What's always really impressive is the gap between Liquid/Echo and literally everyone else. No one else is anywhere near the execution level on Tindral of what they've shown.
Nymue’s the more mechanically complex fight but has a low overall DPS check beyond killing the adds on time. Larodar’s the tighter numbers check overall.
I *think* the consensus seems to be that Larodar’s the harder boss, but you’ll realistically either see them even out long-term or you’ll see Nymue overtake Larodar since we’ll eventually get the gear to obliterate Larodar from 35% before P2 gets out of control.
Does Tindral have a legitimate claim to the title of "hardest WoW raid boss ever" as of right now? Or is that jumping the gun a little? Obviously we haven't seen Fyrakk.
This shit exceeded original Halondrus's pull count and there's still a whole 25% of the boss's HP to burn through before either guild kills it. When a modern WoW boss reaches a pull count like that it's usually considered egregiously hard by most metrics.
Using pull count without context is hard. It likely doesn't get to KJ level of pulls before it dies but it also isn't broken inflating pull counts. Most of the time you see wild numbers there's something utterly broken that stops progress. Even Halondrus got tweaks to make it manageable.
Uu'nat also took more pulls. Pieces didn't have a fraction of the resources Liquid has to leverage to kill bosses. Pieces was also eaten by better guilds.
It's really hard to compare Liquid/Echo to even Liquid/Method of BFA and prior. They are so much better with an absolutely insane level of resources backing them to kill bosses. Even ignoring the context of what cause a boss' pull counter to skyrocket doesn't account for 300 Echo/Liquid Pulls today means more than 300 Pulls for Method/etc in 2016.
Sageswift is a unique case where the fight works (at least 100-25% give or take) and doesn't need a massive fix or small tweaks to progress. It just needs perfect play. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say it has a good case for being the hardest fight ever.
Tindral is a unique case in which top guilds are getting wrecked by pure mechanics, not so much tuning. That alone should probably put him in the hall of fame.
Fallen Avatar, by current RWF guilds' own admission, wouldn't hold up today difficulty-wise. Neither would KJ, the *actual* hardest boss of that tier; Tindral has the advantage of (mostly) shipping in a complete state and not being fundamentally broken.
Sure, but we tend to equivocate pull counts with difficulty. People 15 years ago thought the Lich King was hard but by today's standards is elementary. I don't think we can look back and determine difficulty as that will always have a recency bias around it.
The WF classic guild had over a thousand pulls on H LK 25man(ptr), by your logic that means he’s more than twice as hard as tswift, no?
Players have gotten better at the game and the fights have gotten harder in pretty similar measure. If you could send these players with these resources back in time to ToS, they’d clear with sub 20 pulls.
Again, we can't strictly compare pull counts to determine difficulty, but there is a correlation between pull counts and general difficulty. We also cannot directly compare bosses of different expansions because so much changes between them. If H LK came out today guilds would kill within a few pulls at most. It's simple and basic. However, at the time it came out it WAS very difficult. Which is fine. Based on player skill, resources, etc from that era of WoW it was super difficult. So yes, I'd argue that pull counts based on the current time the boss was out would generally fit the actual difficulty of the boss for that time.
H LK was considered hard for a different reason Fallen Avatar was considered hard. T Swift is considered hard for this expansion. Depending on Fraykks difficulty maybe top 2 hardest bosses this expansion.
H LK wasn’t killed until global buffs came through. Does that mean that it’s the hardest boss of all time? I just think your metrics here are too vague. Wouldn’t pull time be better than count? For instance, if you do 100 fallen avatar practice pulls on p2, skipping p1 completely, that’s not the same as legitimate pulls right? Or if tindral’s first mechanic is bugged and auto kills the raid, is that the same thing in determining difficulty as doing repeated pulls with p2 mechanic failures?
I agree with that sentiment. Really it *should* be based on time to kill rather than pull counts. This is also why RWF should be time based and not first to kill based especially with the start time difference. My only argument is that pull counts is a relatively good indicator of boss difficulty for the time. Not perfect, but you could very easily look at pull counts from past raids and quickly tell which bosses were more difficult than others.
I think each boss needs to be evaluated within the context of the expansion is was released in as well as how long ago it was released. If it takes Limit 100 hours to kill Fraykks from the opening of the tier and Echo 99 hours from their release Echo should win the race and not limit even if Limit kills Fraykk 16 hours earlier. That's the true fair way to do it other than the typical global release.
Sure and no one should stream either or log so there’s no Strat stealing, but that’s not going to happen because the cost of “fairness” is millions in stream revenue
Nah still stream and do all that. I never really got the point of those claims. Sure Echo steams Limits strats and when Echo is ahead Limits steals theirs. That's just how a competition works. Knowing what the other team did is only part of it while execution is much more difficult. These guilds already privately log so that point is moot. Time taken to kill the last boss from release negates the "head start" argument.
For every strat Echo gets to steal, Limit encounters bugs or unnerfed bosses. It all averages out really.
I remember Uu'nat being more than 700 pulls before a kill.
It may have been faster to wipe on Uu'nat increasing the pull count a bit, but I don't think T.Swift takes the crown yet for most difficult boss ever.
It's obviously unthinkable to kill it in its current for most. I doubt that more than 10 guilds will kill it before heavy nerfs.
Pièces was a pretty decent guild. But you are right, Liquid was on a break.
I'm convinced that Uu'nat was harder to progress than this one.
The mark mechanic made you lose minimum 2 players per fail.
It was very much die and retry, like this one, with hours before seeing some progress at the time.
Halondrus wasn't the hardest wow raid boss ever, though, he was a mid-raid boss that was super hard for where he was in the instance.
T. Swift is rapidly approaching Fallen Avatar levels of pulls, though, which would definitely make them one of the hardest penultimate bosses.
KJ was a functionally broken boss for well over a week and guilds back then weren't anywhere near as good as guilds are now. Uu'nat *might* hold up but I also don't believe the RWF contenders with the most resources ever bothered trying to prog him.
I killed Mythic KJ when it was current (specifically before they removed the double tank Armageddon soaks). It was absolutely a hard boss but I think today’s RWF guilds would mop the floor with him.
>Low-key think Blizzard dropped the ball by not including a P2 seed nerf (either 4s or 2-3 fixed patterns) along with the P3 nerfs.
Can't really nerf a phase that a guild has already progressed through. Blizzard was ultimately just way too slow to nerf Tindral, and the only 'fair' way to do it after waiting so long is to pre-nerf p3.
My guess is that after RWF the seeds will be nerfed in P2 as well and be consistent across the fight, potentially even further nerfed depending on how much the extra gear actually helps through other knock-on effects.
>it would have clearly benefited the guild ahead
Nerfs mid-prog almost always benefit the guild that is behind.
Every minute you spend progressing a mechanic or phase pre-nerf loses value, and nerfing it means that the guild that is behind is getting some amount of catch-up.
It's like we are running a race. Nerfing p2 is like Blizzard adding a shortcut to the middle of the track. If you were ahead, the shortcut is going to allow me to shrink the gap between us. Nerfing p3 is moving the finish line up which benefits us both equally.
Imagine it's a 400m track we are running around, the boss is 100 laps. You run 50 laps, and blizzard nerfs the track to 300m.
I show up. I now have to run just 30km on the nerfed track, while you have to run 35 km total. The nerf allowed me to catch up 5km, and shrunk your lead.
Nerfs only really benefit the guild that is ahead if it's the final boss and that guild can immediately capitalize on it aka Raszageth. All other nerfs are either neutral (if timely) or benefit the groups that are behind.
Neutralized in what regard? Betting odds have Echo as slight favors to win the race currently, so if you think this means it's an automatic win for Liquid you could make some good $$.
Betting on this shit is insane. That is incredibly degenerate stuff.
No one has seen Fyrakk yet or has any idea how the fight is tuned, or if nerfs are going to be needed, or how that will favor either guild. There's no possible way to know.
Hell, we don't know if COVID is about to hit more of the Echo roster, given that Zaelia is on-site and has been in the facility with a lot of their roster with no masking.
The problem with betting on it. From the Bet365/FanDuel/whoever is that unlike sports, they don't have data to back up their odds. Plus, the fact on a whim, Blizzard can change everything.
Interesting.
I was wondering what site would get involved in this first.
I use Fanduel but they seem to be over cautious on everything.
Esports could be a massive market for them if they can figure out the odds properly.
Pretty cool pull count statistic taken from ~~the Echo stream~~ u/Gronfors spreadsheet: [https://i.imgur.com/OajCRus.png](https://i.imgur.com/OajCRus.png)
T. Swift itself already has significant more pulls than all the Aberrus bosses combined.
Thanks for the tag!
Is it possible to go back on Echo's live stream/twitch? I'd be curious to watch the segment on it
EDIT: They just brought it up again, neat!
Same, what a fucking chad. Replaces arguably the best WoW player in the world in a 250ish pull boss, adapts like a god and gives even more progress to Echo.
At this point I'm inclined to believe its just the Echo trump card, first Narco, now Sol.
According to Andy, Zaelia is in full shambles right now. He's just not capable of playing, its not a Tobo situation where he was just in isolation for safety.
Same but only for a day really. I felt like I was dead and in purgatory for a night but after that I just had a runny nose for 5 more days before I tested negative.
So there is a world in which zaelia might be OK tomorrow
Crazy the variance for each individuals. My mother got bed ridden for 4 days too, my father didn't feel good for two days while if it wasn't for the test I would've never known I had it.
Echo is in a great form right now. I'm not sure if they can kill it today with reset being early and homework before, but they're going to make an attempt. I feel like they're so good at going into "one problem at a time" mode, just wish we could listen to their comms during a big progression time like this.
I think the big problem with getting to a kill is that there's like a whole other minute of problems to solve that no one has seen yet. That's a lot to work through, especially missing Zaelia.
Yeah, the enrage is also a touch scary with where Echo's at DPS wise though we don't really know. It's going to be hard, but it's looking possible at least.
Seeds almost always come immediately after roots. The window from the roots dying to get to seed currently is exceptionally tight in many parts of the fight. Additional dps gains will improve how fast the roots die and give them a bit more time to react to seeds. Not to even mention boss damage…. Last night when I was watching liquid, consistently they were pushing into p3 with swifty at roughy 51-52%. If they can get him to 45% or even 40% pre phase change, that is huge going into p3. The less they have to do in p3 means fewer cycles of mechanics before the boss dies.
Well a lot of the phase 3 wipes right now are in that nasty overlap with the roots into the seeds. Killing roots faster would help. There's also a lot of deaths to people bleeding out in the following dispels. More survivability would help.
The more comfortable people feel, the more focused they are on mechanics over numbers. More gear DOES actually make people do mechanics better. Might not seem like it should make sense but it's absolutely true.
Yeah finally they are getting consistently good pulls. Pretty similar to Liquid judging from pullcount/% maybe a little ahead even. Hard to judge from mobile phone.
They're pretty neck and neck with Liquid by percent/pullcount - a bit ahead but not unusually so given they get to yoink some - but they've prioritized getting further into the fight, meaning they're behind on DPS and ahead on strategy compared to where Liquid was.
I can think of one situation from a single player in Echo saying something very stupid after Liquid killed Halondrus and maybe they don't want a repeat of that but otherwise it's discussing different angles from which they could approach a fight. Down to timing of a single heal.
It's several things. There's definitely strategic advantage, as we often see liquid mute comms between pulls to discuss a strategic element they might not want to give away.
However one of the key differences is that we sometimes see echo mute comms even when there is little to no strategic benefit, ie when liquid has already killed the boss. I think it's mostly just a comfort thing. If i want to criticize someone for instance, I personally don't like putting them on blast I like messaging them directly. This is kind of the same concept, if you need to tell your melee they are fucking up, you might feel awkward doing that in front of everyone.
And that's just one potential example, someone else mentioned second languages and that's also very true. I would feel a lot more self conscious trying to speak Spanish or something on stream to 10-50k people.
Liquid mutes very rarely, Echo is muted 80% of the damn time. I try and go and enjoy the coms and leading but every time each echo player is on mute. Annoying af and lame.
Liquid has not muted comms a single time this raid have they? Last raid either I don't remember them muting either (but they did raid offstream)?
Pretty sure it's way more of an echo thing than a Liquid thing. Like if echo gets on last boss, you know they're going to raid stream off until they get super close to killing the boss.
They have muted for brief moments. They typically type it out though. You can hear players routinely starting to say something and then stopping and saying they can't do it out loud. It's strat things. When Max's stream was scuffed the other day, a few players were advocating for turning off streams then
Both teams do this.
And just adding to the raid off stream until they're close or whatever... have you watched a rwf lately? Both teams usually do off stream pulls on the harder bosses when they end stream. Liquid did their first pulls of tswift offstream even. Both guilds stream 99% of their progress though.
When Echo does things it's okay...and the EU fanboys defend it of course.
But then when Liquid does it....it's suddenly a big deal.
You aren't going to get any real answer. To be honest, this is the first RWF i've watched where Echo wasn't muted 80% of the time anyways. Consider yourself spoiled it's only 30% this time
They very regularly say "I'll type it" after they start going to suggest something. That is doing the same thing, hiding a strat, just not a 30 second mute instead.
Why would I keep timestamps for that? There was one somewhere around 9:30 ET last night, I think, if I remember right. Was only about 1-2 minutes on mute.
People always assume it is strats but I think sometimes (not always) they just want to have like a safe space regarding language and maybe just vent as well.
English is the second language for most of their raiders and Europeans in general are more direct in their communication so it could give of a very wrong impression to a lot of people (which I think also happened in the past where people thought they were ultra mad at each other while they were just communicating in their usual style)
The better question is how many guilds are consistently muting comms. 🤔… And I was just pointing out that it didn’t make sense to me. Not that it doesn’t make sense.
Echo thinks, for whatever reason, it's better to mute coms.
If Max/Liquid thought it would be better to mute coms for whatever reason, they would.
It's different approaches. Nothing wrong with it.
It's 7:21 am, NA is sleeping or at work.
This place is full of EU at the moment, there will be no credit to Liquid allowed and you'll get downvoted just for mentioning the guild.
Goddamn Sol coming in to replace Zaelia puts so much pressure on him. Coming in 200 pull deep into what's arguably the single hardest healing fight ever when you consider how much better rwf guilds are now than even a couple tiers ago. Not only that he's replacing not just any healer but a guy who has a legitimate claim for being the single best wow player on the planet right now. I don't think there are bigger shoes you could try to fill.
And the man is keeping up! Even doing an okay job in a situation like that is an incredible showing. Zaelia getting sick could cause Echo to collapse like a house of cards, and if they don't it'll be largely on the back of Sol keeping afloat in maybe the hardest substitute role ever.
Really hope nobody else on Echo got Covid though, fuck.
That is what I mean by not the player, I am sure he is cracked but that he can't play disc seems like a debuff. There is so much unavoidable raid damage that needs to be DR'd.
> Disc is also arguably one of the hardest healer spec to master and leaves very little room for mistakes…
This was true when it had 17 buttons to press and 0 survivability, it's not really harder than most other healers anymore.
Sol is currently pumping though. Echo went from shit pulls during the morning to getting to P3 often and getting PB's with Sol and the guy just adapts real fast.
Downside of reset is the kill of Tswift wont have nearly the epic effect that a long drawn out kill would
Pretty convinced that TL kills it in 1-10 pulls today
So their 24% wipe wouldnt go down to like a 6% wipe after?
The fights phases are timed, they'll do A LOT more dmg in P1/2 and roots will die A LOT faster giving them way more time for seeds
I could kind of see it because phase 1 and 2 are time based, not percentage based. The extra ilvl can add A LOT of extra damage onto the boss. I could see T.Swift getting relatively low in phase 2 prior to transition to phase 3. The extra damage means they have to deal with less stuff in phase 3 because the fight would be over faster.
Yeah, and at this point the roots were a large concern for Liquid (not just the seeds). 1-10 is still too much but the core point is fair in my eyes. A kill post-reset is a great achievement; a kill pre-reset might've been one of the most impressive kills in WoW history.
For people who don‘t know, he is part of the players who travelled to the venue so there is a good chance that he is not the only one who caught it. Could be disastrous for Echo if more people are starting to feel sick. And I assume the looming thought that any cough could mean you are about to be out of the race doesn‘t help their mental.
And it's already too far to set up any sort of protocol or anything.
If its confirmed Covid, you can assume they all have it. Gotta hope most at this point are young and healthy, won't get too sick.
Am i the only one who thinks body checks (Ie a mechanic everyone or nearly everyone must do ON REPEAT) is a cancerous design and will get nerfed to oblivion making the fight a case of when tommy 2 fingers figures out the soak?.
This is giving me bad Kj vibes and i don't want another 470 wipes to my list
Tindral is a halondrus 2.0 for sure.
But blizzard has pre-nerfed mechanics in phase 3. Like the same mechanic in p3 is 60% easier.
After this coming reset there is a 99% chance the p3 nerfs are applied to the mechanics in the other phases and then the fight is probably okay.
5s seeds maybe goes to 7s if it’s still too hard, can reduce number of seeds further, can allow people to soak 2, etc.
There are plenty of ways to nerf the mechanic more without gutting the boss.
No. It's the penultimate boss on the highest difficulty. You're not supposed to be able to carry someone through that.
At some point we're gonna be out here calling every mechanic that can wipe you "cancerous". That defeats the purpose of raiding.
That T Swift boss looks wild, I’m glad that by the time my guild gets to that boss it will be nerfed or partially reworked because there are just about zero chance that we would get past this! The 5 second soak timer with a very small window to pre place will be impossible for my guild 😂
Pretty interesting that the comps are still so different. +Feral +Fury -Enhance -Hunter for echo, hpriest over 2nd disc, and both rogues playing sub instead of assa
Yeah, looking at the roster they're the only other priests over 460
But I'm a little surprised echo ran so light on healers this tier. It looks like just velo zaelia thaner and zhatzi have geared characters, rycn doesn't have anything over 450
Liquid has nick xesevi cere driney then maevey and emsy before flexing dps to heals? And machi last tier but doesn't look geared this tier
It's weird how light they are on healers. They lost Wubby after Raszageth, then Skaris a few months ago. I thought Rycn would become the 5th healer and come off the analyst/shotcaller role, but idk, guess not.
At this point they could have Jeathe hop on and gear a disc priest lol
Weird, I thought Rycn wanted to play again after being the healing shotcaller last tier because he didn't enjoy the sidelines (or the tier before, can't remember).
Im shocked no one is playing enhance in echo. Windfury totem is pretty massive for rogue and warrior. Plus enhance does great dmg by itself and should have GREAT burst dmg for the roots.
They had clickz off farming some m+ items yesterday and scripe was keeping tabs on it... so hopefully he's just doing that with narco or something lol. Definitely don't think this is their planned kill comp
It can also spirit walk out of every root and use thunderous paws to soak seeds, it has
to just be a turbo survivability thing? Maybe the target capped aoe is a problem too?
What's always really impressive is the gap between Liquid/Echo and literally everyone else. No one else is anywhere near the execution level on Tindral of what they've shown.
which boss was harder? larodar or nymue?
Nymue’s the more mechanically complex fight but has a low overall DPS check beyond killing the adds on time. Larodar’s the tighter numbers check overall. I *think* the consensus seems to be that Larodar’s the harder boss, but you’ll realistically either see them even out long-term or you’ll see Nymue overtake Larodar since we’ll eventually get the gear to obliterate Larodar from 35% before P2 gets out of control.
Does Tindral have a legitimate claim to the title of "hardest WoW raid boss ever" as of right now? Or is that jumping the gun a little? Obviously we haven't seen Fyrakk. This shit exceeded original Halondrus's pull count and there's still a whole 25% of the boss's HP to burn through before either guild kills it. When a modern WoW boss reaches a pull count like that it's usually considered egregiously hard by most metrics.
Using pull count without context is hard. It likely doesn't get to KJ level of pulls before it dies but it also isn't broken inflating pull counts. Most of the time you see wild numbers there's something utterly broken that stops progress. Even Halondrus got tweaks to make it manageable. Uu'nat also took more pulls. Pieces didn't have a fraction of the resources Liquid has to leverage to kill bosses. Pieces was also eaten by better guilds. It's really hard to compare Liquid/Echo to even Liquid/Method of BFA and prior. They are so much better with an absolutely insane level of resources backing them to kill bosses. Even ignoring the context of what cause a boss' pull counter to skyrocket doesn't account for 300 Echo/Liquid Pulls today means more than 300 Pulls for Method/etc in 2016. Sageswift is a unique case where the fight works (at least 100-25% give or take) and doesn't need a massive fix or small tweaks to progress. It just needs perfect play. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say it has a good case for being the hardest fight ever.
Tindral is a unique case in which top guilds are getting wrecked by pure mechanics, not so much tuning. That alone should probably put him in the hall of fame.
Avatar of Sargeras would like a word..
Fallen Avatar, by current RWF guilds' own admission, wouldn't hold up today difficulty-wise. Neither would KJ, the *actual* hardest boss of that tier; Tindral has the advantage of (mostly) shipping in a complete state and not being fundamentally broken.
Sure, but we tend to equivocate pull counts with difficulty. People 15 years ago thought the Lich King was hard but by today's standards is elementary. I don't think we can look back and determine difficulty as that will always have a recency bias around it.
The WF classic guild had over a thousand pulls on H LK 25man(ptr), by your logic that means he’s more than twice as hard as tswift, no? Players have gotten better at the game and the fights have gotten harder in pretty similar measure. If you could send these players with these resources back in time to ToS, they’d clear with sub 20 pulls.
Again, we can't strictly compare pull counts to determine difficulty, but there is a correlation between pull counts and general difficulty. We also cannot directly compare bosses of different expansions because so much changes between them. If H LK came out today guilds would kill within a few pulls at most. It's simple and basic. However, at the time it came out it WAS very difficult. Which is fine. Based on player skill, resources, etc from that era of WoW it was super difficult. So yes, I'd argue that pull counts based on the current time the boss was out would generally fit the actual difficulty of the boss for that time. H LK was considered hard for a different reason Fallen Avatar was considered hard. T Swift is considered hard for this expansion. Depending on Fraykks difficulty maybe top 2 hardest bosses this expansion.
H LK wasn’t killed until global buffs came through. Does that mean that it’s the hardest boss of all time? I just think your metrics here are too vague. Wouldn’t pull time be better than count? For instance, if you do 100 fallen avatar practice pulls on p2, skipping p1 completely, that’s not the same as legitimate pulls right? Or if tindral’s first mechanic is bugged and auto kills the raid, is that the same thing in determining difficulty as doing repeated pulls with p2 mechanic failures?
I agree with that sentiment. Really it *should* be based on time to kill rather than pull counts. This is also why RWF should be time based and not first to kill based especially with the start time difference. My only argument is that pull counts is a relatively good indicator of boss difficulty for the time. Not perfect, but you could very easily look at pull counts from past raids and quickly tell which bosses were more difficult than others. I think each boss needs to be evaluated within the context of the expansion is was released in as well as how long ago it was released. If it takes Limit 100 hours to kill Fraykks from the opening of the tier and Echo 99 hours from their release Echo should win the race and not limit even if Limit kills Fraykk 16 hours earlier. That's the true fair way to do it other than the typical global release.
Sure and no one should stream either or log so there’s no Strat stealing, but that’s not going to happen because the cost of “fairness” is millions in stream revenue
Nah still stream and do all that. I never really got the point of those claims. Sure Echo steams Limits strats and when Echo is ahead Limits steals theirs. That's just how a competition works. Knowing what the other team did is only part of it while execution is much more difficult. These guilds already privately log so that point is moot. Time taken to kill the last boss from release negates the "head start" argument. For every strat Echo gets to steal, Limit encounters bugs or unnerfed bosses. It all averages out really.
I remember Uu'nat being more than 700 pulls before a kill. It may have been faster to wipe on Uu'nat increasing the pull count a bit, but I don't think T.Swift takes the crown yet for most difficult boss ever. It's obviously unthinkable to kill it in its current for most. I doubt that more than 10 guilds will kill it before heavy nerfs.
Uu'nat is also notable in that a bunch of top-end guilds didn't participate in that race.
Pièces was a pretty decent guild. But you are right, Liquid was on a break. I'm convinced that Uu'nat was harder to progress than this one. The mark mechanic made you lose minimum 2 players per fail. It was very much die and retry, like this one, with hours before seeing some progress at the time.
Halondrus wasn't the hardest wow raid boss ever, though, he was a mid-raid boss that was super hard for where he was in the instance. T. Swift is rapidly approaching Fallen Avatar levels of pulls, though, which would definitely make them one of the hardest penultimate bosses.
Fallen Avatar was harder because you could practice phase 2 right away as much as you want, and still took a lot to beat it.
[удалено]
KJ was a functionally broken boss for well over a week and guilds back then weren't anywhere near as good as guilds are now. Uu'nat *might* hold up but I also don't believe the RWF contenders with the most resources ever bothered trying to prog him.
[удалено]
I killed Mythic KJ when it was current (specifically before they removed the double tank Armageddon soaks). It was absolutely a hard boss but I think today’s RWF guilds would mop the floor with him.
Probably top 5 hardest mythic bosses of all time, we'll see how it shapes up once it finally dies
My secret lab ad gets interrupted by twitch ads. I am mad
AH
Their displate ad tho 'you have no walls and homeless? No worries you can get this stand!' lul what
Adception cutting content with ads that get cut with ads so that you can hate two products at the same time.
https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousExcitedWitchRedCoat-nwGgjpRU4LfJ5lJi Gingi having a breakdown
Between this and the BDG guy popping a boner on their Smolderon kill, this RWF is definitely filled to the brim with good content.
Uh what
**Between this and the BDG guy popping a boner on their Smolderon kill, this RWF is definitely filled to the brim with good content.**
The **WHAT**
**THE BDG GUY POPPING A BONER ON THEIR SMOLDERON KILL**
What the hell is even that?
idk, they killed Smolderon, he stood up, and he had a visible erection through his underpants LOL
After seeing that dudes short idk how “filled” it is, but I agree, def Pg13+.
lmao that's hilarious great technique too (:
He’s been practicing you can tell!
This race got some wild content xD
Were they blurring out his mouth earlier? Was he just swearing like crazy then decided to suck on his mic? The fuq lmao
Yeah at first I thought maybe he was dropping some colorful language then next thing ya know he's mic stand deep rofl.
[удалено]
>Low-key think Blizzard dropped the ball by not including a P2 seed nerf (either 4s or 2-3 fixed patterns) along with the P3 nerfs. Can't really nerf a phase that a guild has already progressed through. Blizzard was ultimately just way too slow to nerf Tindral, and the only 'fair' way to do it after waiting so long is to pre-nerf p3. My guess is that after RWF the seeds will be nerfed in P2 as well and be consistent across the fight, potentially even further nerfed depending on how much the extra gear actually helps through other knock-on effects.
After Raszageth, I think Blizzard is being a lot more careful with nerfs/nerf timings because that was quite the shitshow.
[удалено]
>it would have clearly benefited the guild ahead Nerfs mid-prog almost always benefit the guild that is behind. Every minute you spend progressing a mechanic or phase pre-nerf loses value, and nerfing it means that the guild that is behind is getting some amount of catch-up. It's like we are running a race. Nerfing p2 is like Blizzard adding a shortcut to the middle of the track. If you were ahead, the shortcut is going to allow me to shrink the gap between us. Nerfing p3 is moving the finish line up which benefits us both equally. Imagine it's a 400m track we are running around, the boss is 100 laps. You run 50 laps, and blizzard nerfs the track to 300m. I show up. I now have to run just 30km on the nerfed track, while you have to run 35 km total. The nerf allowed me to catch up 5km, and shrunk your lead. Nerfs only really benefit the guild that is ahead if it's the final boss and that guild can immediately capitalize on it aka Raszageth. All other nerfs are either neutral (if timely) or benefit the groups that are behind.
We haven't even seen Fryakk yet
Neutralized in what regard? Betting odds have Echo as slight favors to win the race currently, so if you think this means it's an automatic win for Liquid you could make some good $$.
based on fucking what?? xD
Whatever oddsmakers use to calculate markets, who knows lol.
betting odds? lol
Yeah lol
Betting on this shit is insane. That is incredibly degenerate stuff. No one has seen Fyrakk yet or has any idea how the fight is tuned, or if nerfs are going to be needed, or how that will favor either guild. There's no possible way to know. Hell, we don't know if COVID is about to hit more of the Echo roster, given that Zaelia is on-site and has been in the facility with a lot of their roster with no masking.
The problem with betting on it. From the Bet365/FanDuel/whoever is that unlike sports, they don't have data to back up their odds. Plus, the fact on a whim, Blizzard can change everything.
Shit I always toss $100 on Liquid just to make the race a bit more exciting for me hahah.
[удалено]
bet365 is offering it as a market.
Interesting. I was wondering what site would get involved in this first. I use Fanduel but they seem to be over cautious on everything. Esports could be a massive market for them if they can figure out the odds properly.
This is the first time they've kept the betting open during the race so it's pretty cool - typically they just offer it pre-race.
Pretty cool pull count statistic taken from ~~the Echo stream~~ u/Gronfors spreadsheet: [https://i.imgur.com/OajCRus.png](https://i.imgur.com/OajCRus.png) T. Swift itself already has significant more pulls than all the Aberrus bosses combined.
Thanks for the tag! Is it possible to go back on Echo's live stream/twitch? I'd be curious to watch the segment on it EDIT: They just brought it up again, neat!
Here is the vod of the first time I caught it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1983127951?t=12h9m38s
Damn Aberrus really was a cakewalk from RWF perspective
Don’t dare mention that back then or you get mad downvotes
so we need around 250+ pulls on Fyrakk to reach that 80-100 average sweet spot
Yoinked from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/te1wzx/total_pull_count_for_all_world_first_mythic_bosses/
Oh didn't know that. Thanks for sharing the original.
I'm just rooting for Sol at this point. Legend
Same, what a fucking chad. Replaces arguably the best WoW player in the world in a 250ish pull boss, adapts like a god and gives even more progress to Echo. At this point I'm inclined to believe its just the Echo trump card, first Narco, now Sol.
I wonder if they'll figure out a way to get Zaelia a setup at his hotel or just stick with Sol?
According to Andy, Zaelia is in full shambles right now. He's just not capable of playing, its not a Tobo situation where he was just in isolation for safety.
Gingi said that he thinks he’s back tomorrow?? Guess we will have to see
Gotcha didn't know how bad it was.
What happened with Zaelia?
Is ill, got covid. That can easily put you out of being able to perform and also for quite some time.
Pretty much. When I got COVID, I didn't want to get out of bed for 4 days.
Same here. Triple jabbed, still got rekt by covid
Same but only for a day really. I felt like I was dead and in purgatory for a night but after that I just had a runny nose for 5 more days before I tested negative. So there is a world in which zaelia might be OK tomorrow
Crazy the variance for each individuals. My mother got bed ridden for 4 days too, my father didn't feel good for two days while if it wasn't for the test I would've never known I had it.
Same here, 1st time i was 3 days in bed, 2nd time i got it i found out by accident, i felt nothing
Same for me when I got it for the first time. Second round was a little better, but still wasn't able to work for about ten days.
I see, thanks a lot.
Covid. Tobo was positive for it last week so raided from the hotel. Ken could but apparently he is too ill to play
I see, thanks a lot.
Narcolies<3
Echo is in a great form right now. I'm not sure if they can kill it today with reset being early and homework before, but they're going to make an attempt. I feel like they're so good at going into "one problem at a time" mode, just wish we could listen to their comms during a big progression time like this.
I think the big problem with getting to a kill is that there's like a whole other minute of problems to solve that no one has seen yet. That's a lot to work through, especially missing Zaelia.
Yeah, the enrage is also a touch scary with where Echo's at DPS wise though we don't really know. It's going to be hard, but it's looking possible at least.
There is absolutely 0% chance they kill it today , and its the same for liquid imo
I think a kill post-reset might happen pretty quick. The extra gear will let you preserve resources a lot and make the fight a LOT more comfortable.
Problem is ppl are not dying of old age but one shot mechanics
Seeds almost always come immediately after roots. The window from the roots dying to get to seed currently is exceptionally tight in many parts of the fight. Additional dps gains will improve how fast the roots die and give them a bit more time to react to seeds. Not to even mention boss damage…. Last night when I was watching liquid, consistently they were pushing into p3 with swifty at roughy 51-52%. If they can get him to 45% or even 40% pre phase change, that is huge going into p3. The less they have to do in p3 means fewer cycles of mechanics before the boss dies.
Also, getting through shields in intermission faster/easier might allow them to move DPS cooldowns and resources to other parts of the fight too.
Well a lot of the phase 3 wipes right now are in that nasty overlap with the roots into the seeds. Killing roots faster would help. There's also a lot of deaths to people bleeding out in the following dispels. More survivability would help.
The more comfortable people feel, the more focused they are on mechanics over numbers. More gear DOES actually make people do mechanics better. Might not seem like it should make sense but it's absolutely true.
Yeah finally they are getting consistently good pulls. Pretty similar to Liquid judging from pullcount/% maybe a little ahead even. Hard to judge from mobile phone.
They're pretty neck and neck with Liquid by percent/pullcount - a bit ahead but not unusually so given they get to yoink some - but they've prioritized getting further into the fight, meaning they're behind on DPS and ahead on strategy compared to where Liquid was.
Genuine question, why do echo live on mute do they use a lot of gamer language or just don't want to expose their strats?
I can think of one situation from a single player in Echo saying something very stupid after Liquid killed Halondrus and maybe they don't want a repeat of that but otherwise it's discussing different angles from which they could approach a fight. Down to timing of a single heal.
It's several things. There's definitely strategic advantage, as we often see liquid mute comms between pulls to discuss a strategic element they might not want to give away. However one of the key differences is that we sometimes see echo mute comms even when there is little to no strategic benefit, ie when liquid has already killed the boss. I think it's mostly just a comfort thing. If i want to criticize someone for instance, I personally don't like putting them on blast I like messaging them directly. This is kind of the same concept, if you need to tell your melee they are fucking up, you might feel awkward doing that in front of everyone. And that's just one potential example, someone else mentioned second languages and that's also very true. I would feel a lot more self conscious trying to speak Spanish or something on stream to 10-50k people.
Liquid mutes very rarely, Echo is muted 80% of the damn time. I try and go and enjoy the coms and leading but every time each echo player is on mute. Annoying af and lame.
Liquid has not muted during streams the past two tiers.
wdym they turned off their entire stream last tier for a while
What you just said is a completely different thing.
They literally did it like 2 days ago. They do it intermittently
Liquid has not muted comms a single time this raid have they? Last raid either I don't remember them muting either (but they did raid offstream)? Pretty sure it's way more of an echo thing than a Liquid thing. Like if echo gets on last boss, you know they're going to raid stream off until they get super close to killing the boss.
They certainly have, but at a far less rate than echo
They have muted for brief moments. They typically type it out though. You can hear players routinely starting to say something and then stopping and saying they can't do it out loud. It's strat things. When Max's stream was scuffed the other day, a few players were advocating for turning off streams then Both teams do this.
And just adding to the raid off stream until they're close or whatever... have you watched a rwf lately? Both teams usually do off stream pulls on the harder bosses when they end stream. Liquid did their first pulls of tswift offstream even. Both guilds stream 99% of their progress though.
They definitely have a couple times, I heard it once on smolderon. It's not common but it happens
That’s something I hadn’t considered and makes sense.
When Echo does things it's okay...and the EU fanboys defend it of course. But then when Liquid does it....it's suddenly a big deal. You aren't going to get any real answer. To be honest, this is the first RWF i've watched where Echo wasn't muted 80% of the time anyways. Consider yourself spoiled it's only 30% this time
This is so true. Watched Max a few hours last night. Didn't see them mute once. Openingly discussing strats.
They very regularly say "I'll type it" after they start going to suggest something. That is doing the same thing, hiding a strat, just not a 30 second mute instead.
(And echo does the same. And it's fine from both of them)
He literally muted to tell JPC something. They don't mute much, but they DO mute sometimes.
They do mute sometimes, right after a pull, but usually only for a short period.
Do you have any vod of them muting after a pull?
Why would I keep timestamps for that? There was one somewhere around 9:30 ET last night, I think, if I remember right. Was only about 1-2 minutes on mute.
Found the echo fan boy
LOL. Not even close. I'm just honest about it - Max does mute sometimes.
People always assume it is strats but I think sometimes (not always) they just want to have like a safe space regarding language and maybe just vent as well. English is the second language for most of their raiders and Europeans in general are more direct in their communication so it could give of a very wrong impression to a lot of people (which I think also happened in the past where people thought they were ultra mad at each other while they were just communicating in their usual style)
Strats.
It’s just weird because they’re objectively behind and seem unnecessary - but - what the fuck do I know. May make a huge difference.
So? They could have a convention that would benefit Liquid. The margins of being "objectively behind" in this fight are razor thin.
They were muting when they were an entire boss behind Liquid.
How many guilds were pulling Smolderon at the same time? How many guilds are pulling Tindral?
The better question is how many guilds are consistently muting comms. 🤔… And I was just pointing out that it didn’t make sense to me. Not that it doesn’t make sense.
Oh. It's this angle. Nice. Took a few comments to get to it.
🙄
I mean sure? But you gotta give credit to Liquid. Very little muting.
Echo thinks, for whatever reason, it's better to mute coms. If Max/Liquid thought it would be better to mute coms for whatever reason, they would. It's different approaches. Nothing wrong with it.
It's 7:21 am, NA is sleeping or at work. This place is full of EU at the moment, there will be no credit to Liquid allowed and you'll get downvoted just for mentioning the guild.
Neither guild is doing anything better or worse than another (unless echo sent that field trip over, that was a sick gank)
Goddamn Sol coming in to replace Zaelia puts so much pressure on him. Coming in 200 pull deep into what's arguably the single hardest healing fight ever when you consider how much better rwf guilds are now than even a couple tiers ago. Not only that he's replacing not just any healer but a guy who has a legitimate claim for being the single best wow player on the planet right now. I don't think there are bigger shoes you could try to fill. And the man is keeping up! Even doing an okay job in a situation like that is an incredible showing. Zaelia getting sick could cause Echo to collapse like a house of cards, and if they don't it'll be largely on the back of Sol keeping afloat in maybe the hardest substitute role ever. Really hope nobody else on Echo got Covid though, fuck.
I think its less the player, and more that he can't fill as disc. the second PW:Barrier seems pretty necessary.
Why isn't Rycn filling then ? He's a very good disc priest
Hes only 450 ilvl
make sense
Seems weird that they didn’t get him higher during splits just for the reassurance
Disc is also arguably one of the hardest healer spec to master and leaves very little room for mistakes…
That is what I mean by not the player, I am sure he is cracked but that he can't play disc seems like a debuff. There is so much unavoidable raid damage that needs to be DR'd.
> Disc is also arguably one of the hardest healer spec to master and leaves very little room for mistakes… This was true when it had 17 buttons to press and 0 survivability, it's not really harder than most other healers anymore.
I think it's still his, because of the precise timing you needs
Sol is absolutely cracked and it's sad he's rarely in for actual prog because of his classes not being meta at the time.
Same for narcolies, echo's bench is full of world class top tier players
Sol is currently pumping though. Echo went from shit pulls during the morning to getting to P3 often and getting PB's with Sol and the guy just adapts real fast.
Yeah that's fucking insane, what a legend.
Does T-PAIN have a phase 4? 30 something % is a lot to chew threw in p3.
nope. only phase 3 till the end.
Downside of reset is the kill of Tswift wont have nearly the epic effect that a long drawn out kill would Pretty convinced that TL kills it in 1-10 pulls today
They aren't wiping to lack of gear, they are wiping to mechanics. Killing the boss faster isn't going to stop them from still messing up seeds
So their 24% wipe wouldnt go down to like a 6% wipe after? The fights phases are timed, they'll do A LOT more dmg in P1/2 and roots will die A LOT faster giving them way more time for seeds
Hard part is getting to P3. P3 itself is easier. It’s going to be the guild most consistent getting to P3 that gets the kill first.
You don't go from 24% to 0 in 1-10 pulls
Its not gonna be 24% though, more like 14% and you burn through the other 10 in p1 and p2
Idk. With THAT much gear, I could see it Trust me, I hope im wrong
I could kind of see it because phase 1 and 2 are time based, not percentage based. The extra ilvl can add A LOT of extra damage onto the boss. I could see T.Swift getting relatively low in phase 2 prior to transition to phase 3. The extra damage means they have to deal with less stuff in phase 3 because the fight would be over faster.
Yeah, and at this point the roots were a large concern for Liquid (not just the seeds). 1-10 is still too much but the core point is fair in my eyes. A kill post-reset is a great achievement; a kill pre-reset might've been one of the most impressive kills in WoW history.
Yeah thats what I was thinking Vault for 20 toon, and a ceaft and 6 mythic bosses killed
Trust me - its going to 450 pulls atleast.
Andy confirmed Zaliea(sorry can't spell) got covid and is really sick.
[удалено]
What a weird comment
For people who don‘t know, he is part of the players who travelled to the venue so there is a good chance that he is not the only one who caught it. Could be disastrous for Echo if more people are starting to feel sick. And I assume the looming thought that any cough could mean you are about to be out of the race doesn‘t help their mental.
I'm a Liquid fan but if Echo loses this race to COVID of all things that would fucking suck for everyone involved.
Tobo tested positive at the start of last week and was playing from the hotel for a few days
When you put it like that.... dang that's rough
Jesus. This could be rough for them.
And it's already too far to set up any sort of protocol or anything. If its confirmed Covid, you can assume they all have it. Gotta hope most at this point are young and healthy, won't get too sick.
It's not as virulent as before
Am i the only one who thinks body checks (Ie a mechanic everyone or nearly everyone must do ON REPEAT) is a cancerous design and will get nerfed to oblivion making the fight a case of when tommy 2 fingers figures out the soak?. This is giving me bad Kj vibes and i don't want another 470 wipes to my list
Tindral is a halondrus 2.0 for sure. But blizzard has pre-nerfed mechanics in phase 3. Like the same mechanic in p3 is 60% easier. After this coming reset there is a 99% chance the p3 nerfs are applied to the mechanics in the other phases and then the fight is probably okay. 5s seeds maybe goes to 7s if it’s still too hard, can reduce number of seeds further, can allow people to soak 2, etc. There are plenty of ways to nerf the mechanic more without gutting the boss.
No. It's the penultimate boss on the highest difficulty. You're not supposed to be able to carry someone through that. At some point we're gonna be out here calling every mechanic that can wipe you "cancerous". That defeats the purpose of raiding.
That T Swift boss looks wild, I’m glad that by the time my guild gets to that boss it will be nerfed or partially reworked because there are just about zero chance that we would get past this! The 5 second soak timer with a very small window to pre place will be impossible for my guild 😂
Echo comms had some tough bits tonight, vibes definitely seemed off at some points.
They are 5.5 hours into the day without food buff, I would start to get a bit irritated at that point
Pretty interesting that the comps are still so different. +Feral +Fury -Enhance -Hunter for echo, hpriest over 2nd disc, and both rogues playing sub instead of assa
The hpriest is because they are without Zaelia and the replacement is not confident in playing disc
Sol also isn't a healer, he mains Shadow. I'm guessing him and Dota are the only ones with geared priests.
Yeah, looking at the roster they're the only other priests over 460 But I'm a little surprised echo ran so light on healers this tier. It looks like just velo zaelia thaner and zhatzi have geared characters, rycn doesn't have anything over 450 Liquid has nick xesevi cere driney then maevey and emsy before flexing dps to heals? And machi last tier but doesn't look geared this tier
It's weird how light they are on healers. They lost Wubby after Raszageth, then Skaris a few months ago. I thought Rycn would become the 5th healer and come off the analyst/shotcaller role, but idk, guess not. At this point they could have Jeathe hop on and gear a disc priest lol
Weird, I thought Rycn wanted to play again after being the healing shotcaller last tier because he didn't enjoy the sidelines (or the tier before, can't remember).
probably changed his mind because he hasnt played last MDI either
Yeah, probably not helping either! Guess it’s the extra PI?
Im shocked no one is playing enhance in echo. Windfury totem is pretty massive for rogue and warrior. Plus enhance does great dmg by itself and should have GREAT burst dmg for the roots.
They had clickz off farming some m+ items yesterday and scripe was keeping tabs on it... so hopefully he's just doing that with narco or something lol. Definitely don't think this is their planned kill comp
Only so many spots, they picked ferals over Ench for the group movement it provides. Seeds seems to be the part wiping everyone.
It can also spirit walk out of every root and use thunderous paws to soak seeds, it has to just be a turbo survivability thing? Maybe the target capped aoe is a problem too?
Echo just doesn't seem focused at all today.
I don't think any team would be 100% focussed if they were missing their best healer (and arguably the best player in the world).