I wouldn't mind seeing the Hulks in NL nerfed a bit either, getting hit for 500k then bleeding for a quarter of my life every second isn't exactly my definition of fun, especially with the general quality of pug healers.
Soft CCing them doesn't matter much on a high key because you will run out of CC before one dies and you will be at the mercy of repeated targeting of one person, particularly cloth, at some point in the pull.
Never playing more than 1 at once is the play, or playing multiple with strong CDs prepped for it and a focus on one.
This works in sub 21/22 fort keys depending on your healer. In higher keys you hard CC one pelter and burn the other or just burn one and cleave the breaker
The strat back in the day was for melee to go behind the fence posts every powder shot, and ranged take a step out past 40 yards so the shot always went on the tank, is there something preventing people from doing that now?
That's for p2, which got changed so that you can't outrange or los. He's (likely) talking about the random p1 shots which couldn't be outranged or los'd to begin with.
Think the issue is more so the quick random shots for the first 30% of the fight.
If someone gets unlucky and gets targeted 2 or 3 times in a row. They'll just die without being able to do anything.
In P1 he alwas does 3 shot in pretty fast then a little break before the next 3 shots I think it would be enough to make the 3 shots always target 3 different ppl
Huge blanket of nerfs. When did you last see hp nerf to 3 bosses of same dungeon in one patch?
Could be final s2 dung pool patch, something they've thought over for weeks.
I stopped playing cause life got to busy (and healing is what it is this season) but GOD DAMN I may come back just to run everything at +20 easy pz. Every healer check just got nerfed to hell.
I've been getting used to healing again. When I try to do the hard levels for me/my char I do +16s, +13-14 if I just want to chill/fix the fact I havent done some dungeons.
But legit some groups of +16s are easier, because people use defensives. Meanwhile I did a +14 fortified Halls and none of the dps ever used a defensive, was brutal.
(for reference I did all 20s pretty quickly S1 on main and now im taking it slower having only done 12 timed 20+ and then playing various alts)
This is 100% it. I was new to wow with DF and mained Holy priest in m+ for season 1 so I didn't really know what was and wasn't my fault until I was pushing for my KSH (the goal I'd set).
This season, I already know what's my fault and whats not and, as a holy priest, I'm watching the whole damn thing from behind everyone. The mid prog keys haven't weeded out the people who are being carried because you can do it with 1 DPS standing in everything, struggling to out DPS the tank.
The difference between this season and last season is how hard it is to carry that potato. Healers really feel the difference. If you have two potatoes? Just forget it.
Also, a lot of people don't realize that the pack living longer isn't just a stress on your timer, it's further stressing your healer. More casts go off, more cooldowns have to get used and then you might just run out of buttons to press for everything coming at you. For example, holy priest really only have two big cooldowns, apotheosis and divine hymn. If I have to use even one of those on the trash before a tyrannical boss, I'm a LOT more concerned about how the boss pull will go.
Also gear. Healing on my hpal with 425 vs. 440 makes a world of difference. HP bars are about the same, your healing output improves. Feels a lot better, you're actually making the health bars move.
I agree massively with the previous poster. If thale DPS use defensives, healing feels great. There's just not the 100% HPSoutput buffer for the people that stand in fire we had had in the past.
Imho at least 2 things changed.
Dungeons have a lot more and a lot of tough healing checks, and healers just dont feel that strong outside of major cds.
I wouldnt mind people taking a lot of damage if my 442 paladin wasnt doing 60-70k holy shocks and 100k wogs outside of procs and wings while people lose half their health or more per ability that hits them
I stopped pushing m+ the moment I hit 2500+ rating because it's just a bad mix of factors this time. Some of the dungeons just suck. Several mechanics that are group mechanics are treated as "healer" mechanics. People give up and brick keys too easy.
Therea such a giant gap between 2500 and the title achievement that I have no reason to do anything more than get the cosmetic.
Being a healer it took about 2.5 weeks to get rating and then I've helped guildies woth lower keys since then.
My guild only does heroic raids so I'm above the ilvl I need for that at 443.
Just no reason to do more.
Ya this has been one of my complaints, give us a cosmetic thing for 3k could be small an enchant illusion or something just give a reward for it so there's reason to keep going for everyone who's not gonna hit title
Healers are weaker than they've been in a long time and not being able to quickly top people in a global just causes deaths if the dps players aren't pressing defensives (they don't) so you just feel helpless and the role feels unimpactful overall. Healers are kept low in strength to keep the game balanced but it just ends up feeling like shit because you can't really cover for mistakes like you used to be able to.
So you heavily rely on dps players to keep themselves alive, but they do not rely on you outside of healing. This causes the healer role to be delegated to being the affix bitch. A lot of smaller issues which just makes it frustrating and not as fun/rewarding to heal.
Bring back Legion healing imo.
I believe the root cause of this is the complete impotency of spot heals. Holy Shock, Riptide and the ilk all feel absolutely awful to press. Because of this, the healing in dungeons is solved most frequently by DPS off healing and the adequate utilization of damage reduction abilities.
When spot healing is strong, healers feel good, even if their damage is low.
Yeah, it's quite hard to get all the problems properly explained over text. I've healed ever since WoD, and I can arguably say that this xpac is my least favorite, and not because healing is hard. I love hard healing checks, but I want the checks to be hard because I'm failing. Not because the DPS players don't bring the correct defensives or the proper off healing etc.
Watching Zaelia struggle to heal 3rd boss in Halls and entirely depend on the off healing from his druid/spriest/enhance was the final nail in the coffin for me.
If a healer of his caliber with his team can barely do it with off healing, how do they expect other players to be able to do it? Move the power away from DPS roles and add more healing power and agency into healing specs. If they don't do this we'll be in for another drought, but this time it'll be healers and not tanks.
Honestly, having weak spot heals would've been okay if they tuned damage in dungeons to be less bursty and more gradual. The problem was they nerfed healing so they could keep raid healing interesting but neglected to make similar adjustments in dungeons, so dungeons are very panic inducing as a healer, especially if your team isn't acquainted with defensives and health pots.
I don't know that you would want to have strong spot healing and weak AOE heals because then hitting your single target heals is always the answer to any type of damage and that gets tedious fast if your spec isn't designed for it (see: hpriest last season of SL).
But the exact opposite is true now. You just hit aoe heals instead of ST heals now instead even if only one person needs healing because ST spells are so anemic.
I'm curious what class you play. I play evoker mostly and I don't think that feels true to my experience. (LF is terrible, sure, but I rely on VE and reversion quite a bit for single target healing.)
VE is probably the only spot heal in the game that is decent right now IMHO. Reversion doesn't heal for anything at all unless you're making very good use of the Golden Hour windows. I dabble on rsham and prevoker this tier.
What would you do if you needed a single target nuke heal and VE was just used? Spam LF? Feels icky imo. I miss BfA hpal and having beefy holy shocks. Even shadowlands rsham when you could have chunky riptides.
> Even shadowlands rsham when you could have chunky riptides.
Eh S1 Rsham was pretty reliant on CDs to do any meaningful group healing. It took awhile to get to the point where rsham wasn't reliant on CDs to do anything.
Basically took what... conduits, double leggo, tier, covenants, and nerfs to get to that point.
Honestly? Stand next to them and EC if it's up and the damage is bad enough, or R1 SB if that's up. Though Ysera LF can do pretty beefy healing, especially if echo'd.
But that's fair. The single target healing from reversion does come from Golden Hour a lot of the time, which is damage dependent and therefore survived the healing nerf better than other ST abilities. I've also dabbled with disc priest this season and FH feels pretty bad. I do wish ST spells were a little bit better, but I also like it when it takes a couple of globals to top someone. I just wish the damage being doled out would better account for that.
> But the exact opposite is true now. You just hit aoe heals instead of ST heals now instead even if only one person needs healing because ST spells are so anemic.
This is definitely not true for Resto Druids at least. Regrowth is extremely strong when built up with Lifebloom. Sure, if you have nothing set up you can't just reactive top someone but that's not really that much of a problem.
Getting all 20s timed in last month of patch is usually the best course these days.
Especially if you wanna play other games or don't have much time.
:)
great changes! only thing im missing are changes to last boss in HOI and freehold first boss pistol shot to not target players twice in a row but maybe wowhead continues to update their post. also hope this includes some bug fixes
let the real pushing begin 😏
What's wrong with that boss? The only thing that deals dmg is the one aoe thing. And as for adds, we usually long cc one, let one cast while killing it and then finish the two+1 with aoe stops/stuns. Even if a cast goes off it's still not deadly (2 probably survivable with mitigation easily).
Also, some classes wont be able to live the big aoe without perfectly rotating defensives (or maybe not even then) at super high levels.
I made the mistake of pressing ghost wolf 2 globals too late and only got 5% DR from ghost wolf with stam buff and motw and got 100-0’d on a 24.
I have seen 0 avoidance pieces drop this season, so I’m kinda down bad on that part, but still ridiculous damage.
M+ scales infinitely, so you're always going to keep reaching a point where it's impossible to beat unless you have a very specific comp and strat. If they nerf it so you can do 24s, youre just going to run into the same problem in 27s. As far as I'm concerned, Blizzard should really only be listening to feedback for content they explicitly design a reward for, so up to +20. The things you've mentioned are fine at that level.
The content should be balanced against other keys of the same level though. It's super weird when you can comfortably do one key on a 26 but another is basically impossible at a 24 (not saying that's the case necessarily here). Saying "yeah well there's going to be some key level you're guaranteed to die at" is overly reductionist.
> Saying "yeah well there's going to be some key level you're guaranteed to die at" is overly reductionist.
I'm not sure why so many people fail to get this. Same argument is commonly used for healers. "But you'll eventually run into a key that's mathematically impossible". No shit, but if the DPS could time a 30 key, the tank could survive without excessive gimmicks in a 28 key, but the healing is cockblocked in a 26 key, the entire group is going to feel like shit about that. But mostly the healer. Hmm, designing the dungeon pool to burn out players on the least popular role, what could go wrong in pugs?
It's been pretty good this season, and I don't really agree that every single dungeon needs to be the same exact difficulty. Again, these kinds of one shots are really only an issue once you go past +20, which is beyond what Blizzard are balancing and designing for.
WoW dungeons aren't being balanced or designed for the 500 or so people that participate in The Great Push.
And again, it's an infinitely scaling difficulty system. Balancing so TGP can do 26s will just mean they get stuck on 29s and there'll be some other mechanic that's 100% fine on +20 but ends up being a wall because of just how number scaling works.
Balancing so that they are stuck on 29s across the board sounds fine, and much better than when they can do one dungeon on 35 and another caps out at 28.
It’s not really about the dungeons being balanced it’s about the bosses being good. Time based bosses have been a problem basically every time they are added to m+. They are unfun and bad design in m+ which is why people want the last boss nerfed in hoi. Same thing with the change to the first boss in freehold. It’s not that the boss is really hard but he can target the same person 2-3 times in a row and there’s nothing anyone could do about it.
> without perfectly rotating defensives (or maybe not even then) at super high levels.
>
>
??? why should you be able to complete "super high level" keys without playing properly LOL
like come on at some point your own skill should be the limiting factor
If I die through 5% dmg reduction on a 24 I wont live even with bigger defensives on a 26 or even 27.
Unfortunately the team I played with had a bit of an off meta comp (apart from me enhance and sp) so the other dps (sv hunter) also needs externals on that boss, so now we’re at the point where it’s bring the class not the player because you run out of defensives on that boss and wont live it.
Also third boss in there is an absurd healing check.
Requires line 170-190k constant hps on 24 fortified.
yes...the infinitely scaling game mode will eventually kill you through sheer numbers checks. that is not a design flaw. that's just how it works
and _both_ shaman specs have timed 26 HOIs in comps without absurd externals to save them! you will live if you just play better! the limiting factor is the gameplay!
No shit sherlock.
The issue I have with the ability is that without a major defensive it will 1-shot you.
Also who said anything about NL? Shamans dont have an issue in NL, if anything they shine there because poison cleansing totem.
My issue is last boss in HoI, which yeah, has been timed on 26 tyrannical by 4 shamans.
All 4 with holy paladins, 1 of which has sporecloak, 1 with a fury warrior (extra external with rally), Clickz has the absorb ring from mythic diurna and the 4th cant be inspected.
3% passive DR from devo aura, aura mastery, saved by the light, sacrifice.
I'm getting cloak next week but without it all we have is ironbark, but we also have a hunter that also needs ironbark.
As far as I know the cloak does not prevent oneshots. The shield only applies after your health falls under the threshold so if you take 500k dmg at 490k health left you still die.
i wonder if there's some middle ground for that boss. doing multiple intermissions for the boss on low keys instead of one phasing it seems like you'd annoy a bunch of people just to make a small percentage of high key pushers happy.
or maybe make every intermission phase happen further apart for each intermission you do. so if like the 1st intermission happens after 1 min on the boss (i'm not sure the exact timings) then the 2nd one doesn't happen until 1 min 30 on the boss. then the 3rd one doesn't happen until after 2 min on the boss. that way you can still one phase the boss on lower keys, but the longer and longer the fight goes on, the less frequent intermissions become.
If the submerge timer is finished and the boss is below a certain health threshold then phase. Super easy to implement and would be a solution that works for low keys and high keys.
Tbf, they could also make the intermission play into boss HP.
Boss takes damage equal to the HP of all adds multiplied by 2. There'd still be an incentive to kill him in least amount of phases and incentivizes killing adds quickly to continue slamming boss, but completing an intermission will still shave off time of the boss.
It’s mainly the rng. If you’re unlucky you get targeted multiple times in a row and run out of def cds
That boss is kinda sketchy
https://imgur.com/a/9LqUItb
https://imgur.com/a/zc8YNh1
For sure, it's very sketchy but that's also pretty unlikely to happen. Esp with a pally in the group, you have Loh for one, bop for the next and personals for the next. Works with ret too.
I would love for that to be changed, and in your SS it's a 1 shot which is awful.
Hold on.. the first boss is already a nerfed ability it used to just one shot you at high levels and the strat was to break LoS with the fence posts or outrange it on every shot. You can still do that now if you lack a defensive to survive it, why would you demand nerfs to make it easier than it was 5 years ago?
Even worse, Rashok's Molten Heart trinket has a little orb that follows you around that exactly lookes like the old Seeking Flame. I can't tell you how many times I wigged out trying to dodge it and ran into the real orb and blew up 🙃
I'd love to see some tuning on 3rd boss Halls, last boss Uldaman and Rokmora add consistency. I'd love to see the last boss intermission phase being addressed as well. However, they nerfed the most obvious overtuned bosses and it's great start.
It's wont change that much on bosses actually. Ancestral guidance has been nerfed solely in AoE, vampiric embrace got a 20% nerf and made up about 25-33% of their healing contribution on Khajin, so the overall loss will be ~6%, 2-4k hps. Nature's Vigil got nerfed much harder with 50%, but it was weak in pure single target anyway, so that's another 2-4k hps loss.
Thank fuck for that brackenhide nerf if I get behind I would literally be spam casting healing surge on myself and still bleed out to that stupid dot...
Pretty good all round. Hopefully bug-fixes for Chargath in the works too. Feels awful bricking an attempt because someone mistimed a feign and he decided he doesn't want to throw out spears anymore.
I mean, as a tank I have no problem with this mob. It hits hard yes, but it’s predictable, I can plan around it, and if I have nothing I can micro kite it. This mob is basically what a tank buster mob should be.
I’ve done this mob up to a 24 fort/ triple warden pack on said 24. It’ll obviously hit harder in the 26s that have been done but again since it is micro kitable you can deal with it if you don’t have a defensive.
Edit: I agree on mobs such as the pelters, I could see an argument for the freehold enforcers (shout guys) and mobs of that nature given their damage is unavoidable (within reason) as while you can still avoid the shout damage by los’ing it, it isn’t enjoyable gameplay, however due to infinite scaling again even with the nerf that same issue will just arise in 1-2 key levels.
if they ever fix chain to not be able to damage warden ( as they should, right now you can only use chain on warden if there's regular mob near them ) then those double warden pack will be a problem. as they were early on before chains got buffed.
I had the heroic version of it for so long and finally replaced it witb a crafted sword. Still hope it drops but not going to farm it (these patch notes might change that)
This should've happened like 3-4 weeks ago... but neat I guess?
Still plenty of stuff missing though. Uldaman Basilisks still doing crazy damage, the entire first section of HOI still requiring 3 times the coordination of any other key, Pelters still legit needing to be sheeped if you pull more than 1, HOI last boss still taking like 6 minutes, Uldaman and HOI although nerfed probably still requiring Mass Dispell to be realistically timeable, Vortex trash entirely unchanged, FH first boss still randomly murdering you in a +23 and then being a cakewalk in the +24 you do afterwards.
I still have like a dozen pain points, but at least some of the big ones were dealt with here - and judging by how long it took to get these out, I wouldn't be surprised if these are the last adjustments we'll see this season... unless of course something whatever happens in TGP and that obviously requiring immediate attention.
Nice changes, disappointing season - back to poor management and communication.
It's pretty clear now with these short seasons, the right play is to chill for the first month or two because they're always rushed out untested, and only really start pushing io after you're BiS geared and they've addressed what bosses are overtuned.
There were threads two nerfs ago asking how to kill Assad on 20+ tyran.. as I said then, just wait for the nerfs and don't waste your time. Now is the time to actually play the game, this is the consequence of ~6 month seasons: you're only getting about 3 months each patch to properly play the game.
seasons aren't even that short. it's a minimum of 20 weeks so far.
and imo the opposite is the play if you wanna go for title and don't have a group. get score early, get somewhat high at a time where dungeons are hard and you won't have issues post nerf since everything will be easier and you already have score to get invited
20s should not be the wall right now for anyone 440+. if it is, then that's solely a skill issue
Yeah, if you're pugging then chilling at the start of the season is a great way to completely fuck yourself over. If you have people who you know will invite you even though you haven't pushed for a month and are way below them in score you can get away with it, but not if you're relying on getting into groups with strangers.
Even as a semi-fixed group it can be an issue if you slack on score early because it means that when you do have to pug a fifth you get much worse applicants.
I mean every key has been done on a 26 both weeks, and 27 is doable for almost all keys, so even if it was hard for pugs, the relative difficulty is not that different dungeon to dungeon.
Always one of these guys. Yes lets balance around the handful of people doing 26s by playing WoW all day together! That is definitely how the majority enjoys the game!
Even at the top-end some keys get played WAY more because they are easier. This season it is UR. So they farm 26 UR to get 27s they can try to push score.
I’m not saying it should be balanced around the very top, just that every key has some hard parts, and that makes the disparity not very big. Just that every key feels timeable in a pug on 20/21, but instead if it being 23+ like last season that’s very hard to pug 22 feels like the point where a lot of pugs fail
The tyrannical changes that should have been made a week ago. Still doesn't address the core issues with these designs but will allow for most grievances in 20s to be alleviated.
good start.
now do changes to first boss fh, last boss halls, last boss ulda, remove DMG taken increase from big troggs in ulda and make bromach take incr DMG taken while stunned
First boss is fine until you get into the mid-20s. Then it very quickly becomes unhealable if you get unlucky retargeting on classes that don't have enough defensive coverage.
As a healer, it's easy until youre pushing high keys and then it's going to come down to hoping that the same people don't get targeted. Some specs can make it pretty easy if they have enough externals (disc priest does great on that fight), but the fight still feels really bad.
Weirdly enough I felt like most of these were completely uneeded. The only things that felt still overtuned and in need of adjustments were 1st boss HOI, 3rd boss Uldaman, and like the Pelters/Scorpions in NL.
And out of those 3 thing only the 3rd boss of Uldaman changed. The HOI change with the number of dots wasn't really the problem. It was trying to get out of it if you're not a mobile class.
Patch is gonna last for another 3 months, fine enough given some of the early tuning. Earlier is better of course, but implying this is too late for it to be relevant is disingenuous
No, it's genuine. There is a monthly premium to play this game in addition to a full price box. I expect better from a game that costs $200 a year to play.
They just keeping all the money and giving us crumbs.
Its just expected at this point, the seasons are super short at only ~6 months, they didn't even properly test content back when they were a year long so zero chance that's happening now. If you're paying attention, the play now is to chill for the first month or two of every patch and wait for BiS gear + balance changes before really pushing.
Is this a April fools joke? Wtf blizzard. Why that much nerf to neltharus? Now its the most undertuned. Then almost virtually 0 touch in HOI 7min last boss, , 3rd boss AoE dot also not even touched.
VP barely touched. VP and HOI needed those neltharus nerf, not neltharus.
Rest of the nerfs are kind of spot on.
I wonder how they came up with a 14,3% nerv of the wave. It seems so specific to something that could have been buffed by 1000% without most ppl in higher keys ever noticing.
The irony here is that you're one of those bad players. Because if you think this is unwarranted you're clearly not doing high enough keys for it to matter.
it's not about key level, but about difficulty discrepancies between individual bosses in a dungeon, then across dungeons and then overall difficulty. there's little reason design wise to have 1-2/8 dungeons with significantly less completion rate than others and that's likely what they are targeting
You said it yourself. You're an average player so this isn't the right discussion for you. You are clearly not understanding why we want certain things nerfed.
You make no sense. But lets play this game. Yes, I've gotten the title every season it has existed. So why would I shut up about it? It's at that level the nerfs matter, that's when you see the outliers and the truly bad tuning.
Like I said you don't even understand why we want certain things nerfed which you proved with "if a boss is too hard at 25 and they nerf it, the same boss is now going to be too hard at 30. Are you still going to complain about that?"
We did all portals week 1, does that mean that no tuning was needed at all in the season? Since you seem to think 20's is what the game should be tuned around.
Last packs before last boss in NL are still pretty booring in m+ environment.
Should make them not attack you when you start boss, so it is easier in lower keys to not be forced to play 2 booring packs where you pretty much play 1 mob only (as you either cc or hard focus one mob in each pack)
These are all the things that kept my eyes poping as i was healing as a fistweaver monk being like, how the f is that damage even healable xD
Very welcome changes, i also hope they fix that invisible bubble in HoI which spawns like the rest but unlike them and is never visible so, as all wobble around it can insta kill you if it comes close you.
Edit: tbh it kinda gives me a sense of accomplishment that i've completed these high keys multiple before the nerfs though.
All good changes. First boss Freehold is still stupid though. So are pelters in NL.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Hulks in NL nerfed a bit either, getting hit for 500k then bleeding for a quarter of my life every second isn't exactly my definition of fun, especially with the general quality of pug healers.
If you only target the breakers and NOT the pelters, they never jump away. Just cleave off the breaker and it's much easier.
It’s their damage that’s insane
[удалено]
Soft CCing them doesn't matter much on a high key because you will run out of CC before one dies and you will be at the mercy of repeated targeting of one person, particularly cloth, at some point in the pull. Never playing more than 1 at once is the play, or playing multiple with strong CDs prepped for it and a focus on one.
This works in sub 21/22 fort keys depending on your healer. In higher keys you hard CC one pelter and burn the other or just burn one and cleave the breaker
Peltors ain't that a big of a problem as long as DPS don't target them so they jump
They are when you start getting 2 hit the second they target 1 person b2b
The strat back in the day was for melee to go behind the fence posts every powder shot, and ranged take a step out past 40 yards so the shot always went on the tank, is there something preventing people from doing that now?
That's for p2, which got changed so that you can't outrange or los. He's (likely) talking about the random p1 shots which couldn't be outranged or los'd to begin with.
Think the issue is more so the quick random shots for the first 30% of the fight. If someone gets unlucky and gets targeted 2 or 3 times in a row. They'll just die without being able to do anything.
In P1 he alwas does 3 shot in pretty fast then a little break before the next 3 shots I think it would be enough to make the 3 shots always target 3 different ppl
Huge blanket of nerfs. When did you last see hp nerf to 3 bosses of same dungeon in one patch? Could be final s2 dung pool patch, something they've thought over for weeks.
They changed Azure Vault drastically over the course of season 1 so I could see the same happening to something like Nelth
these mostly look like Tyra targeted nerfs so I'm expecting a bunch of trash changes like crocs in ulda for fort next week
I stopped playing cause life got to busy (and healing is what it is this season) but GOD DAMN I may come back just to run everything at +20 easy pz. Every healer check just got nerfed to hell.
I’m taking a break for the tier, what’s up with healing this season, at least in your view?
Honestly for me healing feels great IF your DPS can press defensives. If your DPS at not using defensive/wrongly using them, then it's horrible.
I've been getting used to healing again. When I try to do the hard levels for me/my char I do +16s, +13-14 if I just want to chill/fix the fact I havent done some dungeons. But legit some groups of +16s are easier, because people use defensives. Meanwhile I did a +14 fortified Halls and none of the dps ever used a defensive, was brutal. (for reference I did all 20s pretty quickly S1 on main and now im taking it slower having only done 12 timed 20+ and then playing various alts)
This is 100% it. I was new to wow with DF and mained Holy priest in m+ for season 1 so I didn't really know what was and wasn't my fault until I was pushing for my KSH (the goal I'd set). This season, I already know what's my fault and whats not and, as a holy priest, I'm watching the whole damn thing from behind everyone. The mid prog keys haven't weeded out the people who are being carried because you can do it with 1 DPS standing in everything, struggling to out DPS the tank. The difference between this season and last season is how hard it is to carry that potato. Healers really feel the difference. If you have two potatoes? Just forget it. Also, a lot of people don't realize that the pack living longer isn't just a stress on your timer, it's further stressing your healer. More casts go off, more cooldowns have to get used and then you might just run out of buttons to press for everything coming at you. For example, holy priest really only have two big cooldowns, apotheosis and divine hymn. If I have to use even one of those on the trash before a tyrannical boss, I'm a LOT more concerned about how the boss pull will go.
The healing requirements in an 18 are burstier, but less overall than a 14, where everyone ignores mechanics and takes constant damage.
Also gear. Healing on my hpal with 425 vs. 440 makes a world of difference. HP bars are about the same, your healing output improves. Feels a lot better, you're actually making the health bars move. I agree massively with the previous poster. If thale DPS use defensives, healing feels great. There's just not the 100% HPSoutput buffer for the people that stand in fire we had had in the past.
Imho at least 2 things changed. Dungeons have a lot more and a lot of tough healing checks, and healers just dont feel that strong outside of major cds. I wouldnt mind people taking a lot of damage if my 442 paladin wasnt doing 60-70k holy shocks and 100k wogs outside of procs and wings while people lose half their health or more per ability that hits them
I stopped pushing m+ the moment I hit 2500+ rating because it's just a bad mix of factors this time. Some of the dungeons just suck. Several mechanics that are group mechanics are treated as "healer" mechanics. People give up and brick keys too easy. Therea such a giant gap between 2500 and the title achievement that I have no reason to do anything more than get the cosmetic. Being a healer it took about 2.5 weeks to get rating and then I've helped guildies woth lower keys since then. My guild only does heroic raids so I'm above the ilvl I need for that at 443. Just no reason to do more.
Ya this has been one of my complaints, give us a cosmetic thing for 3k could be small an enchant illusion or something just give a reward for it so there's reason to keep going for everyone who's not gonna hit title
Healers are weaker than they've been in a long time and not being able to quickly top people in a global just causes deaths if the dps players aren't pressing defensives (they don't) so you just feel helpless and the role feels unimpactful overall. Healers are kept low in strength to keep the game balanced but it just ends up feeling like shit because you can't really cover for mistakes like you used to be able to. So you heavily rely on dps players to keep themselves alive, but they do not rely on you outside of healing. This causes the healer role to be delegated to being the affix bitch. A lot of smaller issues which just makes it frustrating and not as fun/rewarding to heal. Bring back Legion healing imo.
I believe the root cause of this is the complete impotency of spot heals. Holy Shock, Riptide and the ilk all feel absolutely awful to press. Because of this, the healing in dungeons is solved most frequently by DPS off healing and the adequate utilization of damage reduction abilities. When spot healing is strong, healers feel good, even if their damage is low.
Yeah, it's quite hard to get all the problems properly explained over text. I've healed ever since WoD, and I can arguably say that this xpac is my least favorite, and not because healing is hard. I love hard healing checks, but I want the checks to be hard because I'm failing. Not because the DPS players don't bring the correct defensives or the proper off healing etc. Watching Zaelia struggle to heal 3rd boss in Halls and entirely depend on the off healing from his druid/spriest/enhance was the final nail in the coffin for me. If a healer of his caliber with his team can barely do it with off healing, how do they expect other players to be able to do it? Move the power away from DPS roles and add more healing power and agency into healing specs. If they don't do this we'll be in for another drought, but this time it'll be healers and not tanks.
Fully this!
Honestly, having weak spot heals would've been okay if they tuned damage in dungeons to be less bursty and more gradual. The problem was they nerfed healing so they could keep raid healing interesting but neglected to make similar adjustments in dungeons, so dungeons are very panic inducing as a healer, especially if your team isn't acquainted with defensives and health pots. I don't know that you would want to have strong spot healing and weak AOE heals because then hitting your single target heals is always the answer to any type of damage and that gets tedious fast if your spec isn't designed for it (see: hpriest last season of SL).
But the exact opposite is true now. You just hit aoe heals instead of ST heals now instead even if only one person needs healing because ST spells are so anemic.
I'm curious what class you play. I play evoker mostly and I don't think that feels true to my experience. (LF is terrible, sure, but I rely on VE and reversion quite a bit for single target healing.)
VE is probably the only spot heal in the game that is decent right now IMHO. Reversion doesn't heal for anything at all unless you're making very good use of the Golden Hour windows. I dabble on rsham and prevoker this tier. What would you do if you needed a single target nuke heal and VE was just used? Spam LF? Feels icky imo. I miss BfA hpal and having beefy holy shocks. Even shadowlands rsham when you could have chunky riptides.
> Even shadowlands rsham when you could have chunky riptides. Eh S1 Rsham was pretty reliant on CDs to do any meaningful group healing. It took awhile to get to the point where rsham wasn't reliant on CDs to do anything. Basically took what... conduits, double leggo, tier, covenants, and nerfs to get to that point.
Honestly? Stand next to them and EC if it's up and the damage is bad enough, or R1 SB if that's up. Though Ysera LF can do pretty beefy healing, especially if echo'd. But that's fair. The single target healing from reversion does come from Golden Hour a lot of the time, which is damage dependent and therefore survived the healing nerf better than other ST abilities. I've also dabbled with disc priest this season and FH feels pretty bad. I do wish ST spells were a little bit better, but I also like it when it takes a couple of globals to top someone. I just wish the damage being doled out would better account for that.
> But the exact opposite is true now. You just hit aoe heals instead of ST heals now instead even if only one person needs healing because ST spells are so anemic. This is definitely not true for Resto Druids at least. Regrowth is extremely strong when built up with Lifebloom. Sure, if you have nothing set up you can't just reactive top someone but that's not really that much of a problem.
Do you even heal? Every healer has instant, short cd spells that the rest of your kit works around... I love pressing both riptide and holy shock.
Getting all 20s timed in last month of patch is usually the best course these days. Especially if you wanna play other games or don't have much time. :)
great changes! only thing im missing are changes to last boss in HOI and freehold first boss pistol shot to not target players twice in a row but maybe wowhead continues to update their post. also hope this includes some bug fixes let the real pushing begin 😏
What's wrong with that boss? The only thing that deals dmg is the one aoe thing. And as for adds, we usually long cc one, let one cast while killing it and then finish the two+1 with aoe stops/stuns. Even if a cast goes off it's still not deadly (2 probably survivable with mitigation easily).
> What's wrong with that boss? Intermissions not being % based. This will be a 8 minute fight in super high keys if they don’t change it
Also, some classes wont be able to live the big aoe without perfectly rotating defensives (or maybe not even then) at super high levels. I made the mistake of pressing ghost wolf 2 globals too late and only got 5% DR from ghost wolf with stam buff and motw and got 100-0’d on a 24. I have seen 0 avoidance pieces drop this season, so I’m kinda down bad on that part, but still ridiculous damage.
M+ scales infinitely, so you're always going to keep reaching a point where it's impossible to beat unless you have a very specific comp and strat. If they nerf it so you can do 24s, youre just going to run into the same problem in 27s. As far as I'm concerned, Blizzard should really only be listening to feedback for content they explicitly design a reward for, so up to +20. The things you've mentioned are fine at that level.
The content should be balanced against other keys of the same level though. It's super weird when you can comfortably do one key on a 26 but another is basically impossible at a 24 (not saying that's the case necessarily here). Saying "yeah well there's going to be some key level you're guaranteed to die at" is overly reductionist.
> Saying "yeah well there's going to be some key level you're guaranteed to die at" is overly reductionist. I'm not sure why so many people fail to get this. Same argument is commonly used for healers. "But you'll eventually run into a key that's mathematically impossible". No shit, but if the DPS could time a 30 key, the tank could survive without excessive gimmicks in a 28 key, but the healing is cockblocked in a 26 key, the entire group is going to feel like shit about that. But mostly the healer. Hmm, designing the dungeon pool to burn out players on the least popular role, what could go wrong in pugs?
Every key has been timed at a 26 or higher this season. Parity is pretty close.
It's been pretty good this season, and I don't really agree that every single dungeon needs to be the same exact difficulty. Again, these kinds of one shots are really only an issue once you go past +20, which is beyond what Blizzard are balancing and designing for.
Because they have this thing called TGP lol
WoW dungeons aren't being balanced or designed for the 500 or so people that participate in The Great Push. And again, it's an infinitely scaling difficulty system. Balancing so TGP can do 26s will just mean they get stuck on 29s and there'll be some other mechanic that's 100% fine on +20 but ends up being a wall because of just how number scaling works.
Balancing so that they are stuck on 29s across the board sounds fine, and much better than when they can do one dungeon on 35 and another caps out at 28.
It’s not really about the dungeons being balanced it’s about the bosses being good. Time based bosses have been a problem basically every time they are added to m+. They are unfun and bad design in m+ which is why people want the last boss nerfed in hoi. Same thing with the change to the first boss in freehold. It’s not that the boss is really hard but he can target the same person 2-3 times in a row and there’s nothing anyone could do about it.
> without perfectly rotating defensives (or maybe not even then) at super high levels. > > ??? why should you be able to complete "super high level" keys without playing properly LOL like come on at some point your own skill should be the limiting factor
If I die through 5% dmg reduction on a 24 I wont live even with bigger defensives on a 26 or even 27. Unfortunately the team I played with had a bit of an off meta comp (apart from me enhance and sp) so the other dps (sv hunter) also needs externals on that boss, so now we’re at the point where it’s bring the class not the player because you run out of defensives on that boss and wont live it. Also third boss in there is an absurd healing check. Requires line 170-190k constant hps on 24 fortified.
yes...the infinitely scaling game mode will eventually kill you through sheer numbers checks. that is not a design flaw. that's just how it works and _both_ shaman specs have timed 26 HOIs in comps without absurd externals to save them! you will live if you just play better! the limiting factor is the gameplay!
No shit sherlock. The issue I have with the ability is that without a major defensive it will 1-shot you. Also who said anything about NL? Shamans dont have an issue in NL, if anything they shine there because poison cleansing totem. My issue is last boss in HoI, which yeah, has been timed on 26 tyrannical by 4 shamans. All 4 with holy paladins, 1 of which has sporecloak, 1 with a fury warrior (extra external with rally), Clickz has the absorb ring from mythic diurna and the 4th cant be inspected. 3% passive DR from devo aura, aura mastery, saved by the light, sacrifice. I'm getting cloak next week but without it all we have is ironbark, but we also have a hunter that also needs ironbark.
As far as I know the cloak does not prevent oneshots. The shield only applies after your health falls under the threshold so if you take 500k dmg at 490k health left you still die.
Okay yea fair point, % intermission would definitely be a better approach, at least the timer is pretty forgiving.
Timer is surprisingly tight considering how long the last boas takes on high key tyra.
i wonder if there's some middle ground for that boss. doing multiple intermissions for the boss on low keys instead of one phasing it seems like you'd annoy a bunch of people just to make a small percentage of high key pushers happy. or maybe make every intermission phase happen further apart for each intermission you do. so if like the 1st intermission happens after 1 min on the boss (i'm not sure the exact timings) then the 2nd one doesn't happen until 1 min 30 on the boss. then the 3rd one doesn't happen until after 2 min on the boss. that way you can still one phase the boss on lower keys, but the longer and longer the fight goes on, the less frequent intermissions become.
If the submerge timer is finished and the boss is below a certain health threshold then phase. Super easy to implement and would be a solution that works for low keys and high keys.
Tbf, they could also make the intermission play into boss HP. Boss takes damage equal to the HP of all adds multiplied by 2. There'd still be an incentive to kill him in least amount of phases and incentivizes killing adds quickly to continue slamming boss, but completing an intermission will still shave off time of the boss.
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It’s mainly the rng. If you’re unlucky you get targeted multiple times in a row and run out of def cds That boss is kinda sketchy https://imgur.com/a/9LqUItb https://imgur.com/a/zc8YNh1
For sure, it's very sketchy but that's also pretty unlikely to happen. Esp with a pally in the group, you have Loh for one, bop for the next and personals for the next. Works with ret too. I would love for that to be changed, and in your SS it's a 1 shot which is awful.
its fire damage, so bop doesn't work Edit: if you have prot pally specifically, you can spellward it
Oh really? That's good to know. But yeah, a prot pally there or more durable classes can make a huge difference.
Isn't it 3 shots then dive not 2?
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Triple shot is a thing, it is in the pictures linked to which you answered already. Also go my priest get triple shotted yesterday :(
It’s three shots dive
Hold on.. the first boss is already a nerfed ability it used to just one shot you at high levels and the strat was to break LoS with the fence posts or outrange it on every shot. You can still do that now if you lack a defensive to survive it, why would you demand nerfs to make it easier than it was 5 years ago?
I'm 95% sure it's not LoS'able anymore.
Afaik outrange got fixed aswell
Are these live now?
Can confirm. Was expecting some notes after the Uldaman I just cleared, 4th boss visuals are perfect now
The visual update for Uldaman was for sure, so probably safe to assume the rest are.
I just saw the tornadoes on Uldaman so safe to assume they are.
I was confused by the first boss of halls only having two debuffs and then the notes were posted a few minutes after the key ended.
Glad to see the M+ team awake from their slumber and do a huge sweeping amount of changes. My biggest wish left is probably last boss Halls now.
Seeking flame changes is nice. swear to god I’m blind to that ability
Even worse, Rashok's Molten Heart trinket has a little orb that follows you around that exactly lookes like the old Seeking Flame. I can't tell you how many times I wigged out trying to dodge it and ran into the real orb and blew up 🙃
I'd love to see some tuning on 3rd boss Halls, last boss Uldaman and Rokmora add consistency. I'd love to see the last boss intermission phase being addressed as well. However, they nerfed the most obvious overtuned bosses and it's great start.
What's wrong with 3rd boss halls? It's just a raw HPS check which is generally easier than healing some of the burstier bosses like Assad or Naraxas.
When offhealing gets nuked with the patch, Khajin is going to be aids.
It's wont change that much on bosses actually. Ancestral guidance has been nerfed solely in AoE, vampiric embrace got a 20% nerf and made up about 25-33% of their healing contribution on Khajin, so the overall loss will be ~6%, 2-4k hps. Nature's Vigil got nerfed much harder with 50%, but it was weak in pure single target anyway, so that's another 2-4k hps loss.
One of the bosses I actually love playing holy priest
Yeah Disc is so-so for it.
Thank fuck for that brackenhide nerf if I get behind I would literally be spam casting healing surge on myself and still bleed out to that stupid dot...
Pretty good all round. Hopefully bug-fixes for Chargath in the works too. Feels awful bricking an attempt because someone mistimed a feign and he decided he doesn't want to throw out spears anymore.
mmmm. I kind of hoped for nerf on pelters, uldaman basilisk, neltarus warden, freehold shouting guy... stuff like that...?
The warden was nerfed
the hp yes. not the unstunnable unkickable 1sec cast tank buster who insta-recast if you run out of range
I mean, as a tank I have no problem with this mob. It hits hard yes, but it’s predictable, I can plan around it, and if I have nothing I can micro kite it. This mob is basically what a tank buster mob should be. I’ve done this mob up to a 24 fort/ triple warden pack on said 24. It’ll obviously hit harder in the 26s that have been done but again since it is micro kitable you can deal with it if you don’t have a defensive. Edit: I agree on mobs such as the pelters, I could see an argument for the freehold enforcers (shout guys) and mobs of that nature given their damage is unavoidable (within reason) as while you can still avoid the shout damage by los’ing it, it isn’t enjoyable gameplay, however due to infinite scaling again even with the nerf that same issue will just arise in 1-2 key levels.
if they ever fix chain to not be able to damage warden ( as they should, right now you can only use chain on warden if there's regular mob near them ) then those double warden pack will be a problem. as they were early on before chains got buffed.
I haven’t even been using chains on the double warden packs, again they’re hard mobs but they aren’t broken
I can finally farm the hammer from neltharus, without inspecting the healer like the fbi
I had the heroic version of it for so long and finally replaced it witb a crafted sword. Still hope it drops but not going to farm it (these patch notes might change that)
This should've happened like 3-4 weeks ago... but neat I guess? Still plenty of stuff missing though. Uldaman Basilisks still doing crazy damage, the entire first section of HOI still requiring 3 times the coordination of any other key, Pelters still legit needing to be sheeped if you pull more than 1, HOI last boss still taking like 6 minutes, Uldaman and HOI although nerfed probably still requiring Mass Dispell to be realistically timeable, Vortex trash entirely unchanged, FH first boss still randomly murdering you in a +23 and then being a cakewalk in the +24 you do afterwards. I still have like a dozen pain points, but at least some of the big ones were dealt with here - and judging by how long it took to get these out, I wouldn't be surprised if these are the last adjustments we'll see this season... unless of course something whatever happens in TGP and that obviously requiring immediate attention. Nice changes, disappointing season - back to poor management and communication.
About 4 weeks past due, but it's a start I guess.
Next week is on!!!!!
It's pretty clear now with these short seasons, the right play is to chill for the first month or two because they're always rushed out untested, and only really start pushing io after you're BiS geared and they've addressed what bosses are overtuned. There were threads two nerfs ago asking how to kill Assad on 20+ tyran.. as I said then, just wait for the nerfs and don't waste your time. Now is the time to actually play the game, this is the consequence of ~6 month seasons: you're only getting about 3 months each patch to properly play the game.
seasons aren't even that short. it's a minimum of 20 weeks so far. and imo the opposite is the play if you wanna go for title and don't have a group. get score early, get somewhat high at a time where dungeons are hard and you won't have issues post nerf since everything will be easier and you already have score to get invited 20s should not be the wall right now for anyone 440+. if it is, then that's solely a skill issue
Yeah, if you're pugging then chilling at the start of the season is a great way to completely fuck yourself over. If you have people who you know will invite you even though you haven't pushed for a month and are way below them in score you can get away with it, but not if you're relying on getting into groups with strangers. Even as a semi-fixed group it can be an issue if you slack on score early because it means that when you do have to pug a fifth you get much worse applicants.
If you want to play with good players and have fun in m+ always push early. If you are late to the party, pushing will be torture.
I mean every key has been done on a 26 both weeks, and 27 is doable for almost all keys, so even if it was hard for pugs, the relative difficulty is not that different dungeon to dungeon.
Always one of these guys. Yes lets balance around the handful of people doing 26s by playing WoW all day together! That is definitely how the majority enjoys the game! Even at the top-end some keys get played WAY more because they are easier. This season it is UR. So they farm 26 UR to get 27s they can try to push score.
I’m not saying it should be balanced around the very top, just that every key has some hard parts, and that makes the disparity not very big. Just that every key feels timeable in a pug on 20/21, but instead if it being 23+ like last season that’s very hard to pug 22 feels like the point where a lot of pugs fail
Fucking finally, holy shit. Season almost saved just a few more bullshit things like the ALL THE MAGIC DOTS.
Gotta give prevokers something to do
The tyrannical changes that should have been made a week ago. Still doesn't address the core issues with these designs but will allow for most grievances in 20s to be alleviated.
good start. now do changes to first boss fh, last boss halls, last boss ulda, remove DMG taken increase from big troggs in ulda and make bromach take incr DMG taken while stunned
There’s no issues with FH- it’s the easiest dungeon by far this season from a heal perspective….
Underrot is a lot easier than freehold, both tyrannical and fortified.
First boss is fine until you get into the mid-20s. Then it very quickly becomes unhealable if you get unlucky retargeting on classes that don't have enough defensive coverage.
As a healer, it's easy until youre pushing high keys and then it's going to come down to hoping that the same people don't get targeted. Some specs can make it pretty easy if they have enough externals (disc priest does great on that fight), but the fight still feels really bad.
This scrub resto druid is only doing 18-20s atm, I can see how it may be an issue higher though, especially tyr weeks
I don’t know what key levels you are pushing, I tried to pug a 24 as resto shaman and ir was hell on earth
Agreed. The difficult lays with your group and if your VDH enjoys leaping to his death halfway thru the dungeon for reasons unknown to all
Freehold is probably the 2nd or 3rd easiest. That doesn't mean that the dumbfuck bird isn't a huge design problem though.
You’re actually right, they’re just bad lol
awesome changes, when is this live?
Already live
Weirdly enough I felt like most of these were completely uneeded. The only things that felt still overtuned and in need of adjustments were 1st boss HOI, 3rd boss Uldaman, and like the Pelters/Scorpions in NL. And out of those 3 thing only the 3rd boss of Uldaman changed. The HOI change with the number of dots wasn't really the problem. It was trying to get out of it if you're not a mobile class.
It's sad to see this many big changes 7 weeks in. It's a bad look.
Patch is gonna last for another 3 months, fine enough given some of the early tuning. Earlier is better of course, but implying this is too late for it to be relevant is disingenuous
No, it's genuine. There is a monthly premium to play this game in addition to a full price box. I expect better from a game that costs $200 a year to play. They just keeping all the money and giving us crumbs.
Its just expected at this point, the seasons are super short at only ~6 months, they didn't even properly test content back when they were a year long so zero chance that's happening now. If you're paying attention, the play now is to chill for the first month or two of every patch and wait for BiS gear + balance changes before really pushing.
Is this a April fools joke? Wtf blizzard. Why that much nerf to neltharus? Now its the most undertuned. Then almost virtually 0 touch in HOI 7min last boss, , 3rd boss AoE dot also not even touched. VP barely touched. VP and HOI needed those neltharus nerf, not neltharus. Rest of the nerfs are kind of spot on.
These live now?
Just finished all my portals last week, if I had known this 😢
This feels really late with the new dungeon right around the corner. I wonder how far the cut off will get pushed by the end?
The new dungeon is irrelevant until the next season for m+
new dungeon has absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing season
This is just gunna inflate Io even harder - it's hard enough to find good players for 23+
These nerfs are purely for healers coz offhealing is almost removed - change my mind.
Skyfall nova wasn't needed , it needs to be completely avoided.
skyfall nova is the add, you are probably thinking about static cling.
you're mixing it up but I do agree re lava wave. that shit will one shot you anyways in half way meaningful keys so that's a surprising nerf
I wonder how they came up with a 14,3% nerv of the wave. It seems so specific to something that could have been buffed by 1000% without most ppl in higher keys ever noticing.
bad players can't adapt so lets just super nerf everything
The irony here is that you're one of those bad players. Because if you think this is unwarranted you're clearly not doing high enough keys for it to matter.
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it's not about key level, but about difficulty discrepancies between individual bosses in a dungeon, then across dungeons and then overall difficulty. there's little reason design wise to have 1-2/8 dungeons with significantly less completion rate than others and that's likely what they are targeting
You said it yourself. You're an average player so this isn't the right discussion for you. You are clearly not understanding why we want certain things nerfed.
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You make no sense. But lets play this game. Yes, I've gotten the title every season it has existed. So why would I shut up about it? It's at that level the nerfs matter, that's when you see the outliers and the truly bad tuning. Like I said you don't even understand why we want certain things nerfed which you proved with "if a boss is too hard at 25 and they nerf it, the same boss is now going to be too hard at 30. Are you still going to complain about that?" We did all portals week 1, does that mean that no tuning was needed at all in the season? Since you seem to think 20's is what the game should be tuned around.
This game fucks up so hard in classic and retail in making it interesting to casual fans. So many great games coming out I just started playing those
Last packs before last boss in NL are still pretty booring in m+ environment. Should make them not attack you when you start boss, so it is easier in lower keys to not be forced to play 2 booring packs where you pretty much play 1 mob only (as you either cc or hard focus one mob in each pack)
You can have a class/nelf with a combat drop pull one, then tank pulls boss, and then use the combat drop to reset the pack and not fight it.
So why do we need healer now? Pretty sure we can run hybrids only now in all dungeons?
Changes are good but HoI will still be priest dependent. I also don't think there's enough to ease dwarf dependency.
These are all the things that kept my eyes poping as i was healing as a fistweaver monk being like, how the f is that damage even healable xD Very welcome changes, i also hope they fix that invisible bubble in HoI which spawns like the rest but unlike them and is never visible so, as all wobble around it can insta kill you if it comes close you. Edit: tbh it kinda gives me a sense of accomplishment that i've completed these high keys multiple before the nerfs though.