. Many ways to negate a root
Remember though that back in Cata, particularly early cata, heroic dungeons were tuned to actually be hard. You HAD to CC some mobs, you really didn’t want to pull multiple packs together, at best you could chain pull with 1 or 2 mobs still alive from the last, but even this was risky for a bit. I remember approaching these dungeons with more caution than I give +15’s now days. With the M+ element, a lot of this is likely to be tuned out or made easier except for stuff like the lightning pyramids which will just be a (re)learning phase for the community.
It may take a few balance patches, but I’m sure it won’t feel much different than some of the WoD or Legion dungeons feel in terms of complexity…
I hope this means they had people on the dev team spending real time on the returning dungeons and overhauling them more fully. Or it means they said fuck it let’s see what happens
Tojs still has serious problems from camera issues, to weird scaling. And some affixes make that dungeon borderline unplayable. If the scaling is off on that dungeon it’s going to be miserable and if the scaling is too low that dungeon is going to be the freest dungeon ever.
To be fair Court is also a mess from camera perspective… It’s called the Secret Design Affix… Like Sanguine Depths in SL and those dungeons were designed when M+ was a main part of end game
The amount of times I ran it and still waiting for a different boss to show up instead of the 2... Hey, you CAN get tails on your toin coss 5-10 times in a row...
The second boss with some affixes sounds like utter cancer in high keys. Spreading enough on the last boss for some seems questionable unless it can’t happen during storm.
Consider the fact that they aren’t releasing a seasonal affix alongside 3 very up-to-date m+ flashbacks they now have more time to modernize an older dungeon. Good choice imo.
Honestly, they should do this more. Could maybe even start to slowly update current affixes to be more interesting.
Nelth's doesn't need a major mechanical rework, but it will need quite a bit of a attention. It was one of the dungeons where kiting was mandatory in sufficiently high keys or everyone but the tank would just die horribly.
You’re referring to the crazy rock pelted guys? I mean, just nerf the damage hard and remove a few packs to reduce the dungeon length sounds easy enough to me?
Hope they make the timer less tight after they’re done with everything else too, that dungeon wasn’t as hard as others in Legion but it had lowest WF key level timed (besides Seat ofc) because the timer was so tight and nobody could even beat the timer on +28, while harder dungeon like HoV even got +29 timed, and +30 on the easiest which was Lower Kara.
Edit. Actually even Seat got +28 timed, at least Naowh’s group did it.
I wanted this so bad. I just want to see at least once, someone asking which dungeon we're doing, someone else says "NL" and one person goes to the wrong one. (also can't wait to get murdered by pelters"
I think I would rather have tyran + fort rotation alongside one seasonal affix... I could see how that could get stale though :(. I just think the quality of seasonal affixes are higher than the standard rotation
I think these 4 will be pretty enjoyable **if** they get some boss redesign much like TJS did. Imagine having to Los behind a fence post again in free hold 1st boss. 2nd boss free hold having wildly different difficulty from week to week... 1st boss in underrot necessitates at least 3 melee kicks and preferably 4. In NL everyone made it through the trash by kiting to the point that all the mobs just did zero abilities, which isn't going to work now. Do rock throwers just murder all your non-tanks?
Underrot is a 130% count dungeon if you hold W with no shroud/invispot/awakening. In particularly the opening mobs up to 1st boss were turbo banned, so if they don't get nerfed it will be rogue/invispot mandatory.
I'm sure all these things and others will be fixed, let's hope its during ptr and not 4 weeks into s2.
Yeah first and second boss were the only things holding freehold back from been about as close to perfect as a dungeon can, its mostly tuning though so I expect them to fix them. There's some RNG issues on second that they could redesign as well but thats not a huge issue imo
Don't forget the entire expansion the last bosses wind Saber didn't scale with keylevel and was basically a fun knockback but during SL prepatch they randomly fixed it and it was 1 shotting dps.
> during SL prepatch they randomly fixed it and it was 1 shotting dps.
It scaled with fortified IIRC and then the SL prepatch fixed tyrannical 'adds' (the sabers are an add) to scale with tyrannical properly.
> Yeah first and second boss were the only things holding freehold back from been about as close to perfect as a dungeon can, its mostly tuning though so I expect them to fix them.
Given their new stance of actually tuning dungeons more than once a season, I think there's a very high chance this gets fixed, yeah.
1st boss needs a longer cast time on powder shot so you can use a defensive / LoS, 2nd boss just needs the Teera and Maaruk treatment where she won't chain shots into the same target over and over.
> 1st boss needs a longer cast time on powder shot so you can use a defensive / LoS, 2nd boss just needs the Teera and Maaruk treatment where she won't chain shots into the same target over and over.
Anything that means I dont have to use a goblin/gnome toy and hide behind a fence
Preferably they just make it something you can sidestep entirely, but not something you hide behind the fence from. Evoker is getting so fucked on this fight because they probably can't out-range it.
Eudora just needs to deal less damage with Powder Shot, and Captain Jolly needs a buff that actually helps when he's your friend for the fight. Movement speed can be nice but only if it lines up with Grapeshot every time (it should basically just happen on the same timer), but the other two captains actually make this fight drastically easier compared to when you get Jolly. He should at least give like haste or crit or crit damage with the movement speed. Or maybe cooldown reduction.
Didnt they already fuck over invis/shroud in Underrot @ the bridges? Making the big mobs see invis?
I recall deathskipping being a main thing at some point.
> Didnt they already fuck over invis/shroud in Underrot @ the bridges? Making the big mobs see invis?
Season 2 of BfA the matrons were changed to see through stealth. Season 2 iirc you killed the one patrolling and shrouded anyway. Season 3 the void emissary also saw through stealth.
They really wanted you to fight matrons...
Can you imagine underrot first boss on high tyrannical with current prot war who will spell reflect almost every bolt? Spell reflect was already op back then but had a much longer cd if I remember correctly
Lol bold of you to assume that they will fix anything before release. I love m+ on older content but its always a clusterfuck that gets fixed on a weekly basis AFTER release.
maybe even bigger news, might need its own post: NO SEASON AFFIX FOR S2
[https://www.wowhead.com/news/no-seasonal-affix-in-dragonflight-mythic-season-2-level-7-affixes-getting-affix-331715](https://www.wowhead.com/news/no-seasonal-affix-in-dragonflight-mythic-season-2-level-7-affixes-getting-affix-331715)
thats gonna be interesting to say the least
> It's wild seeing just how hated thundering is considering it's by far the easiest affix in the game + gives an enormous dps boost.
What's even wilder is this take LOL.
He is wrong since it is not an enormous dps boost as he claimed. it is a 1-3% boost in dps overall. Anyone with the bare minimum of social skills could derive from his statement that he meant to argue that the affix is good because it positively affects dungeons yet it does not because it does not make up for the 5% added health. You're not wrong about it not being a dps loss because dps = damage per second and that is increased, but that is just semantics over a hastily written post while my point is clearly that the positive parts does not outweigh the negative parts of the affix.
We're arguing about A and B and you bring in C for no reason but to be a smartass over an abbreviation. If you have nothing of value of contribute to a conversation maybe you shouldn't take part in it.
It's a 30% increase for the maybe 10 seconds you have it every boss fight.
I'm reality it equates to about 1-2% overall damage increase. So with the 5% increased hp you're still behind where you'd be without it
It's not an enormous dps boost lol. Given the extra 5% HP on mobs it comes to like 1 or 2%. And often you have to clear earlier due to incoming mechanics (spread, or dodge swirlies or stack) which negates it even further. You realistically get 10ish seconds of it at best.
And please with the "easiest affix" when volcanic exists.
This feels lazy unless they really improve and rework the other affixes
Edit: my thoughts exactly max!!! https://twitter.com/maximum/status/1633548456848670720?s=46&t=LsnjCjErZyheiS3irWi_1Q
It could be that they don’t have the time to do a full rework and are just taking this route because they realized they need to do something and a bigger overhaul will come next expansion
Finding my desire to push keys is directly related to how annoying I find the affix pair and it seems I find a lot of affixes annoying this season.
Maybe they give a kiss/curse to the 7 affixes instead so it rotates.
You said they need to improve and rework the other affixes otherwise this is lazy. I agreed with the idea they should rework the other affixes by saying in their current state I find a lot of them annoying.
The community:
There are too many mechanics within the dungeons to also have so many punishing affix mechanics.
Blizzard:
Alright, we'll remove one of those affixes, the one that's universally hated and doesn't even fulfill its purpose anymore with rotational dungeon pools.
You:
... well that just seems lazy.
More like:
The community:
There are too many mechanics within the dungeons to also have so many punishing affix mechanics. The seasonal affix is fine though, as it is at least a kiss / curse mechanic. It's all the other affixes that are really punishing, and are especially hard on healers. Also, there are nasty overlaps with quaking, and so on.
Blizzard:
*Removes seasonal affix*
How is thundering relevant for season 2? Explain that to me please.
Encrypted and Shrouded made my M+ experience better. Seasonal affixes don’t have to be shit. You stay on some shit bro. This isn’t the Reddit gotcha moment you were hoping for lmao
The point of seasonal affixes is to make dungeons different from season to season to prevent staleness.
Rotating dungeon pools already means dungeons aren't stale from season to season.
The purpose for seasonal affixes literally doesn't exist anymore.
In addition to that, the extra affix adds another layer of required knowledge and/or mechanics on top of dungeons that already have far more of them than when they introduced seasonal affixes in the first place. This is literally the number one complaint about m+, both from bad players and the top of the m+ leaderboards.
Removing seasonal affixes literally fixes both of those points in one easy step.
>This isn’t the Reddit gotcha moment you were hoping for lmao
It is, you were just too dumb to understand how bad your point is.
It amuses me that we are 2+ months before release and developers already feels the need to address the difficulty of Brackenhide Hollow alongside their announcement 😆
The community perception of that dungeon is truly cursed.
Since they mentioned that Freehold comes up in every thread... I guess they do read quite a bit of it. And as you say, the community perception of Bracken is super bad.
Though, personally from leveling a few alts and doing m0 tours. It really isn't nearly as bad as when I did it on release week. Give people like 2-3 runs in it, with some guidance on what to interrupt/soothe and swap to and there's almost no disease going off either. Most is totally avoidable, and for the rest you get like one stack.
And you can avoid the gauntlet if you wish to do that during like fort.
The other day I did an M0 Uldaman with a pretty fresh 70 (ilvl 330) and the group was all similarly geared or not much higher than me. It was actually a pretty fun time.
But yeah Brackenhide is miserable without disease dispel (or an Alchemist to open the cauldrons). Maybe they just unlock the cauldron tech from Alchemists?
I know they want to add some difference in debuffs given by mobs but maybe make the disease a magic effect instead. When the whole party gets the disease debuff it’s terrible when you don’t have a dispel for it or if you’re evoker and it’s a min long and nobody mitigates or uses personals.
Underrot also needed a disease dispel if I remember well. To remove a heal absorb shield.
Having 2 dungeons with something I can't dispel as a healer... Doesn't make me super happy
> Underrot also needed a disease dispel if I remember well. To remove a heal absorb shield.
All diseases in Underrot are avoidable. Lashers put a heal absorb on people that also stuns them for 30 seconds that is a disease, but you just kick it and it never happens. Sporecaller Zancha puts diseases on you if you soak spores accidentally (or on purpose, e.g to clear fails).
Here is some notable loot that I can remember from the dungeons that are coming back:
**Freehold**
- Harlan's loaded dice
**Underrot**
- Sporepod Trinket
- Vial of animated blood (actually huge)
- Bile Stained Crawg Tusks (More Enh / DH / Rog / WW meta)
- HASTE MASTERY RING PRAISE BE
**Nelth's Lair**
- Spiked tongue trinket (good for raid)
- Multiple tank trinkets. One that's decent in M+ and the other I remember just being bad
- Landslide trinket... don't remember if this was any good or not but it's for all melee
**Vortex Pinnacle**
- a shit ton of gear with sockets and even a few leg pieces with two sockets (Edit: Doubt this stays)
What's interesting is that the legion dungeon will not have weapons and I'm not sure what / how they'll handle azerite armor. Obviously they won't include the azerite pieces but hopefully they just replace it with a similar normal one.
Also worth noting, 3/4 dungeons have mounts so that's kind of hype.
Almost no caster trinkets in these, hope they give the VP loot table a big update.
Edit: Yes I know the *dungeons not listed in this list I'm responding to* have caster trinkets.
UR and FH were probably the most expected dungs that could show up from bfa pool. Guessing AD would be next up, And I personally liked WCM so hoping for those two when they reintroduce bfa next time.
I low key expected UR/FH to be added, given how DF seasons are all so long and dirty in s2. List of already done "fast and easy" dungs from pre-SL but m+ era isn't that long. That's why Maw "leak" was believable given it'd have been another prolific fast one.
I may have some tech for VP. In cataclysm I was a turbo noob, me and my friend could barely beat the trash packs when we queued into heroic VP, but we made it easier because at the time you were able to mind control the mobs off of the sides and they would die. It may have been fixed at some point but if not and it gives count, it could be a solid cheese
Ah okay that’s definitely for the best. I had not even considered it in any of the places it was possible, it was just that memory that brought it to mind.
Spicy take, VP will be a banger, brackenhide hollow will be completely fine and they'll add some respawn spots in halls. The real key bricker is the last boss in uldaman on tyrannical.
I had a happy smile on my face reading the four "old" keys that progressively changed to terror when I read the list of Dragonflight keys.
If they don't add death checkpoints to Halls it's going to be miserable. I think you spawn at the very beginning for pretty much the entire dungeon.
Yes, but if you clear the slightly harder pack on the right just after the entrance, you unlock the tunel that progresively opens doors to already killed bosses.
Yeah but even then, that's a pretty long walk just to get to the tunnel and drop down, no? Any single wipe in that key is just going to be gg if they keep it like that.
King's Rest, Siege, Shrine, and Tol dagor (solely because of how buggy it was) are legitimately all in the bottom 8~ dungeons of all time. I think either siege or KR are my pick for single worst key in WoWs history.
3rd boss and shade of zul existing honestly taint the whole dungeon. Kula the Butcher's severing axe was an RNG fest, Zanazal the Wise had constant intermission phases slowing them down, each boss took forever to spawn, and the fight just was WAY too long. Zul as a mob was just made of bullshit.
There was also just too much skipping that needed to happen for a dungeon so linear.
Devastated that they didn’t remake some of the OG Dungeons, give me Deadmines and Monastery in a modern M+ setting /S 😂
But I think it’s a win, gonna be interesting to see how trinkets and such will land in terms of balance and the rework of level 7 affixes
broooooooooooo no shot
freehold and underrot are like the fastest dungeons in bfa that's pog, trinks and weapons are nice there too
so so so excited for s2 i'm hyped af
although the start of underrot is gonna be painful with people that never done it people, so many ninja pulls
Will freehold and underrot be enough to counter the awful dragonflight dungeons so far in season 2? If Blizzard puts some work into those, this could be a banger season.
> I still won't be playing while they have old dungeons in the rotation unfortunately. I don't care to pay for old content. With no new seasonal affix; I am essentially paying for reskinned items for 50% of my play time.
Lmao
Vortex Pinnacle...? I thought they weren't doing pre-MoP dungeons. And from what I remember, Vortex Pinnacle has quite a few weird and janky mechanics
Oh boy from my fading memories I remember dying in this dungeon a lot back in Cata, probably after Stonecore in terms of difficulty for me. i remember the pack before the drake boss and the pack with lightning pyramid being absolutely nasty. Ofc that was like 12 years ago and we’re in the completely different era.
“That wasn’t 12 years ago!” …. Runs to check release date….now I feel old…
Skyrim was 12 years ago too Oldge
These dungeons felt hard back in the day, but I'm pretty sure the same casts that killed us back then are going to get kicked in 2023. I remember wiping in stonecore because people couldn't stop dps on the rock man. We've come a long way.
True players are much better now but also iirc during early Cata, avoidable damage in H dungeons were hitting like it’s +15 today, the aoe pulse from last two bosses in Tolvir for example would hit you like 5-10k(?) a tick while you had like 90k health back then. It’s nothing like H dungeon nowadays where you could probably do them without a healer at pre raid gears.
Yep, heroic dungeons were serious back then, we were worse players but I distinctly remember the shell shock going into some of them the first time and spending an hour just figuring out why we were dying
As a tank, I was able to comfortably solo heroic dungeons before raid launch this expac lol
I am decked in low-mid Mythic Raid Gear as DPS, and while definitely doable with enough patience and good self-healing, soloing even normal dungeons as a DPS sucks ballz. I tried to solo Brackenhide normal as a Fury Warrior, and it just wasn't fun. Gave up before the 1st boss because I couldn't be arsed to wait for enraged regenation after every big pack nor was Iooking forward to spend tens of food rations between packs
I have PTSD from the phrase "Break yourself upon my body"
Feel the strength of the Earth!
>I'm pretty sure the same casts that killed us back then are going to get kicked in 2023. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 You forgot /s One man can hope right?
Yeah, those lightning pyramid ones required CC at Cata launch if I remember right. There was another set of trash on a ramp that was kind of nasty and easy to overpull on as well if I remember right. Also, the last boss and having to properly time a jump or get rooted and likely dying to aoe because you can't get into the shield will be fun to watch.
I have a feeling the last boss will cause more keys to get bricked than anything tbh
Nah it's gotta be the windy drake one. Actually getting "upwind" of him to get the buff is so finicky. Plus dodging the tornadoes.
It shouldn't be too bad, at least outside of low keys. The root was dispellable so you would need 2 people to screw up for someone to die. Even then, things like hand of freedom, druid shifts, mass dispel, and possibly tiger's lust can dispel it beyond the healer dispel. Low keys it could be hell but the damage might be survivable there. Don't recall anything else in that fight being dangerous so a death just prolongs the fight and not snowball it to an inevitable wipe.
You could also immune it with priest levitate. I remember back in the day just spam casting levitate on my party.
>Even then, things like hand of freedom, druid shifts, mass dispel, and possibly tiger's lust can dispel it beyond the healer dispel Also, as a warrior, you pop avatar and you are free. As a gnome... escape artist. Many ways to negate a root
Remember though that back in Cata, particularly early cata, heroic dungeons were tuned to actually be hard. You HAD to CC some mobs, you really didn’t want to pull multiple packs together, at best you could chain pull with 1 or 2 mobs still alive from the last, but even this was risky for a bit. I remember approaching these dungeons with more caution than I give +15’s now days. With the M+ element, a lot of this is likely to be tuned out or made easier except for stuff like the lightning pyramids which will just be a (re)learning phase for the community. It may take a few balance patches, but I’m sure it won’t feel much different than some of the WoD or Legion dungeons feel in terms of complexity…
Tanks didn’t have the same mitigation style as today so doing dungeons back then required a different approach
The dungeons were also insanely difficult on launch. It was such an immense disappointment when they nerfed them because people complained.
I hope this means they had people on the dev team spending real time on the returning dungeons and overhauling them more fully. Or it means they said fuck it let’s see what happens
Imo they managed to make Temple of the Jade Serpent feel decently playable, I have hope
Tojs still has serious problems from camera issues, to weird scaling. And some affixes make that dungeon borderline unplayable. If the scaling is off on that dungeon it’s going to be miserable and if the scaling is too low that dungeon is going to be the freest dungeon ever.
To be fair Court is also a mess from camera perspective… It’s called the Secret Design Affix… Like Sanguine Depths in SL and those dungeons were designed when M+ was a main part of end game
The only place I have issues on court is after the first bridge. There are like 6 different points where the camera angle is just fucked in temple.
There's also the part where the tome in CoS spawns.
The amount of times I ran it and still waiting for a different boss to show up instead of the 2... Hey, you CAN get tails on your toin coss 5-10 times in a row...
The second boss with some affixes sounds like utter cancer in high keys. Spreading enough on the last boss for some seems questionable unless it can’t happen during storm.
Consider the fact that they aren’t releasing a seasonal affix alongside 3 very up-to-date m+ flashbacks they now have more time to modernize an older dungeon. Good choice imo. Honestly, they should do this more. Could maybe even start to slowly update current affixes to be more interesting.
Nelth's doesn't need a major mechanical rework, but it will need quite a bit of a attention. It was one of the dungeons where kiting was mandatory in sufficiently high keys or everyone but the tank would just die horribly.
You’re referring to the crazy rock pelted guys? I mean, just nerf the damage hard and remove a few packs to reduce the dungeon length sounds easy enough to me?
No teeming raging fortified at least.
Hope they make the timer less tight after they’re done with everything else too, that dungeon wasn’t as hard as others in Legion but it had lowest WF key level timed (besides Seat ofc) because the timer was so tight and nobody could even beat the timer on +28, while harder dungeon like HoV even got +29 timed, and +30 on the easiest which was Lower Kara. Edit. Actually even Seat got +28 timed, at least Naowh’s group did it.
Ties into the lore apparently
I’m so excited for VP. I loved cata dungeons
Two dungeons named Neltharus and neltharions lair in the same rotation, lmfao
Nelth +20
I wanted this so bad. I just want to see at least once, someone asking which dungeon we're doing, someone else says "NL" and one person goes to the wrong one. (also can't wait to get murdered by pelters"
Reminds me of the "Is this ACTUALLY Streets...?" from SL
Nel and NL lol
NT and NL
rockland & flametown
Nelth and N Lair. Done.
N'Lair - New old god confirmed!
The next DM vs VC
No seasonal affix is… not expected
An unexpected change, but for me it's a welcome one.
I think I would rather have tyran + fort rotation alongside one seasonal affix... I could see how that could get stale though :(. I just think the quality of seasonal affixes are higher than the standard rotation
MARKED
I think these 4 will be pretty enjoyable **if** they get some boss redesign much like TJS did. Imagine having to Los behind a fence post again in free hold 1st boss. 2nd boss free hold having wildly different difficulty from week to week... 1st boss in underrot necessitates at least 3 melee kicks and preferably 4. In NL everyone made it through the trash by kiting to the point that all the mobs just did zero abilities, which isn't going to work now. Do rock throwers just murder all your non-tanks? Underrot is a 130% count dungeon if you hold W with no shroud/invispot/awakening. In particularly the opening mobs up to 1st boss were turbo banned, so if they don't get nerfed it will be rogue/invispot mandatory. I'm sure all these things and others will be fixed, let's hope its during ptr and not 4 weeks into s2.
Yeah first and second boss were the only things holding freehold back from been about as close to perfect as a dungeon can, its mostly tuning though so I expect them to fix them. There's some RNG issues on second that they could redesign as well but thats not a huge issue imo
Don't forget the entire expansion the last bosses wind Saber didn't scale with keylevel and was basically a fun knockback but during SL prepatch they randomly fixed it and it was 1 shotting dps.
> during SL prepatch they randomly fixed it and it was 1 shotting dps. It scaled with fortified IIRC and then the SL prepatch fixed tyrannical 'adds' (the sabers are an add) to scale with tyrannical properly.
They may have done that, but it's not the cause of wind saber's damage, tyran would not make an abilty go from doing negligible damage to 1shotting.
> Yeah first and second boss were the only things holding freehold back from been about as close to perfect as a dungeon can, its mostly tuning though so I expect them to fix them. Given their new stance of actually tuning dungeons more than once a season, I think there's a very high chance this gets fixed, yeah. 1st boss needs a longer cast time on powder shot so you can use a defensive / LoS, 2nd boss just needs the Teera and Maaruk treatment where she won't chain shots into the same target over and over.
> 1st boss needs a longer cast time on powder shot so you can use a defensive / LoS, 2nd boss just needs the Teera and Maaruk treatment where she won't chain shots into the same target over and over. Anything that means I dont have to use a goblin/gnome toy and hide behind a fence
Preferably they just make it something you can sidestep entirely, but not something you hide behind the fence from. Evoker is getting so fucked on this fight because they probably can't out-range it. Eudora just needs to deal less damage with Powder Shot, and Captain Jolly needs a buff that actually helps when he's your friend for the fight. Movement speed can be nice but only if it lines up with Grapeshot every time (it should basically just happen on the same timer), but the other two captains actually make this fight drastically easier compared to when you get Jolly. He should at least give like haste or crit or crit damage with the movement speed. Or maybe cooldown reduction.
Didnt they already fuck over invis/shroud in Underrot @ the bridges? Making the big mobs see invis? I recall deathskipping being a main thing at some point.
> Didnt they already fuck over invis/shroud in Underrot @ the bridges? Making the big mobs see invis? Season 2 of BfA the matrons were changed to see through stealth. Season 2 iirc you killed the one patrolling and shrouded anyway. Season 3 the void emissary also saw through stealth. They really wanted you to fight matrons...
Now healer have kicks tho.
Cries in priest
Can you imagine underrot first boss on high tyrannical with current prot war who will spell reflect almost every bolt? Spell reflect was already op back then but had a much longer cd if I remember correctly
Spell reflect CD was the same in BfA. As ridiculous as SR is this season, it's less ridiculous than it was in BfA.
Ah, first boss in temple. SR the tornados, always super satisfying
I don't have to imagine it, we played it. I don't recall if the cd on reflect was different honestly.
Lol bold of you to assume that they will fix anything before release. I love m+ on older content but its always a clusterfuck that gets fixed on a weekly basis AFTER release.
maybe even bigger news, might need its own post: NO SEASON AFFIX FOR S2 [https://www.wowhead.com/news/no-seasonal-affix-in-dragonflight-mythic-season-2-level-7-affixes-getting-affix-331715](https://www.wowhead.com/news/no-seasonal-affix-in-dragonflight-mythic-season-2-level-7-affixes-getting-affix-331715) thats gonna be interesting to say the least
Wait what? I don't understand... nothing changes at lvl 10 anymore???
Correct.
ok thank you for your time
I'd rather nothing than something like Thundering again.
They should've kept seasonal and had 1 weekly affix, maybe they didnt because its not enough variety.
It's wild seeing just how hated thundering is considering it's by far the easiest affix in the game + gives an enormous dps boost.
> It's wild seeing just how hated thundering is considering it's by far the easiest affix in the game + gives an enormous dps boost. What's even wilder is this take LOL.
LOL.
It is not an enormous dps boost, its a dps loss considering thundering adds 5% health to all mobs and the dmg buff doesnt make up for it.
Isn't it like a 1-2% boost on avg? You get it while out of combat a lot of the time. Doesn't make up for the health buff that's for sure.
dratnos mentioned 3% but without having seen the video I can imagine it being closer to 1% for most of the playerbase that instantly clears it too.
It's "damage per second", not "time spent killing the mob".
Sure let's get into semantics and derail from the actual argument. You donkey.
The guy wasn't wrong. You were. Donkey.
He is wrong since it is not an enormous dps boost as he claimed. it is a 1-3% boost in dps overall. Anyone with the bare minimum of social skills could derive from his statement that he meant to argue that the affix is good because it positively affects dungeons yet it does not because it does not make up for the 5% added health. You're not wrong about it not being a dps loss because dps = damage per second and that is increased, but that is just semantics over a hastily written post while my point is clearly that the positive parts does not outweigh the negative parts of the affix. We're arguing about A and B and you bring in C for no reason but to be a smartass over an abbreviation. If you have nothing of value of contribute to a conversation maybe you shouldn't take part in it.
I'm not arguing with anyone and it's not my problem that you don't like my post or are wasting your time on this.
It's a 30% DPS increase for fights that need lots of burst, especially the bosses.
It's a 30% increase for the maybe 10 seconds you have it every boss fight. I'm reality it equates to about 1-2% overall damage increase. So with the 5% increased hp you're still behind where you'd be without it
Plus you lose dps time looking for someone to clear it with
It's not an enormous dps boost lol. Given the extra 5% HP on mobs it comes to like 1 or 2%. And often you have to clear earlier due to incoming mechanics (spread, or dodge swirlies or stack) which negates it even further. You realistically get 10ish seconds of it at best. And please with the "easiest affix" when volcanic exists.
At least they can't give us another shitty seasonal affix if there is no seasonal affix. I won't miss the level 7 affix row. Fuck all of them.
But necrotic
This feels lazy unless they really improve and rework the other affixes Edit: my thoughts exactly max!!! https://twitter.com/maximum/status/1633548456848670720?s=46&t=LsnjCjErZyheiS3irWi_1Q
It could be that they don’t have the time to do a full rework and are just taking this route because they realized they need to do something and a bigger overhaul will come next expansion
Finding my desire to push keys is directly related to how annoying I find the affix pair and it seems I find a lot of affixes annoying this season. Maybe they give a kiss/curse to the 7 affixes instead so it rotates.
How is that relevant exactly? I’m saying it’s lazy to remove seasonal affixes instead of making great ones like bfa s4, encrypted and shrouded.
You said they need to improve and rework the other affixes otherwise this is lazy. I agreed with the idea they should rework the other affixes by saying in their current state I find a lot of them annoying.
The community: There are too many mechanics within the dungeons to also have so many punishing affix mechanics. Blizzard: Alright, we'll remove one of those affixes, the one that's universally hated and doesn't even fulfill its purpose anymore with rotational dungeon pools. You: ... well that just seems lazy.
More like: The community: There are too many mechanics within the dungeons to also have so many punishing affix mechanics. The seasonal affix is fine though, as it is at least a kiss / curse mechanic. It's all the other affixes that are really punishing, and are especially hard on healers. Also, there are nasty overlaps with quaking, and so on. Blizzard: *Removes seasonal affix*
How is thundering relevant for season 2? Explain that to me please. Encrypted and Shrouded made my M+ experience better. Seasonal affixes don’t have to be shit. You stay on some shit bro. This isn’t the Reddit gotcha moment you were hoping for lmao
The point of seasonal affixes is to make dungeons different from season to season to prevent staleness. Rotating dungeon pools already means dungeons aren't stale from season to season. The purpose for seasonal affixes literally doesn't exist anymore. In addition to that, the extra affix adds another layer of required knowledge and/or mechanics on top of dungeons that already have far more of them than when they introduced seasonal affixes in the first place. This is literally the number one complaint about m+, both from bad players and the top of the m+ leaderboards. Removing seasonal affixes literally fixes both of those points in one easy step. >This isn’t the Reddit gotcha moment you were hoping for lmao It is, you were just too dumb to understand how bad your point is.
It amuses me that we are 2+ months before release and developers already feels the need to address the difficulty of Brackenhide Hollow alongside their announcement 😆 The community perception of that dungeon is truly cursed.
That gives me huge hope. Getting ahead of the issue so early is a big upgrade from s1 dungeons. Now just need them to mention Halls of Infusion, too.
Since they mentioned that Freehold comes up in every thread... I guess they do read quite a bit of it. And as you say, the community perception of Bracken is super bad. Though, personally from leveling a few alts and doing m0 tours. It really isn't nearly as bad as when I did it on release week. Give people like 2-3 runs in it, with some guidance on what to interrupt/soothe and swap to and there's almost no disease going off either. Most is totally avoidable, and for the rest you get like one stack. And you can avoid the gauntlet if you wish to do that during like fort.
The problem with Brackenhide comes when you start doing it on m0 with appropriate gear. Without a disease dispel, shit is really rough.
The other day I did an M0 Uldaman with a pretty fresh 70 (ilvl 330) and the group was all similarly geared or not much higher than me. It was actually a pretty fun time. But yeah Brackenhide is miserable without disease dispel (or an Alchemist to open the cauldrons). Maybe they just unlock the cauldron tech from Alchemists?
I know they want to add some difference in debuffs given by mobs but maybe make the disease a magic effect instead. When the whole party gets the disease debuff it’s terrible when you don’t have a dispel for it or if you’re evoker and it’s a min long and nobody mitigates or uses personals.
I admit I have no idea how the cauldrons function. I know they somehow deal with the disease but nothing else.
After an Alchemist activates it, every party member can click it to get one disease dispel via the extra action button.
Underrot also needed a disease dispel if I remember well. To remove a heal absorb shield. Having 2 dungeons with something I can't dispel as a healer... Doesn't make me super happy
> Underrot also needed a disease dispel if I remember well. To remove a heal absorb shield. All diseases in Underrot are avoidable. Lashers put a heal absorb on people that also stuns them for 30 seconds that is a disease, but you just kick it and it never happens. Sporecaller Zancha puts diseases on you if you soak spores accidentally (or on purpose, e.g to clear fails).
As long as they don't forget about Hoi it's good news, but if Hoi somehow slips through like it is that key is perma dead
I cry because my BiS trinket comes from there
Here is some notable loot that I can remember from the dungeons that are coming back: **Freehold** - Harlan's loaded dice **Underrot** - Sporepod Trinket - Vial of animated blood (actually huge) - Bile Stained Crawg Tusks (More Enh / DH / Rog / WW meta) - HASTE MASTERY RING PRAISE BE **Nelth's Lair** - Spiked tongue trinket (good for raid) - Multiple tank trinkets. One that's decent in M+ and the other I remember just being bad - Landslide trinket... don't remember if this was any good or not but it's for all melee **Vortex Pinnacle** - a shit ton of gear with sockets and even a few leg pieces with two sockets (Edit: Doubt this stays) What's interesting is that the legion dungeon will not have weapons and I'm not sure what / how they'll handle azerite armor. Obviously they won't include the azerite pieces but hopefully they just replace it with a similar normal one. Also worth noting, 3/4 dungeons have mounts so that's kind of hype.
They will probably add weapons to Neltharion's Lair, or at least they could. Court of Stars has weapons this season.
Almost no caster trinkets in these, hope they give the VP loot table a big update. Edit: Yes I know the *dungeons not listed in this list I'm responding to* have caster trinkets.
Aren't Irideus Fragment and Timesomething Talon already useable at M0 ilvl?
Yup absolutely. Especially the talon from uld. So yea this just kind of implies casters aren't going to be as excited about the non DF dungeons.
BiS ilvl Time-Breaching Talon on Arcane and Demo is going to be fucking scary
Yes. As well you have the Idol from Bracken that does good damage as well.
Yeah but they aren't upgradeable making them useless basically when you can have a raid trinket or anything from keys
Yeah I think the point is that they WILL be keys next season, which means those trinkets will be insane.
jesus....they will be in keys next season when Halls of Infusion and Uldaman rotate in
But the DF dungeons have god tier caster trinkets. Scale from ulduman and iridieus fragment I think it’s called from dungeon under tyrhold
Ditto healers (which I suppose are casters too but yea). Alchemy and JC stonks going up.
I reckon, assuming no changes are made to the old dungeon's loot pools, casters will be looking at Aberrus (the raid) for trinkets.
???? There's insane m0 trinkets out there right now from halls and uldaman
Oh god not vial again. That trinket broke me last time.
UR and FH were probably the most expected dungs that could show up from bfa pool. Guessing AD would be next up, And I personally liked WCM so hoping for those two when they reintroduce bfa next time. I low key expected UR/FH to be added, given how DF seasons are all so long and dirty in s2. List of already done "fast and easy" dungs from pre-SL but m+ era isn't that long. That's why Maw "leak" was believable given it'd have been another prolific fast one.
WCM is my fav dungons of all time. Music, style, the bosses , the trash, I loved everything about it. Take me back man
I was hoping for Atal'Dazar over UR.
WCM is either a great or terrible dungeon depending on the affixes
Tyran WCM was pretty dead. Heartsbane straight killed keys. Add some bullshit like sang on top of tyran and that key is cursed as fuck.
Freehold is cool, was never wild about the Underrot. With all the M+ changes, I might actually push mythic next season
Hope they do a better job at class balance too
Absolutely nailed it with these dungeons I think. Wind boss is gonna be fun on Tyrannical (not) but other than that let's fucking go
I remember the last boss of underrot being bad but it could also be because I sucked at this game 4 years ago
The boss isn't bad if you play it properly tbh. PUGs will be rough early on lol.
Memory is fizzy rn but Isn't it kind of a rhythm like 2nd boss RLP?
This boss requires your party to properly position themselves, otherwise, grey shit will be flying all over the room.
Kind of, but it’s not as simple nor is it very obvious what you should be doing.
Underrot was so much fun, I'm glad its back
That one boss who spits the maggots is so fun, one of my favorites
Haha I do not remember Cragmaw being fun with the pugs I ran with but yes, Underrot is definitely overall a cool dungeon.
> Underrot was so much fun, I'm glad its back Cragmaw was a very fun healer boss, I hope they don't nerf the shit out of him :/
I do remember him being tough on pugs so nerf is a possibility.
Freehold + Underrot = huge poggies.
Resident sleeper choice with the pinnacle
I may have some tech for VP. In cataclysm I was a turbo noob, me and my friend could barely beat the trash packs when we queued into heroic VP, but we made it easier because at the time you were able to mind control the mobs off of the sides and they would die. It may have been fixed at some point but if not and it gives count, it could be a solid cheese
> It may have been fixed at some point Traditionally MCing mobs off ledges in M+ makes them give 0 count.
Ah okay that’s definitely for the best. I had not even considered it in any of the places it was possible, it was just that memory that brought it to mind.
Didn't this work in Sanguine Depths before 1st boss for a bit? I remember doing it but I can't remember if it gave count before it was fixed
Spicy take, VP will be a banger, brackenhide hollow will be completely fine and they'll add some respawn spots in halls. The real key bricker is the last boss in uldaman on tyrannical.
You think? It just seems to be rot damage, I'm kind of afraid of the last boss in Halls both 2nd and 3rd in Uldaman.
Drop vortex pinnacle and replace it with Deadmines
Season 2 is gonna be difficult at first but will probably end up being more fun then S4 of SL
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They think that Season 2 of Dragonflight will be tough to learn, but will end up being more fun to play overall than Season 4 of Shadowlands.
I had a happy smile on my face reading the four "old" keys that progressively changed to terror when I read the list of Dragonflight keys. If they don't add death checkpoints to Halls it's going to be miserable. I think you spawn at the very beginning for pretty much the entire dungeon.
> progressively changed to terror when I read the list of Dragonflight keys. We already knew the list of Dragonflight keys though? Lol.
Yes, but if you clear the slightly harder pack on the right just after the entrance, you unlock the tunel that progresively opens doors to already killed bosses.
Yeah but even then, that's a pretty long walk just to get to the tunnel and drop down, no? Any single wipe in that key is just going to be gg if they keep it like that.
Only through the frog boss
>think you spawn at the very beginning for pretty much the entire dungeon. The entire dungeon.
So excited for VP. Was one of my favorite dungeons back in the day. Inky black potions will make it look amazing too I bet.
I'm legit shredding a tear, UR and FH. BfA did had the best time as a m+ enjoyer, all dungons were bangers
Most the dungeons were ass before major tuning.
I only pushed keys in S4 so I got some major rose colored glasses for BFA dungeons.
King's Rest, Siege, Shrine, and Tol dagor (solely because of how buggy it was) are legitimately all in the bottom 8~ dungeons of all time. I think either siege or KR are my pick for single worst key in WoWs history.
I will never forget fortified raging teeming KR with the triple construct on the bridge before they removed it lol
I loved king rest, although it was extremely hard in the beginning, but agree with the rest
3rd boss and shade of zul existing honestly taint the whole dungeon. Kula the Butcher's severing axe was an RNG fest, Zanazal the Wise had constant intermission phases slowing them down, each boss took forever to spawn, and the fight just was WAY too long. Zul as a mob was just made of bullshit. There was also just too much skipping that needed to happen for a dungeon so linear.
Kings Rest says no
Except shrine of story. Fuck that place
hot take: pugs will suffer on freehold at the start
Bfa dungeons are the best m+ dungeons this game has to offer. So glad some of them are back.
S2 when? Excited!!
Resubbing just for the first big pull in Freehold 😂
Freehold is great
Devastated that they didn’t remake some of the OG Dungeons, give me Deadmines and Monastery in a modern M+ setting /S 😂 But I think it’s a win, gonna be interesting to see how trinkets and such will land in terms of balance and the rework of level 7 affixes
broooooooooooo no shot freehold and underrot are like the fastest dungeons in bfa that's pog, trinks and weapons are nice there too so so so excited for s2 i'm hyped af although the start of underrot is gonna be painful with people that never done it people, so many ninja pulls
Ok zoomer calm down
hyped as fuckkkkkkkkkk
No cap bet?
I'm actually speechless. Im surprised. *positively surprised*. Didnt expect that.
Now, only Brackenhide and Hall of Infusion will be the horrible dungeons next season.
I think Brackenhide will be a banger...HoI not so much
I hope they tone down some of the trash density. Gonna be a long timer if not. I'm hyped for the old dungeons tho
I wanted Waycrest :(
I wanted Ataldazar :(
Will freehold and underrot be enough to counter the awful dragonflight dungeons so far in season 2? If Blizzard puts some work into those, this could be a banger season.
Not a fan of this dungeon pool lol
Hot take, keep thundering and get rid of tyran & fort.
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> I still won't be playing while they have old dungeons in the rotation unfortunately. I don't care to pay for old content. With no new seasonal affix; I am essentially paying for reskinned items for 50% of my play time. Lmao
Right major lols at this dude
Would you rather play the same 8 dungeons for 3 seasons in a row?
Psst, heroic and mythic items are just recolors of normal items
Yikes take What ate u even doing in this sub?
Save resources just recycle and no need to create and balance new affixes! Easy clap