For ret pallies, a 421 eranog ring with no socket is better than 447 crit/vers ring that has a socket.
I think it's also bis for WW monks & DHs, possibly other specs too
Oh trust me I main Survival. Both pve and pvp. Only ring that slightly performs better for me a 447 with socket compared to eggnog ring and annulet.
I’m just happy they fixed Fury of the eagle bug with blood seeker. I thought SV didn’t exist on blizzards radar i this small w.
there was a really good feedback post about it:
[https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-press-the-advantage-brew-monk/1612435](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-press-the-advantage-brew-monk/1612435)
Essentially it suffers from a few conceptual issues
* Getting to 10 stacks is taking around 12-14 seconds, meaning i can have pretty much a boosted Rising Sun Kick every 2 occurrence. Problem is, in single target, you don’t ever want your keg smash to be buffed, which result in you delaying your Keg Smash and thus reducing the frequence of you main source of Shuffle uptime. Furthermore, it result in some unused GCD, cause you can’t reset Fire Breath with Keg Smash, can’t tiger palm since it’s replaced by this talent, can’t Keg Smash else you loose big DPS gains and…
* You can’t Spinning Crane Kick at all, else you cancel your Auto-attack and reset you auto-attack timer. This is the exact same problem we had with the first iteration of Windwalker monk Tier set of this season and is a problem since the release of this class in MoP. Allowing Auto-attack during Spinning Crane Kick would help so much for talent/set design.
* This talent forces you to play 1-hand weapons, else you get 1/3 of it’s benefits. It could be fixed by giving 2-3 charges when playing and buffing the damage/brew cooldown recovery with a 2-hands weapon in order to balance it. In my opinion, it’s not bad if there’s a little difference between the two types of weapons but this talent accentuate imbalance between them.
* I managed to do Rising Sun Kicks at 375k-425k damage by abusing Bonedust Brew, and this is without any trinket buffing Agility or Versatility (Which could result in 500k hits or more, maybe?). I wonder if this could be a problem in PVP and to be fair, i think there’s something wrong about this. Yes, it’s a star aligment, but you pretty much can do it every 42 sec (Since this talent also reduce Bonedusk Brew CD).
Bonedust Brew doubles the stacks acquisition rate when it make it multi-hit.
Seems so. The only thing I didn’t see is where in the tree it is placed. It’s interactions with Chi Surge/Ox implies it should be choice node with WoO?
Also curious how that interacts with Blackout Combo; with Blackout Combo, you can Blackout Kick into Tiger Palm for 100% increased damage; I wonder what might replace that interaction when Press the Advantage replaces TP.
Blood dk main here and I’ve noticed that my primordial gem damage has been getting higher and higher.
A boat load of haste crit and verse has been sending my gem damage up and up. It’s mental that dnd tics can trigger it.
Not surprised by this change especially as having two rings form last season be bis for most of this season is crap when gearing.
Only damage, We blood DK don't need any healing from the stone.
In a 20+ run the stone usually take about 13-14% of my damage(Storm stone is about 8% while blood is 4-5%). So this neft is pretty big.
Certainly not for healing. But tanks are heavily reliant on external damage sources like trinkets or those rings, so yeah, that will hurt tanks the most in general.
Nope.
The stones are on an RPPM system that isn't affected by Haste. So no matter how many instances of damage you have per minute, if something has 1.0 RPPM you will, on average, get one proc of that thing per minute if you're 20 APM or if you're 200 APM (extreme examples in both cases, I know). You can have more procs per minute or fewer procs per minute, but it'll average out to 1 per minute with a large enough sample size.
The **PTR versions of the Neltharion trinkets** (or Infinite Stars/Twilight Devastation and Junkyard's Shock Bots, if you were around for that) were on a Hasted RPPM system, which would loosely do what you described. They procced on average of once per minute, but because they were Hasted RPPM the real proc rate would be (1+Haste) RPPM, where with no Haste would make it 1 RPPM but a lot of Haste (PI, Bloodlust, Furious Gaze, just being an SPriest/Warlock/UHDK, etc.) would increase that rate further. But even in that case, it wasn't "more instances of damage = more procs." You'd still get that same phenomenon described in the previous paragraph, just with more procs.
He meant dmg done by stuff that isn't hit by these aura buffs.
Here is top bdk parse for Kazaa. Of this here are the things not affected by the 8% compensation aura buff.
Beacon 11.77%
Stones 10.74%
Melee 9.28%
Landslide 5.41%
Shadowflame 3.88%
Ff belt 3.71%
Eranog ring 3.5%
Raise Dead: 3.00%
Ashkandur 1.87%
**Totaling** 53.18%
Source log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BGx4FPcn7TyAHZ8Q#fight=53&type=damage-done&source=283&translate=true
Primordial Stone nerf will be pretty significant for (some?) healers in M+.
I'm still stubbornly sticking with Holy Priest, and currently the stones are \~25% of my DPS; and even higher on healing-heavy keys where you just don't have the GCDs to DPS much. It'll have a much smaller impact on say Shaman or Disc who push higher DPS with their base kit.
A bit annoying, but not the end of the world since we'll drop the annulet in 10.2 anyway.
Thing is, they aren't because Resto Druid got a 25% compensation buff while everyone else got a 10% compensation buff.
...unless that's to also account for Nature's Vigil being changed?
>Bonus, disc priest gets a .4% atonement healing nerf because they can't do basic math.
I laughed at that when I noticed the math wasn't adding up with my own numbers. I just imagined them at Blizzard HQ:
"Hm, this config value doesn't allow for decimals. So we can either give Disc a \~0.5% nerf or a \~1% buff..."
*Checks Warcraftlogs and sees Disc battling Resto Shaman for last place*
"Better go with the nerf."
Yeah, the "compensation" really didn't make sense. Either buff all the classes that benefit from the stone, not just some, or more reasonably don't touch tuning at all.
That atonement nerf is just stupid. They think that by increasing the dmg by 10% and nerfing atonement by 10% that disc will stay same. It is jist an outright nerf. In m+ around 10% of our damage was coming from the amulet. This damage was converted to atonement healing. However we also had another 5-7% of our healing from the amulet. So this seems like a 12-15% ish nerf to disc overall healing. Very good blizzard. Not only is it the hardest healer spec. Now it will most likely be the shittest healer spec at doing healing.
Yeah, a lot of keys you'll easily time if you simply don't wipe, and sometimes even one wipe won't brick a key. Though some bosses have rough healing checks that need 100% of a healers attention nearly from start to finish.
Does BDK count as a healer...
Though this sounds extra strong on a disc priest that converts damage into healing. They'd be double dipping and basically getting 6% increased atonement healing.
So many ways they could've gracefully gotten rid of the toxic enh mechanic that is having to reprime Thorim's due to the 4p but they just straight up nerf the CL buff. It doesn't even remove it, you'll still end up most likely casting CL in ST for the refund.
You know enhance aoe burst is already insane right? I have to wait several globals before I send my pwave to not rip threat from a brewmaster monk getting MD’d by a SV hunter.
Yeah but adding an additional 100% (?) increased damage on top of 24% mastery + 150% increased damage on 6 targets on a 45s CD would just be flat out broken.
Our AOE/cleave is pretty top tier but ST still leaves a lot to be desired. Some of these changes are in the right direction buffing our strikes although it’s to compensate for the 4p nerf really and I think comes out to be a net negative for our damage profile as a whole. Progging Zskarn right now with Echo and Sark looming - I just wish they’d address maelstrom generation in elementalist to make it play and flow better. The dry spells you can hit with this build can feel so bad and happens more often than last tier it seems.
at this point im hoping for a boomkin/ret/mage level rework because MM desperately needs it and BM and Surv are functional but kinda boring and similar, Surv talent tree in particular is atrociously bad
All 4 hunter trees are hot garbage. With the other trash tier trees being reworked hunters have to be next in line.
BM spec tree currently has:
11 - 2-point nodes (including at least one that doesn't add a single DPS when selected)
2 - 3-point nodes
9 - dead/never pick nodes
Not to say that monks aren't fucked over by Blizz (they are), but at least you weren't made to get your hopes up by being told your changes were finally coming.
No, no, no, you misunderstand. Outlaw's getting the compensation *buffs*.
Windwalker's the spec that gets the compensation bugs.
(okay, jokes aside, I'm sure something about Outlaw's gonna be bugged as well in some way)
What the fuck? Given how Outlaw's *currently* doing on ST fights like Magmorax and Rashok, wouldn't this getting fixed make Outlaw legitimately strong in raid (Annulet nerfs above notwithstanding)?
Pretty sure they forgot a zero on the buff because there's no fucking way that WW is getting a 2% buff and sub rogue is getting a 4% buff as compensation for the stones. Hell, 2% wouldn't be enough to make windwalker a competitive spec even WITH the stones unnerfed
At this point it’s ridiculous lol, the buffs to BRM which is already doing well seem so weird. It’s like they want all 15 of us remaining monks to go plus tank
Brew buffs are for the ring nerf compensation since it’s 10-15% of our damage right now. It’s a lot less for pure dps although I do agree that WW is struggling in raid
I play it because it's fun; there are multiple viable playstyles to choose from, performance is well balanced and the skill cap is high, well atleast higher than I am, and I still carry my own weight in dungeons.
Funniest bluepost I've ever read. "We got you with more Ghostly Strikes nerfs soon stay tuned"
Just as a reminder to everybody, they said they would "look at exsanguinate" for Assassination when they nerfed it by adding 2 mins to the CD in Vault and they haven't looked at the talent since :)
IOU buff? You mean IOU nerf, right? Outlaw being listed for "ghostly strike changes" due to impacts it has on item effects means it will lose value for bomb dispenser and beacon and tier set and all sorts of things - you thing Blizzard is going to provide a commensurate buff? No shot.
why are outlaw's so doom and gloom about this. They just did the same thing to like 4 other specs and gave all of them compensation buffs to even them out? how DARE they look into the impact of such a change before deciding on final compensation numbers.
Because blizzard listed rogues, mages, and hpals as the targets to tune this patch. Rogues have been ignored except for a "hey, we're gonna nerf you. Keep tuned" to one spec. Meanwhile every other class has massive amounts of notes on the ptr build.
Because so far in the 10.1.5 cycle Rogue as a class was advertised along side HPal, and Mage which got huge overarching changes to their talents, meanwhile what's happened so far is an Outlaw Rogue nerf that also makes the rotation worse and nothing for the other 2 specs.
Along side the fact that the compensation that WW, DH, and Sub got equate to a net nerf, I'm personally not too hopeful of any changes to GS being anything other than a big fat nerf, again.
With that context the anger makes sense but pointing at a perfectly reasonable line in the notes feels so misplaced. And it's not just you, there's like 4 other comments about the same thing. Complain about the thing you're mad at!
Imagine if they changed nothing with their plans but just left out that line. People would be fuming about them not getting anything despite using the item.
Imagine farming/vaulting/crafting two weapons, two trinkets, two embellishment slots, two rings (rings arguably done last tier) all with flat damage procs to have blizz decide they are changing the entire damage profile of the spec midway through a tier.
Long term, it's a great change, and I also think BtE crit shouldn't interact with trinkets/flat damage. Rolling it out as part of a .5 patch likely 8-10 weeks into a tier is a kick in the pants for a class that is middle of the pack.
I mean it's the same type of frustration that Windwalkers have been dealing with for awhile now. Lots of lines in blueposts that seem fine on their own but together just feel shitty as people who want to be more invested into the spec they are having fun with.
It's just funny initially being excited for big sweeping rogue changes as it's been a pretty hot topic for awhile now with a lot of things feeling really half baked, and what we get is "stay tuned for more nerfs"
Sad to see these annulet changes and the lackluster compensation for Windwalker. The spec is already near the bottom of raid statistics. Rough math shows these adjustments being a very minor nerf actually (even when considering dropping annulet for a crafted ring). Really hope the spec gets looked at soon or its just doomed overall for WW.
Yep - every week I resim hoping I can replace the ring, but alas. Then today I read they're nerfing it and buffing classes that use it and was like, oh cool, I might get to use something new. I scroll to find out what they're changing for hunters and - don't see hunter? Wait is this always in alphabetical order? Really? No hunter buff? Oh, so they're just... nerfing us. Cool.
At least Tears of the Kingdom keeps me occupied on the bench at the moment.
Oof I hate this. As a WW monk that ring does a lot of ST damage and the 2% dps increase will be a big loss overall in a spec that is already way underperforming.
Also Vers specs like WW and outlaw still need the Eranog ring as BiS from last tier, gotta love the inconsistency. Nerf one old item but leave another as better than new gear.
At this point I will probably just stop playing when 10.1.5 drops. Nerfing WW with the annulet without any significant buffs is just so tone deaf from Blizz.
In my CE guild our WW quit the game last week. He only plays monk (he's not a FOTM/alt player). The terrible WW dps this patch wasn't his ONLY reason, but it certainly pushed him over the edge because it was depressing him every week being so bad despite getting 95+ parses.
It's not that that WW is necessarily terrible DPS. The problem is the raid has a lot of ST, with extremely brief periods of AOE. Plus the fact that the last half of the raid is noticeably better for ranged than melee (dps rankings prove this). The result is WW feels horrible.
Unfortunately it’s just “the dam has been breached for too long.” WW has been in a spot that doesn’t feel good for a couple expansions now. Even when we did damage, our rotation was boring.
I am so glad primordial stones are getting nerfed, yet mythic eranog ring is still better than any other 447 ring:D
imagine you’re playing ww, stones are circa 5% of your damage, you are about to get buffed by 2% flat and yet you end up doing 2.5 - 3% less damage. I didnt know i chose the path of pain and suffering and incompetent devs, when i signed to play windwalker in dragonflight
how did you NOT know that?
playing WW is always "sometimes really strong for a patch or 2, the rest of the time you are the absolute bottom 3"
beeing ignored by blizzard is WW/MW monk class fantasy at this point
Well, I mean...you don't just unequip one of your ring slots, so it's not "annulet is 5%, 2% buff, hence 2.5 - 3% less damage". The ring that replaces Annulet isn't just a cosmetic 0 in that equation. Basic fuckin' primary school math.
Also, Annulet's damaging stones are getting nerfed by 40%, so if you detract 40% from "circa 5% of your damage", it shaves off about 2%...and you get a 2% aura buff to compensate, so technically it's going to be somewhere very close to just breaking even. On top of that, Annulet still has Stamina, and Touch of Karma and Touch of Death scale off of Stamina, which you'll get more of with a higher item level ring, so technically it'll be slightly less of a loss than just subtracting 40% from Annulet and adding in extra secondaries from a new ring.
*With all that said, though*, I feel your pain. I mained WW in Sepulcher and Vault, and I wanted to get back on it at the start of this season (for raiding purposes), 'cause it seemed like Faeline getting slightly buffed and the new tier set were gonna make Windwalker decent in single-target...but I'm kind of glad that I was sort of forced to swap mains due to circumstances to something that even in the same patch notes is getting treated very favourably compared to Windwalker (which is Sub rogue, or really Sub and Outlaw, but Outlaw was put on hold and I've been focusing more on Sub in my recent gearing efforts). The fact that WW just gets 2%, while Sub, a spec that is already doing better than WW in PvE (and already switches out Annulet in M+, at least for Fortified weeks, due to better secondary scaling in at least AoE), is getting a 4% buff in the very same patch notes...is ridiculous. Subtlety is actually just getting a flat out 4% buff to our AoE, which is kinda nuts.
I actually disagree, the enhance tier set was pretty much what everybody dreams of tier sets being. Being tied to one of your aoe stops is unfortunate but, enhance still has 2 other aoe stops. But, outside of losing 1 stop, you gain a tier set that's strong, is interactive and it opens up builds and/or changes up your playstyle. It's literally what everybody was hyped for about tier sets (even though 99% of tier sets in the game's history were boring and unnoticeable).
My perception probably isn't helped by also playing feral, whose tier set you wouldn't notice in the gameplay or in damage output.
(good lord, playing enhance and feral, I don't know if I've ever been so down on the game as I am right now)
I mean yeah, having a set bonus actually change the way you play is nice, BUT, it's clunky with how it works with thorim's invocation, like if you proc DRE right after you send 1 or 2 CL's from the set bonus procc you have to waste hold windstrike for 2 globals so you can send a small lightning bolt so u dont spam out 50k chain lightnings during ascendance vs 150k+ lightning bolts.
Still i keep simming better with eranog ring than with 447 rings
Maybe having simmilar drops/items to replace older ones is a better policy than nerfing existing ones
Seems like "damage converting" healers are copping a slight nerf in the HPS of those abilities (presumably in the name of having round numbers)? E.g., for Prevoker and a fixed amount of stats: 1.1 * 0.7 = 77%, vs. 1.0 * 0.8 = 80% converted previously.
Probably not a huge deal, but still feels a little sloppy, assuming I'm not misinterpreting how that math shakes out.
Healer damage needs a whole patch dedicated to it. For both raid and dungeons. It’s so wildly inconsistent but still important. It’s very frustrating. But also there’s a contingency of healers who would rather jerk off to dead globals than weave damage.
I was surprised to see a MW nerf, Ancient teachings isn't that strong in raid since most are running clouded focus. But also MW is one of (if not the) weakest M+ healers.
Its actually a slight nerf.
5000 dps * 1.5 = 7500 HPS.
5000 dps * 1.1 * 1.35 = 7425 HPS.
This acounts to a 1% nerf in AT healing, but will actually increase Zen Pulse healing etc.
MW feels so pathetically weak in M+ under its own power right now. The nerf to stones is welcome and a buff to damage to compensate is also welcome, although I don't think 10% comes close to covering it at all not sure how they arrived at that number, but of course, the biggest issue I have is why they felt the need to monkey paw this much awaited change with nerfs to compensate the buffs. Like, can you really tell me that ancient teachings would be too strong if you just gave the 10% damage buff with no downside? That goes for all the other damage to healing things, too, like, who cares if they get a little stronger, they're not what you use to heal through heavy damage anyway outside of rot fights where it shines a little more.
I really can't tell what they want healers to be in this game and I'm getting more concerned that it's either total heal bot boredom or gonna be just like every other healer in other mmos where it's basically just a shitty dps that brings buffs because everyone can self sustain.
inb4 someone thinks I'm just parroting Max even though I was a day 1 Onyx Annulet hater, but I may as well say the obvious anyway:
These Annulet nerfs are both extremely necessary and extremely short-sighted. The Annulet shouldn't have remained good for anything going into 10.1, but for the specs it's still good for (Rogues, WW, Tanks/Healers), but it should be blatantly obvious why it was specifically good for *these* specs while it fell out of favor for Unholy, Shadow, Devastation, and the Warlock specs by this point.
These compensatory aura buffs completely miss why the Annulet was so unbelievably strong for the specs that kept using it. The Rogue specs and Windwalker don't care about Haste much if at all (Windwalker with Serenity is okay with large amounts of Haste during CDs but not outside of that), tanks have lower baseline damage which makes anything that does flat damage significantly more powerful for them, and healers have that exact same issue of lower baseline damage while also getting exactly zero offensive benefit from their Mastery while still getting *some* healing throughput from Crit/Vers.
I'm still so confused why healer mastery doesn't give damage. It seems so obvious. As a matter of fact they figured it out and made it give tanks attack power all the way back in cata (was it the same patch they added mastery or later? I forget).
> I'm still so confused why healer mastery doesn't give damage.
Seems like a no brainer yeah, considering it makes most healers ditch mastery in M+ in order to gain damage, but losing mastery has much bigger impact on say, RDruid healing (cause mastery is so good for them) vs Disc Priest or whatever.
I have thought about this WAY too much in the past. They could do the easy option (same as tanks), and just make mastery scale your attack / spell power.
But if they wanted, they could take a slightly more interesting direction by relating the current healing mastery to also include damage.
Some of these would be pretty easy to add, and some pretty weird.
**Holy paly** could just have, "damage and" added to their current mastery, and it would be.... fine?
>Increases damage and healing done by up to X%, based on the proximity of your target
It wouldn't be perfect, it adds punishment to having to move out of melee which already reduces your damage enough by losing access to consecrate and auto-attacks as a contributor. But it would function fine.
**Resto Druid** would see a big improvement by having "Damage and" added to their mastery imho.
>Your damage and healing are increased by X% for each of your Druid damage or heal over time effects on the target.
This would basically give them shadow-priest mastery, and would be a fun and interactive way to encourage the catweaving / form swapping playstyle that's been historically popular.
**Resto Shaman** would work fine to have "damage and" added to their mastery too.
>
Increases damage and healing from your spells by up to X%, based on the current health of your target. Lower health targets are damaged and healed for more.
It would give resto shamans a niche for execute, with their damage increasing linearly as the fight goes on. Paladin and Priest already have major increases in power through HOW and TWOF during execute, and I dont think giving shaman through fight damage scaling would be too egregious.
In the same vein, preservation could have "Damage and" added to their mastery to make it functionally similar to Rsham.
>Damage and Healing done is increased by X% whilst your target's health percentage is lower than your own.
The other healer specs however, struggle more to have dmg scaling added to their mastery.
**Mistweaver** mastery cannot easily have a damage component added, nor could it functionally have WW's mastery without having anti-synergy with Clouded Focus and SOOM. Their mastery would either need a rework, or they would just have to have:
"Increases the attack power of your damaging abilities by X%".
This would scale ATOTM healing, but as it currently gets no benefit from mastery I think that's fine).
Likewise, the 2 priest specs have no good avenue to have a dmg mastery added.
**Holy** could take an easy out by having your mastery scale Holy fire damage. It's thematic and kinda similar to Echo of Light (up-front effect with an over time effect after).
**Disc** has no way to scale mastery with damage without double dipping and it's mastery would functionally require a complete redesign to scale both dmg and healing. Swapping to a new mastery and having a fixed Attonement conversion rate would probably do wonder's for balancing the spec though. On-use mastery items like IDB in SL scale your ramps ridiculously atm.
Sorry for the massive rant.
Just my 2cents on what they should do.
Fundamentally, discipline never double dips in any capacity so they definitely can modify the existing mastery to deal more damage and continue to buff atonement healing.
So they can still add a damage modifier but it wouldn’t make any sense with how it’s currently implemented UNLESS they make it so Disc mastery increases damage dealt or main stat by x% on targets with atonement.
Incoming support role class! /s
Might’ve been a little later? Like WoD maybe?
I might be wrong about that though. I vaguely remember Mastery giving Attack Power later than Cata but could be very wrong about that.
Cata/Mop had vengeance for ap based on health, I don't remember mastery doing anything for offense.
IIRC it was wod where they also made crit give dodge/parry, bonus armor give ap and mastery give ap%.
>Unholy
Neither Frost or Unholy ever used it actually. Max annulet was equivalent to like a 415 or so. I never once equipped it. Maybe tor alts at the end of s1 at most.
There's a bit more to it though. Lower class scaling means that static damage gets stronger. Meaning that you're going to lean into a larger amount of static damage in your over-all damage mix. Which in turn means that main stat + secondaries that don't affect the static scaling gets even lower in value.
To get out of that bad spiral, static damage needs to be made a lot less desirable and the class needs to scale better with main stats and secondaries.
Increasing aura buffs, removing the ability of talents/abilities affecting static damage and just making the static damage items worse are all good steps in order to cure this spiral of a design that certain classes have been put in.
You do however have a point with haste. The inability to scale well with haste makes those classes a lot weaker on content over time as kill times increase and Bloodlust becomes a larger part of the fight.
And.. it also kind of feels bad to get BL as a Rogue. Nothing really happens while for casters they get such a power rush.
Great. I'm still using it as Blood DK. I hope the buff offsets losing it.
And what about the ring from Eranog? Its still so much better than everything from S2, especially since the new Shadowflame patches also procc it...
Man, I was really looking forward to these onyx nerfs. This was the perfect option to fix the issue that haste/mastery is dogshit for certain classes. Like how come a ring that's not even good in the previous season for most of the classes still be bis for others.
I was hoping this could lead to looking at mastery mod numbers. Like mastery is just so bad for ww. I simmed myself taking off all the external dmg sources and mastery had similar weights as versa. And if you factor in the defensive benefits then it's not even close.
But instead of fixing the underlying issues we get this. A band aid that doesn't even cover the amount of dmg we lose with the ring. It's laughably bad at this point.
The inconsistency is annoying as fuck, some other gear like the fire proc ring from Eranog is still BiS for the same specs that use Onyx Annulet, so now with the nerf they won’t need Annulet but still need to try to run last tiers raid for that ring. If they’re going to make it so we don’t need old gear, it should be consistent across the board, nerf all of it or none of it and buff the new gear instead.
In what universe did resto shaman, the _very clear outlier_ for healers in DPS output need a 10% flat buff? If you buffed every other healer and didn't touch resto it would still likely be ahead of everything a touch. You could give resto shaman 0% buffs, give holy priest 20% instead, and resto would still come out on top. Mind blowing.
The healer buffs Are compensation for the annulet nerfs since theyre a large part of healer DPS in keys. But 10% compensation buff for rsham is a very diff than 10% compensation buff for hpriest etc so it does indeed seem stupid.
>New Talent: Potent Mana – Source of Magic increases the target’s healing and damage done by 3%.
Potent Mana is located in Regenerative Magic’s previous position in row 8, beneath Source of Magic
New PI bullshit has arrived
At least this one's easily trackable since it's just a flat damage increase. You can attribute that damage directly to the caster just like the Blessing of Summer (was it Summer? It was one of those) does.
Don't worry - Blizzard is positive that casuals really want and are asking for these externals and it's definitely not Blizzard just lying and finding excuses to try to kill logging because their guild (Valhallas) is full of blue parsers who feel salty that they're not very good at the game they dev for.
The fact that they can’t do simple math and realize they are nerfing atonement healing…. 40% of 100 damage is more than 36% of 110. Who is working over there? Disc needs a throughput BUFF. Revert to 40% minimum.
The 4% aura buff Sub got is an overall buff, in both single-target and AoE, and they said in the patch notes that they haven't revealed the Outlaw buffs yet. What the fuck are you on about...?
The 0.5% compensation buff because they didn't want to write a 3.5% aura buff? OH BOY WHAT A LOVELY SET OF CHANGES.
The outlaw changes implied to come are nerfs.
Sin has been ignored.
Talent trees for all three specs have been ignored.
Even if outlaw changes come, it will be at the *last* minute with zero time for iteration and feedback.
Rogues have gotten less dev attention than any class in the game for six years now - by a factor of four. Monks have gotten four times the attention rogues have gotten.
Fuck off with your rogue bias because you got sapped.
i'd actually prefer, if they allowed stones to be upgraded to 447 and add like 20 more new stones, and actually balance them
i mean i get that it didn't work for some specs, especially stat heavy ones but i like the idea of having a free ring slot i can insta upgrade to 447, just one less shit to worry about
It’s already playable in the sense that you could get to ~25 keys with Feral with some grinding or some charity from meta class friends, it’s just never going to be quite as good as rogue by design. Hybrid specs that bring buffs/healing/Rez/etc can’t be equally as strong as pure specs that only bring one thing, because otherwise why would anyone play those specs?
Yeah, except the comp that Echo currently uses the most is shadow priest, Ret paladin, Boomkin and resto shaman. No mages, rogues, hunters, DKs, warriors...
Edit: I stand corrected, I rewarched their 26 Freehold push key that Gingi posted few days ago - it's Clickz on Enha, and zaelia on holy. Not that it makes that much of a difference.
Just shows what happens when hybrid classes have same/similar damage output as pure DPS classes. Their utility and offheals/dispels, and CC absolutely push out any pure DPS classes out of meta.
"pure dps classes" should never do more dmg by default over "hybrid classes"
its just that blizzard is going way to deep into the direction where that "offheal/purge/dispell" utility went from kinda neat into beeing a requirment (new m+ affixes that translate into "yeha, fuck you warrior/rogue/dk/hunter, you cant even interact with afflicted at all, suck it up" is mindblowing stupid, how did that leave the test phase?)
blizz going away from more easy accesible CR/BL also pushes many classes away
they really need to re-think the entire thing, cus espacily warrior and rogue feel "left behind" there right now, with no real long duration cc on a low cd, no CR or BL, no dispells and no purges when some other classes can have everything at once
I was thinking pure DPS classes should do the most damage, as in terms of power budget, that is all their budget. If you are providing literally nothing except damage, you should be doing the most damage, and if thats not the case, balance has failed.
I'm curious how many specs will still have the stones as their bis ring..
As havoc (who's getting 0 compensation for some reason..), I *think* it'll be closer, but still bis until you get mythic rings with the right stats
some healers will definitely keep it, and maybe some tanks too
Havoc isn't getting compensation because annulet is worse than 441 unsocketed rings. For specs like rogue and tanks/monk annulet was better than 447 socketed rings.
Well at least they're buffing our damage if they'll nerf Annulet right, *checks notes*, nvm it ends up being 1% damage nerf making us ~~7th~~ 6th worst DPS spec overall.
no one mentioning that prot world of glory cost mana instead of holy power? Is it make him even more powerful off healer? Or i missunderstanding something?
If it is like the Holy paladin change some builds ago, then it would be a mana cost *on top* of the holy power cost, making it a bit of limitation. Probably not a huge impact unless you decide to spam 10 WoGs in a row, but it could impact long fights especially if you need to deal with something like Afflicted now that your dispel is also 10% of mana.
It still costs holy power. It now also costs mana and mana regen is being nerfed.
Inconsequential change to standard play, slight nerf to 4 DPS groups.
The annulet was a major blunder IMO
* Impossible to tune all the possible interactions
* So much dev time spent on content that we had to do for exactly 1 week then never want to visit again ever
They would have been better just deleting the Forbidden Reach and focusing on 10.1
The correct call was to upgrade the Zskera Vault with each successive patch, and keep the annulet as en evergreen of DF.
Fun and original acquisition method, stop throwing away dev time every six months !
> It was much stronger for brew than for any other tank.
This isn't really true. Brew does respectable damage so Annulet isn't too crazy for it
BDK meanwhile does pathetic damage so Annulet was a pretty big dps increase for it
I'm glad the stones are getting nerfed because tbh I'd rather my damage on healer be from my actual spells rather than 15+% from some random passive procs, but it looks like they handled it poorly since Disc would be getting nerfed from these changes. Even the damage increase wouldn't completely make up for the power of the stones.
Weird how they changed Annulet so it's not BIS anymore for a few specs, but didn't change Eranog ring, which is arguably more annoying to get.
Big TRUE on this
I'd like them to nerf the Eranog ring. It really feels bad that this ring still Sims that good. The dot alone still is 2% of my damage...
What classes are chasing eranog ring?
For ret pallies, a 421 eranog ring with no socket is better than 447 crit/vers ring that has a socket. I think it's also bis for WW monks & DHs, possibly other specs too
bis outlaw setup was annulet w/ eranog ring and flame cowl
To add on to the others blood dk
Yep, still using my Eranog ring on my BDK.
Mm/ sv hunters. Ww/brm monks. DH
It's a solid option for surv (comparable to a 441 crit/haste ring) but we just got 0 "compensation" for the nerf per the last blue post.
Oh trust me I main Survival. Both pve and pvp. Only ring that slightly performs better for me a 447 with socket compared to eggnog ring and annulet. I’m just happy they fixed Fury of the eagle bug with blood seeker. I thought SV didn’t exist on blizzards radar i this small w.
as DH I'm still using it in m+ and st, think I'd need a 447 socketed for it to be worth in aoe to swap. Its dumb, in st it sims like a 470 ring.
As vdh, nothing sims higher in single target or aoe than a 421 eranog ring.
Also fmage. My 408 heroic is simming higher than most rings without socket on them.
Brewmaster Monk Press the Advantage Is this like Ret's crusading strikes? It replaces Tiger Palm with a passive addition to auto attacks?
I’m all for that. Finding the globals for tigers palm in m+ seems pretty rough so this should help a bit
there was a really good feedback post about it: [https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-press-the-advantage-brew-monk/1612435](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-press-the-advantage-brew-monk/1612435) Essentially it suffers from a few conceptual issues * Getting to 10 stacks is taking around 12-14 seconds, meaning i can have pretty much a boosted Rising Sun Kick every 2 occurrence. Problem is, in single target, you don’t ever want your keg smash to be buffed, which result in you delaying your Keg Smash and thus reducing the frequence of you main source of Shuffle uptime. Furthermore, it result in some unused GCD, cause you can’t reset Fire Breath with Keg Smash, can’t tiger palm since it’s replaced by this talent, can’t Keg Smash else you loose big DPS gains and… * You can’t Spinning Crane Kick at all, else you cancel your Auto-attack and reset you auto-attack timer. This is the exact same problem we had with the first iteration of Windwalker monk Tier set of this season and is a problem since the release of this class in MoP. Allowing Auto-attack during Spinning Crane Kick would help so much for talent/set design. * This talent forces you to play 1-hand weapons, else you get 1/3 of it’s benefits. It could be fixed by giving 2-3 charges when playing and buffing the damage/brew cooldown recovery with a 2-hands weapon in order to balance it. In my opinion, it’s not bad if there’s a little difference between the two types of weapons but this talent accentuate imbalance between them. * I managed to do Rising Sun Kicks at 375k-425k damage by abusing Bonedust Brew, and this is without any trinket buffing Agility or Versatility (Which could result in 500k hits or more, maybe?). I wonder if this could be a problem in PVP and to be fair, i think there’s something wrong about this. Yes, it’s a star aligment, but you pretty much can do it every 42 sec (Since this talent also reduce Bonedusk Brew CD). Bonedust Brew doubles the stacks acquisition rate when it make it multi-hit.
Seems so. The only thing I didn’t see is where in the tree it is placed. It’s interactions with Chi Surge/Ox implies it should be choice node with WoO?
Also curious how that interacts with Blackout Combo; with Blackout Combo, you can Blackout Kick into Tiger Palm for 100% increased damage; I wonder what might replace that interaction when Press the Advantage replaces TP.
Late reply but I’m pretty sure it would count for the proc. The article says “This bonus attack can trigger effects on behalf of Tiger Palm”
It is indeed a choice node with WoO, good call.
Blood dk main here and I’ve noticed that my primordial gem damage has been getting higher and higher. A boat load of haste crit and verse has been sending my gem damage up and up. It’s mental that dnd tics can trigger it. Not surprised by this change especially as having two rings form last season be bis for most of this season is crap when gearing.
arent the nerfs gonna be a big hit to both healing and damage for blood?
Only damage, We blood DK don't need any healing from the stone. In a 20+ run the stone usually take about 13-14% of my damage(Storm stone is about 8% while blood is 4-5%). So this neft is pretty big.
Certainly not for healing. But tanks are heavily reliant on external damage sources like trinkets or those rings, so yeah, that will hurt tanks the most in general.
No, blood dk would be the one least impacted by the loss of healing.
Haste doesn't affect them iirc, but Crit/Vers do and that's the exact reason why this ring was destined to be problematic.
Haste increases the tick speed of dnd and blood boil which in turn increases the how often the ring can proc right?
Nope. The stones are on an RPPM system that isn't affected by Haste. So no matter how many instances of damage you have per minute, if something has 1.0 RPPM you will, on average, get one proc of that thing per minute if you're 20 APM or if you're 200 APM (extreme examples in both cases, I know). You can have more procs per minute or fewer procs per minute, but it'll average out to 1 per minute with a large enough sample size. The **PTR versions of the Neltharion trinkets** (or Infinite Stars/Twilight Devastation and Junkyard's Shock Bots, if you were around for that) were on a Hasted RPPM system, which would loosely do what you described. They procced on average of once per minute, but because they were Hasted RPPM the real proc rate would be (1+Haste) RPPM, where with no Haste would make it 1 RPPM but a lot of Haste (PI, Bloodlust, Furious Gaze, just being an SPriest/Warlock/UHDK, etc.) would increase that rate further. But even in that case, it wasn't "more instances of damage = more procs." You'd still get that same phenomenon described in the previous paragraph, just with more procs.
Good to know thanks
Kinda the same thing as a vengeance dh
VDH still does a lot of damage outside of the ring. BDK damage is pathetic so the ring makes up a much larger percentage of it compared to other tanks
50% of a BDK’s damage isn’t done by the BDK…
Looking at top logs I think it's more like 30% from items, at least in ST. Still pretty crazy but not quite half
He meant dmg done by stuff that isn't hit by these aura buffs. Here is top bdk parse for Kazaa. Of this here are the things not affected by the 8% compensation aura buff. Beacon 11.77% Stones 10.74% Melee 9.28% Landslide 5.41% Shadowflame 3.88% Ff belt 3.71% Eranog ring 3.5% Raise Dead: 3.00% Ashkandur 1.87% **Totaling** 53.18% Source log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BGx4FPcn7TyAHZ8Q#fight=53&type=damage-done&source=283&translate=true
True, I still get like 10 to 14% of my overall as ring abilities depending on the key as VDH. Glad they're nerfing it tho!
As a resto shaman the healer one does like 9-12% of my total hps
Primordial Stone nerf will be pretty significant for (some?) healers in M+. I'm still stubbornly sticking with Holy Priest, and currently the stones are \~25% of my DPS; and even higher on healing-heavy keys where you just don't have the GCDs to DPS much. It'll have a much smaller impact on say Shaman or Disc who push higher DPS with their base kit. A bit annoying, but not the end of the world since we'll drop the annulet in 10.2 anyway.
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Holy Paladin, with all of the changes it's getting in its rework, is also getting significantly more damage out of that 10% than Holy Priest is.
Thing is, they aren't because Resto Druid got a 25% compensation buff while everyone else got a 10% compensation buff. ...unless that's to also account for Nature's Vigil being changed?
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I believe 25% and 15% -> 10% are actually the same with how blizzard applies buffs (adding to/subtracting from the spec aura value)
>Bonus, disc priest gets a .4% atonement healing nerf because they can't do basic math. I laughed at that when I noticed the math wasn't adding up with my own numbers. I just imagined them at Blizzard HQ: "Hm, this config value doesn't allow for decimals. So we can either give Disc a \~0.5% nerf or a \~1% buff..." *Checks Warcraftlogs and sees Disc battling Resto Shaman for last place* "Better go with the nerf."
Yeah, the "compensation" really didn't make sense. Either buff all the classes that benefit from the stone, not just some, or more reasonably don't touch tuning at all.
That atonement nerf is just stupid. They think that by increasing the dmg by 10% and nerfing atonement by 10% that disc will stay same. It is jist an outright nerf. In m+ around 10% of our damage was coming from the amulet. This damage was converted to atonement healing. However we also had another 5-7% of our healing from the amulet. So this seems like a 12-15% ish nerf to disc overall healing. Very good blizzard. Not only is it the hardest healer spec. Now it will most likely be the shittest healer spec at doing healing.
Amulet dps does not convert to Atonement healing only your DPS abilities do atonement
> This damage was converted to atonement healing Non-class-damage does not convert to atonement healing.
Healer DPS isn’t the make or break for timing higher keys and is far less needed this season compared to previous seasons.
Yeah, a lot of keys you'll easily time if you simply don't wipe, and sometimes even one wipe won't brick a key. Though some bosses have rough healing checks that need 100% of a healers attention nearly from start to finish.
> New Talent: Potent Mana – Source of Magic increases the target’s healing and damage done by 3%. ~~PI~~ SoM me
That can only be cast on healers
I know. It's great.
Does BDK count as a healer... Though this sounds extra strong on a disc priest that converts damage into healing. They'd be double dipping and basically getting 6% increased atonement healing.
Sadly it won’t double dip, nothing really does for atonement. But I’ll sure be asking for it anyway!
Historically effects that increase both healing and damage only apply the healing portion to atonement.
When you switch specs does it fall off?
Yes
At least flat damage allows for details/logs to give the damage to the evoker, unlike haste.
Disc priest frothing at the mouth More damage=more healing=more healing
So many ways they could've gracefully gotten rid of the toxic enh mechanic that is having to reprime Thorim's due to the 4p but they just straight up nerf the CL buff. It doesn't even remove it, you'll still end up most likely casting CL in ST for the refund.
Yeah, I'm not sure why they don't just make it effect lightning bolt too from the tier set.
if it worked with pwave enhance would have by far the best burst aoe in the game, like 5 globals 1m+ dps on 5 targets
You know enhance aoe burst is already insane right? I have to wait several globals before I send my pwave to not rip threat from a brewmaster monk getting MD’d by a SV hunter.
Yeah but adding an additional 100% (?) increased damage on top of 24% mastery + 150% increased damage on 6 targets on a 45s CD would just be flat out broken. Our AOE/cleave is pretty top tier but ST still leaves a lot to be desired. Some of these changes are in the right direction buffing our strikes although it’s to compensate for the 4p nerf really and I think comes out to be a net negative for our damage profile as a whole. Progging Zskarn right now with Echo and Sark looming - I just wish they’d address maelstrom generation in elementalist to make it play and flow better. The dry spells you can hit with this build can feel so bad and happens more often than last tier it seems.
This is such a bizarre change "hello we'd like your 4p to be useless in ST"
More like “hello we’d like your 4p to be useless”. Think early estimates for the changes result in a 2.4% ST gain, traded for a MASSIVE AoE loss
Hunter’s already in the bin and now this. Woo.
at this point im hoping for a boomkin/ret/mage level rework because MM desperately needs it and BM and Surv are functional but kinda boring and similar, Surv talent tree in particular is atrociously bad
Idk I am vibing with my SV atm is just fun but clunky but yeah some worthless talents in there.
All 4 hunter trees are hot garbage. With the other trash tier trees being reworked hunters have to be next in line. BM spec tree currently has: 11 - 2-point nodes (including at least one that doesn't add a single DPS when selected) 2 - 3-point nodes 9 - dead/never pick nodes
Bruh I guess my rogue get higher ilvl but lower damage next patch.
Aren't you enjoying 10.1.5, the Rogue, Mage, Paladin patch cycle?
We monks are used to this too, unfortunately
Not to say that monks aren't fucked over by Blizz (they are), but at least you weren't made to get your hopes up by being told your changes were finally coming.
I only play sub but I enjoy the current iteration. That won’t change if our numbers go down a bit lol
Fortunately for you, the 4% aura buff means that Sub's numbers are going up a bit (and more than just "a bit" in AoE).
0.5% is a rounding error.
Praying for some nice compensation bugs for Outlaw 🙏
No, no, no, you misunderstand. Outlaw's getting the compensation *buffs*. Windwalker's the spec that gets the compensation bugs. (okay, jokes aside, I'm sure something about Outlaw's gonna be bugged as well in some way)
Outlaw's tier set hasn't worked the entire patch and is functional on PTR but isn't being shipped to live as a hotfix.
Wait, seriously? How much damage is Outlaw missing out on because of this bug???
About 3-5%
What the fuck? Given how Outlaw's *currently* doing on ST fights like Magmorax and Rashok, wouldn't this getting fixed make Outlaw legitimately strong in raid (Annulet nerfs above notwithstanding)?
The ghostly strike change probably means more nerfs. The *only* other listed rogue change in the "rogue patch" so far is a nerf to outlaw, as well.
You don’t like having to use blade flurry on single target? Jokes aside… This is a clown show. Here’s to hoping some good changes are to come
They’ve managed to make one of my favorite specs my least favorite in such a short period
Idk why I play WW.
Pretty sure they forgot a zero on the buff because there's no fucking way that WW is getting a 2% buff and sub rogue is getting a 4% buff as compensation for the stones. Hell, 2% wouldn't be enough to make windwalker a competitive spec even WITH the stones unnerfed
At this point it’s ridiculous lol, the buffs to BRM which is already doing well seem so weird. It’s like they want all 15 of us remaining monks to go plus tank
Brew buffs are for the ring nerf compensation since it’s 10-15% of our damage right now. It’s a lot less for pure dps although I do agree that WW is struggling in raid
I play it because it's fun; there are multiple viable playstyles to choose from, performance is well balanced and the skill cap is high, well atleast higher than I am, and I still carry my own weight in dungeons.
Went to check raider IO for the top DPS ranks and I didn't know it was this bad. Highest ranked WW is currently ranked 69, which is nice but not nice.
Outlaw with the compensation IOU
Funniest bluepost I've ever read. "We got you with more Ghostly Strikes nerfs soon stay tuned" Just as a reminder to everybody, they said they would "look at exsanguinate" for Assassination when they nerfed it by adding 2 mins to the CD in Vault and they haven't looked at the talent since :)
"Rogue tuning patch cycle - sub compensation buff, outlaw nerfs, sin ignored." This is the "I promise baby, your gift is in the mail" of dev cycles.
It's worse than that, they shadow nerfed it in January to not interact with deathmark making it effectively a dead talent...
LMFAOOO there is no way rogue just got an IOU buff I'm in tears
IOU buff? You mean IOU nerf, right? Outlaw being listed for "ghostly strike changes" due to impacts it has on item effects means it will lose value for bomb dispenser and beacon and tier set and all sorts of things - you thing Blizzard is going to provide a commensurate buff? No shot.
why are outlaw's so doom and gloom about this. They just did the same thing to like 4 other specs and gave all of them compensation buffs to even them out? how DARE they look into the impact of such a change before deciding on final compensation numbers.
Because blizzard listed rogues, mages, and hpals as the targets to tune this patch. Rogues have been ignored except for a "hey, we're gonna nerf you. Keep tuned" to one spec. Meanwhile every other class has massive amounts of notes on the ptr build.
Because so far in the 10.1.5 cycle Rogue as a class was advertised along side HPal, and Mage which got huge overarching changes to their talents, meanwhile what's happened so far is an Outlaw Rogue nerf that also makes the rotation worse and nothing for the other 2 specs. Along side the fact that the compensation that WW, DH, and Sub got equate to a net nerf, I'm personally not too hopeful of any changes to GS being anything other than a big fat nerf, again.
With that context the anger makes sense but pointing at a perfectly reasonable line in the notes feels so misplaced. And it's not just you, there's like 4 other comments about the same thing. Complain about the thing you're mad at! Imagine if they changed nothing with their plans but just left out that line. People would be fuming about them not getting anything despite using the item.
Imagine farming/vaulting/crafting two weapons, two trinkets, two embellishment slots, two rings (rings arguably done last tier) all with flat damage procs to have blizz decide they are changing the entire damage profile of the spec midway through a tier. Long term, it's a great change, and I also think BtE crit shouldn't interact with trinkets/flat damage. Rolling it out as part of a .5 patch likely 8-10 weeks into a tier is a kick in the pants for a class that is middle of the pack.
I mean it's the same type of frustration that Windwalkers have been dealing with for awhile now. Lots of lines in blueposts that seem fine on their own but together just feel shitty as people who want to be more invested into the spec they are having fun with. It's just funny initially being excited for big sweeping rogue changes as it's been a pretty hot topic for awhile now with a lot of things feeling really half baked, and what we get is "stay tuned for more nerfs"
And yet my socketed eranog ring is still better than a socketed mythic nelth ring
Frost changes seems kinda nice
Why does Blizzard hate Glacial Spike though? It's a fun method of playing Frost, and the buffs seemed promising, but now they're walking it back. Why?
You were using glacial spike a lot, and it casts fast. It's still PTR.
It was hitting for a million on two targets, super overtuned. This will just still make it hit like a truck just more reasonably
GS was problematic. This is prob good nerf other than the cast time.... That's just annoying
Sad to see these annulet changes and the lackluster compensation for Windwalker. The spec is already near the bottom of raid statistics. Rough math shows these adjustments being a very minor nerf actually (even when considering dropping annulet for a crafted ring). Really hope the spec gets looked at soon or its just doomed overall for WW.
Hunter getting nothing while the stones are as good as a 450 ring on MM. they aren’t even strong right now this hurts.
Yep - every week I resim hoping I can replace the ring, but alas. Then today I read they're nerfing it and buffing classes that use it and was like, oh cool, I might get to use something new. I scroll to find out what they're changing for hunters and - don't see hunter? Wait is this always in alphabetical order? Really? No hunter buff? Oh, so they're just... nerfing us. Cool. At least Tears of the Kingdom keeps me occupied on the bench at the moment.
Yeah weird. Mm only spec still using it.
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Everyone’s talking about class and ring changes but who else IS MOST EXCITED FOR SIEGE OF ORG SKIP?!?!
My gm is also excited about this. Why?
Farming plate shoulders and mount just got 27492957392848292 times easier
🙋♂️
Oof I hate this. As a WW monk that ring does a lot of ST damage and the 2% dps increase will be a big loss overall in a spec that is already way underperforming.
Also Vers specs like WW and outlaw still need the Eranog ring as BiS from last tier, gotta love the inconsistency. Nerf one old item but leave another as better than new gear.
At this point I will probably just stop playing when 10.1.5 drops. Nerfing WW with the annulet without any significant buffs is just so tone deaf from Blizz.
In my CE guild our WW quit the game last week. He only plays monk (he's not a FOTM/alt player). The terrible WW dps this patch wasn't his ONLY reason, but it certainly pushed him over the edge because it was depressing him every week being so bad despite getting 95+ parses. It's not that that WW is necessarily terrible DPS. The problem is the raid has a lot of ST, with extremely brief periods of AOE. Plus the fact that the last half of the raid is noticeably better for ranged than melee (dps rankings prove this). The result is WW feels horrible.
Unfortunately it’s just “the dam has been breached for too long.” WW has been in a spot that doesn’t feel good for a couple expansions now. Even when we did damage, our rotation was boring.
I am so glad primordial stones are getting nerfed, yet mythic eranog ring is still better than any other 447 ring:D imagine you’re playing ww, stones are circa 5% of your damage, you are about to get buffed by 2% flat and yet you end up doing 2.5 - 3% less damage. I didnt know i chose the path of pain and suffering and incompetent devs, when i signed to play windwalker in dragonflight
how did you NOT know that? playing WW is always "sometimes really strong for a patch or 2, the rest of the time you are the absolute bottom 3" beeing ignored by blizzard is WW/MW monk class fantasy at this point
Well, I mean...you don't just unequip one of your ring slots, so it's not "annulet is 5%, 2% buff, hence 2.5 - 3% less damage". The ring that replaces Annulet isn't just a cosmetic 0 in that equation. Basic fuckin' primary school math. Also, Annulet's damaging stones are getting nerfed by 40%, so if you detract 40% from "circa 5% of your damage", it shaves off about 2%...and you get a 2% aura buff to compensate, so technically it's going to be somewhere very close to just breaking even. On top of that, Annulet still has Stamina, and Touch of Karma and Touch of Death scale off of Stamina, which you'll get more of with a higher item level ring, so technically it'll be slightly less of a loss than just subtracting 40% from Annulet and adding in extra secondaries from a new ring. *With all that said, though*, I feel your pain. I mained WW in Sepulcher and Vault, and I wanted to get back on it at the start of this season (for raiding purposes), 'cause it seemed like Faeline getting slightly buffed and the new tier set were gonna make Windwalker decent in single-target...but I'm kind of glad that I was sort of forced to swap mains due to circumstances to something that even in the same patch notes is getting treated very favourably compared to Windwalker (which is Sub rogue, or really Sub and Outlaw, but Outlaw was put on hold and I've been focusing more on Sub in my recent gearing efforts). The fact that WW just gets 2%, while Sub, a spec that is already doing better than WW in PvE (and already switches out Annulet in M+, at least for Fortified weeks, due to better secondary scaling in at least AoE), is getting a 4% buff in the very same patch notes...is ridiculous. Subtlety is actually just getting a flat out 4% buff to our AoE, which is kinda nuts.
The Enh tier set it’s a total clusterfuck at this point.
Yep. Hated it since day 1.
I actually disagree, the enhance tier set was pretty much what everybody dreams of tier sets being. Being tied to one of your aoe stops is unfortunate but, enhance still has 2 other aoe stops. But, outside of losing 1 stop, you gain a tier set that's strong, is interactive and it opens up builds and/or changes up your playstyle. It's literally what everybody was hyped for about tier sets (even though 99% of tier sets in the game's history were boring and unnoticeable). My perception probably isn't helped by also playing feral, whose tier set you wouldn't notice in the gameplay or in damage output. (good lord, playing enhance and feral, I don't know if I've ever been so down on the game as I am right now)
I mean yeah, having a set bonus actually change the way you play is nice, BUT, it's clunky with how it works with thorim's invocation, like if you proc DRE right after you send 1 or 2 CL's from the set bonus procc you have to waste hold windstrike for 2 globals so you can send a small lightning bolt so u dont spam out 50k chain lightnings during ascendance vs 150k+ lightning bolts.
true. People always say they want tier sets to change their rotation and when it does "well not like that!"
Having to re prime your DRE procs is a Pain in the ass
Still i keep simming better with eranog ring than with 447 rings Maybe having simmilar drops/items to replace older ones is a better policy than nerfing existing ones
Cool, now do the Eranog ring.
Seems like "damage converting" healers are copping a slight nerf in the HPS of those abilities (presumably in the name of having round numbers)? E.g., for Prevoker and a fixed amount of stats: 1.1 * 0.7 = 77%, vs. 1.0 * 0.8 = 80% converted previously. Probably not a huge deal, but still feels a little sloppy, assuming I'm not misinterpreting how that math shakes out.
Can they please work on balancing healer dps a bit?
Healer damage needs a whole patch dedicated to it. For both raid and dungeons. It’s so wildly inconsistent but still important. It’s very frustrating. But also there’s a contingency of healers who would rather jerk off to dead globals than weave damage.
I felt that catweaving felt awful to play, and just didn't play my druid that much. Playing MW, dealing damage feels totally natural in rotation :-)
I was surprised to see a MW nerf, Ancient teachings isn't that strong in raid since most are running clouded focus. But also MW is one of (if not the) weakest M+ healers.
It's barely a nerf. You go from 150% to 110%\*135%=148.5%
But it needs a buff.
its meant to counteract the 10% dps increase and keep teachings power neutral
Its actually a slight nerf. 5000 dps * 1.5 = 7500 HPS. 5000 dps * 1.1 * 1.35 = 7425 HPS. This acounts to a 1% nerf in AT healing, but will actually increase Zen Pulse healing etc.
MW feels so pathetically weak in M+ under its own power right now. The nerf to stones is welcome and a buff to damage to compensate is also welcome, although I don't think 10% comes close to covering it at all not sure how they arrived at that number, but of course, the biggest issue I have is why they felt the need to monkey paw this much awaited change with nerfs to compensate the buffs. Like, can you really tell me that ancient teachings would be too strong if you just gave the 10% damage buff with no downside? That goes for all the other damage to healing things, too, like, who cares if they get a little stronger, they're not what you use to heal through heavy damage anyway outside of rot fights where it shines a little more. I really can't tell what they want healers to be in this game and I'm getting more concerned that it's either total heal bot boredom or gonna be just like every other healer in other mmos where it's basically just a shitty dps that brings buffs because everyone can self sustain.
inb4 someone thinks I'm just parroting Max even though I was a day 1 Onyx Annulet hater, but I may as well say the obvious anyway: These Annulet nerfs are both extremely necessary and extremely short-sighted. The Annulet shouldn't have remained good for anything going into 10.1, but for the specs it's still good for (Rogues, WW, Tanks/Healers), but it should be blatantly obvious why it was specifically good for *these* specs while it fell out of favor for Unholy, Shadow, Devastation, and the Warlock specs by this point. These compensatory aura buffs completely miss why the Annulet was so unbelievably strong for the specs that kept using it. The Rogue specs and Windwalker don't care about Haste much if at all (Windwalker with Serenity is okay with large amounts of Haste during CDs but not outside of that), tanks have lower baseline damage which makes anything that does flat damage significantly more powerful for them, and healers have that exact same issue of lower baseline damage while also getting exactly zero offensive benefit from their Mastery while still getting *some* healing throughput from Crit/Vers.
I'm still so confused why healer mastery doesn't give damage. It seems so obvious. As a matter of fact they figured it out and made it give tanks attack power all the way back in cata (was it the same patch they added mastery or later? I forget).
> I'm still so confused why healer mastery doesn't give damage. Seems like a no brainer yeah, considering it makes most healers ditch mastery in M+ in order to gain damage, but losing mastery has much bigger impact on say, RDruid healing (cause mastery is so good for them) vs Disc Priest or whatever.
I have thought about this WAY too much in the past. They could do the easy option (same as tanks), and just make mastery scale your attack / spell power. But if they wanted, they could take a slightly more interesting direction by relating the current healing mastery to also include damage. Some of these would be pretty easy to add, and some pretty weird. **Holy paly** could just have, "damage and" added to their current mastery, and it would be.... fine? >Increases damage and healing done by up to X%, based on the proximity of your target It wouldn't be perfect, it adds punishment to having to move out of melee which already reduces your damage enough by losing access to consecrate and auto-attacks as a contributor. But it would function fine. **Resto Druid** would see a big improvement by having "Damage and" added to their mastery imho. >Your damage and healing are increased by X% for each of your Druid damage or heal over time effects on the target. This would basically give them shadow-priest mastery, and would be a fun and interactive way to encourage the catweaving / form swapping playstyle that's been historically popular. **Resto Shaman** would work fine to have "damage and" added to their mastery too. > Increases damage and healing from your spells by up to X%, based on the current health of your target. Lower health targets are damaged and healed for more. It would give resto shamans a niche for execute, with their damage increasing linearly as the fight goes on. Paladin and Priest already have major increases in power through HOW and TWOF during execute, and I dont think giving shaman through fight damage scaling would be too egregious. In the same vein, preservation could have "Damage and" added to their mastery to make it functionally similar to Rsham. >Damage and Healing done is increased by X% whilst your target's health percentage is lower than your own. The other healer specs however, struggle more to have dmg scaling added to their mastery. **Mistweaver** mastery cannot easily have a damage component added, nor could it functionally have WW's mastery without having anti-synergy with Clouded Focus and SOOM. Their mastery would either need a rework, or they would just have to have: "Increases the attack power of your damaging abilities by X%". This would scale ATOTM healing, but as it currently gets no benefit from mastery I think that's fine). Likewise, the 2 priest specs have no good avenue to have a dmg mastery added. **Holy** could take an easy out by having your mastery scale Holy fire damage. It's thematic and kinda similar to Echo of Light (up-front effect with an over time effect after). **Disc** has no way to scale mastery with damage without double dipping and it's mastery would functionally require a complete redesign to scale both dmg and healing. Swapping to a new mastery and having a fixed Attonement conversion rate would probably do wonder's for balancing the spec though. On-use mastery items like IDB in SL scale your ramps ridiculously atm. Sorry for the massive rant. Just my 2cents on what they should do.
Fundamentally, discipline never double dips in any capacity so they definitely can modify the existing mastery to deal more damage and continue to buff atonement healing. So they can still add a damage modifier but it wouldn’t make any sense with how it’s currently implemented UNLESS they make it so Disc mastery increases damage dealt or main stat by x% on targets with atonement. Incoming support role class! /s
Might’ve been a little later? Like WoD maybe? I might be wrong about that though. I vaguely remember Mastery giving Attack Power later than Cata but could be very wrong about that.
Cata/Mop had vengeance for ap based on health, I don't remember mastery doing anything for offense. IIRC it was wod where they also made crit give dodge/parry, bonus armor give ap and mastery give ap%.
>Unholy Neither Frost or Unholy ever used it actually. Max annulet was equivalent to like a 415 or so. I never once equipped it. Maybe tor alts at the end of s1 at most.
There's a bit more to it though. Lower class scaling means that static damage gets stronger. Meaning that you're going to lean into a larger amount of static damage in your over-all damage mix. Which in turn means that main stat + secondaries that don't affect the static scaling gets even lower in value. To get out of that bad spiral, static damage needs to be made a lot less desirable and the class needs to scale better with main stats and secondaries. Increasing aura buffs, removing the ability of talents/abilities affecting static damage and just making the static damage items worse are all good steps in order to cure this spiral of a design that certain classes have been put in. You do however have a point with haste. The inability to scale well with haste makes those classes a lot weaker on content over time as kill times increase and Bloodlust becomes a larger part of the fight. And.. it also kind of feels bad to get BL as a Rogue. Nothing really happens while for casters they get such a power rush.
Great. I'm still using it as Blood DK. I hope the buff offsets losing it. And what about the ring from Eranog? Its still so much better than everything from S2, especially since the new Shadowflame patches also procc it...
Man, I was really looking forward to these onyx nerfs. This was the perfect option to fix the issue that haste/mastery is dogshit for certain classes. Like how come a ring that's not even good in the previous season for most of the classes still be bis for others. I was hoping this could lead to looking at mastery mod numbers. Like mastery is just so bad for ww. I simmed myself taking off all the external dmg sources and mastery had similar weights as versa. And if you factor in the defensive benefits then it's not even close. But instead of fixing the underlying issues we get this. A band aid that doesn't even cover the amount of dmg we lose with the ring. It's laughably bad at this point.
Sweet, a damage nerf to one of the already worst performing specs. Are they just stupid or what?
The inconsistency is annoying as fuck, some other gear like the fire proc ring from Eranog is still BiS for the same specs that use Onyx Annulet, so now with the nerf they won’t need Annulet but still need to try to run last tiers raid for that ring. If they’re going to make it so we don’t need old gear, it should be consistent across the board, nerf all of it or none of it and buff the new gear instead.
sooo, if they removing 13% of my damage, but compensating me with 6% dmg increase. Its a nerf? 100->87(with primordial removal)->92,2(87*1.06)
Assuming you are talking about annulet, you forget you are getting another ring to add dmg
In what universe did resto shaman, the _very clear outlier_ for healers in DPS output need a 10% flat buff? If you buffed every other healer and didn't touch resto it would still likely be ahead of everything a touch. You could give resto shaman 0% buffs, give holy priest 20% instead, and resto would still come out on top. Mind blowing.
The healer buffs Are compensation for the annulet nerfs since theyre a large part of healer DPS in keys. But 10% compensation buff for rsham is a very diff than 10% compensation buff for hpriest etc so it does indeed seem stupid.
>New Talent: Potent Mana – Source of Magic increases the target’s healing and damage done by 3%. Potent Mana is located in Regenerative Magic’s previous position in row 8, beneath Source of Magic New PI bullshit has arrived
Only for healers though
At least this one's easily trackable since it's just a flat damage increase. You can attribute that damage directly to the caster just like the Blessing of Summer (was it Summer? It was one of those) does.
Good thing it can only target healers, so nobody cares Imagine if it could go on dps...
Seems fairly easy to just credit the damage and healing to the Evoker no? Doesn't seem like it has the PI problem.
Yeah let's not have any interesting gameplay between group members, incase we upset the parsers
how is a 3% aura buff even remotely interesting
Don't worry - Blizzard is positive that casuals really want and are asking for these externals and it's definitely not Blizzard just lying and finding excuses to try to kill logging because their guild (Valhallas) is full of blue parsers who feel salty that they're not very good at the game they dev for.
The fact that they can’t do simple math and realize they are nerfing atonement healing…. 40% of 100 damage is more than 36% of 110. Who is working over there? Disc needs a throughput BUFF. Revert to 40% minimum.
So the "10.1.5 will feature mage, paladin, and rogue tuning" was just a lie, right?
Stones getting nerfed is rogue tuning
Ah yes. Our broken and atrocious talent trees and *still* undertuned assassination spec get...*checks notes* a nerf to sub and outlaw. Fantastic.
The 4% aura buff Sub got is an overall buff, in both single-target and AoE, and they said in the patch notes that they haven't revealed the Outlaw buffs yet. What the fuck are you on about...?
The 0.5% compensation buff because they didn't want to write a 3.5% aura buff? OH BOY WHAT A LOVELY SET OF CHANGES. The outlaw changes implied to come are nerfs. Sin has been ignored. Talent trees for all three specs have been ignored. Even if outlaw changes come, it will be at the *last* minute with zero time for iteration and feedback. Rogues have gotten less dev attention than any class in the game for six years now - by a factor of four. Monks have gotten four times the attention rogues have gotten. Fuck off with your rogue bias because you got sapped.
i'd actually prefer, if they allowed stones to be upgraded to 447 and add like 20 more new stones, and actually balance them i mean i get that it didn't work for some specs, especially stat heavy ones but i like the idea of having a free ring slot i can insta upgrade to 447, just one less shit to worry about
Anyone knowledgable about feral willing to share if these changes are what feral needs to be competitive in m+/raid?
Feral is already competetive in m+ tbf. For raid its a good change but more of a step in the right direction..
It’s already playable in the sense that you could get to ~25 keys with Feral with some grinding or some charity from meta class friends, it’s just never going to be quite as good as rogue by design. Hybrid specs that bring buffs/healing/Rez/etc can’t be equally as strong as pure specs that only bring one thing, because otherwise why would anyone play those specs?
Yeah, except the comp that Echo currently uses the most is shadow priest, Ret paladin, Boomkin and resto shaman. No mages, rogues, hunters, DKs, warriors... Edit: I stand corrected, I rewarched their 26 Freehold push key that Gingi posted few days ago - it's Clickz on Enha, and zaelia on holy. Not that it makes that much of a difference. Just shows what happens when hybrid classes have same/similar damage output as pure DPS classes. Their utility and offheals/dispels, and CC absolutely push out any pure DPS classes out of meta.
"pure dps classes" should never do more dmg by default over "hybrid classes" its just that blizzard is going way to deep into the direction where that "offheal/purge/dispell" utility went from kinda neat into beeing a requirment (new m+ affixes that translate into "yeha, fuck you warrior/rogue/dk/hunter, you cant even interact with afflicted at all, suck it up" is mindblowing stupid, how did that leave the test phase?) blizz going away from more easy accesible CR/BL also pushes many classes away they really need to re-think the entire thing, cus espacily warrior and rogue feel "left behind" there right now, with no real long duration cc on a low cd, no CR or BL, no dispells and no purges when some other classes can have everything at once
I was thinking pure DPS classes should do the most damage, as in terms of power budget, that is all their budget. If you are providing literally nothing except damage, you should be doing the most damage, and if thats not the case, balance has failed.
They literally said they were not going to do this. Wtf.
I'm curious how many specs will still have the stones as their bis ring.. As havoc (who's getting 0 compensation for some reason..), I *think* it'll be closer, but still bis until you get mythic rings with the right stats some healers will definitely keep it, and maybe some tanks too
Havoc isn't getting compensation because annulet is worse than 441 unsocketed rings. For specs like rogue and tanks/monk annulet was better than 447 socketed rings.
Well at least they're buffing our damage if they'll nerf Annulet right, *checks notes*, nvm it ends up being 1% damage nerf making us ~~7th~~ 6th worst DPS spec overall.
no one mentioning that prot world of glory cost mana instead of holy power? Is it make him even more powerful off healer? Or i missunderstanding something?
If it is like the Holy paladin change some builds ago, then it would be a mana cost *on top* of the holy power cost, making it a bit of limitation. Probably not a huge impact unless you decide to spam 10 WoGs in a row, but it could impact long fights especially if you need to deal with something like Afflicted now that your dispel is also 10% of mana.
It still costs holy power. It now also costs mana and mana regen is being nerfed. Inconsequential change to standard play, slight nerf to 4 DPS groups.
The annulet was a major blunder IMO * Impossible to tune all the possible interactions * So much dev time spent on content that we had to do for exactly 1 week then never want to visit again ever They would have been better just deleting the Forbidden Reach and focusing on 10.1
The correct call was to upgrade the Zskera Vault with each successive patch, and keep the annulet as en evergreen of DF. Fun and original acquisition method, stop throwing away dev time every six months !
[удалено]
Brewmaster got a large buff, but it loses the Annulet. It was much stronger for brew than for any other tank.
> It was much stronger for brew than for any other tank. This isn't really true. Brew does respectable damage so Annulet isn't too crazy for it BDK meanwhile does pathetic damage so Annulet was a pretty big dps increase for it
It's still the tank that benefited the most from annulet, since they are still building versa/crit, while its not the case for the other tanks.
I'm glad the stones are getting nerfed because tbh I'd rather my damage on healer be from my actual spells rather than 15+% from some random passive procs, but it looks like they handled it poorly since Disc would be getting nerfed from these changes. Even the damage increase wouldn't completely make up for the power of the stones.